{"id":152490,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152490","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/afc6a4920ef77da5fbbd12dadcb3e74eacfaaf89e6642ffc0861210b3d4118f4cd63afc3e7d0c2bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"12:30:31 - 12:33:42","影片長度":"00:03:11","會議時間":"2024-05-14T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期程序委員會第11次會議（事由：審定本院第11屆第1會期第14次會議議事日程及人民請願案）","date":"2024-05-14","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期程序委員會第11次會議","type":"委員會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[27],"id":"委員會-11-1-27-11"},"duration":191,"end_time":"2024-05-14T12:33:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-14T12:30:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1003,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（12時30分）謝謝主席。我是建議主席其實可以讓林委員發言，我是覺得比較奇怪，因為今天是他來擋案，結果上來說明的全部都是國民黨，其實也是蠻奇怪的一件事情。","我在這邊先回應一下陳委員，第一個，他說委員會是可以做審查。沒有錯，我們到處都是委員會，但這個叫程序委員會，我還是再講一次，其實我上次已經跟你講過一次了，「程序」怎麼拼，ㄔㄥ二聲程、ㄒㄩ四聲序，程序。程序要看什麼？看你的修法理由是不是沒寫、看你的連署人數是否不足，這個才叫做程序委員會，不然程序委員會可以審查實質的話，那你到底要各個委員會要幹嘛？要院會要幹嘛？所以我覺得這一點真的實在是誤導大家的視聽，而且說真的，沒有看法條，像今天不小心誤擋到自己黨的法案，很明顯的就是連今天自己在擋什麼都沒看到。我還記得第一次在程序委員會抽案的時候，陳委員就上來說：這個法案要規範的話，應該要規範到其他國家啊！如果在韓國、在其他國家遇到的話，這個不是也應該要規範嗎？有啊、有規範啊！我就寫在裡面啊！就表示連法條都沒有看，然後就決定要在程序委員會把這個案子抽出來。","所以我還是必須要跟大家講一下，程序就是要看到底形式上有沒有符合，如果你想看一個案子形式上符不符合，你好歹要閱讀中文吧？你好歹要把法條看過去一次吧？結果連法條都不看，自己黨內是誰提案、什麼事情都不看，然後一律舉手擋下，我覺得這個實在是有失民主的風範。","再來，不要再說什麼要聽聽地方的聲音，立法委員今天要提案就是15人連署，15人連署代表的就是一定基礎的民意，有人規定要113位立委連署才能夠提案嗎？更不要說你們的環島高鐵條例請問有傾聽過民意嗎？所以不要再用這種混淆、用這種民意的方式、民粹的語言去訴求一個法案到底要擋還是不要擋。","最後，說什麼這是民代版的反滲透法，顯然就是連反滲透法都沒有看過，反滲透法是有刑責的，反滲透法的設計是什麼？是你今天干預選舉、你今天拿了中國的錢在這邊做什麼？在這邊做一些政治獻金，那個是反滲透法的規範。今天兩岸條例的規範不是在規範這件事情，我們在規範的是透明化，我們在規範的是，如果你今天去的時候，你必須要報准，這個報准的機制在現在的直轄市市長、縣市市長本來就已經存在，聯審會本來就存在，每年都是有一定的人數，而且他們的行程核可之後，還會上網透明給大家看，就那麼簡單的一個透明化的機制，你把它跟反滲透法並列，這個完全就是誤解法條的意思。所以我再說一次，要在程序擋案可以，你們真的如果要在程序擋案，就提出程序的理由，而且拜託把法條看完之後，再來講你們的理由，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員。","我這邊先提出一個，就是剛剛沈委員有提到，是不是我們讓林委員等一下可以發言？雖然我們已經宣告停止登記，但如果大家沒有意見，我們就按照沈委員剛剛的建議，讓林委員發言一次，好嗎？有沒有異議？（無）沒有，那就再麻煩你來登記一下，謝謝。","下一位先請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-27-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","林國成","林楚茵","洪孟楷","沈伯洋","陳玉珍","莊瑞雄","王正旭"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期程序委員會第11次會議紀錄","content":"定本院第11屆第1會期第14次會議議事日程及人民請願案","agenda_id":"1134501_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"152490","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152490","tool":"pyannote","id":"152490-pyannote"},"job_id":"dfza9Rm7J2cwbkQy","queued_at":"2024-05-31 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