{"id":152524,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152524","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0f022c42457dbfb64ad847f93a84224faabc25b9e10ac7e45ddacdabe21bd40ba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:05:24 - 11:17:31","影片長度":"00:12:07","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）執行現況」，併請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-20"},"duration":727,"end_time":"2024-05-15T11:17:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T11:05:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":630,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時5分）請外交部吳部長。"],["主席：請吳部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，今天我看了前面幾個委員質詢，你應該是最後一次在外交及國防委員會詢答。今天的題目原本是要談WHA的問題，可是確實這兩個禮拜以來密件的洩密事件，我認為這是非常嚴肅的事情，未來即便部長可能不在外交部，後面的次長或新任的部長來，外交部還是會有很多機密跟密件的文件，這裡面涉及該如何監督、該如何維護國會跟行政方面對於密件怎麼處理。我覺得這是非常嚴肅的問題，因為這個問題沒有處理好，後面國安或者是國際關係都可能連帶受到影響。"],["吳部長釗燮：沒錯。"],["洪委員申翰：所以我有幾件事情要跟部長請教，週末的時候我們看到一個新聞，這個新聞上面寫，司法委員會國民黨籍的吳宗憲召委說這個案子是非告訴乃論，外交部沒辦法撤告，所以他建議國民黨的委員要輪番給外交部壓力。"],["吳部長釗燮：我今天已經領教到了。"],["洪委員申翰：給外交部壓力，對外交部施壓，逼外交部自己具狀跟檢察官說，外交部希望不起訴。我要在這邊說，我今天不特別針對個人，但我想先請問，現在國民黨的吳宗憲召委講這樣子的話，外交部的反應是什麼？"],["吳部長釗燮：外交部並沒有針對這個事情討論，但是我個人的看法是，臺灣是三權分立、相互制衡的憲政體制，如果用壓迫行政部門的方式干涉司法權的話，會讓三個權力的相互制衡整個亂了套。我覺得這個萬萬不可，尤其是違反刑法第一百三十二條的事證如此明確，把文件秀出來，所有的媒體都有拍到，在這種狀況之下，外交部沒有不處理的空間。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我看到這個新聞的時候，第一時間感覺現在在野黨已經變成一個政治黑幫了嗎？在我的印象中，只有黑幫才會用這種聚眾圍事的做法，為一個違法者施壓，為一個違法者開脫，我真的覺得好像是遇到黑幫。這個事情很簡單，我們是國會議員，在國會的殿堂就是談法律問題。第一個問題，部長，你們2月23號送進立法院的這一份文件到底是不是密件？"],["吳部長釗燮：列「密」。"],["洪委員申翰：是「密」。"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["洪委員申翰：列「密」，我也收到了，上面蓋了一個大的「密」，這是第一個。第二個，就你們來看，徐委員有沒有涉嫌洩密？"],["吳部長釗燮：被媒體拍到，他把這個秀出來了。"],["洪委員申翰：從媒體的照片上面看出來，他其實有把它秀出來，對不對？"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["洪委員申翰：第三個，這個事情我們可以自己回答，馬文君委員也在，機密文件在國會有沒有合法的監督程序？我們可以直接說有，這個案子進到立法院是照條約締結法備查，如果委員會要監督就是備查改審查，大家就可以審查，大家就可以監督，就這麼簡單，國會是有監督密件程序的。下面一個問題，徐委員有沒有用合法監督密件的監督程序？沒有。有合法的程序，但他沒有用，所以問題非常、非常的簡單，不是不能監督啊！這跟不能監督根本是兩回事啊！所以列密就不能監督，我聽不懂邏輯在哪裡？","第三點，我要問外交部，徐委員要監督的時候，有沒有私下和外交部討論，希望用一個不公開的方式，想要來詢問、質詢或質疑這份密件的內容？有或沒有？"],["吳部長釗燮：並沒有，其實立法院有一些高層的長官私底下也有來問，我們就用機密的方式處理，所以是可以用機密……"],["洪委員申翰：用不公開的方式來處理，但是徐委員應該沒有，對不對？"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有。"],["洪委員申翰：好，我也確定馬文君委員排的機密會議，或者是外交及國防委員會排的機密會議，就沒有問到這一題嘛。所以有這麼多可以監督機密文件的方法，對不起，都沒有使用，只用了一個作法，就是在媒體上面公開，其實我真的不知道這有什麼好爭的。我再問一個問題，徐委員有沒有用各種他想要講的理由，跟外交部說這是不是應該解密？他有沒有來要請求解密？"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有。"],["洪委員申翰：在他公布前，有嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有。"],["洪委員申翰：也沒有要求解密，所以我真的不知道現在為了這個事情在吵什麼，道理這麼明確，明明就有合法監督的方法你不用，用這種作法，現在再來聚眾圍事、聚眾施壓，我不知道國民黨這是在做什麼。我要跟大家說，我覺得這是一個非常嚴肅的問題，牽涉到未來我們的國會到底要怎麼監督密件，如果未來密件監督的方法，全部都是直接把它拿到媒體前面公開，然後只要犯了法就撂人來施壓部長，如果這次可以這樣幹的話，那以後臺灣、中華民國還有什麼密件、還有什麼機密可言？這是非常嚴肅的問題。","我今天在這邊為什麼要用這個態度？因為我覺得這是沒有模糊地帶的事情。部長，我不知道你轄下的公務員接下來會在這件事上承受多少壓力，但我認為這條線在那邊清清楚楚，沒有模糊地帶。我不針對徐委員，我只針對這一個洩密的違法行為，今天任何的委員，就算是民進黨的委員，做了這件事情，我們也不允許。所以，部長，我要麻煩你，也許你下個星期就有另外一個職務，但你轄下的公務人員、這些文官們接下來還是會面對這件事情，我希望外交部在這件事情上，該據理力爭的就必須據理力爭，該爭取一個合法的或依法的行為的，就必須有依法的行為，這沒有模糊地帶，部長，可以嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有問題，我們外交部的同仁每天處理很多件的機密文件或資料，對於我們來講，這些就涉及我們國家的安全、國家的利益，我們同仁自己都有很高度的自我期待，就是這些事情我們要儘量去保護，所以……"],["洪委員申翰：剛剛國民黨的委員甚至在問，為什麼這個捐助案沒有用政府採購法，這道理非常簡單嘛！請問這次0403地震，社會上捐了一堆錢給花蓮縣政府，花蓮縣政府收到這些捐款以後，它的支出是不是都有用政府採購法？當然沒有嘛！但我們會不會因為它沒有用政府採購法，就說這裡面有弊端，就要傅委員或徐縣長出來說清楚講明白，指控他們言裡面有弊案，指控他圖利誰？我們不會嘛！"],["吳部長釗燮：尤其指控的對象是協助我們的人，譬如捐款給花蓮……"],["洪委員申翰：這就是一個捐助案嘛！所以我在這邊要說，這事情非常嚴肅，我們希望外交部能夠堅守立場。","接下來我剩的時間不多，我想請教外交部，這段時間我們看到美國跟菲律賓在南海有一個肩並肩的計畫，我想部長其實有注意到吧？"],["吳部長釗燮：對，這個是聯合演習。"],["洪委員申翰：在這個聯合演習計畫裡面，我們其實現在看到第一、在第一島鏈裡面，我們過去在處理臺灣到菲律賓這一段的時候，好像有一些在海巡上的合作計畫，是不是？"],["吳部長釗燮：我們跟很多其他的國家都有海巡合作。"],["洪委員申翰：現在我自己看到在第一島鏈裡面，假如我們現在跟菲律賓也開始有相關的合作的話，據我瞭解，可能外交部也有從中協助，往下越南跟菲律賓也開始締結更多一些其它的海上合作協議，甚至我們也看到越南現在也在改善它跟美方的關係，也許也有機會，我們可以把我們海上合作的範圍往越南、往菲律賓這段來延伸，讓第一島鏈民主國家聯盟能夠更加地堅實，這件事情部長有什麼看法？"],["吳部長釗燮：非常謝謝委員，我們的海巡能夠跟其他國家來進行合作，不管是桌上的或者是實兵的，這些都是我們希望能夠來促進的，但是有關於媒體報導的我們跟菲律賓合作的部分，因為我們不是業管機關，也沒有受到其他機關的委託，所以我在這邊沒有答案。"],["洪委員申翰：好，我剛才要說明的事情是，現在這些合作中確實出現了對我們來講相對有利的地緣政治的契機，我們很希望不管外交部、國防部或者海巡署，只要有機會，就應該擴展我們合作的版圖。包括部長接下來可能會到國安會，但以後國安會秘書長不一定會在這邊接受質詢，可是有機會我希望我們能夠盡力爭取，把我們第一島鏈的防線，尤其是對於威權國家、極權國家的這個防線能夠做得更加堅實。也許我們存在這個機會，至於用什麼方式，我們可能沒有辦法用正式的國防的方式，但怎麼樣用一個彈性的方式，符合我們國家利益跟我們當前困境需求的方式，這部分當然接下來也要請吳部長到下一個職位時必須多費心，可是我們非常非常期待這件事情，也請吳部長把這件事情帶到下一個職位的時候，再來做一個更縝密、更符合我們需求的規劃，好不好？"],["吳部長釗燮：會，我們會朝這樣的方向來努力，未來還是希望有委員提供我們一些寶貴意見的這個機會，那我在這邊也要說明，就是所有委員的說明或建議，對我們來講都是非常好的參考，即使是反對黨的委員，譬如陳永康委員，他的很多意見都非常的寶貴，所以未來只要有好的意見的委員，我們仍然會繼續來請教。"],["洪委員申翰：好，謝謝部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時17分）","繼續開會（11時24分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接下來請林憶君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-20","speakers":["馬文君","邱志偉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","羅智強","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","林憶君","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","黃國昌","陳菁徽","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","李坤城","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","楊瓊瓔","范雲","陳培瑜","王正旭","林月琴","牛煦庭","翁曉玲","葉元之","張雅琳","林思銘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（ WHA）執行現況」，併\n請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134501_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"152524","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152524","tool":"pyannote","id":"152524-pyannote"},"job_id":"0ZludkxniiAT3DSr","queued_at":"2024-05-31 07:52:21","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-05-31 07:53:20","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152524"},{"time":"2024-05-31 07:53:22","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0f022c42457dbfb64ad847f93a84224facfe3064cd06af2b6123c9bf4d9a557af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-05-31 07:53:42","msg":"converting mp4 to wav"},{"time":"2024-05-31 07:53:44","msg":"running pyannote"},{"time":"2024-05-31 07:53:56","msg":"status: 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{\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 364.704, \"end\": 364.924, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 364.924, \"end\": 364.944, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 364.944, \"end\": 364.964, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 364.964, \"end\": 364.984, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"幹\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 364.984, \"end\": 365.004, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"話\"}]}, {\"start\": 391.598, \"end\": 417.596, \"text\": \"那以後臺灣中華民國還有什麼密件還有什麼機密可言這是非常嚴肅的問題我今天在這邊為什麼要用這個態度我覺得這是沒有模糊地帶的事情部長我不知道你所轄下的公務員接下來會在這件事上承受多少壓力但我認為這條線在那邊清清楚楚沒有模糊地帶我不針對徐委員\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 391.598, \"end\": 391.878, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 391.878, \"end\": 392.899, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 392.899, \"end\": 393.219, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"臺\"}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 393.219, \"end\": 393.499, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 414.734, \"end\": 414.914, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 414.914, \"end\": 415.154, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 415.154, \"end\": 415.394, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 415.394, \"end\": 416.595, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 416.595, \"end\": 416.715, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 416.715, \"end\": 416.835, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"模\", \"start\": 416.835, \"end\": 417.015, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"糊\", \"start\": 417.015, \"end\": 417.195, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 417.195, \"end\": 417.315, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"帶\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 417.315, \"end\": 417.336, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 417.336, \"end\": 417.376, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"徐\", \"start\": 417.376, \"end\": 417.576, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 417.576, \"end\": 417.596, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}]}, {\"start\": 422.045, \"end\": 446.414, \"text\": \"我只針對這一個洩密的違法行為今天是任何的委員就算是民進黨的委員做了這件事情我們也不允許所以部長我要麻煩你也許你下個星期你就有另外一個職務但你狹下的公務人員你狹下的這些文官們還是會接下來面對這件事情我希望外交部在這件事情\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 422.045, \"end\": 422.205, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 422.205, \"end\": 422.885, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 422.885, \"end\": 423.906, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"洩\"}, {\"word\": \"密\", \"start\": 423.906, \"end\": 424.106, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 424.106, \"end\": 424.586, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"違\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 424.586, \"end\": 424.746, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 424.746, \"end\": 427.087, \"score\": 0.68}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 427.087, \"end\": 427.187, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 427.187, \"end\": 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00:01:10,977\n外交部還是會有很多機密跟密件的文件這裡面涉及到相關該如何監督該如何維護這個國會跟行政方面對於密件怎麼去處理的這個我覺得是非常嚴肅的問題因為這個問題沒有處理好後面連帶的其實可能是我們的國安或者是我們的國際關係都會受到影響的事情所以我這邊有幾件事情要跟部長再來請教\n\n4\n00:01:12,978 --> 00:01:13,638\n我今年已經領教到了\n\n5\n00:01:42,265 --> 00:01:55,129\n來給外交部壓力然後施壓外交部逼得外交部要自己劇狀跟檢察官說我希望不起訴外交部希望不起訴我要這邊說我今天不特別針對個人但我要先請問現在國民黨的吳釗燮吳宗憲吳宗憲召委講這樣子的話外交部的反應是什麼\n\n6\n00:02:08,867 --> 00:02:35,587\n我們外交部並沒有針對這個事情討論但是我個人的這個看法就是說我們台灣的這個憲政體制是一個三權分立相互制衡的一個體制那如果說用壓迫行政部門去處理去干涉那個司法權的話那這個會讓三個權力的相互制衡整個亂了套啦我是覺得說這個是萬萬不可那尤其是這種\n\n7\n00:02:36,288 --> 00:02:40,490\n不然我看到這新聞的時候第一時間我感覺現在在野黨是已經變成是一個政治黑幫了嗎在我的印象中只有黑幫才會用這種聚眾為事的做法\n\n8\n00:03:05,214 --> 00:03:15,306\n來去為一個違法者施壓來為一個違法者開脫我真的覺得好像是遇到了黑幫啊這事情很簡單我們是國會議員在國會的殿堂就是談法律問題\n\n9\n00:03:23,612 --> 00:03:46,231\n第一個問題部長是到底這份文件你們2月23號送進立法院這份文件是不是密件列密是密是列密我也收到了上面蓋了一個大大的密這第一個第二個徐委員有沒有涉嫌洩密因為被媒體拍到就你們來看從媒體照片上面看出他其實有把他秀出來對不對是第三個\n\n10\n00:03:48,331 --> 00:04:16,982\n這個事情我們可以自己回答包括馬文俊委員也在機密文件在國會有沒有合法的監督程序我們可以直接說有這個案子進到立法院是照條約締結法來被查如果委員會要來監督其實就是被查改審查大家就可以審查大家就可以監督就這麼簡單所以國會是有監督密件的程序的下面一個問題\n\n11\n00:04:19,298 --> 00:04:25,239\n徐委員有沒有用合法監督密件的監督程序沒有有程序合法的程序但他沒有用所以問題非常非常的簡單啊不是不能監督啊這跟不能監督根本是兩回事啊所以要把獵密就不能監督我聽不懂邏輯在哪裡第三點我要問外交部\n\n12\n00:04:50,464 --> 00:04:59,072\n徐委員在要跟你監督的時候他有沒有來私下找外交部討論希望用一個不公開的方式想要來詢問或者是來質詢質疑這一個\n\n13\n00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:31,105\n這份密件的文件的內容有或沒有?並沒有其實立法院有一些長官高層的長官私底下也有來問那我們就用機密的這個方式處理所以是可以用機密的方式用不公開的方式來處理但是徐委員應該沒有對不對?沒有好我也確定馬文俊委員排的機密會議或者是外交國防排的機密會議就沒有問到這一題嘛所以有這麼多可以來監督機密文件的方法對不起都沒有使用只用了一個做法就是在媒體上面公開\n\n14\n00:05:32,225 --> 00:05:51,733\n其實我真的不知道這有什麼好爭的我再問一個問題徐委員有沒有拿著各種的他想要講的理由來跟外交部說這是不是應該解密他有沒有來請求解密沒有在他公布前有嗎沒有也沒有要求解密所以我真的不知道現在在這個事情在吵什麼道理這麼明確明明就有合法監督的方法你不用用這種做法\n\n15\n00:06:00,623 --> 00:06:05,004\n現在再要聚眾來為事聚眾來施壓我不知道國民黨這是在做什麼我要跟大家說我覺得這是一個非常嚴肅的問題這牽涉到未來我們的國會到底要怎麼監督密件如果未來密件的監督的方法全部都是直接把它拿在媒體前面公開然後只要犯了法我們就繞人來施壓部長如果這是可以這樣幹的話\n\n16\n00:06:31,598 --> 00:06:57,596\n那以後臺灣中華民國還有什麼密件還有什麼機密可言這是非常嚴肅的問題我今天在這邊為什麼要用這個態度我覺得這是沒有模糊地帶的事情部長我不知道你所轄下的公務員接下來會在這件事上承受多少壓力但我認為這條線在那邊清清楚楚沒有模糊地帶我不針對徐委員\n\n17\n00:07:02,045 --> 00:07:26,414\n我只針對這一個洩密的違法行為今天是任何的委員就算是民進黨的委員做了這件事情我們也不允許所以部長我要麻煩你也許你下個星期你就有另外一個職務但你狹下的公務人員你狹下的這些文官們還是會接下來面對這件事情我希望外交部在這件事情\n\n18\n00:07:28,473 --> 00:07:28,493\n這個對我們來講\n\n19\n00:07:53,109 --> 00:08:20,102\n所謂的這些機密的東西就是涉及到我們國家的安全國家的利益的事情我們的同仁自己都有這種很高度的自我期待就是說這些事情我們要盡量去保護剛剛國民黨的委員甚至在問說為什麼這個捐助案沒有用政府採購法這道理非常簡單嘛請問這次0403地震大家社會上面捐了一堆錢給花蓮縣政府\n\n20\n00:08:21,528 --> 00:08:41,690\n華聯縣政府收到這些捐款以後他的支出是不是都有用政府採購法當然沒有嘛但我們會不會因為他沒有用政府採購法就說你這裡面有弊端就要副委員或者是徐縣長出來說清楚講明白指控他這裡面有弊案指控他要圖利誰我們不會嘛\n\n21\n00:08:43,513 --> 00:09:05,840\n尤其是指控的對象是這種協助我們的這些人比如說捐款給花蓮的這些人被指責這就是一個捐助案嘛這就是一個捐助案嘛所以我們在這邊我要說這事情非常嚴肅我們希望外交部要能夠堅守立場今天我還剩時間不多我想請教跟外交部請教我們最近時間其實看到在南海\n\n22\n00:09:06,940 --> 00:09:13,494\n美國跟菲律賓之間有一個這個肩並肩的計畫我想部長其實有注意到吧對這個是聯合演習這聯合演習的計畫裡面我們其實現在看到\n\n23\n00:09:16,923 --> 00:09:41,513\n第一個在第一島鏈裡面我們過去其實在處理台灣到菲律賓這一段的時候其實我們看到好像有一些在海巡上面的合作計畫是不是部長我們跟很多其他的國家都有海巡合作是那現在我們在看到我自己看到在第一島鏈裡面假如我們現在跟菲律賓這邊也有開始相關的合作的話據我了解可能外交部這邊也有從中來協助\n\n24\n00:09:43,194 --> 00:10:02,618\n那往下現在在越南跟菲律賓也開始締結一些更多其他的海上合作的關係甚至我們看到越南現在也在改善他跟美方之間的關係也許也有機會我們可以把我們海上合作的範圍甚至有沒有機會再往越南\n\n25\n00:10:03,103 --> 00:10:09,568\n非常謝謝委員我們的海巡能夠跟其他國家來進行合作不管是桌上的或者是士兵的那這些都是我們希望能夠來促進的但是有關於媒體出現的那個我們台灣跟菲律賓的這種合作的這個部分\n\n26\n00:10:27,543 --> 00:10:35,707\n現在在這些合作的機會確實出現了對我們來講相對有利的地緣政治的契機我們很希望不管外交部不管國防部或者是我們的海巡只要有機會我們就應該擴展我們合作的版圖\n\n27\n00:10:54,858 --> 00:11:12,087\n也包括部長接下來可能會到國安會當然以後國安會秘書長不一定會在這邊來接受質詢可是有機會我們希望我們能夠盡力爭取把我們第一島鏈的防線尤其是對於威權國家及全國家的這個防線能夠做得更加的堅實\n\n28\n00:11:13,208 --> 00:11:37,970\n好那我認為也許我們是存在這個機會但用什麼方式我們可能沒有辦法用正式的國防的方式但怎麼樣一個彈性的方式符合我們國家利益跟我們當前困境需求的方式這部分當然接下來也要請吳部長到下一個職位的時候必須多費心可是我們非常非常期待這件事情也請吳部長把這件事情也許再帶到你下一個職位的時候再來做一個更準密符合我們需求的規劃好不好\n\n29\n00:11:38,370 --> 00:11:38,570\n謝謝部長空位有期\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1623\t24694\t請外交部吳部長請吳部長洪委員好部長今天我看了前面幾個委員大家在你這應該是最後一次在外交國防委員會的詢答那當然我們今天的題目原本是要談WHA的問題可是其實確實這兩個禮拜\n29077\t43777\t針對這個密件的洩密的事件我認為這是一個非常非常嚴肅的事情尤其是未來即便可能部長不在外交部了不管後面的次長或後面的新任的部長來\n45319\t70977\t外交部還是會有很多機密跟密件的文件這裡面涉及到相關該如何監督該如何維護這個國會跟行政方面對於密件怎麼去處理的這個我覺得是非常嚴肅的問題因為這個問題沒有處理好後面連帶的其實可能是我們的國安或者是我們的國際關係都會受到影響的事情所以我這邊有幾件事情要跟部長再來請教\n72978\t73638\t我今年已經領教到了\n102265\t115129\t來給外交部壓力然後施壓外交部逼得外交部要自己劇狀跟檢察官說我希望不起訴外交部希望不起訴我要這邊說我今天不特別針對個人但我要先請問現在國民黨的吳釗燮 吳宗憲吳宗憲召委講這樣子的話外交部的反應是什麼\n128867\t155587\t我們外交部並沒有針對這個事情討論但是我個人的這個看法就是說我們台灣的這個憲政體制是一個三權分立相互制衡的一個體制那如果說用壓迫行政部門去處理去干涉那個司法權的話那這個會讓三個權力的相互制衡整個亂了套啦我是覺得說這個是萬萬不可那尤其是這種\n156288\t160490\t不然我看到這新聞的時候第一時間我感覺現在在野黨是已經變成是一個政治黑幫了嗎在我的印象中只有黑幫才會用這種聚眾為事的做法\n185214\t195306\t來去為一個違法者施壓來為一個違法者開脫我真的覺得好像是遇到了黑幫啊這事情很簡單我們是國會議員在國會的殿堂就是談法律問題\n203612\t226231\t第一個問題部長是到底這份文件你們2月23號送進立法院這份文件是不是密件列密是密是列密我也收到了上面蓋了一個大大的密這第一個第二個徐委員有沒有涉嫌洩密因為被媒體拍到就你們來看從媒體照片上面看出他其實有把他秀出來對不對是第三個\n228331\t256982\t這個事情我們可以自己回答包括馬文俊委員也在機密文件在國會有沒有合法的監督程序我們可以直接說有這個案子進到立法院是照條約締結法來被查如果委員會要來監督其實就是被查改審查大家就可以審查大家就可以監督就這麼簡單所以國會是有監督密件的程序的下面一個問題\n259298\t265239\t徐委員有沒有用合法監督密件的監督程序沒有有程序合法的程序但他沒有用所以問題非常非常的簡單啊不是不能監督啊這跟不能監督根本是兩回事啊所以要把獵密就不能監督我聽不懂邏輯在哪裡第三點我要問外交部\n290464\t299072\t徐委員在要跟你監督的時候他有沒有來私下找外交部討論希望用一個不公開的方式想要來詢問或者是來質詢質疑這一個\n302640\t331105\t這份密件的文件的內容有或沒有?並沒有其實立法院有一些長官高層的長官私底下也有來問那我們就用機密的這個方式處理所以是可以用機密的方式用不公開的方式來處理但是徐委員應該沒有對不對?沒有好我也確定馬文俊委員排的機密會議或者是外交國防排的機密會議就沒有問到這一題嘛所以有這麼多可以來監督機密文件的方法對不起都沒有使用只用了一個做法就是在媒體上面公開\n332225\t351733\t其實我真的不知道這有什麼好爭的我再問一個問題徐委員有沒有拿著各種的他想要講的理由來跟外交部說這是不是應該解密他有沒有來請求解密沒有在他公布前有嗎沒有也沒有要求解密所以我真的不知道現在在這個事情在吵什麼道理這麼明確明明就有合法監督的方法你不用用這種做法\n360623\t365004\t現在再要聚眾來為事聚眾來施壓我不知道國民黨這是在做什麼我要跟大家說我覺得這是一個非常嚴肅的問題這牽涉到未來我們的國會到底要怎麼監督密件如果未來密件的監督的方法全部都是直接把它拿在媒體前面公開然後只要犯了法我們就繞人來施壓部長如果這是可以這樣幹的話\n391598\t417596\t那以後臺灣中華民國還有什麼密件還有什麼機密可言這是非常嚴肅的問題我今天在這邊為什麼要用這個態度我覺得這是沒有模糊地帶的事情部長我不知道你所轄下的公務員接下來會在這件事上承受多少壓力但我認為這條線在那邊清清楚楚沒有模糊地帶我不針對徐委員\n422045\t446414\t我只針對這一個洩密的違法行為今天是任何的委員就算是民進黨的委員做了這件事情我們也不允許所以部長我要麻煩你也許你下個星期你就有另外一個職務但你狹下的公務人員你狹下的這些文官們還是會接下來面對這件事情我希望外交部在這件事情\n448473\t448493\t這個對我們來講\n473109\t500102\t所謂的這些機密的東西就是涉及到我們國家的安全國家的利益的事情我們的同仁自己都有這種很高度的自我期待就是說這些事情我們要盡量去保護剛剛國民黨的委員甚至在問說為什麼這個捐助案沒有用政府採購法這道理非常簡單嘛請問這次0403地震大家社會上面捐了一堆錢給花蓮縣政府\n501528\t521690\t華聯縣政府收到這些捐款以後他的支出是不是都有用政府採購法當然沒有嘛但我們會不會因為他沒有用政府採購法就說你這裡面有弊端就要副委員或者是徐縣長出來說清楚講明白指控他這裡面有弊案指控他要圖利誰我們不會嘛\n523513\t545840\t尤其是指控的對象是這種協助我們的這些人比如說捐款給花蓮的這些人被指責這就是一個捐助案嘛這就是一個捐助案嘛所以我們在這邊我要說這事情非常嚴肅我們希望外交部要能夠堅守立場今天我還剩時間不多我想請教跟外交部請教我們最近時間其實看到在南海\n546940\t553494\t美國跟菲律賓之間有一個這個肩並肩的計畫我想部長其實有注意到吧對 這個是聯合演習這聯合演習的計畫裡面我們其實現在看到\n556923\t581513\t第一個在第一島鏈裡面我們過去其實在處理台灣到菲律賓這一段的時候其實我們看到好像有一些在海巡上面的合作計畫是不是部長我們跟很多其他的國家都有海巡合作是那現在我們在看到我自己看到在第一島鏈裡面假如我們現在跟菲律賓這邊也有開始相關的合作的話據我了解可能外交部這邊也有從中來協助\n583194\t602618\t那往下現在在越南跟菲律賓也開始締結一些更多其他的海上合作的關係甚至我們看到越南現在也在改善他跟美方之間的關係也許也有機會我們可以把我們海上合作的範圍甚至有沒有機會再往越南\n603103\t609568\t非常謝謝委員我們的海巡能夠跟其他國家來進行合作不管是桌上的或者是士兵的那這些都是我們希望能夠來促進的但是有關於媒體出現的那個我們台灣跟菲律賓的這種合作的這個部分\n627543\t635707\t現在在這些合作的機會確實出現了對我們來講相對有利的 地緣政治的契機我們很希望不管外交部 不管國防部 或者是我們的海巡只要有機會 我們就應該擴展我們合作的版圖\n654858\t672087\t也包括部長接下來可能會到國安會當然以後國安會秘書長不一定會在這邊來接受質詢可是有機會我們希望我們能夠盡力爭取把我們第一島鏈的防線尤其是對於威權國家及全國家的這個防線能夠做得更加的堅實\n673208\t697970\t好 那我認為也許我們是存在這個機會但用什麼方式我們可能沒有辦法用正式的國防的方式但怎麼樣一個彈性的方式符合我們國家利益跟我們當前困境需求的方式這部分當然接下來也要請吳部長到下一個職位的時候必須多費心可是我們非常非常期待這件事情也請吳部長把這件事情也許再帶到你下一個職位的時候再來做一個更準密符合我們需求的規劃好不好\n698370\t698570\t謝謝部長 空位有期\n","txt":"請外交部吳部長請吳部長洪委員好部長今天我看了前面幾個委員大家在你這應該是最後一次在外交國防委員會的詢答那當然我們今天的題目原本是要談WHA的問題可是其實確實這兩個禮拜\n針對這個密件的洩密的事件我認為這是一個非常非常嚴肅的事情尤其是未來即便可能部長不在外交部了不管後面的次長或後面的新任的部長來\n外交部還是會有很多機密跟密件的文件這裡面涉及到相關該如何監督該如何維護這個國會跟行政方面對於密件怎麼去處理的這個我覺得是非常嚴肅的問題因為這個問題沒有處理好後面連帶的其實可能是我們的國安或者是我們的國際關係都會受到影響的事情所以我這邊有幾件事情要跟部長再來請教\n我今年已經領教到了\n來給外交部壓力然後施壓外交部逼得外交部要自己劇狀跟檢察官說我希望不起訴外交部希望不起訴我要這邊說我今天不特別針對個人但我要先請問現在國民黨的吳釗燮 吳宗憲吳宗憲召委講這樣子的話外交部的反應是什麼\n我們外交部並沒有針對這個事情討論但是我個人的這個看法就是說我們台灣的這個憲政體制是一個三權分立相互制衡的一個體制那如果說用壓迫行政部門去處理去干涉那個司法權的話那這個會讓三個權力的相互制衡整個亂了套啦我是覺得說這個是萬萬不可那尤其是這種\n不然我看到這新聞的時候第一時間我感覺現在在野黨是已經變成是一個政治黑幫了嗎在我的印象中只有黑幫才會用這種聚眾為事的做法\n來去為一個違法者施壓來為一個違法者開脫我真的覺得好像是遇到了黑幫啊這事情很簡單我們是國會議員在國會的殿堂就是談法律問題\n第一個問題部長是到底這份文件你們2月23號送進立法院這份文件是不是密件列密是密是列密我也收到了上面蓋了一個大大的密這第一個第二個徐委員有沒有涉嫌洩密因為被媒體拍到就你們來看從媒體照片上面看出他其實有把他秀出來對不對是第三個\n這個事情我們可以自己回答包括馬文俊委員也在機密文件在國會有沒有合法的監督程序我們可以直接說有這個案子進到立法院是照條約締結法來被查如果委員會要來監督其實就是被查改審查大家就可以審查大家就可以監督就這麼簡單所以國會是有監督密件的程序的下面一個問題\n徐委員有沒有用合法監督密件的監督程序沒有有程序合法的程序但他沒有用所以問題非常非常的簡單啊不是不能監督啊這跟不能監督根本是兩回事啊所以要把獵密就不能監督我聽不懂邏輯在哪裡第三點我要問外交部\n徐委員在要跟你監督的時候他有沒有來私下找外交部討論希望用一個不公開的方式想要來詢問或者是來質詢質疑這一個\n這份密件的文件的內容有或沒有?並沒有其實立法院有一些長官高層的長官私底下也有來問那我們就用機密的這個方式處理所以是可以用機密的方式用不公開的方式來處理但是徐委員應該沒有對不對?沒有好我也確定馬文俊委員排的機密會議或者是外交國防排的機密會議就沒有問到這一題嘛所以有這麼多可以來監督機密文件的方法對不起都沒有使用只用了一個做法就是在媒體上面公開\n其實我真的不知道這有什麼好爭的我再問一個問題徐委員有沒有拿著各種的他想要講的理由來跟外交部說這是不是應該解密他有沒有來請求解密沒有在他公布前有嗎沒有也沒有要求解密所以我真的不知道現在在這個事情在吵什麼道理這麼明確明明就有合法監督的方法你不用用這種做法\n現在再要聚眾來為事聚眾來施壓我不知道國民黨這是在做什麼我要跟大家說我覺得這是一個非常嚴肅的問題這牽涉到未來我們的國會到底要怎麼監督密件如果未來密件的監督的方法全部都是直接把它拿在媒體前面公開然後只要犯了法我們就繞人來施壓部長如果這是可以這樣幹的話\n那以後臺灣中華民國還有什麼密件還有什麼機密可言這是非常嚴肅的問題我今天在這邊為什麼要用這個態度我覺得這是沒有模糊地帶的事情部長我不知道你所轄下的公務員接下來會在這件事上承受多少壓力但我認為這條線在那邊清清楚楚沒有模糊地帶我不針對徐委員\n我只針對這一個洩密的違法行為今天是任何的委員就算是民進黨的委員做了這件事情我們也不允許所以部長我要麻煩你也許你下個星期你就有另外一個職務但你狹下的公務人員你狹下的這些文官們還是會接下來面對這件事情我希望外交部在這件事情\n這個對我們來講\n所謂的這些機密的東西就是涉及到我們國家的安全國家的利益的事情我們的同仁自己都有這種很高度的自我期待就是說這些事情我們要盡量去保護剛剛國民黨的委員甚至在問說為什麼這個捐助案沒有用政府採購法這道理非常簡單嘛請問這次0403地震大家社會上面捐了一堆錢給花蓮縣政府\n華聯縣政府收到這些捐款以後他的支出是不是都有用政府採購法當然沒有嘛但我們會不會因為他沒有用政府採購法就說你這裡面有弊端就要副委員或者是徐縣長出來說清楚講明白指控他這裡面有弊案指控他要圖利誰我們不會嘛\n尤其是指控的對象是這種協助我們的這些人比如說捐款給花蓮的這些人被指責這就是一個捐助案嘛這就是一個捐助案嘛所以我們在這邊我要說這事情非常嚴肅我們希望外交部要能夠堅守立場今天我還剩時間不多我想請教跟外交部請教我們最近時間其實看到在南海\n美國跟菲律賓之間有一個這個肩並肩的計畫我想部長其實有注意到吧對 這個是聯合演習這聯合演習的計畫裡面我們其實現在看到\n第一個在第一島鏈裡面我們過去其實在處理台灣到菲律賓這一段的時候其實我們看到好像有一些在海巡上面的合作計畫是不是部長我們跟很多其他的國家都有海巡合作是那現在我們在看到我自己看到在第一島鏈裡面假如我們現在跟菲律賓這邊也有開始相關的合作的話據我了解可能外交部這邊也有從中來協助\n那往下現在在越南跟菲律賓也開始締結一些更多其他的海上合作的關係甚至我們看到越南現在也在改善他跟美方之間的關係也許也有機會我們可以把我們海上合作的範圍甚至有沒有機會再往越南\n非常謝謝委員我們的海巡能夠跟其他國家來進行合作不管是桌上的或者是士兵的那這些都是我們希望能夠來促進的但是有關於媒體出現的那個我們台灣跟菲律賓的這種合作的這個部分\n現在在這些合作的機會確實出現了對我們來講相對有利的 地緣政治的契機我們很希望不管外交部 不管國防部 或者是我們的海巡只要有機會 我們就應該擴展我們合作的版圖\n也包括部長接下來可能會到國安會當然以後國安會秘書長不一定會在這邊來接受質詢可是有機會我們希望我們能夠盡力爭取把我們第一島鏈的防線尤其是對於威權國家及全國家的這個防線能夠做得更加的堅實\n好 那我認為也許我們是存在這個機會但用什麼方式我們可能沒有辦法用正式的國防的方式但怎麼樣一個彈性的方式符合我們國家利益跟我們當前困境需求的方式這部分當然接下來也要請吳部長到下一個職位的時候必須多費心可是我們非常非常期待這件事情也請吳部長把這件事情也許再帶到你下一個職位的時候再來做一個更準密符合我們需求的規劃好不好\n謝謝部長 空位有期\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.623 --> 00:24.694\n請外交部吳部長請吳部長洪委員好部長今天我看了前面幾個委員大家在你這應該是最後一次在外交國防委員會的詢答那當然我們今天的題目原本是要談WHA的問題可是其實確實這兩個禮拜\n\n00:29.077 --> 00:43.777\n針對這個密件的洩密的事件我認為這是一個非常非常嚴肅的事情尤其是未來即便可能部長不在外交部了不管後面的次長或後面的新任的部長來\n\n00:45.319 --> 01:10.977\n外交部還是會有很多機密跟密件的文件這裡面涉及到相關該如何監督該如何維護這個國會跟行政方面對於密件怎麼去處理的這個我覺得是非常嚴肅的問題因為這個問題沒有處理好後面連帶的其實可能是我們的國安或者是我們的國際關係都會受到影響的事情所以我這邊有幾件事情要跟部長再來請教\n\n01:12.978 --> 01:13.638\n我今年已經領教到了\n\n01:42.265 --> 01:55.129\n來給外交部壓力然後施壓外交部逼得外交部要自己劇狀跟檢察官說我希望不起訴外交部希望不起訴我要這邊說我今天不特別針對個人但我要先請問現在國民黨的吳釗燮吳宗憲吳宗憲召委講這樣子的話外交部的反應是什麼\n\n02:08.867 --> 02:35.587\n我們外交部並沒有針對這個事情討論但是我個人的這個看法就是說我們台灣的這個憲政體制是一個三權分立相互制衡的一個體制那如果說用壓迫行政部門去處理去干涉那個司法權的話那這個會讓三個權力的相互制衡整個亂了套啦我是覺得說這個是萬萬不可那尤其是這種\n\n02:36.288 --> 02:40.490\n不然我看到這新聞的時候第一時間我感覺現在在野黨是已經變成是一個政治黑幫了嗎在我的印象中只有黑幫才會用這種聚眾為事的做法\n\n03:05.214 --> 03:15.306\n來去為一個違法者施壓來為一個違法者開脫我真的覺得好像是遇到了黑幫啊這事情很簡單我們是國會議員在國會的殿堂就是談法律問題\n\n03:23.612 --> 03:46.231\n第一個問題部長是到底這份文件你們2月23號送進立法院這份文件是不是密件列密是密是列密我也收到了上面蓋了一個大大的密這第一個第二個徐委員有沒有涉嫌洩密因為被媒體拍到就你們來看從媒體照片上面看出他其實有把他秀出來對不對是第三個\n\n03:48.331 --> 04:16.982\n這個事情我們可以自己回答包括馬文俊委員也在機密文件在國會有沒有合法的監督程序我們可以直接說有這個案子進到立法院是照條約締結法來被查如果委員會要來監督其實就是被查改審查大家就可以審查大家就可以監督就這麼簡單所以國會是有監督密件的程序的下面一個問題\n\n04:19.298 --> 04:25.239\n徐委員有沒有用合法監督密件的監督程序沒有有程序合法的程序但他沒有用所以問題非常非常的簡單啊不是不能監督啊這跟不能監督根本是兩回事啊所以要把獵密就不能監督我聽不懂邏輯在哪裡第三點我要問外交部\n\n04:50.464 --> 04:59.072\n徐委員在要跟你監督的時候他有沒有來私下找外交部討論希望用一個不公開的方式想要來詢問或者是來質詢質疑這一個\n\n05:02.640 --> 05:31.105\n這份密件的文件的內容有或沒有?並沒有其實立法院有一些長官高層的長官私底下也有來問那我們就用機密的這個方式處理所以是可以用機密的方式用不公開的方式來處理但是徐委員應該沒有對不對?沒有好我也確定馬文俊委員排的機密會議或者是外交國防排的機密會議就沒有問到這一題嘛所以有這麼多可以來監督機密文件的方法對不起都沒有使用只用了一個做法就是在媒體上面公開\n\n05:32.225 --> 05:51.733\n其實我真的不知道這有什麼好爭的我再問一個問題徐委員有沒有拿著各種的他想要講的理由來跟外交部說這是不是應該解密他有沒有來請求解密沒有在他公布前有嗎沒有也沒有要求解密所以我真的不知道現在在這個事情在吵什麼道理這麼明確明明就有合法監督的方法你不用用這種做法\n\n06:00.623 --> 06:05.004\n現在再要聚眾來為事聚眾來施壓我不知道國民黨這是在做什麼我要跟大家說我覺得這是一個非常嚴肅的問題這牽涉到未來我們的國會到底要怎麼監督密件如果未來密件的監督的方法全部都是直接把它拿在媒體前面公開然後只要犯了法我們就繞人來施壓部長如果這是可以這樣幹的話\n\n06:31.598 --> 06:57.596\n那以後臺灣中華民國還有什麼密件還有什麼機密可言這是非常嚴肅的問題我今天在這邊為什麼要用這個態度我覺得這是沒有模糊地帶的事情部長我不知道你所轄下的公務員接下來會在這件事上承受多少壓力但我認為這條線在那邊清清楚楚沒有模糊地帶我不針對徐委員\n\n07:02.045 --> 07:26.414\n我只針對這一個洩密的違法行為今天是任何的委員就算是民進黨的委員做了這件事情我們也不允許所以部長我要麻煩你也許你下個星期你就有另外一個職務但你狹下的公務人員你狹下的這些文官們還是會接下來面對這件事情我希望外交部在這件事情\n\n07:28.473 --> 07:28.493\n這個對我們來講\n\n07:53.109 --> 08:20.102\n所謂的這些機密的東西就是涉及到我們國家的安全國家的利益的事情我們的同仁自己都有這種很高度的自我期待就是說這些事情我們要盡量去保護剛剛國民黨的委員甚至在問說為什麼這個捐助案沒有用政府採購法這道理非常簡單嘛請問這次0403地震大家社會上面捐了一堆錢給花蓮縣政府\n\n08:21.528 --> 08:41.690\n華聯縣政府收到這些捐款以後他的支出是不是都有用政府採購法當然沒有嘛但我們會不會因為他沒有用政府採購法就說你這裡面有弊端就要副委員或者是徐縣長出來說清楚講明白指控他這裡面有弊案指控他要圖利誰我們不會嘛\n\n08:43.513 --> 09:05.840\n尤其是指控的對象是這種協助我們的這些人比如說捐款給花蓮的這些人被指責這就是一個捐助案嘛這就是一個捐助案嘛所以我們在這邊我要說這事情非常嚴肅我們希望外交部要能夠堅守立場今天我還剩時間不多我想請教跟外交部請教我們最近時間其實看到在南海\n\n09:06.940 --> 09:13.494\n美國跟菲律賓之間有一個這個肩並肩的計畫我想部長其實有注意到吧對這個是聯合演習這聯合演習的計畫裡面我們其實現在看到\n\n09:16.923 --> 09:41.513\n第一個在第一島鏈裡面我們過去其實在處理台灣到菲律賓這一段的時候其實我們看到好像有一些在海巡上面的合作計畫是不是部長我們跟很多其他的國家都有海巡合作是那現在我們在看到我自己看到在第一島鏈裡面假如我們現在跟菲律賓這邊也有開始相關的合作的話據我了解可能外交部這邊也有從中來協助\n\n09:43.194 --> 10:02.618\n那往下現在在越南跟菲律賓也開始締結一些更多其他的海上合作的關係甚至我們看到越南現在也在改善他跟美方之間的關係也許也有機會我們可以把我們海上合作的範圍甚至有沒有機會再往越南\n\n10:03.103 --> 10:09.568\n非常謝謝委員我們的海巡能夠跟其他國家來進行合作不管是桌上的或者是士兵的那這些都是我們希望能夠來促進的但是有關於媒體出現的那個我們台灣跟菲律賓的這種合作的這個部分\n\n10:27.543 --> 10:35.707\n現在在這些合作的機會確實出現了對我們來講相對有利的地緣政治的契機我們很希望不管外交部不管國防部或者是我們的海巡只要有機會我們就應該擴展我們合作的版圖\n\n10:54.858 --> 11:12.087\n也包括部長接下來可能會到國安會當然以後國安會秘書長不一定會在這邊來接受質詢可是有機會我們希望我們能夠盡力爭取把我們第一島鏈的防線尤其是對於威權國家及全國家的這個防線能夠做得更加的堅實\n\n11:13.208 --> 11:37.970\n好那我認為也許我們是存在這個機會但用什麼方式我們可能沒有辦法用正式的國防的方式但怎麼樣一個彈性的方式符合我們國家利益跟我們當前困境需求的方式這部分當然接下來也要請吳部長到下一個職位的時候必須多費心可是我們非常非常期待這件事情也請吳部長把這件事情也許再帶到你下一個職位的時候再來做一個更準密符合我們需求的規劃好不好\n\n11:38.370 --> 11:38.570\n謝謝部長空位有期\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.623,"end":24.694,"text":"請外交部吳部長請吳部長洪委員好部長今天我看了前面幾個委員大家在你這應該是最後一次在外交國防委員會的詢答那當然我們今天的題目原本是要談WHA的問題可是其實確實這兩個禮拜"},{"start":29.077,"end":43.777,"text":"針對這個密件的洩密的事件我認為這是一個非常非常嚴肅的事情尤其是未來即便可能部長不在外交部了不管後面的次長或後面的新任的部長來"},{"start":45.319,"end":70.977,"text":"外交部還是會有很多機密跟密件的文件這裡面涉及到相關該如何監督該如何維護這個國會跟行政方面對於密件怎麼去處理的這個我覺得是非常嚴肅的問題因為這個問題沒有處理好後面連帶的其實可能是我們的國安或者是我們的國際關係都會受到影響的事情所以我這邊有幾件事情要跟部長再來請教"},{"start":72.978,"end":73.638,"text":"我今年已經領教到了"},{"start":102.265,"end":115.129,"text":"來給外交部壓力然後施壓外交部逼得外交部要自己劇狀跟檢察官說我希望不起訴外交部希望不起訴我要這邊說我今天不特別針對個人但我要先請問現在國民黨的吳釗燮 吳宗憲吳宗憲召委講這樣子的話外交部的反應是什麼"},{"start":128.867,"end":155.587,"text":"我們外交部並沒有針對這個事情討論但是我個人的這個看法就是說我們台灣的這個憲政體制是一個三權分立相互制衡的一個體制那如果說用壓迫行政部門去處理去干涉那個司法權的話那這個會讓三個權力的相互制衡整個亂了套啦我是覺得說這個是萬萬不可那尤其是這種"},{"start":156.288,"end":160.49,"text":"不然我看到這新聞的時候第一時間我感覺現在在野黨是已經變成是一個政治黑幫了嗎在我的印象中只有黑幫才會用這種聚眾為事的做法"},{"start":185.214,"end":195.306,"text":"來去為一個違法者施壓來為一個違法者開脫我真的覺得好像是遇到了黑幫啊這事情很簡單我們是國會議員在國會的殿堂就是談法律問題"},{"start":203.612,"end":226.231,"text":"第一個問題部長是到底這份文件你們2月23號送進立法院這份文件是不是密件列密是密是列密我也收到了上面蓋了一個大大的密這第一個第二個徐委員有沒有涉嫌洩密因為被媒體拍到就你們來看從媒體照片上面看出他其實有把他秀出來對不對是第三個"},{"start":228.331,"end":256.982,"text":"這個事情我們可以自己回答包括馬文俊委員也在機密文件在國會有沒有合法的監督程序我們可以直接說有這個案子進到立法院是照條約締結法來被查如果委員會要來監督其實就是被查改審查大家就可以審查大家就可以監督就這麼簡單所以國會是有監督密件的程序的下面一個問題"},{"start":259.298,"end":265.239,"text":"徐委員有沒有用合法監督密件的監督程序沒有有程序合法的程序但他沒有用所以問題非常非常的簡單啊不是不能監督啊這跟不能監督根本是兩回事啊所以要把獵密就不能監督我聽不懂邏輯在哪裡第三點我要問外交部"},{"start":290.464,"end":299.072,"text":"徐委員在要跟你監督的時候他有沒有來私下找外交部討論希望用一個不公開的方式想要來詢問或者是來質詢質疑這一個"},{"start":302.64,"end":331.105,"text":"這份密件的文件的內容有或沒有?並沒有其實立法院有一些長官高層的長官私底下也有來問那我們就用機密的這個方式處理所以是可以用機密的方式用不公開的方式來處理但是徐委員應該沒有對不對?沒有好我也確定馬文俊委員排的機密會議或者是外交國防排的機密會議就沒有問到這一題嘛所以有這麼多可以來監督機密文件的方法對不起都沒有使用只用了一個做法就是在媒體上面公開"},{"start":332.225,"end":351.733,"text":"其實我真的不知道這有什麼好爭的我再問一個問題徐委員有沒有拿著各種的他想要講的理由來跟外交部說這是不是應該解密他有沒有來請求解密沒有在他公布前有嗎沒有也沒有要求解密所以我真的不知道現在在這個事情在吵什麼道理這麼明確明明就有合法監督的方法你不用用這種做法"},{"start":360.623,"end":365.004,"text":"現在再要聚眾來為事聚眾來施壓我不知道國民黨這是在做什麼我要跟大家說我覺得這是一個非常嚴肅的問題這牽涉到未來我們的國會到底要怎麼監督密件如果未來密件的監督的方法全部都是直接把它拿在媒體前面公開然後只要犯了法我們就繞人來施壓部長如果這是可以這樣幹的話"},{"start":391.598,"end":417.596,"text":"那以後臺灣中華民國還有什麼密件還有什麼機密可言這是非常嚴肅的問題我今天在這邊為什麼要用這個態度我覺得這是沒有模糊地帶的事情部長我不知道你所轄下的公務員接下來會在這件事上承受多少壓力但我認為這條線在那邊清清楚楚沒有模糊地帶我不針對徐委員"},{"start":422.045,"end":446.414,"text":"我只針對這一個洩密的違法行為今天是任何的委員就算是民進黨的委員做了這件事情我們也不允許所以部長我要麻煩你也許你下個星期你就有另外一個職務但你狹下的公務人員你狹下的這些文官們還是會接下來面對這件事情我希望外交部在這件事情"},{"start":448.473,"end":448.493,"text":"這個對我們來講"},{"start":473.109,"end":500.102,"text":"所謂的這些機密的東西就是涉及到我們國家的安全國家的利益的事情我們的同仁自己都有這種很高度的自我期待就是說這些事情我們要盡量去保護剛剛國民黨的委員甚至在問說為什麼這個捐助案沒有用政府採購法這道理非常簡單嘛請問這次0403地震大家社會上面捐了一堆錢給花蓮縣政府"},{"start":501.528,"end":521.69,"text":"華聯縣政府收到這些捐款以後他的支出是不是都有用政府採購法當然沒有嘛但我們會不會因為他沒有用政府採購法就說你這裡面有弊端就要副委員或者是徐縣長出來說清楚講明白指控他這裡面有弊案指控他要圖利誰我們不會嘛"},{"start":523.513,"end":545.84,"text":"尤其是指控的對象是這種協助我們的這些人比如說捐款給花蓮的這些人被指責這就是一個捐助案嘛這就是一個捐助案嘛所以我們在這邊我要說這事情非常嚴肅我們希望外交部要能夠堅守立場今天我還剩時間不多我想請教跟外交部請教我們最近時間其實看到在南海"},{"start":546.94,"end":553.494,"text":"美國跟菲律賓之間有一個這個肩並肩的計畫我想部長其實有注意到吧對 這個是聯合演習這聯合演習的計畫裡面我們其實現在看到"},{"start":556.923,"end":581.513,"text":"第一個在第一島鏈裡面我們過去其實在處理台灣到菲律賓這一段的時候其實我們看到好像有一些在海巡上面的合作計畫是不是部長我們跟很多其他的國家都有海巡合作是那現在我們在看到我自己看到在第一島鏈裡面假如我們現在跟菲律賓這邊也有開始相關的合作的話據我了解可能外交部這邊也有從中來協助"},{"start":583.194,"end":602.618,"text":"那往下現在在越南跟菲律賓也開始締結一些更多其他的海上合作的關係甚至我們看到越南現在也在改善他跟美方之間的關係也許也有機會我們可以把我們海上合作的範圍甚至有沒有機會再往越南"},{"start":603.103,"end":609.568,"text":"非常謝謝委員我們的海巡能夠跟其他國家來進行合作不管是桌上的或者是士兵的那這些都是我們希望能夠來促進的但是有關於媒體出現的那個我們台灣跟菲律賓的這種合作的這個部分"},{"start":627.543,"end":635.707,"text":"現在在這些合作的機會確實出現了對我們來講相對有利的 地緣政治的契機我們很希望不管外交部 不管國防部 或者是我們的海巡只要有機會 我們就應該擴展我們合作的版圖"},{"start":654.858,"end":672.087,"text":"也包括部長接下來可能會到國安會當然以後國安會秘書長不一定會在這邊來接受質詢可是有機會我們希望我們能夠盡力爭取把我們第一島鏈的防線尤其是對於威權國家及全國家的這個防線能夠做得更加的堅實"},{"start":673.208,"end":697.97,"text":"好 那我認為也許我們是存在這個機會但用什麼方式我們可能沒有辦法用正式的國防的方式但怎麼樣一個彈性的方式符合我們國家利益跟我們當前困境需求的方式這部分當然接下來也要請吳部長到下一個職位的時候必須多費心可是我們非常非常期待這件事情也請吳部長把這件事情也許再帶到你下一個職位的時候再來做一個更準密符合我們需求的規劃好不好"},{"start":698.37,"end":698.57,"text":"謝謝部長 空位有期"}]}}}}