{"id":152507,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152507","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c093168fc6f21c2191ad847f93a84224faabc25b9e10ac7e45bad02b2ffd216a645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"09:52:48 - 10:07:07","影片長度":"00:14:19","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）執行現況」，併請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-20"},"duration":859,"end_time":"2024-05-15T10:07:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T09:52:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":334,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（9時52分）謝謝主席，麻煩部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：委員好。"],["王委員定宇：部長早。辛苦！今天是你在我們立法院以外交部長身分的最後一次備詢。本席在這邊好像也陪伴你好幾年的時間了。"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["王委員定宇：我們今天做一些review，還有討論一些重要的事情。因為外交是延續的，不管哪個政黨執政，不管誰當部長，外交累積的資本跟外交的風險是會往下傳的，全民要一起承受。"],["吳部長釗燮：是，沒錯。"],["王委員定宇：所以我第一個先請教這個問題，坦白說，我那天聽到你說有兩個邦交國具長期隱憂，我個人比較會是往前說一步，事實上面對中共大撒幣的攻勢，大概所有的邦交國，甚至於我們既存的參與國際組織都有長期隱憂。但是你特別會提出兩個，通常我們在觀測這個狀況，在於該國的內部政治局勢是不是發生變化，或者中國有重大的資源集中攻勢在哪個外交戰場，才會點出這兩個嘛！你即將卸任外交部長，目前我們具備長期隱憂的這兩國，你認為它的風險控管，還有下一步我們該怎麼處理？"],["吳部長釗燮：非常謝謝委員，我會提出說是長期的隱憂，就是說在中長期……"],["王委員定宇：你的long term是多長？"],["吳部長釗燮：這個沒有辦法確定，但是在短期間之內，1年、2年、3年之內，那個都沒有問題，甚至其中的一個，我看未來的10年、15年、20年也都沒有問題，但會有長期的隱憂是因為看到那個趨勢，的確對我們來講必須要很關注。譬如有一個友邦內部陷入非常紛亂的狀況，當然我們就必須寄予關心，這種情勢會不會導致一些我們不想看到的局面，當然我們必須要很密切觀察。另外一個友邦，是因為中國利用各式各樣的方式滲透到這個友邦裡面，雖然這個友邦跟我們的關係非常非常好，但是因為中國的這種滲透力道不斷加強，我們也不斷在關心當中。"],["王委員定宇：我說軍事上是看到敵人已經有灘頭堡，補給線也建立了，你就應該要開始擔心嘛！"],["吳部長釗燮：是，我想這次520的時候可以給大家一個很好的觀察，就是所有的友邦對我們都是非常支持，所以不是那個國家的元首就是總理、外交部長……"],["王委員定宇：幾乎都是代表性的人物過來。"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["王委員定宇：我點名問一個，我們在委員會這兩、三屆在關心的，對於教廷國，目前外交部的評估是什麼？"],["吳部長釗燮：有關於教廷的部分，因為他們隨時隨地都希望能夠跟中國重啟教務的協商，或者renew他們教務的協議，但是他們每次跟中國進行洽談的時候，也都會告訴我們，就是說這些洽談都是涉及到教務，跟政治外交沒有關係。"],["王委員定宇：因為前幾年香港的前主教提出警告嘛！那幾年確實看到教廷國想要照顧中國教區的信徒，無可厚非。"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["王委員定宇：當時擔心臺灣在歐洲唯一的，就是梵蒂岡教廷國會有影響。所以就外交部的評估，目前教廷國並不在那兩國之內？"],["吳部長釗燮：那個沒有問題，因為最主要就是，他們跟中國在接觸是希望能夠有一些教務的協議，以造福在中國的天主教徒。"],["王委員定宇：中國所有的宗教人員都要屬於共產黨，都要官派的。"],["吳部長釗燮：對。"],["王委員定宇：所以一旦教廷國在那邊，任命權做折衷的時候，就是危機的開始，曾經他要承認他們的愛國教會相關任命……"],["吳部長釗燮：對。"],["王委員定宇：但是後來連他們要的也都沒有任命就停下來了。這個是外交部分的review。","第二個是有關我們內部，為什麼提告？我要問的倒不是大家曾經討論過的這些問題，我先問在外交上的理由，因為你是外交部。當然機密文件、秘密文件循法律管道送到立法院，我們可以要求你私下跟我們報告，我們也可以開機密會議，而且所有的這些資料是你們送到立法院的，不是被挖出來的。"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以對立法院來講，它不是機密，它已經揭露給我們看了。"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["王委員定宇：你們在研究之後為什麼會提告，有沒有外交上的理由？"],["吳部長釗燮：有，外交上當然是有理由，因為我們跟其他國家會有這些協議，就是因為有高度的互信、知道可以彼此來互相幫忙。可是很多的部分不適合公開，尤其沒有經過雙方的同意是不適合公開的，如果加以公開的話，這個可能就涉及到刑法第一百三十二條的相關規定，在外交上面可能也會讓我們受到一些挫折，尤其是……"],["王委員定宇：我們的機密大概就是根據國家機密保護法核定的，這是一種，軍事機密是一種。"],["吳部長釗燮：對。"],["王委員定宇：第三種就是一般機密嘛？"],["吳部長釗燮：公務機密。"],["王委員定宇：公務機密嘛！外交上的理由，大概是基於跟合作夥伴之間的互信。"],["吳部長釗燮：對，沒有錯，尤其這些重要的合作夥伴或者理念相近的國家，有很多合作項目的確不適合公開。"],["王委員定宇：那有人說3月份捷克期刊就已經報導了，我們看內容……"],["吳部長釗燮：他們報導的是一部分，但沒有把這個文件拿出來給大家看，所以這個部分仍然是密……"],["王委員定宇：就是雙方的附錄各方面，何況報導跟具官方性的國會議員或者官員去確認，這是兩件事情。報導的話，其實雙方可以禮貌地否認，但是一旦官方去確認，有時候轉折的空間都沒有了，所以外交上的理由大概是基於彼此的互信。那我們的合作方有沒有因為這樣子而產生一些變化？"],["吳部長釗燮：目前他們跟我們的合作態度還是非常明確，基本上我們雙方也簽有MOU，雙方都依照這個MOU來走。捷克的這一個機構，就是捷克生物科技院的院長，他曾經在上個禮拜對外闡述他們的心情，就是說在他們跟臺灣很誠心地合作來協助烏克蘭的這件事情上面，似乎受到了很多汙衊，說他們是圖利特定的政治人物等等。"],["王委員定宇：說他們是醫材公司。"],["吳部長釗燮：他們表達說非常地遺憾，而且他們感到非常地傷心。對於這種好朋友，我們這樣子去形容真的是很不好。"],["王委員定宇：我也不說好朋友，就是說在合作的夥伴上，有時候我們在某一些國家要建立，事實上中東歐親中的國會議員還相當多。"],["吳部長釗燮：不少。"],["王委員定宇：所以這個要破壞是蠻快的。昨天有媒體大亨趙少康說要弄死你們外交部核密的那個公務員，你們有沒有看到那個新聞？"],["吳部長釗燮：如果把我們外交部這些機密的文件全部都攤開來的話，臺灣大概也不用搞外交了。"],["王委員定宇：他現在是回頭說那個核密的。如果這個密等不夠機密，我都弄死你。他講的是用「弄死」這兩個字，我聽到嚇了一大跳！那位同仁，或者你身為部長有什麼感受？"],["吳部長釗燮：我覺得這個很不好，外交是我們國家的事情，外交部是某一個政黨的事情，而且外交是有延續性的，在蔡英文總統之前是馬英九總統，他的外交是由蔡英文總統承接；蔡英文總統的外交是由賴清德總統承接，所以這個有延續性。如果把我們的外交……"],["王委員定宇：基本上我們對外簽訂MOU，彼此要求保密的情形下，你們按照法律就會送到我們立法院核備嘛！"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以這是一個公務員按照規範而常態性在做的事情，政治的攻防，不要去恐嚇公務員。"],["吳部長釗燮：對。"],["王委員定宇：這個也不應該。"],["吳部長釗燮：對。"],["王委員定宇：外交人員或者任何部會人員都是國家的公務人員，他不屬於任何一個政黨，怎麼會不順意就要弄死他！這個……"],["吳部長釗燮：我在這邊也跟委員用一個例子比喻，譬如我們的道路上面會有這些交通號誌，這就是一個規範，大家遵守這個規範的話就會減少車禍等等的狀況；如果堅持要把這些號誌拿掉、把這些交通規範拿掉的話，我想臺北的交通會陷入大亂。"],["王委員定宇：要拿掉有它的流程，不能在沒有拿掉之前，就說這支紅燈對我無效，那就撞在一起了。","接下來我要請教一個比較嚴肅的話題，中華民國臺灣外交部等於是國家的發言人，中華民國臺灣外交部對目前南海局勢的看法，我要請你正式地表達看法。"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["王委員定宇：你離開前，本席在外交及國防委員會要請你就南海局勢發表看法，也就是現在南海有軍演，中共在那邊一下子去騷擾菲律賓的經濟水域，一下子跟越南有衝突，在那邊用他們的海警船、用水砲攻擊菲律賓的海巡船，造成人員的傷害。美日菲高峰會也針對這個局勢發表看法，還啟動軍演，目前美軍有相當多的軍力跟盟友放在那個位置，當然中共也宣布它在那邊要啟動相關軍演。我們國家的太平島在那裡，它是我們國家的領域，近幾年大概也沒有人挑戰我們實質管理、擁有這塊我們的島。我現在要請教，站在比較宏觀的、以中華民國外交部長的身分，我們對南海的態度是什麼？請發表。"],["吳部長釗燮：非常謝謝委員，其實我們早在2016年7月南海仲裁之後，政府就已經透過國安會的會議結論對外發表我們的立場，立場到目前為止一個字都沒有改變，這個立場主要的內容就是，我們對於南海諸島的主權以及相關海域的權利是毋庸置疑的……"],["王委員定宇：它是我們國家的。"],["吳部長釗燮：這個是屬於我們國家的，但是我們也支持自由航行、自由飛越的權利，對於南海的爭議，我們必須要尋和平的方式來加以解決，尤其是南海的資源應該是要以大家互利共享的方式來進行開發，我們的立場到目前為止是一個字都沒有改變。"],["王委員定宇：這個立場是一貫延續的？"],["吳部長釗燮：一貫延續的。"],["王委員定宇：不管什麼政黨執政，我們對南海的看法就是這一個，就是主權是我們的，支持國際海域、空域的自由航行權、和平解決紛爭以及大家一起共榮，大概是這個方向，我覺得我們把這個立場再講清楚。"],["吳部長釗燮：對，你剛剛講的問題裡面還有第二個部分，就是涉及到最近中國跟菲律賓的爭議，或者是說中國在對菲律賓施壓的這種方式，我們也發言過很多次，就是對於中國挑起南海地區的爭議，或者是在他對外的聲張是無限擴大的狀況，我們是不予認同的。第三個，從整個全球戰略的角度來看，的確南海地區的緊張情勢是不斷的升高，這個緊張情勢不斷升高的理由，就是中國他的assertion、他的主權的主張是不斷的擴張，而且他對於在區域的這些國家或者是說經過區域的這種自由航行的行為，都用一種不安全、不專業的方式，造成區域的緊張。"],["王委員定宇：謝謝部長，其實我們對南海的立場堅定，我們國家的利益要顧著。","在最後30秒，我必須對部長講一些話，確實因為中共的外交攻勢，我們的正式邦交國失去了一些，那是令人遺憾的，我們也該檢討，也是外交上我們可以詮釋為挫敗，縱使中共用大撒幣，我們失去了一些邦交國，縱使有些邦交國見利忘義，但是我們還是要去面對，因為正式的邦交國也是重要的外交事務。但是這幾年來，吳部長還有所有外交部的同仁，你們讓臺灣被國際看見，你們讓臺灣的重要性被各國重視，所以不管是G7、AUKUS、歐盟、NATO、Quad，或是主流國家的二加二，甚至於上次美日菲的三加三，臺灣永遠是前三名被關心希望和平穩定安全的國家。坦白講，你去看7年前，這是不存在的，我還沒有去算國際媒體期刊的報導，我現在講的是正式國家的會議，像G7這些。美國是我們最重要的外交關係，在臺美的部分，不管是BTA，或者是安全合作軍售的常態化，以及友臺的法案、歐盟，所以我們外交還有很多困難的地方，在外交的戰場上是真實面對真刀真槍的戰場，外交人員辛苦了！作為部長，你跟所有外交部的同仁，大家在外交的第一線捍衛我們國家的尊嚴跟主權，而這幾年我們跟主流世界、主流民主國家、理念相近國家關係的提升有目共睹，所以不好的我們檢討，好的給予肯定，這幾年你辛苦了，謝謝。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員，非常感謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-20","speakers":["馬文君","邱志偉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","羅智強","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","林憶君","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","黃國昌","陳菁徽","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","李坤城","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","楊瓊瓔","范雲","陳培瑜","王正旭","林月琴","牛煦庭","翁曉玲","葉元之","張雅琳","林思銘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（ 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{\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,113 --> 00:00:01,818\n謝謝主席,麻煩部長請部長\n\n2\n00:00:09,059 --> 00:00:37,998\n委員好部長老大辛苦那今天是你在我們立法院以外交部長身份最後一次備詢是那本席在這邊好像跟你也陪伴你好幾年的時間是我們今天做一些review還有一些重要事情來討論一下因為外交是延續的不管哪個政黨執政不管誰當部長外交累積的資本跟外交的風險\n\n3\n00:00:39,299 --> 00:01:05,452\n他是會往下傳的是全民要一起承受的第一個先請教這個問題坦白說我那天聽到你說有兩個邦交國有長期隱憂我個人會比較往前說一步是要面對中共大撒幣的攻勢大概所有的邦交國甚至於我們既存的參與國際組織都有長期隱憂但是你特別會提出兩個\n\n4\n00:01:07,293 --> 00:01:32,611\n通常我們在monitor在觀測這個狀況是該國的內部政治局勢是不是發生變化或者中國有重大的資源集中攻勢在哪個外交戰場才會點出這兩個以你即將卸任外交部長目前我們具備長期隱憂的這兩國你認為他的風險控管還有下一步我們該怎麼處理\n\n5\n00:01:34,162 --> 00:01:40,273\n非常謝謝委員吼那我會提出說是長期的隱憂就是說在中段期你溝通多長?這個這個\n\n6\n00:01:42,648 --> 00:02:04,725\n沒有辦法去確定,但是在短期間之內,一年兩年三年之內,那個都沒有問題,甚至是其中的一個是我看未來的10年15年20年也都沒有問題,但是會有長期的隱憂是因為看到那個趨勢,的確是對我們來講,我們必須要很關注,比如說有一個友邦他們的內部是陷入非常紛亂的這個狀況,\n\n7\n00:02:06,727 --> 00:02:07,448\n有的軍事上是看到敵人已經有灘頭堡了\n\n8\n00:02:36,561 --> 00:02:37,542\n我點名問一個我們在委員會這兩三屆在關心的\n\n9\n00:03:01,209 --> 00:03:02,650\n在前幾年香港的前主教提出警告\n\n10\n00:03:28,010 --> 00:03:56,320\n那幾年確實看到教廷國想要照顧中國教區的信徒無可厚非當時擔心台灣在歐洲唯一的梵蒂岡教廷國會有影響所以就外交部的評估目前教廷國並不在那兩國之內那個沒有問題因為最主要就是說他們跟中國在接觸是希望能夠有一些教務的協議來造福在中國的那個建築教徒中國所有宗教人員都要屬於共產黨的\n\n11\n00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:23,475\n對都要官派的對所以一旦教廷國在那邊任命權做折衷的時候就是危機開始曾經他要承認他們的愛國教會相關的任命對但後來連他們要的也都沒有被任命就停下來了好這個是外交部分的review第二個是有關我們在內部為什麼提告我要問的倒不是大家曾經討論過的這些問題我先問在外交上的理由因為你是外交部\n\n12\n00:04:24,515 --> 00:04:45,629\n當然機密文件秘密文件循法律管道送到立法院我們可以要求你私下跟我們報告我們也可以開機密會議而且這個所謂的資料是你們送到立法院的不是被挖出來的所以機密對立法院來講它不是機密它已經揭露給我們看了在研究之後為什麼會提告外交上有沒有外交的理由\n\n13\n00:04:46,311 --> 00:05:13,344\n有,外交上當然是有理由因為我們會跟其他國家會有這些協議就是因為有高度的這個互信知道說可以彼此來互相幫忙那可是這些很多的這個部分是不適合公開尤其是沒有經過雙方的這個同意是不適合公開的那如果說加以公開的話這個可能就涉及到那個刑法第132條的相關的規定在外交上面可能也會讓我們受到一些\n\n14\n00:05:13,404 --> 00:05:15,105\n尤其是這些重要的這些合作夥伴或者是說理念相近國家有很多的這些合作的項目的確是不適合公開\n\n15\n00:05:38,536 --> 00:06:05,879\n三月份捷克期間就已經報導了嘛像我們看的內容啦他們報導的是一部分但是沒有把這個文件拿出來給大家看所以這個部分還是秘密就是雙方的賦錄各方面何況報導跟官方去就有具有官方的國會議員或者是官員去確認這是兩件事情報導的話其實雙方可以禮貌的否認但是一旦官方去確認有時候轉折的空間都沒有了所以\n\n16\n00:06:06,519 --> 00:06:29,767\n外交上的理由大概是基於彼此的互信那我們的合作方有沒有因為這樣子產生一些變化目前他們跟我們的合作的態度還是非常的明確基本上我們雙方也是簽有這個MOU那雙方都依照這個MOU來走這個捷克的這個機構就是捷克生物科技院的這個院長\n\n17\n00:06:30,467 --> 00:06:54,693\n他曾經在上個禮拜對外來闡述他們的這個心情就是說在他們跟台灣很誠心的合作來協助烏克蘭這件事情上面似乎受到了很多的這些誣衊說他們是圖利特定的政治引入等等的他們表達說這個非常的遺憾而且他們感到非常的傷心那對於這種好朋友我們去這樣子的形容真的是很不好\n\n18\n00:06:55,333 --> 00:06:58,554\n如果把我們外交部的這些機密的這些文件全部都攤開來的話我們台灣大概也不用搞外交了\n\n19\n00:07:22,659 --> 00:07:30,121\n他現在是回頭講說那個核密的如果這個密不夠密我都弄死你他講的是弄死這兩個字我聽到嚇了一大跳\n\n20\n00:07:32,062 --> 00:07:56,615\n那位同仁或者你身為部長有什麼感受我覺得這個很不好啦就是說外交是我們國家的事情外交不是某一個政黨的事情而且外交這個是有延續性的在那個蔡英文總統之前是馬英九總統他的這個外交是由蔡英文總統來承接蔡英文總統的這個外交是由賴清德總統來承接所以這個是有延續性的\n\n21\n00:07:57,435 --> 00:08:13,099\n我們對外簽訂MOU彼此要求保密的情形下你們會按照法律就送到我們立法院合備嘛所以這是一個公務員按照規範常態性在做的事情政治的攻防不要去恐嚇公務員這個不應該啦\n\n22\n00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:44,725\n外交人員或者任何部會人員都是國家的公務人員他不屬於任何一個政黨怎麼會不順利就要弄死他我在這邊也跟委員用一個例子來比比如說我們的道路上面會有這些交通的這個號誌那這個就是一個規範大家遵守這個規範的話就會減少這種車禍等等的這些狀況那如果說堅持要把這些號誌拿掉要把這些交通規範拿掉的話那我想我們台北的這個交通會陷入大亂\n\n23\n00:08:45,305 --> 00:08:49,488\n中華民國台灣外交部對目前南海局勢的看法我要請你正式的表達看法這是你離開前本席在外交委員會要請你就南海局勢發表看法\n\n24\n00:09:16,045 --> 00:09:37,170\n中共在那邊一下子去騷擾這個菲律賓的經濟水域一下子跟越南有衝突然後呢在那一邊呢他們用他們的海警船用水砲去攻擊菲律賓的海巡船造成人員傷害那美日菲的高峰會也針對這個局勢發表看法還啟動軍演\n\n25\n00:09:40,891 --> 00:10:04,809\n然後目前美軍有相當多的軍力跟盟友放在那個位置那當然中共也宣布他那邊要啟動相關的軍演那我們國家的太平島在那裡他是我們國家的領域近幾年大概也沒有人挑戰我們實質管理擁有這塊我們的島我現在要請教的是站在比較宏觀的以中華民國外交部長\n\n26\n00:10:06,104 --> 00:10:09,669\n非常謝謝委員其實我們早在2016年的7月南海仲裁之後政府已經透過國安會的會議結論\n\n27\n00:10:21,224 --> 00:10:36,739\n已經對外發表我們的這個立場,立場到目前為止一個字都沒有改變那這個立場的主要的內容就是說我們對於南海諸島的這個主權以及相關海域的這個權利這個是毋庸置疑的\n\n28\n00:10:37,199 --> 00:11:03,179\n這是屬於我們國家的但是我們也支持自由航行自由飛躍的這種權利那對於南海的這個爭議我們必須要去尋和平的這個方式來加以解決那尤其是這個南海的資源應該是要大家互利共享的這種方式來進行開發那我們的立場到目前為止是一個字都沒有改變這個立場是一貫延續的不管\n\n29\n00:11:05,401 --> 00:11:06,422\n你剛剛講的這個問題裡面還有第二個部分就是涉及到最近那個中國跟菲律賓的這些爭議\n\n30\n00:11:28,102 --> 00:11:46,253\n中國在對菲律賓施壓的這種方式那我們也發言過很多次就是說對於中國挑起南海地區的這個爭議或者是說在他的這種對外的這種聲張是無限的擴大的這個狀況我們是不予認同的那第三個是整個全球戰略\n\n31\n00:11:47,073 --> 00:11:47,413\n謝謝部長其實我們對南海的立場堅定\n\n32\n00:12:16,744 --> 00:12:34,589\n那我們國家的利益要顧著在最後30秒我必須對部長講一些話確實因為中共的外交公事我們的正式邦交國失去了一些那是令人遺憾\n\n33\n00:12:35,669 --> 00:12:52,735\n我們也該檢討也是外交上我們可以詮釋為錯敗縱使中共用大撒幣我們失去了一些邦交國縱使有些邦交國建立妄議但是我們還是要去面對因為正式的邦交國也是重要的外交事務但是這幾年來\n\n34\n00:12:54,916 --> 00:13:05,171\n吳部長還有我們所有外交部的同仁你們讓台灣被國際看見你們讓台灣的重要性被各國重視所以不管在\n\n35\n00:13:06,311 --> 00:13:34,077\n對G7、AUKUS、歐盟、NATO、QUAD主流國家的2加2甚至於上次美日非的3加3台灣永遠是在前三名被關心希望和平、穩定、安全的國家這個在坦白講你去看7年前這是不存在的我還沒有去算國際媒體期間的報導我現在講的是正式國家的會議G7這些\n\n36\n00:13:37,961 --> 00:13:54,582\n美國是我們最重要的外交關係在台美的部分不管是BTA或者是安全合作軍售的常態化以及友台的法案歐盟所以我們外交還有很多困難的地方在外交的戰場上是真實的面對\n\n37\n00:13:56,101 --> 00:13:56,121\n謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1113\t1818\t謝謝主席,麻煩部長請部長\n9059\t37998\t委員好部長 老大辛苦那今天是你在我們立法院以外交部長身份最後一次備詢是那本席在這邊好像跟你也陪伴你好幾年的時間是我們今天做一些review還有一些重要事情來討論一下因為外交是延續的不管哪個政黨執政不管誰當部長外交累積的資本跟外交的風險\n39299\t65452\t他是會往下傳的是全民要一起承受的第一個先請教這個問題坦白說我那天聽到你說有兩個邦交國有長期隱憂我個人會比較往前說一步是要面對中共大撒幣的攻勢大概所有的邦交國甚至於我們既存的參與國際組織都有長期隱憂但是你特別會提出兩個\n67293\t92611\t通常我們在monitor在觀測這個狀況是該國的內部政治局勢是不是發生變化或者中國有重大的資源集中攻勢在哪個外交戰場才會點出這兩個以你即將卸任外交部長目前我們具備長期隱憂的這兩國你認為他的風險控管還有下一步我們該怎麼處理\n94162\t100273\t非常謝謝委員吼那我會提出說是長期的隱憂就是說在中段期你溝通多長?這個這個\n102648\t124725\t沒有辦法去確定,但是在短期間之內,一年兩年三年之內,那個都沒有問題,甚至是其中的一個是我看未來的10年15年20年也都沒有問題,但是會有長期的隱憂是因為看到那個趨勢,的確是對我們來講,我們必須要很關注,比如說有一個友邦他們的內部是陷入非常紛亂的這個狀況,\n126727\t127448\t有的軍事上是看到敵人已經有灘頭堡了\n156561\t157542\t我點名問一個我們在委員會這兩三屆在關心的\n181209\t182650\t在前幾年香港的前主教提出警告\n208010\t236320\t那幾年確實看到教廷國想要照顧中國教區的信徒無可厚非當時擔心台灣在歐洲唯一的梵蒂岡教廷國會有影響所以就外交部的評估目前教廷國並不在那兩國之內那個沒有問題因為最主要就是說他們跟中國在接觸是希望能夠有一些教務的協議來造福在中國的那個建築教徒中國所有宗教人員都要屬於共產黨的\n237120\t263475\t對都要官派的對所以一旦教廷國在那邊任命權做折衷的時候就是危機開始曾經他要承認他們的愛國教會相關的任命對但後來連他們要的也都沒有被任命就停下來了好這個是外交部分的review第二個是有關我們在內部為什麼提告我要問的倒不是大家曾經討論過的這些問題我先問在外交上的理由因為你是外交部\n264515\t285629\t當然機密文件秘密文件循法律管道送到立法院我們可以要求你私下跟我們報告我們也可以開機密會議而且這個所謂的資料是你們送到立法院的不是被挖出來的所以機密對立法院來講它不是機密它已經揭露給我們看了在研究之後為什麼會提告外交上有沒有外交的理由\n286311\t313344\t有,外交上當然是有理由因為我們會跟其他國家會有這些協議就是因為有高度的這個互信知道說可以彼此來互相幫忙那可是這些很多的這個部分是不適合公開尤其是沒有經過雙方的這個同意是不適合公開的那如果說加以公開的話這個可能就涉及到那個刑法第132條的相關的規定在外交上面可能也會讓我們受到一些\n313404\t315105\t尤其是這些重要的這些合作夥伴或者是說理念相近國家有很多的這些合作的項目的確是不適合公開\n338536\t365879\t三月份捷克期間就已經報導了嘛像我們看的內容啦他們報導的是一部分但是沒有把這個文件拿出來給大家看所以這個部分還是秘密就是雙方的賦錄各方面何況報導跟官方去就有具有官方的國會議員或者是官員去確認這是兩件事情報導的話其實雙方可以禮貌的否認但是一旦官方去確認有時候轉折的空間都沒有了所以\n366519\t389767\t外交上的理由大概是基於彼此的互信那我們的合作方有沒有因為這樣子產生一些變化目前他們跟我們的合作的態度還是非常的明確基本上我們雙方也是簽有這個MOU那雙方都依照這個MOU來走這個捷克的這個機構就是捷克生物科技院的這個院長\n390467\t414693\t他曾經在上個禮拜對外來闡述他們的這個心情就是說在他們跟台灣很誠心的合作來協助烏克蘭這件事情上面似乎受到了很多的這些誣衊說他們是圖利特定的政治引入等等的他們表達說這個非常的遺憾而且他們感到非常的傷心那對於這種好朋友我們去這樣子的形容真的是很不好\n415333\t418554\t如果把我們外交部的這些機密的這些文件全部都攤開來的話我們台灣大概也不用搞外交了\n442659\t450121\t他現在是回頭講說那個核密的如果這個密不夠密我都弄死你他講的是弄死這兩個字我聽到嚇了一大跳\n452062\t476615\t那位同仁或者你身為部長有什麼感受我覺得這個很不好啦就是說外交是我們國家的事情外交不是某一個政黨的事情而且外交這個是有延續性的在那個蔡英文總統之前是馬英九總統他的這個外交是由蔡英文總統來承接蔡英文總統的這個外交是由賴清德總統來承接所以這個是有延續性的\n477435\t493099\t我們對外簽訂MOU彼此要求保密的情形下你們會按照法律就送到我們立法院合備嘛所以這是一個公務員按照規範常態性在做的事情政治的攻防不要去恐嚇公務員這個不應該啦\n495760\t524725\t外交人員或者任何部會人員都是國家的公務人員他不屬於任何一個政黨怎麼會不順利就要弄死他我在這邊也跟委員用一個例子來比比如說我們的道路上面會有這些交通的這個號誌那這個就是一個規範大家遵守這個規範的話就會減少這種車禍等等的這些狀況那如果說堅持要把這些號誌拿掉要把這些交通規範拿掉的話那我想我們台北的這個交通會陷入大亂\n525305\t529488\t中華民國台灣外交部對目前南海局勢的看法我要請你正式的表達看法這是你離開前本席在外交委員會要請你就南海局勢發表看法\n556045\t577170\t中共在那邊一下子去騷擾這個菲律賓的經濟水域一下子跟越南有衝突然後呢在那一邊呢他們用他們的海警船用水砲去攻擊菲律賓的海巡船造成人員傷害那美日菲的高峰會也針對這個局勢發表看法還啟動軍演\n580891\t604809\t然後目前美軍有相當多的軍力跟盟友放在那個位置那當然中共也宣布他那邊要啟動相關的軍演那我們國家的太平島在那裡他是我們國家的領域近幾年大概也沒有人挑戰我們實質管理擁有這塊我們的島我現在要請教的是站在比較宏觀的以中華民國外交部長\n606104\t609669\t非常謝謝委員其實我們早在2016年的7月南海仲裁之後政府已經透過國安會的會議結論\n621224\t636739\t已經對外發表我們的這個立場,立場到目前為止一個字都沒有改變那這個立場的主要的內容就是說我們對於南海諸島的這個主權以及相關海域的這個權利這個是毋庸置疑的\n637199\t663179\t這是屬於我們國家的但是我們也支持自由航行自由飛躍的這種權利那對於南海的這個爭議我們必須要去尋和平的這個方式來加以解決那尤其是這個南海的資源應該是要大家互利共享的這種方式來進行開發那我們的立場到目前為止是一個字都沒有改變這個立場是一貫延續的不管\n665401\t666422\t你剛剛講的這個問題裡面還有第二個部分就是涉及到最近那個中國跟菲律賓的這些爭議\n688102\t706253\t中國在對菲律賓施壓的這種方式那我們也發言過很多次就是說對於中國挑起南海地區的這個爭議或者是說在他的這種對外的這種聲張是無限的擴大的這個狀況我們是不予認同的那第三個是整個全球戰略\n707073\t707413\t謝謝部長其實我們對南海的立場堅定\n736744\t754589\t那我們國家的利益要顧著在最後30秒我必須對部長講一些話確實因為中共的外交公事我們的正式邦交國失去了一些那是令人遺憾\n755669\t772735\t我們也該檢討也是外交上我們可以詮釋為錯敗縱使中共用大撒幣我們失去了一些邦交國縱使有些邦交國建立妄議但是我們還是要去面對因為正式的邦交國也是重要的外交事務但是這幾年來\n774916\t785171\t吳部長還有我們所有外交部的同仁你們讓台灣被國際看見你們讓台灣的重要性被各國重視所以不管在\n786311\t814077\t對G7、AUKUS、歐盟、NATO、QUAD主流國家的2加2甚至於上次美日非的3加3台灣永遠是在前三名被關心希望和平、穩定、安全的國家這個在坦白講你去看7年前這是不存在的我還沒有去算國際媒體期間的報導我現在講的是正式國家的會議G7這些\n817961\t834582\t美國是我們最重要的外交關係在台美的部分不管是BTA或者是安全合作軍售的常態化以及友台的法案歐盟所以我們外交還有很多困難的地方在外交的戰場上是真實的面對\n836101\t836121\t謝謝委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席,麻煩部長請部長\n委員好部長 老大辛苦那今天是你在我們立法院以外交部長身份最後一次備詢是那本席在這邊好像跟你也陪伴你好幾年的時間是我們今天做一些review還有一些重要事情來討論一下因為外交是延續的不管哪個政黨執政不管誰當部長外交累積的資本跟外交的風險\n他是會往下傳的是全民要一起承受的第一個先請教這個問題坦白說我那天聽到你說有兩個邦交國有長期隱憂我個人會比較往前說一步是要面對中共大撒幣的攻勢大概所有的邦交國甚至於我們既存的參與國際組織都有長期隱憂但是你特別會提出兩個\n通常我們在monitor在觀測這個狀況是該國的內部政治局勢是不是發生變化或者中國有重大的資源集中攻勢在哪個外交戰場才會點出這兩個以你即將卸任外交部長目前我們具備長期隱憂的這兩國你認為他的風險控管還有下一步我們該怎麼處理\n非常謝謝委員吼那我會提出說是長期的隱憂就是說在中段期你溝通多長?這個這個\n沒有辦法去確定,但是在短期間之內,一年兩年三年之內,那個都沒有問題,甚至是其中的一個是我看未來的10年15年20年也都沒有問題,但是會有長期的隱憂是因為看到那個趨勢,的確是對我們來講,我們必須要很關注,比如說有一個友邦他們的內部是陷入非常紛亂的這個狀況,\n有的軍事上是看到敵人已經有灘頭堡了\n我點名問一個我們在委員會這兩三屆在關心的\n在前幾年香港的前主教提出警告\n那幾年確實看到教廷國想要照顧中國教區的信徒無可厚非當時擔心台灣在歐洲唯一的梵蒂岡教廷國會有影響所以就外交部的評估目前教廷國並不在那兩國之內那個沒有問題因為最主要就是說他們跟中國在接觸是希望能夠有一些教務的協議來造福在中國的那個建築教徒中國所有宗教人員都要屬於共產黨的\n對都要官派的對所以一旦教廷國在那邊任命權做折衷的時候就是危機開始曾經他要承認他們的愛國教會相關的任命對但後來連他們要的也都沒有被任命就停下來了好這個是外交部分的review第二個是有關我們在內部為什麼提告我要問的倒不是大家曾經討論過的這些問題我先問在外交上的理由因為你是外交部\n當然機密文件秘密文件循法律管道送到立法院我們可以要求你私下跟我們報告我們也可以開機密會議而且這個所謂的資料是你們送到立法院的不是被挖出來的所以機密對立法院來講它不是機密它已經揭露給我們看了在研究之後為什麼會提告外交上有沒有外交的理由\n有,外交上當然是有理由因為我們會跟其他國家會有這些協議就是因為有高度的這個互信知道說可以彼此來互相幫忙那可是這些很多的這個部分是不適合公開尤其是沒有經過雙方的這個同意是不適合公開的那如果說加以公開的話這個可能就涉及到那個刑法第132條的相關的規定在外交上面可能也會讓我們受到一些\n尤其是這些重要的這些合作夥伴或者是說理念相近國家有很多的這些合作的項目的確是不適合公開\n三月份捷克期間就已經報導了嘛像我們看的內容啦他們報導的是一部分但是沒有把這個文件拿出來給大家看所以這個部分還是秘密就是雙方的賦錄各方面何況報導跟官方去就有具有官方的國會議員或者是官員去確認這是兩件事情報導的話其實雙方可以禮貌的否認但是一旦官方去確認有時候轉折的空間都沒有了所以\n外交上的理由大概是基於彼此的互信那我們的合作方有沒有因為這樣子產生一些變化目前他們跟我們的合作的態度還是非常的明確基本上我們雙方也是簽有這個MOU那雙方都依照這個MOU來走這個捷克的這個機構就是捷克生物科技院的這個院長\n他曾經在上個禮拜對外來闡述他們的這個心情就是說在他們跟台灣很誠心的合作來協助烏克蘭這件事情上面似乎受到了很多的這些誣衊說他們是圖利特定的政治引入等等的他們表達說這個非常的遺憾而且他們感到非常的傷心那對於這種好朋友我們去這樣子的形容真的是很不好\n如果把我們外交部的這些機密的這些文件全部都攤開來的話我們台灣大概也不用搞外交了\n他現在是回頭講說那個核密的如果這個密不夠密我都弄死你他講的是弄死這兩個字我聽到嚇了一大跳\n那位同仁或者你身為部長有什麼感受我覺得這個很不好啦就是說外交是我們國家的事情外交不是某一個政黨的事情而且外交這個是有延續性的在那個蔡英文總統之前是馬英九總統他的這個外交是由蔡英文總統來承接蔡英文總統的這個外交是由賴清德總統來承接所以這個是有延續性的\n我們對外簽訂MOU彼此要求保密的情形下你們會按照法律就送到我們立法院合備嘛所以這是一個公務員按照規範常態性在做的事情政治的攻防不要去恐嚇公務員這個不應該啦\n外交人員或者任何部會人員都是國家的公務人員他不屬於任何一個政黨怎麼會不順利就要弄死他我在這邊也跟委員用一個例子來比比如說我們的道路上面會有這些交通的這個號誌那這個就是一個規範大家遵守這個規範的話就會減少這種車禍等等的這些狀況那如果說堅持要把這些號誌拿掉要把這些交通規範拿掉的話那我想我們台北的這個交通會陷入大亂\n中華民國台灣外交部對目前南海局勢的看法我要請你正式的表達看法這是你離開前本席在外交委員會要請你就南海局勢發表看法\n中共在那邊一下子去騷擾這個菲律賓的經濟水域一下子跟越南有衝突然後呢在那一邊呢他們用他們的海警船用水砲去攻擊菲律賓的海巡船造成人員傷害那美日菲的高峰會也針對這個局勢發表看法還啟動軍演\n然後目前美軍有相當多的軍力跟盟友放在那個位置那當然中共也宣布他那邊要啟動相關的軍演那我們國家的太平島在那裡他是我們國家的領域近幾年大概也沒有人挑戰我們實質管理擁有這塊我們的島我現在要請教的是站在比較宏觀的以中華民國外交部長\n非常謝謝委員其實我們早在2016年的7月南海仲裁之後政府已經透過國安會的會議結論\n已經對外發表我們的這個立場,立場到目前為止一個字都沒有改變那這個立場的主要的內容就是說我們對於南海諸島的這個主權以及相關海域的這個權利這個是毋庸置疑的\n這是屬於我們國家的但是我們也支持自由航行自由飛躍的這種權利那對於南海的這個爭議我們必須要去尋和平的這個方式來加以解決那尤其是這個南海的資源應該是要大家互利共享的這種方式來進行開發那我們的立場到目前為止是一個字都沒有改變這個立場是一貫延續的不管\n你剛剛講的這個問題裡面還有第二個部分就是涉及到最近那個中國跟菲律賓的這些爭議\n中國在對菲律賓施壓的這種方式那我們也發言過很多次就是說對於中國挑起南海地區的這個爭議或者是說在他的這種對外的這種聲張是無限的擴大的這個狀況我們是不予認同的那第三個是整個全球戰略\n謝謝部長其實我們對南海的立場堅定\n那我們國家的利益要顧著在最後30秒我必須對部長講一些話確實因為中共的外交公事我們的正式邦交國失去了一些那是令人遺憾\n我們也該檢討也是外交上我們可以詮釋為錯敗縱使中共用大撒幣我們失去了一些邦交國縱使有些邦交國建立妄議但是我們還是要去面對因為正式的邦交國也是重要的外交事務但是這幾年來\n吳部長還有我們所有外交部的同仁你們讓台灣被國際看見你們讓台灣的重要性被各國重視所以不管在\n對G7、AUKUS、歐盟、NATO、QUAD主流國家的2加2甚至於上次美日非的3加3台灣永遠是在前三名被關心希望和平、穩定、安全的國家這個在坦白講你去看7年前這是不存在的我還沒有去算國際媒體期間的報導我現在講的是正式國家的會議G7這些\n美國是我們最重要的外交關係在台美的部分不管是BTA或者是安全合作軍售的常態化以及友台的法案歐盟所以我們外交還有很多困難的地方在外交的戰場上是真實的面對\n謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.113 --> 00:01.818\n謝謝主席,麻煩部長請部長\n\n00:09.059 --> 00:37.998\n委員好部長老大辛苦那今天是你在我們立法院以外交部長身份最後一次備詢是那本席在這邊好像跟你也陪伴你好幾年的時間是我們今天做一些review還有一些重要事情來討論一下因為外交是延續的不管哪個政黨執政不管誰當部長外交累積的資本跟外交的風險\n\n00:39.299 --> 01:05.452\n他是會往下傳的是全民要一起承受的第一個先請教這個問題坦白說我那天聽到你說有兩個邦交國有長期隱憂我個人會比較往前說一步是要面對中共大撒幣的攻勢大概所有的邦交國甚至於我們既存的參與國際組織都有長期隱憂但是你特別會提出兩個\n\n01:07.293 --> 01:32.611\n通常我們在monitor在觀測這個狀況是該國的內部政治局勢是不是發生變化或者中國有重大的資源集中攻勢在哪個外交戰場才會點出這兩個以你即將卸任外交部長目前我們具備長期隱憂的這兩國你認為他的風險控管還有下一步我們該怎麼處理\n\n01:34.162 --> 01:40.273\n非常謝謝委員吼那我會提出說是長期的隱憂就是說在中段期你溝通多長?這個這個\n\n01:42.648 --> 02:04.725\n沒有辦法去確定,但是在短期間之內,一年兩年三年之內,那個都沒有問題,甚至是其中的一個是我看未來的10年15年20年也都沒有問題,但是會有長期的隱憂是因為看到那個趨勢,的確是對我們來講,我們必須要很關注,比如說有一個友邦他們的內部是陷入非常紛亂的這個狀況,\n\n02:06.727 --> 02:07.448\n有的軍事上是看到敵人已經有灘頭堡了\n\n02:36.561 --> 02:37.542\n我點名問一個我們在委員會這兩三屆在關心的\n\n03:01.209 --> 03:02.650\n在前幾年香港的前主教提出警告\n\n03:28.010 --> 03:56.320\n那幾年確實看到教廷國想要照顧中國教區的信徒無可厚非當時擔心台灣在歐洲唯一的梵蒂岡教廷國會有影響所以就外交部的評估目前教廷國並不在那兩國之內那個沒有問題因為最主要就是說他們跟中國在接觸是希望能夠有一些教務的協議來造福在中國的那個建築教徒中國所有宗教人員都要屬於共產黨的\n\n03:57.120 --> 04:23.475\n對都要官派的對所以一旦教廷國在那邊任命權做折衷的時候就是危機開始曾經他要承認他們的愛國教會相關的任命對但後來連他們要的也都沒有被任命就停下來了好這個是外交部分的review第二個是有關我們在內部為什麼提告我要問的倒不是大家曾經討論過的這些問題我先問在外交上的理由因為你是外交部\n\n04:24.515 --> 04:45.629\n當然機密文件秘密文件循法律管道送到立法院我們可以要求你私下跟我們報告我們也可以開機密會議而且這個所謂的資料是你們送到立法院的不是被挖出來的所以機密對立法院來講它不是機密它已經揭露給我們看了在研究之後為什麼會提告外交上有沒有外交的理由\n\n04:46.311 --> 05:13.344\n有,外交上當然是有理由因為我們會跟其他國家會有這些協議就是因為有高度的這個互信知道說可以彼此來互相幫忙那可是這些很多的這個部分是不適合公開尤其是沒有經過雙方的這個同意是不適合公開的那如果說加以公開的話這個可能就涉及到那個刑法第132條的相關的規定在外交上面可能也會讓我們受到一些\n\n05:13.404 --> 05:15.105\n尤其是這些重要的這些合作夥伴或者是說理念相近國家有很多的這些合作的項目的確是不適合公開\n\n05:38.536 --> 06:05.879\n三月份捷克期間就已經報導了嘛像我們看的內容啦他們報導的是一部分但是沒有把這個文件拿出來給大家看所以這個部分還是秘密就是雙方的賦錄各方面何況報導跟官方去就有具有官方的國會議員或者是官員去確認這是兩件事情報導的話其實雙方可以禮貌的否認但是一旦官方去確認有時候轉折的空間都沒有了所以\n\n06:06.519 --> 06:29.767\n外交上的理由大概是基於彼此的互信那我們的合作方有沒有因為這樣子產生一些變化目前他們跟我們的合作的態度還是非常的明確基本上我們雙方也是簽有這個MOU那雙方都依照這個MOU來走這個捷克的這個機構就是捷克生物科技院的這個院長\n\n06:30.467 --> 06:54.693\n他曾經在上個禮拜對外來闡述他們的這個心情就是說在他們跟台灣很誠心的合作來協助烏克蘭這件事情上面似乎受到了很多的這些誣衊說他們是圖利特定的政治引入等等的他們表達說這個非常的遺憾而且他們感到非常的傷心那對於這種好朋友我們去這樣子的形容真的是很不好\n\n06:55.333 --> 06:58.554\n如果把我們外交部的這些機密的這些文件全部都攤開來的話我們台灣大概也不用搞外交了\n\n07:22.659 --> 07:30.121\n他現在是回頭講說那個核密的如果這個密不夠密我都弄死你他講的是弄死這兩個字我聽到嚇了一大跳\n\n07:32.062 --> 07:56.615\n那位同仁或者你身為部長有什麼感受我覺得這個很不好啦就是說外交是我們國家的事情外交不是某一個政黨的事情而且外交這個是有延續性的在那個蔡英文總統之前是馬英九總統他的這個外交是由蔡英文總統來承接蔡英文總統的這個外交是由賴清德總統來承接所以這個是有延續性的\n\n07:57.435 --> 08:13.099\n我們對外簽訂MOU彼此要求保密的情形下你們會按照法律就送到我們立法院合備嘛所以這是一個公務員按照規範常態性在做的事情政治的攻防不要去恐嚇公務員這個不應該啦\n\n08:15.760 --> 08:44.725\n外交人員或者任何部會人員都是國家的公務人員他不屬於任何一個政黨怎麼會不順利就要弄死他我在這邊也跟委員用一個例子來比比如說我們的道路上面會有這些交通的這個號誌那這個就是一個規範大家遵守這個規範的話就會減少這種車禍等等的這些狀況那如果說堅持要把這些號誌拿掉要把這些交通規範拿掉的話那我想我們台北的這個交通會陷入大亂\n\n08:45.305 --> 08:49.488\n中華民國台灣外交部對目前南海局勢的看法我要請你正式的表達看法這是你離開前本席在外交委員會要請你就南海局勢發表看法\n\n09:16.045 --> 09:37.170\n中共在那邊一下子去騷擾這個菲律賓的經濟水域一下子跟越南有衝突然後呢在那一邊呢他們用他們的海警船用水砲去攻擊菲律賓的海巡船造成人員傷害那美日菲的高峰會也針對這個局勢發表看法還啟動軍演\n\n09:40.891 --> 10:04.809\n然後目前美軍有相當多的軍力跟盟友放在那個位置那當然中共也宣布他那邊要啟動相關的軍演那我們國家的太平島在那裡他是我們國家的領域近幾年大概也沒有人挑戰我們實質管理擁有這塊我們的島我現在要請教的是站在比較宏觀的以中華民國外交部長\n\n10:06.104 --> 10:09.669\n非常謝謝委員其實我們早在2016年的7月南海仲裁之後政府已經透過國安會的會議結論\n\n10:21.224 --> 10:36.739\n已經對外發表我們的這個立場,立場到目前為止一個字都沒有改變那這個立場的主要的內容就是說我們對於南海諸島的這個主權以及相關海域的這個權利這個是毋庸置疑的\n\n10:37.199 --> 11:03.179\n這是屬於我們國家的但是我們也支持自由航行自由飛躍的這種權利那對於南海的這個爭議我們必須要去尋和平的這個方式來加以解決那尤其是這個南海的資源應該是要大家互利共享的這種方式來進行開發那我們的立場到目前為止是一個字都沒有改變這個立場是一貫延續的不管\n\n11:05.401 --> 11:06.422\n你剛剛講的這個問題裡面還有第二個部分就是涉及到最近那個中國跟菲律賓的這些爭議\n\n11:28.102 --> 11:46.253\n中國在對菲律賓施壓的這種方式那我們也發言過很多次就是說對於中國挑起南海地區的這個爭議或者是說在他的這種對外的這種聲張是無限的擴大的這個狀況我們是不予認同的那第三個是整個全球戰略\n\n11:47.073 --> 11:47.413\n謝謝部長其實我們對南海的立場堅定\n\n12:16.744 --> 12:34.589\n那我們國家的利益要顧著在最後30秒我必須對部長講一些話確實因為中共的外交公事我們的正式邦交國失去了一些那是令人遺憾\n\n12:35.669 --> 12:52.735\n我們也該檢討也是外交上我們可以詮釋為錯敗縱使中共用大撒幣我們失去了一些邦交國縱使有些邦交國建立妄議但是我們還是要去面對因為正式的邦交國也是重要的外交事務但是這幾年來\n\n12:54.916 --> 13:05.171\n吳部長還有我們所有外交部的同仁你們讓台灣被國際看見你們讓台灣的重要性被各國重視所以不管在\n\n13:06.311 --> 13:34.077\n對G7、AUKUS、歐盟、NATO、QUAD主流國家的2加2甚至於上次美日非的3加3台灣永遠是在前三名被關心希望和平、穩定、安全的國家這個在坦白講你去看7年前這是不存在的我還沒有去算國際媒體期間的報導我現在講的是正式國家的會議G7這些\n\n13:37.961 --> 13:54.582\n美國是我們最重要的外交關係在台美的部分不管是BTA或者是安全合作軍售的常態化以及友台的法案歐盟所以我們外交還有很多困難的地方在外交的戰場上是真實的面對\n\n13:56.101 --> 13:56.121\n謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.113,"end":1.818,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩部長請部長"},{"start":9.059,"end":37.998,"text":"委員好部長 老大辛苦那今天是你在我們立法院以外交部長身份最後一次備詢是那本席在這邊好像跟你也陪伴你好幾年的時間是我們今天做一些review還有一些重要事情來討論一下因為外交是延續的不管哪個政黨執政不管誰當部長外交累積的資本跟外交的風險"},{"start":39.299,"end":65.452,"text":"他是會往下傳的是全民要一起承受的第一個先請教這個問題坦白說我那天聽到你說有兩個邦交國有長期隱憂我個人會比較往前說一步是要面對中共大撒幣的攻勢大概所有的邦交國甚至於我們既存的參與國際組織都有長期隱憂但是你特別會提出兩個"},{"start":67.293,"end":92.611,"text":"通常我們在monitor在觀測這個狀況是該國的內部政治局勢是不是發生變化或者中國有重大的資源集中攻勢在哪個外交戰場才會點出這兩個以你即將卸任外交部長目前我們具備長期隱憂的這兩國你認為他的風險控管還有下一步我們該怎麼處理"},{"start":94.162,"end":100.273,"text":"非常謝謝委員吼那我會提出說是長期的隱憂就是說在中段期你溝通多長?這個這個"},{"start":102.648,"end":124.725,"text":"沒有辦法去確定,但是在短期間之內,一年兩年三年之內,那個都沒有問題,甚至是其中的一個是我看未來的10年15年20年也都沒有問題,但是會有長期的隱憂是因為看到那個趨勢,的確是對我們來講,我們必須要很關注,比如說有一個友邦他們的內部是陷入非常紛亂的這個狀況,"},{"start":126.727,"end":127.448,"text":"有的軍事上是看到敵人已經有灘頭堡了"},{"start":156.561,"end":157.542,"text":"我點名問一個我們在委員會這兩三屆在關心的"},{"start":181.209,"end":182.65,"text":"在前幾年香港的前主教提出警告"},{"start":208.01,"end":236.32,"text":"那幾年確實看到教廷國想要照顧中國教區的信徒無可厚非當時擔心台灣在歐洲唯一的梵蒂岡教廷國會有影響所以就外交部的評估目前教廷國並不在那兩國之內那個沒有問題因為最主要就是說他們跟中國在接觸是希望能夠有一些教務的協議來造福在中國的那個建築教徒中國所有宗教人員都要屬於共產黨的"},{"start":237.12,"end":263.475,"text":"對都要官派的對所以一旦教廷國在那邊任命權做折衷的時候就是危機開始曾經他要承認他們的愛國教會相關的任命對但後來連他們要的也都沒有被任命就停下來了好這個是外交部分的review第二個是有關我們在內部為什麼提告我要問的倒不是大家曾經討論過的這些問題我先問在外交上的理由因為你是外交部"},{"start":264.515,"end":285.629,"text":"當然機密文件秘密文件循法律管道送到立法院我們可以要求你私下跟我們報告我們也可以開機密會議而且這個所謂的資料是你們送到立法院的不是被挖出來的所以機密對立法院來講它不是機密它已經揭露給我們看了在研究之後為什麼會提告外交上有沒有外交的理由"},{"start":286.311,"end":313.344,"text":"有,外交上當然是有理由因為我們會跟其他國家會有這些協議就是因為有高度的這個互信知道說可以彼此來互相幫忙那可是這些很多的這個部分是不適合公開尤其是沒有經過雙方的這個同意是不適合公開的那如果說加以公開的話這個可能就涉及到那個刑法第132條的相關的規定在外交上面可能也會讓我們受到一些"},{"start":313.404,"end":315.105,"text":"尤其是這些重要的這些合作夥伴或者是說理念相近國家有很多的這些合作的項目的確是不適合公開"},{"start":338.536,"end":365.879,"text":"三月份捷克期間就已經報導了嘛像我們看的內容啦他們報導的是一部分但是沒有把這個文件拿出來給大家看所以這個部分還是秘密就是雙方的賦錄各方面何況報導跟官方去就有具有官方的國會議員或者是官員去確認這是兩件事情報導的話其實雙方可以禮貌的否認但是一旦官方去確認有時候轉折的空間都沒有了所以"},{"start":366.519,"end":389.767,"text":"外交上的理由大概是基於彼此的互信那我們的合作方有沒有因為這樣子產生一些變化目前他們跟我們的合作的態度還是非常的明確基本上我們雙方也是簽有這個MOU那雙方都依照這個MOU來走這個捷克的這個機構就是捷克生物科技院的這個院長"},{"start":390.467,"end":414.693,"text":"他曾經在上個禮拜對外來闡述他們的這個心情就是說在他們跟台灣很誠心的合作來協助烏克蘭這件事情上面似乎受到了很多的這些誣衊說他們是圖利特定的政治引入等等的他們表達說這個非常的遺憾而且他們感到非常的傷心那對於這種好朋友我們去這樣子的形容真的是很不好"},{"start":415.333,"end":418.554,"text":"如果把我們外交部的這些機密的這些文件全部都攤開來的話我們台灣大概也不用搞外交了"},{"start":442.659,"end":450.121,"text":"他現在是回頭講說那個核密的如果這個密不夠密我都弄死你他講的是弄死這兩個字我聽到嚇了一大跳"},{"start":452.062,"end":476.615,"text":"那位同仁或者你身為部長有什麼感受我覺得這個很不好啦就是說外交是我們國家的事情外交不是某一個政黨的事情而且外交這個是有延續性的在那個蔡英文總統之前是馬英九總統他的這個外交是由蔡英文總統來承接蔡英文總統的這個外交是由賴清德總統來承接所以這個是有延續性的"},{"start":477.435,"end":493.099,"text":"我們對外簽訂MOU彼此要求保密的情形下你們會按照法律就送到我們立法院合備嘛所以這是一個公務員按照規範常態性在做的事情政治的攻防不要去恐嚇公務員這個不應該啦"},{"start":495.76,"end":524.725,"text":"外交人員或者任何部會人員都是國家的公務人員他不屬於任何一個政黨怎麼會不順利就要弄死他我在這邊也跟委員用一個例子來比比如說我們的道路上面會有這些交通的這個號誌那這個就是一個規範大家遵守這個規範的話就會減少這種車禍等等的這些狀況那如果說堅持要把這些號誌拿掉要把這些交通規範拿掉的話那我想我們台北的這個交通會陷入大亂"},{"start":525.305,"end":529.488,"text":"中華民國台灣外交部對目前南海局勢的看法我要請你正式的表達看法這是你離開前本席在外交委員會要請你就南海局勢發表看法"},{"start":556.045,"end":577.17,"text":"中共在那邊一下子去騷擾這個菲律賓的經濟水域一下子跟越南有衝突然後呢在那一邊呢他們用他們的海警船用水砲去攻擊菲律賓的海巡船造成人員傷害那美日菲的高峰會也針對這個局勢發表看法還啟動軍演"},{"start":580.891,"end":604.809,"text":"然後目前美軍有相當多的軍力跟盟友放在那個位置那當然中共也宣布他那邊要啟動相關的軍演那我們國家的太平島在那裡他是我們國家的領域近幾年大概也沒有人挑戰我們實質管理擁有這塊我們的島我現在要請教的是站在比較宏觀的以中華民國外交部長"},{"start":606.104,"end":609.669,"text":"非常謝謝委員其實我們早在2016年的7月南海仲裁之後政府已經透過國安會的會議結論"},{"start":621.224,"end":636.739,"text":"已經對外發表我們的這個立場,立場到目前為止一個字都沒有改變那這個立場的主要的內容就是說我們對於南海諸島的這個主權以及相關海域的這個權利這個是毋庸置疑的"},{"start":637.199,"end":663.179,"text":"這是屬於我們國家的但是我們也支持自由航行自由飛躍的這種權利那對於南海的這個爭議我們必須要去尋和平的這個方式來加以解決那尤其是這個南海的資源應該是要大家互利共享的這種方式來進行開發那我們的立場到目前為止是一個字都沒有改變這個立場是一貫延續的不管"},{"start":665.401,"end":666.422,"text":"你剛剛講的這個問題裡面還有第二個部分就是涉及到最近那個中國跟菲律賓的這些爭議"},{"start":688.102,"end":706.253,"text":"中國在對菲律賓施壓的這種方式那我們也發言過很多次就是說對於中國挑起南海地區的這個爭議或者是說在他的這種對外的這種聲張是無限的擴大的這個狀況我們是不予認同的那第三個是整個全球戰略"},{"start":707.073,"end":707.413,"text":"謝謝部長其實我們對南海的立場堅定"},{"start":736.744,"end":754.589,"text":"那我們國家的利益要顧著在最後30秒我必須對部長講一些話確實因為中共的外交公事我們的正式邦交國失去了一些那是令人遺憾"},{"start":755.669,"end":772.735,"text":"我們也該檢討也是外交上我們可以詮釋為錯敗縱使中共用大撒幣我們失去了一些邦交國縱使有些邦交國建立妄議但是我們還是要去面對因為正式的邦交國也是重要的外交事務但是這幾年來"},{"start":774.916,"end":785.171,"text":"吳部長還有我們所有外交部的同仁你們讓台灣被國際看見你們讓台灣的重要性被各國重視所以不管在"},{"start":786.311,"end":814.077,"text":"對G7、AUKUS、歐盟、NATO、QUAD主流國家的2加2甚至於上次美日非的3加3台灣永遠是在前三名被關心希望和平、穩定、安全的國家這個在坦白講你去看7年前這是不存在的我還沒有去算國際媒體期間的報導我現在講的是正式國家的會議G7這些"},{"start":817.961,"end":834.582,"text":"美國是我們最重要的外交關係在台美的部分不管是BTA或者是安全合作軍售的常態化以及友台的法案歐盟所以我們外交還有很多困難的地方在外交的戰場上是真實的面對"},{"start":836.101,"end":836.121,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}}}}