{"id":152468,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152468","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e1734931acaf148bf06c9ab4a2946638eec232d94006c6d412c4db606aef97113c26b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"12:46:15 - 12:57:07","影片長度":"00:10:52","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-16"},"duration":652,"end_time":"2024-05-13T12:57:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T12:46:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1237,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時46分）謝謝主席，麻煩請發展署蔡署長。"],["主席：請蔡署長。"],["蔡署長孟良：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：署長好。在今天的討論事項中，有一個中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法的審查，該法第十三條我仔細研讀之後，發現跟第十二條似乎有衝突，所以在這邊想要請教一下。我們先看第十二條，條文明定不能因為年齡而有差別待遇，特別是考績跟待遇，請問，考績是不是就是考核績效的意思？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，其實第十二條規定，主要是不能用年齡做一些歧視待遇。"],["陳委員瑩：對啦！我問你考績啊！"],["蔡署長孟良：考績基本上就是考核跟一些績效。"],["陳委員瑩：考核績效嘛！好，那我們再來看第十三條條文，這個條文排除第十二條規定，也就是可以有差別待遇的特別情況，這裡面提到基於績效的薪資給付，可以有差別待遇，所以署長你看到問題了沒有？"],["蔡署長孟良：對，跟委員報告，這個確實在整個執行面上，因為這個條文主要是調平司……"],["陳委員瑩：蛤？"],["蔡署長孟良：是調平司在負責。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你有看到問題嗎？你有沒有看到問題？"],["蔡署長孟良：有、有。"],["陳委員瑩：矛盾嘛！"],["蔡署長孟良：這兩個條文之間在實務執行上，可能會產生一些相關連。"],["陳委員瑩：相關？文字就是相關，但就是矛盾啊！我們再看第十七條規定，雇主對於求職或中高齡勞工，有年齡上差別待遇的事實，應該要負起賠償責任，請問，實務上要如何賠償？賠多少有標準嗎？"],["黃司長維琛：跟委員報告，這個部分就要從民事訴訟這邊來爭取主張。"],["陳委員瑩：好，如果向地方政府提出申訴，且歧視成立，申訴者可以得到什麼、獲得什麼樣的補償損失？"],["黃司長維琛：向地方縣市政府提出申訴之後，如果有屬於就業歧視認定的部分，那麼雇主就會被處罰30萬到150萬，如果因此而有相關損失，民事訴訟進行時就會看他損失的部分。"],["陳委員瑩：政府收了罰鍰以後，這個案子就結案了嗎？就像勞動條件的檢查，雇主沒有付加班費，我們也處理很多案件，它被處罰之後，已經繳了罰鍰之後還是不用付加班費，所以倒楣的還是勞工，那個罰也是看不到的，我們只會收罰款，也不會好好運用罰款，讓該收到費用的人收到這個費用，那個精神是這樣子，對不對？"],["黃司長維琛：報告委員，處罰歸處罰，另外如果他有一些之前解僱的部分的話，我們的訴訟扶助會協助勞工去民事訴訟把他的權益爭取回來。"],["陳委員瑩：這也是要花很長的時間。再來，第十七條規定的賠償是不是要勞工走司法管道去取得損失賠償，實務上真的是因為年齡造成差別待遇的損失，而向法院提出訴訟的案例，你們總共統計有多少案？"],["黃司長維琛：這個部分我們手邊現在沒有資料。"],["陳委員瑩：你印象當中有很多嗎？"],["黃司長維琛：在歧視的部分，年齡歧視的案子沒有那麼多，性別歧視大概是目前最多的。"],["陳委員瑩：上次我們有討論過，如果你沒有統計資料，假如不多的話，訂定應付賠償責任的意義到底在哪裡？你們也是不清楚啊！所以我今天問的大概都是提醒你們，我們再來看看穩定就業措施方面，過去明師出高徒的計畫，你們覺得執行成效如何？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，當初執行明師高徒計畫本來是希望透過師徒制，不過它其實有產生一些問題，尤其在勞工部分的權益保障不夠，所以那個計畫當初就暫停了，我們就導入到青年就業。"],["陳委員瑩：現在還有沒有輔導和獎勵，就是統一工作、分工合作的措施？"],["蔡署長孟良：有，當初我們希望能夠有一些世代合作，像這個專法第二十條和第三十條都有類似相關法令的機制。"],["陳委員瑩：所以等於你們有替代方案？"],["蔡署長孟良：有。"],["陳委員瑩：這個替代方案會不會像上次的明師出高徒計畫，其實變相產生更多的廉價勞工出來？"],["蔡署長孟良：像我們在第二十條有規定絕對不能低於原來的勞動條件，這是第一個。第二個，我們在執行過程當中，一切規定都會依照相關的法令做相關的考核。"],["陳委員瑩：你現在講的是聘用中高齡者……"],["蔡署長孟良：對，就是不能低於……"],["陳委員瑩：不能低於嘛！我剛剛點出過去的明師出高徒計畫有些問題，這些問題就是因為師徒制的關係，所以產生更多的廉價勞工出來，你的替代方案有沒有重蹈覆轍，會不會產生更多的廉價勞工？這是我剛剛問你的問題。"],["蔡署長孟良：謝謝委員提醒，我們現在在計劃的設計都會注意，絕對不能讓勞工的權益受到影響。"],["陳委員瑩：你們新的替代方案，我後續再來好好研究瞭解一下。再來，第十九條有提到雇主對於有工作障礙者要提供職務再設計，還有輔具，對於有長照需求者要轉介適當的長照服務資源，請問法案通過這幾年你們的實施成效如何？"],["蔡署長孟良：關於職務再設計，我們其實目前有相關的處理，像我們在去年就透過這樣的機制大概協助了將近550家事業單位，有兩千兩百多人實施職務再設計的協助。"],["陳委員瑩：這是多久的案件統計？"],["蔡署長孟良：去年一整年。"],["陳委員瑩：去年一整年有五百多件，你們總共大概執行多少預算？"],["蔡署長孟良：我們職務再設計的預算是兩千多萬。"],["陳委員瑩：兩千多萬是輔具的部分？"],["蔡署長孟良：對，就是一些相關的輔具和流程改善，以及其他相關的職場協助措施。"],["陳委員瑩：這個部分是你們自己辦，還是委外辦理？"],["蔡署長孟良：我們都是透過地方政府的協助，我們有職災中心來協助。"],["陳委員瑩：他們也是委外嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：有些地方政府可能會透過專業，也有可能透過地方政府自行來規劃。"],["陳委員瑩：好，你覺得這個部分，你們後來這樣辦理的成效如何？"],["蔡署長孟良：我們是覺得還有努力的空間，如果以目前的狀況，尤其是在中高齡有一些比較需要協助，我們覺得還有機會擴大。"],["陳委員瑩：所以未來還會再繼續吧？"],["蔡署長孟良：是！"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。整部高齡者的就業促進專法，首要的重點是要避免第十二條第一項的差別待遇，剛剛有特別提到罰則是30萬到150萬；其次是第十六條受僱中的高齡勞工提出申訴、不利處分，罰款剛有提到是20、30萬左右，當然這是這次本席質詢的重點，其餘大多是比較鼓勵性質。但雇主要不要配合，因為沒有罰則也很難要求，除了我剛剛講的比較具體以外，其中涉及政府應該有的作為，我想你們應該負起示範的責任。這部法案當時也是有一點趕工，雖然是趕出來的，但是我相信部長也非常地重視，當然在內部有相當地討論，才會在許部長任內通過這樣的法案，也希望勞動部未來能夠努力地推動執行，因為我們現在整個社會高齡化已經是無可避免了，兩位署長應該也都是正當壯年啦！有問題嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：沒有，我是壯世代。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我想在座的每一位我們都會漸漸老去，所以千萬不要辜負這部很重要的法案通過，以及其背後代表的意義，謝謝。"],["蔡署長孟良：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員。","接下來我們請楊曜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-16","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","鄭天財Sra 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52.094, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 52.094, \"end\": 52.114, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 55.075, \"end\": 75.593, \"text\": \"公文報告我們其實12條裡面主要就是不能用年齡做一些對啦啊考積我問你考積啊對考積基本上就是考核跟一些績效嘛好那我們再來看一下第13條的條文喔這個條文是排除12條也就是可以有差別待遇的特別情況那這裡面講說\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 55.075, \"end\": 55.255, \"score\": 0.759}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 55.255, \"end\": 55.595, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 55.595, \"end\": 56.216, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 56.216, \"end\": 56.696, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 56.696, \"end\": 58.057, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 58.057, \"end\": 58.338, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 58.338, \"end\": 58.498, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 58.498, \"end\": 58.698, \"score\": 0.971}, 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\"盾\", \"start\": 97.588, \"end\": 97.608, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 104.363, \"end\": 121.862, \"text\": \"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 條文之間在實務執行上可能會產生一些相關聯。」關聯。文字就是相關,但是它就是矛盾。我們再看一下第17條規定。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 104.363, \"end\": 104.483, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"團\"}, {\"word\": \"擬\"}, {\"word\": \"具\", \"start\": 104.483, \"end\": 104.743, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \":\"}, {\"word\": \"「\"}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 104.743, \"end\": 104.824, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 104.824, \"end\": 104.924, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 104.924, \"end\": 104.944, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"四\", \"start\": 104.944, \"end\": 105.004, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 105.004, \"end\": 105.264, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 105.264, \"end\": 105.324, \"score\": 0.667}, 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\"益\", \"start\": 420.386, \"end\": 420.486, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 420.486, \"end\": 420.607, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"受\", \"start\": 420.607, \"end\": 420.767, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 420.767, \"end\": 420.907, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"影\", \"start\": 420.907, \"end\": 420.927, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"響\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}]}, {\"start\": 421.749, \"end\": 447.567, \"text\": \"好,那我想你們的新的這個替代方案我後續再來好好研究了解一下那再來就是說第19條提到顧主對於有這個工作障礙者要提供職務再設計還有輔具那對於這個有長照需求者那要轉介適當的長照服務資源那我想要請教就是法案通過這幾年你們實施成效如何?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 421.749, \"end\": 422.029, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 422.029, \"end\": 422.189, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 422.189, \"end\": 422.289, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 422.289, \"end\": 422.61, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 422.61, \"end\": 422.95, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, 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\"職務賽色技跟委員報告我們其實目前有相關的一個處理像我們在去年因為就是透過這樣的一個機制我們大概協助了500將近550家事業單位那有2200多人來實施這個職務賽色技的協助所以這是多久的案件統計去年一整年去年一整年有500多件是好那那個所以你們總共大概執行有多少預算\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"賽\"}, {\"word\": \"色\", \"start\": 449.352, \"end\": 449.613, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"技\", \"start\": 449.613, \"end\": 450.053, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 450.053, \"end\": 450.253, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 450.253, \"end\": 450.673, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 450.673, \"end\": 451.114, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 451.114, \"end\": 451.334, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 451.334, \"end\": 451.634, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 451.634, \"end\": 451.874, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 451.874, \"end\": 452.214, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 452.214, 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0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"穎\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 650.896, \"end\": 650.916, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,004 --> 00:00:10,830\n國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案。」\n\n2\n00:00:19,196 --> 00:00:39,061\n主張好在我們今天討論事項中有一個中高齡者及高齡者的就業促進法第13條我仔細研讀之後跟這個12條似乎有這個衝突所以我想在這邊請教一下我們先看一下第12條\n\n3\n00:00:40,721 --> 00:00:52,114\n條文寧定不能因為年齡而有差別待遇,那特別是考積跟待遇。那我在這裡請教一下,考積是不是就是考核績效的意思?\n\n4\n00:00:55,075 --> 00:01:15,593\n公文報告我們其實12條裡面主要就是不能用年齡做一些對啦啊考積我問你考積啊對考積基本上就是考核跟一些績效嘛好那我們再來看一下第13條的條文喔這個條文是排除12條也就是可以有差別待遇的特別情況那這裡面講說\n\n5\n00:01:18,095 --> 00:01:37,608\n基於績效的薪資給付又可以有差別待遇所以署長你看到問題了沒有跟委員報告這個確實這個是在整個執行面上那因為我們這個條文主要是我們調評室這邊調評室在那邊在負責所以你有看到問題嗎你有沒有看到問題矛盾嗎\n\n6\n00:01:44,363 --> 00:02:01,862\n國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案條文之間在實務執行上可能會產生一些相關聯。」關聯。文字就是相關,但是它就是矛盾。我們再看一下第17條規定。\n\n7\n00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:22,492\n顧主對於這個求職或中高齡勞工有這個年齡上的差別待遇的事實那應該要負起賠償責任那我再請教喔就是實務上要如何賠償那賠多少有標準嗎這個是跟委員報告這個部分的話就要從民事訴訟來這邊來就來去他去爭取主張\n\n8\n00:03:04,935 --> 00:03:27,341\n政府提出申訴之後,如果是屬於就業歧視的話認定,那這個部分僱主會被處罰。那處罰30萬到150萬。那如果他是有相關的損失的部分,民事訴訟進行的話,那看他的損失的部分。好,那再來喔,還是說政府收了罰款以後,\n\n9\n00:03:28,956 --> 00:03:46,288\n),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會\n\n10\n00:04:21,249 --> 00:04:38,064\n第十七條規定了這個賠償是不是要勞工走這個司法管道去取得損失賠償因為實務上真的是因為這個年齡造成這個差別待遇的損失而向法院提出訴訟這樣的案例你們總共統計有多少案這個部分的話手邊現在沒有資料\n\n11\n00:04:47,215 --> 00:05:13,353\n議員,那你印象當中有很多嗎?在那個歧視的部分來講,年齡歧視的話,案子的話是沒有那麼多,但是大概是性別是在目前是最多的。就上次我們有討論過,那個是這樣,如果你沒有統計資料,好啦,假如說不多的話,我想訂定這個應付賠償責任的意義到底在哪裡?我們也是\n\n12\n00:05:14,292 --> 00:05:15,474\nμη施出高徒計劃執行成效如何?\n\n13\n00:05:28,615 --> 00:05:50,538\n民事高徒當初在執行本來是希望透過私徒制,不過他其實有產生一些問題,尤其在勞工的部分權益保障是不夠,所以那個計畫當初就暫停,我們就導入到青年就業。現在還有沒有輔導跟獎勵,就是同一工作、分工合作的措施?\n\n14\n00:05:51,078 --> 00:06:19,039\n有,那個,巴委員,我們因為在當初我們希望能夠有一些世代合作,像這個專法的第20條跟第30條都有類似這樣的一個相關的一些法令的提示。所以等於就是說,你們有那個替代方案。有。那這個替代方案會不會產生,就像上次的這個民事出高徒的計畫,其實變相性產生了更多的廉價勞工出來?\n\n15\n00:06:19,864 --> 00:06:49,324\n爾根文包像我們在二十條就是說他絕對不能低於原來的勞動條件這第一個第二個就是我們在執行過程當中其實他一切規定我們都依照相關的法令在做一些你現在是講就是說聘用這個中高齡者不能低於嗎那因為我我剛剛點出是說又過去這個明示出高徒的計劃你說有些問題嗎這些問題就是產生因為師徒制的關係所以他產生更多的這個廉價勞工出來嗎所以你的替代方案有沒有\n\n16\n00:06:50,626 --> 00:07:00,927\n除此之外,會不會產生更多的廉價勞工?這是我剛剛問你的問題。好,謝謝委員提醒。我們現在在計畫的設計都會注意就絕對不能對勞工的權益有受到影響。\n\n17\n00:07:01,749 --> 00:07:27,567\n好,那我想你們的新的這個替代方案我後續再來好好研究了解一下那再來就是說第19條提到顧主對於有這個工作障礙者要提供職務再設計還有輔具那對於這個有長照需求者那要轉介適當的長照服務資源那我想要請教就是法案通過這幾年你們實施成效如何?\n\n18\n00:07:29,352 --> 00:07:55,149\n職務賽色技跟委員報告我們其實目前有相關的一個處理像我們在去年因為就是透過這樣的一個機制我們大概協助了500將近550家事業單位那有2200多人來實施這個職務賽色技的協助所以這是多久的案件統計去年一整年去年一整年有500多件是好那那個所以你們總共大概執行有多少預算\n\n19\n00:07:57,423 --> 00:08:17,237\n則在設計我們預算在兩兩兩千多萬兩千多萬對兩千多萬兩千多萬就是那個府府具的部分對就是他一些相關的府具跟流程改善以及其他的一些相關的一些資產協助措施\n\n20\n00:08:18,576 --> 00:08:19,817\n國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案〔一〕\n\n21\n00:08:37,261 --> 00:08:53,867\n好那你覺得說這個部分你們他這樣子地方政府你們後來這樣子辦理的這個成效如何我們是覺得還有努力的空間啦因為事實上如果有目前尤其是在中高齡齁一些比較需要協助我們覺得未來還會再繼續是是\n\n22\n00:09:16,198 --> 00:09:33,569\n),委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第13會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生\n\n23\n00:09:34,129 --> 00:09:54,124\n僱主要不要配合?因為沒有法則也很難要求,除了剛剛前面講的比較具體以外。但是其中涉及政府的應該有的作為,我想你們應該要負起示範的責任。所以這部法案當時也是有一點趕工,趕出來。\n\n24\n00:09:56,326 --> 00:10:00,589\n),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚\n\n25\n00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:23,041\n),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案\n\n26\n00:10:50,896 --> 00:10:50,916\n謝謝陳穎委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8004\t10830\t國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案。」\n19196\t39061\t主張好在我們今天討論事項中有一個中高齡者及高齡者的就業促進法第13條我仔細研讀之後跟這個12條似乎有這個衝突所以我想在這邊請教一下我們先看一下第12條\n40721\t52114\t條文寧定不能因為年齡而有差別待遇,那特別是考積跟待遇。那我在這裡請教一下,考積是不是就是考核績效的意思?\n55075\t75593\t公文報告我們其實12條裡面主要就是不能用年齡做一些對啦啊考積我問你考積啊對考積基本上就是考核跟一些績效嘛好那我們再來看一下第13條的條文喔這個條文是排除12條也就是可以有差別待遇的特別情況那這裡面講說\n78095\t97608\t基於績效的薪資給付又可以有差別待遇所以署長你看到問題了沒有跟委員報告這個確實這個是在整個執行面上那因為我們這個條文主要是我們調評室這邊調評室在那邊在負責所以你有看到問題嗎你有沒有看到問題矛盾嗎\n104363\t121862\t國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 條文之間在實務執行上可能會產生一些相關聯。」關聯。文字就是相關,但是它就是矛盾。我們再看一下第17條規定。\n126760\t142492\t顧主對於這個求職或中高齡勞工有這個年齡上的差別待遇的事實那應該要負起賠償責任那我再請教喔就是實務上要如何賠償那賠多少有標準嗎這個是跟委員報告這個部分的話就要從民事訴訟來這邊來就來去他去爭取主張\n155930\t179889\t️ ️ ️ ️ ️\n184935\t207341\t政府提出申訴之後,如果是屬於就業歧視的話認定,那這個部分僱主會被處罰。那處罰30萬到150萬。那如果他是有相關的損失的部分,民事訴訟進行的話,那看他的損失的部分。好,那再來喔,還是說政府收了罰款以後,\n208956\t226288\t),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會\n238643\t258080\t️﹏﹏﹏\n261249\t278064\t第十七條規定了這個賠償是不是要勞工走這個司法管道去取得損失賠償因為實務上真的是因為這個年齡造成這個差別待遇的損失而向法院提出訴訟這樣的案例你們總共統計有多少案這個部分的話手邊現在沒有資料\n287215\t313353\t議員,那你印象當中有很多嗎?在那個歧視的部分來講,年齡歧視的話,案子的話是沒有那麼多,但是大概是性別是在目前是最多的。就上次我們有討論過,那個是這樣,如果你沒有統計資料,好啦,假如說不多的話,我想訂定這個應付賠償責任的意義到底在哪裡?我們也是\n314292\t315474\tμη施出高徒計劃執行成效如何?\n328615\t350538\t民事高徒當初在執行本來是希望透過私徒制,不過他其實有產生一些問題,尤其在勞工的部分權益保障是不夠,所以那個計畫當初就暫停,我們就導入到青年就業。現在還有沒有輔導跟獎勵,就是同一工作、分工合作的措施?\n351078\t379039\t有,那個,巴委員,我們因為在當初我們希望能夠有一些世代合作,像這個專法的第20條跟第30條都有類似這樣的一個相關的一些法令的提示。所以等於就是說,你們有那個替代方案。有。那這個替代方案會不會產生,就像上次的這個民事出高徒的計畫,其實變相性產生了更多的廉價勞工出來?\n379864\t409324\t爾根文包像我們在二十條就是說他絕對不能低於原來的勞動條件這第一個第二個就是我們在執行過程當中其實他一切規定我們都依照相關的法令在做一些你現在是講就是說聘用這個中高齡者不能低於嗎那因為我我剛剛點出是說又過去這個明示出高徒的計劃你說有些問題嗎這些問題就是產生因為師徒制的關係所以他產生更多的這個廉價勞工出來嗎所以你的替代方案有沒有\n410626\t420927\t除此之外,會不會產生更多的廉價勞工?這是我剛剛問你的問題。好,謝謝委員提醒。我們現在在計畫的設計都會注意就絕對不能對勞工的權益有受到影響。\n421749\t447567\t好,那我想你們的新的這個替代方案我後續再來好好研究了解一下那再來就是說第19條提到顧主對於有這個工作障礙者要提供職務再設計還有輔具那對於這個有長照需求者那要轉介適當的長照服務資源那我想要請教就是法案通過這幾年你們實施成效如何?\n449352\t475149\t職務賽色技跟委員報告我們其實目前有相關的一個處理像我們在去年因為就是透過這樣的一個機制我們大概協助了500將近550家事業單位那有2200多人來實施這個職務賽色技的協助所以這是多久的案件統計去年一整年去年一整年有500多件是好那那個所以你們總共大概執行有多少預算\n477423\t497237\t則在設計我們預算在兩兩兩千多萬兩千多萬對兩千多萬兩千多萬就是那個府府具的部分對就是他一些相關的府具跟流程改善以及其他的一些相關的一些資產協助措施\n498576\t499817\t國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 〔一〕\n517261\t533867\t好那你覺得說這個部分你們他這樣子地方政府你們後來這樣子辦理的這個成效如何我們是覺得還有努力的空間啦因為事實上如果有目前尤其是在中高齡齁一些比較需要協助我們覺得未來還會再繼續是是\n535247\t556118\t獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲\n556198\t573569\t),委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第13會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生\n574129\t594124\t僱主要不要配合?因為沒有法則也很難要求,除了剛剛前面講的比較具體以外。但是其中涉及政府的應該有的作為,我想你們應該要負起示範的責任。所以這部法案當時也是有一點趕工,趕出來。\n596326\t600589\t),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案 案 ﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚\n620640\t623041\t),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案\n650896\t650916\t謝謝陳穎委員\n","txt":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案。」\n主張好在我們今天討論事項中有一個中高齡者及高齡者的就業促進法第13條我仔細研讀之後跟這個12條似乎有這個衝突所以我想在這邊請教一下我們先看一下第12條\n條文寧定不能因為年齡而有差別待遇,那特別是考積跟待遇。那我在這裡請教一下,考積是不是就是考核績效的意思?\n公文報告我們其實12條裡面主要就是不能用年齡做一些對啦啊考積我問你考積啊對考積基本上就是考核跟一些績效嘛好那我們再來看一下第13條的條文喔這個條文是排除12條也就是可以有差別待遇的特別情況那這裡面講說\n基於績效的薪資給付又可以有差別待遇所以署長你看到問題了沒有跟委員報告這個確實這個是在整個執行面上那因為我們這個條文主要是我們調評室這邊調評室在那邊在負責所以你有看到問題嗎你有沒有看到問題矛盾嗎\n國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 條文之間在實務執行上可能會產生一些相關聯。」關聯。文字就是相關,但是它就是矛盾。我們再看一下第17條規定。\n顧主對於這個求職或中高齡勞工有這個年齡上的差別待遇的事實那應該要負起賠償責任那我再請教喔就是實務上要如何賠償那賠多少有標準嗎這個是跟委員報告這個部分的話就要從民事訴訟來這邊來就來去他去爭取主張\n️ ️ ️ ️ ️\n政府提出申訴之後,如果是屬於就業歧視的話認定,那這個部分僱主會被處罰。那處罰30萬到150萬。那如果他是有相關的損失的部分,民事訴訟進行的話,那看他的損失的部分。好,那再來喔,還是說政府收了罰款以後,\n),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會\n️﹏﹏﹏\n第十七條規定了這個賠償是不是要勞工走這個司法管道去取得損失賠償因為實務上真的是因為這個年齡造成這個差別待遇的損失而向法院提出訴訟這樣的案例你們總共統計有多少案這個部分的話手邊現在沒有資料\n議員,那你印象當中有很多嗎?在那個歧視的部分來講,年齡歧視的話,案子的話是沒有那麼多,但是大概是性別是在目前是最多的。就上次我們有討論過,那個是這樣,如果你沒有統計資料,好啦,假如說不多的話,我想訂定這個應付賠償責任的意義到底在哪裡?我們也是\nμη施出高徒計劃執行成效如何?\n民事高徒當初在執行本來是希望透過私徒制,不過他其實有產生一些問題,尤其在勞工的部分權益保障是不夠,所以那個計畫當初就暫停,我們就導入到青年就業。現在還有沒有輔導跟獎勵,就是同一工作、分工合作的措施?\n有,那個,巴委員,我們因為在當初我們希望能夠有一些世代合作,像這個專法的第20條跟第30條都有類似這樣的一個相關的一些法令的提示。所以等於就是說,你們有那個替代方案。有。那這個替代方案會不會產生,就像上次的這個民事出高徒的計畫,其實變相性產生了更多的廉價勞工出來?\n爾根文包像我們在二十條就是說他絕對不能低於原來的勞動條件這第一個第二個就是我們在執行過程當中其實他一切規定我們都依照相關的法令在做一些你現在是講就是說聘用這個中高齡者不能低於嗎那因為我我剛剛點出是說又過去這個明示出高徒的計劃你說有些問題嗎這些問題就是產生因為師徒制的關係所以他產生更多的這個廉價勞工出來嗎所以你的替代方案有沒有\n除此之外,會不會產生更多的廉價勞工?這是我剛剛問你的問題。好,謝謝委員提醒。我們現在在計畫的設計都會注意就絕對不能對勞工的權益有受到影響。\n好,那我想你們的新的這個替代方案我後續再來好好研究了解一下那再來就是說第19條提到顧主對於有這個工作障礙者要提供職務再設計還有輔具那對於這個有長照需求者那要轉介適當的長照服務資源那我想要請教就是法案通過這幾年你們實施成效如何?\n職務賽色技跟委員報告我們其實目前有相關的一個處理像我們在去年因為就是透過這樣的一個機制我們大概協助了500將近550家事業單位那有2200多人來實施這個職務賽色技的協助所以這是多久的案件統計去年一整年去年一整年有500多件是好那那個所以你們總共大概執行有多少預算\n則在設計我們預算在兩兩兩千多萬兩千多萬對兩千多萬兩千多萬就是那個府府具的部分對就是他一些相關的府具跟流程改善以及其他的一些相關的一些資產協助措施\n國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 〔一〕\n好那你覺得說這個部分你們他這樣子地方政府你們後來這樣子辦理的這個成效如何我們是覺得還有努力的空間啦因為事實上如果有目前尤其是在中高齡齁一些比較需要協助我們覺得未來還會再繼續是是\n獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲\n),委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第13會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生\n僱主要不要配合?因為沒有法則也很難要求,除了剛剛前面講的比較具體以外。但是其中涉及政府的應該有的作為,我想你們應該要負起示範的責任。所以這部法案當時也是有一點趕工,趕出來。\n),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案 案 ﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚\n),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案\n謝謝陳穎委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.004 --> 00:10.830\n國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案。」\n\n00:19.196 --> 00:39.061\n主張好在我們今天討論事項中有一個中高齡者及高齡者的就業促進法第13條我仔細研讀之後跟這個12條似乎有這個衝突所以我想在這邊請教一下我們先看一下第12條\n\n00:40.721 --> 00:52.114\n條文寧定不能因為年齡而有差別待遇,那特別是考積跟待遇。那我在這裡請教一下,考積是不是就是考核績效的意思?\n\n00:55.075 --> 01:15.593\n公文報告我們其實12條裡面主要就是不能用年齡做一些對啦啊考積我問你考積啊對考積基本上就是考核跟一些績效嘛好那我們再來看一下第13條的條文喔這個條文是排除12條也就是可以有差別待遇的特別情況那這裡面講說\n\n01:18.095 --> 01:37.608\n基於績效的薪資給付又可以有差別待遇所以署長你看到問題了沒有跟委員報告這個確實這個是在整個執行面上那因為我們這個條文主要是我們調評室這邊調評室在那邊在負責所以你有看到問題嗎你有沒有看到問題矛盾嗎\n\n01:44.363 --> 02:01.862\n國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案條文之間在實務執行上可能會產生一些相關聯。」關聯。文字就是相關,但是它就是矛盾。我們再看一下第17條規定。\n\n02:06.760 --> 02:22.492\n顧主對於這個求職或中高齡勞工有這個年齡上的差別待遇的事實那應該要負起賠償責任那我再請教喔就是實務上要如何賠償那賠多少有標準嗎這個是跟委員報告這個部分的話就要從民事訴訟來這邊來就來去他去爭取主張\n\n03:04.935 --> 03:27.341\n政府提出申訴之後,如果是屬於就業歧視的話認定,那這個部分僱主會被處罰。那處罰30萬到150萬。那如果他是有相關的損失的部分,民事訴訟進行的話,那看他的損失的部分。好,那再來喔,還是說政府收了罰款以後,\n\n03:28.956 --> 03:46.288\n),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會\n\n04:21.249 --> 04:38.064\n第十七條規定了這個賠償是不是要勞工走這個司法管道去取得損失賠償因為實務上真的是因為這個年齡造成這個差別待遇的損失而向法院提出訴訟這樣的案例你們總共統計有多少案這個部分的話手邊現在沒有資料\n\n04:47.215 --> 05:13.353\n議員,那你印象當中有很多嗎?在那個歧視的部分來講,年齡歧視的話,案子的話是沒有那麼多,但是大概是性別是在目前是最多的。就上次我們有討論過,那個是這樣,如果你沒有統計資料,好啦,假如說不多的話,我想訂定這個應付賠償責任的意義到底在哪裡?我們也是\n\n05:14.292 --> 05:15.474\nμη施出高徒計劃執行成效如何?\n\n05:28.615 --> 05:50.538\n民事高徒當初在執行本來是希望透過私徒制,不過他其實有產生一些問題,尤其在勞工的部分權益保障是不夠,所以那個計畫當初就暫停,我們就導入到青年就業。現在還有沒有輔導跟獎勵,就是同一工作、分工合作的措施?\n\n05:51.078 --> 06:19.039\n有,那個,巴委員,我們因為在當初我們希望能夠有一些世代合作,像這個專法的第20條跟第30條都有類似這樣的一個相關的一些法令的提示。所以等於就是說,你們有那個替代方案。有。那這個替代方案會不會產生,就像上次的這個民事出高徒的計畫,其實變相性產生了更多的廉價勞工出來?\n\n06:19.864 --> 06:49.324\n爾根文包像我們在二十條就是說他絕對不能低於原來的勞動條件這第一個第二個就是我們在執行過程當中其實他一切規定我們都依照相關的法令在做一些你現在是講就是說聘用這個中高齡者不能低於嗎那因為我我剛剛點出是說又過去這個明示出高徒的計劃你說有些問題嗎這些問題就是產生因為師徒制的關係所以他產生更多的這個廉價勞工出來嗎所以你的替代方案有沒有\n\n06:50.626 --> 07:00.927\n除此之外,會不會產生更多的廉價勞工?這是我剛剛問你的問題。好,謝謝委員提醒。我們現在在計畫的設計都會注意就絕對不能對勞工的權益有受到影響。\n\n07:01.749 --> 07:27.567\n好,那我想你們的新的這個替代方案我後續再來好好研究了解一下那再來就是說第19條提到顧主對於有這個工作障礙者要提供職務再設計還有輔具那對於這個有長照需求者那要轉介適當的長照服務資源那我想要請教就是法案通過這幾年你們實施成效如何?\n\n07:29.352 --> 07:55.149\n職務賽色技跟委員報告我們其實目前有相關的一個處理像我們在去年因為就是透過這樣的一個機制我們大概協助了500將近550家事業單位那有2200多人來實施這個職務賽色技的協助所以這是多久的案件統計去年一整年去年一整年有500多件是好那那個所以你們總共大概執行有多少預算\n\n07:57.423 --> 08:17.237\n則在設計我們預算在兩兩兩千多萬兩千多萬對兩千多萬兩千多萬就是那個府府具的部分對就是他一些相關的府具跟流程改善以及其他的一些相關的一些資產協助措施\n\n08:18.576 --> 08:19.817\n國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案〔一〕\n\n08:37.261 --> 08:53.867\n好那你覺得說這個部分你們他這樣子地方政府你們後來這樣子辦理的這個成效如何我們是覺得還有努力的空間啦因為事實上如果有目前尤其是在中高齡齁一些比較需要協助我們覺得未來還會再繼續是是\n\n09:16.198 --> 09:33.569\n),委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第13會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生\n\n09:34.129 --> 09:54.124\n僱主要不要配合?因為沒有法則也很難要求,除了剛剛前面講的比較具體以外。但是其中涉及政府的應該有的作為,我想你們應該要負起示範的責任。所以這部法案當時也是有一點趕工,趕出來。\n\n09:56.326 --> 10:00.589\n),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚\n\n10:20.640 --> 10:23.041\n),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案\n\n10:50.896 --> 10:50.916\n謝謝陳穎委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.004,"end":10.83,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案。」"},{"start":19.196,"end":39.061,"text":"主張好在我們今天討論事項中有一個中高齡者及高齡者的就業促進法第13條我仔細研讀之後跟這個12條似乎有這個衝突所以我想在這邊請教一下我們先看一下第12條"},{"start":40.721,"end":52.114,"text":"條文寧定不能因為年齡而有差別待遇,那特別是考積跟待遇。那我在這裡請教一下,考積是不是就是考核績效的意思?"},{"start":55.075,"end":75.593,"text":"公文報告我們其實12條裡面主要就是不能用年齡做一些對啦啊考積我問你考積啊對考積基本上就是考核跟一些績效嘛好那我們再來看一下第13條的條文喔這個條文是排除12條也就是可以有差別待遇的特別情況那這裡面講說"},{"start":78.095,"end":97.608,"text":"基於績效的薪資給付又可以有差別待遇所以署長你看到問題了沒有跟委員報告這個確實這個是在整個執行面上那因為我們這個條文主要是我們調評室這邊調評室在那邊在負責所以你有看到問題嗎你有沒有看到問題矛盾嗎"},{"start":104.363,"end":121.862,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 條文之間在實務執行上可能會產生一些相關聯。」關聯。文字就是相關,但是它就是矛盾。我們再看一下第17條規定。"},{"start":126.76,"end":142.492,"text":"顧主對於這個求職或中高齡勞工有這個年齡上的差別待遇的事實那應該要負起賠償責任那我再請教喔就是實務上要如何賠償那賠多少有標準嗎這個是跟委員報告這個部分的話就要從民事訴訟來這邊來就來去他去爭取主張"},{"start":155.93,"end":179.889,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":184.935,"end":207.341,"text":"政府提出申訴之後,如果是屬於就業歧視的話認定,那這個部分僱主會被處罰。那處罰30萬到150萬。那如果他是有相關的損失的部分,民事訴訟進行的話,那看他的損失的部分。好,那再來喔,還是說政府收了罰款以後,"},{"start":208.956,"end":226.288,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會"},{"start":238.643,"end":258.08,"text":" ️﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":261.249,"end":278.064,"text":"第十七條規定了這個賠償是不是要勞工走這個司法管道去取得損失賠償因為實務上真的是因為這個年齡造成這個差別待遇的損失而向法院提出訴訟這樣的案例你們總共統計有多少案這個部分的話手邊現在沒有資料"},{"start":287.215,"end":313.353,"text":"議員,那你印象當中有很多嗎?在那個歧視的部分來講,年齡歧視的話,案子的話是沒有那麼多,但是大概是性別是在目前是最多的。就上次我們有討論過,那個是這樣,如果你沒有統計資料,好啦,假如說不多的話,我想訂定這個應付賠償責任的意義到底在哪裡?我們也是"},{"start":314.292,"end":315.474,"text":"μη施出高徒計劃執行成效如何?"},{"start":328.615,"end":350.538,"text":"民事高徒當初在執行本來是希望透過私徒制,不過他其實有產生一些問題,尤其在勞工的部分權益保障是不夠,所以那個計畫當初就暫停,我們就導入到青年就業。現在還有沒有輔導跟獎勵,就是同一工作、分工合作的措施?"},{"start":351.078,"end":379.039,"text":"有,那個,巴委員,我們因為在當初我們希望能夠有一些世代合作,像這個專法的第20條跟第30條都有類似這樣的一個相關的一些法令的提示。所以等於就是說,你們有那個替代方案。有。那這個替代方案會不會產生,就像上次的這個民事出高徒的計畫,其實變相性產生了更多的廉價勞工出來?"},{"start":379.864,"end":409.324,"text":"爾根文包像我們在二十條就是說他絕對不能低於原來的勞動條件這第一個第二個就是我們在執行過程當中其實他一切規定我們都依照相關的法令在做一些你現在是講就是說聘用這個中高齡者不能低於嗎那因為我我剛剛點出是說又過去這個明示出高徒的計劃你說有些問題嗎這些問題就是產生因為師徒制的關係所以他產生更多的這個廉價勞工出來嗎所以你的替代方案有沒有"},{"start":410.626,"end":420.927,"text":"除此之外,會不會產生更多的廉價勞工?這是我剛剛問你的問題。好,謝謝委員提醒。我們現在在計畫的設計都會注意就絕對不能對勞工的權益有受到影響。"},{"start":421.749,"end":447.567,"text":"好,那我想你們的新的這個替代方案我後續再來好好研究了解一下那再來就是說第19條提到顧主對於有這個工作障礙者要提供職務再設計還有輔具那對於這個有長照需求者那要轉介適當的長照服務資源那我想要請教就是法案通過這幾年你們實施成效如何?"},{"start":449.352,"end":475.149,"text":"職務賽色技跟委員報告我們其實目前有相關的一個處理像我們在去年因為就是透過這樣的一個機制我們大概協助了500將近550家事業單位那有2200多人來實施這個職務賽色技的協助所以這是多久的案件統計去年一整年去年一整年有500多件是好那那個所以你們總共大概執行有多少預算"},{"start":477.423,"end":497.237,"text":"則在設計我們預算在兩兩兩千多萬兩千多萬對兩千多萬兩千多萬就是那個府府具的部分對就是他一些相關的府具跟流程改善以及其他的一些相關的一些資產協助措施"},{"start":498.576,"end":499.817,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 〔一〕"},{"start":517.261,"end":533.867,"text":"好那你覺得說這個部分你們他這樣子地方政府你們後來這樣子辦理的這個成效如何我們是覺得還有努力的空間啦因為事實上如果有目前尤其是在中高齡齁一些比較需要協助我們覺得未來還會再繼續是是"},{"start":535.247,"end":556.118,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":556.198,"end":573.569,"text":"),委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第13會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生"},{"start":574.129,"end":594.124,"text":"僱主要不要配合?因為沒有法則也很難要求,除了剛剛前面講的比較具體以外。但是其中涉及政府的應該有的作為,我想你們應該要負起示範的責任。所以這部法案當時也是有一點趕工,趕出來。"},{"start":596.326,"end":600.589,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案 案 ﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚"},{"start":620.64,"end":623.041,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":650.896,"end":650.916,"text":"謝謝陳穎委員"}]}}}}