{"id":152427,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152427","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e173428609c3a97123ff8ab4a2946638eec232d94006c6d412c4d4a97c753f255e09a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:25:31 - 10:37:09","影片長度":"00:11:38","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-16"},"duration":698,"end_time":"2024-05-13T10:37:09+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T10:25:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":619,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時25分）謝謝主席，請許部長及朱次長。"],["許部長銘春：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，你辛苦了。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：最後一週，我們還是討論重要的勞動權益問題，我們常常看這些消防弟兄出生入死，但是我們對於他們的權益保障，真的不能只是今日公祭、明日忘記，當每發生一件悲劇的時候，政府官員大家都會說我們要進一步再來保障這些消防弟兄的權益，但是時間過了之後，你就會看到大家並沒有提出更好的辦法，所以這也是為什麼我們看到有一些消防弟兄不斷地上街頭訴求他們要組工會。為什麼要組工會？就是因為他們覺得現行的權益沒有獲得保障，他們希望改善的事項並沒有全部到位。我們可以看到過去10年這麼多重大的災害，有三十幾位消防弟兄不幸身亡，這個都是悲劇，但是我們改善的幅度其實並不大，再看看他們的工作量，整個的緊急救護跟整個出動的比例，其實他們的工作量都是在增加的，並沒有下降。所以在這樣的情況底下，我覺得政府是有責任應該要提出一套更周延的辦法，而且要透過立法，讓他們的權益是真正獲得保障。","但是今天我們看到政府部門提出來的都是說不可行、不可行，就是組工會、修改工會法不可行，但是我們要看到的是，如果你們認為工會法不可行，那為什麼歐美各國可以？如果是臺灣國情不同，那政府有責任必須要提出一套我們可行而且又可以保障的制度啊！而不是一直拖延，我現在看到就是無限期拖延，這個是不對的，如果我們真的正視這件事情，立法院什麼事情都是可以辦得到的，都是應該要去做的。","所以我先問一下，剛剛部長有提到你個人是贊成他們應該要有團結權的，但是現在是怎麼去修的問題，到目前為止，你還是認為應該放在公務人員協會法嗎？這邊可以處理嗎？你認為真的可以處理嗎？可以到位嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個部分能不能到位當然就是要跨部、跨院來協商，因為我想之前的草案版本還是有人不滿意，我覺得既然是屆期不連續，退回去以後，我認為現在大家應該儘速地針對各界的意見，包括召委今天排這個會議就是讓大家來陳述意見，我想我們的目標應該是一致的，如何去保障警消人員的團結權，讓他們的聲音能夠被聽到，而且最重要的是怎麼去落實他們的保障。"],["王委員育敏：是。"],["許部長銘春：所以我覺得這個部分其實大家可以儘速地跨部會、跨院來針對大家所在意的這些相關權益事項來討論，我以勞動部的立場，我們是希望儘量朝放寬、朝強化的一個方向來做，像剛剛銓敘部也好，或者今天內政部也有來，大家的方向是一致的，只是要怎麼做，可能更細緻地去討論這些條文。"],["王委員育敏：如果方向是一致，我們就要怎麼做，其實沒那麼困難，現在大家到底最大的癥結點是在哪裡，是不是對於爭議權有所保留？是不是爭議權是最大問題？我問一下次長，就消防人員有團結權、有協商權，你們會有問題嗎？"],["朱次長楠賢：我們在協會法那邊放進去，沒有問題。"],["王委員育敏：都沒有問題，那你們現在唯一有疑慮的是不是就是爭議權、罷工的部分？"],["朱次長楠賢：爭議權是個疑慮，另外就是剛剛部長也報告過，它的法源是來自公務人員任用法，所以我們希望在這個範圍內儘量把它放寬，而不要導到外面去，因為我們還有其他人員，比如監所管理人員還有醫護人員，依照我們的規定，他們都可以組特種協會，你在裡面組OK，如果都拉去工會的話，就會覺得公務人員被撕裂了。"],["王委員育敏：但是現在這一些消防弟兄之所以反對你們協會，就是覺得協會好像沒有辦法跟組工會一樣，那個權利就是不一樣啊，那個落差你們有去瞭解嗎？我覺得最大的癥結恐怕就是在最後他有沒有擁有爭議權，因為有爭議權，他協商、談判的籌碼比較大，沒有爭議權的時候，事實上就還是你們說了算，如果公部門不同意，還是不同意。"],["朱次長楠賢：跟委員報告一下，世界各國警消可以組工會的，也都沒有給爭議權。"],["王委員育敏：好，如果是這樣子的話，組工會沒有爭議權，這樣的模式在臺灣可不可以用？如果你說其他國家是這樣的體例，都沒有開放到爭議權的部分，我們可不可以先跨出一步，就是比照他們可行的模式來做？"],["朱次長楠賢：我們是想說先在協會法裡面把它放寬、放低，然後……"],["王委員育敏：那你們可以放寬到等同他組工會這樣的寬度嗎？"],["朱次長楠賢：這可以再談，我想在現行協會法放寬之後，權益有增加的情況下去談，去運作一陣子，真的沒有辦法運作，再來討論。"],["王委員育敏：那我問一個問題，你們有邀請這些消防弟兄來談這件事嗎？"],["朱次長楠賢：我們……"],["王委員育敏：沒有，沒有對話，我認為這件事情是需要對話的，消防署署長也請上來。"],["朱次長楠賢：消防署應該有。"],["王委員育敏：你剛剛提到有這麼多的縣市都反對，但是你提的是問了誰？是問了你們各地的局長，還是問了縣市首長？你那個資訊要清楚，不要誤導。"],["蕭署長煥章：我們是請教消防局。"],["王委員育敏：是啊，那你不要讓縣市首長背這個鍋啊！你們只是內部調查幾個局長的意見，你不要去代表整個縣市的意見，你們為什麼就不問問消防局弟兄的意見呢？這部分你們又沒有資訊，這就是不對等，你懂嗎？公部門裡面的長官掌握了所有的資源，這個就是基層的這一些消防弟兄他們現在不滿的部分，因為他們的下情完全沒有辦法上達，你看像你們消防署在問意見，你是問局長的意見，你又不去問這一些基層的意見，這樣你得到的訊息，就不是一個平衡的聲音啊，才會有消防弟兄上街頭嘛，所以我認為主管機關在看待這件事情的時候，你要去敏感到那個權力不對等的問題，消防弟兄每天這樣子出勤，出生入死，當他看到了問題，沒有辦法有一個有效的管道去反映、去爭取、去改善，他當然要上街頭啊，就會是這樣子的一個情況嘛。","坦白講，你們現在是很害怕，把工會視為洪水猛獸，事實上有時候不是這樣子，如果你可以好好地跟他們討論，為什麼其他國家可以施行，我們大家好好地坐下來商量，以保障大家權益為一個最大的原則，然後有哪些情況可能在國內現在或許沒有辦法一步到位，大家好好來談，我覺得事情是有解的，而不是用拖的，我現在看到的是大家就拖嘛，反正事件過後，拖個一、兩年沒有人再追，立法院沒有人要排案審查，這件事情就先放著，要不然照道理來講，你們如果覺得放在公務人員協會法是一個解方的話，方案老早就該提出來了，不應該放那麼久，你知道嗎？如果你今天到委員會來，端出一個很好的方案，這些消防弟兄訴求的，在協會這邊多數可以被解決，我覺得那就有一個對話的基礎跟管道，大家其實今天就可以有個很好的討論。","你們回去再想想，禮拜三還要逐條審查，把你們覺得可行的方案拿出來，因為這件事情不是只有立法委員要推而已，你們真正要說服的是每天出生入死的這些消防弟兄，怎麼讓他們感受到我們從中央、從銓敘部、從消防署、從勞動部，大家都想要捍衛他們的權益，這一點要讓他們有感受，這樣才行啊！","接下來，下一張簡報大家可以看到，為什麼現在大家覺得要組工會？你們承諾的東西，其實都沒有做到啊！消防人力嚴重短缺，蔡總統承諾大家每5年補3,000人，這5年來有3,000人嗎？沒有到位啊，有到位嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：報告委員，是到位3,110位，同仁所講的沒有到位，是因為有退休人力的問題。"],["王委員育敏：那就是還是沒有到位啊……"],["蕭署長煥章：所以現在跟委員報告……"],["王委員育敏：你一進一出，不是這樣子算……"],["蕭署長煥章：跟委員報告，現在我們特考班是要招1,000位，警專是要招400位，也就是說1年會有1,400位入訓，今年本來是要入訓1,000位，結果考試只有通過380位，這是目前的問題，這個問題我們也找考試院來看要怎麼克服，考試科目跟考試的分科，我想今年會來克服，明年開始特考班有1,000位的學員，這個部分如果能夠順利到位，我想剛才委員關心的人力問題會逐步來克服。同時跟委員報告，事實上勤休目前的狀況就是透過跟同仁溝通以後，逐2年減少24小時的量……"],["王委員育敏：我知道，你們……"],["蕭署長煥章：其實目前已經減少到176加124小時。"],["王委員育敏：我知道那個部分你們有做部分的改善，但是你看整體的，我們消防人員的服務人口比，跟鄰近的香港、日本、韓國、美國、新加坡比，我們其實還是比人家的狀況、條件差，剛剛署長也坦承嘛，我們喊話要增加，但是比不上退休的，這一來一往之間……"],["蕭署長煥章：退休是六百多位，沒有那麼多啦。"],["王委員育敏：對，但是你還是沒有補足嘛，實況是這樣子……"],["蕭署長煥章：所以我們會開始處理這個區塊。"],["王委員育敏：所以這個就是為什麼基層的消防弟兄，他感受到他的壓力，他想要組工會嘛，因為有些問題的確還是沒有改善，我想我們今天排這個案子就是希望大家好好地來討論，啟動這個討論跟改革，就是不能讓消防弟兄上街頭，我們不希望他們上街頭啊，我們希望他們是在安全的情況底下去幫大家防災、防火，但不是要他們上街頭，好不好？我們一起來努力、改善，然後給消防弟兄更好的保障，謝謝。"],["主席：接著請涂權吉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-16","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王正旭","黃秀芳","林淑芬","牛煦庭","劉建國","陳培瑜","黃國昌","張智倫","李彥秀","邱志偉","陳瑩","楊曜","盧縣一"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134603","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134603_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(二)國民黨黨\n團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條\n及第六條條文修正草案」案、(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」\n案；二、審查(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案、(二)國民\n黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員郭昱晴\n等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員王育敏等18\n人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員馬文君\n等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員邱若華等20人擬\n具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134603_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"152427","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152427","tool":"pyannote","id":"152427-pyannote"},"job_id":"MSN0IGe4l4OBcCQt","queued_at":"2024-05-31 09:03:25","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-05-31 09:05:23","msg":"downloading 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\"start\": 692.99, \"end\": 693.01, \"score\": 0.641}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,829 --> 00:00:10,573\n謝謝主席。我們是不是請許部長還有朱次長。王委員好。部長好。部長你辛苦了。\n\n2\n00:00:18,908 --> 00:00:26,949\n),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案\n\n3\n00:00:48,217 --> 00:00:50,780\n),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具«工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案\n\n4\n00:01:03,616 --> 00:01:03,736\n),委員陳菁徽\n\n5\n00:01:18,866 --> 00:01:44,287\n有三十幾位消防弟兄這個不幸身亡這個都是悲劇但是我們改善的幅度其實並不大那看看他們的工作量這個整個的他的緊急救護跟他的這個整個出動的這個比例其實他的工作量都是在增加的並沒有下降所以在這樣的情況底下我覺得政府是有責任\n\n6\n00:01:45,548 --> 00:02:07,428\n該提出一套更周延的辦法而且要透過立法讓他們的權益是真正獲得保障但是今天我們看到政府部門提出來的都是說不可行不可行就是修改工會法不可行但是我們要看到的是如果你認為工會法不可行那為什麼歐美各國可以\n\n7\n00:02:10,370 --> 00:02:30,303\n如果說臺灣國情不同政府有責任要必須提出一套我們可行而且又可保障的制度而不是一直拖延我現在看到就是無限期拖延這個是不對的如果我們真的正視這件事情立法院什麼事情都是可以辦得到的\n\n8\n00:02:30,943 --> 00:02:34,387\n),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具«工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案。»:\n\n9\n00:02:50,765 --> 00:03:12,740\n除禮嗎?你認為真的可以除禮嗎?對到位嗎?這個部分當然能不能到位就是要跨部、跨院來協商啦。因為我想之前的草案版本還是有人不滿意啦。是。那我覺得既然是這期不連續退回去以後,我覺得應該是現在大家競速了針對各界的意見,包括委員,呃,張經理今天\n\n10\n00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:29,025\n),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案．立法院第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員\n\n11\n00:03:37,227 --> 00:03:39,749\n),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。\n\n12\n00:04:02,623 --> 00:04:17,171\n如果方向是一致我就要怎麼做其實沒那麼困難啊現在大家到底是最大癥結點在哪裡是不是對於爭議權有所保留是不是爭議權是最大的問題我問一下這個次長就是就消防人員他有團結權他有協商權你們會有問題嗎\n\n13\n00:04:20,928 --> 00:04:42,365\n除此之外,我們在協會裡面放進去,沒有問題。都沒有問題。那你們現在唯一有疑慮的是不是就是爭議權的部分,罷工的部分。爭議權是個疑慮,另外就是剛剛部長也報告過,就是說他的法源是來自工人院的用法。所以我們希望在我們這個範圍內,盡量給人家放寬,而不要倒到外面去。\n\n14\n00:04:44,246 --> 00:05:01,773\n公務人員及醫護人員都可以組特種協會,依照規定,所以這樣會變成非常非常的,你如果在裡面組OK,你如果有的時候都拉去當公會的話,就覺得公務人員就撕裂了。\n\n15\n00:05:02,293 --> 00:05:30,915\n但現在這一些小黃弟兄他們之所以反對你們協會就是覺得你們到協會之後好像就是沒有辦法跟主公會一樣那個權利就是不一樣啊那那個落差你們去了解嗎我覺得最大癥結恐怕就是在最後他有沒有擁有爭議權吧因為有爭議權他協商談判的籌碼比較大嘛但是沒有爭議權的時候事實上就是還是你們說了算嗎如果公部門不同意還是不同意\n\n16\n00:05:31,135 --> 00:05:31,596\n主公會沒有爭議權,這樣的模式在臺灣可不可以用嗎?\n\n17\n00:05:45,778 --> 00:06:03,077\n你如果說其他國家是這樣的體力都沒有開放到爭議權的部分那我們可不可以先跨出一步就是說比照他們可行的模式來做現在協議法裡面先把它放寬放低那你們可以放寬到它等同它主攻會同等的這樣的寬嗎\n\n18\n00:06:04,903 --> 00:06:11,348\n我問一個問題,你們有邀請這些消防弟兄來談這件事嗎?沒有。沒有對話。我認為這件事情是需要對話的。\n\n19\n00:06:26,158 --> 00:06:43,692\n校防署署長來也請上來你剛提到說有這麼多的縣市都反對但是你提的是問了誰啊是問了你們校那個各地的局長還是問了縣市首長你那個資訊要清楚不要誤導我們是跟校防局是啊是\n\n20\n00:06:44,392 --> 00:07:00,704\n是啊,那你不要去讓縣市首長背這個鍋啊。局長,你們只是內部調查幾個局長的意見,你不要去代表整個縣市的意見啊。那你們為什麼就不問問消防局弟兄的意見呢?這部分你們又沒有資訊。這就是不對等啊。\n\n21\n00:07:01,701 --> 00:07:26,946\n你懂嗎?就是當公部門裡面的長官你掌握所有的這個資源的時候這個是為什麼基層的這些消防弟兄他們現在不滿的因為他們的下情完全沒有辦法上達你看像你們消防署在問意見你是問局長的意見你又不去問這一些基層的意見這樣你得到的訊息就不是一個平衡的聲音啊所以才會有消防弟兄\n\n22\n00:07:27,446 --> 00:07:27,966\n),委員彭麗玲議員彭麗玲議員彭麗玲議員\n\n23\n00:07:56,838 --> 00:08:21,925\n如果你是可以好好的跟他們討論然後為什麼其他國家可以施行我們好好的來大家坐下來商量就是以保障大家權益為一個最大的原則然後有哪一些情況可能在國內現在或許沒有辦法一步到位大家好好來談我覺得事情是有解的而不是用拖的我現在看到是大家就拖嘛反正時間過後拖個一兩年沒有人在追立法院沒有人要排案審查\n\n24\n00:08:22,645 --> 00:08:30,790\n),委員王育敏等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委\n\n25\n00:08:42,577 --> 00:09:06,683\n我覺得那就一個對話的基礎跟管道大家其實今天就可以有一個很好的討論你們回去再想禮拜三還要逐條審查把你們的方案你們覺得可行的拿出來因為這件事情不是只有立法院委員要推而已你們真正要說服的是每天出生入死這些消防弟兄怎麼感受到我們從中央從權敘部從消防署從勞動部大家都是想要捍衛他們的權益的\n\n26\n00:09:08,562 --> 00:09:36,399\n這一點要讓他們有感受這個才行接下來下一張大家可以看到為什麼現在大家覺得這個要組工會我們承諾的東西其實都沒有做到消防人力嚴重短缺蔡總統承諾大家每五年補三千人這五年來有三千人嗎沒有到位啊有到位嗎是到位三千一百一十位那同仁所講的沒有到位是因為有退休人力的問題\n\n27\n00:09:37,213 --> 00:09:47,601\n),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．\n\n28\n00:10:05,575 --> 00:10:23,047\n),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。adequa班有一千位的學員。那這個部分如果說能夠順利到位,我想剛剛委員關心的人力的問題會逐步來做一個克服。那同時剛剛委員跟委員報告就是說,消防局院的溝通事實上行修目前的狀況就是透過跟同仁溝通以後逐兩年\n\n29\n00:10:24,008 --> 00:10:28,174\n),委員王育敏等196人擬具、「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案。厲委員王育敏等196人擬具、「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案。厲委員\n\n30\n00:10:42,392 --> 00:10:42,692\n議員陳菁徽等18人擬具\n\n31\n00:11:02,580 --> 00:11:30,615\n),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案案中的負擔和壓力,他想要組工會嘛,因為有些問題的確還是沒有持續的改善。那我想我們今天排這個案子,就是希望大家好好的來討論,啟動這個討論跟改革,就是不能讓這個消防弟兄他們是上街頭,我們不希望他上街頭啊,我們希望他是在安全的情況底下去幫大家防災防火,但是不是要他們上街頭好不好,我們一起來努力來改善\n\n32\n00:11:31,015 --> 00:11:33,010\n),委員然後給消防弟兄更好的保障謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4829\t10573\t謝謝主席。我們是不是請許部長還有朱次長。王委員好。部長好。部長你辛苦了。\n18908\t26949\t),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案\n48217\t50780\t),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案\n63616\t63736\t),委員陳菁徽\n78866\t104287\t有三十幾位消防弟兄這個不幸身亡這個都是悲劇但是我們改善的幅度其實並不大那看看他們的工作量這個整個的他的緊急救護跟他的這個整個出動的這個比例其實他的工作量都是在增加的並沒有下降所以在這樣的情況底下我覺得政府是有責任\n105548\t127428\t該提出一套更周延的辦法而且要透過立法讓他們的權益是真正獲得保障但是今天我們看到政府部門提出來的都是說不可行不可行就是修改工會法不可行但是我們要看到的是如果你認為工會法不可行那為什麼歐美各國可以\n130370\t150303\t如果說臺灣國情不同政府有責任要必須提出一套我們可行而且又可保障的制度而不是一直拖延我現在看到就是無限期拖延這個是不對的如果我們真的正視這件事情立法院什麼事情都是可以辦得到的\n150943\t154387\t),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案。 »:\n170765\t192740\t除禮嗎?你認為真的可以除禮嗎?對到位嗎?這個部分當然能不能到位就是要跨部、跨院來協商啦。因為我想之前的草案版本還是有人不滿意啦。是。那我覺得既然是這期不連續退回去以後,我覺得應該是現在大家競速了針對各界的意見,包括委員,呃,張經理今天\n193320\t209025\t), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案．立法院第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員\n217227\t219749\t),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。\n242623\t257171\t如果方向是一致我就要怎麼做其實沒那麼困難啊現在大家到底是最大癥結點在哪裡是不是對於爭議權有所保留是不是爭議權是最大的問題我問一下這個次長就是就消防人員他有團結權他有協商權你們會有問題嗎\n260928\t282365\t除此之外,我們在協會裡面放進去,沒有問題。都沒有問題。那你們現在唯一有疑慮的是不是就是爭議權的部分,罷工的部分。爭議權是個疑慮,另外就是剛剛部長也報告過,就是說他的法源是來自工人院的用法。所以我們希望在我們這個範圍內,盡量給人家放寬,而不要倒到外面去。\n284246\t301773\t公務人員及醫護人員都可以組特種協會,依照規定,所以這樣會變成非常非常的,你如果在裡面組OK,你如果有的時候都拉去當公會的話,就覺得公務人員就撕裂了。\n302293\t330915\t但現在這一些小黃弟兄他們之所以反對你們協會就是覺得你們到協會之後好像就是沒有辦法跟主公會一樣那個權利就是不一樣啊那那個落差你們去了解嗎我覺得最大癥結恐怕就是在最後他有沒有擁有爭議權吧因為有爭議權他協商談判的籌碼比較大嘛但是沒有爭議權的時候事實上就是還是你們說了算嗎如果公部門不同意還是不同意\n331135\t331596\t主公會沒有爭議權,這樣的模式在臺灣可不可以用嗎?\n345778\t363077\t你如果說其他國家是這樣的體力都沒有開放到爭議權的部分那我們可不可以先跨出一步就是說比照他們可行的模式來做現在協議法裡面先把它放寬放低那你們可以放寬到它等同它主攻會同等的這樣的寬嗎\n364903\t371348\t我問一個問題,你們有邀請這些消防弟兄來談這件事嗎?沒有。沒有對話。我認為這件事情是需要對話的。\n386158\t403692\t校防署署長來也請上來你剛提到說有這麼多的縣市都反對但是你提的是問了誰啊是問了你們校那個各地的局長還是問了縣市首長你那個資訊要清楚不要誤導我們是跟校防局是啊是\n404392\t420704\t是啊,那你不要去讓縣市首長背這個鍋啊。局長,你們只是內部調查幾個局長的意見,你不要去代表整個縣市的意見啊。那你們為什麼就不問問消防局弟兄的意見呢?這部分你們又沒有資訊。這就是不對等啊。\n421701\t446946\t你懂嗎?就是當公部門裡面的長官你掌握所有的這個資源的時候這個是為什麼基層的這些消防弟兄他們現在不滿的因為他們的下情完全沒有辦法上達你看像你們消防署在問意見你是問局長的意見你又不去問這一些基層的意見這樣你得到的訊息就不是一個平衡的聲音啊所以才會有消防弟兄\n447446\t447966\t),委員彭麗玲議員彭麗玲議員彭麗玲議員\n476838\t501925\t如果你是可以好好的跟他們討論然後為什麼其他國家可以施行我們好好的來大家坐下來商量就是以保障大家權益為一個最大的原則然後有哪一些情況可能在國內現在或許沒有辦法一步到位大家好好來談我覺得事情是有解的而不是用拖的我現在看到是大家就拖嘛反正時間過後拖個一兩年沒有人在追立法院沒有人要排案審查\n502645\t510790\t), 委員王育敏等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委\n522577\t546683\t我覺得那就一個對話的基礎跟管道大家其實今天就可以有一個很好的討論你們回去再想禮拜三還要逐條審查把你們的方案你們覺得可行的拿出來因為這件事情不是只有立法院委員要推而已你們真正要說服的是每天出生入死這些消防弟兄怎麼感受到我們從中央從權敘部從消防署從勞動部大家都是想要捍衛他們的權益的\n548562\t576399\t這一點要讓他們有感受這個才行接下來下一張大家可以看到為什麼現在大家覺得這個要組工會我們承諾的東西其實都沒有做到消防人力嚴重短缺蔡總統承諾大家每五年補三千人這五年來有三千人嗎沒有到位啊有到位嗎是到位三千一百一十位那同仁所講的沒有到位是因為有退休人力的問題\n577213\t587601\t), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．\n605575\t623047\t),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。adequa班有一千位的學員。那這個部分如果說能夠順利到位,我想剛剛委員關心的人力的問題會逐步來做一個克服。那同時剛剛委員跟委員報告就是說,消防局院的溝通事實上行修目前的狀況就是透過跟同仁溝通以後逐兩年\n624008\t628174\t),委員王育敏等196人擬具、「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案。厲 委員王育敏等196人擬具、「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案。厲 委員\n642392\t642692\t議員陳菁徽等18人擬具\n662580\t690615\t),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案案中的負擔和壓力,他想要組工會嘛,因為有些問題的確還是沒有持續的改善。那我想我們今天排這個案子,就是希望大家好好的來討論,啟動這個討論跟改革,就是不能讓這個消防弟兄他們是上街頭,我們不希望他上街頭啊,我們希望他是在安全的情況底下去幫大家防災防火,但是不是要他們上街頭好不好,我們一起來努力來改善\n691015\t693010\t),委員然後給消防弟兄更好的保障謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席。我們是不是請許部長還有朱次長。王委員好。部長好。部長你辛苦了。\n),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案\n),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案\n),委員陳菁徽\n有三十幾位消防弟兄這個不幸身亡這個都是悲劇但是我們改善的幅度其實並不大那看看他們的工作量這個整個的他的緊急救護跟他的這個整個出動的這個比例其實他的工作量都是在增加的並沒有下降所以在這樣的情況底下我覺得政府是有責任\n該提出一套更周延的辦法而且要透過立法讓他們的權益是真正獲得保障但是今天我們看到政府部門提出來的都是說不可行不可行就是修改工會法不可行但是我們要看到的是如果你認為工會法不可行那為什麼歐美各國可以\n如果說臺灣國情不同政府有責任要必須提出一套我們可行而且又可保障的制度而不是一直拖延我現在看到就是無限期拖延這個是不對的如果我們真的正視這件事情立法院什麼事情都是可以辦得到的\n),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案。 »:\n除禮嗎?你認為真的可以除禮嗎?對到位嗎?這個部分當然能不能到位就是要跨部、跨院來協商啦。因為我想之前的草案版本還是有人不滿意啦。是。那我覺得既然是這期不連續退回去以後,我覺得應該是現在大家競速了針對各界的意見,包括委員,呃,張經理今天\n), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案．立法院第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員\n),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。\n如果方向是一致我就要怎麼做其實沒那麼困難啊現在大家到底是最大癥結點在哪裡是不是對於爭議權有所保留是不是爭議權是最大的問題我問一下這個次長就是就消防人員他有團結權他有協商權你們會有問題嗎\n除此之外,我們在協會裡面放進去,沒有問題。都沒有問題。那你們現在唯一有疑慮的是不是就是爭議權的部分,罷工的部分。爭議權是個疑慮,另外就是剛剛部長也報告過,就是說他的法源是來自工人院的用法。所以我們希望在我們這個範圍內,盡量給人家放寬,而不要倒到外面去。\n公務人員及醫護人員都可以組特種協會,依照規定,所以這樣會變成非常非常的,你如果在裡面組OK,你如果有的時候都拉去當公會的話,就覺得公務人員就撕裂了。\n但現在這一些小黃弟兄他們之所以反對你們協會就是覺得你們到協會之後好像就是沒有辦法跟主公會一樣那個權利就是不一樣啊那那個落差你們去了解嗎我覺得最大癥結恐怕就是在最後他有沒有擁有爭議權吧因為有爭議權他協商談判的籌碼比較大嘛但是沒有爭議權的時候事實上就是還是你們說了算嗎如果公部門不同意還是不同意\n主公會沒有爭議權,這樣的模式在臺灣可不可以用嗎?\n你如果說其他國家是這樣的體力都沒有開放到爭議權的部分那我們可不可以先跨出一步就是說比照他們可行的模式來做現在協議法裡面先把它放寬放低那你們可以放寬到它等同它主攻會同等的這樣的寬嗎\n我問一個問題,你們有邀請這些消防弟兄來談這件事嗎?沒有。沒有對話。我認為這件事情是需要對話的。\n校防署署長來也請上來你剛提到說有這麼多的縣市都反對但是你提的是問了誰啊是問了你們校那個各地的局長還是問了縣市首長你那個資訊要清楚不要誤導我們是跟校防局是啊是\n是啊,那你不要去讓縣市首長背這個鍋啊。局長,你們只是內部調查幾個局長的意見,你不要去代表整個縣市的意見啊。那你們為什麼就不問問消防局弟兄的意見呢?這部分你們又沒有資訊。這就是不對等啊。\n你懂嗎?就是當公部門裡面的長官你掌握所有的這個資源的時候這個是為什麼基層的這些消防弟兄他們現在不滿的因為他們的下情完全沒有辦法上達你看像你們消防署在問意見你是問局長的意見你又不去問這一些基層的意見這樣你得到的訊息就不是一個平衡的聲音啊所以才會有消防弟兄\n),委員彭麗玲議員彭麗玲議員彭麗玲議員\n如果你是可以好好的跟他們討論然後為什麼其他國家可以施行我們好好的來大家坐下來商量就是以保障大家權益為一個最大的原則然後有哪一些情況可能在國內現在或許沒有辦法一步到位大家好好來談我覺得事情是有解的而不是用拖的我現在看到是大家就拖嘛反正時間過後拖個一兩年沒有人在追立法院沒有人要排案審查\n), 委員王育敏等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委\n我覺得那就一個對話的基礎跟管道大家其實今天就可以有一個很好的討論你們回去再想禮拜三還要逐條審查把你們的方案你們覺得可行的拿出來因為這件事情不是只有立法院委員要推而已你們真正要說服的是每天出生入死這些消防弟兄怎麼感受到我們從中央從權敘部從消防署從勞動部大家都是想要捍衛他們的權益的\n這一點要讓他們有感受這個才行接下來下一張大家可以看到為什麼現在大家覺得這個要組工會我們承諾的東西其實都沒有做到消防人力嚴重短缺蔡總統承諾大家每五年補三千人這五年來有三千人嗎沒有到位啊有到位嗎是到位三千一百一十位那同仁所講的沒有到位是因為有退休人力的問題\n), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．\n),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。adequa班有一千位的學員。那這個部分如果說能夠順利到位,我想剛剛委員關心的人力的問題會逐步來做一個克服。那同時剛剛委員跟委員報告就是說,消防局院的溝通事實上行修目前的狀況就是透過跟同仁溝通以後逐兩年\n),委員王育敏等196人擬具、「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案。厲 委員王育敏等196人擬具、「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案。厲 委員\n議員陳菁徽等18人擬具\n),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案案中的負擔和壓力,他想要組工會嘛,因為有些問題的確還是沒有持續的改善。那我想我們今天排這個案子,就是希望大家好好的來討論,啟動這個討論跟改革,就是不能讓這個消防弟兄他們是上街頭,我們不希望他上街頭啊,我們希望他是在安全的情況底下去幫大家防災防火,但是不是要他們上街頭好不好,我們一起來努力來改善\n),委員然後給消防弟兄更好的保障謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.829 --> 00:10.573\n謝謝主席。我們是不是請許部長還有朱次長。王委員好。部長好。部長你辛苦了。\n\n00:18.908 --> 00:26.949\n),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案\n\n00:48.217 --> 00:50.780\n),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具«工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案\n\n01:03.616 --> 01:03.736\n),委員陳菁徽\n\n01:18.866 --> 01:44.287\n有三十幾位消防弟兄這個不幸身亡這個都是悲劇但是我們改善的幅度其實並不大那看看他們的工作量這個整個的他的緊急救護跟他的這個整個出動的這個比例其實他的工作量都是在增加的並沒有下降所以在這樣的情況底下我覺得政府是有責任\n\n01:45.548 --> 02:07.428\n該提出一套更周延的辦法而且要透過立法讓他們的權益是真正獲得保障但是今天我們看到政府部門提出來的都是說不可行不可行就是修改工會法不可行但是我們要看到的是如果你認為工會法不可行那為什麼歐美各國可以\n\n02:10.370 --> 02:30.303\n如果說臺灣國情不同政府有責任要必須提出一套我們可行而且又可保障的制度而不是一直拖延我現在看到就是無限期拖延這個是不對的如果我們真的正視這件事情立法院什麼事情都是可以辦得到的\n\n02:30.943 --> 02:34.387\n),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具«工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案。»:\n\n02:50.765 --> 03:12.740\n除禮嗎?你認為真的可以除禮嗎?對到位嗎?這個部分當然能不能到位就是要跨部、跨院來協商啦。因為我想之前的草案版本還是有人不滿意啦。是。那我覺得既然是這期不連續退回去以後,我覺得應該是現在大家競速了針對各界的意見,包括委員,呃,張經理今天\n\n03:13.320 --> 03:29.025\n),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案．立法院第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員\n\n03:37.227 --> 03:39.749\n),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。\n\n04:02.623 --> 04:17.171\n如果方向是一致我就要怎麼做其實沒那麼困難啊現在大家到底是最大癥結點在哪裡是不是對於爭議權有所保留是不是爭議權是最大的問題我問一下這個次長就是就消防人員他有團結權他有協商權你們會有問題嗎\n\n04:20.928 --> 04:42.365\n除此之外,我們在協會裡面放進去,沒有問題。都沒有問題。那你們現在唯一有疑慮的是不是就是爭議權的部分,罷工的部分。爭議權是個疑慮,另外就是剛剛部長也報告過,就是說他的法源是來自工人院的用法。所以我們希望在我們這個範圍內,盡量給人家放寬,而不要倒到外面去。\n\n04:44.246 --> 05:01.773\n公務人員及醫護人員都可以組特種協會,依照規定,所以這樣會變成非常非常的,你如果在裡面組OK,你如果有的時候都拉去當公會的話,就覺得公務人員就撕裂了。\n\n05:02.293 --> 05:30.915\n但現在這一些小黃弟兄他們之所以反對你們協會就是覺得你們到協會之後好像就是沒有辦法跟主公會一樣那個權利就是不一樣啊那那個落差你們去了解嗎我覺得最大癥結恐怕就是在最後他有沒有擁有爭議權吧因為有爭議權他協商談判的籌碼比較大嘛但是沒有爭議權的時候事實上就是還是你們說了算嗎如果公部門不同意還是不同意\n\n05:31.135 --> 05:31.596\n主公會沒有爭議權,這樣的模式在臺灣可不可以用嗎?\n\n05:45.778 --> 06:03.077\n你如果說其他國家是這樣的體力都沒有開放到爭議權的部分那我們可不可以先跨出一步就是說比照他們可行的模式來做現在協議法裡面先把它放寬放低那你們可以放寬到它等同它主攻會同等的這樣的寬嗎\n\n06:04.903 --> 06:11.348\n我問一個問題,你們有邀請這些消防弟兄來談這件事嗎?沒有。沒有對話。我認為這件事情是需要對話的。\n\n06:26.158 --> 06:43.692\n校防署署長來也請上來你剛提到說有這麼多的縣市都反對但是你提的是問了誰啊是問了你們校那個各地的局長還是問了縣市首長你那個資訊要清楚不要誤導我們是跟校防局是啊是\n\n06:44.392 --> 07:00.704\n是啊,那你不要去讓縣市首長背這個鍋啊。局長,你們只是內部調查幾個局長的意見,你不要去代表整個縣市的意見啊。那你們為什麼就不問問消防局弟兄的意見呢?這部分你們又沒有資訊。這就是不對等啊。\n\n07:01.701 --> 07:26.946\n你懂嗎?就是當公部門裡面的長官你掌握所有的這個資源的時候這個是為什麼基層的這些消防弟兄他們現在不滿的因為他們的下情完全沒有辦法上達你看像你們消防署在問意見你是問局長的意見你又不去問這一些基層的意見這樣你得到的訊息就不是一個平衡的聲音啊所以才會有消防弟兄\n\n07:27.446 --> 07:27.966\n),委員彭麗玲議員彭麗玲議員彭麗玲議員\n\n07:56.838 --> 08:21.925\n如果你是可以好好的跟他們討論然後為什麼其他國家可以施行我們好好的來大家坐下來商量就是以保障大家權益為一個最大的原則然後有哪一些情況可能在國內現在或許沒有辦法一步到位大家好好來談我覺得事情是有解的而不是用拖的我現在看到是大家就拖嘛反正時間過後拖個一兩年沒有人在追立法院沒有人要排案審查\n\n08:22.645 --> 08:30.790\n),委員王育敏等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委\n\n08:42.577 --> 09:06.683\n我覺得那就一個對話的基礎跟管道大家其實今天就可以有一個很好的討論你們回去再想禮拜三還要逐條審查把你們的方案你們覺得可行的拿出來因為這件事情不是只有立法院委員要推而已你們真正要說服的是每天出生入死這些消防弟兄怎麼感受到我們從中央從權敘部從消防署從勞動部大家都是想要捍衛他們的權益的\n\n09:08.562 --> 09:36.399\n這一點要讓他們有感受這個才行接下來下一張大家可以看到為什麼現在大家覺得這個要組工會我們承諾的東西其實都沒有做到消防人力嚴重短缺蔡總統承諾大家每五年補三千人這五年來有三千人嗎沒有到位啊有到位嗎是到位三千一百一十位那同仁所講的沒有到位是因為有退休人力的問題\n\n09:37.213 --> 09:47.601\n),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．\n\n10:05.575 --> 10:23.047\n),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。adequa班有一千位的學員。那這個部分如果說能夠順利到位,我想剛剛委員關心的人力的問題會逐步來做一個克服。那同時剛剛委員跟委員報告就是說,消防局院的溝通事實上行修目前的狀況就是透過跟同仁溝通以後逐兩年\n\n10:24.008 --> 10:28.174\n),委員王育敏等196人擬具、「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案。厲委員王育敏等196人擬具、「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案。厲委員\n\n10:42.392 --> 10:42.692\n議員陳菁徽等18人擬具\n\n11:02.580 --> 11:30.615\n),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案案中的負擔和壓力,他想要組工會嘛,因為有些問題的確還是沒有持續的改善。那我想我們今天排這個案子,就是希望大家好好的來討論,啟動這個討論跟改革,就是不能讓這個消防弟兄他們是上街頭,我們不希望他上街頭啊,我們希望他是在安全的情況底下去幫大家防災防火,但是不是要他們上街頭好不好,我們一起來努力來改善\n\n11:31.015 --> 11:33.010\n),委員然後給消防弟兄更好的保障謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.829,"end":10.573,"text":"謝謝主席。我們是不是請許部長還有朱次長。王委員好。部長好。部長你辛苦了。"},{"start":18.908,"end":26.949,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":48.217,"end":50.78,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":63.616,"end":63.736,"text":"),委員陳菁徽"},{"start":78.866,"end":104.287,"text":"有三十幾位消防弟兄這個不幸身亡這個都是悲劇但是我們改善的幅度其實並不大那看看他們的工作量這個整個的他的緊急救護跟他的這個整個出動的這個比例其實他的工作量都是在增加的並沒有下降所以在這樣的情況底下我覺得政府是有責任"},{"start":105.548,"end":127.428,"text":"該提出一套更周延的辦法而且要透過立法讓他們的權益是真正獲得保障但是今天我們看到政府部門提出來的都是說不可行不可行就是修改工會法不可行但是我們要看到的是如果你認為工會法不可行那為什麼歐美各國可以"},{"start":130.37,"end":150.303,"text":"如果說臺灣國情不同政府有責任要必須提出一套我們可行而且又可保障的制度而不是一直拖延我現在看到就是無限期拖延這個是不對的如果我們真的正視這件事情立法院什麼事情都是可以辦得到的"},{"start":150.943,"end":154.387,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案。 »:"},{"start":170.765,"end":192.74,"text":"除禮嗎?你認為真的可以除禮嗎?對到位嗎?這個部分當然能不能到位就是要跨部、跨院來協商啦。因為我想之前的草案版本還是有人不滿意啦。是。那我覺得既然是這期不連續退回去以後,我覺得應該是現在大家競速了針對各界的意見,包括委員,呃,張經理今天"},{"start":193.32,"end":209.025,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案．立法院第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員"},{"start":217.227,"end":219.749,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":242.623,"end":257.171,"text":"如果方向是一致我就要怎麼做其實沒那麼困難啊現在大家到底是最大癥結點在哪裡是不是對於爭議權有所保留是不是爭議權是最大的問題我問一下這個次長就是就消防人員他有團結權他有協商權你們會有問題嗎"},{"start":260.928,"end":282.365,"text":"除此之外,我們在協會裡面放進去,沒有問題。都沒有問題。那你們現在唯一有疑慮的是不是就是爭議權的部分,罷工的部分。爭議權是個疑慮,另外就是剛剛部長也報告過,就是說他的法源是來自工人院的用法。所以我們希望在我們這個範圍內,盡量給人家放寬,而不要倒到外面去。"},{"start":284.246,"end":301.773,"text":"公務人員及醫護人員都可以組特種協會,依照規定,所以這樣會變成非常非常的,你如果在裡面組OK,你如果有的時候都拉去當公會的話,就覺得公務人員就撕裂了。"},{"start":302.293,"end":330.915,"text":"但現在這一些小黃弟兄他們之所以反對你們協會就是覺得你們到協會之後好像就是沒有辦法跟主公會一樣那個權利就是不一樣啊那那個落差你們去了解嗎我覺得最大癥結恐怕就是在最後他有沒有擁有爭議權吧因為有爭議權他協商談判的籌碼比較大嘛但是沒有爭議權的時候事實上就是還是你們說了算嗎如果公部門不同意還是不同意"},{"start":331.135,"end":331.596,"text":"主公會沒有爭議權,這樣的模式在臺灣可不可以用嗎?"},{"start":345.778,"end":363.077,"text":"你如果說其他國家是這樣的體力都沒有開放到爭議權的部分那我們可不可以先跨出一步就是說比照他們可行的模式來做現在協議法裡面先把它放寬放低那你們可以放寬到它等同它主攻會同等的這樣的寬嗎"},{"start":364.903,"end":371.348,"text":"我問一個問題,你們有邀請這些消防弟兄來談這件事嗎?沒有。沒有對話。我認為這件事情是需要對話的。"},{"start":386.158,"end":403.692,"text":"校防署署長來也請上來你剛提到說有這麼多的縣市都反對但是你提的是問了誰啊是問了你們校那個各地的局長還是問了縣市首長你那個資訊要清楚不要誤導我們是跟校防局是啊是"},{"start":404.392,"end":420.704,"text":"是啊,那你不要去讓縣市首長背這個鍋啊。局長,你們只是內部調查幾個局長的意見,你不要去代表整個縣市的意見啊。那你們為什麼就不問問消防局弟兄的意見呢?這部分你們又沒有資訊。這就是不對等啊。"},{"start":421.701,"end":446.946,"text":"你懂嗎?就是當公部門裡面的長官你掌握所有的這個資源的時候這個是為什麼基層的這些消防弟兄他們現在不滿的因為他們的下情完全沒有辦法上達你看像你們消防署在問意見你是問局長的意見你又不去問這一些基層的意見這樣你得到的訊息就不是一個平衡的聲音啊所以才會有消防弟兄"},{"start":447.446,"end":447.966,"text":"),委員彭麗玲議員彭麗玲議員彭麗玲議員"},{"start":476.838,"end":501.925,"text":"如果你是可以好好的跟他們討論然後為什麼其他國家可以施行我們好好的來大家坐下來商量就是以保障大家權益為一個最大的原則然後有哪一些情況可能在國內現在或許沒有辦法一步到位大家好好來談我覺得事情是有解的而不是用拖的我現在看到是大家就拖嘛反正時間過後拖個一兩年沒有人在追立法院沒有人要排案審查"},{"start":502.645,"end":510.79,"text":"), 委員王育敏等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委"},{"start":522.577,"end":546.683,"text":"我覺得那就一個對話的基礎跟管道大家其實今天就可以有一個很好的討論你們回去再想禮拜三還要逐條審查把你們的方案你們覺得可行的拿出來因為這件事情不是只有立法院委員要推而已你們真正要說服的是每天出生入死這些消防弟兄怎麼感受到我們從中央從權敘部從消防署從勞動部大家都是想要捍衛他們的權益的"},{"start":548.562,"end":576.399,"text":"這一點要讓他們有感受這個才行接下來下一張大家可以看到為什麼現在大家覺得這個要組工會我們承諾的東西其實都沒有做到消防人力嚴重短缺蔡總統承諾大家每五年補三千人這五年來有三千人嗎沒有到位啊有到位嗎是到位三千一百一十位那同仁所講的沒有到位是因為有退休人力的問題"},{"start":577.213,"end":587.601,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．"},{"start":605.575,"end":623.047,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。adequa班有一千位的學員。那這個部分如果說能夠順利到位,我想剛剛委員關心的人力的問題會逐步來做一個克服。那同時剛剛委員跟委員報告就是說,消防局院的溝通事實上行修目前的狀況就是透過跟同仁溝通以後逐兩年"},{"start":624.008,"end":628.174,"text":"),委員王育敏等196人擬具、「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案。厲 委員王育敏等196人擬具、「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案。厲 委員"},{"start":642.392,"end":642.692,"text":"議員陳菁徽等18人擬具"},{"start":662.58,"end":690.615,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案案中的負擔和壓力,他想要組工會嘛,因為有些問題的確還是沒有持續的改善。那我想我們今天排這個案子,就是希望大家好好的來討論,啟動這個討論跟改革,就是不能讓這個消防弟兄他們是上街頭,我們不希望他上街頭啊,我們希望他是在安全的情況底下去幫大家防災防火,但是不是要他們上街頭好不好,我們一起來努力來改善"},{"start":691.015,"end":693.01,"text":"),委員然後給消防弟兄更好的保障謝謝"}]}}}}