{"id":152423,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152423","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e17347f233f81b0019ddaa2603b6fafef9a002d94006c6d412c4d92745e27300ebd055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:14:19 - 10:23:47","影片長度":"00:09:28","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局、外交部報告「大陸領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化對我國安之影響」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-19"},"duration":568,"end_time":"2024-05-13T10:23:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T10:14:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":313,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時14分）有請田次長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：請田次長。"],["田次長中光：委員早。"],["沈委員伯洋：早。剛剛楚茵委員有提到國安相關的事項，本來今天也想問，但是我覺得這部分我們可能留待，剛剛主席也有提到，搞不好這幾天有機會再邀國安單位來，所以我今天針對外交的部分來問。第一個我先講一下，因為最近風風雨雨，本來謠傳說今天有很多委員想要來針對外交部提問，但是可能因為今天部長沒來，我猜可能會到禮拜三、禮拜四。但不管怎樣，先定調一下，我覺得這整件事情其實非常單純，次長可以看到我這邊有整理幾個我們刑法目前的規定，第一百零九條是針對國防相關的文書；第一百三十二條，就是這次比較爭議性的、國防以外的秘密；第三百十八條是與公務員有關，但是為工商秘密。","說真的行政跟立法都有其分界，就好像今天行政上有行政的特權，但不可能說行政的特權可以殺人放火；立法委員當然也有我們自己的權力，但也不代表立法委員有可以把密件拿出來透露的權力，這其實是兩件事情。我想也藉由這個機會告訴大家，像第三百十八條，公務員洩漏的時候，它限定的並不是所有的秘密，是限定在工商秘密。而第一百零九條的文字是「國防『應秘密』」，也就是目前在我們刑法的規範上面，其實秘密基本上是要限定的，就是特定的秘密，不是所有的秘密，不然的話會有處罰過廣的問題。這一次比較爭議性的第一百三十二條，就是這次在記者會被拿出來的到底是不是「應秘密」這件事情，當然可以討論，但是我也必須告訴大家，就是請問外交部在判斷秘密的這件事情上，不知道次長知不知道是要形式上去認定，還是要實質上去認定？"],["田次長中光：這個案我們認為在形式跟實質上都有權力做一個判斷。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝次長。其實在法律上的判斷，只要形式上已經符合是秘密，譬如它上面有個「密件」、寫個「密」，基本上就必須要做告發的行為。至於實質上它到底符不符合「應秘密」3個字，這交給法官判斷、交給檢察官判斷，當然外交部會有外交部的立場。但其實這整件事情非常簡單，就是我們看到它是一個密件，而這個密件在形式上已經符合所謂秘密之文書，所以外交部依職權就告訴相關檢察單位說這邊可能有密件洩漏的嫌疑。我們都是這樣子在看一個案件，10%的嫌疑、20%的嫌疑，到檢察官起訴可能是百分之五、六十的嫌疑，法官確定這真的是問題了，那就是百分之百了，對不對？所以是一步一步往上的，倒不是說什麼今天行政單位像外交部，它必須要去實質認定內部如此詳細的事項。因為這幾天這個爭議可能會很大，所以我想在前面先跟大家講一下整件事情的來龍去脈。","接下來我想針對今天的問題，今天的題目是在講，就是習近平跑到歐洲的這個過程，我這邊綜整了一下，2022年習近平有跟蒲亭見面，後來俄羅斯也入侵烏克蘭；他在2023年跑去敘利亞，不到幾天哈馬斯的攻擊就發生了。對我來講，其實更重要的事情可能不是中國去見這些可能跟臺灣有關的友邦，而是見到跟中國更為靠近的一些國家。有的時候，我們今天要看的這個框架，可能不太在於像他去法國這件事情，而是他如果在這個行程當中又跑去了其他一些國家，我覺得這可能會是比較重要的事。所以跟拜登會面，像這個是我們的民主同盟國家，那他在這邊就會講什麼他短期並沒有侵臺計畫等等之類的，這就倒過來了，它跟這個戰爭的發生沒有關係，比較像是一種promise，就是臺海穩定什麼的等等之類。這一次我在業務報告裡面也看到蠻多就是在討論，那他到底跟馬克宏討論了整個歐洲跟中國之間的關係，因為現在比較緊繃，尤其是歐盟，而這個緊繃的關係要怎麼緩解，我覺得他可能很大的目標是在於這裡。所以我只是單純覺得，其實習近平訪歐好像感覺上沒有那麼重要，但有另外一件事情更為重要，其實是南海衝突，為什麼？我覺得以外交部的立場，或者以次長的立場來講，我們今天本來要討論臺海局勢，就是他現今訪歐跟臺海局勢的關係，南海這個局勢跟臺海的局勢比起來，不知道現在在研判上面哪一個比較危險？"],["田次長中光：我個人覺得，在南海的可能是比較危險一點。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝次長，你跟美國相關的判斷是一致的，他們認為現在南海的風險其實非常非常高。在南海風險比較高的狀況之下，中國跟菲律賓之間的衝突非常多，我們也可以看到先前他們好幾次國際上的協定或者仲裁的一些結果，中國不願意接受。夏立言在2024年3月訪中，應該還不到回來的時候，馬上就丟出了太平島這樣的議題。太平島之所以重要，是因為太平島在南海爭議裡面特別重要，它不是對我國重要而已，它對菲律賓很重要，對中國也很重要。所以這件事情，對我來講，反而可能有更高度的一個重要性是因為我們今天在太平島上面的所作所為，可能會被中國拿去利用。","但我這邊也要強調一件事情，我完全不反對去太平島這件事，我覺得我們的各個委員如果有人想要去，這絕對是他的權利，而且他想要去那邊看什麼東西，這絕對是在他的職責範圍之內。我比較擔心的事情是，因為國台辦之前發出一個聲明說它很高興，現在有人可以跟他們共同守護相關的主權，所以中國想要趁這個機會吃豆腐。當然我們現在有委員要去，這是他們的權利，但不知道外交部有沒有一些研判、告訴這些要出發的委員說，我們今天去的時候的過程要怎樣才不會在國際上被利用？因為我們可以預判，中國有可能會發出各式各樣的聲明去利用這個出訪，但如果我們把這個出訪先定調好，不讓它利用的話，這個出訪反而會變得非常有意義，不知道外交部在這上面有沒有一些研判，然後給這些能夠出發的委員，讓他們知道有什麼事情可以做、什麼事情不能做？在整個南海的局勢上面。"],["田次長中光：基本上我們的立場一直是堅定的，太平島就是我們的主權、領土的主權，不論在國際法、海洋法來說這都是沒有疑問的。那麼尊重立法委員，如果要去訪問自己的國土，我們是相當相當地尊重，中間如果需要外交部協助的地方，因為外交部會協助，如果立法委員到海外的話，每到一個國家我們都會協助。但是到了太平島，可能已經不是我們的範圍之內，我們予以高度的祝福、高度的祝福。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝，我覺得像這種事情，因為不同的局勢會有不同的風險評估，不管國安單位、外交單位，能夠讓出訪的知道現在南海局勢有什麼樣的風險，所以去的時候可以注意什麼，我覺得對委員會有很大的幫助。"],["田次長中光：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：最後再給我30秒，很不好意思。目前我比較擔心的還有另外一件事情，以往有這個叫做幽靈協議的「九二共識」，就是完全不知道在講什麼，「九二共識」就生出來了。延續剛剛提的南海衝突，目前菲律賓一直駁斥，因為中國就一直在講他們其實跟某一個將軍已經有一個協定，有一個新模式已經談好了，談好了之後，現在找不到這個人，但是偏偏中國最近釋出了那段錄音，然後就說你看，我們就已經談了，關於南海的局勢，這一個將軍都已經講過什麼話。像這種幽靈式的法律戰，像以往中國在金門水域做的事情是，真的創造一個既定的事實，他就再用法律框架把它匡下去；但現在不是，他連法律框架跟事實都不具備，他直接偽造了一個東西，然後說我們已經談好了。那我很怕這一陣子南海的這種方式會變得越來越多，所以如果能夠把這個納入風險評估，讓能夠去太平島的人知道這件事情，我覺得也會是重要的，所以想稍微做個簡單的提醒。"],["田次長中光：是，好。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝，因為時間的關係。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":384,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-19","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","徐巧芯","黃仁","林楚茵","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","王定宇","陳培瑜","林憶君","賴士葆","邱志偉","洪申翰","王鴻薇"],"page_start":329,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134401_00013"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局、外交部報告「大陸領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化對我國安之影響」，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1134401_00008"}},"transcript":{"id":"152423","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152423","tool":"pyannote","id":"152423-pyannote"},"job_id":"Kgh1qXj4i3FNA08y","queued_at":"2024-05-31 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106.89, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"話\"}]}, {\"start\": 107.37, \"end\": 110.653, \"text\": \"請問今天外交部在判斷秘密這件事情不知道次長知不知道是要形式上去認定還是要實質上去認定\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 107.37, \"end\": 107.39, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 107.39, \"end\": 107.49, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 107.49, \"end\": 107.59, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 107.59, \"end\": 107.81, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 107.81, \"end\": 107.991, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 107.991, \"end\": 108.011, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"判\", \"start\": 108.011, \"end\": 108.211, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"斷\"}, {\"word\": \"秘\", \"start\": 108.211, \"end\": 108.411, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"密\", \"start\": 108.411, \"end\": 108.591, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 108.591, \"end\": 108.711, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 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\"所以當然外交部會有外交部的立場但其實這件事情非常的簡單就是我們看到他是一個密件這個密件在形式上已經符合這個所謂的秘密的文書所以外交部依他的職權就來告訴這個相關的檢查單位說這邊可能有密件洩漏的嫌疑所以我們都是這樣子在看一個案件10%的嫌疑、20%的嫌疑到檢察官起訴可能是5、60%的嫌疑法官確定這真的是問題了那就是100%了嘛\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 158.223, \"end\": 158.303, \"score\": 0.756}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 158.303, \"end\": 158.563, \"score\": 0.729}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 158.563, \"end\": 158.803, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 158.803, \"end\": 158.964, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 158.964, \"end\": 159.124, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 159.124, \"end\": 159.344, \"score\": 0.712}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 159.344, \"end\": 159.444, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 159.444, \"end\": 159.604, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 159.604, \"end\": 159.764, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 159.764, \"end\": 159.864, \"score\": 0.567}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 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\"start\": 544.695, \"end\": 545.076, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"框\", \"start\": 545.076, \"end\": 545.236, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 545.236, \"end\": 545.456, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 545.456, \"end\": 545.916, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 545.916, \"end\": 546.116, \"score\": 0.645}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 546.116, \"end\": 546.236, \"score\": 0.767}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 546.236, \"end\": 546.336, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 546.336, \"end\": 546.356, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 546.596, \"end\": 546.616, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,490 --> 00:00:00,871\n有請田次長\n\n2\n00:00:10,653 --> 00:00:33,172\n早,那這個剛剛因為剛剛楚英委員有提到這個國安相關的事項本來今天也想問但是我覺得這一個我們可能留待剛剛這個主席也有提到啦搞不好在這幾天的機會國安選會來所以我今天針對外交的部分來問那這個第一個我先來講一下因為最近這個風風雨雨本來謠傳說這個今天有很多委員想要來針對外交部來問這個問題\n\n3\n00:00:35,193 --> 00:00:51,540\n但是可能因為今天部長沒來我猜可能會到禮拜三禮拜四但不管怎樣我覺得先定調一下我覺得這整件事情其實非常的單純那這個次長可以看到我這邊有整理幾個我們刑法目前的一個規定109條是這一個國防相關的文書132條就這一次比較爭議性的這個國防以外的這個秘密那318條是跟這一個公務員有關但是是工商秘密\n\n4\n00:01:03,344 --> 00:01:22,278\n其實我覺得在這邊說真的行政跟立法都有自己的分界就好像今天行政上有行政的特權但我不可能說行政的特權可以殺人放火那立法委員當然也有我們自己的權利但也不代表立法委員有把密件可以拿出來透露的權利這其實是兩件事情\n\n5\n00:01:23,358 --> 00:01:46,890\n在這一邊我想藉由這個機會告訴大家像318條公務員他去洩漏的時候他限定的並不是所有的秘密他是限定在工商秘密那109條他是國防的一秘密也就是說目前在我們刑法的規範上面其實秘密基本上是要限定的就是他特定的秘密他不是所有的秘密那不然的話\n\n6\n00:01:47,370 --> 00:01:50,653\n請問今天外交部在判斷秘密這件事情不知道次長知不知道是要形式上去認定還是要實質上去認定\n\n7\n00:02:13,892 --> 00:02:35,982\n這個案我們認為在形式跟實質上都有權利做一個判斷好謝謝次長那其實呢一直在這個法律上的判斷只要是形式上已經符合秘密譬如說它上面有個密件嘛寫個密基本上就必須要做這個告發的行為了那至於實質上它到底符不符合這三個字叫因秘密這交給法官來判斷交給檢察官來判斷\n\n8\n00:02:38,223 --> 00:03:05,820\n所以當然外交部會有外交部的立場但其實這件事情非常的簡單就是我們看到他是一個密件這個密件在形式上已經符合這個所謂的秘密的文書所以外交部依他的職權就來告訴這個相關的檢查單位說這邊可能有密件洩漏的嫌疑所以我們都是這樣子在看一個案件10%的嫌疑、20%的嫌疑到檢察官起訴可能是5、60%的嫌疑法官確定這真的是問題了那就是100%了嘛\n\n9\n00:03:06,721 --> 00:03:07,442\n那我這邊重整了一下就是\n\n10\n00:03:34,225 --> 00:03:55,054\n在2022年的時候習近平有跟普丁見面後來俄羅斯也入侵了烏克蘭後來他有在2023年的時候去跑去敘利亞後來2023年不到幾天哈馬斯的攻擊就發生了所以對我來講其實更重要的事情可能不是中國去建這些可能跟台灣有關的友邦\n\n11\n00:03:55,774 --> 00:04:19,020\n而是去見到一些跟中國更為靠近的一些國家所以這個對我來講有時候我們今天要看的這一個框架可能不太在於說像他去法國這件事情而是他如果在這一個行程當中他又跑去了一些其他國家我覺得這可能會是比較重要的事那所以呢像這一個跟拜登會面像這個是我們的民主同盟的國家\n\n12\n00:04:19,861 --> 00:04:24,986\n沈伯洋表示,他並沒有在短期內提及清台計劃。這與戰爭的發生沒有關係,而是一種承諾,例如台海的穩定之類的。這次我在《夜報》也看到蠻多討論說,他到底跟馬克宏討論的\n\n13\n00:04:38,439 --> 00:04:39,460\n習近平訪歐後國安之影響\n\n14\n00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:14,859\n為什麼呢?就是因為我覺得以這個外交部的立場或者以次長的立場來講就是現在南海的這一個局勢跟我們今天本來要討論台海局勢嘛就是說他今天訪歐跟台海局勢的關係這個南海的局勢跟台海的局勢比起來不知道現在在研判上面哪一個比較危險\n\n15\n00:05:17,563 --> 00:05:32,955\n我個人覺得在南海的可能是比較危險一點的好那謝謝次長這個你跟這一個我們的這一個這個美國相關的判斷是一致的他們認為現在南海的風險其實是非常非常高的那在南海風險比較高的狀況之下\n\n16\n00:05:34,156 --> 00:05:54,867\n我們現在其實中國跟菲律賓之間的衝突其實非常的多那我們也可以看到這個在前面他們好幾次的這一個國際上的一些這個協定或者說這個一些仲裁的一些結果中國不願意接受那接下來這一個夏立遠在2024年3月去訪中之後回來這個應該還不到回來的時候就是馬上就丟出了太平島這樣的一個議題\n\n17\n00:05:59,809 --> 00:06:17,803\n因為太平島之所以重要是因為太平島在南海爭議裡面特別重要它不是對我國重要而已它對菲律賓也很重要對中國也很重要所以這件事情對我來講反而有可能有更高度的一個重要性是因為如果我們今天在太平島上面的\n\n18\n00:06:19,204 --> 00:06:45,218\n所作所為中國可能會被拿去利用但我這邊也是要強調一件事情我完全不反對說去太平島這件事我覺得這個是以我們的各個委員如果有人想要去這絕對是他的權利而且他想要去那邊看什麼東西這絕對是在他的職責範圍之內我比較擔心的事情是因為國台辦之前有發出一個聲明說他很高興這一個我們現在有人可以跟我們共同守護這個相關的主權\n\n19\n00:06:47,139 --> 00:07:16,078\n所以中國想要趁這個機會吃豆腐所以當然我們現在有委員要去這是他們的權利但不知道外交部有沒有什麼一些研判的一些措出告訴我們這些要出發的委員說我們今天去的時候的過程要怎樣才不會在國際上被利用因為我們可以預判說中國有可能會發出各式各樣的聲明去利用這個出訪但如果我們把這個出訪先定調好不讓他利用的話那這個出訪反而會變得非常有意義\n\n20\n00:07:16,818 --> 00:07:39,349\n所以不知道外交部在這上面有沒有一些研判然後給這些能夠出發的委員能夠讓他們知道說有什麼事情可以做什麼事情不能做在整個南海的局勢上面基本上我們的立場一直是堅定的太平島就是我們的主權、領土的主權不論在國際法、海洋法來說這都是沒有疑問的\n\n21\n00:07:40,626 --> 00:08:02,508\n那麼尊重立法委員如果要去訪問自己的國土我們是相當相當的尊重中間如果需要外交部協助的地方呢因為外交部會協助如果立法院到海外的話我們每一個道義國家我們都會協助但是到了太平島可能是已經不是我們的範圍之內我們予以高度的祝福\n\n22\n00:08:03,109 --> 00:08:03,829\n高度的祝福\n\n23\n00:08:18,117 --> 00:08:46,031\n那我最後一個稍微再給我30秒很不好意思就是目前我比較擔心的還有另外一件事情就是在2024年現在因為以往我們有這個叫做幽靈的九二共識就是完全不知道在講什麼九二共識就生出來了那現在因為剛剛在延續這個南海衝突目前菲律賓這個一直在駁斥因為中國就一直在講說他們其實跟某一個將軍已經有一個某一個協定有一個新模式已經談好了所以談好了之後那現在這個人是找不到人\n\n24\n00:08:46,810 --> 00:09:06,356\n但是呢偏偏中國最近釋出了那個錄音然後就說你看我們就已經談了關於南海的局勢這一個將軍都已經講過什麼話那像這種幽靈式的這種法律戰因為以往中國在像金門水域他做的事情是我真的創造一個既定的事實他在用法律框架把它框下去但現在不是\n\n25\n00:09:06,596 --> 00:09:06,616\n好,謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n490\t871\t有請田次長\n10653\t33172\t早,那這個剛剛因為剛剛楚英委員有提到這個國安相關的事項本來今天也想問但是我覺得這一個我們可能留待剛剛這個主席也有提到啦搞不好在這幾天的機會國安選會來所以我今天針對外交的部分來問那這個第一個我先來講一下因為最近這個風風雨雨本來謠傳說這個今天有很多委員想要來針對外交部來問這個問題\n35193\t51540\t但是可能因為今天部長沒來我猜可能會到禮拜三禮拜四但不管怎樣我覺得先定調一下我覺得這整件事情其實非常的單純那這個次長可以看到我這邊有整理幾個我們刑法目前的一個規定109條是這一個國防相關的文書132條就這一次比較爭議性的這個國防以外的這個秘密那318條是跟這一個公務員有關但是是工商秘密\n63344\t82278\t其實我覺得在這邊說真的行政跟立法都有自己的分界就好像今天行政上有行政的特權但我不可能說行政的特權可以殺人放火那立法委員當然也有我們自己的權利但也不代表立法委員有把密件可以拿出來透露的權利這其實是兩件事情\n83358\t106890\t在這一邊我想藉由這個機會告訴大家像318條公務員他去洩漏的時候他限定的並不是所有的秘密他是限定在工商秘密那109條他是國防的一秘密也就是說目前在我們刑法的規範上面其實秘密基本上是要限定的就是他特定的秘密他不是所有的秘密那不然的話\n107370\t110653\t請問今天外交部在判斷秘密這件事情不知道次長知不知道是要形式上去認定還是要實質上去認定\n133892\t155982\t這個案我們認為在形式跟實質上都有權利做一個判斷好 謝謝次長那其實呢一直在這個法律上的判斷只要是形式上已經符合秘密譬如說它上面有個密件嘛寫個密基本上就必須要做這個告發的行為了那至於實質上它到底符不符合這三個字叫因秘密這交給法官來判斷交給檢察官來判斷\n158223\t185820\t所以當然外交部會有外交部的立場但其實這件事情非常的簡單就是我們看到他是一個密件這個密件在形式上已經符合這個所謂的秘密的文書所以外交部依他的職權就來告訴這個相關的檢查單位說這邊可能有密件洩漏的嫌疑所以我們都是這樣子在看一個案件10%的嫌疑、20%的嫌疑到檢察官起訴可能是5、60%的嫌疑法官確定這真的是問題了那就是100%了嘛\n186721\t187442\t那我這邊重整了一下就是\n214225\t235054\t在2022年的時候習近平有跟普丁見面後來俄羅斯也入侵了烏克蘭後來他有在2023年的時候去跑去敘利亞後來2023年不到幾天哈馬斯的攻擊就發生了所以對我來講其實更重要的事情可能不是中國去建這些可能跟台灣有關的友邦\n235774\t259020\t而是去見到一些跟中國更為靠近的一些國家所以這個對我來講有時候我們今天要看的這一個框架可能不太在於說像他去法國這件事情而是他如果在這一個行程當中他又跑去了一些其他國家我覺得這可能會是比較重要的事那所以呢像這一個跟拜登會面像這個是我們的民主同盟的國家\n259861\t264986\t沈伯洋表示,他並沒有在短期內提及清台計劃。這與戰爭的發生沒有關係,而是一種承諾,例如台海的穩定之類的。這次我在《夜報》也看到蠻多討論說,他到底跟馬克宏討論的\n278439\t279460\t習近平訪歐後國安之影響\n298080\t314859\t為什麼呢?就是因為我覺得以這個外交部的立場或者以次長的立場來講就是現在南海的這一個局勢跟我們今天本來要討論台海局勢嘛就是說他今天訪歐跟台海局勢的關係這個南海的局勢跟台海的局勢比起來不知道現在在研判上面哪一個比較危險\n317563\t332955\t我個人覺得在南海的可能是比較危險一點的好那謝謝次長這個你跟這一個我們的這一個這個美國相關的判斷是一致的他們認為現在南海的風險其實是非常非常高的那在南海風險比較高的狀況之下\n334156\t354867\t我們現在其實中國跟菲律賓之間的衝突其實非常的多那我們也可以看到這個在前面他們好幾次的這一個國際上的一些這個協定或者說這個一些仲裁的一些結果中國不願意接受那接下來這一個夏立遠在2024年3月去訪中之後回來這個應該還不到回來的時候就是馬上就丟出了太平島這樣的一個議題\n359809\t377803\t因為太平島之所以重要是因為太平島在南海爭議裡面特別重要它不是對我國重要而已它對菲律賓也很重要對中國也很重要所以這件事情對我來講反而有可能有更高度的一個重要性是因為如果我們今天在太平島上面的\n379204\t405218\t所作所為中國可能會被拿去利用但我這邊也是要強調一件事情我完全不反對說去太平島這件事我覺得這個是以我們的各個委員如果有人想要去這絕對是他的權利而且他想要去那邊看什麼東西這絕對是在他的職責範圍之內我比較擔心的事情是因為國台辦之前有發出一個聲明說他很高興這一個我們現在有人可以跟我們共同守護這個相關的主權\n407139\t436078\t所以中國想要趁這個機會吃豆腐所以當然我們現在有委員要去這是他們的權利但不知道外交部有沒有什麼一些研判的一些措出告訴我們這些要出發的委員說我們今天去的時候的過程要怎樣才不會在國際上被利用因為我們可以預判說中國有可能會發出各式各樣的聲明去利用這個出訪但如果我們把這個出訪先定調好不讓他利用的話那這個出訪反而會變得非常有意義\n436818\t459349\t所以不知道外交部在這上面有沒有一些研判然後給這些能夠出發的委員能夠讓他們知道說有什麼事情可以做什麼事情不能做在整個南海的局勢上面基本上我們的立場一直是堅定的太平島就是我們的主權、領土的主權不論在國際法、海洋法來說這都是沒有疑問的\n460626\t482508\t那麼尊重立法委員如果要去訪問自己的國土我們是相當相當的尊重中間如果需要外交部協助的地方呢因為外交部會協助如果立法院到海外的話我們每一個道義國家我們都會協助但是到了太平島可能是已經不是我們的範圍之內我們予以高度的祝福\n483109\t483829\t高度的祝福\n498117\t526031\t那我最後一個稍微再給我30秒很不好意思就是目前我比較擔心的還有另外一件事情就是在2024年現在因為以往我們有這個叫做幽靈的九二共識就是完全不知道在講什麼九二共識就生出來了那現在因為剛剛在延續這個南海衝突目前菲律賓這個一直在駁斥因為中國就一直在講說他們其實跟某一個將軍已經有一個某一個協定有一個新模式已經談好了所以談好了之後那現在這個人是找不到人\n526810\t546356\t但是呢偏偏中國最近釋出了那個錄音然後就說你看我們就已經談了關於南海的局勢這一個將軍都已經講過什麼話那像這種幽靈式的這種法律戰因為以往中國在像金門水域他做的事情是我真的創造一個既定的事實他在用法律框架把它框下去但現在不是\n546596\t546616\t好,謝謝\n","txt":"有請田次長\n早,那這個剛剛因為剛剛楚英委員有提到這個國安相關的事項本來今天也想問但是我覺得這一個我們可能留待剛剛這個主席也有提到啦搞不好在這幾天的機會國安選會來所以我今天針對外交的部分來問那這個第一個我先來講一下因為最近這個風風雨雨本來謠傳說這個今天有很多委員想要來針對外交部來問這個問題\n但是可能因為今天部長沒來我猜可能會到禮拜三禮拜四但不管怎樣我覺得先定調一下我覺得這整件事情其實非常的單純那這個次長可以看到我這邊有整理幾個我們刑法目前的一個規定109條是這一個國防相關的文書132條就這一次比較爭議性的這個國防以外的這個秘密那318條是跟這一個公務員有關但是是工商秘密\n其實我覺得在這邊說真的行政跟立法都有自己的分界就好像今天行政上有行政的特權但我不可能說行政的特權可以殺人放火那立法委員當然也有我們自己的權利但也不代表立法委員有把密件可以拿出來透露的權利這其實是兩件事情\n在這一邊我想藉由這個機會告訴大家像318條公務員他去洩漏的時候他限定的並不是所有的秘密他是限定在工商秘密那109條他是國防的一秘密也就是說目前在我們刑法的規範上面其實秘密基本上是要限定的就是他特定的秘密他不是所有的秘密那不然的話\n請問今天外交部在判斷秘密這件事情不知道次長知不知道是要形式上去認定還是要實質上去認定\n這個案我們認為在形式跟實質上都有權利做一個判斷好 謝謝次長那其實呢一直在這個法律上的判斷只要是形式上已經符合秘密譬如說它上面有個密件嘛寫個密基本上就必須要做這個告發的行為了那至於實質上它到底符不符合這三個字叫因秘密這交給法官來判斷交給檢察官來判斷\n所以當然外交部會有外交部的立場但其實這件事情非常的簡單就是我們看到他是一個密件這個密件在形式上已經符合這個所謂的秘密的文書所以外交部依他的職權就來告訴這個相關的檢查單位說這邊可能有密件洩漏的嫌疑所以我們都是這樣子在看一個案件10%的嫌疑、20%的嫌疑到檢察官起訴可能是5、60%的嫌疑法官確定這真的是問題了那就是100%了嘛\n那我這邊重整了一下就是\n在2022年的時候習近平有跟普丁見面後來俄羅斯也入侵了烏克蘭後來他有在2023年的時候去跑去敘利亞後來2023年不到幾天哈馬斯的攻擊就發生了所以對我來講其實更重要的事情可能不是中國去建這些可能跟台灣有關的友邦\n而是去見到一些跟中國更為靠近的一些國家所以這個對我來講有時候我們今天要看的這一個框架可能不太在於說像他去法國這件事情而是他如果在這一個行程當中他又跑去了一些其他國家我覺得這可能會是比較重要的事那所以呢像這一個跟拜登會面像這個是我們的民主同盟的國家\n沈伯洋表示,他並沒有在短期內提及清台計劃。這與戰爭的發生沒有關係,而是一種承諾,例如台海的穩定之類的。這次我在《夜報》也看到蠻多討論說,他到底跟馬克宏討論的\n習近平訪歐後國安之影響\n為什麼呢?就是因為我覺得以這個外交部的立場或者以次長的立場來講就是現在南海的這一個局勢跟我們今天本來要討論台海局勢嘛就是說他今天訪歐跟台海局勢的關係這個南海的局勢跟台海的局勢比起來不知道現在在研判上面哪一個比較危險\n我個人覺得在南海的可能是比較危險一點的好那謝謝次長這個你跟這一個我們的這一個這個美國相關的判斷是一致的他們認為現在南海的風險其實是非常非常高的那在南海風險比較高的狀況之下\n我們現在其實中國跟菲律賓之間的衝突其實非常的多那我們也可以看到這個在前面他們好幾次的這一個國際上的一些這個協定或者說這個一些仲裁的一些結果中國不願意接受那接下來這一個夏立遠在2024年3月去訪中之後回來這個應該還不到回來的時候就是馬上就丟出了太平島這樣的一個議題\n因為太平島之所以重要是因為太平島在南海爭議裡面特別重要它不是對我國重要而已它對菲律賓也很重要對中國也很重要所以這件事情對我來講反而有可能有更高度的一個重要性是因為如果我們今天在太平島上面的\n所作所為中國可能會被拿去利用但我這邊也是要強調一件事情我完全不反對說去太平島這件事我覺得這個是以我們的各個委員如果有人想要去這絕對是他的權利而且他想要去那邊看什麼東西這絕對是在他的職責範圍之內我比較擔心的事情是因為國台辦之前有發出一個聲明說他很高興這一個我們現在有人可以跟我們共同守護這個相關的主權\n所以中國想要趁這個機會吃豆腐所以當然我們現在有委員要去這是他們的權利但不知道外交部有沒有什麼一些研判的一些措出告訴我們這些要出發的委員說我們今天去的時候的過程要怎樣才不會在國際上被利用因為我們可以預判說中國有可能會發出各式各樣的聲明去利用這個出訪但如果我們把這個出訪先定調好不讓他利用的話那這個出訪反而會變得非常有意義\n所以不知道外交部在這上面有沒有一些研判然後給這些能夠出發的委員能夠讓他們知道說有什麼事情可以做什麼事情不能做在整個南海的局勢上面基本上我們的立場一直是堅定的太平島就是我們的主權、領土的主權不論在國際法、海洋法來說這都是沒有疑問的\n那麼尊重立法委員如果要去訪問自己的國土我們是相當相當的尊重中間如果需要外交部協助的地方呢因為外交部會協助如果立法院到海外的話我們每一個道義國家我們都會協助但是到了太平島可能是已經不是我們的範圍之內我們予以高度的祝福\n高度的祝福\n那我最後一個稍微再給我30秒很不好意思就是目前我比較擔心的還有另外一件事情就是在2024年現在因為以往我們有這個叫做幽靈的九二共識就是完全不知道在講什麼九二共識就生出來了那現在因為剛剛在延續這個南海衝突目前菲律賓這個一直在駁斥因為中國就一直在講說他們其實跟某一個將軍已經有一個某一個協定有一個新模式已經談好了所以談好了之後那現在這個人是找不到人\n但是呢偏偏中國最近釋出了那個錄音然後就說你看我們就已經談了關於南海的局勢這一個將軍都已經講過什麼話那像這種幽靈式的這種法律戰因為以往中國在像金門水域他做的事情是我真的創造一個既定的事實他在用法律框架把它框下去但現在不是\n好,謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.490 --> 00:00.871\n有請田次長\n\n00:10.653 --> 00:33.172\n早,那這個剛剛因為剛剛楚英委員有提到這個國安相關的事項本來今天也想問但是我覺得這一個我們可能留待剛剛這個主席也有提到啦搞不好在這幾天的機會國安選會來所以我今天針對外交的部分來問那這個第一個我先來講一下因為最近這個風風雨雨本來謠傳說這個今天有很多委員想要來針對外交部來問這個問題\n\n00:35.193 --> 00:51.540\n但是可能因為今天部長沒來我猜可能會到禮拜三禮拜四但不管怎樣我覺得先定調一下我覺得這整件事情其實非常的單純那這個次長可以看到我這邊有整理幾個我們刑法目前的一個規定109條是這一個國防相關的文書132條就這一次比較爭議性的這個國防以外的這個秘密那318條是跟這一個公務員有關但是是工商秘密\n\n01:03.344 --> 01:22.278\n其實我覺得在這邊說真的行政跟立法都有自己的分界就好像今天行政上有行政的特權但我不可能說行政的特權可以殺人放火那立法委員當然也有我們自己的權利但也不代表立法委員有把密件可以拿出來透露的權利這其實是兩件事情\n\n01:23.358 --> 01:46.890\n在這一邊我想藉由這個機會告訴大家像318條公務員他去洩漏的時候他限定的並不是所有的秘密他是限定在工商秘密那109條他是國防的一秘密也就是說目前在我們刑法的規範上面其實秘密基本上是要限定的就是他特定的秘密他不是所有的秘密那不然的話\n\n01:47.370 --> 01:50.653\n請問今天外交部在判斷秘密這件事情不知道次長知不知道是要形式上去認定還是要實質上去認定\n\n02:13.892 --> 02:35.982\n這個案我們認為在形式跟實質上都有權利做一個判斷好謝謝次長那其實呢一直在這個法律上的判斷只要是形式上已經符合秘密譬如說它上面有個密件嘛寫個密基本上就必須要做這個告發的行為了那至於實質上它到底符不符合這三個字叫因秘密這交給法官來判斷交給檢察官來判斷\n\n02:38.223 --> 03:05.820\n所以當然外交部會有外交部的立場但其實這件事情非常的簡單就是我們看到他是一個密件這個密件在形式上已經符合這個所謂的秘密的文書所以外交部依他的職權就來告訴這個相關的檢查單位說這邊可能有密件洩漏的嫌疑所以我們都是這樣子在看一個案件10%的嫌疑、20%的嫌疑到檢察官起訴可能是5、60%的嫌疑法官確定這真的是問題了那就是100%了嘛\n\n03:06.721 --> 03:07.442\n那我這邊重整了一下就是\n\n03:34.225 --> 03:55.054\n在2022年的時候習近平有跟普丁見面後來俄羅斯也入侵了烏克蘭後來他有在2023年的時候去跑去敘利亞後來2023年不到幾天哈馬斯的攻擊就發生了所以對我來講其實更重要的事情可能不是中國去建這些可能跟台灣有關的友邦\n\n03:55.774 --> 04:19.020\n而是去見到一些跟中國更為靠近的一些國家所以這個對我來講有時候我們今天要看的這一個框架可能不太在於說像他去法國這件事情而是他如果在這一個行程當中他又跑去了一些其他國家我覺得這可能會是比較重要的事那所以呢像這一個跟拜登會面像這個是我們的民主同盟的國家\n\n04:19.861 --> 04:24.986\n沈伯洋表示,他並沒有在短期內提及清台計劃。這與戰爭的發生沒有關係,而是一種承諾,例如台海的穩定之類的。這次我在《夜報》也看到蠻多討論說,他到底跟馬克宏討論的\n\n04:38.439 --> 04:39.460\n習近平訪歐後國安之影響\n\n04:58.080 --> 05:14.859\n為什麼呢?就是因為我覺得以這個外交部的立場或者以次長的立場來講就是現在南海的這一個局勢跟我們今天本來要討論台海局勢嘛就是說他今天訪歐跟台海局勢的關係這個南海的局勢跟台海的局勢比起來不知道現在在研判上面哪一個比較危險\n\n05:17.563 --> 05:32.955\n我個人覺得在南海的可能是比較危險一點的好那謝謝次長這個你跟這一個我們的這一個這個美國相關的判斷是一致的他們認為現在南海的風險其實是非常非常高的那在南海風險比較高的狀況之下\n\n05:34.156 --> 05:54.867\n我們現在其實中國跟菲律賓之間的衝突其實非常的多那我們也可以看到這個在前面他們好幾次的這一個國際上的一些這個協定或者說這個一些仲裁的一些結果中國不願意接受那接下來這一個夏立遠在2024年3月去訪中之後回來這個應該還不到回來的時候就是馬上就丟出了太平島這樣的一個議題\n\n05:59.809 --> 06:17.803\n因為太平島之所以重要是因為太平島在南海爭議裡面特別重要它不是對我國重要而已它對菲律賓也很重要對中國也很重要所以這件事情對我來講反而有可能有更高度的一個重要性是因為如果我們今天在太平島上面的\n\n06:19.204 --> 06:45.218\n所作所為中國可能會被拿去利用但我這邊也是要強調一件事情我完全不反對說去太平島這件事我覺得這個是以我們的各個委員如果有人想要去這絕對是他的權利而且他想要去那邊看什麼東西這絕對是在他的職責範圍之內我比較擔心的事情是因為國台辦之前有發出一個聲明說他很高興這一個我們現在有人可以跟我們共同守護這個相關的主權\n\n06:47.139 --> 07:16.078\n所以中國想要趁這個機會吃豆腐所以當然我們現在有委員要去這是他們的權利但不知道外交部有沒有什麼一些研判的一些措出告訴我們這些要出發的委員說我們今天去的時候的過程要怎樣才不會在國際上被利用因為我們可以預判說中國有可能會發出各式各樣的聲明去利用這個出訪但如果我們把這個出訪先定調好不讓他利用的話那這個出訪反而會變得非常有意義\n\n07:16.818 --> 07:39.349\n所以不知道外交部在這上面有沒有一些研判然後給這些能夠出發的委員能夠讓他們知道說有什麼事情可以做什麼事情不能做在整個南海的局勢上面基本上我們的立場一直是堅定的太平島就是我們的主權、領土的主權不論在國際法、海洋法來說這都是沒有疑問的\n\n07:40.626 --> 08:02.508\n那麼尊重立法委員如果要去訪問自己的國土我們是相當相當的尊重中間如果需要外交部協助的地方呢因為外交部會協助如果立法院到海外的話我們每一個道義國家我們都會協助但是到了太平島可能是已經不是我們的範圍之內我們予以高度的祝福\n\n08:03.109 --> 08:03.829\n高度的祝福\n\n08:18.117 --> 08:46.031\n那我最後一個稍微再給我30秒很不好意思就是目前我比較擔心的還有另外一件事情就是在2024年現在因為以往我們有這個叫做幽靈的九二共識就是完全不知道在講什麼九二共識就生出來了那現在因為剛剛在延續這個南海衝突目前菲律賓這個一直在駁斥因為中國就一直在講說他們其實跟某一個將軍已經有一個某一個協定有一個新模式已經談好了所以談好了之後那現在這個人是找不到人\n\n08:46.810 --> 09:06.356\n但是呢偏偏中國最近釋出了那個錄音然後就說你看我們就已經談了關於南海的局勢這一個將軍都已經講過什麼話那像這種幽靈式的這種法律戰因為以往中國在像金門水域他做的事情是我真的創造一個既定的事實他在用法律框架把它框下去但現在不是\n\n09:06.596 --> 09:06.616\n好,謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.49,"end":0.871,"text":"有請田次長"},{"start":10.653,"end":33.172,"text":"早,那這個剛剛因為剛剛楚英委員有提到這個國安相關的事項本來今天也想問但是我覺得這一個我們可能留待剛剛這個主席也有提到啦搞不好在這幾天的機會國安選會來所以我今天針對外交的部分來問那這個第一個我先來講一下因為最近這個風風雨雨本來謠傳說這個今天有很多委員想要來針對外交部來問這個問題"},{"start":35.193,"end":51.54,"text":"但是可能因為今天部長沒來我猜可能會到禮拜三禮拜四但不管怎樣我覺得先定調一下我覺得這整件事情其實非常的單純那這個次長可以看到我這邊有整理幾個我們刑法目前的一個規定109條是這一個國防相關的文書132條就這一次比較爭議性的這個國防以外的這個秘密那318條是跟這一個公務員有關但是是工商秘密"},{"start":63.344,"end":82.278,"text":"其實我覺得在這邊說真的行政跟立法都有自己的分界就好像今天行政上有行政的特權但我不可能說行政的特權可以殺人放火那立法委員當然也有我們自己的權利但也不代表立法委員有把密件可以拿出來透露的權利這其實是兩件事情"},{"start":83.358,"end":106.89,"text":"在這一邊我想藉由這個機會告訴大家像318條公務員他去洩漏的時候他限定的並不是所有的秘密他是限定在工商秘密那109條他是國防的一秘密也就是說目前在我們刑法的規範上面其實秘密基本上是要限定的就是他特定的秘密他不是所有的秘密那不然的話"},{"start":107.37,"end":110.653,"text":"請問今天外交部在判斷秘密這件事情不知道次長知不知道是要形式上去認定還是要實質上去認定"},{"start":133.892,"end":155.982,"text":"這個案我們認為在形式跟實質上都有權利做一個判斷好 謝謝次長那其實呢一直在這個法律上的判斷只要是形式上已經符合秘密譬如說它上面有個密件嘛寫個密基本上就必須要做這個告發的行為了那至於實質上它到底符不符合這三個字叫因秘密這交給法官來判斷交給檢察官來判斷"},{"start":158.223,"end":185.82,"text":"所以當然外交部會有外交部的立場但其實這件事情非常的簡單就是我們看到他是一個密件這個密件在形式上已經符合這個所謂的秘密的文書所以外交部依他的職權就來告訴這個相關的檢查單位說這邊可能有密件洩漏的嫌疑所以我們都是這樣子在看一個案件10%的嫌疑、20%的嫌疑到檢察官起訴可能是5、60%的嫌疑法官確定這真的是問題了那就是100%了嘛"},{"start":186.721,"end":187.442,"text":"那我這邊重整了一下就是"},{"start":214.225,"end":235.054,"text":"在2022年的時候習近平有跟普丁見面後來俄羅斯也入侵了烏克蘭後來他有在2023年的時候去跑去敘利亞後來2023年不到幾天哈馬斯的攻擊就發生了所以對我來講其實更重要的事情可能不是中國去建這些可能跟台灣有關的友邦"},{"start":235.774,"end":259.02,"text":"而是去見到一些跟中國更為靠近的一些國家所以這個對我來講有時候我們今天要看的這一個框架可能不太在於說像他去法國這件事情而是他如果在這一個行程當中他又跑去了一些其他國家我覺得這可能會是比較重要的事那所以呢像這一個跟拜登會面像這個是我們的民主同盟的國家"},{"start":259.861,"end":264.986,"text":"沈伯洋表示,他並沒有在短期內提及清台計劃。這與戰爭的發生沒有關係,而是一種承諾,例如台海的穩定之類的。這次我在《夜報》也看到蠻多討論說,他到底跟馬克宏討論的"},{"start":278.439,"end":279.46,"text":"習近平訪歐後國安之影響"},{"start":298.08,"end":314.859,"text":"為什麼呢?就是因為我覺得以這個外交部的立場或者以次長的立場來講就是現在南海的這一個局勢跟我們今天本來要討論台海局勢嘛就是說他今天訪歐跟台海局勢的關係這個南海的局勢跟台海的局勢比起來不知道現在在研判上面哪一個比較危險"},{"start":317.563,"end":332.955,"text":"我個人覺得在南海的可能是比較危險一點的好那謝謝次長這個你跟這一個我們的這一個這個美國相關的判斷是一致的他們認為現在南海的風險其實是非常非常高的那在南海風險比較高的狀況之下"},{"start":334.156,"end":354.867,"text":"我們現在其實中國跟菲律賓之間的衝突其實非常的多那我們也可以看到這個在前面他們好幾次的這一個國際上的一些這個協定或者說這個一些仲裁的一些結果中國不願意接受那接下來這一個夏立遠在2024年3月去訪中之後回來這個應該還不到回來的時候就是馬上就丟出了太平島這樣的一個議題"},{"start":359.809,"end":377.803,"text":"因為太平島之所以重要是因為太平島在南海爭議裡面特別重要它不是對我國重要而已它對菲律賓也很重要對中國也很重要所以這件事情對我來講反而有可能有更高度的一個重要性是因為如果我們今天在太平島上面的"},{"start":379.204,"end":405.218,"text":"所作所為中國可能會被拿去利用但我這邊也是要強調一件事情我完全不反對說去太平島這件事我覺得這個是以我們的各個委員如果有人想要去這絕對是他的權利而且他想要去那邊看什麼東西這絕對是在他的職責範圍之內我比較擔心的事情是因為國台辦之前有發出一個聲明說他很高興這一個我們現在有人可以跟我們共同守護這個相關的主權"},{"start":407.139,"end":436.078,"text":"所以中國想要趁這個機會吃豆腐所以當然我們現在有委員要去這是他們的權利但不知道外交部有沒有什麼一些研判的一些措出告訴我們這些要出發的委員說我們今天去的時候的過程要怎樣才不會在國際上被利用因為我們可以預判說中國有可能會發出各式各樣的聲明去利用這個出訪但如果我們把這個出訪先定調好不讓他利用的話那這個出訪反而會變得非常有意義"},{"start":436.818,"end":459.349,"text":"所以不知道外交部在這上面有沒有一些研判然後給這些能夠出發的委員能夠讓他們知道說有什麼事情可以做什麼事情不能做在整個南海的局勢上面基本上我們的立場一直是堅定的太平島就是我們的主權、領土的主權不論在國際法、海洋法來說這都是沒有疑問的"},{"start":460.626,"end":482.508,"text":"那麼尊重立法委員如果要去訪問自己的國土我們是相當相當的尊重中間如果需要外交部協助的地方呢因為外交部會協助如果立法院到海外的話我們每一個道義國家我們都會協助但是到了太平島可能是已經不是我們的範圍之內我們予以高度的祝福"},{"start":483.109,"end":483.829,"text":"高度的祝福"},{"start":498.117,"end":526.031,"text":"那我最後一個稍微再給我30秒很不好意思就是目前我比較擔心的還有另外一件事情就是在2024年現在因為以往我們有這個叫做幽靈的九二共識就是完全不知道在講什麼九二共識就生出來了那現在因為剛剛在延續這個南海衝突目前菲律賓這個一直在駁斥因為中國就一直在講說他們其實跟某一個將軍已經有一個某一個協定有一個新模式已經談好了所以談好了之後那現在這個人是找不到人"},{"start":526.81,"end":546.356,"text":"但是呢偏偏中國最近釋出了那個錄音然後就說你看我們就已經談了關於南海的局勢這一個將軍都已經講過什麼話那像這種幽靈式的這種法律戰因為以往中國在像金門水域他做的事情是我真的創造一個既定的事實他在用法律框架把它框下去但現在不是"},{"start":546.596,"end":546.616,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}}}}