{"id":152486,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152486","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/afc6a4920ef77da597409f93322ebca3acfaaf89e6642ffc0861210b3d4118f4a5ed6df0179e1a205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"12:18:54 - 12:21:56","影片長度":"00:03:02","會議時間":"2024-05-14T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期程序委員會第11次會議（事由：審定本院第11屆第1會期第14次會議議事日程及人民請願案）","date":"2024-05-14","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期程序委員會第11次會議","type":"委員會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[27],"id":"委員會-11-1-27-11"},"duration":182,"end_time":"2024-05-14T12:21:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-14T12:18:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":987,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（12時18分）我只是想要在這邊，再針對民眾黨提出擋法案這件事情表達遺憾之意。我們已經跟民眾黨溝通那麼多次，卻還是選擇在程序委員會的報告事項就把事項抽出，所以再次嚴厲譴責這件事情。我還是要再說一次，我已經聽到國、眾兩黨講了很多次，就是這一個案子為什麼不在立法委員行為法或職權行使法。我再講一次，假設今天有性騷，假設一家公司裡面已經有性騷相關的規定，我們就不用訂定性騷相關的法律嗎？又或者說立法院裡面有洩密相關的規定，表示整個中華民國就不用再訂定刑法第一百三十二條嗎？我還是要再鄭重的說一次，這些法案完全沒有衝突，而且我們今天有提出8個完全不同的版本，這些不同的版本針對國安的情狀及規制不一而足。選擇在程序事項把這個東西抽掉，然後不進入委員會討論，這個完全不符合民主的機制。所以還是要再次強調，如果民眾黨像你們的總召黃國昌委員不斷的強調委員會中心主義，結果連那麼重要的爭議都不讓大家發言，然後也不讓大家進委員會討論，那這樣委員會中心主義是做什麼用的？如果今天這件事情是有爭議的，那不是就應該到委員會好好來討論嗎？陳玉珍委員針對這一個案子也發表過很多不同的見解啊，那為什麼不來司法及法制委員會、外交及國防委員會跟內政委員會，直接告訴我們這個法案的問題在哪裡？大家都是念法律的，不就是可以好好在委員會討論哪一樣的方案對這個國家是最好的嗎？為什麼要在程序委員會就把這個案子抽掉？這是一件完全不合理的事情。所以我還是要再說一次，拜託民眾黨不要再為虎作倀，我知道國民黨可能有自己的一些考量，但民眾黨我們已經溝通了多次，卻還是不斷把這一個法案、把這一個擋下的事情放在程序委員會的議事台上，甚至上次還說我們不懂公務員相關的規定。大家要知道公務員的相關規定，有內部的規範跟外部的規範，這兩種規範其實是一點關係都沒有的，這邊在座念法律的我看也不少，但結果連最簡單的內部規範跟外部規範的差別都沒有辦法釐清，那更不要講相關的聯審會對於陸委會、內政部到底怎麼審查、這個審查是形式的審查還是實質的審查，都搞不清楚，所以我們這邊有不少是地方民代出身，對於聯審會運作的方式、形式跟實質是為了怎樣的透明化，完全不予討論，然後就在程序委員會把這個案子擋下來，我覺得實非國家之福。我發言到這邊，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請陳玉珍委員發言。"],["陳委員玉珍：是不是可以請主席稍微維持一下秩序？"],["主席：陳委員，我們現在想法是這樣，就是如果沒有拿麥克風，因為我們比較沒有辦法確認這聲音大聲還是小聲，沒關係……"],["陳委員玉珍：我就發言就對了。"],["主席：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：因為……"],["主席：我瞭解。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-27-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","林國成","林楚茵","洪孟楷","沈伯洋","陳玉珍","莊瑞雄","王正旭"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期程序委員會第11次會議紀錄","content":"定本院第11屆第1會期第14次會議議事日程及人民請願案","agenda_id":"1134501_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"152486","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152486","tool":"pyannote","id":"152486-pyannote"},"job_id":"4eMmPlzQLctCz0Ap","queued_at":"2024-05-31 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\"end\": 89.018, \"text\": \"不斷地強調委員會中心主義結果連那麼重要的爭議都不讓大家發言然後也不讓大家進去委員會討論那這樣委員會中心主義是做什麼用的如果今天這件事情是有爭議的那就不是應該到委員會好好來討論嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 74.245, \"end\": 74.485, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"斷\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 74.485, \"end\": 75.066, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"強\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 75.066, \"end\": 75.626, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 75.626, \"end\": 75.827, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 75.827, \"end\": 76.067, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 76.067, \"end\": 76.988, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 76.988, \"end\": 77.308, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"連\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 77.308, \"end\": 77.568, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 77.568, \"end\": 77.768, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 77.768, 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00:00:16,387\n好我只是想要在這邊呢在針對民眾黨提出黨法案這件事情表達遺憾之意齁這個呢已經跟民眾黨溝通了那麼多次齁那卻還是選擇在程序委員會的時候再報告事項然後就把事項抽出齁所以這次嚴厲譴責這件事情齁\n\n2\n00:00:18,149 --> 00:00:36,467\n那我還是要再說一次齁我已經聽到齁國眾兩黨講了很多次了齁就是說這個案子呢為什麼不在立法委員行為法或職權行使法那我就再講一次齁假設今天有性騷假設一家公司裡面已經有性騷相關的規定然後所以我們就不用訂性騷相關的法律嗎\n\n3\n00:00:37,388 --> 00:00:52,963\n又或者說我們立法院裡面有洩密相關的規定那就表示我們整個中華民國就不用再定刑法第132條所以我還是要再鄭重的說一次這些法案完全沒有衝突而且我們今天有提出了8個完全不同的版本\n\n4\n00:00:53,624 --> 00:01:13,645\n那這些不同的版本的針對國安的這些形狀還有國安的一些規制不一而足再選擇在程序事項然後把這個東西抽掉然後不進去委員會討論這個完全不符合民主的機制所以還是要再次強調如果說民眾黨像你們的總召黃國昌委員\n\n5\n00:01:14,245 --> 00:01:29,018\n不斷地強調委員會中心主義結果連那麼重要的爭議都不讓大家發言然後也不讓大家進去委員會討論那這樣委員會中心主義是做什麼用的如果今天這件事情是有爭議的那就不是應該到委員會好好來討論嗎\n\n6\n00:01:30,439 --> 00:01:53,298\n陳昀臻委員針對這一個案子也發表過很多不同的見解那為什麼不來司法法治委員會為什麼不來國防外交委員會跟內政委員會直接來告訴我們這個法案的問題在哪裡對不對大家都是念法律的不就是可以好好在委員會來討論哪一樣的方案對這個國家是最好的嗎為什麼要在程序委員會就把這個案子抽掉這是一件完全不合理的事情\n\n7\n00:01:54,139 --> 00:02:13,412\n所以我還是要再說一次拜託民眾黨不要再為虎作長我知道國民黨可能有自己一些的考量但民眾黨我們已經溝通了多次卻還是不斷把這個法案把這個黨下的事情放在程序委員會這個議事台上然後甚至上次還說我們不懂公務員相關的規定\n\n8\n00:02:14,733 --> 00:02:36,385\n大家要知道公務員相關的一個規定有內部的規範跟外部的規範這兩種規範其實是一點關係都沒有的這邊在座念法律的我看也不少但結果連最簡單的內部規範跟外部規範的差別都沒有辦法釐清那更不要講說對於陸委會還有我們的內政部還有我們的相關的聯審會到底是怎麼審查\n\n9\n00:02:37,645 --> 00:03:01,987\n這個審查是形式的審查還是實質的審查都搞不清楚所以呢既我們這邊有不少是地方的民代那對於這個聯審會對於這一些到底運作的方式形式跟實質是為了怎樣的透明化完全不予討論然後就在程序把這個案子擋下來我覺得是非國家之福那我發言到這邊謝謝好謝謝那我們下一位請陳玉珍委員發言\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1932\t16387\t好我只是想要在這邊呢在針對民眾黨提出黨法案這件事情表達遺憾之意齁這個呢已經跟民眾黨溝通了那麼多次齁那卻還是選擇在程序委員會的時候再報告事項然後就把事項抽出齁所以這次嚴厲譴責這件事情齁\n18149\t36467\t那我還是要再說一次齁我已經聽到齁國眾兩黨講了很多次了齁就是說這個案子呢為什麼不在立法委員行為法或職權行使法那我就再講一次齁假設今天有性騷假設一家公司裡面已經有性騷相關的規定然後所以我們就不用訂性騷相關的法律嗎\n37388\t52963\t又或者說我們立法院裡面有洩密相關的規定那就表示我們整個中華民國就不用再定刑法第132條所以我還是要再鄭重的說一次這些法案完全沒有衝突而且我們今天有提出了8個完全不同的版本\n53624\t73645\t那這些不同的版本的針對國安的這些形狀還有國安的一些規制不一而足再選擇在程序事項然後把這個東西抽掉然後不進去委員會討論這個完全不符合民主的機制所以還是要再次強調如果說民眾黨像你們的總召黃國昌委員\n74245\t89018\t不斷地強調委員會中心主義結果連那麼重要的爭議都不讓大家發言然後也不讓大家進去委員會討論那這樣委員會中心主義是做什麼用的如果今天這件事情是有爭議的那就不是應該到委員會好好來討論嗎\n90439\t113298\t陳昀臻委員針對這一個案子也發表過很多不同的見解那為什麼不來司法法治委員會為什麼不來國防外交委員會跟內政委員會直接來告訴我們這個法案的問題在哪裡對不對 大家都是念法律的不就是可以好好在委員會來討論哪一樣的方案對這個國家是最好的嗎為什麼要在程序委員會就把這個案子抽掉這是一件完全不合理的事情\n114139\t133412\t所以我還是要再說一次拜託民眾黨不要再為虎作長我知道國民黨可能有自己一些的考量但民眾黨我們已經溝通了多次卻還是不斷把這個法案把這個黨下的事情放在程序委員會這個議事台上然後甚至上次還說我們不懂公務員相關的規定\n134733\t156385\t大家要知道公務員相關的一個規定有內部的規範跟外部的規範這兩種規範其實是一點關係都沒有的這邊在座念法律的我看也不少但結果連最簡單的內部規範跟外部規範的差別都沒有辦法釐清那更不要講說對於陸委會還有我們的內政部還有我們的相關的聯審會到底是怎麼審查\n157645\t181987\t這個審查是形式的審查還是實質的審查都搞不清楚所以呢既我們這邊有不少是地方的民代那對於這個聯審會對於這一些到底運作的方式形式跟實質是為了怎樣的透明化完全不予討論然後就在程序把這個案子擋下來我覺得是非國家之福那我發言到這邊 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請陳玉珍委員發言\n","txt":"好我只是想要在這邊呢在針對民眾黨提出黨法案這件事情表達遺憾之意齁這個呢已經跟民眾黨溝通了那麼多次齁那卻還是選擇在程序委員會的時候再報告事項然後就把事項抽出齁所以這次嚴厲譴責這件事情齁\n那我還是要再說一次齁我已經聽到齁國眾兩黨講了很多次了齁就是說這個案子呢為什麼不在立法委員行為法或職權行使法那我就再講一次齁假設今天有性騷假設一家公司裡面已經有性騷相關的規定然後所以我們就不用訂性騷相關的法律嗎\n又或者說我們立法院裡面有洩密相關的規定那就表示我們整個中華民國就不用再定刑法第132條所以我還是要再鄭重的說一次這些法案完全沒有衝突而且我們今天有提出了8個完全不同的版本\n那這些不同的版本的針對國安的這些形狀還有國安的一些規制不一而足再選擇在程序事項然後把這個東西抽掉然後不進去委員會討論這個完全不符合民主的機制所以還是要再次強調如果說民眾黨像你們的總召黃國昌委員\n不斷地強調委員會中心主義結果連那麼重要的爭議都不讓大家發言然後也不讓大家進去委員會討論那這樣委員會中心主義是做什麼用的如果今天這件事情是有爭議的那就不是應該到委員會好好來討論嗎\n陳昀臻委員針對這一個案子也發表過很多不同的見解那為什麼不來司法法治委員會為什麼不來國防外交委員會跟內政委員會直接來告訴我們這個法案的問題在哪裡對不對 大家都是念法律的不就是可以好好在委員會來討論哪一樣的方案對這個國家是最好的嗎為什麼要在程序委員會就把這個案子抽掉這是一件完全不合理的事情\n所以我還是要再說一次拜託民眾黨不要再為虎作長我知道國民黨可能有自己一些的考量但民眾黨我們已經溝通了多次卻還是不斷把這個法案把這個黨下的事情放在程序委員會這個議事台上然後甚至上次還說我們不懂公務員相關的規定\n大家要知道公務員相關的一個規定有內部的規範跟外部的規範這兩種規範其實是一點關係都沒有的這邊在座念法律的我看也不少但結果連最簡單的內部規範跟外部規範的差別都沒有辦法釐清那更不要講說對於陸委會還有我們的內政部還有我們的相關的聯審會到底是怎麼審查\n這個審查是形式的審查還是實質的審查都搞不清楚所以呢既我們這邊有不少是地方的民代那對於這個聯審會對於這一些到底運作的方式形式跟實質是為了怎樣的透明化完全不予討論然後就在程序把這個案子擋下來我覺得是非國家之福那我發言到這邊 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請陳玉珍委員發言\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.932 --> 00:16.387\n好我只是想要在這邊呢在針對民眾黨提出黨法案這件事情表達遺憾之意齁這個呢已經跟民眾黨溝通了那麼多次齁那卻還是選擇在程序委員會的時候再報告事項然後就把事項抽出齁所以這次嚴厲譴責這件事情齁\n\n00:18.149 --> 00:36.467\n那我還是要再說一次齁我已經聽到齁國眾兩黨講了很多次了齁就是說這個案子呢為什麼不在立法委員行為法或職權行使法那我就再講一次齁假設今天有性騷假設一家公司裡面已經有性騷相關的規定然後所以我們就不用訂性騷相關的法律嗎\n\n00:37.388 --> 00:52.963\n又或者說我們立法院裡面有洩密相關的規定那就表示我們整個中華民國就不用再定刑法第132條所以我還是要再鄭重的說一次這些法案完全沒有衝突而且我們今天有提出了8個完全不同的版本\n\n00:53.624 --> 01:13.645\n那這些不同的版本的針對國安的這些形狀還有國安的一些規制不一而足再選擇在程序事項然後把這個東西抽掉然後不進去委員會討論這個完全不符合民主的機制所以還是要再次強調如果說民眾黨像你們的總召黃國昌委員\n\n01:14.245 --> 01:29.018\n不斷地強調委員會中心主義結果連那麼重要的爭議都不讓大家發言然後也不讓大家進去委員會討論那這樣委員會中心主義是做什麼用的如果今天這件事情是有爭議的那就不是應該到委員會好好來討論嗎\n\n01:30.439 --> 01:53.298\n陳昀臻委員針對這一個案子也發表過很多不同的見解那為什麼不來司法法治委員會為什麼不來國防外交委員會跟內政委員會直接來告訴我們這個法案的問題在哪裡對不對大家都是念法律的不就是可以好好在委員會來討論哪一樣的方案對這個國家是最好的嗎為什麼要在程序委員會就把這個案子抽掉這是一件完全不合理的事情\n\n01:54.139 --> 02:13.412\n所以我還是要再說一次拜託民眾黨不要再為虎作長我知道國民黨可能有自己一些的考量但民眾黨我們已經溝通了多次卻還是不斷把這個法案把這個黨下的事情放在程序委員會這個議事台上然後甚至上次還說我們不懂公務員相關的規定\n\n02:14.733 --> 02:36.385\n大家要知道公務員相關的一個規定有內部的規範跟外部的規範這兩種規範其實是一點關係都沒有的這邊在座念法律的我看也不少但結果連最簡單的內部規範跟外部規範的差別都沒有辦法釐清那更不要講說對於陸委會還有我們的內政部還有我們的相關的聯審會到底是怎麼審查\n\n02:37.645 --> 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