{"id":152523,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152523","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c02b4ad4fc929f7ca696869206de9aca73abc25b9e10ac7e457de200420ef263515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:53:45 - 11:06:20","影片長度":"00:12:35","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「總統行使特赦後，該案未沒收之不法所得及停審未定讞案件之處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-22"},"duration":755,"end_time":"2024-05-15T11:06:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T10:53:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":602,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時53分）主席，謝謝，請次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：次長，依照赦免法相關的規定，未來赦免，你是承總統之令做相關的研議，由法務部研議嘛，對不對？過去中華民國有8次的特赦紀錄，剛才莊瑞雄委員也有臚列出來，我想我就不一一贅述了。但是我們看到這8次的特赦，有蔣中正總統、有李登輝總統、陳水扁自己本身擔任總統時也有兩度特赦，蔡英文總統也有兩次特赦，一個是對布農族的原住民獵人王光祿，第二次就是針對韓豫平少將以及他的隨從官，分別予以特赦。這些特赦案，我們詳細予以歸類，大概就是有政治犯、有判亂罪，透過特赦達成一個和解，也有因為立下戰功，也有因為價值理念衝突而不慎觸法的，也有因為族群、宗教信仰的不同而觸法，也有因為情輕法重，判決量刑不符社會期待而予以特赦。我現在想請問次長，陳水扁前總統因為貪污案被判刑20年，龍潭購地案判刑那麼重，你認為予以特赦的理由符合前面幾次特赦的理由嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我剛剛一直強調，到目前為止，法務部還沒有收到正式特赦令的總統指示，我們沒有辦法先做預測。另外，誰該特赦、誰不該特赦？憲法規定是總統的特別權力，我也沒有辦法預判。"],["林委員思銘：是。次長，但是我想未來你會承他的命研議嘛，所以我們現在就很好奇，到底總統為什麼要去特赦陳水扁總統？其實我在想最主要的原因可能就基於他是前總統，他是民進黨的創黨大老，所以蔡總統就在下任前想要給他一個特赦。我想基本上對於蔡總統的特赦權，我們予以尊重，社會自有公評。但這次引起社會大眾非常大的一個疑慮，就是認為這次特赦案的範圍就僅限於龍潭購地案以及買官案，另外4個正在停審中的二次金改國泰併世華等4個案件不在範圍內，所以他的特赦正當性備受質疑！也就是說，過去特赦的對象是他已經沒有背負任何司法案件，他已經沒有任何司法案件正在法院審理中了，但是陳水扁前總統如果這個案件特赦，但是他身上還仍然背負4個案件還沒有判決定讞，這樣的情況之下總統要予以特赦嗎？法務部您的看法？你認為這樣子有正當性嗎？一個人還背負4個案子，竟然總統要對他已經被判決確定的其中一個案子予以特赦，站在法務部追求公正正義的立場，你認為對於這樣一個罪犯給他特赦，對得起我們這個社會、對得起這個國家、對得起被判刑確定的人民嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這個問題如同我剛剛所回復委員的，特赦是總統的權力。"],["林委員思銘：次長，我想我也不為難你啦！其實我很想告訴民進黨的朋友們，在這4個案件還沒有判決定讞前，蔡總統要特赦陳水扁真的不符社會的期待，我們尊重你的特赦權，但是你要行使特赦權，真的要考慮清楚它的正當性在哪裡。我個人建議，如果蔡總統或者未來的賴清德總統，你們真的那麼想要特赦陳水扁的話，是不是等到他這4個案子定讞之後再一併全部特赦，這樣不是更好嗎？就基於他是前總統，你們要尊重他，我想我們沒有意見，但是在這4個案件還沒有判決定讞前你們要特赦他，從法的立場來看，真的很站不住腳啦！所以我也希望法務部還有司法院，秘書長，如果想要讓陳水扁趕快獲得特赦，這4個停審的案件儘快恢復審理，不要再遮遮掩掩了。剛才謝龍介委員講的，追訴權時效可能都快消滅了，趕快恢復審判嘛！陳水扁總統就出來面對嘛！你停審的原因，剛才我們的總召傅崐萁委員也講得非常清楚，完全不符合停審的相關規定，保外就醫還能夠趴趴走，大家都覺得根本不是在實踐司法正義，而是讓一個人享有特權。所以我們是希望，如果真的要特赦他，我的建議是，陳水扁總統趕快就你的4個案件，有罪、無罪在還沒有確定前，我不敢講，但是你面對司法的審理，趕快把這4個案件作出判決，待定讞之後我才呼籲未來的賴清德總統再來決定要不要給予特赦，我想這個正當性可能會比較夠。次長，您同意我的看法嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：我尊重委員的決定，也尊重總統的職權。"],["林委員思銘：秘書長，針對停審的原因，顯然我們看起來就已經消滅了嘛！司法院是不是要儘速地通知他趕快重啟審判？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個屬於個案，是個案法官的權責，他會加以判斷。"],["林委員思銘：秘書長，這不是個案，我想大家是明眼人都看得很清楚，你本身也擔任過法官，法學素養一定非常地深厚嘛！就您個人的判斷，您認為這個個案看到他趴趴走，這個還符合保外就醫的要件嗎？這種案件，法官針對這個個案難道還不趕快重啟審判嗎？司法院沒有一個立場嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：司法行政……"],["林委員思銘：這個你們都可以裁量的嘛！你們現在就完全等於說是把司法正義拋在腦後了啦！只因為他是陳水扁前總統啦！所以這個不好啦！","最後一個問題我再問你一下，我想除了特赦的問題以外，有關於全國大減刑，我們看一下在1971年蔣中正總統有做全國大減刑，1975年嚴家淦總統也有，1988年及1991年李登輝總統也有做大減刑，2007年陳水扁任內也有實行，所以歷年來已經有5次減刑。以最近一次的2007年為例，符合減刑的資格共有2萬5,000人，當時有1萬943人出獄。請問次長，當時減刑的原因跟理由是什麼，你知道嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：因為歷年來至少有5次減刑，每一次減刑的條件跟理由都不一樣。"],["林委員思銘：是啊！您大概可以敘述一下，你還記得嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：我手上沒有資料，因為它的理由都有寫。"],["林委員思銘：我請問一下，其中一個原因會不會是因為監所人滿為患？"],["黃次長謀信：這是一個附屬的效應，但也不會把它拿來當作減刑的事由。"],["林委員思銘：另外一個是不是總統大赦天下，他要去寬宥這些犯罪者，希望他能夠趕快重新做人、以啟自新，所以給以予減刑的寬典？"],["黃次長謀信：我們的赦免法中，大赦、特赦、減刑、復權都有這樣的效應，這是總統特別的權力，會產生剛剛委員所提的效應。"],["林委員思銘：是嘛！所以前面幾任總統的5次減刑，其實主要的理由應該就是，他給予這些寬典，就是在展現他讓罪犯能夠有自新的機會，趕快回復到社會重新做人、以啟自新。所以我想問你，這一次賴清德總統上任，有可能實行全國性的減刑嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這個還是總統的職權，我不敢說。但是如果要全國性減刑的話，他必須要比照大赦的程序來處理，那就是一個法律案了，就必須要經過……"],["林委員思銘：所以法務部也沒有接受這方面的訊息？"],["黃次長謀信：目前沒有。"],["林委員思銘：主席，我再問一個問題。次長，因為你剛才一直提到，你到現在為止都沒有收到總統叫行政院下令給你們法務部，要求趕快做相關赦免的研議。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["林委員思銘：那請問你，現在蔡總統的任期只剩下5天而已，如果他在這幾天下令，請你們法務部趕快研議，你作業上來得及嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，赦免法是規定，他是「得交」研議，他也可以不交，他也可以自己就作赦免的決定，不見得要交研議。"],["林委員思銘：他自己直接作……"],["黃次長謀信：對，赦免法規定的是「得交」本部來研議，是「得」，所以不見得會交研議。"],["林委員思銘：如果他交給你們研議，你們來得及作業嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我剛剛有說，事實上法務部就社會上爭議的問題，我們都有做一些法制上的研議或處理，也不是為了這個個案，事實上任何……"],["林委員思銘：所以你們有在預做研議、著手做研議了？"],["黃次長謀信：做法律上的討論，不是就這個個案做研議。法律上的討論，我們當然會做一些先期的處理，任何一個法律上的爭議我們都會……"],["林委員思銘：所以你來得及就對了？我們現在講的是假設嘛！如果他就是希望你們法務部……，法務部一定要有一個說法啊！總統自己直接發布這個令，這也滿奇怪的啊！不會叫你法務部直接做一個研議的方向給他嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：但法律上規定的是「得」，不見得一定、必須要，不是「應」而是「得」。"],["林委員思銘：所以你們作業上來得及嗎？你就給我回答來得及、來不及。"],["黃次長謀信：事實上法律上研議我們會在一定的期限內完成，如果有必要的話。"],["林委員思銘：好，謝謝，以上。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","我們現在先處理臨時提案，臨時提案共1案，請議事人員宣讀。","一、","案由：","法務部於今年4月24日及5月2日，就「如何簡化偵查、審判訴訟程序與書類製作」議題，向本委員會提報藉由「110-112年三年期之檢察機關AI智慧輔助系統」建置，可利用AI系統1.生成酒駕類型書類初稿；2.製作詐欺案件被害人匯款附表；3.判讀累犯；4.產製發查或核退建議；5.案件數位電子卷證的加註標籤及辨識等外，並建構地檢署介接警詢筆錄電子檔系統。此外，自111年5月1日起，各地檢署試行「內勤案件以遠距視訊解送」制度，法務部認該AI系統及視訊制度有助於減輕檢警的工作負荷或簡化偵查流程。","稽之上開AI系統係法務部於110年提報之「新世代檢察革新科技計畫」，業已建置完備，經費總計3,169萬2,000元，且視訊制度推行2年有餘，然於5月2日召開公聽會時，有學者專家質疑各該系統績效不彰，制度甚或未積極推動落實。是以，實際之執行成效如何，究否逹成預期的成果，惟法務部報告中，均未提出迄今的具體統計數據（例如，符合預設案件類型的案件數、實際採用的案件數、成效滿意度），以供本委員會研議，公帑是否確實用在刀口上，有無實際減輕基層檢警同仁的工作負荷，以利判斷計畫執行成果是否正向。","基此，爰建請作成決議，要求法務部於明（16）日內提供績效報告，及上開闕漏之統計數據，並於二個月內提出檢討及精進報告，內容應併含如下事項：","1.研議輕微竊盜案件是否於內勤當天，利用遠距視訊偵訊告訴人，以縮短後續偵查時程、提升緩起訴處分或職權處分件數及書類簡化的可行性，以及其他能有效縮短案件偵查時程之具體措施。","2.工欲善其事，必先利其器，遠距視訊硬體及相關設備的穩定性及便捷性，素為使用者所詬病，嚴重影響制度的推展及成果，應定期或不定期檢討硬體設備品質良莠、使用情形，及研議如何提高政策執行成效的具體措施。","提案人：吳宗憲","連署人：黃國昌　　翁曉玲"],["主席：因為現在還有第二個臨時提案，是剛剛提出來的，我們現在也一併宣讀第二案。","二、","案由：委員羅智強等6人，有鑑於本委員會議事過程屢遭不當干擾，個別委員未經主席允許即使用麥克風，或是刻意影響其他委員發言。建請立法院總務單位，針對本委員會麥克風，設置相關靜音裝置，供會議主席維持議場秩序維護國會形象及品質，以利議事順暢進行。是否有當，敬請公決。","提案人：羅智強　　翁曉玲　　傅崐萁　　謝龍介　　黃國昌　　林思銘"],["主席：謝謝。如果你們有需要第二案的書面資料，我請議事人員準備。","就第一案的部分，因為是我提的臨時提案，所以我這邊簡單就臨時提案的部分說明。","臨時提案的部分，主要是法務部過去3年有一個AI系統的建置，但是這個部分因為我參加了歷次的許多公聽會，有很多專家學者以及目前有施行桃園地檢的檢察官認為這個系統的績效不彰。因為過去總共花費的預算已經有3,169萬2,000元了，在法務部的報告中並沒有提出到目前為止的具體數據，例如符合這些案件類型的案件數或實際採用的案件數，或是成效的滿意度，這個都沒有。","因為法務部接下來3年也都還要繼續這個計畫，我們為了確定這個錢是使用在刀口上的，是不是真的有這個必要，我們當然會依據法務部所提供的數據去瞭解我們要持續地支持還是要對這個部分加以限縮，所以我希望法務部明天能夠提出績效報告。","另外，還要在2個月內要提出一個研討跟精進的報告。有關績效的部分，為什麼我說明天要提出來給我？因為相關的數據，法務部之前也給過國科會，但是法務部並沒有給我，我也不懂這個原因是什麼，法務部可以給國科會，為什麼不可以給我？所以我希望法務部在明天能夠把數據給我們。","另外，也要去思考一下，微罪遠距訊問的一些設備，還有目前的狀況，以提升緩起訴或職權處分件數，還有書類簡化的可行性。再來就是遠端視訊設備的穩定性還有便捷性，我們是不是要定期或不定期地研討？","我的臨時提案的內容如上。請鍾委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席，本席對這個臨時提案的本意敬表同意，而且支持，因為我們要讓我們的基層司法人員能夠減輕負擔，工欲善其事，必先利其器，不管是AI，還是遠端視訊，過去在其他地方都有採行過，提升它的品質及效率的確是我們應該支持的。","那剛剛主席在提到本提案的內容之一說到明日要提供，因為這個很讓人詫異！短短一天要怎麼提供？不過後來主席有做提案說明，說因為之前法務部有提供給國科會，卻沒有提供給我們召委，所以我是不是可以請主席請法務部說明一下，為什麼這個東西你可以提供給國科會，卻不能給本委員會的召委或本委員會？"],["主席：莊委員，你要先……"],["鍾委員佳濱：請他們說明。"],["主席：因為剛剛莊委員有舉手。莊委員，你要先說明，還是要先……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我對如何有效來縮減整個偵查程序，不要讓它過於延宕，這個其實談的都是訴訟經濟，但是對召委吳宗憲委員這樣的一個提案，我有幾個疑慮，譬如你說輕微案件是否在內勤當天，當然這個應該指的是檢察官，也就是檢察官當天利用遠距視訊偵訊告訴人，以縮短後續的偵查程序，這樣當然不用舟車勞頓，對被告、對被偵訊人本身也有利益，經濟上的利益，可是有時候你也很難馬上就判斷這叫輕微的竊盜案件，結果輕不輕微都變成警察局的基層第一線人員去做判斷，最後檢察官一問下去或者一個案子程序踐行完以後一問下去，共犯又一大堆，所以什麼叫做「輕微」？我們兩個相約來偷摘芒果，摘一堆，摘了以後，好像偷摘芒果沒什麼，可是看到最後，一串像肉粽。","對整個訴訟經濟，還有減緩司法人員的壓力，我相信在司法委員會裡面經過大家的論辯，司法院也好，法務部也好，大家其實都往這個方向去做，可是用遠距偵訊的方式與書類的簡化其實是兩件事，真的是兩件事，又是不是這樣就能提升緩起訴案件，其實也未必，這也都未必。所以對你的提案，從這個提案的微言大義裡面，我可以知道方向我們大家都一致，只是是不是可以改一下？因為這其實是兩件事，視訊的偵訊與書類的簡化，我是覺得這是兩碼事，以上。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員，這個提案說明的部分，我就簡單補充一下，原則上，就是……"],["莊委員瑞雄：文字啦！"],["主席：好，沒問題。主要提這個是因為現在內勤受理現行犯，我自己的經驗，其實很多是類似超商竊盜，偷個小麵包、牛奶那一種，那是不是需要用到2、3個警察把他移送到地檢，這個我們主要是考量經濟的問題，像2個警察送1個人犯到地檢署有時候車程是40分鐘，甚至1個小時，譬如從大溪分局送到桃園地檢署，我主要是考量這個，當然這個只是提案給法務部，法務部可以去設計怎麼樣的模式比較適當，沒問題。這個文字的部分，如果莊委員有建議怎麼修正，我們再來討論，但是大意上，我想應該大家都還蠻認同我們簡化檢警的壓力。","接下來是不是請法務部能夠說明一下，這個數據為什麼有提供給國科會，並沒有提供給我們？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，因為AI的計畫基本上是國科會就整體國家相關的科學發展動用國科會的基金，所以在內控上，我們必須要定期地向國科會陳報一些成果績效，至於為什麼沒有報到大院，因為我沒有印象大院有要求本部就這個數據提供過，如果要提供，當然沒有問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：明天……"],["沈委員發惠：時間……"],["黃次長謀信：時間的話，明天是不是有點急？是不是可以再寬限長一點的時間？"],["莊委員瑞雄：一個禮拜啦！"],["沈委員發惠：一個禮拜，讓他們行政作業啦！"],["主席：因為這個數據他們已經提供過了，還需要那麼久嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：有一個作業……"],["沈委員發惠：他們公務機關，公文要簽簽簽，不是……"],["主席：不然，這樣好不好？這個禮拜提供，好不好？今天才禮拜三，這個禮拜數據提供給我們，之前我們其實就AI的部分已經問過很多次了，部裡面的相關事情，是不是你們把提供給國科會的數據給我們就好？次長，其實我們不是要擋這件事，我們是要把這件事情弄清楚而已，也許我們會非常地支持……"],["黃次長謀信：召委提的是三天內，還是這個禮拜之前？"],["主席：對，就這個禮拜給我們，好不好？"],["黃次長謀信：好。另外，就內容的部分，跟委員報告，是不是我們司長做一些簡單的回應？"],["主席：OK。"],["郭司長永發：主席、各位委員，大家好！有關於這個臨時提案的第5行，我們建議「建構」兩字改成「達成」；然後因為我們沒有系統，那是電子檔，沒有系統，這個「系統」兩字是不是刪除？另外，我們這個內勤視訊是從111年12月1日開始，不是5月1日開始，所以也建議把它改成12月1日；還有第二段「（例如……）」裡面的文句，是不是建議「符合預設案件類型的案件數」改成「試辦案件的件數」？因為這樣比較符合實際；然後「實際採用」後面加4個字，就是「視訊解送」這4個字。就以上的修正，建請能夠用這種方式提案，以上說明。"],["主席：請問一下，對剛剛機關希望修改的這個部分，各位委員有沒有不同的意見？"],["沈委員發惠：沒意見。"],["莊委員瑞雄：沒意見。"],["主席：有嗎？沒有。請鍾委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是給每位委員都一份，好不好？不是只有召委有。"],["主席：好，會。"],["莊委員瑞雄：委員會每個委員一份。"],["主席：好，修改後的資料麻煩給各位委員都各一份。"],["鍾委員佳濱：包括他們本週內或者下週前提供的這個資料不是只有給召委，是給本會委員。"],["主席：是、是、是，謝謝。","如果各位委員和機關都沒有其他異議的話，我們就依照修正後的文字通過。","現在我們就善用時間，直接先處理第二案好了。就第二案的部分，請問提案委員有沒有補充說明？"],["羅委員智強：鑒於其他委員會的布置狀態及詢答的狀態，我覺得在我們司法及法制委員會有一點獨樹一幟，就是每個委員的席上都有麥克風，因為發現過去確實常常會有相互干擾，影響主席主持會議的情形，所以我的提案重點就是把我們這個桌上型麥克風設置一個靜音的總開關，麻煩總務處來設置，我們平常在詢答的過程當中，基本上總開關就不開，但是有些特殊狀況需要開的話，另外再去處理，比方說我看黨團協商有時候會在這個地方舉行，有需要桌上型麥克風再另外開，平常我們不管是佳濱，或者是宗憲召委在主持會議的時候，桌上型麥克風有一個總開關就把它關掉了，你要講話就到這兩個臺上來講，這樣比較能夠使我們的議事跟會議進行比較有效率一點點，以上。"],["主席：謝謝，提案委員已經補充說明完畢。","請莊委員發言。"],["莊委員瑞雄：主席及在場所有的委員，對於羅智強委員的提案，我敬表反對。你看在各個委員會裡面，你去想想看，在我們司法及法制委員會其實叫作過度攻防，這個也都是短暫的，你說多干擾，現在整個司法及法制委員會如果不這樣吵來吵去，其實也不像司法及法制委員會，我坐在這邊沒有看到你們吵，我也不太習慣，我真的也不太習慣，你說刻意去干擾其他委員、影響其他委員，其實這也沒有啦！那個就是叫爭執，也不會說羅智強講話，我就說你在說什麼有的沒有的，這也都不是啦！我們從現場都可以判斷得出來，其實就是意見的不同，表達方式大家難免會有所不同，剛好都是碰到議題啦，議題是極度的一個爭議，我倒是這樣建議，這種案子羅委員再思考一下，不要處理這個提案啦！沒人會在羅智強講話時，大家會刻意去影響，說不定當你在說話時，如果我來亂，你一定很爽的說：莊瑞雄這樣來亂一下，太好了，我們兩個在這邊吵架。我們兩個哪有在吵架，這都是吵假的，哪裡有在吵架，你去看啦，司法及法制委員會如果做這個限制以後，大家又會去牽拖嘛，那整個院會呢？在委員會你可以講得義正辭嚴，你去看真正在院會裡面，每次拿著麥克風大吵大鬧都是你們國民黨，我不好意思說而已，但是我覺得很好耶！我覺得你們吵得很好，我那邊聽都很悅耳，每次在表決時，我如果沒聽你們國民黨拿個麥克風在那邊亂一下，我說那就不像國民黨了！我說那就不像國民黨了！所以說什麼設置靜音裝置，你如果要這樣做，乾脆整個院會都這樣處理，以後麥克風都不要拿進去，或是以後要拿麥克風進去，就授權韓國瑜院長有一個裝置可以把國民黨帶進來的麥克風消音。","整個議事程序的進行有沒有辦法維持，這個其實都在考驗著主席的功力，有時候我也知道你會擔心司法及法制委員會沒鏡頭，有時候你眼睛會瞄我一下，叫我下去，我怎麼會不知道。所以在這個會期我們就讓司法及法制委員會優雅一點，就繼續把它吵下去，意見不同、不斷地攻防是好事，我也沒看到罵來罵去的人出去像仇人，不會啦、不會啦，過度攻防在司法及法制委員會，過一陣子大家熟了以後，像傅崐萁今天又再說，我連理睬都不想理睬他，他講什麼我都不想聽了！如果當傅崐萁總召講什麼話，我都不想聽，沒有頂他兩句，他回到花蓮去，他會覺得我今天都沒有人捧場，這也不太好。","召委，我是建議羅智強委員先把這個再考慮一下，不要處理這個啦！這個變成好像有點在報復啊！不要牽扯到個人，在司法及法制委員會裡面既然熱熱鬧鬧，就讓它吵得熱熱鬧鬧，司法及法制委員會我們反而是在對尖銳議題的攻防下，讓社會去評價就好了；譬如說，你講話我給你騷擾，你的支持者一定會訐譙我嘛，社會大眾也會覺得莊瑞雄為什麼這麼沒有禮貌，這種事不要在我們司法及法制委員會去限縮這一些，不好啦！國會自主，當然我們也希望有一定的秩序，但是刻意去限縮，那個射程都會很遠，你們這樣提出這個案子，如果在院會去提案，因為國民黨現在是多數，所以在院會裡面，本院中國國民黨長期以來霸占整個院會議場，都用麥克風在那邊嘶吼，先把它放在前面，再來講委員會，我就覺得這個就很好啦，所以沒有這樣吵吵鬧鬧也不像國會啦，好不好？"],["主席：謝謝莊委員。莊委員，我沒有那麼聰明啦！還會幫大家設計鏡頭，我沒那麼厲害啦。","蔡委員剛剛先舉手。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我附和莊委員，如果在委員會你說麥克風要設置一個靜音系統，是司法委員會有獨立的麥克風，其他委員會是使用無線的，你的意思是其他委員會也要比照這個精神、也要強制把它關起來，每一個委員會都會有用麥克風的狀況，你現在要設置一個靜音系統，到時候像院會開會的時候，國民黨就拿自己的麥克風，這樣我們以後是不是要用遮斷系統，將訊號全部都弄斷，這樣下去會沒完沒了啦！我是覺得像剛才莊委員說的，本來議題就是會討論，討論有時就會有情緒，情緒來了有時會說到開花，本來就是討論的過程啊！總不能你連這個討論過程都要把它精簡掉，都不要讓人討論，我覺得這也不好。過去民進黨在以前多數的時候，也是一樣會有討論，也是會有吵吵鬧鬧的過程，我覺得這都是議場必經的啦！我覺得提出這一案，沒意思啦！要有風度、沒風度，這要看個人啦！大家所有的發言都是會讓社會檢驗的，沒有必要用這個案來封殺任何議事的作為，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：請鍾委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝主席。我想誠如前面兩位委員所表達的，其實在我們立法院除了委員會中心主義之外，委員會都有各自自己的傳統，這個傳統不是我們在座幾任的任期就可以形成的。我舉例來講，幾位新科委員有沒有發現財政委員會的簽出席跟簽到發言，沒有到8點才在排隊等簽發言的，他們是早上4點來依序，誰在那邊搶得到7點半，就按照那個順序簽發言；簽完發言之後，他們就好整以暇，等8點到各委員會去簽名，如果我們不在財政委員會，我們可以去干預嗎？不會！財政委員會有因為別的委員會沒有這樣，它就改變嗎？沒有。所以其實一個有歷史傳統的國會，慢慢會形成各自的文化，好或不好，你喜歡或不喜歡，它就是一個。我們司法及法制委員會目前的桌上麥克風就跟其他委員會不一樣，在財政委員會過去叫作預算委員會，最常在審預算，審預算時是一大堆人，所以為什麼財政委員會在九樓大禮堂，但是真正審預算的時候，也是誠如剛剛蔡委員說的，就是一人一支手持麥克風跟主席在對談，主席坐在哪裡？那時候主席不會坐在主席臺上，主席都坐在他們現在放法典的地方，為什麼？便於討論。但那時候那麼近，為什麼還要麥克風呢？麥克風是議事人員要收音之用，因為預算審查的時候，每個委員他到底什麼理由、刪除多少、保留多少或怎麼樣，議事人都要很清楚。所以我要強調的，可能大家一時看到的是在議場的議事衝突，或是委員會的程序，那個其實都不是我們國會審議正常的常態，真正的常態就是大家面對面，你一言我一語，很迅速、有效率地討論，主席也只有在會議秩序混亂的時候才會出來整理，我相信吳召委或者本席輪值召委的時候，我都會儘量地讓大家互動討論能順暢。簡單講，會議的主席，你可以說他是交通警察，你可以說他是裁判，其實在籃球場上，有時候大家碰撞一下，裁判不會馬上吹犯規。","所以我是覺得這個案子避免有一種針對性的，如果真的要說針對性，我大概可以理解這個提案提出的原因，就是前天在司法及法制委員會的會議室被朝野協商借來使用，為什麼朝野協商用這裡呢？幾位新科委員跟大家報告一下，過去我們的朝野協商都在議場三樓會議室，那個會議室的格局就是這樣子，每個人面前都有一個麥克風，但是為什麼要移來這裡呢？因為那裡的空間狹小，這裡反而是所有的委員會中具有桌前麥克風又有相對大的空間，不然大家去看看議場後面三樓的會議室，那是非常小啊！以前在做預算協商的時候，部會都要散到議場底下的休息室去排列，那為什麼不到九樓大禮堂？因為九樓大禮堂沒有這樣的桌上麥克風。所以其實這樣的演變，讓政黨朝野協商跑到利用紅樓302會議室是有這個原因的，大家不要因為一時的議事的互動就做出這樣的決定，不然誠如委員說的，難道無線麥克風你都可以裝靜音嗎？這樣會讓人家覺得有爭議性。剛好這個提案內容，其實我也很想就教於提案委員，本來他沒有加，他後來加了一個什麼字？加了「維護國會形象及品質」，我認同我們的會場要有秩序，要由主席來維持，但是國會形象跟品質不是靠這個，可以把國會議員任意地驅逐出場嗎？可以不經討論就要逕付表決嗎？這些才是社會關切的國會形象內容，在我們這個會議室當中，每位委員都可以出席，包括秘密會議都有一個限制上符合的要求，但是委員要發言，當然我們要尊重，由主席來裁決，但是有時候在一些會議的進行情況，你一言我一語，當然會有一點點混亂，但是只要議事能夠進行，大家不要採取過當的手段去造成這樣針對性的情況。","我再次強調，其他的委員會雖然沒有桌上型的麥克風，但是都有無線麥克風，它能裝靜音嗎？第二、目前這樣的配置，剛好可以補我們朝野協商議場3樓空間不足的情況，你要把那樣的情況放到這裡來，我想包括在場過去在第9屆我們黃總召、黃國昌委員代表時代力量的時候，我們看到在那裡，不管是蘇院長還是游院長，都儘可能地讓每一個政黨的代表、參與協商代表暢所欲言，從來沒有在議場後面3樓的會議室上去使用靜音的裝置，頂多如果大家太熱烈了，主席會說我們休息一下，以前都說到外面移車，沒有啦！沒有移車啦！就到外面去舒緩一下，再繼續討論，這是民主議會的常態，請大家不要做過度的、針對性的解決，以上建議。"],["主席：是，對，羅委員先的。"],["羅委員智強：我來這個台就是示範一下，基本上不要講得這麼嚴重啦！還有這兩個麥克風在，我講的是桌上型，第一個、如果真的照鍾佳濱委員講得這麼傳統、這麼神聖，這兩個台也不該放上來嘛！不是嗎？這兩個台是我們共同決議放上來的啊！我們提議你們同意，柯建銘總召當時也是認為說怎麼會把這兩個質詢台拆掉，他也不認同，他直接講的啊！所以那次基本上是無異議通過把這兩個台放上來的，所以我要講的重點是什麼？你剛剛講無線麥克風，拜託，我們到別的委員會，你平常有看到無線麥克風拿出來在質詢的時候嗎？在桌子上、座位上講嗎？第三個、我要跟你講，大家都是到備詢台上跟質詢台上講的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：法案審查跟預算審查。"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，預算審查一回事啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：法案審查有啊！"],["羅委員智強：我先跟你講嘛！至少本人發現其他委員會沒有桌上型麥克風，也沒有影響到議事跟詢答的模式。第四個、我要跟你講，很簡單啦！設個總開關而已嘛！也不是……今天說真的，國民黨是一直很客氣啦，你們每次按著麥克風，主席……就要在那邊吵半天，你們真的有聽主席裁示說主席准發言才發言嗎？沒有啦！我跟你講，自己上來這邊台上講話，我覺得清清楚楚，主席就可以指定誰上來啊！兩支麥克風都在，開個總開關，也沒把麥克風拆掉，也歡迎今天黨團協商來借302，302總開關開了，大家就可以在那邊討論啦，用桌上麥克風，預算審查需要，一樣麥克風總開關一開，一樣可以討論啦！所以換言之沒有你們講的那個樣子，只是今天鑑於過去我們這將近3個月來，我看到司法法制委員會獨樹一幟，跟其他委員會完全不相同的作法，你講無線麥克風可以啊，無線麥克風一樣比照大家有，我們也有啊，但別的委員會桌上型麥克風平常是沒有的，我們也就設個靜音總開關而已，很簡單，就是讓我們的議事可以更順暢，否則說真的，我直接講我承認好不好？鍾委員，我直接承認啦，我覺得我們的柯總召每天按著那個麥克風心海羅盤，我真的有點受不了啦！不是完全不讓他心海羅盤啦，到上面那個台上一樣繼續心海羅盤沒關係，所有人看過這一段時間的直播，都是我們總召多少時間按著麥克風不放啊？所以拜託，讓我們總召能夠有一個莊嚴的心海羅盤發表地，所以可以到上面台上去講啦，所以我的主張還是很簡單，就是開一個總開關，平常我們在委員會審案的時候、沒有需要的時候，要上來就上這個質詢台跟備詢台；有需要的時候，黨團協商要借302，我覺得很好啊！桌上型麥克風就可以打開來讓大家討論，沒有那麼了不起啦！"],["主席：謝謝，沈委員。"],["沈委員發惠：主席，這個案子看起來是沒什麼啦，只是我是這樣建議大家，如果麥克風這種問題弄到等一下要表決，在司法法制委員會說實在是滿難看的，其實剛才羅智強委員所講的，因為你可能去別的委員會都是只有去發言，發言完之後每個委員會都還有很多討論，他們沒有桌上型麥克風很麻煩，每天的臨時提案，這個要講話、那個要請行政機關說明，麥克風傳來傳去，並不是每一個委員自己都有一支，傳來傳去耶！我們現在司法及法制委員會有設置桌上型麥克風，這基本上是一個進步，使我認為每一個委員會都應該要設桌上型麥克風，便於國會議員在這裡發言。不過現在談的是靜音裝置，我就覺得說像這樣子的問題，其實整個議事的過程裡面，剛才羅智強委員說我很受不了你們這樣一直發言，但是我跟你講，作為多數黨，因為你們表決會贏，所以你們就應該要忍受少數黨在整個審查過程中，所有在議事規則手段之下的杯葛，我覺得這個是天經地義的，這是民權初步，這個也不到議事規則的程度。這個東西你說做成決議，這個是我們立法院自己的規定，我們立法院議場安全維護管理要點第七條，它就明定會議時委員不得攜帶麥克風……進入會場。但是我們每次院會，國民黨團就是……到目前為止只有國民黨團帶麥克風進去議會，自從這條規定定了以後，只有國民黨團……國民黨還曾經團跑到民進黨黨團來，因為我們委員看不下去，去把你們麥克風偷搬回黨團，還去告我們民進黨的委員說偷你們的麥克風，所以連明定的規定……如果國民黨團以後，傅總召在這裡可以代表國民黨在這裡宣示說以後我發誓我國民黨改邪歸正，以後絕對不會再自己帶麥克風進去議場，那我覺得我們就來規範所有每個委員會的麥克風怎麼使用，裝一個靜音裝置不是說什麼多大的問題，我只是覺得在這裡表決這個，我認為不妥啦！難看啦！好像我在這邊如果提個提案，說我在司法及法制委員會，有的委員發言的音量實在是大到我受不了，所以我們要設置一個裝置，如果委員講話聲量超過多少分貝就自動斷電，那不是很好笑嗎？我如果在那邊講說我再提一個案，請我們委員不要在委員會裡面隨地吐痰，那也不是很好笑嗎？所以我是覺得說這種案子，我們不要這種案子還進入表決，我們大家談一談、撤掉，再來……你們要表決也可以啦，但是很難看而已。"],["傅委員崐萁：主席，剛剛各位講的我都同意啦！但是難得沈發惠委員說要有次序，今天我們很難得，民進黨立委嘴裡講出議場要有次序，真的很難得啊！民進黨立委終於講出要有次序，這不容易啊！我們就是因為要有次序，所以才提了這個臨時提案，我要特別表達從第4屆、第5屆、第6屆、第7屆、第8屆立委，民進黨連鐵鍊都拿進來了，飛天遁地什麼都有啦！還有把所有立委的椅子都堆起來，然後把每一個門都鎖上，我都親眼看到堆在那裡……"],["沈委員發惠：上一屆是國民黨……"],["傅委員崐萁：你看到沒有？你在講話，人家都沒有插你的嘴！對不對？一個基本的尊重嘛，有嗎？所以我要特別強調，這一屆議場要怎麼樣做次序維護，剛剛沈發惠委員講得很好，我們第一次朝野協商訂定不能帶東西進來，訂了以後也沒有人再帶進來了，我不曉得現在concern什麼東西，所以當時在這裡講說麥克風不能拿進議場，從此就沒有人再拿了，也都照大家的協議完成。我要特別強調一個，如果今天可以因為怎麼樣就不要有次序，那以後院會質詢就不是30分鐘、15分鐘了，我講到我高興再下來，院會質詢可以問3個小時、5個小時嗎？不是充分表達嗎？當然要有一個次序嘛，所以我要特別強調，這個會期到現在，經過協商以後，國民黨完全照協商規則走，我要特別強調這個，是不是我們就……"],["主席：因為兩邊完全沒有共識，那就直接表決。"],["吳委員思瑤：沒有啊……"],["主席：不是，你再講還是沒有共識啊，你們剛剛這麼多人講了，再講還是沒共識嘛。"],["吳委員思瑤：沒有、沒有，我都還沒說，你讓傅總召先講，我比他早舉手耶！"],["沈委員發惠：他還沒有講過。"],["主席：不是，因為兩邊沒有共識，大家就發洩情緒而已啊！"],["吳委員思瑤：沒有、沒有，我連發言都……"],["沈委員發惠：讓大家對案子表示意見，這是最基本的嘛。"],["莊委員瑞雄：主席要有耐性，當召委真的要有耐性。"],["沈委員發惠：讓我們委員針對這個案子表達意見，這是基本的嘛，每個人至少表達一次，對不對？"],["吳委員思瑤：我連發言都不行嗎？"],["主席：如果是這樣，吳委員你可不可以趕快總結？不要再一直重複同一個議題了，我們不要耽誤其他委員的時間。"],["吳委員思瑤：我覺得在司法及法制委員會最大的問題是，永遠要閹割別人講話的權利，現在連麥克風都要消音，這件事情茲事體大，它涉及的才是不折不扣的國會尊嚴，大家都看過英國國會開會吧？英國國會上下議會，我們講下議會，議員坐著，非常近的距離，他們可以針對議案激烈地進行爭執，彼此大聲地呼喊、對話，那是英國的民主，民主是什麼？就是大家可以講他想講的話，在國會殿堂表達他的主張，我真的很難以置信。原本之前羅智強委員似乎有要提一個案，說要沒收麥克風，後來好像是沒有提，還是沒有討論到，那今天轉了一個彎，就是麥克風還是可以設在這裡，因為我想羅委員也知道，這個辦公室除了平常我們司法及法制委員會開會之外，也會有朝野協商或其他會議要使用，所以換湯不換藥，今天的提案內容改為把它消音，但是任何一個議事的進行，都是考驗主席是否公正處理，像我剛剛也要嚴正地抗議啊，我明明比傅總召還要早舉手，我跟沈發惠委員一起舉手的時候，您就會略過，然後讓傅總召先發言。如果我要抗議您剛剛的主持不公，我唯一的方法也是按下麥克風向你現場抗議，但是我隱忍，所以主席是一個議事運作能不能夠維持秩序，讓大家都能夠不去動氣，不要有情緒的那個最重要的關鍵人物，叫做會議的主席。","好，你今天要設一個消音器，請問什麼時候、誰可以決定消音？這樣子的權限，就是把國會委員發聲的權利給消音、給沒收，這件事情茲事體大，這是臺灣、中華民國國會非常嚴肅的課題，可以因為委員的不耐，委員不喜歡聽誰的心海羅盤就消音？我不認為柯總召說的事情不值得其他委員去借鏡，那是他三十多年國會的歷練。大家都要坐在這裡去自我內化自己的修養，民主就是不同的意見，你必須遵守，必須聆聽。等一下，主席，我還在發言，可以請您坐下來嗎？剛剛前面的委員也都發言很長，好嗎？"],["主席：我站著聽你講，好不好？"],["吳委員思瑤：我怕您腿痠啦，好不好？"],["主席：好，你繼續。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以主席是一個主持議事的重要靈魂人物，而且我更要說，今天在這個會議室，桌上的這一臺麥克風，它所代表的意義，不只是坐在這裡的國會議員他所行使的民意，更重要的是，這個麥克風關係到議事人員在後續的文字紀錄，它可以被錄音，能夠清楚地、精確地記錄。如果那場會議當中有什麼樣的法案、文字或是預算的數字聽不清楚，他可以recall，他可以再去聽，確保所有的議事紀錄是精準無誤的，讓每一個人的發言都是精準呈現的。"],["羅委員智強：我來示範一下干擾好不好？我來示範啦，我示範干擾，真的，我來示範干擾。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以它的目的正是讓議事人員能夠來做紀錄。"],["羅委員智強：我覺得這個麥克風放在桌上的型式，在這邊就可以好好地掌握了。"],["吳委員思瑤：第二個，主席，現在就要考驗主席主持的功力了。"],["羅委員智強：反正對方講話，我也講話，聲音就吵成一團。"],["吳委員思瑤：現在就要考驗主席主持的功力了。"],["羅委員智強：然後不管柯建銘講話、莊瑞雄講話，很多人講話，大家吵成一團，然後所有的麥克風大家全部都打開來。來，思銘兄，我幫你按一下，你也講個話。"],["吳委員思瑤：現在就要考驗會議的靈魂人物，主席主持的功力了。"],["羅委員智強：大家一起講話嘛，對不對？然後我們現在講到海枯石爛、天荒地老，各自表述……"],["吳委員思瑤：吳宗憲召委，沒有主持的功力嗎？"],["林委員思銘：議事規則，有秩序的發言……"],["羅委員智強：比方說臨時提案第1案。"],["吳委員思瑤：現在這一段發言是誰在干擾發言？現在正是在考驗主席主持的功力，沒有關係，主席您要踐踏您的職權，我沒有異議。主席，這是我發言的時間，請網路上廣大的……"],["羅委員智強：法務部今年4月24日跟5月2日，就「如何簡化偵查、審判訴訟程序與書類制作」議題，向本委員會提報，藉由「110到112年三年期之檢察機關AI智慧輔助系統」建置，可利用AI系統1.生成酒駕類型書類初稿；2.製作詐欺案件被害人……"],["主席：OK，好了，結束喔。"],["吳委員思瑤：我還在進行發言，好嗎？"],["主席：沒有，先等一下，大家都先等一下。"],["羅委員智強：我就是示範一下……"],["主席：大家都先冷靜一下。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，你示範完了，可以讓我繼續發言嗎？我沒有動怒，我保持風度喔。"],["主席：大家先冷靜一下。"],["吳委員思瑤：主席，這是考驗主席的主持能耐，現在是誰在干擾本席的發言？現在是誰在……"],["羅委員智強：示範……"],["主席：各位委員，我們現在先冷靜一下。"],["吳委員思瑤：主席，這是要考驗主席主持的功力，我剛剛還沒有論述完，好嗎？"],["主席：對啦，我就說我們現在都冷靜一下。"],["吳委員思瑤：主席，我還在發言中，我還在發言中，吳宗憲主席，這是考驗您主持的功力。"],["羅委員智強：召開公聽會，有學者專家……"],["主席：吳委員……"],["吳委員思瑤：那我可以繼續嗎？"],["主席：等一下。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，那我可以繼續嗎？"],["主席：我跟你講。"],["吳委員思瑤：我還在發言中。"],["主席：我們再講一次啦。"],["吳委員思瑤：我還在發言中。"],["主席：我們會議中是不是說，當有人在發言的時候……"],["吳委員思瑤：我還在發言，是。"],["主席：其他人不要按麥克風來插嘴，至少我們先這樣好不好？"],["吳委員思瑤：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以、可以、可以。"],["主席：我順便跟吳思瑤委員說明一件事情。"],["吳委員思瑤：是。"],["主席：並沒有所謂的什麼先讓傅總召講，你再講，我跟你講，我儘量，因為雙方、正反兩方……"],["吳委員思瑤：好啦，沒關係。"],["主席：一個講完，再換一個。"],["吳委員思瑤：好。"],["主席：我跟你講，一個講完，再換一個，我覺得我的做法是這樣。"],["莊委員瑞雄：每次主席到最後就要拼大聲。"],["主席：不是拼大聲啦，因為你們每個人都要講，我要比麥克風更大聲來告訴大家。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不是要拼大聲，你的麥克風就拿掉，你那個叫做噪音啦！"],["主席：我覺得很簡單，就是一邊講完，讓另外一邊也講。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，沒關係，好，我接受。"],["主席：這樣是公平。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我接受主席的裁示。"],["主席：不是說單純一定要沈委員完就是吳委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：那我可以繼續嗎？好，我接受您的裁示。"],["莊委員瑞雄：小聲一點，小聲一點啦，吵死了！"],["主席：我是要跟吳委員說明你剛剛心中的疑問。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，calm down, please calm down！"],["羅委員智強：主席在主持，不就是你們拿著麥克風在干擾嗎？"],["吳委員思瑤：好，主席，我還在發言當中，我繼續發言喔！所以我說我們桌上的這一個……"],["莊委員瑞雄：主席不是在主持啦，他是在跟其他委員發飆，這就不對嘛。"],["主席：你們到底幾個人要用麥克風講話？"],["羅委員智強：很抱歉，我不能認同喔！"],["主席：你們從剛剛到現在……"],["羅委員智強：我還是要用麥克風來繼續講，不管你們誰在講……"],["主席：我希望一個人按麥克風就好。"],["羅委員智強：因為很方便啊！我忍不住啊！"],["莊委員瑞雄：繼續……"],["羅委員智強：像柯建銘跟吳思瑤都忍不住經常按啊！"],["主席：一個人拿麥克風講話就好了，羅委員也先……"],["羅委員智強：對不對？我們繼續按著麥克風，那不用結束了嘛！非常好。"],["主席：好，那個……"],["吳委員思瑤：我繼續發言。"],["羅委員智強：吳思瑤站上去，我就不按了。"],["主席：現在是吳思瑤委員發言，請大家都不要開麥克風，我們讓吳委員發言。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我發言。所以這一臺麥克風在桌上，它實際上是方便我們的議事人員能夠精準記錄任何一個預算數字跟法條文字的討論過程，它必須精準呈現，所以這個收音是有必要的。它是一個系統，是方便議事人員工作的功能之一。功能之二，也是讓線上所有的人一起聆聽，現在透明公開對於國會開會的議事程序是必要的，所以要讓國會能夠真正地透明公開，有的時候如果沒有透過麥克風的發言，在收音的系統、在網路直播的呈現上，完全沒有辦法聽見委員在爭執的內容、議案的討論是什麼。所以如果要踐行國會的透明公開，我們需要這一個重要的麥克風，它是協助每一個民意代表、國會議員發聲，也是最重要的聲音、民主、論述、辯論的武器，不可以這樣來沒收，它不是只是一個形而下的麥克風，它是形而上的，國會議員基於民意質詢、職權的行使，所以我要跟主席……","我個人是完全沒有辦法接受這樣的提案，基於我們議事紀錄的必要，基於對於國會透明公開的必要，更基於確保每一個國會議員的職責，履行監督、質詢的必要。更重要的我要說，今天羅智強委員的這個提案，它是涉及一個國會議員的自律，很好，委員是不是能夠做到自律，我們可以交換意見、彼此約束，但是如果今天羅智強委員在司法法制委會提出這樣一個臨時提案，那我要問，同樣是關乎國會議員的自律，也就是民進黨提出的國會改革方案的議事規則、me too的條款，國民黨不給我們審查，那是攸關國會議員的自律，為什麼民進黨提的國會改革方案議事規則裡面，有關保密、洩密的相關刑責、相關的自律行為，國民黨不讓我們半個條文進入實質討論？今天就提案論提案，羅智強委員的提案是要求國會議員的自律，我支持自律可以討論，但是為什麼你提的這個要沒收麥克風消音裝置的提案，可以在這裡被討論？但是民進黨的國會改革方案，攸關權責相符的國會議員的自律，半個條文都不讓我們審查？這就是現在這個失靈、失序的國會最嚴肅的議題，如果今天要討論這個提案，要透過表決的話，那是不是也讓民主進步黨的職權行使法、議事規則，乃至於立法委員行為法，同樣都可以在這裡，像現在一樣，大家輪流站上發言臺去表述他的意見，透過討論匯聚共識，如果真的不行，要表決，也要經過這個對人民、對社會論述的過程。","主席現在還在講手機，所以我可以繼續說，這樣一個提案，萬萬不可，這一個麥克風，它不是一個形體物體的麥克風，它代表的是113個國會議員行使憲法賦予的國會職權，所以我反對這樣的議案，我也認為不應當進入表決，大家不需要……自律的行為如果這樣，請讓我們審查我們的國會改革的立法委員行為法跟議事規則，同樣都在討論國會議員的自律行為，好嗎？"],["主席：我覺得既然雙方的認知差那麼遠，我就直接進行表決好了，而且我覺得……沒有，我跟你講，我這邊決議直接進行表決……"],["鍾委員佳濱：修正動議……"],["主席：你要提什麼修正動議？"],["鍾委員佳濱：修正文字的動議啊！怎麼不可以？"],["莊委員瑞雄：怎麼會是你說要表決就表決呢？"],["鍾委員佳濱：修正動議可以提出來啊！"],["主席：不是啦！我跟你講啦！既然大家覺得說主持不公嘛！對不對？我解釋你們又聽不進去，那就直接表決吧！這樣最清楚嘛！少數服從多數啊！大家就來表決啊！那我就依照議事規則進行表決。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你要停止討論的時候要先跟人家說一下，不是你主席說要怎樣就不給人家說……"],["謝委員龍介：主席……"],["莊委員瑞雄：人家謝龍介還沒說耶！人家不做布袋戲……如果我在講話，謝龍介拿布袋戲出來演，我一定停下來給你拍手，這麼厲害！"],["謝委員龍介：小金剛、小金剛，你實在好厲害！","主席，我對於會議的一個建議，因為這個案當然也不是敏感啦！那議事規則的過程，包括國會自律，每個議場都一樣，全國大小議會都一樣，但是也都各有道理，應該先休息，其實讓提案人跟他們召集人，我認為還有協商的空間，大家可以緩一下，為什麼？因為這兩個發言臺不是可以消音嗎？對不對？這兩個發言臺是可以消音的嘛！主席上面有一個消音器，所以是不是大家協商一下，也許可以觀察，也許可以有另外的作為，緩一下。剛剛提案人也願意……大家可以就這個國會自主裡面……其實言論自由當然很重要，可是這兩個多月來，民進黨確實干擾的次數比較多，我在這裡看得很清楚，民進黨少數干擾多數的比較多，所以我建議先休息5分鐘，讓他們去協商。"],["主席：有關這部分，我這邊先宣告一下，今天不是說我講話大聲，因為沒辦法，我不喊大聲，大家聽不到我在講什麼，大家一團亂，比國小班會還不如啦！請大家回去研讀立法委員行為法，你在開會的時候，你就要服從主席的約制嘛！但沒有人甩我啊！"],["莊委員瑞雄：因為你亂主持啊！"],["主席：不用講那麼多，今天如果我有違反任何議事規定的話，那你們該怎麼處理就怎麼處理，今天主席主持對或不對，不是你莊瑞雄一個人講就算啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：你講到我，我要發言了。"],["主席：不用，不需要，現在休息。","休息（11時56分）","繼續開會（12時）"],["主席：我們現在開始開會。上午會議時間進行至所有登記發言委員詢答完畢為止。強哥是要補充？"],["羅委員智強：首先，剛剛我們跟鍾佳濱委員稍微聊了一下，我覺得也認同啦！很多我們國會議事的討論，大家都在進行當中，也可以做調整嘛！一旦形成新的默契跟共識，大家就執行，不一定要做設備端的調整。我舉個例子，剛剛你們一直在談到院會的時候，國民黨拿麥克風，我就被做新聞的那個，我想如果你們有看到，我當天就道歉了，而且我就承諾我再也不會拿麥克風，因為跟各位坦白講，我並不知道那個規定，所以我願意認錯，然後願意改進，後來國民黨再也沒有拿麥克風進到院會，這一點我想要澄清一下。","但是我覺得這就是一個好的範示嘛！把規矩訂立之後，有的就是透過大家的協商默契，來改變我們接下來的議場文化，因為剛剛佳濱召委說還是讓大家用自律的方式，我覺得這一點我能接受啦！我也認同。所以換言之，我也是希望經過這個提案，以後大家桌上型的這個麥克風，你要你要講可以，先經過主席同意啦！先舉個手說：「主席，我要發言。」主席說yes之後你再去按這個麥克風，如果是這樣經過主席同意的話，大家都能夠自我約束，我覺得沒有問題啊！但是如果不能夠自我約束，大家如果還是像過去這三個月，有忍不住的衝動想按這個麥克風，到時候再來提這個臨時提案，也來得及嘛！所以這一點我覺得佳濱委員跟我提的意見，我覺得我能接受啦！所以今天我就是把我的那個提案延後，先往後延後，但不限期延後，也許我們的文化就建立了嘛！那也拜託我們所有的委員，包括我自己，主席沒有裁示之前，不要按這個麥克風，讓主席方便來去做議事上的主持跟進行，那我就先把我的案子撤回、延後。以上。"],["主席：謝謝，撤回，是不是？延後，暫不處理，OK。","好，第二案的部分經過各位委員協商溝通後，臨時提案第二案就暫不處理。","我們回過頭處理臨時提案的第一案，請問修正文字後的提案第一案，各位有拿到了吧？請問就這個修正後文字有無異議？好，沒有異議的話，臨時提案第一案就依照修正後文字通過。","接下來我們請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-22","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","羅智強","陳俊宇","謝龍介","傅崐萁","林思銘","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","蔡易餘","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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00:00:09,858\n主席謝謝請那個次長委員好是我想次長依照相關的赦免法的規定那個未來赦免那你是呈總統之令然後去做相關的研議嘛有法務部來做研議嘛對不對\n\n2\n00:00:30,078 --> 00:00:50,963\n我想依照我們過去中華民國有8次的特赦記錄剛才那個莊惠雄委員他也有乳裂出來了那我想我不依贅述了但是我們看到這個8次的一個特赦有蔣中正總統有李登輝總統陳水扁自己本身這個擔任總統也有兩度的特赦\n\n3\n00:00:54,904 --> 00:01:13,153\n那蔡英文總統也這個有兩次的特色一個是針對不農族的原住民獵人王光祿第二次就是針對那個韓玉萍少將以及他的隨從官分別予以這個特色那這些特色案我們詳細去予以去歸類\n\n4\n00:01:15,031 --> 00:01:17,794\n大概就是有政治犯有叛亂罪為了透過特赦來達成一個和解也有因為立下戰功也有因為價值理念衝突而處罰不勝處罰\n\n5\n00:01:34,389 --> 00:01:44,315\n也有因為族群、宗教信仰的不同而處罰也有因為秦清法眾判決量刑不符社會期待而予以特赦\n\n6\n00:01:45,970 --> 00:02:04,104\n那我現在想請問次長那陳水扁前總統他因為貪污案被判刑20年那這個龍潭購地案判刑那麼重那你認為以特赦的理由符合我們前面幾次的特赦的理由嗎?\n\n7\n00:02:05,609 --> 00:02:15,402\n根文報告因為我一直強調到目前為止法務部還沒有收到正式的特赦令的總統的指示嘛那我們沒有辦法說先做預測那另外\n\n8\n00:02:17,326 --> 00:02:41,245\n誰該特赦誰不該特赦憲法規定他是總統的特別權利我也沒有辦法預判市長但是我想在這邊因為未來你會乘他的命做原意所以到底總統我們現在就很好奇這個總統為什麼要去特赦陳水扁總統其實我在想最主要的原因可能就基於說他是前總統他是民進黨的創黨大佬\n\n9\n00:02:46,281 --> 00:03:13,376\n說蔡總統就在這個下任前就想要給他一個特赦我想基本上給蔡總統的特赦權我們予以尊重我想社會自有公平但在這次我們大家非常引起社會大家非常大的一個疑慮就是認為說這一次的特赦案的範圍就僅限於龍潭購地案以及買官案\n\n10\n00:03:14,136 --> 00:03:38,555\n另外四個正在停審中的二次經改、國泰病釋滑等四個案件不在範圍內所以他的特赦的正當性備受質疑也就是說過去特赦的對象是他已經沒有背負任何的司法案件了他已經沒有任何的司法案件正在法院審理中了\n\n11\n00:03:39,275 --> 00:03:54,708\n但是陳水扁總統前總統這個案件他如果這個案件特赦但是他身上還仍然背負四個案件還沒有判決定言所以這樣的情況之下總統要予以特赦嗎法務部您的看法您認為這樣子\n\n12\n00:04:00,461 --> 00:04:27,807\n有正當性嗎?一個人還背負四個案子竟然總統對他已經判決確定的其中一個案子你要予以特赦?站在法務部你是追求公平正義的一個立場你認為對於這樣的一個犯罪人、罪犯你認為給他特赦對得起我們這個社會對得起這個國家對得起被判刑確定的人民嗎?\n\n13\n00:04:30,741 --> 00:04:59,473\n各位報告這個問題剛剛如同我剛剛所回覆委員的特赦它還是總統的特權權利好啦次長我想我也不為難你啦其實我很想告訴民進黨的這個的朋友們在這個四個案件還沒有判決定讞前蔡總統您要去特赦陳水扁真的不服社會的期待啦我們尊重你的特赦權但是你要行使特赦權你真的要考慮清楚它的正當性在哪裡啦\n\n14\n00:05:00,615 --> 00:05:28,371\n那其實我個人建議啊如果蔡總統或者未來的賴清德總統你們真的那麼想要去特赦陳水扁的話您是不是等到他這四個案子第一宴之後你再一併全部給他特赦嘛這樣不是更好嗎就基於他是前總統你要尊重他我想我們沒有意見但是在四個案件還沒有判決第一宴前您要去特赦他\n\n15\n00:05:30,620 --> 00:05:54,742\n這個真的從法的立場來看真的很站不住腳啦很站不住腳所以我也希望法務部還有司法院秘書長我不要欺騙你們啦現在停審的四個案如果您想要讓陳水扁趕快去獲得特赦這四個停審的案件盡快恢復審理啦\n\n16\n00:05:55,748 --> 00:06:04,183\n不要再遮遮掩掩了我剛才謝龍介這個委員講的啊你那追溯權時效可能都會快快那個消滅了趕快恢復審判嘛\n\n17\n00:06:09,546 --> 00:06:34,716\n陳水扁總統你就出來面對嘛你這個停審的原因啊剛才我們的總召副分席委員也講得非常清楚完全不符合相關停審的規定把外就醫還能夠趴趴照啊所以這個完全大家都覺得這個根本不是在實踐司法正義啊而是讓一個人享有特權\n\n18\n00:06:36,041 --> 00:07:01,361\n所以我們是希望說如果說真的要特赦他這我的建議陳水扁總統趕快就你的四個案件有罪無罪當然還沒有確定前不敢講但是你面對司法的審理趕快把這四個案件趕快來做出判決的確定定言之後我才呼籲我們不管是未來的賴清德總統\n\n19\n00:07:02,202 --> 00:07:22,584\n您才來決定要不要給予特赦我想這個正當性可能會比較夠了市長您同意我的看法嗎我尊重委員的決定也尊重總統的職權民主黨針對這個停審的原因啊顯然我們看起來就已經消滅了嘛司法院是不是盡速的通知他趕快來重啟審判啊\n\n20\n00:07:31,965 --> 00:07:45,459\n秘書長這不是個案啦我想大家都明眼人都看得很清楚啦您本身也是擔任過法官法學素養一定非常的深厚嘛\n\n21\n00:07:46,687 --> 00:07:58,372\n您認為這個個案您個人判斷啊您看到他這個啪啪照啊這個還符合保外就醫的要件嗎這種案件法官針對這個個案難道還不趕快來重啓審判嗎司法院沒有一個立場嗎司法行政齁這個你們都可以裁量的嘛你們就是完全就是等於說是完全就是齁現在已經把司法正義喔拋在腦後了啦\n\n22\n00:08:16,508 --> 00:08:24,369\n只因為他是陳隨便兼總統所以這個不好啦來我最後一個問題再問你一下\n\n23\n00:08:26,820 --> 00:08:52,710\n我想我們除了這個特色的問題以外我們這個有關於全國大減刑我們看一下在1971年蔣中正總統有做全國大減刑1975年嚴家幹總統也有那麼1988年及1991年李登輝總統也有做大減刑2007年曾隨便總統任內也有執行所以歷年來也有5次的減刑\n\n24\n00:08:54,464 --> 00:08:56,166\n以最近一次的2007年為例,複合減刑的資格共有25000人,當時有10943人出獄。\n\n25\n00:09:09,519 --> 00:09:24,351\n請問當時減刑的原因跟理由是什麼你知道嗎因為它歷史至少有五次的減刑每一次的減刑它的條件跟理由都不一樣您大概可以敘述一下你還記得嗎我請問一下其中一個原因會不會是因為監鎖人滿為患\n\n26\n00:09:33,506 --> 00:09:51,702\n這是一個附屬的一個效應但他不會因為他拿來做減刑的事由另外一個是不是總統他大赦天下他要去這個等於說寬幼這些犯罪者希望他能夠趕快重新做人以起自新\n\n27\n00:09:53,164 --> 00:10:11,286\n所以給予減薪的寬點我們的社民法法上大赦、特赦、減薪、復權都有這樣的一個效應就是總統他特別的權力會產生剛剛委員你所提的效應是嗎?所以前面幾任總統五次減薪我想其實主要的理由應該就是他給予這些寬點\n\n28\n00:10:12,287 --> 00:10:32,345\n他就是展現他的一個讓罪犯能夠有自新機會趕快回復到社會來重新做人一起自新所以我想問你這一次賴金德總統上任有可能實行全國性的減刑嗎\n\n29\n00:10:33,353 --> 00:10:35,155\n法務部也沒有接受這方面的訊息\n\n30\n00:10:48,933 --> 00:11:12,499\n主席我再問一個問題那個是因為你剛才一直提到你到現在為止都沒有收到我們行政院總統這個叫行政院下令給你們法務部說趕快做相關這個赦免的研議那請問你如果現在蔡總統的任期只剩下五天左右五天而已那如果他在這幾天\n\n31\n00:11:14,795 --> 00:11:35,666\n下令說請你趕快做研議,法務部趕快做研議,你作業上來得及嗎?跟委員報告,涉免法規定他是得交研議啦,他也可以不交,他也可以自己就做涉免的決定,他不見得要交研議。他自己直接做就...對,他涉免法規定是得交本部來研議,得,他不見得會交研議。\n\n32\n00:11:36,417 --> 00:12:01,294\n那如果他交給你們研議,你們來得及作業嗎?各位報告,我剛剛有說事實上法務部就社會上爭議的問題我們事實上都有做一些法制上的研議或法制上的處理啦也不是為了這個個案所以你們有在做預作的研議,著手做研議的?做法律上的討論,也不是就這個個案做研議法律上的討論我們當然會做一些先期的處理,當然會任何一個法律上的爭議我們都會所以你會來得及就對了啦?\n\n33\n00:12:02,611 --> 00:12:23,628\n假設我們先假設嘛如果說他就是希望你法務部因為他法務部一定要有個說法啊總統自己直接發布這個令這也蠻奇怪的啊不會叫你法務部直接做一個研議的方向給他嗎但法規規上法律上規定他是得啦不一定一定必須啦對不是因所以你們作業上來得及啦你就給我回答來得及吧\n\n34\n00:12:24,429 --> 00:12:24,749\n好,謝謝,以上。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7597\t9858\t主席謝謝請那個次長委員好是我想次長依照相關的赦免法的規定那個未來赦免那你是呈總統之令然後去做相關的研議嘛有法務部來做研議嘛對不對\n30078\t50963\t我想依照我們過去中華民國有8次的特赦記錄剛才那個莊惠雄委員他也有乳裂出來了那我想我不依贅述了但是我們看到這個8次的一個特赦有蔣中正總統有李登輝總統陳水扁自己本身這個擔任總統也有兩度的特赦\n54904\t73153\t那蔡英文總統也這個有兩次的特色一個是針對不農族的原住民獵人王光祿第二次就是針對那個韓玉萍少將以及他的隨從官分別予以這個特色那這些特色案我們詳細去予以去歸類\n75031\t77794\t大概就是有政治犯有叛亂罪為了透過特赦來達成一個和解也有因為立下戰功也有因為價值理念衝突而處罰不勝處罰\n94389\t104315\t也有因為族群、宗教信仰的不同而處罰也有因為秦清法眾判決量刑不符社會期待而予以特赦\n105970\t124104\t那我現在想請問次長那陳水扁前總統他因為貪污案被判刑20年那這個龍潭購地案判刑那麼重那你認為以特赦的理由符合我們前面幾次的特赦的理由嗎?\n125609\t135402\t根文報告因為我一直強調到目前為止法務部還沒有收到正式的特赦令的總統的指示嘛那我們沒有辦法說先做預測那另外\n137326\t161245\t誰該特赦 誰不該特赦 憲法規定他是總統的特別權利 我也沒有辦法預判市長 但是我想在這邊 因為未來你會乘他的命做原意所以到底總統 我們現在就很好奇 這個總統為什麼要去特赦陳水扁總統其實我在想 最主要的原因 可能就基於說他是前總統他是民進黨的創黨大佬\n166281\t193376\t說蔡總統就在這個下任前就想要給他一個特赦我想基本上給蔡總統的特赦權我們予以尊重我想社會自有公平但在這次我們大家非常引起社會大家非常大的一個疑慮就是認為說這一次的特赦案的範圍就僅限於龍潭購地案以及買官案\n194136\t218555\t另外四個正在停審中的二次經改、國泰病釋滑等四個案件不在範圍內所以他的特赦的正當性備受質疑也就是說過去特赦的對象是他已經沒有背負任何的司法案件了他已經沒有任何的司法案件正在法院審理中了\n219275\t234708\t但是陳水扁總統前總統這個案件他如果這個案件特赦但是他身上還仍然背負四個案件還沒有判決定言所以這樣的情況之下總統要予以特赦嗎法務部您的看法您認為這樣子\n240461\t267807\t有正當性嗎?一個人還背負四個案子竟然總統對他已經判決確定的其中一個案子你要予以特赦?站在法務部你是追求公平正義的一個立場你認為對於這樣的一個犯罪人、罪犯你認為給他特赦對得起我們這個社會對得起這個國家對得起被判刑確定的人民嗎?\n270741\t299473\t各位報告 這個問題剛剛 如同我剛剛所回覆委員的特赦它還是總統的特權權利好啦 次長 我想我也不為難你啦其實我很想告訴民進黨的這個的朋友們在這個四個案件還沒有判決定讞前蔡總統您要去特赦陳水扁真的不服社會的期待啦我們尊重你的特赦權但是你要行使特赦權你真的要考慮清楚它的正當性在哪裡啦\n300615\t328371\t那其實我個人建議啊如果蔡總統或者未來的賴清德總統你們真的那麼想要去特赦陳水扁的話您是不是等到他這四個案子第一宴之後你再一併全部給他特赦嘛這樣不是更好嗎就基於他是前總統你要尊重他我想我們沒有意見但是在四個案件還沒有判決第一宴前您要去特赦他\n330620\t354742\t這個真的從法的立場來看真的很站不住腳啦很站不住腳所以我也希望法務部還有司法院秘書長我不要欺騙你們啦現在停審的四個案如果您想要讓陳水扁趕快去獲得特赦這四個停審的案件盡快恢復審理啦\n355748\t364183\t不要再遮遮掩掩了我剛才謝龍介這個委員講的啊你那追溯權時效可能都會快快那個消滅了趕快恢復審判嘛\n369546\t394716\t陳水扁總統你就出來面對嘛你這個停審的原因啊剛才我們的總召副分席委員也講得非常清楚完全不符合相關停審的規定把外就醫還能夠趴趴照啊所以這個完全大家都覺得這個根本不是在實踐司法正義啊而是讓一個人享有特權\n396041\t421361\t所以我們是希望說如果說真的要特赦他這我的建議陳水扁總統趕快就你的四個案件有罪無罪當然還沒有確定前不敢講但是你面對司法的審理趕快把這四個案件趕快來做出判決的確定定言之後我才呼籲我們不管是未來的賴清德總統\n422202\t442584\t您才來決定要不要給予特赦我想這個正當性可能會比較夠了市長您同意我的看法嗎我尊重委員的決定也尊重總統的職權民主黨 針對這個停審的原因啊顯然我們看起來就已經消滅了嘛司法院是不是盡速的通知他趕快來重啟審判啊\n451965\t465459\t秘書長這不是個案啦我想大家都明眼人都看得很清楚啦您本身也是擔任過法官法學素養一定非常的深厚嘛\n466687\t478372\t您認為這個個案您個人判斷啊您看到他這個啪啪照啊這個還符合保外就醫的要件嗎這種案件法官針對這個個案難道還不趕快來重啓審判嗎司法院沒有一個立場嗎司法行政齁這個你們都可以裁量的嘛你們就是完全就是等於說是完全就是齁現在已經把司法正義喔拋在腦後了啦\n496508\t504369\t只因為他是陳隨便兼總統所以這個不好啦來我最後一個問題再問你一下\n506820\t532710\t我想我們除了這個特色的問題以外我們這個有關於全國大減刑我們看一下在1971年蔣中正總統有做全國大減刑1975年嚴家幹總統也有那麼1988年及1991年李登輝總統也有做大減刑2007年曾隨便總統任內也有執行所以歷年來也有5次的減刑\n534464\t536166\t以最近一次的2007年為例,複合減刑的資格共有25000人,當時有10943人出獄。\n549519\t564351\t請問當時減刑的原因跟理由是什麼你知道嗎因為它歷史至少有五次的減刑每一次的減刑它的條件跟理由都不一樣您大概可以敘述一下你還記得嗎我請問一下其中一個原因會不會是因為監鎖人滿為患\n573506\t591702\t這是一個附屬的一個效應但他不會因為他拿來做減刑的事由另外一個是不是總統他大赦天下他要去這個等於說寬幼這些犯罪者希望他能夠趕快重新做人以起自新\n593164\t611286\t所以給予減薪的寬點我們的社民法法上大赦、特赦、減薪、復權都有這樣的一個效應就是總統他特別的權力會產生剛剛委員你所提的效應是嗎?所以前面幾任總統五次減薪我想其實主要的理由應該就是他給予這些寬點\n612287\t632345\t他就是展現他的一個讓罪犯能夠有自新機會趕快回復到社會來重新做人一起自新所以我想問你這一次賴金德總統上任有可能實行全國性的減刑嗎\n633353\t635155\t法務部也沒有接受這方面的訊息\n648933\t672499\t主席我再問一個問題那個是因為你剛才一直提到你到現在為止都沒有收到我們行政院總統這個叫行政院下令給你們法務部說趕快做相關這個赦免的研議那請問你如果現在蔡總統的任期只剩下五天左右五天而已那如果他在這幾天\n674795\t695666\t下令說請你趕快做研議,法務部趕快做研議,你作業上來得及嗎?跟委員報告,涉免法規定他是得交研議啦,他也可以不交,他也可以自己就做涉免的決定,他不見得要交研議。他自己直接做就...對,他涉免法規定是得交本部來研議,得,他不見得會交研議。\n696417\t721294\t那如果他交給你們研議,你們來得及作業嗎?各位報告,我剛剛有說事實上法務部就社會上爭議的問題我們事實上都有做一些法制上的研議或法制上的處理啦也不是為了這個個案所以你們有在做預作的研議,著手做研議的?做法律上的討論,也不是就這個個案做研議法律上的討論我們當然會做一些先期的處理,當然會任何一個法律上的爭議我們都會所以你會來得及就對了啦?\n722611\t743628\t假設我們先假設嘛如果說他就是希望你法務部因為他法務部一定要有個說法啊總統自己直接發布這個令這也蠻奇怪的啊不會叫你法務部直接做一個研議的方向給他嗎但法規規上法律上規定他是得啦不一定一定必須啦對不是因所以你們作業上來得及啦你就給我回答來得及吧\n744429\t744749\t好,謝謝,以上。\n","txt":"主席謝謝請那個次長委員好是我想次長依照相關的赦免法的規定那個未來赦免那你是呈總統之令然後去做相關的研議嘛有法務部來做研議嘛對不對\n我想依照我們過去中華民國有8次的特赦記錄剛才那個莊惠雄委員他也有乳裂出來了那我想我不依贅述了但是我們看到這個8次的一個特赦有蔣中正總統有李登輝總統陳水扁自己本身這個擔任總統也有兩度的特赦\n那蔡英文總統也這個有兩次的特色一個是針對不農族的原住民獵人王光祿第二次就是針對那個韓玉萍少將以及他的隨從官分別予以這個特色那這些特色案我們詳細去予以去歸類\n大概就是有政治犯有叛亂罪為了透過特赦來達成一個和解也有因為立下戰功也有因為價值理念衝突而處罰不勝處罰\n也有因為族群、宗教信仰的不同而處罰也有因為秦清法眾判決量刑不符社會期待而予以特赦\n那我現在想請問次長那陳水扁前總統他因為貪污案被判刑20年那這個龍潭購地案判刑那麼重那你認為以特赦的理由符合我們前面幾次的特赦的理由嗎?\n根文報告因為我一直強調到目前為止法務部還沒有收到正式的特赦令的總統的指示嘛那我們沒有辦法說先做預測那另外\n誰該特赦 誰不該特赦 憲法規定他是總統的特別權利 我也沒有辦法預判市長 但是我想在這邊 因為未來你會乘他的命做原意所以到底總統 我們現在就很好奇 這個總統為什麼要去特赦陳水扁總統其實我在想 最主要的原因 可能就基於說他是前總統他是民進黨的創黨大佬\n說蔡總統就在這個下任前就想要給他一個特赦我想基本上給蔡總統的特赦權我們予以尊重我想社會自有公平但在這次我們大家非常引起社會大家非常大的一個疑慮就是認為說這一次的特赦案的範圍就僅限於龍潭購地案以及買官案\n另外四個正在停審中的二次經改、國泰病釋滑等四個案件不在範圍內所以他的特赦的正當性備受質疑也就是說過去特赦的對象是他已經沒有背負任何的司法案件了他已經沒有任何的司法案件正在法院審理中了\n但是陳水扁總統前總統這個案件他如果這個案件特赦但是他身上還仍然背負四個案件還沒有判決定言所以這樣的情況之下總統要予以特赦嗎法務部您的看法您認為這樣子\n有正當性嗎?一個人還背負四個案子竟然總統對他已經判決確定的其中一個案子你要予以特赦?站在法務部你是追求公平正義的一個立場你認為對於這樣的一個犯罪人、罪犯你認為給他特赦對得起我們這個社會對得起這個國家對得起被判刑確定的人民嗎?\n各位報告 這個問題剛剛 如同我剛剛所回覆委員的特赦它還是總統的特權權利好啦 次長 我想我也不為難你啦其實我很想告訴民進黨的這個的朋友們在這個四個案件還沒有判決定讞前蔡總統您要去特赦陳水扁真的不服社會的期待啦我們尊重你的特赦權但是你要行使特赦權你真的要考慮清楚它的正當性在哪裡啦\n那其實我個人建議啊如果蔡總統或者未來的賴清德總統你們真的那麼想要去特赦陳水扁的話您是不是等到他這四個案子第一宴之後你再一併全部給他特赦嘛這樣不是更好嗎就基於他是前總統你要尊重他我想我們沒有意見但是在四個案件還沒有判決第一宴前您要去特赦他\n這個真的從法的立場來看真的很站不住腳啦很站不住腳所以我也希望法務部還有司法院秘書長我不要欺騙你們啦現在停審的四個案如果您想要讓陳水扁趕快去獲得特赦這四個停審的案件盡快恢復審理啦\n不要再遮遮掩掩了我剛才謝龍介這個委員講的啊你那追溯權時效可能都會快快那個消滅了趕快恢復審判嘛\n陳水扁總統你就出來面對嘛你這個停審的原因啊剛才我們的總召副分席委員也講得非常清楚完全不符合相關停審的規定把外就醫還能夠趴趴照啊所以這個完全大家都覺得這個根本不是在實踐司法正義啊而是讓一個人享有特權\n所以我們是希望說如果說真的要特赦他這我的建議陳水扁總統趕快就你的四個案件有罪無罪當然還沒有確定前不敢講但是你面對司法的審理趕快把這四個案件趕快來做出判決的確定定言之後我才呼籲我們不管是未來的賴清德總統\n您才來決定要不要給予特赦我想這個正當性可能會比較夠了市長您同意我的看法嗎我尊重委員的決定也尊重總統的職權民主黨 針對這個停審的原因啊顯然我們看起來就已經消滅了嘛司法院是不是盡速的通知他趕快來重啟審判啊\n秘書長這不是個案啦我想大家都明眼人都看得很清楚啦您本身也是擔任過法官法學素養一定非常的深厚嘛\n您認為這個個案您個人判斷啊您看到他這個啪啪照啊這個還符合保外就醫的要件嗎這種案件法官針對這個個案難道還不趕快來重啓審判嗎司法院沒有一個立場嗎司法行政齁這個你們都可以裁量的嘛你們就是完全就是等於說是完全就是齁現在已經把司法正義喔拋在腦後了啦\n只因為他是陳隨便兼總統所以這個不好啦來我最後一個問題再問你一下\n我想我們除了這個特色的問題以外我們這個有關於全國大減刑我們看一下在1971年蔣中正總統有做全國大減刑1975年嚴家幹總統也有那麼1988年及1991年李登輝總統也有做大減刑2007年曾隨便總統任內也有執行所以歷年來也有5次的減刑\n以最近一次的2007年為例,複合減刑的資格共有25000人,當時有10943人出獄。\n請問當時減刑的原因跟理由是什麼你知道嗎因為它歷史至少有五次的減刑每一次的減刑它的條件跟理由都不一樣您大概可以敘述一下你還記得嗎我請問一下其中一個原因會不會是因為監鎖人滿為患\n這是一個附屬的一個效應但他不會因為他拿來做減刑的事由另外一個是不是總統他大赦天下他要去這個等於說寬幼這些犯罪者希望他能夠趕快重新做人以起自新\n所以給予減薪的寬點我們的社民法法上大赦、特赦、減薪、復權都有這樣的一個效應就是總統他特別的權力會產生剛剛委員你所提的效應是嗎?所以前面幾任總統五次減薪我想其實主要的理由應該就是他給予這些寬點\n他就是展現他的一個讓罪犯能夠有自新機會趕快回復到社會來重新做人一起自新所以我想問你這一次賴金德總統上任有可能實行全國性的減刑嗎\n法務部也沒有接受這方面的訊息\n主席我再問一個問題那個是因為你剛才一直提到你到現在為止都沒有收到我們行政院總統這個叫行政院下令給你們法務部說趕快做相關這個赦免的研議那請問你如果現在蔡總統的任期只剩下五天左右五天而已那如果他在這幾天\n下令說請你趕快做研議,法務部趕快做研議,你作業上來得及嗎?跟委員報告,涉免法規定他是得交研議啦,他也可以不交,他也可以自己就做涉免的決定,他不見得要交研議。他自己直接做就...對,他涉免法規定是得交本部來研議,得,他不見得會交研議。\n那如果他交給你們研議,你們來得及作業嗎?各位報告,我剛剛有說事實上法務部就社會上爭議的問題我們事實上都有做一些法制上的研議或法制上的處理啦也不是為了這個個案所以你們有在做預作的研議,著手做研議的?做法律上的討論,也不是就這個個案做研議法律上的討論我們當然會做一些先期的處理,當然會任何一個法律上的爭議我們都會所以你會來得及就對了啦?\n假設我們先假設嘛如果說他就是希望你法務部因為他法務部一定要有個說法啊總統自己直接發布這個令這也蠻奇怪的啊不會叫你法務部直接做一個研議的方向給他嗎但法規規上法律上規定他是得啦不一定一定必須啦對不是因所以你們作業上來得及啦你就給我回答來得及吧\n好,謝謝,以上。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.597 --> 00:09.858\n主席謝謝請那個次長委員好是我想次長依照相關的赦免法的規定那個未來赦免那你是呈總統之令然後去做相關的研議嘛有法務部來做研議嘛對不對\n\n00:30.078 --> 00:50.963\n我想依照我們過去中華民國有8次的特赦記錄剛才那個莊惠雄委員他也有乳裂出來了那我想我不依贅述了但是我們看到這個8次的一個特赦有蔣中正總統有李登輝總統陳水扁自己本身這個擔任總統也有兩度的特赦\n\n00:54.904 --> 01:13.153\n那蔡英文總統也這個有兩次的特色一個是針對不農族的原住民獵人王光祿第二次就是針對那個韓玉萍少將以及他的隨從官分別予以這個特色那這些特色案我們詳細去予以去歸類\n\n01:15.031 --> 01:17.794\n大概就是有政治犯有叛亂罪為了透過特赦來達成一個和解也有因為立下戰功也有因為價值理念衝突而處罰不勝處罰\n\n01:34.389 --> 01:44.315\n也有因為族群、宗教信仰的不同而處罰也有因為秦清法眾判決量刑不符社會期待而予以特赦\n\n01:45.970 --> 02:04.104\n那我現在想請問次長那陳水扁前總統他因為貪污案被判刑20年那這個龍潭購地案判刑那麼重那你認為以特赦的理由符合我們前面幾次的特赦的理由嗎?\n\n02:05.609 --> 02:15.402\n根文報告因為我一直強調到目前為止法務部還沒有收到正式的特赦令的總統的指示嘛那我們沒有辦法說先做預測那另外\n\n02:17.326 --> 02:41.245\n誰該特赦誰不該特赦憲法規定他是總統的特別權利我也沒有辦法預判市長但是我想在這邊因為未來你會乘他的命做原意所以到底總統我們現在就很好奇這個總統為什麼要去特赦陳水扁總統其實我在想最主要的原因可能就基於說他是前總統他是民進黨的創黨大佬\n\n02:46.281 --> 03:13.376\n說蔡總統就在這個下任前就想要給他一個特赦我想基本上給蔡總統的特赦權我們予以尊重我想社會自有公平但在這次我們大家非常引起社會大家非常大的一個疑慮就是認為說這一次的特赦案的範圍就僅限於龍潭購地案以及買官案\n\n03:14.136 --> 03:38.555\n另外四個正在停審中的二次經改、國泰病釋滑等四個案件不在範圍內所以他的特赦的正當性備受質疑也就是說過去特赦的對象是他已經沒有背負任何的司法案件了他已經沒有任何的司法案件正在法院審理中了\n\n03:39.275 --> 03:54.708\n但是陳水扁總統前總統這個案件他如果這個案件特赦但是他身上還仍然背負四個案件還沒有判決定言所以這樣的情況之下總統要予以特赦嗎法務部您的看法您認為這樣子\n\n04:00.461 --> 04:27.807\n有正當性嗎?一個人還背負四個案子竟然總統對他已經判決確定的其中一個案子你要予以特赦?站在法務部你是追求公平正義的一個立場你認為對於這樣的一個犯罪人、罪犯你認為給他特赦對得起我們這個社會對得起這個國家對得起被判刑確定的人民嗎?\n\n04:30.741 --> 04:59.473\n各位報告這個問題剛剛如同我剛剛所回覆委員的特赦它還是總統的特權權利好啦次長我想我也不為難你啦其實我很想告訴民進黨的這個的朋友們在這個四個案件還沒有判決定讞前蔡總統您要去特赦陳水扁真的不服社會的期待啦我們尊重你的特赦權但是你要行使特赦權你真的要考慮清楚它的正當性在哪裡啦\n\n05:00.615 --> 05:28.371\n那其實我個人建議啊如果蔡總統或者未來的賴清德總統你們真的那麼想要去特赦陳水扁的話您是不是等到他這四個案子第一宴之後你再一併全部給他特赦嘛這樣不是更好嗎就基於他是前總統你要尊重他我想我們沒有意見但是在四個案件還沒有判決第一宴前您要去特赦他\n\n05:30.620 --> 05:54.742\n這個真的從法的立場來看真的很站不住腳啦很站不住腳所以我也希望法務部還有司法院秘書長我不要欺騙你們啦現在停審的四個案如果您想要讓陳水扁趕快去獲得特赦這四個停審的案件盡快恢復審理啦\n\n05:55.748 --> 06:04.183\n不要再遮遮掩掩了我剛才謝龍介這個委員講的啊你那追溯權時效可能都會快快那個消滅了趕快恢復審判嘛\n\n06:09.546 --> 06:34.716\n陳水扁總統你就出來面對嘛你這個停審的原因啊剛才我們的總召副分席委員也講得非常清楚完全不符合相關停審的規定把外就醫還能夠趴趴照啊所以這個完全大家都覺得這個根本不是在實踐司法正義啊而是讓一個人享有特權\n\n06:36.041 --> 07:01.361\n所以我們是希望說如果說真的要特赦他這我的建議陳水扁總統趕快就你的四個案件有罪無罪當然還沒有確定前不敢講但是你面對司法的審理趕快把這四個案件趕快來做出判決的確定定言之後我才呼籲我們不管是未來的賴清德總統\n\n07:02.202 --> 07:22.584\n您才來決定要不要給予特赦我想這個正當性可能會比較夠了市長您同意我的看法嗎我尊重委員的決定也尊重總統的職權民主黨針對這個停審的原因啊顯然我們看起來就已經消滅了嘛司法院是不是盡速的通知他趕快來重啟審判啊\n\n07:31.965 --> 07:45.459\n秘書長這不是個案啦我想大家都明眼人都看得很清楚啦您本身也是擔任過法官法學素養一定非常的深厚嘛\n\n07:46.687 --> 07:58.372\n您認為這個個案您個人判斷啊您看到他這個啪啪照啊這個還符合保外就醫的要件嗎這種案件法官針對這個個案難道還不趕快來重啓審判嗎司法院沒有一個立場嗎司法行政齁這個你們都可以裁量的嘛你們就是完全就是等於說是完全就是齁現在已經把司法正義喔拋在腦後了啦\n\n08:16.508 --> 08:24.369\n只因為他是陳隨便兼總統所以這個不好啦來我最後一個問題再問你一下\n\n08:26.820 --> 08:52.710\n我想我們除了這個特色的問題以外我們這個有關於全國大減刑我們看一下在1971年蔣中正總統有做全國大減刑1975年嚴家幹總統也有那麼1988年及1991年李登輝總統也有做大減刑2007年曾隨便總統任內也有執行所以歷年來也有5次的減刑\n\n08:54.464 --> 08:56.166\n以最近一次的2007年為例,複合減刑的資格共有25000人,當時有10943人出獄。\n\n09:09.519 --> 09:24.351\n請問當時減刑的原因跟理由是什麼你知道嗎因為它歷史至少有五次的減刑每一次的減刑它的條件跟理由都不一樣您大概可以敘述一下你還記得嗎我請問一下其中一個原因會不會是因為監鎖人滿為患\n\n09:33.506 --> 09:51.702\n這是一個附屬的一個效應但他不會因為他拿來做減刑的事由另外一個是不是總統他大赦天下他要去這個等於說寬幼這些犯罪者希望他能夠趕快重新做人以起自新\n\n09:53.164 --> 10:11.286\n所以給予減薪的寬點我們的社民法法上大赦、特赦、減薪、復權都有這樣的一個效應就是總統他特別的權力會產生剛剛委員你所提的效應是嗎?所以前面幾任總統五次減薪我想其實主要的理由應該就是他給予這些寬點\n\n10:12.287 --> 10:32.345\n他就是展現他的一個讓罪犯能夠有自新機會趕快回復到社會來重新做人一起自新所以我想問你這一次賴金德總統上任有可能實行全國性的減刑嗎\n\n10:33.353 --> 10:35.155\n法務部也沒有接受這方面的訊息\n\n10:48.933 --> 11:12.499\n主席我再問一個問題那個是因為你剛才一直提到你到現在為止都沒有收到我們行政院總統這個叫行政院下令給你們法務部說趕快做相關這個赦免的研議那請問你如果現在蔡總統的任期只剩下五天左右五天而已那如果他在這幾天\n\n11:14.795 --> 11:35.666\n下令說請你趕快做研議,法務部趕快做研議,你作業上來得及嗎?跟委員報告,涉免法規定他是得交研議啦,他也可以不交,他也可以自己就做涉免的決定,他不見得要交研議。他自己直接做就...對,他涉免法規定是得交本部來研議,得,他不見得會交研議。\n\n11:36.417 --> 12:01.294\n那如果他交給你們研議,你們來得及作業嗎?各位報告,我剛剛有說事實上法務部就社會上爭議的問題我們事實上都有做一些法制上的研議或法制上的處理啦也不是為了這個個案所以你們有在做預作的研議,著手做研議的?做法律上的討論,也不是就這個個案做研議法律上的討論我們當然會做一些先期的處理,當然會任何一個法律上的爭議我們都會所以你會來得及就對了啦?\n\n12:02.611 --> 12:23.628\n假設我們先假設嘛如果說他就是希望你法務部因為他法務部一定要有個說法啊總統自己直接發布這個令這也蠻奇怪的啊不會叫你法務部直接做一個研議的方向給他嗎但法規規上法律上規定他是得啦不一定一定必須啦對不是因所以你們作業上來得及啦你就給我回答來得及吧\n\n12:24.429 --> 12:24.749\n好,謝謝,以上。\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.597,"end":9.858,"text":"主席謝謝請那個次長委員好是我想次長依照相關的赦免法的規定那個未來赦免那你是呈總統之令然後去做相關的研議嘛有法務部來做研議嘛對不對"},{"start":30.078,"end":50.963,"text":"我想依照我們過去中華民國有8次的特赦記錄剛才那個莊惠雄委員他也有乳裂出來了那我想我不依贅述了但是我們看到這個8次的一個特赦有蔣中正總統有李登輝總統陳水扁自己本身這個擔任總統也有兩度的特赦"},{"start":54.904,"end":73.153,"text":"那蔡英文總統也這個有兩次的特色一個是針對不農族的原住民獵人王光祿第二次就是針對那個韓玉萍少將以及他的隨從官分別予以這個特色那這些特色案我們詳細去予以去歸類"},{"start":75.031,"end":77.794,"text":"大概就是有政治犯有叛亂罪為了透過特赦來達成一個和解也有因為立下戰功也有因為價值理念衝突而處罰不勝處罰"},{"start":94.389,"end":104.315,"text":"也有因為族群、宗教信仰的不同而處罰也有因為秦清法眾判決量刑不符社會期待而予以特赦"},{"start":105.97,"end":124.104,"text":"那我現在想請問次長那陳水扁前總統他因為貪污案被判刑20年那這個龍潭購地案判刑那麼重那你認為以特赦的理由符合我們前面幾次的特赦的理由嗎?"},{"start":125.609,"end":135.402,"text":"根文報告因為我一直強調到目前為止法務部還沒有收到正式的特赦令的總統的指示嘛那我們沒有辦法說先做預測那另外"},{"start":137.326,"end":161.245,"text":"誰該特赦 誰不該特赦 憲法規定他是總統的特別權利 我也沒有辦法預判市長 但是我想在這邊 因為未來你會乘他的命做原意所以到底總統 我們現在就很好奇 這個總統為什麼要去特赦陳水扁總統其實我在想 最主要的原因 可能就基於說他是前總統他是民進黨的創黨大佬"},{"start":166.281,"end":193.376,"text":"說蔡總統就在這個下任前就想要給他一個特赦我想基本上給蔡總統的特赦權我們予以尊重我想社會自有公平但在這次我們大家非常引起社會大家非常大的一個疑慮就是認為說這一次的特赦案的範圍就僅限於龍潭購地案以及買官案"},{"start":194.136,"end":218.555,"text":"另外四個正在停審中的二次經改、國泰病釋滑等四個案件不在範圍內所以他的特赦的正當性備受質疑也就是說過去特赦的對象是他已經沒有背負任何的司法案件了他已經沒有任何的司法案件正在法院審理中了"},{"start":219.275,"end":234.708,"text":"但是陳水扁總統前總統這個案件他如果這個案件特赦但是他身上還仍然背負四個案件還沒有判決定言所以這樣的情況之下總統要予以特赦嗎法務部您的看法您認為這樣子"},{"start":240.461,"end":267.807,"text":"有正當性嗎?一個人還背負四個案子竟然總統對他已經判決確定的其中一個案子你要予以特赦?站在法務部你是追求公平正義的一個立場你認為對於這樣的一個犯罪人、罪犯你認為給他特赦對得起我們這個社會對得起這個國家對得起被判刑確定的人民嗎?"},{"start":270.741,"end":299.473,"text":"各位報告 這個問題剛剛 如同我剛剛所回覆委員的特赦它還是總統的特權權利好啦 次長 我想我也不為難你啦其實我很想告訴民進黨的這個的朋友們在這個四個案件還沒有判決定讞前蔡總統您要去特赦陳水扁真的不服社會的期待啦我們尊重你的特赦權但是你要行使特赦權你真的要考慮清楚它的正當性在哪裡啦"},{"start":300.615,"end":328.371,"text":"那其實我個人建議啊如果蔡總統或者未來的賴清德總統你們真的那麼想要去特赦陳水扁的話您是不是等到他這四個案子第一宴之後你再一併全部給他特赦嘛這樣不是更好嗎就基於他是前總統你要尊重他我想我們沒有意見但是在四個案件還沒有判決第一宴前您要去特赦他"},{"start":330.62,"end":354.742,"text":"這個真的從法的立場來看真的很站不住腳啦很站不住腳所以我也希望法務部還有司法院秘書長我不要欺騙你們啦現在停審的四個案如果您想要讓陳水扁趕快去獲得特赦這四個停審的案件盡快恢復審理啦"},{"start":355.748,"end":364.183,"text":"不要再遮遮掩掩了我剛才謝龍介這個委員講的啊你那追溯權時效可能都會快快那個消滅了趕快恢復審判嘛"},{"start":369.546,"end":394.716,"text":"陳水扁總統你就出來面對嘛你這個停審的原因啊剛才我們的總召副分席委員也講得非常清楚完全不符合相關停審的規定把外就醫還能夠趴趴照啊所以這個完全大家都覺得這個根本不是在實踐司法正義啊而是讓一個人享有特權"},{"start":396.041,"end":421.361,"text":"所以我們是希望說如果說真的要特赦他這我的建議陳水扁總統趕快就你的四個案件有罪無罪當然還沒有確定前不敢講但是你面對司法的審理趕快把這四個案件趕快來做出判決的確定定言之後我才呼籲我們不管是未來的賴清德總統"},{"start":422.202,"end":442.584,"text":"您才來決定要不要給予特赦我想這個正當性可能會比較夠了市長您同意我的看法嗎我尊重委員的決定也尊重總統的職權民主黨 針對這個停審的原因啊顯然我們看起來就已經消滅了嘛司法院是不是盡速的通知他趕快來重啟審判啊"},{"start":451.965,"end":465.459,"text":"秘書長這不是個案啦我想大家都明眼人都看得很清楚啦您本身也是擔任過法官法學素養一定非常的深厚嘛"},{"start":466.687,"end":478.372,"text":"您認為這個個案您個人判斷啊您看到他這個啪啪照啊這個還符合保外就醫的要件嗎這種案件法官針對這個個案難道還不趕快來重啓審判嗎司法院沒有一個立場嗎司法行政齁這個你們都可以裁量的嘛你們就是完全就是等於說是完全就是齁現在已經把司法正義喔拋在腦後了啦"},{"start":496.508,"end":504.369,"text":"只因為他是陳隨便兼總統所以這個不好啦來我最後一個問題再問你一下"},{"start":506.82,"end":532.71,"text":"我想我們除了這個特色的問題以外我們這個有關於全國大減刑我們看一下在1971年蔣中正總統有做全國大減刑1975年嚴家幹總統也有那麼1988年及1991年李登輝總統也有做大減刑2007年曾隨便總統任內也有執行所以歷年來也有5次的減刑"},{"start":534.464,"end":536.166,"text":"以最近一次的2007年為例,複合減刑的資格共有25000人,當時有10943人出獄。"},{"start":549.519,"end":564.351,"text":"請問當時減刑的原因跟理由是什麼你知道嗎因為它歷史至少有五次的減刑每一次的減刑它的條件跟理由都不一樣您大概可以敘述一下你還記得嗎我請問一下其中一個原因會不會是因為監鎖人滿為患"},{"start":573.506,"end":591.702,"text":"這是一個附屬的一個效應但他不會因為他拿來做減刑的事由另外一個是不是總統他大赦天下他要去這個等於說寬幼這些犯罪者希望他能夠趕快重新做人以起自新"},{"start":593.164,"end":611.286,"text":"所以給予減薪的寬點我們的社民法法上大赦、特赦、減薪、復權都有這樣的一個效應就是總統他特別的權力會產生剛剛委員你所提的效應是嗎?所以前面幾任總統五次減薪我想其實主要的理由應該就是他給予這些寬點"},{"start":612.287,"end":632.345,"text":"他就是展現他的一個讓罪犯能夠有自新機會趕快回復到社會來重新做人一起自新所以我想問你這一次賴金德總統上任有可能實行全國性的減刑嗎"},{"start":633.353,"end":635.155,"text":"法務部也沒有接受這方面的訊息"},{"start":648.933,"end":672.499,"text":"主席我再問一個問題那個是因為你剛才一直提到你到現在為止都沒有收到我們行政院總統這個叫行政院下令給你們法務部說趕快做相關這個赦免的研議那請問你如果現在蔡總統的任期只剩下五天左右五天而已那如果他在這幾天"},{"start":674.795,"end":695.666,"text":"下令說請你趕快做研議,法務部趕快做研議,你作業上來得及嗎?跟委員報告,涉免法規定他是得交研議啦,他也可以不交,他也可以自己就做涉免的決定,他不見得要交研議。他自己直接做就...對,他涉免法規定是得交本部來研議,得,他不見得會交研議。"},{"start":696.417,"end":721.294,"text":"那如果他交給你們研議,你們來得及作業嗎?各位報告,我剛剛有說事實上法務部就社會上爭議的問題我們事實上都有做一些法制上的研議或法制上的處理啦也不是為了這個個案所以你們有在做預作的研議,著手做研議的?做法律上的討論,也不是就這個個案做研議法律上的討論我們當然會做一些先期的處理,當然會任何一個法律上的爭議我們都會所以你會來得及就對了啦?"},{"start":722.611,"end":743.628,"text":"假設我們先假設嘛如果說他就是希望你法務部因為他法務部一定要有個說法啊總統自己直接發布這個令這也蠻奇怪的啊不會叫你法務部直接做一個研議的方向給他嗎但法規規上法律上規定他是得啦不一定一定必須啦對不是因所以你們作業上來得及啦你就給我回答來得及吧"},{"start":744.429,"end":744.749,"text":"好,謝謝,以上。"}]}}}}