{"id":152455,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152455","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e1734d2ab3f7fbfd8fa8dab4a2946638eec232d94006c6d412c4d354b032749305e4a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:46:16 - 11:56:39","影片長度":"00:10:23","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-16"},"duration":623,"end_time":"2024-05-13T11:56:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T11:46:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":903,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時46分）謝謝主席，部長有請。"],["主席：好，有請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長午安。我們就直接進入主題，今天兩個部分，一個是剛剛也有委員試圖幫我們解釋勞基法修正的一些東西，我們做一些釐清。第一個，請問部長，試用期如果法制化的話，會不會導致低於最低工資22K這樣的情況重新出現？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，依目前勞基法，我們的薪資就是不能低於最低工資，絕對不低於。"],["牛委員煦庭：絕對不低於勞基法的最低保障，對不對？所以不會有22K的問題嘛，即便試用期法制化之後……"],["許部長銘春：因為法律規定不能……"],["牛委員煦庭：因為法律之間不會彼此矛盾，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝，部長不會，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：就不會啦！我就跟你說……"],["牛委員煦庭：不會，好，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：現在所有的薪資就是不能低於基本工資啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：不會低於勞基法的保障嘛，沒錯吧？這是第一個。"],["許部長銘春：對，重點在於是不是要打八折的問題啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：你先聽我講完嘛！謝謝你打臉王定宇委員，因為他造謠會22K，但沒有這個事嘛，因為法律之間不會彼此牴觸。當然八成樓地板的問題，有可能導致定錨效應，這個本席願意承認，但是我們總要把事情講清楚，我們修這個法的初衷，我請部長看一下這個表格裡面的範例，這幾個都是最近幾年勞資爭議的一些判例。你可以看到有些是真正很弱勢的勞工，比如說，現場工程師應聘薪資4萬5,000，約定薪資2萬6,400，那是因為去年還沒有調到2萬7,000啦；油罐車司機應聘薪資4萬，約定薪資2萬6,400；國中英文輔導老師，他4天就離職了，所以試用期長度大概不只4天，但是一樣應聘薪資4萬，約定薪資2萬6,500；技術員3萬4,470到5萬0,930不等，因為看表現決定。業務工程人員應聘薪資4萬，約定薪資2萬5,000，這些案例可能不多，但是部長，既然都打了勞資爭議的官司，你覺得他們存不存在？應該存在對不對？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為本來試用期勞基法是沒有規定，但是我們就是雙方同意、勞僱雙方同意……"],["牛委員煦庭：勞僱雙方同意對不對？"],["許部長銘春：我們也尊重，但是所有的試用期，勞工的保障都是要按照勞基法。"],["牛委員煦庭：不低於勞基法，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對，都要按照勞基法。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以這些基本上就是勞基法的最低保障嘛！我今天提這幾個判例，他2萬6,000是比基本工資2萬7,000低，因為這是112年那個時候，也就是在發生的當下，他就是勞基法的最低工資。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這樣下來，如果鼓勵大家用試用期，就變成會讓雇主，以後所有勞工來我都先試用3個月，而不是看你的專業、能力、技能來決定薪資。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個等一下，時間長短，這些東西我們後面再討論……"],["許部長銘春：我覺得這個部分是……委員，我相信你出發點是好的，但是……"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝部長。"],["許部長銘春：我是要提醒您，一定要注意勞工的權益。"],["牛委員煦庭：我知道，內容我們待會會討論，但我只是要藉這樣子的一個機會，部長，有這樣子的一群勞工，他人數少，但他是真正弱勢中的弱勢啊！也許你可以講八成，這個數字有點太危險，有可能茲事體大，這本席願意承認，但是我們修這個法的初衷，是要照顧這一群陰影裡面最弱勢的勞工，希望大家可以瞭解。第二個，我要問部長的問題，試用期有沒有違法？目前的狀況，試用期是不是違法的行為？"],["許部長銘春：沒有，剛才我不是講過了嗎？"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有違法對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：法無明文，不表示違法嘛，部長，這樣我們是不是講的比較清楚？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，它的約定我們是尊重，但是我剛剛講重點在於……"],["牛委員煦庭：尊重。不要低於勞基法……"],["許部長銘春：約定的話，你不能……"],["牛委員煦庭：不能低於勞基法的待遇嘛！"],["許部長銘春：因為我們勞基法沒有說試用期的勞工就可以不適用勞基法的規範……"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我知道，所以……"],["許部長銘春：所以在勞基法上沒有所謂試用期、非試用期的勞工，我簡單這樣子講，你可以約定……"],["牛委員煦庭：可以約定嘛！所以就不是違法行為，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對，不是違法，但是……"],["牛委員煦庭：不是違法，好，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：但是所有的規範……"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝部長。"],["許部長銘春：所有規範只要是照勞基法就可以了。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝部長打臉林靜儀，因為他講試用期是違法……"],["許部長銘春：委員不要講這種打臉不打臉，我現在只是……"],["牛委員煦庭：因為他講說試用期是違法的，今天我們討論法案的內容跟細節……"],["許部長銘春：不是，委員你們的政治攻防是另外一回事，但是我現在講的是法律的規範，我不希望你說我打臉誰，我覺得這樣不好啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：好，沒關係，我也不希望他們用造謠的方式來抹黑我的法案……"],["許部長銘春：我用依法……"],["牛委員煦庭：但沒關係，我們進入實際上的討論……"],["許部長銘春：但是我要跟委員提醒，這個打八折對勞工權益的減損，你真的要慎思啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：我已經公開說了，沒有八折的問題，我們就把這個東西拿掉，因為爭議很大，我也承認這個修法的過程中還需要審慎討論……"],["許部長銘春：因為我覺得……"],["牛委員煦庭：但是今天要借用一點點時間，我還有問題要問，現行試用期法無明文規定，你剛剛也講這不是違法，那會不會衍生勞資爭議？有可能，對不對？因為講不清楚嘛！按照現行的法律，是不是勞資雙方講好就好？可是這個講好，口頭講算不算講好？有可能，對不對？如果講好之後反悔，大家不滿意，是不是就會造成勞資的糾紛？應該會吧？來，請部長看一下這個判例，這個判例就是寫說，除非有明確規定、有明文規定，否則這個叫職訓啊！不叫試用啊！這個沒有勞動契約的時候就不是僱傭關係，就會出現這樣子的勞資爭議，所以我今天提這個試用期法制化的概念是因為目前勞資的情況，權利義務關係不明確啊！","第一個問題我要問部長，部長，按現行的狀況下，時間有沒有明文規定？沒有，對不對？有可能3個月、有可能6個月跟9個月，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：不是，報告委員，要合理啦！不能約定試用期1年、半年，這不合理吧！"],["牛委員煦庭：對，現行是不是講好就好？那有沒有可能超過3個月或者是沒完沒了？有可能有極端的狀況，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：不可能，可能會遇到一些……"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。第二個，我要問的是，以現在勞動部的瞭解，各行各業、百工百業是不是每一個公司都可以很清楚地告訴他的勞工做了哪些事可以通過試用期？你有辦法保證大家都很好的做到這件事嗎？應該有困難，對不對？部長，回答一下嘛！"],["許部長銘春：委員，我不知道你的意思是什麼？"],["牛委員煦庭：我的意思是，大家約定一個試用期的期間，對不對？但是他總要通過一些事情才能夠轉正嘛！這個中間轉正的……"],["許部長銘春：那就看他們雙方約定的內容啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：約定對不對？這個約定有沒有明確？以勞動部目前掌握，它是明確的還是不明確的？不一定明確，對不對？有些公司可能很明顯簽個契約，有些是不是講一講……"],["許部長銘春：對……"],["牛委員煦庭：那講一講，萬一兩邊認知不一樣，是不是也會變成勞資爭議？"],["許部長銘春：是啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：是，對不對？所以如何通過？這權利義務關係不明確嘛！","第三個，我就要問了，是不是每一個在試用期中討論這些都可以好聚好散？勞工都可以拿到資遣費？不一定喔！在法無明文的情況之下、自立自強的情況之下，有……"],["許部長銘春：法律……沒有，我剛剛講過了，他們有沒有寫這個，都要按照勞基法給資遣費，都要給啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：來，這個判例就是一個沒有給的案例嘛！因為這個判例講的是……"],["許部長銘春：要看他們的約定內容是什麼……"],["牛委員煦庭：這個判例講的是華航，華航的案例說這是勞雇契約的前期階段，不適用勞基法法定終止事由……"],["許部長銘春：如果他們實質的約定內容是職業訓練，那就尊重，就是怕他們掛羊頭賣狗肉……"],["牛委員煦庭：是嘛！所以今天我們討論很多，在勞動現場其實有很多就是因為權利義務關係不明確，衍生了很多的勞資糾紛，我希望在這個場合把修法的初衷講清楚，不要大家在……如果薪資有爭議，我們可以先擱置，但是這幾項，時間、通過的標準、如何好聚好散、確保勞工可以拿到資遣費，我想這些東西在法律上是有完善的空間，部長應該不會反對我這樣的說法才是啊！"],["許部長銘春：是啊，按照現在規定，他就是要給他相關的……所有的權利義務通通要照勞基法。"],["牛委員煦庭：這些判例告訴你，實務現場有的時候是判勞工輸啊！我是很擔心這樣的狀況啦！部長，這是有可能的，對不對？我希望勞動部去瞭解一下……"],["許部長銘春：但是縱使是法律明文規定了，還是會有爭議在啊！不然為什麼這麼多勞資爭議的調解或是訴訟案件……"],["牛委員煦庭：我希望勞動部做個功課，好不好？也希望你跟新任的勞動部長好好講一下，就是說試用期實務上是存在的，在法無明文的情況之下，你們應該累積了很多勞資爭議的判例、狀況跟問題，我開放心態，包含政府也可以提供好的修法意見啊！我們如何在這些實務存在的問題情況下保障勞動權益……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個案子……"],["牛委員煦庭：給予修法的建議，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：這是個案的判決，我覺得他有些觀點……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，有些不見得……所以有的有判、有的沒判，我們現在討論……"],["許部長銘春：對啊，每個判決其實也都不一樣……"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在請勞動部做調查，也就是說，你們瞭解最多實際上勞資爭議發生的狀況，目前針對試用期各項權利義務關係不明確的問題，如果要用修法的方式來保障的話，請你提供一些修法的建議，好不好？這樣子就好了，我們花一點點時間討論，我覺得都OK，但是我希望大家可以面對問題，然後我們逐步來找解決方法。部長，你今天在外面受訪的時候，講的話對我還算滿公平的，你說立意良善，但是討論要周延，我們就往這個方向來前進好嗎？"],["許部長銘春：是啊！討論要周延。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，最後一句話，對不起！主席，我今天耽誤很多時間，今天的主題是工會，我提醒一下消防署長，我一定要提醒你一句話，不到一分鐘，署長，拜託。"],["蕭署長煥章：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：工會的事情當然是茲事體大，這本席願意理解，但是我要告訴署長，為什麼這麼多人現在去支持這個事情，就是因為政府現行的機制下，很多基層權益是沒有辦法被充分保證的，我舉一個例子，我曾經在內政委員會，好早以前、幾個月前的質詢中，我就講勤務加給要趕快給，給了嗎？後來有結果嗎？你說要商量一下，然後綜合大家的意見，然後就沒有然後了，我很擔心這樣的狀況一直持續。"],["蕭署長煥章：還沒，臺南跟高雄的部分現在確認中，確認以後我們會整個報到院裡面來處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個我們上次都討論過，連財源都是由地方自籌，結果這個東西你還有一大堆理由跟藉口……"],["蕭署長煥章：有的是要中央付，不是所有……"],["牛委員煦庭：你有很多的理由跟藉口，讓這東西很慢的時候，當然基層會覺得自己沒有被照顧到，你政府端有政府端的版本，我看報告裡也沒有寫得很清楚，但沒關係，我們就藉由這樣的機會來充分討論，但我希望你這個保障權益的腳步要積極，要不然你就是逼著他用組工會的方式來成為談判籌碼，對不對？不也就很難看嗎？對不對？所以我希望加給的部分可以趕快得到正面的回應，可以嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：我們再來努力。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。"],["蕭署長煥章：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員。接下來我們請鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","盧縣一、盧縣一、盧縣一委員不在。","我們請劉建國委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-16","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","鄭天財Sra 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344.121, \"end\": 344.261, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 344.261, \"end\": 344.762, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 344.762, \"end\": 344.882, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 344.882, \"end\": 345.002, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 345.002, \"end\": 345.222, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 345.222, \"end\": 345.422, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 345.422, \"end\": 345.562, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 345.562, \"end\": 345.722, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 345.722, \"end\": 345.862, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 345.862, \"end\": 345.962, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 345.962, \"end\": 345.982, \"score\": 0.033}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}]}, {\"start\": 347.743, \"end\": 365.118, \"text\": \"第二個我要問的是現在以勞動部的了解各行百工百業裡面是不是每一個公司都可以很清楚的告訴他的勞工我做了哪些事我可以通過試用期你有辦法保證說大家都很好的做到了這件事嗎應該有困難對不對不然回答一下\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 347.743, \"end\": 347.863, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 347.863, \"end\": 348.083, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 348.083, \"end\": 348.184, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 348.184, \"end\": 348.424, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 348.424, \"end\": 348.544, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 348.544, \"end\": 349.545, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 349.545, \"end\": 349.765, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 349.765, \"end\": 350.225, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 350.225, \"end\": 350.325, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 350.325, \"end\": 350.445, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 350.445, 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{\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 360.574, \"end\": 360.654, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 360.654, \"end\": 360.874, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 360.874, \"end\": 361.334, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"證\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 361.334, \"end\": 361.415, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 361.415, \"end\": 361.555, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 361.555, \"end\": 362.295, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 362.295, \"end\": 362.435, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 362.435, \"end\": 362.575, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 362.575, \"end\": 362.676, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 362.676, \"end\": 362.796, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 362.796, \"end\": 362.896, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 362.896, \"end\": 363.096, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 363.096, \"end\": 363.276, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 363.276, \"end\": 364.537, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 364.537, \"end\": 364.677, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"困\", \"start\": 364.677, \"end\": 364.737, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"難\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 364.737, \"end\": 364.757, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 364.757, \"end\": 364.797, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 364.797, \"end\": 364.917, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 364.917, \"end\": 364.937, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 364.937, \"end\": 365.038, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 365.038, \"end\": 365.098, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 365.098, \"end\": 365.118, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 370.131, \"end\": 384.799, \"text\": \"委員我不知道你的意思是什麼欸我的意思是說大家約定有一個試用期的期間對不對但是我總要通過一些事情才要通過才能夠轉正嘛這個中間轉正的那就看他們雙方的約定的目標啊這個約定有沒有明確以你勞動部目前掌握它是明確的還是不明確的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 370.131, \"end\": 370.151, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 370.151, \"end\": 370.451, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 370.451, \"end\": 370.531, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 370.531, \"end\": 370.571, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 370.571, \"end\": 370.731, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 370.731, \"end\": 370.811, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 370.811, \"end\": 370.951, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 370.951, \"end\": 371.112, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 371.112, \"end\": 371.272, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 371.272, \"end\": 371.392, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 371.392, \"end\": 371.752, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"欸\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 371.752, \"end\": 371.832, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 371.832, \"end\": 371.952, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 371.952, \"end\": 372.072, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 372.072, \"end\": 372.272, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 372.272, \"end\": 372.452, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 372.452, \"end\": 372.552, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 372.552, \"end\": 372.892, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"約\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 372.892, \"end\": 373.013, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 373.013, \"end\": 373.153, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 373.153, \"end\": 373.393, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"試\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 373.393, \"end\": 373.533, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 373.533, \"end\": 373.653, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"的\", 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\"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 379.436, \"end\": 379.576, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 379.576, \"end\": 380.056, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"雙\"}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 380.056, \"end\": 380.176, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 380.176, \"end\": 380.516, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"約\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 380.516, \"end\": 380.777, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 380.777, \"end\": 381.137, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 381.137, \"end\": 381.257, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 381.257, \"end\": 381.777, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"約\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 381.777, \"end\": 381.877, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 381.877, \"end\": 381.997, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 381.997, \"end\": 382.077, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 382.077, \"end\": 382.117, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 382.117, \"end\": 382.538, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 382.538, \"end\": 382.638, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 382.638, \"end\": 383.018, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 383.018, \"end\": 383.138, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 383.138, \"end\": 383.258, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 383.258, \"end\": 383.458, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"掌\", \"start\": 383.458, \"end\": 383.598, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"握\", \"start\": 383.598, \"end\": 383.738, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 383.738, \"end\": 383.878, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 383.878, \"end\": 383.998, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 383.998, \"end\": 384.338, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 384.338, \"end\": 384.499, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 384.499, \"end\": 384.599, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 384.599, \"end\": 384.699, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 384.699, \"end\": 384.779, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 384.779, \"end\": 384.799, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 390.837, \"end\": 412.216, \"text\": \"兩邊認知不一樣是不是也會變成勞資爭議是嗎對不對所以如何通過這個權利與關係不明確嗎第三個我就要問了是不是每一個在試用期中間討論這些都可以好聚好散勞工都可以拿到資產費不一定喔在法無明文的情況之下自立自強的情況之下有\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 390.837, \"end\": 392.758, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 392.758, \"end\": 392.939, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 392.939, \"end\": 393.98, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 393.98, \"end\": 394.28, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 394.28, \"end\": 394.58, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 394.58, \"end\": 394.84, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 394.84, \"end\": 395.561, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"變\"}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 395.561, \"end\": 396.842, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"爭\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 396.842, \"end\": 397.162, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 397.162, \"end\": 397.683, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 397.683, \"end\": 397.803, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 397.803, \"end\": 397.923, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 397.923, \"end\": 398.063, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"何\", \"start\": 398.063, \"end\": 398.243, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 398.243, \"end\": 399.224, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, 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--> 00:00:47,676\n就是不能低於絕對不低於勞基法的最低保障對不對所以不會有22K的問題嘛即便適用集法之話之後對不對因為法律之間不會彼此矛盾法律的規定不能對好謝謝喔不會對不對\n\n4\n00:00:52,529 --> 00:01:02,855\n國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案件是在於是不是要打八成的問題啦。你先聽我講完嘛。謝謝你打臉王定宇委員,因為他是造謠說會有22K,但沒有這個事嘛,因為法律之間不會逼之抵觸。在這個地方當然這個八成樓地板的這個問題有可能導致定貓效應,這個本席願意承認。但是\n\n5\n00:01:17,103 --> 00:01:31,677\n我們總要把事情講清楚我們修正法的初衷我請部長看一下這個表格裡面的範例這幾個都是最近幾年的這個勞資爭議的一些判例你可以看到有些有些真正很弱勢的勞工比如說這個現場工程師應聘薪資4萬5\n\n6\n00:01:33,518 --> 00:02:02,077\n約定薪資2萬6千4,那是因為去年還沒有調到2萬7啦。有貫車司機應聘薪資4萬,約定薪資2萬6千4。國中應問輔導老師,他4天就離職了,所以適用期長度大概是不止4天。但是一樣應聘薪資4萬,約定薪資2萬6千5。技術員3萬4千4百7到5萬9百3不等,因為這個看表現決定。業務工程人員應聘薪資4萬,約定薪資2萬5。這些案例也有可能不多,但部長既然都打了勞資爭議的官司,他們存不存在?\n\n7\n00:02:03,353 --> 00:02:03,773\n委員陳菁徽等18人擬具\n\n8\n00:02:24,230 --> 00:02:26,793\n國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑\n\n9\n00:02:40,709 --> 00:02:41,209\n),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具\n\n10\n00:03:00,837 --> 00:03:24,826\n主義勞工的權益我知道內容我們待會會討論但我只是要藉這樣子的一個機會部長有這樣子的一群勞工他人數少但是他是真正弱勢中的弱勢也許你可以講八成這個數字有點太危險有可能知識體大這本席願意承認但是我們修正法的初衷是要照顧這一群陰影裡面最弱勢的勞工希望大家可以瞭解第二個我要問這個部長的問題適用期有沒有違法目前的狀況適用期是不是違法的行為\n\n11\n00:03:28,717 --> 00:03:42,445\n國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16條及第6條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6\n\n12\n00:03:48,388 --> 00:04:03,207\n在勞基法上沒有所謂適用期非適用期勞工我簡單這樣子講你可以約定做可以約定嘛所以它就不是違法行為嘛對不對對不是違法但是你的所有的規範所有的規範你只要是照勞基法就可以了\n\n13\n00:04:03,427 --> 00:04:08,172\n​​國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．\n\n14\n00:04:18,584 --> 00:04:44,554\n沒關係我也不希望他們用造謠的方式來抹黑我的法案但是沒關係我們進入實際上的討論我已經公開已經說了沒有八折的問題我們已經把這個都拿掉因為爭議很大我也講我承認這個修法的過程中還需要審慎的討論但是今天要借用一點點時間我還有問題要問這現行試用期法無明文的規定但你剛剛也講這不是違法那會不會衍生勞資爭議\n\n15\n00:04:46,363 --> 00:05:04,084\n有可能對不對?因為講不清楚嘛。你現在按照現行的法律是不是勞資雙方講好就好。可是這個講好口頭講算不算講好?有可能對不對?那如果講好之後反悔大家不滿意是不是就會造成勞資的糾紛?應該會吧?來請部長看一下這個判例喔。這個判例就是寫說\n\n16\n00:05:06,126 --> 00:05:23,698\n除非有明確規定有明文規定否則我這個叫執訓啊這個不叫適用啊這個沒有勞動契約的沒有勞動契約的時候他就不是雇用關係的他就會出現這樣子的一個勞資爭議所以我今天提這個適用期法制化的概念是因為勞資目前的情況下權利物關係不明確第一個問題我要問部長部長\n\n17\n00:05:27,552 --> 00:05:45,982\n»:現在按現行的狀況以下時間有沒有明文規定沒有對不對有可能三個月有可能六個月有可能九個月對不對不是包圍要合理啦你不能說適用其他一年啊半年是不合理吧現行就是講好就好那有沒有可能超過三個月或者是沒完沒了極端的狀況有可能對不對有可能啦好謝謝\n\n18\n00:05:47,743 --> 00:06:05,118\n第二個我要問的是現在以勞動部的了解各行百工百業裡面是不是每一個公司都可以很清楚的告訴他的勞工我做了哪些事我可以通過試用期你有辦法保證說大家都很好的做到了這件事嗎應該有困難對不對不然回答一下\n\n19\n00:06:10,131 --> 00:06:24,799\n委員我不知道你的意思是什麼欸我的意思是說大家約定有一個試用期的期間對不對但是我總要通過一些事情才要通過才能夠轉正嘛這個中間轉正的那就看他們雙方的約定的目標啊這個約定有沒有明確以你勞動部目前掌握它是明確的還是不明確的\n\n20\n00:06:30,837 --> 00:06:52,216\n兩邊認知不一樣是不是也會變成勞資爭議是嗎對不對所以如何通過這個權利與關係不明確嗎第三個我就要問了是不是每一個在試用期中間討論這些都可以好聚好散勞工都可以拿到資產費不一定喔在法無明文的情況之下自立自強的情況之下有\n\n21\n00:06:53,496 --> 00:07:08,347\n國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12屆議員委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員王育敏等21人擬具\n\n22\n00:07:19,696 --> 00:07:41,532\n所以今天我們在討論很多勞動現場其實很多就是因為權利義務關係不明確衍生了很多的勞資糾紛我是希望在這個場合上把這個修法的初衷講清楚不要大家在如果心智有爭議我們可以先擱置但是這幾項時間通過的標準跟如何好聚好散確保勞工可以拿到資遣費我想這些東西在法律上是有完善的空間部長應該不會反對我這樣說法才是啊\n\n23\n00:07:42,467 --> 00:07:59,717\n按照現在的規定他就是要給他相關的所有的權利義務通通要照勞基法這些判例告訴你實務現場有的時候判是判勞工書啊我是很擔心這樣子的狀況啦對不對部長這是有可能我希望勞動部去了解一下但是你縱使明文法律明文規定還是會有爭議在啊不然為什麼這麼多的\n\n24\n00:08:02,899 --> 00:08:25,854\n來我希望勞動部做個功課啦好不好也希望你跟新任的勞動部長好好講一下就是說在試用期實務上是存在的法無明文的情況之下你們應該有累積了很多的勞資爭議的判例跟狀況跟問題喔我開放心態包含政府你也可以提供好的修法意見啊我們如何在這些實務存在的問題情況下去保障勞動權益給予修法的權益好不好的建議啦\n\n25\n00:08:29,256 --> 00:08:46,956\n對有些不見得所以有的有判有的沒判嘛我們現在討論這個每個判決其實也都不一樣我現在請勞動部做調查也就是說你們了解最多勞資爭議的實際上發生的狀況目前針對適用期各項權利與關於不明確的問題喔如果要用修法的方式來保障的話請你提供一些修法的建議好不好\n\n26\n00:08:47,737 --> 00:08:47,757\n拜託。\n\n27\n00:09:16,897 --> 00:09:33,369\n公會的事情當然是知識體大這本席願意理解但是我要告訴署長為什麼這麼多人現在去支持這個事情就是因為政府現行的機制下對於很多基層的權益是沒有辦法被充分保證我舉一個例子我曾經在內政委員會好早以前幾個月的質詢前我就講勤務加給要趕快給給了嗎\n\n28\n00:09:55,510 --> 00:10:21,781\n»:有的你有很多的理由跟藉口讓這東西很慢的時候當然基層會覺得自己沒有被照顧到啦你政府方端有政府端的版本我看報告裡也沒有寫得很清楚但沒關係我們就藉由這樣的機會來充分討論但我希望你這個保障權益的腳步要積極啊要不然你逼著他用主工會的方式來成為談判籌碼對不對不也就很難看嗎對不對所以我希望可以得到加急的部分趕快得到正面回應可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝牛雪婷委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7558\t10824\t謝謝主席,部長有請。好,有請許部長。\n14161\t36590\t委員吾官吾這個我們就直接進入主題啊今天兩個部分吼一個是因為剛剛有委員幫我們試圖在解釋這個勞基法修正的一些東西我們做一些釐清吼第一個要請問這個部長吼這個試用期如果法制化的話吼會不會導致低於最低工資22K這樣的情況重新出現報告委員吼我們的這個一目前勞基法我們的薪資\n37910\t47676\t就是不能低於絕對不低於勞基法的最低保障對不對所以不會有22K的問題嘛即便適用集法之話之後對不對因為法律之間不會彼此矛盾法律的規定不能對好謝謝喔 不會對不對\n52529\t62855\t國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案件是在於是不是要打八成的問題啦。你先聽我講完嘛。謝謝你打臉王定宇委員,因為他是造謠說會有22K,但沒有這個事嘛,因為法律之間不會逼之抵觸。在這個地方當然這個八成樓地板的這個問題有可能導致定貓效應,這個本席願意承認。但是\n77103\t91677\t我們總要把事情講清楚我們修正法的初衷我請部長看一下這個表格裡面的範例這幾個都是最近幾年的這個勞資爭議的一些判例你可以看到有些有些真正很弱勢的勞工比如說這個現場工程師應聘薪資4萬5\n93518\t122077\t約定薪資2萬6千4,那是因為去年還沒有調到2萬7啦。有貫車司機應聘薪資4萬,約定薪資2萬6千4。國中應問輔導老師,他4天就離職了,所以適用期長度大概是不止4天。但是一樣應聘薪資4萬,約定薪資2萬6千5。技術員3萬4千4百7到5萬9百3不等,因為這個看表現決定。業務工程人員應聘薪資4萬,約定薪資2萬5。這些案例也有可能不多,但部長既然都打了勞資爭議的官司,他們存不存在?\n123353\t123773\t委員陳菁徽等18人擬具\n144230\t146793\t國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑\n160709\t161209\t),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具\n180837\t204826\t主義勞工的權益我知道內容我們待會會討論但我只是要藉這樣子的一個機會部長有這樣子的一群勞工他人數少但是他是真正弱勢中的弱勢也許你可以講八成這個數字有點太危險有可能知識體大這本席願意承認但是我們修正法的初衷是要照顧這一群陰影裡面最弱勢的勞工希望大家可以瞭解第二個我要問這個部長的問題適用期有沒有違法目前的狀況適用期是不是違法的行為\n208717\t222445\t國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16條及第6條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6\n228388\t243207\t在勞基法上沒有所謂適用期非適用期勞工我簡單這樣子講你可以約定做可以約定嘛所以它就不是違法行為嘛對不對對不是違法但是你的所有的規範所有的規範你只要是照勞基法就可以了\n243427\t248172\t​​國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．\n258584\t284554\t沒關係我也不希望他們用造謠的方式來抹黑我的法案但是沒關係我們進入實際上的討論我已經公開已經說了沒有八折的問題我們已經把這個都拿掉因為爭議很大我也講我承認這個修法的過程中還需要審慎的討論但是今天要借用一點點時間我還有問題要問這現行試用期法無明文的規定但你剛剛也講這不是違法那會不會衍生勞資爭議\n286363\t304084\t有可能對不對?因為講不清楚嘛。你現在按照現行的法律是不是勞資雙方講好就好。可是這個講好口頭講算不算講好?有可能對不對?那如果講好之後反悔大家不滿意是不是就會造成勞資的糾紛?應該會吧?來請部長看一下這個判例喔。這個判例就是寫說\n306126\t323698\t除非有明確規定有明文規定否則我這個叫執訓啊這個不叫適用啊這個沒有勞動契約的沒有勞動契約的時候他就不是雇用關係的他就會出現這樣子的一個勞資爭議所以我今天提這個適用期法制化的概念是因為勞資目前的情況下權利物關係不明確第一個問題我要問部長部長\n327552\t345982\t»: 現在按現行的狀況以下時間有沒有明文規定沒有對不對有可能三個月有可能六個月有可能九個月對不對 不是包圍要合理啦你不能說適用其他一年啊半年是不合理吧現行就是講好就好那有沒有可能超過三個月或者是沒完沒了極端的狀況有可能對不對有可能啦好謝謝\n347743\t365118\t第二個我要問的是現在以勞動部的了解各行百工百業裡面是不是每一個公司都可以很清楚的告訴他的勞工我做了哪些事我可以通過試用期你有辦法保證說大家都很好的做到了這件事嗎應該有困難對不對不然回答一下\n370131\t384799\t委員我不知道你的意思是什麼欸我的意思是說大家約定有一個試用期的期間對不對但是我總要通過一些事情才要通過才能夠轉正嘛這個中間轉正的那就看他們雙方的約定的目標啊這個約定有沒有明確以你勞動部目前掌握它是明確的還是不明確的\n390837\t412216\t兩邊認知不一樣是不是也會變成勞資爭議是嗎對不對所以如何通過這個權利與關係不明確嗎第三個我就要問了是不是每一個在試用期中間討論這些都可以好聚好散勞工都可以拿到資產費不一定喔在法無明文的情況之下自立自強的情況之下有\n413496\t428347\t國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12屆議員委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員王育敏等21人擬具\n439696\t461532\t所以今天我們在討論很多勞動現場其實很多就是因為權利義務關係不明確衍生了很多的勞資糾紛我是希望在這個場合上把這個修法的初衷講清楚不要大家在如果心智有爭議我們可以先擱置但是這幾項時間通過的標準跟如何好聚好散確保勞工可以拿到資遣費我想這些東西在法律上是有完善的空間部長應該不會反對我這樣說法才是啊\n462467\t479717\t按照現在的規定他就是要給他相關的所有的權利義務通通要照勞基法這些判例告訴你實務現場有的時候判是判勞工書啊我是很擔心這樣子的狀況啦對不對部長這是有可能我希望勞動部去了解一下但是你縱使明文法律明文規定還是會有爭議在啊不然為什麼這麼多的\n482899\t505854\t來我希望勞動部做個功課啦好不好也希望你跟新任的勞動部長好好講一下就是說在試用期實務上是存在的法無明文的情況之下你們應該有累積了很多的勞資爭議的判例跟狀況跟問題喔我開放心態包含政府你也可以提供好的修法意見啊我們如何在這些實務存在的問題情況下去保障勞動權益給予修法的權益好不好的建議啦\n509256\t526956\t對有些不見得所以有的有判有的沒判嘛我們現在討論這個每個判決其實也都不一樣我現在請勞動部做調查也就是說你們了解最多勞資爭議的實際上發生的狀況目前針對適用期各項權利與關於不明確的問題喔如果要用修法的方式來保障的話請你提供一些修法的建議好不好\n527737\t527757\t拜託。\n556897\t573369\t公會的事情當然是知識體大這本席願意理解但是我要告訴署長為什麼這麼多人現在去支持這個事情就是因為政府現行的機制下對於很多基層的權益是沒有辦法被充分保證我舉一個例子我曾經在內政委員會好早以前幾個月的質詢前我就講勤務加給要趕快給給了嗎\n575520\t595230\t), ️ ️ ️\n595510\t621781\t»:有的你有很多的理由跟藉口讓這東西很慢的時候當然基層會覺得自己沒有被照顧到啦你政府方端有政府端的版本我看報告裡也沒有寫得很清楚但沒關係我們就藉由這樣的機會來充分討論但我希望你這個保障權益的腳步要積極啊要不然你逼著他用主工會的方式來成為談判籌碼對不對不也就很難看嗎對不對所以我希望可以得到加急的部分趕快得到正面回應可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝牛雪婷委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席,部長有請。好,有請許部長。\n委員吾官吾這個我們就直接進入主題啊今天兩個部分吼一個是因為剛剛有委員幫我們試圖在解釋這個勞基法修正的一些東西我們做一些釐清吼第一個要請問這個部長吼這個試用期如果法制化的話吼會不會導致低於最低工資22K這樣的情況重新出現報告委員吼我們的這個一目前勞基法我們的薪資\n就是不能低於絕對不低於勞基法的最低保障對不對所以不會有22K的問題嘛即便適用集法之話之後對不對因為法律之間不會彼此矛盾法律的規定不能對好謝謝喔 不會對不對\n國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案件是在於是不是要打八成的問題啦。你先聽我講完嘛。謝謝你打臉王定宇委員,因為他是造謠說會有22K,但沒有這個事嘛,因為法律之間不會逼之抵觸。在這個地方當然這個八成樓地板的這個問題有可能導致定貓效應,這個本席願意承認。但是\n我們總要把事情講清楚我們修正法的初衷我請部長看一下這個表格裡面的範例這幾個都是最近幾年的這個勞資爭議的一些判例你可以看到有些有些真正很弱勢的勞工比如說這個現場工程師應聘薪資4萬5\n約定薪資2萬6千4,那是因為去年還沒有調到2萬7啦。有貫車司機應聘薪資4萬,約定薪資2萬6千4。國中應問輔導老師,他4天就離職了,所以適用期長度大概是不止4天。但是一樣應聘薪資4萬,約定薪資2萬6千5。技術員3萬4千4百7到5萬9百3不等,因為這個看表現決定。業務工程人員應聘薪資4萬,約定薪資2萬5。這些案例也有可能不多,但部長既然都打了勞資爭議的官司,他們存不存在?\n委員陳菁徽等18人擬具\n國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑\n),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具\n主義勞工的權益我知道內容我們待會會討論但我只是要藉這樣子的一個機會部長有這樣子的一群勞工他人數少但是他是真正弱勢中的弱勢也許你可以講八成這個數字有點太危險有可能知識體大這本席願意承認但是我們修正法的初衷是要照顧這一群陰影裡面最弱勢的勞工希望大家可以瞭解第二個我要問這個部長的問題適用期有沒有違法目前的狀況適用期是不是違法的行為\n國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16條及第6條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6\n在勞基法上沒有所謂適用期非適用期勞工我簡單這樣子講你可以約定做可以約定嘛所以它就不是違法行為嘛對不對對不是違法但是你的所有的規範所有的規範你只要是照勞基法就可以了\n​​國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．\n沒關係我也不希望他們用造謠的方式來抹黑我的法案但是沒關係我們進入實際上的討論我已經公開已經說了沒有八折的問題我們已經把這個都拿掉因為爭議很大我也講我承認這個修法的過程中還需要審慎的討論但是今天要借用一點點時間我還有問題要問這現行試用期法無明文的規定但你剛剛也講這不是違法那會不會衍生勞資爭議\n有可能對不對?因為講不清楚嘛。你現在按照現行的法律是不是勞資雙方講好就好。可是這個講好口頭講算不算講好?有可能對不對?那如果講好之後反悔大家不滿意是不是就會造成勞資的糾紛?應該會吧?來請部長看一下這個判例喔。這個判例就是寫說\n除非有明確規定有明文規定否則我這個叫執訓啊這個不叫適用啊這個沒有勞動契約的沒有勞動契約的時候他就不是雇用關係的他就會出現這樣子的一個勞資爭議所以我今天提這個適用期法制化的概念是因為勞資目前的情況下權利物關係不明確第一個問題我要問部長部長\n»: 現在按現行的狀況以下時間有沒有明文規定沒有對不對有可能三個月有可能六個月有可能九個月對不對 不是包圍要合理啦你不能說適用其他一年啊半年是不合理吧現行就是講好就好那有沒有可能超過三個月或者是沒完沒了極端的狀況有可能對不對有可能啦好謝謝\n第二個我要問的是現在以勞動部的了解各行百工百業裡面是不是每一個公司都可以很清楚的告訴他的勞工我做了哪些事我可以通過試用期你有辦法保證說大家都很好的做到了這件事嗎應該有困難對不對不然回答一下\n委員我不知道你的意思是什麼欸我的意思是說大家約定有一個試用期的期間對不對但是我總要通過一些事情才要通過才能夠轉正嘛這個中間轉正的那就看他們雙方的約定的目標啊這個約定有沒有明確以你勞動部目前掌握它是明確的還是不明確的\n兩邊認知不一樣是不是也會變成勞資爭議是嗎對不對所以如何通過這個權利與關係不明確嗎第三個我就要問了是不是每一個在試用期中間討論這些都可以好聚好散勞工都可以拿到資產費不一定喔在法無明文的情況之下自立自強的情況之下有\n國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12屆議員委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員王育敏等21人擬具\n所以今天我們在討論很多勞動現場其實很多就是因為權利義務關係不明確衍生了很多的勞資糾紛我是希望在這個場合上把這個修法的初衷講清楚不要大家在如果心智有爭議我們可以先擱置但是這幾項時間通過的標準跟如何好聚好散確保勞工可以拿到資遣費我想這些東西在法律上是有完善的空間部長應該不會反對我這樣說法才是啊\n按照現在的規定他就是要給他相關的所有的權利義務通通要照勞基法這些判例告訴你實務現場有的時候判是判勞工書啊我是很擔心這樣子的狀況啦對不對部長這是有可能我希望勞動部去了解一下但是你縱使明文法律明文規定還是會有爭議在啊不然為什麼這麼多的\n來我希望勞動部做個功課啦好不好也希望你跟新任的勞動部長好好講一下就是說在試用期實務上是存在的法無明文的情況之下你們應該有累積了很多的勞資爭議的判例跟狀況跟問題喔我開放心態包含政府你也可以提供好的修法意見啊我們如何在這些實務存在的問題情況下去保障勞動權益給予修法的權益好不好的建議啦\n對有些不見得所以有的有判有的沒判嘛我們現在討論這個每個判決其實也都不一樣我現在請勞動部做調查也就是說你們了解最多勞資爭議的實際上發生的狀況目前針對適用期各項權利與關於不明確的問題喔如果要用修法的方式來保障的話請你提供一些修法的建議好不好\n拜託。\n公會的事情當然是知識體大這本席願意理解但是我要告訴署長為什麼這麼多人現在去支持這個事情就是因為政府現行的機制下對於很多基層的權益是沒有辦法被充分保證我舉一個例子我曾經在內政委員會好早以前幾個月的質詢前我就講勤務加給要趕快給給了嗎\n), ️ ️ ️\n»:有的你有很多的理由跟藉口讓這東西很慢的時候當然基層會覺得自己沒有被照顧到啦你政府方端有政府端的版本我看報告裡也沒有寫得很清楚但沒關係我們就藉由這樣的機會來充分討論但我希望你這個保障權益的腳步要積極啊要不然你逼著他用主工會的方式來成為談判籌碼對不對不也就很難看嗎對不對所以我希望可以得到加急的部分趕快得到正面回應可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝牛雪婷委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.558 --> 00:10.824\n謝謝主席,部長有請。好,有請許部長。\n\n00:14.161 --> 00:36.590\n委員吾官吾這個我們就直接進入主題啊今天兩個部分吼一個是因為剛剛有委員幫我們試圖在解釋這個勞基法修正的一些東西我們做一些釐清吼第一個要請問這個部長吼這個試用期如果法制化的話吼會不會導致低於最低工資22K這樣的情況重新出現報告委員吼我們的這個一目前勞基法我們的薪資\n\n00:37.910 --> 00:47.676\n就是不能低於絕對不低於勞基法的最低保障對不對所以不會有22K的問題嘛即便適用集法之話之後對不對因為法律之間不會彼此矛盾法律的規定不能對好謝謝喔不會對不對\n\n00:52.529 --> 01:02.855\n國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案件是在於是不是要打八成的問題啦。你先聽我講完嘛。謝謝你打臉王定宇委員,因為他是造謠說會有22K,但沒有這個事嘛,因為法律之間不會逼之抵觸。在這個地方當然這個八成樓地板的這個問題有可能導致定貓效應,這個本席願意承認。但是\n\n01:17.103 --> 01:31.677\n我們總要把事情講清楚我們修正法的初衷我請部長看一下這個表格裡面的範例這幾個都是最近幾年的這個勞資爭議的一些判例你可以看到有些有些真正很弱勢的勞工比如說這個現場工程師應聘薪資4萬5\n\n01:33.518 --> 02:02.077\n約定薪資2萬6千4,那是因為去年還沒有調到2萬7啦。有貫車司機應聘薪資4萬,約定薪資2萬6千4。國中應問輔導老師,他4天就離職了,所以適用期長度大概是不止4天。但是一樣應聘薪資4萬,約定薪資2萬6千5。技術員3萬4千4百7到5萬9百3不等,因為這個看表現決定。業務工程人員應聘薪資4萬,約定薪資2萬5。這些案例也有可能不多,但部長既然都打了勞資爭議的官司,他們存不存在?\n\n02:03.353 --> 02:03.773\n委員陳菁徽等18人擬具\n\n02:24.230 --> 02:26.793\n國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑\n\n02:40.709 --> 02:41.209\n),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具\n\n03:00.837 --> 03:24.826\n主義勞工的權益我知道內容我們待會會討論但我只是要藉這樣子的一個機會部長有這樣子的一群勞工他人數少但是他是真正弱勢中的弱勢也許你可以講八成這個數字有點太危險有可能知識體大這本席願意承認但是我們修正法的初衷是要照顧這一群陰影裡面最弱勢的勞工希望大家可以瞭解第二個我要問這個部長的問題適用期有沒有違法目前的狀況適用期是不是違法的行為\n\n03:28.717 --> 03:42.445\n國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16條及第6條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6\n\n03:48.388 --> 04:03.207\n在勞基法上沒有所謂適用期非適用期勞工我簡單這樣子講你可以約定做可以約定嘛所以它就不是違法行為嘛對不對對不是違法但是你的所有的規範所有的規範你只要是照勞基法就可以了\n\n04:03.427 --> 04:08.172\n​​國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．\n\n04:18.584 --> 04:44.554\n沒關係我也不希望他們用造謠的方式來抹黑我的法案但是沒關係我們進入實際上的討論我已經公開已經說了沒有八折的問題我們已經把這個都拿掉因為爭議很大我也講我承認這個修法的過程中還需要審慎的討論但是今天要借用一點點時間我還有問題要問這現行試用期法無明文的規定但你剛剛也講這不是違法那會不會衍生勞資爭議\n\n04:46.363 --> 05:04.084\n有可能對不對?因為講不清楚嘛。你現在按照現行的法律是不是勞資雙方講好就好。可是這個講好口頭講算不算講好?有可能對不對?那如果講好之後反悔大家不滿意是不是就會造成勞資的糾紛?應該會吧?來請部長看一下這個判例喔。這個判例就是寫說\n\n05:06.126 --> 05:23.698\n除非有明確規定有明文規定否則我這個叫執訓啊這個不叫適用啊這個沒有勞動契約的沒有勞動契約的時候他就不是雇用關係的他就會出現這樣子的一個勞資爭議所以我今天提這個適用期法制化的概念是因為勞資目前的情況下權利物關係不明確第一個問題我要問部長部長\n\n05:27.552 --> 05:45.982\n»:現在按現行的狀況以下時間有沒有明文規定沒有對不對有可能三個月有可能六個月有可能九個月對不對不是包圍要合理啦你不能說適用其他一年啊半年是不合理吧現行就是講好就好那有沒有可能超過三個月或者是沒完沒了極端的狀況有可能對不對有可能啦好謝謝\n\n05:47.743 --> 06:05.118\n第二個我要問的是現在以勞動部的了解各行百工百業裡面是不是每一個公司都可以很清楚的告訴他的勞工我做了哪些事我可以通過試用期你有辦法保證說大家都很好的做到了這件事嗎應該有困難對不對不然回答一下\n\n06:10.131 --> 06:24.799\n委員我不知道你的意思是什麼欸我的意思是說大家約定有一個試用期的期間對不對但是我總要通過一些事情才要通過才能夠轉正嘛這個中間轉正的那就看他們雙方的約定的目標啊這個約定有沒有明確以你勞動部目前掌握它是明確的還是不明確的\n\n06:30.837 --> 06:52.216\n兩邊認知不一樣是不是也會變成勞資爭議是嗎對不對所以如何通過這個權利與關係不明確嗎第三個我就要問了是不是每一個在試用期中間討論這些都可以好聚好散勞工都可以拿到資產費不一定喔在法無明文的情況之下自立自強的情況之下有\n\n06:53.496 --> 07:08.347\n國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12屆議員委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員王育敏等21人擬具\n\n07:19.696 --> 07:41.532\n所以今天我們在討論很多勞動現場其實很多就是因為權利義務關係不明確衍生了很多的勞資糾紛我是希望在這個場合上把這個修法的初衷講清楚不要大家在如果心智有爭議我們可以先擱置但是這幾項時間通過的標準跟如何好聚好散確保勞工可以拿到資遣費我想這些東西在法律上是有完善的空間部長應該不會反對我這樣說法才是啊\n\n07:42.467 --> 07:59.717\n按照現在的規定他就是要給他相關的所有的權利義務通通要照勞基法這些判例告訴你實務現場有的時候判是判勞工書啊我是很擔心這樣子的狀況啦對不對部長這是有可能我希望勞動部去了解一下但是你縱使明文法律明文規定還是會有爭議在啊不然為什麼這麼多的\n\n08:02.899 --> 08:25.854\n來我希望勞動部做個功課啦好不好也希望你跟新任的勞動部長好好講一下就是說在試用期實務上是存在的法無明文的情況之下你們應該有累積了很多的勞資爭議的判例跟狀況跟問題喔我開放心態包含政府你也可以提供好的修法意見啊我們如何在這些實務存在的問題情況下去保障勞動權益給予修法的權益好不好的建議啦\n\n08:29.256 --> 08:46.956\n對有些不見得所以有的有判有的沒判嘛我們現在討論這個每個判決其實也都不一樣我現在請勞動部做調查也就是說你們了解最多勞資爭議的實際上發生的狀況目前針對適用期各項權利與關於不明確的問題喔如果要用修法的方式來保障的話請你提供一些修法的建議好不好\n\n08:47.737 --> 08:47.757\n拜託。\n\n09:16.897 --> 09:33.369\n公會的事情當然是知識體大這本席願意理解但是我要告訴署長為什麼這麼多人現在去支持這個事情就是因為政府現行的機制下對於很多基層的權益是沒有辦法被充分保證我舉一個例子我曾經在內政委員會好早以前幾個月的質詢前我就講勤務加給要趕快給給了嗎\n\n09:55.510 --> 10:21.781\n»:有的你有很多的理由跟藉口讓這東西很慢的時候當然基層會覺得自己沒有被照顧到啦你政府方端有政府端的版本我看報告裡也沒有寫得很清楚但沒關係我們就藉由這樣的機會來充分討論但我希望你這個保障權益的腳步要積極啊要不然你逼著他用主工會的方式來成為談判籌碼對不對不也就很難看嗎對不對所以我希望可以得到加急的部分趕快得到正面回應可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝牛雪婷委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.558,"end":10.824,"text":"謝謝主席,部長有請。好,有請許部長。"},{"start":14.161,"end":36.59,"text":"委員吾官吾這個我們就直接進入主題啊今天兩個部分吼一個是因為剛剛有委員幫我們試圖在解釋這個勞基法修正的一些東西我們做一些釐清吼第一個要請問這個部長吼這個試用期如果法制化的話吼會不會導致低於最低工資22K這樣的情況重新出現報告委員吼我們的這個一目前勞基法我們的薪資"},{"start":37.91,"end":47.676,"text":"就是不能低於絕對不低於勞基法的最低保障對不對所以不會有22K的問題嘛即便適用集法之話之後對不對因為法律之間不會彼此矛盾法律的規定不能對好謝謝喔 不會對不對"},{"start":52.529,"end":62.855,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案件是在於是不是要打八成的問題啦。你先聽我講完嘛。謝謝你打臉王定宇委員,因為他是造謠說會有22K,但沒有這個事嘛,因為法律之間不會逼之抵觸。在這個地方當然這個八成樓地板的這個問題有可能導致定貓效應,這個本席願意承認。但是"},{"start":77.103,"end":91.677,"text":"我們總要把事情講清楚我們修正法的初衷我請部長看一下這個表格裡面的範例這幾個都是最近幾年的這個勞資爭議的一些判例你可以看到有些有些真正很弱勢的勞工比如說這個現場工程師應聘薪資4萬5"},{"start":93.518,"end":122.077,"text":"約定薪資2萬6千4,那是因為去年還沒有調到2萬7啦。有貫車司機應聘薪資4萬,約定薪資2萬6千4。國中應問輔導老師,他4天就離職了,所以適用期長度大概是不止4天。但是一樣應聘薪資4萬,約定薪資2萬6千5。技術員3萬4千4百7到5萬9百3不等,因為這個看表現決定。業務工程人員應聘薪資4萬,約定薪資2萬5。這些案例也有可能不多,但部長既然都打了勞資爭議的官司,他們存不存在?"},{"start":123.353,"end":123.773,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具"},{"start":144.23,"end":146.793,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑"},{"start":160.709,"end":161.209,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具"},{"start":180.837,"end":204.826,"text":"主義勞工的權益我知道內容我們待會會討論但我只是要藉這樣子的一個機會部長有這樣子的一群勞工他人數少但是他是真正弱勢中的弱勢也許你可以講八成這個數字有點太危險有可能知識體大這本席願意承認但是我們修正法的初衷是要照顧這一群陰影裡面最弱勢的勞工希望大家可以瞭解第二個我要問這個部長的問題適用期有沒有違法目前的狀況適用期是不是違法的行為"},{"start":208.717,"end":222.445,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16條及第6條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6"},{"start":228.388,"end":243.207,"text":"在勞基法上沒有所謂適用期非適用期勞工我簡單這樣子講你可以約定做可以約定嘛所以它就不是違法行為嘛對不對對不是違法但是你的所有的規範所有的規範你只要是照勞基法就可以了"},{"start":243.427,"end":248.172,"text":"​​國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．"},{"start":258.584,"end":284.554,"text":"沒關係我也不希望他們用造謠的方式來抹黑我的法案但是沒關係我們進入實際上的討論我已經公開已經說了沒有八折的問題我們已經把這個都拿掉因為爭議很大我也講我承認這個修法的過程中還需要審慎的討論但是今天要借用一點點時間我還有問題要問這現行試用期法無明文的規定但你剛剛也講這不是違法那會不會衍生勞資爭議"},{"start":286.363,"end":304.084,"text":"有可能對不對?因為講不清楚嘛。你現在按照現行的法律是不是勞資雙方講好就好。可是這個講好口頭講算不算講好?有可能對不對?那如果講好之後反悔大家不滿意是不是就會造成勞資的糾紛?應該會吧?來請部長看一下這個判例喔。這個判例就是寫說"},{"start":306.126,"end":323.698,"text":"除非有明確規定有明文規定否則我這個叫執訓啊這個不叫適用啊這個沒有勞動契約的沒有勞動契約的時候他就不是雇用關係的他就會出現這樣子的一個勞資爭議所以我今天提這個適用期法制化的概念是因為勞資目前的情況下權利物關係不明確第一個問題我要問部長部長"},{"start":327.552,"end":345.982,"text":" »: 現在按現行的狀況以下時間有沒有明文規定沒有對不對有可能三個月有可能六個月有可能九個月對不對 不是包圍要合理啦你不能說適用其他一年啊半年是不合理吧現行就是講好就好那有沒有可能超過三個月或者是沒完沒了極端的狀況有可能對不對有可能啦好謝謝"},{"start":347.743,"end":365.118,"text":"第二個我要問的是現在以勞動部的了解各行百工百業裡面是不是每一個公司都可以很清楚的告訴他的勞工我做了哪些事我可以通過試用期你有辦法保證說大家都很好的做到了這件事嗎應該有困難對不對不然回答一下"},{"start":370.131,"end":384.799,"text":"委員我不知道你的意思是什麼欸我的意思是說大家約定有一個試用期的期間對不對但是我總要通過一些事情才要通過才能夠轉正嘛這個中間轉正的那就看他們雙方的約定的目標啊這個約定有沒有明確以你勞動部目前掌握它是明確的還是不明確的"},{"start":390.837,"end":412.216,"text":"兩邊認知不一樣是不是也會變成勞資爭議是嗎對不對所以如何通過這個權利與關係不明確嗎第三個我就要問了是不是每一個在試用期中間討論這些都可以好聚好散勞工都可以拿到資產費不一定喔在法無明文的情況之下自立自強的情況之下有"},{"start":413.496,"end":428.347,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12屆議員委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員王育敏等21人擬具"},{"start":439.696,"end":461.532,"text":"所以今天我們在討論很多勞動現場其實很多就是因為權利義務關係不明確衍生了很多的勞資糾紛我是希望在這個場合上把這個修法的初衷講清楚不要大家在如果心智有爭議我們可以先擱置但是這幾項時間通過的標準跟如何好聚好散確保勞工可以拿到資遣費我想這些東西在法律上是有完善的空間部長應該不會反對我這樣說法才是啊"},{"start":462.467,"end":479.717,"text":"按照現在的規定他就是要給他相關的所有的權利義務通通要照勞基法這些判例告訴你實務現場有的時候判是判勞工書啊我是很擔心這樣子的狀況啦對不對部長這是有可能我希望勞動部去了解一下但是你縱使明文法律明文規定還是會有爭議在啊不然為什麼這麼多的"},{"start":482.899,"end":505.854,"text":"來我希望勞動部做個功課啦好不好也希望你跟新任的勞動部長好好講一下就是說在試用期實務上是存在的法無明文的情況之下你們應該有累積了很多的勞資爭議的判例跟狀況跟問題喔我開放心態包含政府你也可以提供好的修法意見啊我們如何在這些實務存在的問題情況下去保障勞動權益給予修法的權益好不好的建議啦"},{"start":509.256,"end":526.956,"text":"對有些不見得所以有的有判有的沒判嘛我們現在討論這個每個判決其實也都不一樣我現在請勞動部做調查也就是說你們了解最多勞資爭議的實際上發生的狀況目前針對適用期各項權利與關於不明確的問題喔如果要用修法的方式來保障的話請你提供一些修法的建議好不好"},{"start":527.737,"end":527.757,"text":"拜託。"},{"start":556.897,"end":573.369,"text":"公會的事情當然是知識體大這本席願意理解但是我要告訴署長為什麼這麼多人現在去支持這個事情就是因為政府現行的機制下對於很多基層的權益是沒有辦法被充分保證我舉一個例子我曾經在內政委員會好早以前幾個月的質詢前我就講勤務加給要趕快給給了嗎"},{"start":575.52,"end":595.23,"text":"), ️ ️ ️"},{"start":595.51,"end":621.781,"text":" »:有的你有很多的理由跟藉口讓這東西很慢的時候當然基層會覺得自己沒有被照顧到啦你政府方端有政府端的版本我看報告裡也沒有寫得很清楚但沒關係我們就藉由這樣的機會來充分討論但我希望你這個保障權益的腳步要積極啊要不然你逼著他用主工會的方式來成為談判籌碼對不對不也就很難看嗎對不對所以我希望可以得到加急的部分趕快得到正面回應可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝牛雪婷委員"}]}}}}