{"id":152498,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152498","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0d71af0af8b762a06ad847f93a84224faabc25b9e10ac7e45503e7d5bbc3009275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"09:17:14 - 09:32:50","影片長度":"00:15:36","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）執行現況」，併請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-20"},"duration":936,"end_time":"2024-05-15T09:32:50+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T09:17:14+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":94,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（9時17分）主席，我想請魔法部部長上臺。"],["林委員楚茵：有這個部嗎？"],["徐委員巧芯：那我請MOFA部長上臺。MOFA就是代表外交部，請外交部部長上臺。"],["主席：請外交部部長上臺。"],["吳部長釗燮：徐委員早。"],["徐委員巧芯：早安。部長，我第一個問題想先確認一下我應該要如何稱呼你，因為您在MOFA公開的社群網站上說你是外交部的魔法部吵架王，然後你也用「林北」稱呼你自己，所以請問我今天應該要稱呼你為魔法部長，還是04588？"],["吳部長釗燮：在立法院裡面，我也很認真地跟委員回答，這個彩帶是我在最後一次跟記者……"],["徐委員巧芯：「林北」是你寫的吧？"],["吳部長釗燮：我跟你說明一下，就是記者他們送給我的臨別禮物……"],["徐委員巧芯：你也很開心啊！"],["吳部長釗燮：用一種幽默的方式對待我，我也用一種幽默的方式來回應，對任何人沒有任何不敬的意思。"],["徐委員巧芯：好的，請問你今天都會使用您剛剛所說的鄉下語言來備詢嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：不會，在國會的殿堂，我會用正式的國語來跟大家回應。"],["徐委員巧芯：好的，因為我還沒有打算要多認一個爸爸，所以謝謝你。","部長，我想請問一下，最近你是否有感到傷心呢？"],["吳部長釗燮：我上一次說我傷心的原因是因為我覺得這個外交……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，我問你感不感到傷心而已……"],["吳部長釗燮：我要跟你說……"],["徐委員巧芯：我沒有問你原因。我沒有問你原因。"],["吳部長釗燮：我會跟你說明，就是因為我們在對捷克這個外交受到一些這種不明的這種……"],["徐委員巧芯：我沒有問你原因，我只問你是不是有感到傷心。"],["吳部長釗燮：為那件事情我感到傷心。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為我看到你在節目上面說，對你來說是很傷心的，但是為了希望部長能夠快樂一點，所以我今天有準備了一份小禮物，希望我們在行政、立法上面不要這麼衝突。我想要詢問一下主席，是不是可以讓我的時間稍微暫停，把我的禮物送給外交部長？好，得到允許的話，我今天送的是蜜餞芒果乾。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝。"],["徐委員巧芯：主席也有，各位同仁也有，等一下都會發下去，今天大家都有。","正式進入主題，我國2024年建立促進烏克蘭重建初級項目能量照護夥伴關係備忘錄當中，我們總共援助了……不是我們，是總共援助了烏克蘭多少個項目？部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：一共31個項目。"],["徐委員巧芯：一共31個項目。今年度、2024年呢？不是全部的項目，是2024年。主席，他們一直這樣子討論，時間可能要幫我暫停一下，因為我不知道他們要這樣多久。"],["吳部長釗燮：9個項目。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，9個項目，是不是？9個項目。請問一下，在捷克方面來說，他們總共在這個計畫裡面找了多少家廠商來協助計畫的推動？"],["吳部長釗燮：捷克政府不是找廠商，捷克政府是希望他們的CHTI來協助從事這件計畫的執行。"],["徐委員巧芯：那他們有沒有找廠商來協助？"],["吳部長釗燮：他們當然是在……"],["徐委員巧芯：我問的是有找幾家的廠商來協助？"],["吳部長釗燮：這個部分我沒有辦法確定他們找了幾家廠商，但是……"],["徐委員巧芯：你沒有辦法確定？"],["吳部長釗燮：但是他們的執行就是去找到最合適在烏克蘭境內所需要的這些項目。"],["徐委員巧芯：來，我們看一下下一張投影片。可是你不是在先前接受媒體訪問的時候，你說你對捷克的外交期刊早就有掌握了，有沒有這件事情？你有回答過嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：是，我們有掌握。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，你有掌握，但是我剛剛問的兩個問題都在捷克公開的外交期刊上面已經有解釋了，所以我們可以來看一下這個捷克的外交期刊。在捷克外交部出版的現代經濟外交期刊都把這些內容寫出來了，我現在開書考，可以作答嗎？幾個項目、多少間廠商，可不可以幫我們解釋出來一下？因為你說你有掌握，而且田次長上次也說有掌握嘛。如果他們需要討論的話，主席，是不是可以幫我的時間暫停一下？"],["主席：就委員的問題回答，好不好？"],["吳部長釗燮：我想有關於這些細節的部分……"],["徐委員巧芯：細節？"],["吳部長釗燮：很細的細節部分……"],["徐委員巧芯：那篇文章並不長欸。"],["吳部長釗燮：我知道，但是有關於細節的部分，沒有辦法像一個電腦無限的容量全部容納在我的腦袋裡面。"],["徐委員巧芯：可是上面寫得很清楚啊。"],["吳部長釗燮：有關於這個部分的話，是不是請相關的同仁事後來提供委員這些細節？"],["徐委員巧芯：事後才能提供，現在不能提供，可是田次長跟吳部長你們都公開說你們有掌握這份期刊啊，怎麼今天我在國會殿堂問你的時候，你們會一問三不知呢？"],["吳部長釗燮：有，那個……"],["徐委員巧芯：我現在開書考……"],["吳部長釗燮：我知道……"],["徐委員巧芯：就在這篇、就在這篇文章上面。"],["吳部長釗燮：有6家廠商，但是依照我們相互……"],["徐委員巧芯：6家廠商？"],["吳部長釗燮：6家廠商，依照我們相互的約定就是……"],["徐委員巧芯：那捷克部分呢？"],["吳部長釗燮：廠商的名稱我們不會對外公開。"],["徐委員巧芯：捷克部分呢？幾家廠商？"],["吳部長釗燮：捷克的部分，我們沒有辦法掌握。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有辦法掌握？可是你不是說你掌握期刊了嗎？我們來看下一張投影片，我幫你翻譯好不好？我為了這件事情，很努力的去學了捷克文，大家可以看到，用魔法部的魔杖給大家看一下，其他項目將由臺灣政府提供資金，這個東亞國家將提供總額為1,000萬美元的資金，並且在3年內逐步撥付，而且3年內逐漸使用，其中支援條件百分之三十的供應品來自臺灣公司，今年還有5個項目；再來，約有20家公司參與交付，兩個問題都明顯的在捷克現代經濟外交期刊上面公開寫了。吳釗燮部長、田次長，你們都說你們有掌握這份文件，但是我問你們卻一問三不知，就連歐洲司的司長都不知道。","我們回到剛剛那一頁投影片，就寫在這個地方，所以為什麼要不斷的欺騙國人呢？就像當時，你們說百分之百跟第三方合作是，合作方式都是百分之百公開透明，說我全屬空穴來風、說我造謠，結果我揭露的事根本要保密10年！之後告我洩密，我們個人的官司不在這裡提，我覺得沒有意思，我只想說：不要一再的欺騙國人……"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有意思要欺騙國人，也沒有要欺騙立法院。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們說掌握了現代經濟外交期刊的內容，結果我問你，不管是這個內容，或者是你剛剛的回答都是錯誤的，你們根本就沒有掌握嘛，再來下一張……"],["吳部長釗燮：對方說約有20家公司，可是這個合作計畫才剛剛起步，他們到最後會有多少，我現在沒有辦法掌握……"],["徐委員巧芯：我問你的問題是……約有多少……我問你的是，你有沒有掌握這份期刊上面的說明，你告訴我說有，但是我給你開書考之後，你回答不出來，這就是剛剛所發生的事實，可以不用再跟我硬拗了，下一張投影片。","神奇的捷克大秘寶，我想問一個問題，我們今天支持、協助烏克蘭，我們也支持跟捷克一起共同努力，但為什麼要跳過政府採購法？把金額打給CHTI之後，他們再來跟臺灣的醫療廠商來採購，理由是什麼？"],["吳部長釗燮：烏克蘭境內需要什麼，因為我們人沒有辦法過去，他們跟我們沒有正式關係，所以……"],["徐委員巧芯：他們不能提供清單給我們嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：就是因為我們跟他們之間沒有直接的關係，所以需要透過捷克的CHTI來協助……"],["徐委員巧芯：不能提供清單給我們，然後我們……"],["吳部長釗燮：捷克的CHTI能夠進去到他們的醫療院所，瞭解他們所需要的項目，由他們來採購。"],["徐委員巧芯：那請問這部分的金額300萬美金，立法院要如何監督？"],["吳部長釗燮：有關於這個部分是應立法院在2014年的決議來進行的……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我等一下就會來問了！"],["吳部長釗燮：這個採購是CHTI的採購，不受我們國內採購法的限制，它受到捷克境內相關的法律規範……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我可不可以說300萬到400萬的美金，透過這樣子的邏輯，它之後再也不會出現在中華民國的任何帳上，因為只有CHTI捷克幫他們去購買，那請問什麼樣的廠商會收到通知？什麼時候開始購買？目前應該已經撥付了100萬美金出去，照每年去計算的話，請問這100萬美金用在哪幾間醫材公司購買？買了多少？用了多少？現在外交部的掌握是如何？"],["吳部長釗燮：依照雙方的合約，我們是提供相關的援助、金額的援助，但是關於跟我們購買的部分是依照立法院的決議來進行，至於CHTI的採購是依照他們國內的採購規範……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你不知道啦！你不知道答案啦！"],["吳部長釗燮：以及歐盟的採購規範……"],["徐委員巧芯：我聽你這樣講，很清楚，你不知道那100萬的美金用到哪裡去了啦！"],["吳部長釗燮：我知道跟哪些廠商，我看過這些相關資料、我知道這些相關資料，但是不能夠對外透露。"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道你真的不清楚那100萬用到哪裡去了。"],["吳部長釗燮：他們過一段時間也會提期中報告……"],["徐委員巧芯：要過一段時間，所以你們現在還沒拿到囉？拿到沒有？"],["吳部長釗燮：目前還沒有拿到他們的期中報告。"],["徐委員巧芯：還沒有拿到嘛！這才是事實。","來，下一張投影片，剛才你說了，用這種很奇怪的方式規避政府採購法是為了回應立法院的要求，指定部分需要向臺灣採購，創造臺灣商機。後面這一段沒有問題，跟臺灣廠商採購增加臺灣商機，可是我們今天要問的是，為什麼不是CHTI、捷克、烏克蘭提供清單給我們，我們再透過政府採購法公開、公平的讓優良的臺灣醫材去競爭？你們給我們的回應是立法院要求的。然後，我要請問，回應立法院，是否代表有立法委員向外交部要求？"],["吳部長釗燮：這一次並沒有，但是跟委員說明……"],["徐委員巧芯：這次並沒有，為什麼你要寫在你的新聞稿上？"],["吳部長釗燮：是因為2014年立法院決議之後，我們一直都遵守立法院的決議……"],["徐委員巧芯：立法院2014年的決議我看過，並沒有說要繞過政府採購法，只是說……"],["吳部長釗燮：它也沒有規定要依據政府採購法……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你們亂寫，它只是說，如果今天要採購的話，希望能夠增加臺灣醫材或者是各式各樣採購的比例，讓臺灣的廠商也能夠賺錢。我剛剛問你的問題是，為什麼要跳過政府採購法給CHTI之後再出去……"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有。"],["徐委員巧芯：導致你們現在100萬美金到底出去了多少，買到……你剛剛都承認，你根本到目前都不知道。所以我要問的問題是，如果接受國會議員的建議，沒有不可以，但是請問提出這些建議的人是誰？"],["吳部長釗燮：我再跟委員說明一次，CHTI的採購是依照他們國內的採購法以及歐盟的規範來進行，這是一個非常優良的組織……"],["徐委員巧芯：我問你的是臺灣方面，你不要跟我講CHTI嘛！"],["吳部長釗燮：這是我們所提供的……"],["徐委員巧芯：我問你的是，我們所使用的方式在過去是沒有的，我們把錢拿給CHTI之後，再由CHTI……我問，有誰？他們當時在臺灣招商的時候，有讓所有的醫材廠商都知道這件事能夠公平競爭嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：我並不清楚他們購買的程序……"],["徐委員巧芯：你並不清楚嘛！所以你們沒有讓所有的……"],["吳部長釗燮：因為我們合作的對象是CHTI，他們去烏克蘭境內瞭解他們所需要的……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以就算他沒有跟所有的醫材廠商……讓臺灣公平競爭，你們也不在乎、你們也無所謂，是這樣嗎？我們簽訂合約可以這樣嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：不是這個意思，他們的採購是要依照歐盟以及他們國內自己的採購標準來看。"],["徐委員巧芯：我個人認為完全沒有正當性。最後，目前在臺灣的採購時間，就是臺灣300萬到400萬美金，以113年來說，應該是100萬美金，採購時間何時招標？何時決標？招標程序是否公開透明？有沒有依據政府採購法？得標廠商是誰？幾家投標？得標廠商各品項如何分開採購？得標金額的最有利標是多少？限制性招標是多少？付款方式是否已經付款？付了多少？可不可以會後給我回復？"],["吳部長釗燮：跟委員報告，CHTI他們不受我們國內採購法的規範，他們受到他們國內的……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你們這樣子就跳過了國內的政府採購法……"],["吳部長釗燮：他們受到他們國內的採購規範……"],["徐委員巧芯：你不是說他們之後會告訴你嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：事後再給我們……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我們丟了一筆錢出去，然後到底花到哪裡去了，我們外交部也不管，這樣有正當嗎？所以我問，這些問題能不能會後給我？"],["吳部長釗燮：報告委員，我們跟他們簽的協議是希望他們能夠協助我們，如果我們還要他們國外的機構來遵守我們國內的採購程序……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以以後所有援助烏克蘭的專案都是用同樣的方式來處理嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：我想這樣子可能會受到挫折，我想這對我們的外交會有挫折……"],["徐委員巧芯：我最後一個問題問你，以後所有援助烏克蘭，或是以前所有援助烏克蘭的方式，都是用這次這種方法處理嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：我們儘可能的用這種對外交關係有幫助……"],["徐委員巧芯：是或不是嘛？我的時間很有限……"],["吳部長釗燮：或者是說，用對烏克蘭最有直接幫助的這種方式……"],["徐委員巧芯：不要去講一大堆……"],["吳部長釗燮：要看個案。"],["徐委員巧芯：是不是我們過去以及未來的MOU都是用這種把錢拿給外面，然後讓外面來處理……"],["吳部長釗燮：要看個案。"],["徐委員巧芯：最後回答我一個問題，我現在具體要求回復，能不能夠會後提供給我？"],["吳部長釗燮：要看個案。"],["林委員楚茵：主席，時間……"],["吳部長釗燮：要看個案，如果我們跟其他國家簽約，像是以這種形式來簽約的話，我們國內的採購規範是沒有辦法去規範……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你的意思是不提供？"],["吳部長釗燮：如果是這一次的話，我們沒有辦法提供。"],["徐委員巧芯：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請羅智強委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-20","speakers":["馬文君","邱志偉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","羅智強","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","林憶君","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","黃國昌","陳菁徽","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","李坤城","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","楊瓊瓔","范雲","陳培瑜","王正旭","林月琴","牛煦庭","翁曉玲","葉元之","張雅琳","林思銘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（ 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746.826, \"end\": 746.946, \"score\": 0.624}, {\"word\": \"C\", \"start\": 746.946, \"end\": 746.966, \"score\": 0.45}, {\"word\": \"H\", \"start\": 746.966, \"end\": 747.146, \"score\": 0.76}, {\"word\": \"T\", \"start\": 747.146, \"end\": 747.166, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"I\", \"start\": 747.166, \"end\": 747.186, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 770.038, \"end\": 773.619, \"text\": \"我問他們當時在臺灣招商的時候有讓所有的衣材廠商都知道這件事情能夠公平競爭嗎?我並不清楚他們購買的程序因為我們的合作的對象是CHTI所以就算他們有跟所有的衣材廠商用臺灣公平競爭你們也不在乎你們也無所謂是這樣嗎?我們限定合約可以這樣嗎?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 770.038, \"end\": 770.058, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 770.058, \"end\": 770.078, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 770.078, \"end\": 770.098, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"臺\"}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"招\", \"start\": 770.098, \"end\": 770.138, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"商\", \"start\": 770.138, \"end\": 770.158, \"score\": 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0.889}, {\"word\": \"巧\", \"start\": 921.565, \"end\": 921.745, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"芯\", \"start\": 921.745, \"end\": 921.765, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,189 --> 00:00:04,292\n主席我想請這個魔法部部長上台那我請魔法部長上台MOFAMOFA就是代表外交部請外交部長上台請外交部部長上台\n\n2\n00:00:29,858 --> 00:00:52,867\n徐委員早早安部長我第一個問題想先確認一下我應該要如何稱呼你啊因為您在魔法的這個公開的社群網站上說呢你是這個外交部的魔法部的吵架王然後呢你也用林北稱呼你自己所以請問我今天應該要稱呼你為魔法部長還是04588\n\n3\n00:00:55,787 --> 00:01:22,458\n在立法院裡面我也很認真的跟委員回答那這個彩帶是我在最後一次跟記者我跟你說明一下就是說記者他們送給我的臨別禮物用一種幽默的方式對待我那我也用一種幽默的方式來回應對任何人沒有任何不敬的意思所以大請問你今天都會使用您剛剛所說的鄉下語言來備詢嗎\n\n4\n00:01:24,019 --> 00:01:25,501\n那部長我想請問一下最近你是否有感到傷心呢\n\n5\n00:01:37,243 --> 00:02:03,539\n我上一次說我傷心的原因是因為我們的這個外交我沒有問你原因我沒有問你原因我會跟你說明就是說因為我們在對捷克的這個外交受到一些這種不明的這種我沒有問你原因我只問你說是不是有感到傷心因為那一件事情我感到傷心因為我看到你在節目上面說對你來說是很傷心的\n\n6\n00:02:04,019 --> 00:02:04,039\n謝謝委員\n\n7\n00:02:36,210 --> 00:02:37,331\n徐巧芯\n\n8\n00:02:44,701 --> 00:03:08,275\n好的那正式進入主題我國2024年建立促進烏克蘭重建初級項目能量照護夥伴關係備忘錄當中我們總共援助了不是我們是總共援助了烏克蘭多少個項目部長一共31個項目一共31個項目那今年度2024年\n\n9\n00:03:25,082 --> 00:03:30,486\n主席他們一直這樣子討論時間可能要幫我暫停一下因為我不知道他們要這樣多久\n\n10\n00:03:36,258 --> 00:03:44,967\n請問一下我們在捷克方面來說他們總共在這個計畫裡面找了多少家的廠商來協助計畫的推動\n\n11\n00:03:48,322 --> 00:03:49,002\n我們看一下下一張投影片\n\n12\n00:04:13,968 --> 00:04:36,087\n可是你不是在先前接受媒體訪問的時候你說你對捷克的外交期刊早就有掌握了嗎有沒有這件事情你有回答過嗎我沒有掌握好你有掌握齁但是呢我剛剛問的兩個問題都在捷克公開的外交期刊上面已經有解釋了所以我們可以來看一下這個捷克的外交期刊\n\n13\n00:04:36,787 --> 00:05:01,383\n在捷克外交出版的《現代經濟外交期刊》都把這些內容寫出來了我現在開書考可以作答嗎幾個項目多少間廠商可不可以幫我們解釋出來一下因為你說你有掌握嘛而且田次長上次也說有掌握嘛如果他們需要討論的話主席是不是可以幫我們時間暫停一下\n\n14\n00:05:03,710 --> 00:05:11,581\n有關於這些細節的部分,我知道,但是有關於細節的部分沒有辦法說像那個一個電腦裡面無限的容量全部容納在我的腦袋裡面\n\n15\n00:05:20,733 --> 00:05:46,314\n有關於這個部分的話我是不是請我們相關的同仁事後來提供委員這些時間事後才能提供現在不能提供可是田次長跟吳部長你們都公開說你們有掌握這份期刊啊怎麼今天我在國會對談問你的時候你們會疑問三不知呢我現在開書考就在這篇就在這篇文章上面有六家廠商但是依照我們六家廠商那依照我們相互的這種約定就是\n\n16\n00:05:50,197 --> 00:05:54,220\n我為了這件事情很努力的去學了捷克文來大家可以看到用魔杖給大家看一下魔法部的\n\n17\n00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:29,921\n其他項目將由台灣政府提供資金這個東亞國家將提供總額為一千萬美元的資金並且在三年內逐步撥付而且呢三年內逐漸使用其中支援條件百分之三十的供應品來自台灣公司今年還有五個項目\n\n18\n00:06:31,078 --> 00:06:55,743\n再這一句然後約有20家公司參與交付兩個問題都明顯的在捷克現代經濟外交期刊捷克公開上面就寫了吳釗燮部長田次長你們都說你們有掌握這份文件但是我問出來你們一問三不知就連歐洲司的司長都不知道我們回到剛剛那一頁\n\n19\n00:06:58,174 --> 00:07:27,147\n就寫在這個地方所以為什麼要不斷的欺騙國人呢就像當時你們說百分之百的跟第三方合作是合作方式叫做公開透明的百分之百說我都是全屬空穴來風說我造謠結果呢我揭露了是根本要保命十年以後告我泄密我們個人的官司不在這裡提我覺得沒有意思\n\n20\n00:07:27,887 --> 00:07:34,872\n那呢我只想說不要一再的欺騙國人沒有意思要欺騙國人也沒有要欺騙立法院你們說掌握了現代經濟期刊的內容結果我問你不管是這個內容或者是你剛剛的回答都是錯誤的嘛你們根本就沒有掌握嘛再來下一張對方說約有20家公司可是這個合作計畫才剛剛起步我問你的問題是\n\n21\n00:07:56,067 --> 00:07:56,367\n下一張\n\n22\n00:08:12,105 --> 00:08:32,041\n神奇的捷克大祕寶我想問一個問題我們今天我們支持烏克蘭協助我們也支持跟捷克一起共同努力但為什麼要跳過政府採購法要去把金額打給CHTI之後他再來跟台灣的醫療廠商來採購理由是什麼\n\n23\n00:08:35,783 --> 00:08:58,083\n因為烏克蘭境內他們需要什麼因為我們人沒有辦法過去他們跟我們沒有政治關係所以就是因為我們跟他們沒有直接的關係所以需要透過捷克的CHTI來協助捷克的CHTI能夠進去到那邊去他們的醫療院所瞭解到他們所需要的這些項目那請問這一部分的金額300萬美金立法院要如何監督\n\n24\n00:09:02,927 --> 00:09:03,668\n所以我可不可以說這300萬到400萬的美金透過這樣子的邏輯之後\n\n25\n00:09:22,242 --> 00:09:27,245\n再也不會出現在中華民國的任何帳上因為只有CHTI捷克方他去購買那請問什麼樣的廠商他會收到通知什麼時候開始購買目前應該已經撥放了一百萬的美金出去照每年去計算的話請問這一百萬美金用在購買哪幾間的醫材公司買了多少用了多少\n\n26\n00:09:49,739 --> 00:09:52,244\n我們現在外交部的掌握是如何的?\n\n27\n00:09:52,773 --> 00:09:55,694\n我聽你這樣講很清楚你不知道跟100萬的美金用到哪裡去了我知道這些相關的資料但是不能夠對外透露\n\n28\n00:10:22,563 --> 00:10:22,703\n下一張投影片\n\n29\n00:10:37,933 --> 00:10:58,454\n你們說剛才你說了用這種很奇怪的方式規避政府採購法是為了回應立法院的要求指定部分需要向台灣採購創造台灣商機後面這一段沒有問題跟台灣廠商採購增加台灣商機可是我們今天要問的是\n\n30\n00:10:59,535 --> 00:11:21,434\n為什麼不是CHTI、捷克、烏克蘭提供清單給我們我們再透過政府採購法公開公平的讓優良的台灣醫才去競爭你們給我們的回應是立法院要求的來我要請問立法院回應立法院是否代表有立法委員向要外交部要求\n\n31\n00:11:23,377 --> 00:11:33,906\n這次並沒有但是跟委員說明這次並沒有為什麼你要寫在你的新聞稿上是因為2014年的時候立法院的這個決議之後我們一直都遵守立法院的決議立法院的決議2014我看過他並沒有說要繞過政府採購法\n\n32\n00:11:39,250 --> 00:11:45,812\n他也沒有規定說要依據政府採購法所以你們亂寫他只是說如果今天要採購的話希望能夠增加台灣包含醫材或者是各式各樣的採購的比例讓台灣的廠商也能夠賺錢我剛剛問你的問題是為什麼要跳過政府採購法給CHTI之後再出去導致你們現在到底\n\n33\n00:12:06,138 --> 00:12:06,779\n請問提出這些建議的人是誰?\n\n34\n00:12:21,683 --> 00:12:27,186\n我再跟委員說明一次就是CHTI他們的這個採購是依照他們國內的這個採購法以及相關的歐盟的這個規範來進行那這是一家非常優良的這種我問你的是台灣方面你不要跟我講CHTI嘛我問你的是我們所要我們所使用的這樣子的一個方式在過去是沒有的是我們把錢打給CHTI之後再有CHTI\n\n35\n00:12:50,038 --> 00:12:53,619\n我問他們當時在臺灣招商的時候有讓所有的衣材廠商都知道這件事情能夠公平競爭嗎?我並不清楚他們購買的程序因為我們的合作的對象是CHTI所以就算他們有跟所有的衣材廠商用臺灣公平競爭你們也不在乎你們也無所謂是這樣嗎?我們限定合約可以這樣嗎?\n\n36\n00:13:17,165 --> 00:13:23,528\n我個人認為完全沒有正當性最後最後下一張採購時間我們目前在台灣的採購時間就台灣300到400萬美金像13年來說應該是100萬美金採購時間何時招標何時決標招標程序是否公開透明有沒有依據政府採購法\n\n37\n00:13:45,077 --> 00:13:47,080\n德標廠商是誰?幾家投標?德標廠商品相?德標品相如何分開採購?德標金額最有利標是多少?限制性招標是多少?付款方式是多少?是否已經付款付了多少?可不可以匯耗?\n\n38\n00:14:02,899 --> 00:14:05,661\n給我回覆所以你們這樣子就救過了國內的政府採購法你不是說他們之後會告訴你嗎所以我們丟了一筆錢出去然後到底花到哪裡去了我們外交部也不管這樣有正當嗎所以我問\n\n39\n00:14:23,593 --> 00:14:26,455\n所以以後所有的援助烏克蘭的專案都是用同樣的方式來處理嗎?我最後一個問題問你以後所有的援助烏克蘭或是以前所有援助烏克蘭的方式都是用這一次的這種方法處理嗎?\n\n40\n00:14:53,110 --> 00:15:03,155\n是或不是嗎?你不要我的時間很有限不要去講一大堆是不是我們過去以及未來的MOU都是用這種把錢打給外面然後讓外面來處理的以及最後回答我一個問題我現在的具體要求回覆能不能夠會後提供給我\n\n41\n00:15:20,444 --> 00:15:21,765\n徐巧芯徐巧芯\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n189\t4292\t主席我想請這個魔法部部長上台那我請魔法部長上台MOFAMOFA就是代表外交部請外交部長上台請外交部部長上台\n29858\t52867\t徐委員早早安部長我第一個問題想先確認一下我應該要如何稱呼你啊因為您在魔法的這個公開的社群網站上說呢你是這個外交部的魔法部的吵架王然後呢你也用林北稱呼你自己所以請問我今天應該要稱呼你為魔法部長還是04588\n55787\t82458\t在立法院裡面我也很認真的跟委員回答那這個彩帶是我在最後一次跟記者我跟你說明一下就是說記者他們送給我的臨別禮物用一種幽默的方式對待我那我也用一種幽默的方式來回應對任何人沒有任何不敬的意思所以大請問你今天都會使用您剛剛所說的鄉下語言來備詢嗎\n84019\t85501\t那部長我想請問一下最近你是否有感到傷心呢\n97243\t123539\t我上一次說我傷心的原因是因為我們的這個外交我沒有問你原因我沒有問你原因我會跟你說明就是說因為我們在對捷克的這個外交受到一些這種不明的這種我沒有問你原因我只問你說是不是有感到傷心因為那一件事情我感到傷心因為我看到你在節目上面說對你來說是很傷心的\n124019\t124039\t謝謝委員\n156210\t157331\t徐巧芯\n164701\t188275\t好的那正式進入主題我國2024年建立促進烏克蘭重建初級項目能量照護夥伴關係備忘錄當中我們總共援助了不是我們是總共援助了烏克蘭多少個項目部長一共31個項目一共31個項目那今年度2024年\n205082\t210486\t主席他們一直這樣子討論時間可能要幫我暫停一下因為我不知道他們要這樣多久\n216258\t224967\t請問一下我們在捷克方面來說他們總共在這個計畫裡面找了多少家的廠商來協助計畫的推動\n228322\t229002\t我們看一下下一張投影片\n253968\t276087\t可是你不是在先前接受媒體訪問的時候你說你對捷克的外交期刊早就有掌握了嗎有沒有這件事情你有回答過嗎我沒有掌握好 你有掌握齁但是呢我剛剛問的兩個問題都在捷克公開的外交期刊上面已經有解釋了所以我們可以來看一下這個捷克的外交期刊\n276787\t301383\t在捷克外交出版的《現代經濟外交期刊》都把這些內容寫出來了我現在開書考可以作答嗎幾個項目多少間廠商可不可以幫我們解釋出來一下因為你說你有掌握嘛而且田次長上次也說有掌握嘛如果他們需要討論的話主席是不是可以幫我們時間暫停一下\n303710\t311581\t有關於這些細節的部分,我知道,但是有關於細節的部分沒有辦法說像那個一個電腦裡面無限的容量全部容納在我的腦袋裡面\n320733\t346314\t有關於這個部分的話我是不是請我們相關的同仁事後來提供委員這些時間事後才能提供現在不能提供可是田次長跟吳部長你們都公開說你們有掌握這份期刊啊怎麼今天我在國會對談問你的時候你們會疑問三不知呢我現在開書考就在這篇就在這篇文章上面有六家廠商但是依照我們六家廠商那依照我們相互的這種約定就是\n350197\t354220\t我為了這件事情很努力的去學了捷克文來大家可以看到用魔杖給大家看一下魔法部的\n370600\t389921\t其他項目將由台灣政府提供資金這個東亞國家將提供總額為一千萬美元的資金並且在三年內逐步撥付而且呢三年內逐漸使用其中支援條件百分之三十的供應品來自台灣公司今年還有五個項目\n391078\t415743\t再這一句然後約有20家公司參與交付兩個問題都明顯的在捷克現代經濟外交期刊捷克公開上面就寫了吳釗燮部長田次長你們都說你們有掌握這份文件但是我問出來你們一問三不知就連歐洲司的司長都不知道我們回到剛剛那一頁\n418174\t447147\t就寫在這個地方所以為什麼要不斷的欺騙國人呢就像當時你們說百分之百的跟第三方合作是合作方式叫做公開透明的百分之百說我都是全屬空穴來風說我造謠結果呢我揭露了是根本要保命十年以後告我泄密我們個人的官司不在這裡提我覺得沒有意思\n447887\t454872\t那呢我只想說不要一再的欺騙國人沒有意思要欺騙國人也沒有要欺騙立法院你們說掌握了現代經濟期刊的內容結果我問你不管是這個內容或者是你剛剛的回答都是錯誤的嘛你們根本就沒有掌握嘛再來下一張對方說約有20家公司可是這個合作計畫才剛剛起步我問你的問題是\n476067\t476367\t下一張\n492105\t512041\t神奇的捷克大祕寶我想問一個問題我們今天我們支持烏克蘭協助我們也支持跟捷克一起共同努力但為什麼要跳過政府採購法要去把金額打給CHTI之後他再來跟台灣的醫療廠商來採購理由是什麼\n515783\t538083\t因為烏克蘭境內他們需要什麼因為我們人沒有辦法過去他們跟我們沒有政治關係所以就是因為我們跟他們沒有直接的關係所以需要透過捷克的CHTI來協助捷克的CHTI能夠進去到那邊去他們的醫療院所瞭解到他們所需要的這些項目那請問這一部分的金額300萬美金立法院要如何監督\n542927\t543668\t所以我可不可以說這300萬到400萬的美金透過這樣子的邏輯之後\n562242\t567245\t再也不會出現在中華民國的任何帳上因為只有CHTI捷克方他去購買那請問什麼樣的廠商他會收到通知什麼時候開始購買目前應該已經撥放了一百萬的美金出去照每年去計算的話請問這一百萬美金用在購買哪幾間的醫材公司買了多少用了多少\n589739\t592244\t我們現在外交部的掌握是如何的?\n592773\t595694\t我聽你這樣講很清楚你不知道跟100萬的美金用到哪裡去了我知道這些相關的資料但是不能夠對外透露\n622563\t622703\t下一張投影片\n637933\t658454\t你們說 剛才你說了用這種很奇怪的方式規避政府採購法是為了回應立法院的要求指定部分需要向台灣採購創造台灣商機後面這一段沒有問題跟台灣廠商採購增加台灣商機可是我們今天要問的是\n659535\t681434\t為什麼不是CHTI、捷克、烏克蘭提供清單給我們我們再透過政府採購法公開公平的讓優良的台灣醫才去競爭你們給我們的回應是立法院要求的來我要請問立法院回應立法院是否代表有立法委員向要外交部要求\n683377\t693906\t這次並沒有但是跟委員說明這次並沒有為什麼你要寫在你的新聞稿上是因為2014年的時候立法院的這個決議之後我們一直都遵守立法院的決議立法院的決議2014我看過他並沒有說要繞過政府採購法\n699250\t705812\t他也沒有規定說要依據政府採購法所以你們亂寫他只是說如果今天要採購的話希望能夠增加台灣包含醫材或者是各式各樣的採購的比例讓台灣的廠商也能夠賺錢我剛剛問你的問題是為什麼要跳過政府採購法給CHTI之後再出去導致你們現在到底\n726138\t726779\t請問提出這些建議的人是誰?\n741683\t747186\t我再跟委員說明一次就是CHTI他們的這個採購是依照他們國內的這個採購法以及相關的歐盟的這個規範來進行那這是一家非常優良的這種我問你的是台灣方面你不要跟我講CHTI嘛我問你的是我們所要我們所使用的這樣子的一個方式在過去是沒有的是我們把錢打給CHTI之後再有CHTI\n770038\t773619\t我問他們當時在臺灣招商的時候有讓所有的衣材廠商都知道這件事情能夠公平競爭嗎?我並不清楚他們購買的程序因為我們的合作的對象是CHTI所以就算他們有跟所有的衣材廠商用臺灣公平競爭你們也不在乎你們也無所謂是這樣嗎?我們限定合約可以這樣嗎?\n797165\t803528\t我個人認為完全沒有正當性最後最後下一張採購時間我們目前在台灣的採購時間就台灣300到400萬美金像13年來說應該是100萬美金採購時間何時招標何時決標招標程序是否公開透明有沒有依據政府採購法\n825077\t827080\t德標廠商是誰?幾家投標?德標廠商品相?德標品相如何分開採購?德標金額最有利標是多少?限制性招標是多少?付款方式是多少?是否已經付款付了多少?可不可以匯耗?\n842899\t845661\t給我回覆所以你們這樣子就救過了國內的政府採購法你不是說他們之後會告訴你嗎所以我們丟了一筆錢出去然後到底花到哪裡去了我們外交部也不管這樣有正當嗎所以我問\n863593\t866455\t所以以後所有的援助烏克蘭的專案都是用同樣的方式來處理嗎?我最後一個問題問你以後所有的援助烏克蘭或是以前所有援助烏克蘭的方式都是用這一次的這種方法處理嗎?\n893110\t903155\t是或不是嗎?你不要我的時間很有限不要去講一大堆是不是我們過去以及未來的MOU都是用這種把錢打給外面然後讓外面來處理的以及最後回答我一個問題我現在的具體要求回覆能不能夠會後提供給我\n920444\t921765\t徐巧芯徐巧芯\n","txt":"主席我想請這個魔法部部長上台那我請魔法部長上台MOFAMOFA就是代表外交部請外交部長上台請外交部部長上台\n徐委員早早安部長我第一個問題想先確認一下我應該要如何稱呼你啊因為您在魔法的這個公開的社群網站上說呢你是這個外交部的魔法部的吵架王然後呢你也用林北稱呼你自己所以請問我今天應該要稱呼你為魔法部長還是04588\n在立法院裡面我也很認真的跟委員回答那這個彩帶是我在最後一次跟記者我跟你說明一下就是說記者他們送給我的臨別禮物用一種幽默的方式對待我那我也用一種幽默的方式來回應對任何人沒有任何不敬的意思所以大請問你今天都會使用您剛剛所說的鄉下語言來備詢嗎\n那部長我想請問一下最近你是否有感到傷心呢\n我上一次說我傷心的原因是因為我們的這個外交我沒有問你原因我沒有問你原因我會跟你說明就是說因為我們在對捷克的這個外交受到一些這種不明的這種我沒有問你原因我只問你說是不是有感到傷心因為那一件事情我感到傷心因為我看到你在節目上面說對你來說是很傷心的\n謝謝委員\n徐巧芯\n好的那正式進入主題我國2024年建立促進烏克蘭重建初級項目能量照護夥伴關係備忘錄當中我們總共援助了不是我們是總共援助了烏克蘭多少個項目部長一共31個項目一共31個項目那今年度2024年\n主席他們一直這樣子討論時間可能要幫我暫停一下因為我不知道他們要這樣多久\n請問一下我們在捷克方面來說他們總共在這個計畫裡面找了多少家的廠商來協助計畫的推動\n我們看一下下一張投影片\n可是你不是在先前接受媒體訪問的時候你說你對捷克的外交期刊早就有掌握了嗎有沒有這件事情你有回答過嗎我沒有掌握好 你有掌握齁但是呢我剛剛問的兩個問題都在捷克公開的外交期刊上面已經有解釋了所以我們可以來看一下這個捷克的外交期刊\n在捷克外交出版的《現代經濟外交期刊》都把這些內容寫出來了我現在開書考可以作答嗎幾個項目多少間廠商可不可以幫我們解釋出來一下因為你說你有掌握嘛而且田次長上次也說有掌握嘛如果他們需要討論的話主席是不是可以幫我們時間暫停一下\n有關於這些細節的部分,我知道,但是有關於細節的部分沒有辦法說像那個一個電腦裡面無限的容量全部容納在我的腦袋裡面\n有關於這個部分的話我是不是請我們相關的同仁事後來提供委員這些時間事後才能提供現在不能提供可是田次長跟吳部長你們都公開說你們有掌握這份期刊啊怎麼今天我在國會對談問你的時候你們會疑問三不知呢我現在開書考就在這篇就在這篇文章上面有六家廠商但是依照我們六家廠商那依照我們相互的這種約定就是\n我為了這件事情很努力的去學了捷克文來大家可以看到用魔杖給大家看一下魔法部的\n其他項目將由台灣政府提供資金這個東亞國家將提供總額為一千萬美元的資金並且在三年內逐步撥付而且呢三年內逐漸使用其中支援條件百分之三十的供應品來自台灣公司今年還有五個項目\n再這一句然後約有20家公司參與交付兩個問題都明顯的在捷克現代經濟外交期刊捷克公開上面就寫了吳釗燮部長田次長你們都說你們有掌握這份文件但是我問出來你們一問三不知就連歐洲司的司長都不知道我們回到剛剛那一頁\n就寫在這個地方所以為什麼要不斷的欺騙國人呢就像當時你們說百分之百的跟第三方合作是合作方式叫做公開透明的百分之百說我都是全屬空穴來風說我造謠結果呢我揭露了是根本要保命十年以後告我泄密我們個人的官司不在這裡提我覺得沒有意思\n那呢我只想說不要一再的欺騙國人沒有意思要欺騙國人也沒有要欺騙立法院你們說掌握了現代經濟期刊的內容結果我問你不管是這個內容或者是你剛剛的回答都是錯誤的嘛你們根本就沒有掌握嘛再來下一張對方說約有20家公司可是這個合作計畫才剛剛起步我問你的問題是\n下一張\n神奇的捷克大祕寶我想問一個問題我們今天我們支持烏克蘭協助我們也支持跟捷克一起共同努力但為什麼要跳過政府採購法要去把金額打給CHTI之後他再來跟台灣的醫療廠商來採購理由是什麼\n因為烏克蘭境內他們需要什麼因為我們人沒有辦法過去他們跟我們沒有政治關係所以就是因為我們跟他們沒有直接的關係所以需要透過捷克的CHTI來協助捷克的CHTI能夠進去到那邊去他們的醫療院所瞭解到他們所需要的這些項目那請問這一部分的金額300萬美金立法院要如何監督\n所以我可不可以說這300萬到400萬的美金透過這樣子的邏輯之後\n再也不會出現在中華民國的任何帳上因為只有CHTI捷克方他去購買那請問什麼樣的廠商他會收到通知什麼時候開始購買目前應該已經撥放了一百萬的美金出去照每年去計算的話請問這一百萬美金用在購買哪幾間的醫材公司買了多少用了多少\n我們現在外交部的掌握是如何的?\n我聽你這樣講很清楚你不知道跟100萬的美金用到哪裡去了我知道這些相關的資料但是不能夠對外透露\n下一張投影片\n你們說 剛才你說了用這種很奇怪的方式規避政府採購法是為了回應立法院的要求指定部分需要向台灣採購創造台灣商機後面這一段沒有問題跟台灣廠商採購增加台灣商機可是我們今天要問的是\n為什麼不是CHTI、捷克、烏克蘭提供清單給我們我們再透過政府採購法公開公平的讓優良的台灣醫才去競爭你們給我們的回應是立法院要求的來我要請問立法院回應立法院是否代表有立法委員向要外交部要求\n這次並沒有但是跟委員說明這次並沒有為什麼你要寫在你的新聞稿上是因為2014年的時候立法院的這個決議之後我們一直都遵守立法院的決議立法院的決議2014我看過他並沒有說要繞過政府採購法\n他也沒有規定說要依據政府採購法所以你們亂寫他只是說如果今天要採購的話希望能夠增加台灣包含醫材或者是各式各樣的採購的比例讓台灣的廠商也能夠賺錢我剛剛問你的問題是為什麼要跳過政府採購法給CHTI之後再出去導致你們現在到底\n請問提出這些建議的人是誰?\n我再跟委員說明一次就是CHTI他們的這個採購是依照他們國內的這個採購法以及相關的歐盟的這個規範來進行那這是一家非常優良的這種我問你的是台灣方面你不要跟我講CHTI嘛我問你的是我們所要我們所使用的這樣子的一個方式在過去是沒有的是我們把錢打給CHTI之後再有CHTI\n我問他們當時在臺灣招商的時候有讓所有的衣材廠商都知道這件事情能夠公平競爭嗎?我並不清楚他們購買的程序因為我們的合作的對象是CHTI所以就算他們有跟所有的衣材廠商用臺灣公平競爭你們也不在乎你們也無所謂是這樣嗎?我們限定合約可以這樣嗎?\n我個人認為完全沒有正當性最後最後下一張採購時間我們目前在台灣的採購時間就台灣300到400萬美金像13年來說應該是100萬美金採購時間何時招標何時決標招標程序是否公開透明有沒有依據政府採購法\n德標廠商是誰?幾家投標?德標廠商品相?德標品相如何分開採購?德標金額最有利標是多少?限制性招標是多少?付款方式是多少?是否已經付款付了多少?可不可以匯耗?\n給我回覆所以你們這樣子就救過了國內的政府採購法你不是說他們之後會告訴你嗎所以我們丟了一筆錢出去然後到底花到哪裡去了我們外交部也不管這樣有正當嗎所以我問\n所以以後所有的援助烏克蘭的專案都是用同樣的方式來處理嗎?我最後一個問題問你以後所有的援助烏克蘭或是以前所有援助烏克蘭的方式都是用這一次的這種方法處理嗎?\n是或不是嗎?你不要我的時間很有限不要去講一大堆是不是我們過去以及未來的MOU都是用這種把錢打給外面然後讓外面來處理的以及最後回答我一個問題我現在的具體要求回覆能不能夠會後提供給我\n徐巧芯徐巧芯\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.189 --> 00:04.292\n主席我想請這個魔法部部長上台那我請魔法部長上台MOFAMOFA就是代表外交部請外交部長上台請外交部部長上台\n\n00:29.858 --> 00:52.867\n徐委員早早安部長我第一個問題想先確認一下我應該要如何稱呼你啊因為您在魔法的這個公開的社群網站上說呢你是這個外交部的魔法部的吵架王然後呢你也用林北稱呼你自己所以請問我今天應該要稱呼你為魔法部長還是04588\n\n00:55.787 --> 01:22.458\n在立法院裡面我也很認真的跟委員回答那這個彩帶是我在最後一次跟記者我跟你說明一下就是說記者他們送給我的臨別禮物用一種幽默的方式對待我那我也用一種幽默的方式來回應對任何人沒有任何不敬的意思所以大請問你今天都會使用您剛剛所說的鄉下語言來備詢嗎\n\n01:24.019 --> 01:25.501\n那部長我想請問一下最近你是否有感到傷心呢\n\n01:37.243 --> 02:03.539\n我上一次說我傷心的原因是因為我們的這個外交我沒有問你原因我沒有問你原因我會跟你說明就是說因為我們在對捷克的這個外交受到一些這種不明的這種我沒有問你原因我只問你說是不是有感到傷心因為那一件事情我感到傷心因為我看到你在節目上面說對你來說是很傷心的\n\n02:04.019 --> 02:04.039\n謝謝委員\n\n02:36.210 --> 02:37.331\n徐巧芯\n\n02:44.701 --> 03:08.275\n好的那正式進入主題我國2024年建立促進烏克蘭重建初級項目能量照護夥伴關係備忘錄當中我們總共援助了不是我們是總共援助了烏克蘭多少個項目部長一共31個項目一共31個項目那今年度2024年\n\n03:25.082 --> 03:30.486\n主席他們一直這樣子討論時間可能要幫我暫停一下因為我不知道他們要這樣多久\n\n03:36.258 --> 03:44.967\n請問一下我們在捷克方面來說他們總共在這個計畫裡面找了多少家的廠商來協助計畫的推動\n\n03:48.322 --> 03:49.002\n我們看一下下一張投影片\n\n04:13.968 --> 04:36.087\n可是你不是在先前接受媒體訪問的時候你說你對捷克的外交期刊早就有掌握了嗎有沒有這件事情你有回答過嗎我沒有掌握好你有掌握齁但是呢我剛剛問的兩個問題都在捷克公開的外交期刊上面已經有解釋了所以我們可以來看一下這個捷克的外交期刊\n\n04:36.787 --> 05:01.383\n在捷克外交出版的《現代經濟外交期刊》都把這些內容寫出來了我現在開書考可以作答嗎幾個項目多少間廠商可不可以幫我們解釋出來一下因為你說你有掌握嘛而且田次長上次也說有掌握嘛如果他們需要討論的話主席是不是可以幫我們時間暫停一下\n\n05:03.710 --> 05:11.581\n有關於這些細節的部分,我知道,但是有關於細節的部分沒有辦法說像那個一個電腦裡面無限的容量全部容納在我的腦袋裡面\n\n05:20.733 --> 05:46.314\n有關於這個部分的話我是不是請我們相關的同仁事後來提供委員這些時間事後才能提供現在不能提供可是田次長跟吳部長你們都公開說你們有掌握這份期刊啊怎麼今天我在國會對談問你的時候你們會疑問三不知呢我現在開書考就在這篇就在這篇文章上面有六家廠商但是依照我們六家廠商那依照我們相互的這種約定就是\n\n05:50.197 --> 05:54.220\n我為了這件事情很努力的去學了捷克文來大家可以看到用魔杖給大家看一下魔法部的\n\n06:10.600 --> 06:29.921\n其他項目將由台灣政府提供資金這個東亞國家將提供總額為一千萬美元的資金並且在三年內逐步撥付而且呢三年內逐漸使用其中支援條件百分之三十的供應品來自台灣公司今年還有五個項目\n\n06:31.078 --> 06:55.743\n再這一句然後約有20家公司參與交付兩個問題都明顯的在捷克現代經濟外交期刊捷克公開上面就寫了吳釗燮部長田次長你們都說你們有掌握這份文件但是我問出來你們一問三不知就連歐洲司的司長都不知道我們回到剛剛那一頁\n\n06:58.174 --> 07:27.147\n就寫在這個地方所以為什麼要不斷的欺騙國人呢就像當時你們說百分之百的跟第三方合作是合作方式叫做公開透明的百分之百說我都是全屬空穴來風說我造謠結果呢我揭露了是根本要保命十年以後告我泄密我們個人的官司不在這裡提我覺得沒有意思\n\n07:27.887 --> 07:34.872\n那呢我只想說不要一再的欺騙國人沒有意思要欺騙國人也沒有要欺騙立法院你們說掌握了現代經濟期刊的內容結果我問你不管是這個內容或者是你剛剛的回答都是錯誤的嘛你們根本就沒有掌握嘛再來下一張對方說約有20家公司可是這個合作計畫才剛剛起步我問你的問題是\n\n07:56.067 --> 07:56.367\n下一張\n\n08:12.105 --> 08:32.041\n神奇的捷克大祕寶我想問一個問題我們今天我們支持烏克蘭協助我們也支持跟捷克一起共同努力但為什麼要跳過政府採購法要去把金額打給CHTI之後他再來跟台灣的醫療廠商來採購理由是什麼\n\n08:35.783 --> 08:58.083\n因為烏克蘭境內他們需要什麼因為我們人沒有辦法過去他們跟我們沒有政治關係所以就是因為我們跟他們沒有直接的關係所以需要透過捷克的CHTI來協助捷克的CHTI能夠進去到那邊去他們的醫療院所瞭解到他們所需要的這些項目那請問這一部分的金額300萬美金立法院要如何監督\n\n09:02.927 --> 09:03.668\n所以我可不可以說這300萬到400萬的美金透過這樣子的邏輯之後\n\n09:22.242 --> 09:27.245\n再也不會出現在中華民國的任何帳上因為只有CHTI捷克方他去購買那請問什麼樣的廠商他會收到通知什麼時候開始購買目前應該已經撥放了一百萬的美金出去照每年去計算的話請問這一百萬美金用在購買哪幾間的醫材公司買了多少用了多少\n\n09:49.739 --> 09:52.244\n我們現在外交部的掌握是如何的?\n\n09:52.773 --> 09:55.694\n我聽你這樣講很清楚你不知道跟100萬的美金用到哪裡去了我知道這些相關的資料但是不能夠對外透露\n\n10:22.563 --> 10:22.703\n下一張投影片\n\n10:37.933 --> 10:58.454\n你們說剛才你說了用這種很奇怪的方式規避政府採購法是為了回應立法院的要求指定部分需要向台灣採購創造台灣商機後面這一段沒有問題跟台灣廠商採購增加台灣商機可是我們今天要問的是\n\n10:59.535 --> 11:21.434\n為什麼不是CHTI、捷克、烏克蘭提供清單給我們我們再透過政府採購法公開公平的讓優良的台灣醫才去競爭你們給我們的回應是立法院要求的來我要請問立法院回應立法院是否代表有立法委員向要外交部要求\n\n11:23.377 --> 11:33.906\n這次並沒有但是跟委員說明這次並沒有為什麼你要寫在你的新聞稿上是因為2014年的時候立法院的這個決議之後我們一直都遵守立法院的決議立法院的決議2014我看過他並沒有說要繞過政府採購法\n\n11:39.250 --> 11:45.812\n他也沒有規定說要依據政府採購法所以你們亂寫他只是說如果今天要採購的話希望能夠增加台灣包含醫材或者是各式各樣的採購的比例讓台灣的廠商也能夠賺錢我剛剛問你的問題是為什麼要跳過政府採購法給CHTI之後再出去導致你們現在到底\n\n12:06.138 --> 12:06.779\n請問提出這些建議的人是誰?\n\n12:21.683 --> 12:27.186\n我再跟委員說明一次就是CHTI他們的這個採購是依照他們國內的這個採購法以及相關的歐盟的這個規範來進行那這是一家非常優良的這種我問你的是台灣方面你不要跟我講CHTI嘛我問你的是我們所要我們所使用的這樣子的一個方式在過去是沒有的是我們把錢打給CHTI之後再有CHTI\n\n12:50.038 --> 12:53.619\n我問他們當時在臺灣招商的時候有讓所有的衣材廠商都知道這件事情能夠公平競爭嗎?我並不清楚他們購買的程序因為我們的合作的對象是CHTI所以就算他們有跟所有的衣材廠商用臺灣公平競爭你們也不在乎你們也無所謂是這樣嗎?我們限定合約可以這樣嗎?\n\n13:17.165 --> 13:23.528\n我個人認為完全沒有正當性最後最後下一張採購時間我們目前在台灣的採購時間就台灣300到400萬美金像13年來說應該是100萬美金採購時間何時招標何時決標招標程序是否公開透明有沒有依據政府採購法\n\n13:45.077 --> 13:47.080\n德標廠商是誰?幾家投標?德標廠商品相?德標品相如何分開採購?德標金額最有利標是多少?限制性招標是多少?付款方式是多少?是否已經付款付了多少?可不可以匯耗?\n\n14:02.899 --> 14:05.661\n給我回覆所以你們這樣子就救過了國內的政府採購法你不是說他們之後會告訴你嗎所以我們丟了一筆錢出去然後到底花到哪裡去了我們外交部也不管這樣有正當嗎所以我問\n\n14:23.593 --> 14:26.455\n所以以後所有的援助烏克蘭的專案都是用同樣的方式來處理嗎?我最後一個問題問你以後所有的援助烏克蘭或是以前所有援助烏克蘭的方式都是用這一次的這種方法處理嗎?\n\n14:53.110 --> 15:03.155\n是或不是嗎?你不要我的時間很有限不要去講一大堆是不是我們過去以及未來的MOU都是用這種把錢打給外面然後讓外面來處理的以及最後回答我一個問題我現在的具體要求回覆能不能夠會後提供給我\n\n15:20.444 --> 15:21.765\n徐巧芯徐巧芯\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.189,"end":4.292,"text":"主席我想請這個魔法部部長上台那我請魔法部長上台MOFAMOFA就是代表外交部請外交部長上台請外交部部長上台"},{"start":29.858,"end":52.867,"text":"徐委員早早安部長我第一個問題想先確認一下我應該要如何稱呼你啊因為您在魔法的這個公開的社群網站上說呢你是這個外交部的魔法部的吵架王然後呢你也用林北稱呼你自己所以請問我今天應該要稱呼你為魔法部長還是04588"},{"start":55.787,"end":82.458,"text":"在立法院裡面我也很認真的跟委員回答那這個彩帶是我在最後一次跟記者我跟你說明一下就是說記者他們送給我的臨別禮物用一種幽默的方式對待我那我也用一種幽默的方式來回應對任何人沒有任何不敬的意思所以大請問你今天都會使用您剛剛所說的鄉下語言來備詢嗎"},{"start":84.019,"end":85.501,"text":"那部長我想請問一下最近你是否有感到傷心呢"},{"start":97.243,"end":123.539,"text":"我上一次說我傷心的原因是因為我們的這個外交我沒有問你原因我沒有問你原因我會跟你說明就是說因為我們在對捷克的這個外交受到一些這種不明的這種我沒有問你原因我只問你說是不是有感到傷心因為那一件事情我感到傷心因為我看到你在節目上面說對你來說是很傷心的"},{"start":124.019,"end":124.039,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":156.21,"end":157.331,"text":"徐巧芯"},{"start":164.701,"end":188.275,"text":"好的那正式進入主題我國2024年建立促進烏克蘭重建初級項目能量照護夥伴關係備忘錄當中我們總共援助了不是我們是總共援助了烏克蘭多少個項目部長一共31個項目一共31個項目那今年度2024年"},{"start":205.082,"end":210.486,"text":"主席他們一直這樣子討論時間可能要幫我暫停一下因為我不知道他們要這樣多久"},{"start":216.258,"end":224.967,"text":"請問一下我們在捷克方面來說他們總共在這個計畫裡面找了多少家的廠商來協助計畫的推動"},{"start":228.322,"end":229.002,"text":"我們看一下下一張投影片"},{"start":253.968,"end":276.087,"text":"可是你不是在先前接受媒體訪問的時候你說你對捷克的外交期刊早就有掌握了嗎有沒有這件事情你有回答過嗎我沒有掌握好 你有掌握齁但是呢我剛剛問的兩個問題都在捷克公開的外交期刊上面已經有解釋了所以我們可以來看一下這個捷克的外交期刊"},{"start":276.787,"end":301.383,"text":"在捷克外交出版的《現代經濟外交期刊》都把這些內容寫出來了我現在開書考可以作答嗎幾個項目多少間廠商可不可以幫我們解釋出來一下因為你說你有掌握嘛而且田次長上次也說有掌握嘛如果他們需要討論的話主席是不是可以幫我們時間暫停一下"},{"start":303.71,"end":311.581,"text":"有關於這些細節的部分,我知道,但是有關於細節的部分沒有辦法說像那個一個電腦裡面無限的容量全部容納在我的腦袋裡面"},{"start":320.733,"end":346.314,"text":"有關於這個部分的話我是不是請我們相關的同仁事後來提供委員這些時間事後才能提供現在不能提供可是田次長跟吳部長你們都公開說你們有掌握這份期刊啊怎麼今天我在國會對談問你的時候你們會疑問三不知呢我現在開書考就在這篇就在這篇文章上面有六家廠商但是依照我們六家廠商那依照我們相互的這種約定就是"},{"start":350.197,"end":354.22,"text":"我為了這件事情很努力的去學了捷克文來大家可以看到用魔杖給大家看一下魔法部的"},{"start":370.6,"end":389.921,"text":"其他項目將由台灣政府提供資金這個東亞國家將提供總額為一千萬美元的資金並且在三年內逐步撥付而且呢三年內逐漸使用其中支援條件百分之三十的供應品來自台灣公司今年還有五個項目"},{"start":391.078,"end":415.743,"text":"再這一句然後約有20家公司參與交付兩個問題都明顯的在捷克現代經濟外交期刊捷克公開上面就寫了吳釗燮部長田次長你們都說你們有掌握這份文件但是我問出來你們一問三不知就連歐洲司的司長都不知道我們回到剛剛那一頁"},{"start":418.174,"end":447.147,"text":"就寫在這個地方所以為什麼要不斷的欺騙國人呢就像當時你們說百分之百的跟第三方合作是合作方式叫做公開透明的百分之百說我都是全屬空穴來風說我造謠結果呢我揭露了是根本要保命十年以後告我泄密我們個人的官司不在這裡提我覺得沒有意思"},{"start":447.887,"end":454.872,"text":"那呢我只想說不要一再的欺騙國人沒有意思要欺騙國人也沒有要欺騙立法院你們說掌握了現代經濟期刊的內容結果我問你不管是這個內容或者是你剛剛的回答都是錯誤的嘛你們根本就沒有掌握嘛再來下一張對方說約有20家公司可是這個合作計畫才剛剛起步我問你的問題是"},{"start":476.067,"end":476.367,"text":"下一張"},{"start":492.105,"end":512.041,"text":"神奇的捷克大祕寶我想問一個問題我們今天我們支持烏克蘭協助我們也支持跟捷克一起共同努力但為什麼要跳過政府採購法要去把金額打給CHTI之後他再來跟台灣的醫療廠商來採購理由是什麼"},{"start":515.783,"end":538.083,"text":"因為烏克蘭境內他們需要什麼因為我們人沒有辦法過去他們跟我們沒有政治關係所以就是因為我們跟他們沒有直接的關係所以需要透過捷克的CHTI來協助捷克的CHTI能夠進去到那邊去他們的醫療院所瞭解到他們所需要的這些項目那請問這一部分的金額300萬美金立法院要如何監督"},{"start":542.927,"end":543.668,"text":"所以我可不可以說這300萬到400萬的美金透過這樣子的邏輯之後"},{"start":562.242,"end":567.245,"text":"再也不會出現在中華民國的任何帳上因為只有CHTI捷克方他去購買那請問什麼樣的廠商他會收到通知什麼時候開始購買目前應該已經撥放了一百萬的美金出去照每年去計算的話請問這一百萬美金用在購買哪幾間的醫材公司買了多少用了多少"},{"start":589.739,"end":592.244,"text":"我們現在外交部的掌握是如何的?"},{"start":592.773,"end":595.694,"text":"我聽你這樣講很清楚你不知道跟100萬的美金用到哪裡去了我知道這些相關的資料但是不能夠對外透露"},{"start":622.563,"end":622.703,"text":"下一張投影片"},{"start":637.933,"end":658.454,"text":"你們說 剛才你說了用這種很奇怪的方式規避政府採購法是為了回應立法院的要求指定部分需要向台灣採購創造台灣商機後面這一段沒有問題跟台灣廠商採購增加台灣商機可是我們今天要問的是"},{"start":659.535,"end":681.434,"text":"為什麼不是CHTI、捷克、烏克蘭提供清單給我們我們再透過政府採購法公開公平的讓優良的台灣醫才去競爭你們給我們的回應是立法院要求的來我要請問立法院回應立法院是否代表有立法委員向要外交部要求"},{"start":683.377,"end":693.906,"text":"這次並沒有但是跟委員說明這次並沒有為什麼你要寫在你的新聞稿上是因為2014年的時候立法院的這個決議之後我們一直都遵守立法院的決議立法院的決議2014我看過他並沒有說要繞過政府採購法"},{"start":699.25,"end":705.812,"text":"他也沒有規定說要依據政府採購法所以你們亂寫他只是說如果今天要採購的話希望能夠增加台灣包含醫材或者是各式各樣的採購的比例讓台灣的廠商也能夠賺錢我剛剛問你的問題是為什麼要跳過政府採購法給CHTI之後再出去導致你們現在到底"},{"start":726.138,"end":726.779,"text":"請問提出這些建議的人是誰?"},{"start":741.683,"end":747.186,"text":"我再跟委員說明一次就是CHTI他們的這個採購是依照他們國內的這個採購法以及相關的歐盟的這個規範來進行那這是一家非常優良的這種我問你的是台灣方面你不要跟我講CHTI嘛我問你的是我們所要我們所使用的這樣子的一個方式在過去是沒有的是我們把錢打給CHTI之後再有CHTI"},{"start":770.038,"end":773.619,"text":"我問他們當時在臺灣招商的時候有讓所有的衣材廠商都知道這件事情能夠公平競爭嗎?我並不清楚他們購買的程序因為我們的合作的對象是CHTI所以就算他們有跟所有的衣材廠商用臺灣公平競爭你們也不在乎你們也無所謂是這樣嗎?我們限定合約可以這樣嗎?"},{"start":797.165,"end":803.528,"text":"我個人認為完全沒有正當性最後最後下一張採購時間我們目前在台灣的採購時間就台灣300到400萬美金像13年來說應該是100萬美金採購時間何時招標何時決標招標程序是否公開透明有沒有依據政府採購法"},{"start":825.077,"end":827.08,"text":"德標廠商是誰?幾家投標?德標廠商品相?德標品相如何分開採購?德標金額最有利標是多少?限制性招標是多少?付款方式是多少?是否已經付款付了多少?可不可以匯耗?"},{"start":842.899,"end":845.661,"text":"給我回覆所以你們這樣子就救過了國內的政府採購法你不是說他們之後會告訴你嗎所以我們丟了一筆錢出去然後到底花到哪裡去了我們外交部也不管這樣有正當嗎所以我問"},{"start":863.593,"end":866.455,"text":"所以以後所有的援助烏克蘭的專案都是用同樣的方式來處理嗎?我最後一個問題問你以後所有的援助烏克蘭或是以前所有援助烏克蘭的方式都是用這一次的這種方法處理嗎?"},{"start":893.11,"end":903.155,"text":"是或不是嗎?你不要我的時間很有限不要去講一大堆是不是我們過去以及未來的MOU都是用這種把錢打給外面然後讓外面來處理的以及最後回答我一個問題我現在的具體要求回覆能不能夠會後提供給我"},{"start":920.444,"end":921.765,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯"}]}}}}