{"id":152418,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152418","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e17344e6407b8e809d7f3a2603b6fafef9a002d94006c6d412c4d5d0c75dcc8d4630c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:04:48 - 10:13:59","影片長度":"00:09:11","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局、外交部報告「大陸領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化對我國安之影響」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-19"},"duration":551,"end_time":"2024-05-13T10:13:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T10:04:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":275,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（10時4分）謝謝主席。主席，有請國安局的徐副局長。"],["主席（馬委員文君）：請徐副局長。"],["徐副局長錫祥：委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：副局長，剛剛問到有關於外交的部分，因為今天時間比較短，我就直接進入主題，有關於520，現在我們所面臨的，除了在外交上面中國給我們不斷的穿小鞋，可能施加一些外交上面的壓力之外，對內的部分是我們比較可以有機會自己好好來守護的。畢竟外交的部分操之在別人的手上，包括中國同樣的也會利用金錢以及武力方面的勢力，給我們的友邦施加壓力，友邦也有自己內政的問題，我們能夠插手的部分不多。在我們自己國內的部分，現在有媒體不斷地釋出警訊，在520之前中國會重燃認知作戰，確實我們也看到許多來路不明的訊息是用所謂「打聽」、「傳聞」這樣的字眼所釋出的，不論透過什麼樣的管道釋出，但是都可以看得出來，這有可能都是中國在520之前的認知作戰。現在大家比較覺得國安局是不是有訊息的，就是駭客可不可能入侵我們的網路，造成一些重要網路的癱瘓，甚至於出現一些給予倒讚式的留言，又或者是說乾脆就滲入我們的基礎關鍵設施，來搞大停電等等。請問國安局現在有接收到相關的訊息嗎？做了哪些的準備？在可以透露的情況之下，可不可以讓本席瞭解？"],["徐副局長錫祥：謝謝委員。我想網駭結合認知作戰是中共常用的手法，我們國安局還是會蒐集國內的所有資訊，也統合所有的國安團隊密切注意這一方面的訊息，及時應處。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以我要問比較具體的問題，現在是否有關於網路或基礎設施的侵害或侵擾，意圖造成520之前或520當天，或者是在類似521這樣很接近520的時刻出現所謂的恐慌？你們有接受到這樣的情資嗎？有嗎？"],["徐副局長錫祥：我們都有在持續注意它的發展，但是目前都是一些比較臨時性的爭議的信息，我們也都會及時應處。"],["林委員楚茵：好。因為尤其像網路的部分，我們當然知道，在小英總統執政的這8年過程當中，包括總統府或一些重要的網站被攻擊的次數與日俱增，相信你們這邊都有持續地加以關注？"],["徐副局長錫祥：是。"],["林委員楚茵：好。另外，我比較在乎的是，我在今年3月的時候就曾經對國安局的蔡局長提出質疑，就是中國方方面面給臺灣壓力，尤其是在520前後，除了剛剛講的外交以及520的就職典禮之外，現在非常重要的就是以通促融，包括所謂的從地方包圍中央，現在地方政府已經成為中國滲入的窗口嗎？我們看一下，這是擷取自北竿鄉公所的網站，上面直接就說可以代辦福馬同城通卡，請問副局長，像這樣子連江縣政府的交旅局直接把資料交給中國，這個符合現行的法規嗎？請問你們在我3月質詢之後，有持續的監測或瞭解這個案子嗎？"],["徐副局長錫祥：謝謝委員。我們有掌握到目前申辦的人數大概有三千人，這部分我們有去瞭解，我想因為申辦……"],["林委員楚茵：請問這樣的作法合規嗎？合法嗎？"],["徐副局長錫祥：這個可能會涉及兩岸人民關係條例的問題，如果有合作行為的話，我們會把相關的資料交給……"],["林委員楚茵：請問這樣的「代辦」算不算合作？"],["徐副局長錫祥：相關的情資，我們會交給權責單位去認定。"],["林委員楚茵：所以會交給哪個權責單位？"],["徐副局長錫祥：陸委會。"],["林委員楚茵：如果是地方政府的部分，會交給陸委會？"],["徐副局長錫祥：是。"],["林委員楚茵：好。我們都知道對岸的政策就是以通促融，如果地方政府現在變成窗口的話，窗口一開，我必須說現在以地方來講的話，國民黨執政的縣市超過半數，如果此例一開，會不會變成不用經過中央核備，地方就可以，地方政府就變成中國滲透臺灣「以通促融」的窗口？你看縣長帶頭在臉書上直接說，馬祖鄉親一人一卡福馬同城通，就代為宣傳耶，那麼地方政府到中國去提出所有的惠臺政策以代辦，「代辦」算不算合作？如果這些事情沒有掌握的話，就會成為滲透的空間或是給予滲透的管道。我今天要特別質詢國安局是因為，依照兩岸人民關係條例第九條第四項，地方政府首長要進入中國必須要提報審查會，審查會當中，除了剛剛你提到的陸委會之外，法務部還有國安局也是審查會的成員，對不對？"],["徐副局長錫祥：是。"],["林委員楚茵：好。我們知道一旦地方政府的首長要去中國，他就要進入人事或是政風單位去填寫一個申請表格，申請表格中要填寫的項目只有停留的地點、行程還有訪問的單位，但是這會不會流於格式化？比如說像2月10日這個會面，或是說這樣的一個過程已經發生了，但是國安局有掌握嗎？這個會不會變成是「上有政策，下有對策」？副局長。"],["徐副局長錫祥：謝謝委員。這部分我們尊重業管單位所設計的表格，我們是提供一些情報資料而已……"],["林委員楚茵：我瞭解，所以我要問的下一個問題就是，在你所提報的資料當中，現在這樣的方式算不算是一種滲透的形式？國安局怎麼看？"],["徐副局長錫祥：我們都會注意相關的情資，對於這個行為我們也會深入的瞭解。"],["林委員楚茵：好。所以，這個行為對你們來說，我只有兩個問題：第一個是「代辦」算不算合作？算不算違反現行的兩岸人民關係條例？第二個，當然你說會交給業管單位，對國安局來講，你們就是在做所謂情資的蒐集，像這樣的方式有沒有可能單點突破之後持續擴大，變成未來地方政府可以用這樣的方式來做一個滲透？這會不會成為一個滲透的樣態？"],["徐副局長錫祥：我們都會深刻的瞭解，蒐集相關的資料。"],["林委員楚茵：副局長，我知道你不是主官，你很難回答，但是這部分如果連你都無法判定，那麼感覺接下來這就是一個破口，因為你只說「深入瞭解」，但是沒有給答案喔。"],["徐副局長錫祥：是，我們會深入瞭解，是。"],["林委員楚茵：我真的覺得如果你用這種態度來回應記者的問題跟提問，如果連這樣的行為算不算我們要防範的滲透的樣態，你都沒有答案，只有說要深入瞭解，那就表示我從3月的時候提問到現在，你們都沒有去瞭解，是這個意思嗎？"],["徐副局長錫祥：不是，因為我們對於對於正常的一個訪問，或者是邀……"],["林委員楚茵：我沒有要你制止正常的訪問，而是在訪問之後所衍生出來的這些作為，您認為沒有問題？或是您認為連它是不是一個滲透的樣態，你都無法回應或回答嗎？"],["徐副局長錫祥：因為有些會牽扯到個資的問題，這都有法律邊緣的問題，這些都是我們注意的內容。"],["林委員楚茵：好，時間到了，我不想占用後面的時間，但是我認為副局長你沒有聽清楚我要詢問的，就是這樣一個方式，對，他一切按照規矩來，但是在訪問之後所衍生出來的代辦方案等不等於合作？違不違反現行的法規？它會不會成為一個滲透的新樣態？"],["徐副局長錫祥：的確有那樣的風險存在，也是我們現在會去積極深入瞭解的地方。"],["林委員楚茵：好。這個部分我希望你們能夠將常見的合作行為類型化，並提出防制滲透樣態的小叮嚀，讓其他相關單位作為參考，好嗎？"],["徐副局長錫祥：好，謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請沈伯洋委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":384,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-19","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","徐巧芯","黃仁","林楚茵","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","王定宇","陳培瑜","林憶君","賴士葆","邱志偉","洪申翰","王鴻薇"],"page_start":329,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134401_00013"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局、外交部報告「大陸領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化對我國安之影響」，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1134401_00008"}},"transcript":{"id":"152418","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152418","tool":"pyannote","id":"152418-pyannote"},"job_id":"lWruViSc8KM8msFv","queued_at":"2024-05-31 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{\"word\": \"入\", \"start\": 447.601, \"end\": 447.621, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"瞭\", \"start\": 447.621, \"end\": 447.801, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 447.801, \"end\": 447.821, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 447.821, \"end\": 447.841, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 454.249, \"end\": 459.915, \"text\": \"我真的覺得如果你用這種態度來回應記者的問題跟提問如果連這樣的所謂防範滲透的樣態這算不算你都不可以有答案只有深入了解那就表示我從3月的時候提問到現在你們都沒有了解是這個意思嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 454.249, \"end\": 454.349, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 454.349, \"end\": 455.01, \"score\": 0.697}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 455.01, \"end\": 455.03, \"score\": 0.129}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 455.03, \"end\": 455.911, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 455.911, \"end\": 456.111, \"score\": 0.693}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 456.111, \"end\": 456.391, \"score\": 0.731}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 456.391, \"end\": 456.552, \"score\": 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\"位\", \"start\": 548.726, \"end\": 548.866, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 548.866, \"end\": 548.886, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 548.886, \"end\": 548.966, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 548.966, \"end\": 548.986, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 548.986, \"end\": 549.006, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 549.006, \"end\": 549.026, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,290 --> 00:00:05,050\n謝謝主席主席有請國安局的徐副局長請徐副局長\n\n2\n00:00:11,171 --> 00:00:38,247\n謝謝主席委員好副局長剛剛問到的是有關於外交的部分那所以說我就直接因為今天時間比較短我就直接進入有關於520現在我們所面臨的除了在外交上面中國給我們不斷的穿小鞋可能給予一些外交上面的壓力之外在對內的部分是我們比較可以有機會我們自己來好好守護的因為畢竟外交的部分操之在別人的手上包括中國同樣的\n\n3\n00:00:39,428 --> 00:00:39,528\n林楚茵\n\n4\n00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:26,950\n自演所出來的訊息不論是透過什麼樣的管道釋出但是都可以看得出來這有可能都是中國在520之前的認知作戰但是現在大家比較覺得國安局是不是有訊息的那就是駭客可不可能入侵我們的網路來造成一些重要的網路的癱瘓甚至出現一些\n\n5\n00:01:28,371 --> 00:01:43,333\n給予倒戰式的這樣的留言又或者是說乾脆就設入我們的基礎的關鍵設施來搞大停電阿等等請問國安局現在有接收到相關的訊息嗎?那麼做了哪些的準備?在可以透露的情況之下可不可以讓本席了解?\n\n6\n00:01:44,601 --> 00:02:00,308\n謝謝委員,我想妄害的結合任職作戰是中共常用的手法,那我們國安局還是會收集我們國內的所有的資訊,也統合所有的國安團隊密切的注意這一方面的訊息及時應處。\n\n7\n00:02:01,829 --> 00:02:05,251\n好所以我要問的就是比較具體的問現在有關於網路或基礎設施這樣的所謂侵害或侵擾造成520之前或520當天或者是521這樣很接近520的時刻出現所謂恐慌你們有接受到這樣的情資嗎?有嗎?\n\n8\n00:02:22,776 --> 00:02:36,275\n我們都有在持續注意它的發展,但是目前都是比較臨時性的一些爭議的訊息,我們也都會及時應處\n\n9\n00:02:40,100 --> 00:02:56,734\n好因為尤其是上網路的這個部分我們當然知道其實在小英總統執政的這8年過程當中包括總統府或重要的一些網站被攻擊的次數是與日俱增那麼相信你們在這邊都有持續的做一個關注是\n\n10\n00:02:57,495 --> 00:03:09,868\n好,另外其實我比較在乎的是我在今年3月的時候就曾經對國安局的蔡局長提出質疑就是中國方方面面給台灣壓力尤其是在520前後除了剛剛講到的外交除了講到520就職典禮之外那麼現在最重要的就是\n\n11\n00:03:14,272 --> 00:03:26,466\n以通促融包括這種所謂從地方包圍中央現在的地方政府已經成為了中國滲入的窗口嗎?我們來看一下我這是擷取至北竿相公所的網站直接就說可以代辦斧馬同城通我請問副局長\n\n12\n00:03:35,161 --> 00:03:47,068\n像這樣子連江縣政府的焦慮局直接把資料交給中國這個符合現行的法規嗎?請問你們在我3月質詢之後有持續的監測或了解這個案子嗎?\n\n13\n00:03:48,969 --> 00:04:12,998\n謝謝委員,我們有掌握到目前大概申辦人數有三千人,這個我們有去了解請問這樣的做法合規嗎?合法嗎?這個可能會有兩岸人民關係條例的問題,如果有合作的行為的話,可能會,我們會把相關的資料發給那請問這樣的代辦算不算合作?\n\n14\n00:04:14,108 --> 00:04:33,907\n這個相關的情節的話,我們會交給權責單位去做認定。所以會交給哪個權責單位?如果是地方政府的部分,交給陸委會?是。好,因為我們都知道這個以通促融,如果地方政府現在變成窗口的話,窗口一開,我必須現在以地方來講的話,國民黨的執政縣市超過半數。\n\n15\n00:04:38,271 --> 00:04:51,816\n如果此例一開,會不會變成是不用核備中央地方就可以,地方政府就變成了中國滲透台灣以通促融的一個窗口你看喔,縣長是帶頭直接在臉書上面就直接說馬祖鄉親,一人一卡,駙馬同城通,這代為宣傳耶那麼地方政府到中國去提出的所有的會台政策以代辦\n\n16\n00:05:04,660 --> 00:05:31,735\n代辦算不算合作如果說這些東西沒有掌握的話就會成為滲透的空間或者是就給予了這樣的一個管道我要我特別今天質詢國安局的部分是因為基照兩岸人民關係條例的第9條第4項地方政府的首長要進入中國必須要提報一個審查會審查會當中當然你提到的陸委會之外法務部還有國安局其實也是審查會的\n\n17\n00:05:33,476 --> 00:05:52,682\n成員對不對是好那我們知道如果一旦地方政府的首長要到中國去他就會進入一個他們人事或是政風單位會進入一個所謂申請的表格但是這個申請表格只說停留的地點行程還有訪問的單位但是這會不會流於格式化會不會流於格式化那麼比如說像這一個2月10號的這個會面或者是說這樣的一個過程\n\n18\n00:06:02,984 --> 00:06:31,016\n已經發生了但是國安局有掌握嗎?這個會不會變成是上有政策下有對策?副局長謝謝委員這個我們要尊重我們業管單位他們所設計的表格我們是提供一些情報的資料而已我了解所以這是我要問的下一個問題就是如果在你所提報的資料當中以現在這樣的方式算不算是已經一種滲透的形式國安局怎麼看?\n\n19\n00:06:32,233 --> 00:06:50,032\n我們都會注意相關的情資那對於這個行為我們也會深入的了解好所以這個行為對你們來說我只有兩個問題第一個是代辦算不算合作算不算違反了現行的兩岸人民關係條例第二個當然你說你會交給夜館單位那麼對國安局來講你們就是在\n\n20\n00:06:53,757 --> 00:07:05,591\n所謂的去做情資的收集那麼像這樣的方式有沒有可能單點突破之後持續擴大變成是未來地方政府可以用這樣的方式來做一個滲透這會不會成為一個滲透的樣態\n\n21\n00:07:08,783 --> 00:07:27,841\n我們都會深刻的瞭解,收集相關的資料好,我身為副局長,我知道你不是主觀啦,你很難回答啦但是這個如果連你都無法判定,那麼接下來就是感覺上這就是一個破口喔因為你只說深入瞭解喔,但是沒有給答案喔是,我們會深入瞭解,是\n\n22\n00:07:34,249 --> 00:07:39,915\n我真的覺得如果你用這種態度來回應記者的問題跟提問如果連這樣的所謂防範滲透的樣態這算不算你都不可以有答案只有深入了解那就表示我從3月的時候提問到現在你們都沒有了解是這個意思嗎\n\n23\n00:07:52,910 --> 00:07:57,034\n我沒有要你制止正常的訪問,而是在訪問之後所衍生出來的這樣的一個作為\n\n24\n00:08:09,366 --> 00:08:23,161\n您認為沒有問題或是您認為它連是一個滲透的樣態你都無法回應或回答嗎?因為有些是會牽扯到各自的問題這個都是有法律邊緣的問題這個都是我們注意的內容\n\n25\n00:08:26,620 --> 00:08:51,213\n時間到我不想占用後面的時間但是我認為副局長你沒有聽清楚我要詢問的就是這樣一個方式對他一切按照規矩來但是他在訪問之後他所衍生出來的合作方案代辦方案等不等於合作違不違反現行的法規他會不會成為一個滲透的新樣態\n\n26\n00:08:55,476 --> 00:09:09,026\n這的確有那個風險存在也是我們現在會去積極深入了解的地方好我希望這個部分你們能夠做出一些小叮嚀做出一些樣態的形式讓其他相關的單位作為參考好嗎好謝謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n290\t5050\t謝謝主席主席有請國安局的徐副局長請徐副局長\n11171\t38247\t謝謝主席 委員好副局長剛剛問到的是有關於外交的部分那所以說我就直接因為今天時間比較短我就直接進入有關於520現在我們所面臨的除了在外交上面中國給我們不斷的穿小鞋可能給予一些外交上面的壓力之外在對內的部分是我們比較可以有機會我們自己來好好守護的因為畢竟外交的部分操之在別人的手上包括中國同樣的\n39428\t39528\t林楚茵\n66240\t86950\t自演所出來的訊息不論是透過什麼樣的管道釋出但是都可以看得出來這有可能都是中國在520之前的認知作戰但是現在大家比較覺得國安局是不是有訊息的那就是駭客可不可能入侵我們的網路來造成一些重要的網路的癱瘓甚至出現一些\n88371\t103333\t給予倒戰式的這樣的留言又或者是說乾脆就設入我們的基礎的關鍵設施來搞大停電阿等等請問國安局現在有接收到相關的訊息嗎?那麼做了哪些的準備?在可以透露的情況之下可不可以讓本席了解?\n104601\t120308\t謝謝委員,我想妄害的結合任職作戰是中共常用的手法,那我們國安局還是會收集我們國內的所有的資訊,也統合所有的國安團隊密切的注意這一方面的訊息及時應處。\n121829\t125251\t好所以我要問的就是比較具體的問現在有關於網路或基礎設施這樣的所謂侵害或侵擾造成520之前或520當天或者是521這樣很接近520的時刻出現所謂恐慌你們有接受到這樣的情資嗎?有嗎?\n142776\t156275\t我們都有在持續注意它的發展,但是目前都是比較臨時性的一些爭議的訊息,我們也都會及時應處\n160100\t176734\t好 因為尤其是上網路的這個部分我們當然知道其實在小英總統執政的這8年過程當中包括總統府或重要的一些網站被攻擊的次數是與日俱增那麼相信你們在這邊都有持續的做一個關注是\n177495\t189868\t好,另外其實我比較在乎的是我在今年3月的時候就曾經對國安局的蔡局長提出質疑就是中國方方面面給台灣壓力尤其是在520前後除了剛剛講到的外交除了講到520就職典禮之外那麼現在最重要的就是\n194272\t206466\t以通促融包括這種所謂從地方包圍中央現在的地方政府已經成為了中國滲入的窗口嗎?我們來看一下我這是擷取至北竿相公所的網站直接就說可以代辦斧馬同城通我請問副局長\n215161\t227068\t像這樣子連江縣政府的焦慮局直接把資料交給中國這個符合現行的法規嗎?請問你們在我3月質詢之後有持續的監測或了解這個案子嗎?\n228969\t252998\t謝謝委員,我們有掌握到目前大概申辦人數有三千人,這個我們有去了解請問這樣的做法合規嗎?合法嗎?這個可能會有兩岸人民關係條例的問題,如果有合作的行為的話,可能會,我們會把相關的資料發給那請問這樣的代辦算不算合作?\n254108\t273907\t這個相關的情節的話,我們會交給權責單位去做認定。所以會交給哪個權責單位?如果是地方政府的部分,交給陸委會?是。好,因為我們都知道這個以通促融,如果地方政府現在變成窗口的話,窗口一開,我必須現在以地方來講的話,國民黨的執政縣市超過半數。\n278271\t291816\t如果此例一開,會不會變成是不用核備中央地方就可以,地方政府就變成了中國滲透台灣以通促融的一個窗口你看喔,縣長是帶頭直接在臉書上面就直接說馬祖鄉親,一人一卡,駙馬同城通,這代為宣傳耶那麼地方政府到中國去提出的所有的會台政策以代辦\n304660\t331735\t代辦算不算合作如果說這些東西沒有掌握的話就會成為滲透的空間或者是就給予了這樣的一個管道我要我特別今天質詢國安局的部分是因為基照兩岸人民關係條例的第9條第4項地方政府的首長要進入中國必須要提報一個審查會審查會當中當然你提到的陸委會之外法務部還有國安局其實也是審查會的\n333476\t352682\t成員對不對是好那我們知道如果一旦地方政府的首長要到中國去他就會進入一個他們人事或是政風單位會進入一個所謂申請的表格但是這個申請表格只說停留的地點行程還有訪問的單位但是這會不會流於格式化會不會流於格式化那麼比如說像這一個2月10號的這個會面或者是說這樣的一個過程\n362984\t391016\t已經發生了但是國安局有掌握嗎?這個會不會變成是上有政策下有對策?副局長謝謝委員這個我們要尊重我們業管單位他們所設計的表格我們是提供一些情報的資料而已我了解所以這是我要問的下一個問題就是如果在你所提報的資料當中以現在這樣的方式算不算是已經一種滲透的形式國安局怎麼看?\n392233\t410032\t我們都會注意相關的情資那對於這個行為我們也會深入的了解好所以這個行為對你們來說我只有兩個問題第一個是代辦算不算合作算不算違反了現行的兩岸人民關係條例第二個當然你說你會交給夜館單位那麼對國安局來講你們就是在\n413757\t425591\t所謂的去做情資的收集那麼像這樣的方式有沒有可能單點突破之後持續擴大變成是未來地方政府可以用這樣的方式來做一個滲透這會不會成為一個滲透的樣態\n428783\t447841\t我們都會深刻的瞭解,收集相關的資料好,我身為副局長,我知道你不是主觀啦,你很難回答啦但是這個如果連你都無法判定,那麼接下來就是感覺上這就是一個破口喔因為你只說深入瞭解喔,但是沒有給答案喔是,我們會深入瞭解,是\n454249\t459915\t我真的覺得如果你用這種態度來回應記者的問題跟提問如果連這樣的所謂防範滲透的樣態這算不算你都不可以有答案只有深入了解那就表示我從3月的時候提問到現在你們都沒有了解是這個意思嗎\n472910\t477034\t我沒有要你制止正常的訪問,而是在訪問之後所衍生出來的這樣的一個作為\n489366\t503161\t您認為沒有問題或是您認為它連是一個滲透的樣態你都無法回應或回答嗎?因為有些是會牽扯到各自的問題這個都是有法律邊緣的問題這個都是我們注意的內容\n506620\t531213\t時間到我不想占用後面的時間但是我認為副局長你沒有聽清楚我要詢問的就是這樣一個方式對他一切按照規矩來但是他在訪問之後他所衍生出來的合作方案代辦方案等不等於合作違不違反現行的法規他會不會成為一個滲透的新樣態\n535476\t549026\t這的確有那個風險存在也是我們現在會去積極深入了解的地方好我希望這個部分你們能夠做出一些小叮嚀做出一些樣態的形式讓其他相關的單位作為參考好嗎好謝謝謝委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席主席有請國安局的徐副局長請徐副局長\n謝謝主席 委員好副局長剛剛問到的是有關於外交的部分那所以說我就直接因為今天時間比較短我就直接進入有關於520現在我們所面臨的除了在外交上面中國給我們不斷的穿小鞋可能給予一些外交上面的壓力之外在對內的部分是我們比較可以有機會我們自己來好好守護的因為畢竟外交的部分操之在別人的手上包括中國同樣的\n林楚茵\n自演所出來的訊息不論是透過什麼樣的管道釋出但是都可以看得出來這有可能都是中國在520之前的認知作戰但是現在大家比較覺得國安局是不是有訊息的那就是駭客可不可能入侵我們的網路來造成一些重要的網路的癱瘓甚至出現一些\n給予倒戰式的這樣的留言又或者是說乾脆就設入我們的基礎的關鍵設施來搞大停電阿等等請問國安局現在有接收到相關的訊息嗎?那麼做了哪些的準備?在可以透露的情況之下可不可以讓本席了解?\n謝謝委員,我想妄害的結合任職作戰是中共常用的手法,那我們國安局還是會收集我們國內的所有的資訊,也統合所有的國安團隊密切的注意這一方面的訊息及時應處。\n好所以我要問的就是比較具體的問現在有關於網路或基礎設施這樣的所謂侵害或侵擾造成520之前或520當天或者是521這樣很接近520的時刻出現所謂恐慌你們有接受到這樣的情資嗎?有嗎?\n我們都有在持續注意它的發展,但是目前都是比較臨時性的一些爭議的訊息,我們也都會及時應處\n好 因為尤其是上網路的這個部分我們當然知道其實在小英總統執政的這8年過程當中包括總統府或重要的一些網站被攻擊的次數是與日俱增那麼相信你們在這邊都有持續的做一個關注是\n好,另外其實我比較在乎的是我在今年3月的時候就曾經對國安局的蔡局長提出質疑就是中國方方面面給台灣壓力尤其是在520前後除了剛剛講到的外交除了講到520就職典禮之外那麼現在最重要的就是\n以通促融包括這種所謂從地方包圍中央現在的地方政府已經成為了中國滲入的窗口嗎?我們來看一下我這是擷取至北竿相公所的網站直接就說可以代辦斧馬同城通我請問副局長\n像這樣子連江縣政府的焦慮局直接把資料交給中國這個符合現行的法規嗎?請問你們在我3月質詢之後有持續的監測或了解這個案子嗎?\n謝謝委員,我們有掌握到目前大概申辦人數有三千人,這個我們有去了解請問這樣的做法合規嗎?合法嗎?這個可能會有兩岸人民關係條例的問題,如果有合作的行為的話,可能會,我們會把相關的資料發給那請問這樣的代辦算不算合作?\n這個相關的情節的話,我們會交給權責單位去做認定。所以會交給哪個權責單位?如果是地方政府的部分,交給陸委會?是。好,因為我們都知道這個以通促融,如果地方政府現在變成窗口的話,窗口一開,我必須現在以地方來講的話,國民黨的執政縣市超過半數。\n如果此例一開,會不會變成是不用核備中央地方就可以,地方政府就變成了中國滲透台灣以通促融的一個窗口你看喔,縣長是帶頭直接在臉書上面就直接說馬祖鄉親,一人一卡,駙馬同城通,這代為宣傳耶那麼地方政府到中國去提出的所有的會台政策以代辦\n代辦算不算合作如果說這些東西沒有掌握的話就會成為滲透的空間或者是就給予了這樣的一個管道我要我特別今天質詢國安局的部分是因為基照兩岸人民關係條例的第9條第4項地方政府的首長要進入中國必須要提報一個審查會審查會當中當然你提到的陸委會之外法務部還有國安局其實也是審查會的\n成員對不對是好那我們知道如果一旦地方政府的首長要到中國去他就會進入一個他們人事或是政風單位會進入一個所謂申請的表格但是這個申請表格只說停留的地點行程還有訪問的單位但是這會不會流於格式化會不會流於格式化那麼比如說像這一個2月10號的這個會面或者是說這樣的一個過程\n已經發生了但是國安局有掌握嗎?這個會不會變成是上有政策下有對策?副局長謝謝委員這個我們要尊重我們業管單位他們所設計的表格我們是提供一些情報的資料而已我了解所以這是我要問的下一個問題就是如果在你所提報的資料當中以現在這樣的方式算不算是已經一種滲透的形式國安局怎麼看?\n我們都會注意相關的情資那對於這個行為我們也會深入的了解好所以這個行為對你們來說我只有兩個問題第一個是代辦算不算合作算不算違反了現行的兩岸人民關係條例第二個當然你說你會交給夜館單位那麼對國安局來講你們就是在\n所謂的去做情資的收集那麼像這樣的方式有沒有可能單點突破之後持續擴大變成是未來地方政府可以用這樣的方式來做一個滲透這會不會成為一個滲透的樣態\n我們都會深刻的瞭解,收集相關的資料好,我身為副局長,我知道你不是主觀啦,你很難回答啦但是這個如果連你都無法判定,那麼接下來就是感覺上這就是一個破口喔因為你只說深入瞭解喔,但是沒有給答案喔是,我們會深入瞭解,是\n我真的覺得如果你用這種態度來回應記者的問題跟提問如果連這樣的所謂防範滲透的樣態這算不算你都不可以有答案只有深入了解那就表示我從3月的時候提問到現在你們都沒有了解是這個意思嗎\n我沒有要你制止正常的訪問,而是在訪問之後所衍生出來的這樣的一個作為\n您認為沒有問題或是您認為它連是一個滲透的樣態你都無法回應或回答嗎?因為有些是會牽扯到各自的問題這個都是有法律邊緣的問題這個都是我們注意的內容\n時間到我不想占用後面的時間但是我認為副局長你沒有聽清楚我要詢問的就是這樣一個方式對他一切按照規矩來但是他在訪問之後他所衍生出來的合作方案代辦方案等不等於合作違不違反現行的法規他會不會成為一個滲透的新樣態\n這的確有那個風險存在也是我們現在會去積極深入了解的地方好我希望這個部分你們能夠做出一些小叮嚀做出一些樣態的形式讓其他相關的單位作為參考好嗎好謝謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.290 --> 00:05.050\n謝謝主席主席有請國安局的徐副局長請徐副局長\n\n00:11.171 --> 00:38.247\n謝謝主席委員好副局長剛剛問到的是有關於外交的部分那所以說我就直接因為今天時間比較短我就直接進入有關於520現在我們所面臨的除了在外交上面中國給我們不斷的穿小鞋可能給予一些外交上面的壓力之外在對內的部分是我們比較可以有機會我們自己來好好守護的因為畢竟外交的部分操之在別人的手上包括中國同樣的\n\n00:39.428 --> 00:39.528\n林楚茵\n\n01:06.240 --> 01:26.950\n自演所出來的訊息不論是透過什麼樣的管道釋出但是都可以看得出來這有可能都是中國在520之前的認知作戰但是現在大家比較覺得國安局是不是有訊息的那就是駭客可不可能入侵我們的網路來造成一些重要的網路的癱瘓甚至出現一些\n\n01:28.371 --> 01:43.333\n給予倒戰式的這樣的留言又或者是說乾脆就設入我們的基礎的關鍵設施來搞大停電阿等等請問國安局現在有接收到相關的訊息嗎?那麼做了哪些的準備?在可以透露的情況之下可不可以讓本席了解?\n\n01:44.601 --> 02:00.308\n謝謝委員,我想妄害的結合任職作戰是中共常用的手法,那我們國安局還是會收集我們國內的所有的資訊,也統合所有的國安團隊密切的注意這一方面的訊息及時應處。\n\n02:01.829 --> 02:05.251\n好所以我要問的就是比較具體的問現在有關於網路或基礎設施這樣的所謂侵害或侵擾造成520之前或520當天或者是521這樣很接近520的時刻出現所謂恐慌你們有接受到這樣的情資嗎?有嗎?\n\n02:22.776 --> 02:36.275\n我們都有在持續注意它的發展,但是目前都是比較臨時性的一些爭議的訊息,我們也都會及時應處\n\n02:40.100 --> 02:56.734\n好因為尤其是上網路的這個部分我們當然知道其實在小英總統執政的這8年過程當中包括總統府或重要的一些網站被攻擊的次數是與日俱增那麼相信你們在這邊都有持續的做一個關注是\n\n02:57.495 --> 03:09.868\n好,另外其實我比較在乎的是我在今年3月的時候就曾經對國安局的蔡局長提出質疑就是中國方方面面給台灣壓力尤其是在520前後除了剛剛講到的外交除了講到520就職典禮之外那麼現在最重要的就是\n\n03:14.272 --> 03:26.466\n以通促融包括這種所謂從地方包圍中央現在的地方政府已經成為了中國滲入的窗口嗎?我們來看一下我這是擷取至北竿相公所的網站直接就說可以代辦斧馬同城通我請問副局長\n\n03:35.161 --> 03:47.068\n像這樣子連江縣政府的焦慮局直接把資料交給中國這個符合現行的法規嗎?請問你們在我3月質詢之後有持續的監測或了解這個案子嗎?\n\n03:48.969 --> 04:12.998\n謝謝委員,我們有掌握到目前大概申辦人數有三千人,這個我們有去了解請問這樣的做法合規嗎?合法嗎?這個可能會有兩岸人民關係條例的問題,如果有合作的行為的話,可能會,我們會把相關的資料發給那請問這樣的代辦算不算合作?\n\n04:14.108 --> 04:33.907\n這個相關的情節的話,我們會交給權責單位去做認定。所以會交給哪個權責單位?如果是地方政府的部分,交給陸委會?是。好,因為我們都知道這個以通促融,如果地方政府現在變成窗口的話,窗口一開,我必須現在以地方來講的話,國民黨的執政縣市超過半數。\n\n04:38.271 --> 04:51.816\n如果此例一開,會不會變成是不用核備中央地方就可以,地方政府就變成了中國滲透台灣以通促融的一個窗口你看喔,縣長是帶頭直接在臉書上面就直接說馬祖鄉親,一人一卡,駙馬同城通,這代為宣傳耶那麼地方政府到中國去提出的所有的會台政策以代辦\n\n05:04.660 --> 05:31.735\n代辦算不算合作如果說這些東西沒有掌握的話就會成為滲透的空間或者是就給予了這樣的一個管道我要我特別今天質詢國安局的部分是因為基照兩岸人民關係條例的第9條第4項地方政府的首長要進入中國必須要提報一個審查會審查會當中當然你提到的陸委會之外法務部還有國安局其實也是審查會的\n\n05:33.476 --> 05:52.682\n成員對不對是好那我們知道如果一旦地方政府的首長要到中國去他就會進入一個他們人事或是政風單位會進入一個所謂申請的表格但是這個申請表格只說停留的地點行程還有訪問的單位但是這會不會流於格式化會不會流於格式化那麼比如說像這一個2月10號的這個會面或者是說這樣的一個過程\n\n06:02.984 --> 06:31.016\n已經發生了但是國安局有掌握嗎?這個會不會變成是上有政策下有對策?副局長謝謝委員這個我們要尊重我們業管單位他們所設計的表格我們是提供一些情報的資料而已我了解所以這是我要問的下一個問題就是如果在你所提報的資料當中以現在這樣的方式算不算是已經一種滲透的形式國安局怎麼看?\n\n06:32.233 --> 06:50.032\n我們都會注意相關的情資那對於這個行為我們也會深入的了解好所以這個行為對你們來說我只有兩個問題第一個是代辦算不算合作算不算違反了現行的兩岸人民關係條例第二個當然你說你會交給夜館單位那麼對國安局來講你們就是在\n\n06:53.757 --> 07:05.591\n所謂的去做情資的收集那麼像這樣的方式有沒有可能單點突破之後持續擴大變成是未來地方政府可以用這樣的方式來做一個滲透這會不會成為一個滲透的樣態\n\n07:08.783 --> 07:27.841\n我們都會深刻的瞭解,收集相關的資料好,我身為副局長,我知道你不是主觀啦,你很難回答啦但是這個如果連你都無法判定,那麼接下來就是感覺上這就是一個破口喔因為你只說深入瞭解喔,但是沒有給答案喔是,我們會深入瞭解,是\n\n07:34.249 --> 07:39.915\n我真的覺得如果你用這種態度來回應記者的問題跟提問如果連這樣的所謂防範滲透的樣態這算不算你都不可以有答案只有深入了解那就表示我從3月的時候提問到現在你們都沒有了解是這個意思嗎\n\n07:52.910 --> 07:57.034\n我沒有要你制止正常的訪問,而是在訪問之後所衍生出來的這樣的一個作為\n\n08:09.366 --> 08:23.161\n您認為沒有問題或是您認為它連是一個滲透的樣態你都無法回應或回答嗎?因為有些是會牽扯到各自的問題這個都是有法律邊緣的問題這個都是我們注意的內容\n\n08:26.620 --> 08:51.213\n時間到我不想占用後面的時間但是我認為副局長你沒有聽清楚我要詢問的就是這樣一個方式對他一切按照規矩來但是他在訪問之後他所衍生出來的合作方案代辦方案等不等於合作違不違反現行的法規他會不會成為一個滲透的新樣態\n\n08:55.476 --> 09:09.026\n這的確有那個風險存在也是我們現在會去積極深入了解的地方好我希望這個部分你們能夠做出一些小叮嚀做出一些樣態的形式讓其他相關的單位作為參考好嗎好謝謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.29,"end":5.05,"text":"謝謝主席主席有請國安局的徐副局長請徐副局長"},{"start":11.171,"end":38.247,"text":"謝謝主席 委員好副局長剛剛問到的是有關於外交的部分那所以說我就直接因為今天時間比較短我就直接進入有關於520現在我們所面臨的除了在外交上面中國給我們不斷的穿小鞋可能給予一些外交上面的壓力之外在對內的部分是我們比較可以有機會我們自己來好好守護的因為畢竟外交的部分操之在別人的手上包括中國同樣的"},{"start":39.428,"end":39.528,"text":"林楚茵"},{"start":66.24,"end":86.95,"text":"自演所出來的訊息不論是透過什麼樣的管道釋出但是都可以看得出來這有可能都是中國在520之前的認知作戰但是現在大家比較覺得國安局是不是有訊息的那就是駭客可不可能入侵我們的網路來造成一些重要的網路的癱瘓甚至出現一些"},{"start":88.371,"end":103.333,"text":"給予倒戰式的這樣的留言又或者是說乾脆就設入我們的基礎的關鍵設施來搞大停電阿等等請問國安局現在有接收到相關的訊息嗎?那麼做了哪些的準備?在可以透露的情況之下可不可以讓本席了解?"},{"start":104.601,"end":120.308,"text":"謝謝委員,我想妄害的結合任職作戰是中共常用的手法,那我們國安局還是會收集我們國內的所有的資訊,也統合所有的國安團隊密切的注意這一方面的訊息及時應處。"},{"start":121.829,"end":125.251,"text":"好所以我要問的就是比較具體的問現在有關於網路或基礎設施這樣的所謂侵害或侵擾造成520之前或520當天或者是521這樣很接近520的時刻出現所謂恐慌你們有接受到這樣的情資嗎?有嗎?"},{"start":142.776,"end":156.275,"text":"我們都有在持續注意它的發展,但是目前都是比較臨時性的一些爭議的訊息,我們也都會及時應處"},{"start":160.1,"end":176.734,"text":"好 因為尤其是上網路的這個部分我們當然知道其實在小英總統執政的這8年過程當中包括總統府或重要的一些網站被攻擊的次數是與日俱增那麼相信你們在這邊都有持續的做一個關注是"},{"start":177.495,"end":189.868,"text":"好,另外其實我比較在乎的是我在今年3月的時候就曾經對國安局的蔡局長提出質疑就是中國方方面面給台灣壓力尤其是在520前後除了剛剛講到的外交除了講到520就職典禮之外那麼現在最重要的就是"},{"start":194.272,"end":206.466,"text":"以通促融包括這種所謂從地方包圍中央現在的地方政府已經成為了中國滲入的窗口嗎?我們來看一下我這是擷取至北竿相公所的網站直接就說可以代辦斧馬同城通我請問副局長"},{"start":215.161,"end":227.068,"text":"像這樣子連江縣政府的焦慮局直接把資料交給中國這個符合現行的法規嗎?請問你們在我3月質詢之後有持續的監測或了解這個案子嗎?"},{"start":228.969,"end":252.998,"text":"謝謝委員,我們有掌握到目前大概申辦人數有三千人,這個我們有去了解請問這樣的做法合規嗎?合法嗎?這個可能會有兩岸人民關係條例的問題,如果有合作的行為的話,可能會,我們會把相關的資料發給那請問這樣的代辦算不算合作?"},{"start":254.108,"end":273.907,"text":"這個相關的情節的話,我們會交給權責單位去做認定。所以會交給哪個權責單位?如果是地方政府的部分,交給陸委會?是。好,因為我們都知道這個以通促融,如果地方政府現在變成窗口的話,窗口一開,我必須現在以地方來講的話,國民黨的執政縣市超過半數。"},{"start":278.271,"end":291.816,"text":"如果此例一開,會不會變成是不用核備中央地方就可以,地方政府就變成了中國滲透台灣以通促融的一個窗口你看喔,縣長是帶頭直接在臉書上面就直接說馬祖鄉親,一人一卡,駙馬同城通,這代為宣傳耶那麼地方政府到中國去提出的所有的會台政策以代辦"},{"start":304.66,"end":331.735,"text":"代辦算不算合作如果說這些東西沒有掌握的話就會成為滲透的空間或者是就給予了這樣的一個管道我要我特別今天質詢國安局的部分是因為基照兩岸人民關係條例的第9條第4項地方政府的首長要進入中國必須要提報一個審查會審查會當中當然你提到的陸委會之外法務部還有國安局其實也是審查會的"},{"start":333.476,"end":352.682,"text":"成員對不對是好那我們知道如果一旦地方政府的首長要到中國去他就會進入一個他們人事或是政風單位會進入一個所謂申請的表格但是這個申請表格只說停留的地點行程還有訪問的單位但是這會不會流於格式化會不會流於格式化那麼比如說像這一個2月10號的這個會面或者是說這樣的一個過程"},{"start":362.984,"end":391.016,"text":"已經發生了但是國安局有掌握嗎?這個會不會變成是上有政策下有對策?副局長謝謝委員這個我們要尊重我們業管單位他們所設計的表格我們是提供一些情報的資料而已我了解所以這是我要問的下一個問題就是如果在你所提報的資料當中以現在這樣的方式算不算是已經一種滲透的形式國安局怎麼看?"},{"start":392.233,"end":410.032,"text":"我們都會注意相關的情資那對於這個行為我們也會深入的了解好所以這個行為對你們來說我只有兩個問題第一個是代辦算不算合作算不算違反了現行的兩岸人民關係條例第二個當然你說你會交給夜館單位那麼對國安局來講你們就是在"},{"start":413.757,"end":425.591,"text":"所謂的去做情資的收集那麼像這樣的方式有沒有可能單點突破之後持續擴大變成是未來地方政府可以用這樣的方式來做一個滲透這會不會成為一個滲透的樣態"},{"start":428.783,"end":447.841,"text":"我們都會深刻的瞭解,收集相關的資料好,我身為副局長,我知道你不是主觀啦,你很難回答啦但是這個如果連你都無法判定,那麼接下來就是感覺上這就是一個破口喔因為你只說深入瞭解喔,但是沒有給答案喔是,我們會深入瞭解,是"},{"start":454.249,"end":459.915,"text":"我真的覺得如果你用這種態度來回應記者的問題跟提問如果連這樣的所謂防範滲透的樣態這算不算你都不可以有答案只有深入了解那就表示我從3月的時候提問到現在你們都沒有了解是這個意思嗎"},{"start":472.91,"end":477.034,"text":"我沒有要你制止正常的訪問,而是在訪問之後所衍生出來的這樣的一個作為"},{"start":489.366,"end":503.161,"text":"您認為沒有問題或是您認為它連是一個滲透的樣態你都無法回應或回答嗎?因為有些是會牽扯到各自的問題這個都是有法律邊緣的問題這個都是我們注意的內容"},{"start":506.62,"end":531.213,"text":"時間到我不想占用後面的時間但是我認為副局長你沒有聽清楚我要詢問的就是這樣一個方式對他一切按照規矩來但是他在訪問之後他所衍生出來的合作方案代辦方案等不等於合作違不違反現行的法規他會不會成為一個滲透的新樣態"},{"start":535.476,"end":549.026,"text":"這的確有那個風險存在也是我們現在會去積極深入了解的地方好我希望這個部分你們能夠做出一些小叮嚀做出一些樣態的形式讓其他相關的單位作為參考好嗎好謝謝謝委員"}]}}}}