{"id":152532,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152532","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0bd6c930f3b5b1b6cad847f93a84224faabc25b9e10ac7e45fe680d73defe47205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:57:41 - 12:08:56","影片長度":"00:11:15","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）執行現況」，併請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-20"},"duration":675,"end_time":"2024-05-15T12:08:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T11:57:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":740,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時57分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。我上次在質詢的時候，跟部長交換過意見。"],["吳部長釗燮：有。"],["黃委員國昌：我們臺灣人非常的善良，世界各地需要臺灣人的協助，我們永遠願意伸出溫暖的雙手。上次跟部長建立了一個原則是說，我們援外的這些計畫，廉正跟透明的基本要求非常重要，上次部長你也表示肯定嘛！"],["吳部長釗燮：對。"],["黃委員國昌：好。上次4月15號在外交及國防委員會的詢答，我提到我們臺灣透過CABEI所提出的各式各樣援助，甚至對於我們的前邦交國宏都拉斯所提供的一些援助，那我也給您時間，也裁示說您兩個禮拜之內，書面報告要給我們，但我到目前為止還沒拿到。"],["吳部長釗燮：跟委員報告一下，上次質詢之後，我們就有很積極地去跟CABEI討論，因為有一些涉及到很多細節的部分在跟他們做往返，很快、很快就會上網了。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，我知道您明天就要總辭了，您要到另外一個位置去，但我覺得在國會我們建立一個基本的原則，我覺得是重要的，就是說到要做到。"],["吳部長釗燮：對，我們會儘量做到。"],["黃委員國昌：如果說到沒有做到，事先來解釋，可能是有必要的吧！我到今天站在這個質詢臺以前，我癡癡地等，我等不到東西，外交部沒有遵守4月15號的承諾，也沒有人來說明，部長，您覺得這樣OK嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：這樣子可能不是很好，但是跟委員報告，我們有在努力，而且很快就會上網了，應該……"],["黃委員國昌：分兩個部分，你要做的努力，你去做努力，而且我老實說，這個承諾不是在這一次國會才做的。上一屆國會的時候，台灣民眾黨的邱臣遠委員其實也提出了這樣的要求，只是我們那個時候針對我們對於CABEI的援助跟國際的反貪腐組織OCCRP開始合作，在我們跟國際反貪腐組織一起合作的計畫release出來以後，部長您可以去看，那個合作計畫在國際媒體圈其實引發了相當大的迴響，也促成了CABEI進一步的改革，當然Mossi也是因為那件事情，其實大部分的國家都不支持他了。但我要說的是，真的只有一個非常簡單的道理，就是你們遇到困難在時間之內東西交不出來，我相信絕大多數的立委都很理性，你只要有說明，我們都可以給寬限，但連講都沒講這樣就不對。"],["吳部長釗燮：我們同仁說已經有提供書面資料了。"],["黃委員國昌：在哪裡？"],["吳部長釗燮：我們當初質詢結束之後，幾天之內就已經提供書面資料給委員辦公室了。"],["黃委員國昌：我必須要跟部長講，我會再回去查，但我今天在這邊質詢，到目前為止，我還沒有收到那樣的list，我會後會再跟外交部的同仁check到底是哪一個環節出了問題。"],["吳部長釗燮：這個函我們本身會有本文，我們也會調出來讓委員知道。"],["黃委員國昌：好，可以。第二個，我上次在質詢的時候也提到宏國第一夫人遭貪腐判刑，之前是判得比較久，到2022年的時候14年for corruption，在上面你應該看得很清楚，上次我提到我們給宏都拉斯援外的計畫，被他們的夫人拿去貪腐，您上次給我的答復是「那不是錢，跟我們這邊沒有關係」，但我後來去調聯合國針對宏國所成立的fight against corruption委員會所提出來的調查報告寫得很清楚，錢的確是我們提供給宏都拉斯的，與您上次跟我所做的回復完全不一樣，部長，可不可以請您說明一下。"],["吳部長釗燮：這個部分我倒是沒有注意到聯合國的這份報告，我請我們實際上在掌握這個業務的同仁跟委員說明。"],["黃委員國昌：好。"],["鄭司長力城：跟委員報告，當初這個案子爆發的時候是計畫已經執行完之後，當地的新聞揭露有17萬被貪污的錢可能是來自我方，當時因為還有邦交，我們的同仁立刻就去跟檢調單位關切，檢調單位說因為還在清查過程當中，他們不排除有來自我方的錢，但是最後的判決書上面沒有指陳款項的來源……"],["黃委員國昌：等一下、等一下、等一下，先停一下喔！您現在看，我螢幕上面秀出來的是那個委員會它們做出來的調查報告，它講得很具體喔！是從2011年到2014年，前總統任內的時候有高達400萬美金是來自各種來源的捐款，包括來自臺灣，當然我們在外面的外交處境很艱困，所以它們委員會寫中國臺灣，我自己看了也不是很舒服，但我們就事論事，就是人家的調查說有來自臺灣，但部長跟我說跟臺灣沒有關係，所以我就覺得很困惑了。好，我們進一步去看，2022年最近的一個判決，Bonilla被判處14年有期徒刑的時候，在這個判決書裡面，現在我放在左手邊的是他們法院在判決以後所公布的新聞稿，在新聞稿裡面說2010年到2014年啟動宏都拉斯兒童鞋子與制服計畫，在這個計畫裡面他簽了假合約，把錢給套出來，來，我具體地問這個計畫是不是臺灣支持的？"],["吳部長釗燮：我請我們的司長來回復。"],["黃委員國昌：是，可以。我為什麼說援外計畫要公開透明？我查了預算書、我到了國合會的網站，所有國內可以找的公開資訊，我負責任地講我全部都找完了，我不知道，但那邊的判決書、外媒的報導這個計畫是臺灣support的，所以我要請教一下外交部，這個宏都拉斯兒童鞋子與制服計畫是不是臺灣support的？因為判決書講得很清楚，錢是從這邊污的。"],["鄭司長力城：報告委員，我們跟第一夫人辦公室的很多社福計畫裡面確實有類似的計畫，但是他貪污的錢是不是都是從臺灣的這個部分……"],["黃委員國昌：等一下、等一下，這是兩個不同的概念喔！都是臺灣的跟他貪污的錢有從臺灣來的，這是兩個不同的概念嘛！我從頭到尾沒有說都是臺灣來的喔！那個委員會的調查報告寫了，來源很多，包括了外媒，那調查委員會特別點出是從臺灣援助的這個計畫來的，因為我希望把客觀的事實弄清楚，今天我們援助的錢被他們前總統夫人污了，不是我們的錯，是他們的錯，這個我不會因為錢被他們的前總統夫人污了，責怪我們外交部的同仁。我向來就事論事，做錯事的是他們的前總統夫人，怎麼可以把臺灣人要援助宏都拉斯小孩子買衣服、買鞋子的錢都污了，可惡！有罪的是他們的前總統夫人，但問題是什麼？問題是這件事情被污了，我希望臺灣要有立場，要有立場，我們有立場是因為污錢的是他們的前總統夫人，臺灣人可以站直腰桿，跟宏國人民說我們很痛心啊！我們要援助你們小朋友的就這樣子被污了，這個是我覺得我們應該有的立場，而不是發生這件事情以後……這是客觀的事實，在國會裡面，部長說這個錢跟臺灣沒有關係，但跟外媒的報導、跟調查委員會的報告，甚至連他們法院release的新聞稿，全部都不符合啊！部長，你懂我的意思嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：我知道。"],["黃委員國昌：這個事情是不是可以請外交部的同仁再確定一下？因為我已經從外媒、調查委員會、法院的新聞稿，我全部都把事情給找出來了，再確定一下，再確定一下，錢是不是從臺灣來？如果錢是從臺灣來的，我相信我們挺直腰桿說該說的話，會贏得國際社會的尊重。"],["吳部長釗燮：好，兩點跟委員回應，以前也曾經有一些媒體報導跟宏國相關的這個事情，最後我們去查是沒有查到跟我們有相關，委員既然再提出來，我請我們的同仁再來查，這是第一件事情。第二件事情，我們也非常反對挪用我們要協助其他國家人民的錢，作為他們私人的資金，我們是絕對反對的，如果有這些事情的話，我們加以譴責。"],["黃委員國昌：好，非常好，其實我要的只有這個態度，因為我知道從現實上面來看錢都被人家污走了，要討也討不回來，但我們在進行外交工作的時候，這一點我們的原則要挺直腰桿勇敢地講，我覺得這樣子絕對會得到國際社會的尊重。至於剛剛部長所講的第一點，因為你要離任了嘛，但是你可不可以承諾，請外交部的同仁把它查清楚了以後，給我一個書面報告正式的回復？"],["吳部長釗燮：這個沒有問題，我們的同仁會努力。"],["黃委員國昌：這個沒有問題嘛，需要多久？"],["吳部長釗燮：兩個禮拜。"],["黃委員國昌：兩個禮拜，好，謝謝。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員。"],["主席（陳委員永康代）：下面請馬文君委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-20","speakers":["馬文君","邱志偉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","羅智強","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","林憶君","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","黃國昌","陳菁徽","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","李坤城","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","楊瓊瓔","范雲","陳培瑜","王正旭","林月琴","牛煦庭","翁曉玲","葉元之","張雅琳","林思銘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（ 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\"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 434.84, \"end\": 435.0, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 435.0, \"end\": 435.16, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 435.16, \"end\": 435.26, \"score\": 0.612}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 435.26, \"end\": 435.4, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"找\", \"start\": 435.4, \"end\": 435.561, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 435.561, \"end\": 435.761, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 435.761, \"end\": 435.961, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 435.961, \"end\": 436.121, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 436.121, \"end\": 436.241, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 436.241, \"end\": 436.361, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 436.361, \"end\": 436.461, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 436.461, \"end\": 436.482, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 436.482, \"end\": 436.502, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 436.502, \"end\": 436.522, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"判\", \"start\": 436.522, \"end\": 436.542, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 436.542, \"end\": 436.562, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"媒\", \"start\": 436.562, \"end\": 436.582, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 436.582, \"end\": 436.622, \"score\": 0.253}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"導\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"畫\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 436.622, \"end\": 436.762, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 436.762, \"end\": 436.802, \"score\": 0.492}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"s\", \"start\": 436.802, \"end\": 436.842, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"u\", \"start\": 436.842, \"end\": 437.142, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"p\", \"start\": 437.142, \"end\": 437.162, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"p\", \"start\": 437.162, \"end\": 437.302, \"score\": 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\"判\", \"start\": 452.374, \"end\": 452.534, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 452.534, \"end\": 452.634, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 452.634, \"end\": 452.754, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 452.754, \"end\": 452.975, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 452.975, \"end\": 453.235, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"錢\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 453.235, \"end\": 453.395, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"汙\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 453.395, \"end\": 453.415, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 455.785, \"end\": 476.694, \"text\": \"報告委員,我們在跟第一夫人辦公室的很多社福計畫裡面確實有類似的計畫,但是他貪污的錢是不是都是台灣的這個部分?等一下,這是兩個不同的概念,都是台灣的跟他貪污的錢有從台灣來的,這是兩個不同的概念,我從頭到尾沒有說都是台灣來的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 455.785, \"end\": 455.965, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 455.965, \"end\": 456.165, 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{\"word\": \"禮\"}, {\"word\": \"拜\", \"start\": 667.473, \"end\": 667.553, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 667.553, \"end\": 667.653, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 667.653, \"end\": 667.833, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 667.833, \"end\": 667.853, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,406 --> 00:00:24,221\n現在主席麻煩有請部長請部長法務委員好部長我上次在質詢的時候跟部長交換過意見我們台灣台灣人非常的善良世界各地需要台灣人的協助我們永遠是願意伸出我們溫暖的雙手\n\n2\n00:00:25,622 --> 00:00:46,485\n上次跟部長建立了一個原則是說我們在員外的時候的這些計畫廉政跟透明的基本要求非常的重要上次部長你也表示肯定嘛那上一次4月15號在外交國防委員會裡面的時候的詢答我也提到了我們台灣\n\n3\n00:00:47,686 --> 00:01:10,308\n透過咖啡所提出的各式各樣的援助甚至對於當初我們的前邦交國洪都拉斯所提供的一些援助那我也給您時間那也才是了說您兩個禮拜之內書面包要給我們但我到目前為止沒拿到\n\n4\n00:01:11,785 --> 00:01:38,542\n跟委員報告一下我們其實那個上次的諮詢之後我們就有很積極的去跟卡貝去跟他們討論那因為有一些涉及到很多細節的部分在跟他們做那個往返那很快很快就會上網了很快部長我知道您明天就要總辭了那您要到另外一個位置去但我覺得在國會我們建立一個基本的原則我覺得是重要的就是說到要做到\n\n5\n00:01:39,873 --> 00:02:01,262\n如果說到沒有做到事先來解釋可能是有必要的嘛我到今天站在這個質詢台以前我痴痴的等我等不到東西外交部沒有遵守那個時候4月15號的承諾也沒有人來說明部長您覺得這樣OK嗎\n\n6\n00:02:03,173 --> 00:02:23,315\n這樣子可能不是很好但是跟委員報告我們有在努力而且很快的就會上網了分兩個部分嘛你要做的努力你去做努力而且我老實說齁這個承諾不是在這一次國會的時候才做的喔上一屆國會的時候台灣民眾黨的邱承遠委員其實也提出了這樣的要求\n\n7\n00:02:24,264 --> 00:02:36,917\n那只是我們那個時候開始在針對我們對於卡貝的援助跟國際的反貪腐組織OCCPR我們開始合作的時候那個時候對於我們\n\n8\n00:02:40,060 --> 00:03:07,272\n跟國際的反貪腐組織我們一起合作的計畫release出來了以後其實部長您可以去看那個合作計畫在國際的媒體圈其實引發了相當大的迴響也促成了卡貝進一步的改革那當然啦MOSI也是因為那件事情其實大部分的國家都不支持他了但我要說的是真的只有一個非常簡單的道理就是\n\n9\n00:03:08,112 --> 00:03:11,093\n各位演講我們同仁說已經有提供書面的資料了在哪裡?你什麼時候提供?當天結束的時候大概兩天\n\n10\n00:03:33,261 --> 00:04:00,183\n我們當初就是那個質詢結束之後幾天之內就已經提供書面的這個資料給委員的辦公室了我必須要跟部長講我會再回去查但我今天在這邊質詢的時候我到目前為止我還沒有收到那樣的list我會後會再跟外交部的同仁check到底是哪一個環節出了問題我們本身會有本文我們這個也調出來讓委員知道好可以第二個\n\n11\n00:04:01,204 --> 00:04:18,849\n我上次在質詢的時候也提到紅國的第一夫人遭貪腐判刑之前是判了比較久到2022年的時候14年forcorruption在上面你應該看得很清楚上次我提到說\n\n12\n00:04:21,550 --> 00:04:41,812\n我們給宏都拉斯基本上面的員外的計畫被他們的夫人拿去貪腐你上次給我的答覆是那不是錢跟我們這邊沒有關係但我後來去調我後來去調聯合國針對在宏國他們所成立的\n\n13\n00:04:42,973 --> 00:05:08,151\n去FightAgainstCorruption的這個委員會他們出來的調查報告寫得很清楚他出來的調查報告錢的確是我們提供給宏都拉斯的跟您上次跟我所做的回覆完全不一樣部長可不可以請您說明一下這個部分倒是我沒有注意到那個聯合國的這個報告我請我們的同仁實際上在掌握這個業務的同仁跟委員說明好\n\n14\n00:05:11,885 --> 00:05:35,793\n當初在這個案子爆發的時候是計劃已經執行完之後那當地的新聞有揭露說可能有17萬的那一個被貪污的錢是可能來自我方那我們的同仁當時因為還有邦交立刻就去跟那個檢調單位那個關切檢調單位說因為還在清查的過程當中他們不排除由來自我方的錢\n\n15\n00:05:36,533 --> 00:05:47,848\n但是最後的判決書上面沒有指成那個款項的來源那等一下等一下等一下先停一下喔您現在看齁我螢幕上面秀出來的\n\n16\n00:05:49,059 --> 00:06:17,826\n那個是那個委員會他們做出來的調查報告他講的很具體喔是從2011年到2014年前總統任內的時候有高達400萬美金來自各種來源的捐款包括來自台灣那當然啦我們在外面的外交處境很艱困所以他們的委員會寫中國台灣我自己看了也不是很舒服但我們就是認識就是人家的調查說有來自台灣\n\n17\n00:06:18,826 --> 00:06:39,722\n但部長跟我說跟台灣沒有關係所以我就覺得很困惑了我們進一步的去看說2022年就最近的一個判決柏妮娜被判處14年有期徒刑的時候在這個判決書裡面現在我放在左手邊的這個是他們的法院在判決了以後所公布的新聞稿\n\n18\n00:06:40,643 --> 00:06:59,390\n在新聞稿裡面呢寫說2010年到2014年啟動宏都拉斯兒童鞋子與制服計劃那在這個計劃裡面他簽了假合約把錢給套出來然後我具體的問這個計劃是不是台灣支持的我請我們的市長來\n\n19\n00:07:02,648 --> 00:07:17,382\n因為我吼我為什麼說員外的計畫要公開透明我查了預算書我到了國和會的網站所以所有國內可以找的公開資訊我負責任的講我全部都找完了我不知道但那邊的判決書外媒的報導這個計畫是台灣support的\n\n20\n00:07:25,123 --> 00:07:33,415\n所以我要請教一下外交部這個洪都拉斯兒童鞋子與制服計畫是不是台灣support的因為判決書講得很清楚錢是從這邊汙的\n\n21\n00:07:35,785 --> 00:07:56,694\n報告委員,我們在跟第一夫人辦公室的很多社福計畫裡面確實有類似的計畫,但是他貪污的錢是不是都是台灣的這個部分?等一下,這是兩個不同的概念,都是台灣的跟他貪污的錢有從台灣來的,這是兩個不同的概念,我從頭到尾沒有說都是台灣來的\n\n22\n00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:20,078\n那個委員會的調查報告寫了來源很多包括了在外媒在調查委員會特別點出了是從台灣援助的這個計畫來的因為我希望把客觀的事實弄清楚今天我們援助的錢被他們前總統夫人污了不是我們的錯是他們的錯\n\n23\n00:08:21,682 --> 00:08:41,114\n這個我不會因為說錢被他們的前總統夫人汙了責怪我們外交部的統人我上來就事論事做錯事的是他們的前總統夫人怎麼可以把台灣人要援助宏都拉斯小孩子買衣服買鞋子的錢都汙了可惡有罪的是他們的前總統夫人但問題是什麼但問題是這件事情被汙了\n\n24\n00:08:52,789 --> 00:09:20,032\n臺灣我希望要有立場要有立場我們有立場是屋前的是他們的前總統夫人臺灣人可以停我們可以暫時腰桿跟紅國人民說我們很痛心我們要援助你們小朋友的就這樣子被屋了這個是我覺得我們應該有的立場而不是發生了這件事情了以後客觀的事實\n\n25\n00:09:22,130 --> 00:09:48,922\n在國會裡面部長說這個錢跟台灣沒有關係但跟外媒的報導跟調查委員會的報告甚至連他們法院release的新聞稿全部都不符合啊部長您懂我的意思嗎我知道這個事情是不是可以請外交部的同仁再確定一下因為我已經從外媒調查委員會的法院的新聞稿\n\n26\n00:09:50,031 --> 00:09:50,372\n李卓人議員\n\n27\n00:10:05,411 --> 00:10:34,351\n兩點跟委員回應就是以前也曾經有一些媒體報導跟黃國相關的這個事情那到最後我們去查是沒有查到說有跟我們有相關那委員既然再提出來了我請我們的同仁再來查這是第一件事情第二件事情我們也非常反對挪用我們要協助其他國家的這個人民的錢作為他們的那個私人的這個資金這個我們是絕對反對的那如果有這些事情的話我們加以譴責\n\n28\n00:10:36,052 --> 00:10:59,466\n非常好其實我要的只有這個態度因為我知道從現實上面錢都被人家汙走了要討什麼也討不回來但我們在進行外交工作的時候這一點我們的原則要挺直腰桿勇敢的講我覺得這樣子絕對會得到國際社會的尊重至於剛剛部長所講的第一點因為你要離任了吧\n\n29\n00:11:00,006 --> 00:11:07,853\n但是你可不可以承諾說外交部的同仁把他查清楚了以後給我一個書面報告正式的回覆這個沒有問題這個沒有問題嗎需要多久兩個禮拜兩個禮拜好謝謝好謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n406\t24221\t現在主席 麻煩有請部長請部長法務委員好部長我上次在質詢的時候跟部長交換過意見我們台灣台灣人非常的善良世界各地需要台灣人的協助我們永遠是願意伸出我們溫暖的雙手\n25622\t46485\t上次跟部長建立了一個原則是說我們在員外的時候的這些計畫廉政跟透明的基本要求非常的重要上次部長你也表示肯定嘛那上一次4月15號在外交國防委員會裡面的時候的詢答我也提到了我們台灣\n47686\t70308\t透過咖啡所提出的各式各樣的援助甚至對於當初我們的前邦交國洪都拉斯所提供的一些援助那我也給您時間那也才是了說您兩個禮拜之內書面包要給我們但我到目前為止沒拿到\n71785\t98542\t跟委員報告一下我們其實那個上次的諮詢之後我們就有很積極的去跟卡貝去跟他們討論那因為有一些涉及到很多細節的部分在跟他們做那個往返那很快很快就會上網了很快部長我知道您明天就要總辭了那您要到另外一個位置去但我覺得在國會我們建立一個基本的原則我覺得是重要的就是說到要做到\n99873\t121262\t如果說到沒有做到事先來解釋可能是有必要的嘛我到今天站在這個質詢台以前我痴痴的等我等不到東西外交部沒有遵守那個時候4月15號的承諾也沒有人來說明部長您覺得這樣OK嗎\n123173\t143315\t這樣子可能不是很好但是跟委員報告我們有在努力而且很快的就會上網了分兩個部分嘛你要做的努力你去做努力而且我老實說齁這個承諾不是在這一次國會的時候才做的喔上一屆國會的時候台灣民眾黨的邱承遠委員其實也提出了這樣的要求\n144264\t156917\t那只是我們那個時候開始在針對我們對於卡貝的援助跟國際的反貪腐組織OCCPR我們開始合作的時候那個時候對於我們\n160060\t187272\t跟國際的反貪腐組織我們一起合作的計畫release出來了以後其實部長您可以去看那個合作計畫在國際的媒體圈其實引發了相當大的迴響也促成了卡貝進一步的改革那當然啦MOSI也是因為那件事情其實大部分的國家都不支持他了但我要說的是真的只有一個非常簡單的道理就是\n188112\t191093\t各位演講我們同仁說已經有提供書面的資料了在哪裡?你什麼時候提供?當天結束的時候大概兩天\n213261\t240183\t我們當初就是那個質詢結束之後幾天之內就已經提供書面的這個資料給委員的辦公室了我必須要跟部長講我會再回去查但我今天在這邊質詢的時候我到目前為止我還沒有收到那樣的list我會後會再跟外交部的同仁check到底是哪一個環節出了問題我們本身會有本文我們這個也調出來讓委員知道好 可以第二個\n241204\t258849\t我上次在質詢的時候也提到紅國的第一夫人遭貪腐判刑之前是判了比較久到2022年的時候14年for corruption在上面你應該看得很清楚上次我提到說\n261550\t281812\t我們給宏都拉斯基本上面的員外的計畫被他們的夫人拿去貪腐你上次給我的答覆是那不是錢跟我們這邊沒有關係但我後來去調我後來去調聯合國針對在宏國他們所成立的\n282973\t308151\t去Fight Against Corruption的這個委員會他們出來的調查報告寫得很清楚他出來的調查報告錢的確是我們提供給宏都拉斯的跟您上次跟我所做的回覆完全不一樣部長可不可以請您說明一下這個部分倒是我沒有注意到那個聯合國的這個報告我請我們的同仁實際上在掌握這個業務的同仁跟委員說明好\n311885\t335793\t當初在這個案子爆發的時候是計劃已經執行完之後那當地的新聞有揭露說可能有17萬的那一個被貪污的錢是可能來自我方那我們的同仁當時因為還有邦交立刻就去跟那個檢調單位那個關切檢調單位說因為還在清查的過程當中他們不排除由來自我方的錢\n336533\t347848\t但是最後的判決書上面沒有指成那個款項的來源那等一下等一下等一下先停一下喔您現在看齁我螢幕上面秀出來的\n349059\t377826\t那個是那個委員會他們做出來的調查報告他講的很具體喔是從2011年到2014年前總統任內的時候有高達400萬美金來自各種來源的捐款包括來自台灣那當然啦我們在外面的外交處境很艱困所以他們的委員會寫中國台灣我自己看了也不是很舒服但我們就是認識就是人家的調查說有來自台灣\n378826\t399722\t但部長跟我說跟台灣沒有關係所以我就覺得很困惑了我們進一步的去看說2022年就最近的一個判決柏妮娜被判處14年有期徒刑的時候在這個判決書裡面現在我放在左手邊的這個是他們的法院在判決了以後所公布的新聞稿\n400643\t419390\t在新聞稿裡面呢 寫說2010年到2014年啟動宏都拉斯兒童鞋子與制服計劃那在這個計劃裡面他簽了假合約把錢給套出來然後我具體的問這個計劃是不是台灣支持的我請我們的市長來\n422648\t437382\t因為我吼我為什麼說員外的計畫要公開透明我查了預算書我到了國和會的網站所以所有國內可以找的公開資訊我負責任的講我全部都找完了我不知道但那邊的判決書外媒的報導這個計畫是台灣support的\n445123\t453415\t所以我要請教一下外交部這個洪都拉斯兒童鞋子與制服計畫是不是台灣support的因為判決書講得很清楚錢是從這邊汙的\n455785\t476694\t報告委員,我們在跟第一夫人辦公室的很多社福計畫裡面確實有類似的計畫,但是他貪污的錢是不是都是台灣的這個部分?等一下,這是兩個不同的概念,都是台灣的跟他貪污的錢有從台灣來的,這是兩個不同的概念,我從頭到尾沒有說都是台灣來的\n478240\t500078\t那個委員會的調查報告寫了來源很多包括了在外媒在調查委員會特別點出了是從台灣援助的這個計畫來的因為我希望把客觀的事實弄清楚今天我們援助的錢被他們前總統夫人污了不是我們的錯是他們的錯\n501682\t521114\t這個我不會因為說錢被他們的前總統夫人汙了責怪我們外交部的統人我上來就事論事做錯事的是他們的前總統夫人怎麼可以把台灣人要援助宏都拉斯小孩子買衣服買鞋子的錢都汙了可惡有罪的是他們的前總統夫人但問題是什麼但問題是這件事情被汙了\n532789\t560032\t臺灣我希望要有立場要有立場我們有立場是屋前的是他們的前總統夫人臺灣人可以停我們可以暫時腰桿跟紅國人民說我們很痛心我們要援助你們小朋友的就這樣子被屋了這個是我覺得我們應該有的立場而不是發生了這件事情了以後客觀的事實\n562130\t588922\t在國會裡面部長說這個錢跟台灣沒有關係但跟外媒的報導跟調查委員會的報告甚至連他們法院release的新聞稿全部都不符合啊部長您懂我的意思嗎我知道這個事情是不是可以請外交部的同仁再確定一下因為我已經從外媒調查委員會的法院的新聞稿\n590031\t590372\t李卓人議員\n605411\t634351\t兩點跟委員回應就是以前也曾經有一些媒體報導跟黃國相關的這個事情那到最後我們去查是沒有查到說有跟我們有相關那委員既然再提出來了我請我們的同仁再來查這是第一件事情第二件事情我們也非常反對挪用我們要協助其他國家的這個人民的錢作為他們的那個私人的這個資金這個我們是絕對反對的那如果有這些事情的話我們加以譴責\n636052\t659466\t非常好 其實我要的只有這個態度因為我知道從現實上面錢都被人家汙走了要討什麼也討不回來但我們在進行外交工作的時候這一點我們的原則要挺直腰桿勇敢的講我覺得這樣子絕對會得到國際社會的尊重至於剛剛部長所講的第一點因為你要離任了吧\n660006\t667853\t但是你可不可以承諾說外交部的同仁把他查清楚了以後給我一個書面報告正式的回覆這個沒有問題這個沒有問題嗎需要多久兩個禮拜兩個禮拜好謝謝好謝謝委員\n","txt":"現在主席 麻煩有請部長請部長法務委員好部長我上次在質詢的時候跟部長交換過意見我們台灣台灣人非常的善良世界各地需要台灣人的協助我們永遠是願意伸出我們溫暖的雙手\n上次跟部長建立了一個原則是說我們在員外的時候的這些計畫廉政跟透明的基本要求非常的重要上次部長你也表示肯定嘛那上一次4月15號在外交國防委員會裡面的時候的詢答我也提到了我們台灣\n透過咖啡所提出的各式各樣的援助甚至對於當初我們的前邦交國洪都拉斯所提供的一些援助那我也給您時間那也才是了說您兩個禮拜之內書面包要給我們但我到目前為止沒拿到\n跟委員報告一下我們其實那個上次的諮詢之後我們就有很積極的去跟卡貝去跟他們討論那因為有一些涉及到很多細節的部分在跟他們做那個往返那很快很快就會上網了很快部長我知道您明天就要總辭了那您要到另外一個位置去但我覺得在國會我們建立一個基本的原則我覺得是重要的就是說到要做到\n如果說到沒有做到事先來解釋可能是有必要的嘛我到今天站在這個質詢台以前我痴痴的等我等不到東西外交部沒有遵守那個時候4月15號的承諾也沒有人來說明部長您覺得這樣OK嗎\n這樣子可能不是很好但是跟委員報告我們有在努力而且很快的就會上網了分兩個部分嘛你要做的努力你去做努力而且我老實說齁這個承諾不是在這一次國會的時候才做的喔上一屆國會的時候台灣民眾黨的邱承遠委員其實也提出了這樣的要求\n那只是我們那個時候開始在針對我們對於卡貝的援助跟國際的反貪腐組織OCCPR我們開始合作的時候那個時候對於我們\n跟國際的反貪腐組織我們一起合作的計畫release出來了以後其實部長您可以去看那個合作計畫在國際的媒體圈其實引發了相當大的迴響也促成了卡貝進一步的改革那當然啦MOSI也是因為那件事情其實大部分的國家都不支持他了但我要說的是真的只有一個非常簡單的道理就是\n各位演講我們同仁說已經有提供書面的資料了在哪裡?你什麼時候提供?當天結束的時候大概兩天\n我們當初就是那個質詢結束之後幾天之內就已經提供書面的這個資料給委員的辦公室了我必須要跟部長講我會再回去查但我今天在這邊質詢的時候我到目前為止我還沒有收到那樣的list我會後會再跟外交部的同仁check到底是哪一個環節出了問題我們本身會有本文我們這個也調出來讓委員知道好 可以第二個\n我上次在質詢的時候也提到紅國的第一夫人遭貪腐判刑之前是判了比較久到2022年的時候14年for corruption在上面你應該看得很清楚上次我提到說\n我們給宏都拉斯基本上面的員外的計畫被他們的夫人拿去貪腐你上次給我的答覆是那不是錢跟我們這邊沒有關係但我後來去調我後來去調聯合國針對在宏國他們所成立的\n去Fight Against Corruption的這個委員會他們出來的調查報告寫得很清楚他出來的調查報告錢的確是我們提供給宏都拉斯的跟您上次跟我所做的回覆完全不一樣部長可不可以請您說明一下這個部分倒是我沒有注意到那個聯合國的這個報告我請我們的同仁實際上在掌握這個業務的同仁跟委員說明好\n當初在這個案子爆發的時候是計劃已經執行完之後那當地的新聞有揭露說可能有17萬的那一個被貪污的錢是可能來自我方那我們的同仁當時因為還有邦交立刻就去跟那個檢調單位那個關切檢調單位說因為還在清查的過程當中他們不排除由來自我方的錢\n但是最後的判決書上面沒有指成那個款項的來源那等一下等一下等一下先停一下喔您現在看齁我螢幕上面秀出來的\n那個是那個委員會他們做出來的調查報告他講的很具體喔是從2011年到2014年前總統任內的時候有高達400萬美金來自各種來源的捐款包括來自台灣那當然啦我們在外面的外交處境很艱困所以他們的委員會寫中國台灣我自己看了也不是很舒服但我們就是認識就是人家的調查說有來自台灣\n但部長跟我說跟台灣沒有關係所以我就覺得很困惑了我們進一步的去看說2022年就最近的一個判決柏妮娜被判處14年有期徒刑的時候在這個判決書裡面現在我放在左手邊的這個是他們的法院在判決了以後所公布的新聞稿\n在新聞稿裡面呢 寫說2010年到2014年啟動宏都拉斯兒童鞋子與制服計劃那在這個計劃裡面他簽了假合約把錢給套出來然後我具體的問這個計劃是不是台灣支持的我請我們的市長來\n因為我吼我為什麼說員外的計畫要公開透明我查了預算書我到了國和會的網站所以所有國內可以找的公開資訊我負責任的講我全部都找完了我不知道但那邊的判決書外媒的報導這個計畫是台灣support的\n所以我要請教一下外交部這個洪都拉斯兒童鞋子與制服計畫是不是台灣support的因為判決書講得很清楚錢是從這邊汙的\n報告委員,我們在跟第一夫人辦公室的很多社福計畫裡面確實有類似的計畫,但是他貪污的錢是不是都是台灣的這個部分?等一下,這是兩個不同的概念,都是台灣的跟他貪污的錢有從台灣來的,這是兩個不同的概念,我從頭到尾沒有說都是台灣來的\n那個委員會的調查報告寫了來源很多包括了在外媒在調查委員會特別點出了是從台灣援助的這個計畫來的因為我希望把客觀的事實弄清楚今天我們援助的錢被他們前總統夫人污了不是我們的錯是他們的錯\n這個我不會因為說錢被他們的前總統夫人汙了責怪我們外交部的統人我上來就事論事做錯事的是他們的前總統夫人怎麼可以把台灣人要援助宏都拉斯小孩子買衣服買鞋子的錢都汙了可惡有罪的是他們的前總統夫人但問題是什麼但問題是這件事情被汙了\n臺灣我希望要有立場要有立場我們有立場是屋前的是他們的前總統夫人臺灣人可以停我們可以暫時腰桿跟紅國人民說我們很痛心我們要援助你們小朋友的就這樣子被屋了這個是我覺得我們應該有的立場而不是發生了這件事情了以後客觀的事實\n在國會裡面部長說這個錢跟台灣沒有關係但跟外媒的報導跟調查委員會的報告甚至連他們法院release的新聞稿全部都不符合啊部長您懂我的意思嗎我知道這個事情是不是可以請外交部的同仁再確定一下因為我已經從外媒調查委員會的法院的新聞稿\n李卓人議員\n兩點跟委員回應就是以前也曾經有一些媒體報導跟黃國相關的這個事情那到最後我們去查是沒有查到說有跟我們有相關那委員既然再提出來了我請我們的同仁再來查這是第一件事情第二件事情我們也非常反對挪用我們要協助其他國家的這個人民的錢作為他們的那個私人的這個資金這個我們是絕對反對的那如果有這些事情的話我們加以譴責\n非常好 其實我要的只有這個態度因為我知道從現實上面錢都被人家汙走了要討什麼也討不回來但我們在進行外交工作的時候這一點我們的原則要挺直腰桿勇敢的講我覺得這樣子絕對會得到國際社會的尊重至於剛剛部長所講的第一點因為你要離任了吧\n但是你可不可以承諾說外交部的同仁把他查清楚了以後給我一個書面報告正式的回覆這個沒有問題這個沒有問題嗎需要多久兩個禮拜兩個禮拜好謝謝好謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.406 --> 00:24.221\n現在主席麻煩有請部長請部長法務委員好部長我上次在質詢的時候跟部長交換過意見我們台灣台灣人非常的善良世界各地需要台灣人的協助我們永遠是願意伸出我們溫暖的雙手\n\n00:25.622 --> 00:46.485\n上次跟部長建立了一個原則是說我們在員外的時候的這些計畫廉政跟透明的基本要求非常的重要上次部長你也表示肯定嘛那上一次4月15號在外交國防委員會裡面的時候的詢答我也提到了我們台灣\n\n00:47.686 --> 01:10.308\n透過咖啡所提出的各式各樣的援助甚至對於當初我們的前邦交國洪都拉斯所提供的一些援助那我也給您時間那也才是了說您兩個禮拜之內書面包要給我們但我到目前為止沒拿到\n\n01:11.785 --> 01:38.542\n跟委員報告一下我們其實那個上次的諮詢之後我們就有很積極的去跟卡貝去跟他們討論那因為有一些涉及到很多細節的部分在跟他們做那個往返那很快很快就會上網了很快部長我知道您明天就要總辭了那您要到另外一個位置去但我覺得在國會我們建立一個基本的原則我覺得是重要的就是說到要做到\n\n01:39.873 --> 02:01.262\n如果說到沒有做到事先來解釋可能是有必要的嘛我到今天站在這個質詢台以前我痴痴的等我等不到東西外交部沒有遵守那個時候4月15號的承諾也沒有人來說明部長您覺得這樣OK嗎\n\n02:03.173 --> 02:23.315\n這樣子可能不是很好但是跟委員報告我們有在努力而且很快的就會上網了分兩個部分嘛你要做的努力你去做努力而且我老實說齁這個承諾不是在這一次國會的時候才做的喔上一屆國會的時候台灣民眾黨的邱承遠委員其實也提出了這樣的要求\n\n02:24.264 --> 02:36.917\n那只是我們那個時候開始在針對我們對於卡貝的援助跟國際的反貪腐組織OCCPR我們開始合作的時候那個時候對於我們\n\n02:40.060 --> 03:07.272\n跟國際的反貪腐組織我們一起合作的計畫release出來了以後其實部長您可以去看那個合作計畫在國際的媒體圈其實引發了相當大的迴響也促成了卡貝進一步的改革那當然啦MOSI也是因為那件事情其實大部分的國家都不支持他了但我要說的是真的只有一個非常簡單的道理就是\n\n03:08.112 --> 03:11.093\n各位演講我們同仁說已經有提供書面的資料了在哪裡?你什麼時候提供?當天結束的時候大概兩天\n\n03:33.261 --> 04:00.183\n我們當初就是那個質詢結束之後幾天之內就已經提供書面的這個資料給委員的辦公室了我必須要跟部長講我會再回去查但我今天在這邊質詢的時候我到目前為止我還沒有收到那樣的list我會後會再跟外交部的同仁check到底是哪一個環節出了問題我們本身會有本文我們這個也調出來讓委員知道好可以第二個\n\n04:01.204 --> 04:18.849\n我上次在質詢的時候也提到紅國的第一夫人遭貪腐判刑之前是判了比較久到2022年的時候14年forcorruption在上面你應該看得很清楚上次我提到說\n\n04:21.550 --> 04:41.812\n我們給宏都拉斯基本上面的員外的計畫被他們的夫人拿去貪腐你上次給我的答覆是那不是錢跟我們這邊沒有關係但我後來去調我後來去調聯合國針對在宏國他們所成立的\n\n04:42.973 --> 05:08.151\n去FightAgainstCorruption的這個委員會他們出來的調查報告寫得很清楚他出來的調查報告錢的確是我們提供給宏都拉斯的跟您上次跟我所做的回覆完全不一樣部長可不可以請您說明一下這個部分倒是我沒有注意到那個聯合國的這個報告我請我們的同仁實際上在掌握這個業務的同仁跟委員說明好\n\n05:11.885 --> 05:35.793\n當初在這個案子爆發的時候是計劃已經執行完之後那當地的新聞有揭露說可能有17萬的那一個被貪污的錢是可能來自我方那我們的同仁當時因為還有邦交立刻就去跟那個檢調單位那個關切檢調單位說因為還在清查的過程當中他們不排除由來自我方的錢\n\n05:36.533 --> 05:47.848\n但是最後的判決書上面沒有指成那個款項的來源那等一下等一下等一下先停一下喔您現在看齁我螢幕上面秀出來的\n\n05:49.059 --> 06:17.826\n那個是那個委員會他們做出來的調查報告他講的很具體喔是從2011年到2014年前總統任內的時候有高達400萬美金來自各種來源的捐款包括來自台灣那當然啦我們在外面的外交處境很艱困所以他們的委員會寫中國台灣我自己看了也不是很舒服但我們就是認識就是人家的調查說有來自台灣\n\n06:18.826 --> 06:39.722\n但部長跟我說跟台灣沒有關係所以我就覺得很困惑了我們進一步的去看說2022年就最近的一個判決柏妮娜被判處14年有期徒刑的時候在這個判決書裡面現在我放在左手邊的這個是他們的法院在判決了以後所公布的新聞稿\n\n06:40.643 --> 06:59.390\n在新聞稿裡面呢寫說2010年到2014年啟動宏都拉斯兒童鞋子與制服計劃那在這個計劃裡面他簽了假合約把錢給套出來然後我具體的問這個計劃是不是台灣支持的我請我們的市長來\n\n07:02.648 --> 07:17.382\n因為我吼我為什麼說員外的計畫要公開透明我查了預算書我到了國和會的網站所以所有國內可以找的公開資訊我負責任的講我全部都找完了我不知道但那邊的判決書外媒的報導這個計畫是台灣support的\n\n07:25.123 --> 07:33.415\n所以我要請教一下外交部這個洪都拉斯兒童鞋子與制服計畫是不是台灣support的因為判決書講得很清楚錢是從這邊汙的\n\n07:35.785 --> 07:56.694\n報告委員,我們在跟第一夫人辦公室的很多社福計畫裡面確實有類似的計畫,但是他貪污的錢是不是都是台灣的這個部分?等一下,這是兩個不同的概念,都是台灣的跟他貪污的錢有從台灣來的,這是兩個不同的概念,我從頭到尾沒有說都是台灣來的\n\n07:58.240 --> 08:20.078\n那個委員會的調查報告寫了來源很多包括了在外媒在調查委員會特別點出了是從台灣援助的這個計畫來的因為我希望把客觀的事實弄清楚今天我們援助的錢被他們前總統夫人污了不是我們的錯是他們的錯\n\n08:21.682 --> 08:41.114\n這個我不會因為說錢被他們的前總統夫人汙了責怪我們外交部的統人我上來就事論事做錯事的是他們的前總統夫人怎麼可以把台灣人要援助宏都拉斯小孩子買衣服買鞋子的錢都汙了可惡有罪的是他們的前總統夫人但問題是什麼但問題是這件事情被汙了\n\n08:52.789 --> 09:20.032\n臺灣我希望要有立場要有立場我們有立場是屋前的是他們的前總統夫人臺灣人可以停我們可以暫時腰桿跟紅國人民說我們很痛心我們要援助你們小朋友的就這樣子被屋了這個是我覺得我們應該有的立場而不是發生了這件事情了以後客觀的事實\n\n09:22.130 --> 09:48.922\n在國會裡面部長說這個錢跟台灣沒有關係但跟外媒的報導跟調查委員會的報告甚至連他們法院release的新聞稿全部都不符合啊部長您懂我的意思嗎我知道這個事情是不是可以請外交部的同仁再確定一下因為我已經從外媒調查委員會的法院的新聞稿\n\n09:50.031 --> 09:50.372\n李卓人議員\n\n10:05.411 --> 10:34.351\n兩點跟委員回應就是以前也曾經有一些媒體報導跟黃國相關的這個事情那到最後我們去查是沒有查到說有跟我們有相關那委員既然再提出來了我請我們的同仁再來查這是第一件事情第二件事情我們也非常反對挪用我們要協助其他國家的這個人民的錢作為他們的那個私人的這個資金這個我們是絕對反對的那如果有這些事情的話我們加以譴責\n\n10:36.052 --> 10:59.466\n非常好其實我要的只有這個態度因為我知道從現實上面錢都被人家汙走了要討什麼也討不回來但我們在進行外交工作的時候這一點我們的原則要挺直腰桿勇敢的講我覺得這樣子絕對會得到國際社會的尊重至於剛剛部長所講的第一點因為你要離任了吧\n\n11:00.006 --> 11:07.853\n但是你可不可以承諾說外交部的同仁把他查清楚了以後給我一個書面報告正式的回覆這個沒有問題這個沒有問題嗎需要多久兩個禮拜兩個禮拜好謝謝好謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.406,"end":24.221,"text":"現在主席 麻煩有請部長請部長法務委員好部長我上次在質詢的時候跟部長交換過意見我們台灣台灣人非常的善良世界各地需要台灣人的協助我們永遠是願意伸出我們溫暖的雙手"},{"start":25.622,"end":46.485,"text":"上次跟部長建立了一個原則是說我們在員外的時候的這些計畫廉政跟透明的基本要求非常的重要上次部長你也表示肯定嘛那上一次4月15號在外交國防委員會裡面的時候的詢答我也提到了我們台灣"},{"start":47.686,"end":70.308,"text":"透過咖啡所提出的各式各樣的援助甚至對於當初我們的前邦交國洪都拉斯所提供的一些援助那我也給您時間那也才是了說您兩個禮拜之內書面包要給我們但我到目前為止沒拿到"},{"start":71.785,"end":98.542,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們其實那個上次的諮詢之後我們就有很積極的去跟卡貝去跟他們討論那因為有一些涉及到很多細節的部分在跟他們做那個往返那很快很快就會上網了很快部長我知道您明天就要總辭了那您要到另外一個位置去但我覺得在國會我們建立一個基本的原則我覺得是重要的就是說到要做到"},{"start":99.873,"end":121.262,"text":"如果說到沒有做到事先來解釋可能是有必要的嘛我到今天站在這個質詢台以前我痴痴的等我等不到東西外交部沒有遵守那個時候4月15號的承諾也沒有人來說明部長您覺得這樣OK嗎"},{"start":123.173,"end":143.315,"text":"這樣子可能不是很好但是跟委員報告我們有在努力而且很快的就會上網了分兩個部分嘛你要做的努力你去做努力而且我老實說齁這個承諾不是在這一次國會的時候才做的喔上一屆國會的時候台灣民眾黨的邱承遠委員其實也提出了這樣的要求"},{"start":144.264,"end":156.917,"text":"那只是我們那個時候開始在針對我們對於卡貝的援助跟國際的反貪腐組織OCCPR我們開始合作的時候那個時候對於我們"},{"start":160.06,"end":187.272,"text":"跟國際的反貪腐組織我們一起合作的計畫release出來了以後其實部長您可以去看那個合作計畫在國際的媒體圈其實引發了相當大的迴響也促成了卡貝進一步的改革那當然啦MOSI也是因為那件事情其實大部分的國家都不支持他了但我要說的是真的只有一個非常簡單的道理就是"},{"start":188.112,"end":191.093,"text":"各位演講我們同仁說已經有提供書面的資料了在哪裡?你什麼時候提供?當天結束的時候大概兩天"},{"start":213.261,"end":240.183,"text":"我們當初就是那個質詢結束之後幾天之內就已經提供書面的這個資料給委員的辦公室了我必須要跟部長講我會再回去查但我今天在這邊質詢的時候我到目前為止我還沒有收到那樣的list我會後會再跟外交部的同仁check到底是哪一個環節出了問題我們本身會有本文我們這個也調出來讓委員知道好 可以第二個"},{"start":241.204,"end":258.849,"text":"我上次在質詢的時候也提到紅國的第一夫人遭貪腐判刑之前是判了比較久到2022年的時候14年for corruption在上面你應該看得很清楚上次我提到說"},{"start":261.55,"end":281.812,"text":"我們給宏都拉斯基本上面的員外的計畫被他們的夫人拿去貪腐你上次給我的答覆是那不是錢跟我們這邊沒有關係但我後來去調我後來去調聯合國針對在宏國他們所成立的"},{"start":282.973,"end":308.151,"text":"去Fight Against Corruption的這個委員會他們出來的調查報告寫得很清楚他出來的調查報告錢的確是我們提供給宏都拉斯的跟您上次跟我所做的回覆完全不一樣部長可不可以請您說明一下這個部分倒是我沒有注意到那個聯合國的這個報告我請我們的同仁實際上在掌握這個業務的同仁跟委員說明好"},{"start":311.885,"end":335.793,"text":"當初在這個案子爆發的時候是計劃已經執行完之後那當地的新聞有揭露說可能有17萬的那一個被貪污的錢是可能來自我方那我們的同仁當時因為還有邦交立刻就去跟那個檢調單位那個關切檢調單位說因為還在清查的過程當中他們不排除由來自我方的錢"},{"start":336.533,"end":347.848,"text":"但是最後的判決書上面沒有指成那個款項的來源那等一下等一下等一下先停一下喔您現在看齁我螢幕上面秀出來的"},{"start":349.059,"end":377.826,"text":"那個是那個委員會他們做出來的調查報告他講的很具體喔是從2011年到2014年前總統任內的時候有高達400萬美金來自各種來源的捐款包括來自台灣那當然啦我們在外面的外交處境很艱困所以他們的委員會寫中國台灣我自己看了也不是很舒服但我們就是認識就是人家的調查說有來自台灣"},{"start":378.826,"end":399.722,"text":"但部長跟我說跟台灣沒有關係所以我就覺得很困惑了我們進一步的去看說2022年就最近的一個判決柏妮娜被判處14年有期徒刑的時候在這個判決書裡面現在我放在左手邊的這個是他們的法院在判決了以後所公布的新聞稿"},{"start":400.643,"end":419.39,"text":"在新聞稿裡面呢 寫說2010年到2014年啟動宏都拉斯兒童鞋子與制服計劃那在這個計劃裡面他簽了假合約把錢給套出來然後我具體的問這個計劃是不是台灣支持的我請我們的市長來"},{"start":422.648,"end":437.382,"text":"因為我吼我為什麼說員外的計畫要公開透明我查了預算書我到了國和會的網站所以所有國內可以找的公開資訊我負責任的講我全部都找完了我不知道但那邊的判決書外媒的報導這個計畫是台灣support的"},{"start":445.123,"end":453.415,"text":"所以我要請教一下外交部這個洪都拉斯兒童鞋子與制服計畫是不是台灣support的因為判決書講得很清楚錢是從這邊汙的"},{"start":455.785,"end":476.694,"text":"報告委員,我們在跟第一夫人辦公室的很多社福計畫裡面確實有類似的計畫,但是他貪污的錢是不是都是台灣的這個部分?等一下,這是兩個不同的概念,都是台灣的跟他貪污的錢有從台灣來的,這是兩個不同的概念,我從頭到尾沒有說都是台灣來的"},{"start":478.24,"end":500.078,"text":"那個委員會的調查報告寫了來源很多包括了在外媒在調查委員會特別點出了是從台灣援助的這個計畫來的因為我希望把客觀的事實弄清楚今天我們援助的錢被他們前總統夫人污了不是我們的錯是他們的錯"},{"start":501.682,"end":521.114,"text":"這個我不會因為說錢被他們的前總統夫人汙了責怪我們外交部的統人我上來就事論事做錯事的是他們的前總統夫人怎麼可以把台灣人要援助宏都拉斯小孩子買衣服買鞋子的錢都汙了可惡有罪的是他們的前總統夫人但問題是什麼但問題是這件事情被汙了"},{"start":532.789,"end":560.032,"text":"臺灣我希望要有立場要有立場我們有立場是屋前的是他們的前總統夫人臺灣人可以停我們可以暫時腰桿跟紅國人民說我們很痛心我們要援助你們小朋友的就這樣子被屋了這個是我覺得我們應該有的立場而不是發生了這件事情了以後客觀的事實"},{"start":562.13,"end":588.922,"text":"在國會裡面部長說這個錢跟台灣沒有關係但跟外媒的報導跟調查委員會的報告甚至連他們法院release的新聞稿全部都不符合啊部長您懂我的意思嗎我知道這個事情是不是可以請外交部的同仁再確定一下因為我已經從外媒調查委員會的法院的新聞稿"},{"start":590.031,"end":590.372,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":605.411,"end":634.351,"text":"兩點跟委員回應就是以前也曾經有一些媒體報導跟黃國相關的這個事情那到最後我們去查是沒有查到說有跟我們有相關那委員既然再提出來了我請我們的同仁再來查這是第一件事情第二件事情我們也非常反對挪用我們要協助其他國家的這個人民的錢作為他們的那個私人的這個資金這個我們是絕對反對的那如果有這些事情的話我們加以譴責"},{"start":636.052,"end":659.466,"text":"非常好 其實我要的只有這個態度因為我知道從現實上面錢都被人家汙走了要討什麼也討不回來但我們在進行外交工作的時候這一點我們的原則要挺直腰桿勇敢的講我覺得這樣子絕對會得到國際社會的尊重至於剛剛部長所講的第一點因為你要離任了吧"},{"start":660.006,"end":667.853,"text":"但是你可不可以承諾說外交部的同仁把他查清楚了以後給我一個書面報告正式的回覆這個沒有問題這個沒有問題嗎需要多久兩個禮拜兩個禮拜好謝謝好謝謝委員"}]}}}}