{"id":152536,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152536","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c03e179fae34fbaa52ad847f93a84224faabc25b9e10ac7e456796960d55468d695ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"12:09:11 - 12:25:20","影片長度":"00:16:09","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）執行現況」，併請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-20"},"duration":969,"end_time":"2024-05-15T12:25:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T12:09:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":778,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（12時9分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長好。部長，今天登記質詢的總共有53位委員，裡面有32位民進黨的委員、19個國民黨的委員、2個民眾黨的委員，顯然民進黨委員大軍壓境的狀況比較多，所以其實沒有施壓的問題。今天國會任何委員，對於我們的行政業務質詢，其實是他們的義務跟職責……"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["馬委員文君：所以其實不需要套上任何的帽子。今天為什麼大家會重視這個？當然部長未來已經要到國安會，你未來的面向更廣，不過我們也希望大家可以用對國家利益最好的態度來面對。"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["馬委員文君：今天有幾個問題，我們還是在這裡請教，因為畢竟是在你手上，我想要請教，我們很多文件列密的目的是什麼？因為之前大家一直說我洩密嘛！可是到現在都沒有說洩什麼密耶！反而有很多在媒體直播，然後透過很多不該知道機密的人一直說出來，卻沒有人對他有任何的追究，這個現象很奇怪。所以我想要請教部長的是，我們列密的目的是什麼？是內容還是那一張紙？"],["吳部長釗燮：最主要是那個內容，以及文件本身啦！我們……"],["馬委員文君：我們很認同，對於任何的規範或者我們在法律律定的部分，大家去遵守，可是我們現在要問的是我們到底在乎的是內容，還是那一張文件？因為已經本末倒置了。從過去到現在，不管是國防的武器裝備，不管是現在外交的政策，或者對外很多的種種作為等等，我們在乎的、應該要保守秘密的是我們不要受到干擾，而不是在國內引起紛爭，這也是為什麼這一次大家會拿出來討論，而且非常重視的一個部分。我們就內容來看，因為有些在捷克方面，其實它已經有提出來了，也公開了，就這個部分，我想要請教的是在俄烏戰爭以來，我們援助烏克蘭累計已經達到1億美金，而這一次外交部委託捷克以第三方援助烏克蘭有幾個問題，我們希望在這裡可以好好地釐清，好不好？畢竟花的是國家的預算還有人民的納稅錢，首先，這個1,000萬現金，我們提供了1,000萬美元的捐助，其中匡了30%的金額要向臺灣採購，我們現在比較不能理解的是，為什麼30%的醫療用品要向臺灣採購？"],["吳部長釗燮：這個是立法院在2014年的決議……"],["馬委員文君：這個不是2014年，其實之前，我們在援助其他的……因為俄烏戰爭，這不是第一筆啊，你已經累計到1億美金了，老實說外交部會這麼認真地去追溯到2014年，我也很懷疑啦！我們現在要講的是為什麼要這麼做？既然是捐助款，對烏克蘭的難民或者需求者來說其實是非常重要的，可是我們卻列了這一點，這是第一點大家覺得不可思議的。那一天歐洲司的司長有提到，是因為現在那裡很危險，所以我們沒有辦法進去，然後也沒有辦法理解到他們缺的是什麼……"],["吳部長釗燮：只能透過第三者。"],["馬委員文君：可是部長，你記得嗎？2022年俄烏戰爭剛開始的時候，而且還不是只有在烏東喔，那時候連基輔都是被打的一個範圍，可是2022年4月份的時候，你還跟基輔市長親自視訊……"],["吳部長釗燮：那是local government如果說涉及到中央政府的話，這個很困難。"],["馬委員文君：你可以跟基輔市長對話，其實他們會掌控到很多的資訊，而且你都可以在5月31號的時候跟另外一個哈爾科夫的市長，視訊了，哈爾科夫就在烏東了，這時烏東已經是在戰爭陰影之下的一個城市，可是你也跟他做了視訊。可見如果我們願意，我們可以很清楚地聯繫到，如果不行那也沒關係，你必須清楚地瞭解到他們需要的是什麼，可是你用這樣的理由，我們不能接受。如果在當時這麼緊張的狀況之下，你都還可以跟他們視訊，為什麼到現在，甚至在烏東的一個需求，我們還要透過第三者？當然也可以，不是不行，可是為什麼要匡了30%的醫療用品？因為我記得那時候我們在援烏的時候，我們也有物資送過去，對不對？"],["吳部長釗燮：對。"],["馬委員文君：那時候物資，大家最質疑的，包括外交部都覺得很傷腦筋的，就是我們的運費，而今天歐洲很多的醫療用品會比我們臺灣差嗎？今天是他們的需求，不該是用最好、最高級的，而是要最迅速、最需要的，所以怎麼樣的方向對他們會是最好的？你錢都捐給人家了，為什麼一定要要求它30%要跟臺灣買？這是大家不能理解的目的之一。第二個，我們3月份的時候，其實臺南也有民間的企業，它也有送醫療器材到烏克蘭，民間都可以跟他們聯繫上，都知道他們可能需要什麼，我們怎麼會不知道？堂堂一個外交部！這是第二個。第三個，我們到底要不要用政府採購法，我覺得都可以討論，可是問題就是我們剛才講的，明明你已經把現金送過去，你還要叫它買我們這裡的，然後再花一筆運費運到那裡去，這不是多此一舉嗎？而且浪費掉的那些錢，這部分到底後來又會被誰多賺了一筆？所以這個是我們覺得應該要很清楚的。","另外，他們在3月份都已經調查過這樣的需求，現在可不可以告訴我們，他們現在最欠缺的是什麼？他們想要買什麼、要買多少錢或者多少數量，有沒有給我們一個清單？"],["吳部長釗燮：他們會給我們期中報告，我跟委員說明一下，就是說……"],["馬委員文君：部長，我覺得期中報告跟他們的需求要分開，因為從3月到現在已經兩個月，如果這是他們急著必須要用的醫療用品，包括藥品，這個是不能等的，照理說他們的需求……因為也不是非常多的錢，這怎麼會等到他們的期中報告？他們要跟臺灣買，我現在說的是要跟臺灣買的部分，其他我不管。"],["吳部長釗燮：他們也有對外公開一個影帶，裡面這些東西是跟……或者是說這些東西是made in Taiwan，其實我們跟他們講，這個東西是要向臺灣採購，只要是……"],["馬委員文君：所以早就送過去了，是嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：只要是made in Taiwan……"],["馬委員文君：早就送過去了？"],["吳部長釗燮：不管是什麼樣的醫材……"],["馬委員文君：在當場買是嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：不是，他們只要在市面上能夠找到什麼樣made in Taiwan的東西，而不是buy from Taiwan就符合我們的需求了。"],["馬委員文君：這樣就很奇怪囉！部長，made in Taiwan跟buy from Taiwan，你在玩文字遊戲……"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有，我沒有在玩文字遊戲。"],["馬委員文君：部長，聽我講完我的問題，今天如果你只是要人家買臺灣製造的東西，在捷克可能可以買到、在哪裡可以買到，或者只要是臺灣生產的通通可以，你的意思是這樣嗎？那怎麼會在這裡面規範？通常會是好意的，私底下口頭拜託他們儘量買我們的……"],["吳部長釗燮：這是希望他們能夠協助我們的產業發展……"],["馬委員文君：我們是在援助其他國家，在必須的人道救援時，我們還要考量到這樣的因素，這是讓人家覺得很奇怪的啦！"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有啦！因為我們的人沒有辦法實際進去，而捷克的這些人能夠進去實際的看……"],["馬委員文君：部長，你如果講這部分，那我們就要來探討了，我希望你最近能夠提供我們相關的清單，因為你說made in Taiwan跟buy from Taiwan是不一樣的，你現在是針對我們的問題在做一個解釋而已啦！跟你剛剛和他們在那邊說密件怎麼樣的……"],["吳部長釗燮：有30%從臺灣買……"],["馬委員文君：如果是人道救援、如果在捷克可以買到，你還要求一定要是臺灣的，那叫什麼人道救援？這樣子的話，我覺得你剛剛那個理由就更不可原諒了，因為好的藥品歐洲也很多啊！我們很多的學名藥，我們有很多的……"],["吳部長釗燮：最主要是器材，我們臺灣是醫療器材的大國。"],["馬委員文君：歐洲沒有嗎？什麼樣的器材？"],["吳部長釗燮：歐洲可能也有，像最近……"],["馬委員文君：所以部長你已經講到重點了，你說你不知道他們需要什麼，他們到現在還沒有提供給我們，可是你剛剛說他們需要的是器材，而且臺灣很強，那希望你把他們需要什麼樣的器材提供給我們委員會，好不好？"],["吳部長釗燮：好，我們書面提供給委員。"],["馬委員文君：第二個，針對外交部報告裡面提到的，我們今天討論的重點──能不能加入WHA，其實國外的政府、民意機關還有團體，他們有很多透過媒體也好、短片也好、投書也好，或很多有效的行動也好，都在支持我們，希望我們可以進入WHA。可是我想請教一個問題，臺灣在2009年到2016年都有收到WHO幹事長邀請臺灣以觀察員的身分參加WHA的原因，跟現在沒有辦法參加的原因，你可不可以用比較簡單的方式讓我們知道，為什麼我們過去在2009年到2016年可以以觀察員的身分參加，2007年以後到目前為止，今年顯然我們也接不到邀請函，到底是為什麼？最主要的原因是什麼？"],["吳部長釗燮：2009年眾所周知，是因為我們接受了中國的政治條件……"],["馬委員文君：什麼樣的條件？"],["吳部長釗燮：就是跟中國之間有一些妥協。"],["馬委員文君：什麼樣的妥協？"],["吳部長釗燮：就我們所知……"],["馬委員文君：我們失去什麼？"],["吳部長釗燮：就我們所知，我們接受了中國的一些條件……"],["馬委員文君：比如什麼條件？"],["吳部長釗燮：在那個之前，我們看到了世界衛生組織跟中國的一個機密的MOU，我們發現如果要照這種模式參與是要透過中國，也就是世界衛生組織要提供任何協助是需要透過中國，如果我們臺灣要向世界衛生組織……"],["馬委員文君：2016年也是嘛！"],["吳部長釗燮：我們臺灣……"],["馬委員文君：2016年也是嘛！2016年你們接受了嗎？2016年我們也以……"],["吳部長釗燮：2016年的時候，那時我擔任國安會秘書長的第一天就在處理這件事情。"],["馬委員文君：結果呢？"],["吳部長釗燮：我們那時候……"],["馬委員文君：如果是這樣，你們已經是執政了……"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["馬委員文君：如果是因為這樣，照理說那時候要拒絕參加的，可是我們還是參加了，從2009年到2016年，我現在要知道的是我們到底失去什麼？我們跟人家妥協什麼？我們才可以參加。我們現在沒有辦法參加，包括你說美國都非常力挺，布林肯都大聲疾呼，可見美國使了非常大的力氣，可是我們還是沒有辦法參加，到底最重要的原因是什麼，只是因為我們不願意？可是2016年民進黨已經執政了，我們還是參加了啊！所以就這個部分，我覺得這樣子的說詞可能也沒辦法讓大家可以很信服，我們還是希望以整體的國家利益來考量，因為衛生、健康這些主要的訴求，我們臺灣有這麼優秀、這麼好的量能，我們要參加，我們在可以接受的範圍就應該參加，可是我們顯然沒有。就這個部分，我最後一個問題請教好不好？"],["吳部長釗燮：我很簡單的回應委員，2016年的時候我們有去參加，但是我們也對外非常清楚的發言，我們沒有接受中國的這些政治條件，也沒有接受中國對2758號決議案以及WHO第25.1案的說法。至於在2009年到2016年之間的參與，是接受了九二條件之後的參與，關於這件事情，因為每一個政府在針對臺灣主權的立場上有不同的看法……"],["馬委員文君：部長，時間的關係，你這樣的說明當然是可以……"],["吳部長釗燮：2016年那時候的政府沒有接受九二共識……"],["馬委員文君：你從剛剛到現在大概都有提到這些，可是第2758號決議案早就有了，我現在要說的是2009年到2016年這中間當民進黨執政以後，裡面有不可接受的條件，可是我們還是參加了，你還是接受了，這中間最大的差異，從2017年到2024年，到目前我們都沒有辦法參加，我們會損失什麼？這個部分必須要把它拿捏清楚。未來部長您會到國安會，我們還是希望大家對於整體國家的實質利益，或者務實的態度……"],["吳部長釗燮：我們會非常重視。"],["馬委員文君：我們來面對，好不好？"],["吳部長釗燮：對，會非常的重視。"],["馬委員文君：我最後一個問題請教，這一次幫我們在WHO提案的邦交國有幾個？"],["吳部長釗燮：目前正在增加當中，因為還有好幾天的時間，我們預期所有的邦交國應該都……"],["馬委員文君：還在增加嘛！還沒有增加之前，到目前有幾個？"],["吳部長釗燮：這部分容許我先不對外說明。"],["馬委員文君：有困難嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：有好幾個，沒有困難，已經有好幾個了。"],["馬委員文君：那什麼時候可以告訴我們？"],["吳部長釗燮：可能……"],["馬委員文君：520之後？還是等一下可以來報告？因為有和沒有是很清楚的啊！"],["吳部長釗燮：下禮拜五我們就可以公開了。"],["馬委員文君：520之後喔，是擔心什麼？"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有，就是我們要……"],["馬委員文君：因為我現在問的不是在你正式開會的當下，而是現在到目前為止，有多少邦交國或非邦交國幫我們提案？"],["吳部長釗燮：剛剛同仁跟我講，報名的時間是5月21號截止，所以在截止的時候我們才知道……"],["馬委員文君：對，我是說現在啦！因為我們至少還有12個邦交國，這12個邦交國有誰為我們提案，邀請我們參加？"],["吳部長釗燮：已經有好多個了。"],["馬委員文君：好多個，有幾個？不然說幾個就好，我不要問你哪幾個啦，有幾個？"],["吳部長釗燮：有6個。"],["馬委員文君：6個，好，謝謝。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員。"],["主席：請陳菁徽委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-20","speakers":["馬文君","邱志偉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","羅智強","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","林憶君","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","黃國昌","陳菁徽","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","李坤城","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","楊瓊瓔","范雲","陳培瑜","王正旭","林月琴","牛煦庭","翁曉玲","葉元之","張雅琳","林思銘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（ 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00:01:10,087\n所以我想其實不需要套上任何的帽子今天為什麼大家會重視這個當然部長未來你已經邀到國安會你未來的面向更廣不過我們也希望大家可以用對國家利益最好的態度來面對那今天有幾個問題我們還是在這裡請教因為畢竟是在您手上我想要請教我們很多的文件列密的目的是什麼\n\n4\n00:01:10,848 --> 00:01:17,410\n因為我自己在之前也大家一直說我洩密可是到現在都沒有說我洩什麼密反而有很多在媒體直播然後透過很多的不該知道機密的人一直說出來沒有人對他有任何的追究這個現象很奇怪所以我想要請教部長的是我們列密的目的是什麼是內容還是那一張紙\n\n5\n00:01:39,791 --> 00:02:03,492\n最主要是那個內容以及文件本身我們很認同我們在對於任何的規範或者我們在法律律定的大家去遵守可是我們現在要說的是我們到底在乎的是內容還是那張文件因為已經本末倒置了\n\n6\n00:02:04,173 --> 00:02:22,680\n我們從過去到現在不管是國防的武器裝備不管是現在的外交的政策或者對外的很多的種種作為等等我們在乎的我們應該要保守秘密的是我們不要受到干擾而不是在國內引起紛爭這也是這一次為什麼大家會拿出來討論而且\n\n7\n00:02:24,141 --> 00:02:24,682\n在俄烏戰爭以來,我們援助烏克蘭累計已經達到1億美金\n\n8\n00:02:42,782 --> 00:03:08,623\n那這一次外交部委託捷克以第三方援助烏克蘭有幾個問題希望在這裡可以好好的釐清好不好因為他畢竟花的是國家的預算還有人民的納稅錢首先這個一千萬現金我們提供了一千萬美元的一個捐助那其中匡了百分之三十的金額要向台灣採購我們現在比較\n\n9\n00:03:13,131 --> 00:03:14,073\n為什麼這30%的醫療用品要向台灣採購?\n\n10\n00:03:19,527 --> 00:03:23,892\n這個是那個立法院在2014年的這個不是2014年因為其實之前我們在援助其他的因為俄武戰爭這個不是第一筆啊你已經累積到1億美金了我們老實說外交部會這麼認真的去追溯到2014年我也很懷疑啊我們現在要講的是為什麼要這麼做因為我們既然是這個是捐助款\n\n11\n00:03:43,911 --> 00:03:44,591\n什麼透過第三者?\n\n12\n00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:24,673\n可是部長你記得嗎2011年那時候二五戰爭剛開始的時候而且那時候還不是只有在在烏東喔那時候連基輔都是被打的一個範圍可是2011年4月份的時候你還跟基輔市長親自視訊第二次如果說要涉及到中央政府的話這個很困難\n\n13\n00:04:34,824 --> 00:04:34,864\n馬文君\n\n14\n00:04:52,766 --> 00:04:57,892\n這個已經是烏東在戰爭陰影之下的一個城市可是你也跟他做了視訊所以可見如果我們願意我們可以很清楚的聯繫到或者如果不行那也沒關係可是你必須清楚的了解到他們需要的是什麼可是你用這樣的理由我們不能接受\n\n15\n00:05:10,948 --> 00:05:32,315\n如果在當時這麼緊張的狀況之下你都還可以跟他們視訊為什麼到現在甚至你在烏東的一個需求我們還要透過第三者當然也可以不是不行可是為什麼要匡了百分之三十的醫療用品因為我記得那時候我們在圓屋的時候我們也有物資送過去對不對\n\n16\n00:05:33,835 --> 00:05:40,963\n那時候物資大家最質疑的或者包括外交部都覺得很傷腦筋的就是我們的運費那你今天歐洲的很多的醫療用品會比我們台灣差嗎你今天是他們的需求\n\n17\n00:05:48,752 --> 00:06:15,987\n你今天不是用最好最高級的而是要最迅速最需要的所以怎麼樣的方向會是對他們最好你錢都捐給人家了你為什麼一定要要求他一定30%要跟台灣買這是大家不能理解的目的之一第二個我們3月份的時候其實台南也有民間的企業其實他有送醫療器材到烏克蘭\n\n18\n00:06:17,611 --> 00:06:25,977\n那民間都可以跟他們聯繫上都知道他們可能需求什麼那我們怎麼會不知道堂堂一個外交部這是第二個第三個\n\n19\n00:06:28,516 --> 00:06:30,977\n我們到底要不要用政府採購法我覺得那個都可以討論可是問題就是我們剛才講的你明明最近的而且你已經把現金送過去你還要在他買買我們這裡的然後再花一筆運費再運到那裡去這不是多此一舉嗎而且你浪費掉那些錢\n\n20\n00:06:51,460 --> 00:06:57,405\n這個部分到底後來會被誰又多賺了一筆所以這個是我們覺得應該要很清楚的另外他在3月份他都已經調查這樣的需求現在可不可以告訴我們他們決定現在他們最欠缺的是什麼他們想要買什麼要買多少錢或者多少數量有沒有給我們一個清單\n\n21\n00:07:13,372 --> 00:07:20,374\n他們會給我們期中報告這邊我跟委員說明一下部長我覺得期中報告跟他的需求要把它分開因為他從3月到現在已經兩個月如果這是他們急著必須的醫療用品包括藥品這個是不能等的照理說他們的需求因為也不是非常多的錢這怎麼會等到他的期中報告他要跟台灣買我現在說的是要跟台灣買的部分\n\n22\n00:07:41,978 --> 00:08:00,487\n他們也有對外來公開一個影帶說裡面這些東西是跟或者是說這些東西是madeinTaiwan那其實我們跟他們講說這個東西是要向台灣採購那這只要是只要是madeinTaiwan不管是什麼樣的這個藝材\n\n23\n00:08:02,188 --> 00:08:13,335\n是嗎?不是,就是說他們只要在那個市面上能夠找到什麼樣MadeinTaiwan的這些東西而不是BuyfromTaiwan那這個就符合我們的需求部長,MadeinTaiwan跟BuyfromTaiwan你這個在玩文字遊戲的部長,聽我講完我的問題\n\n24\n00:08:21,460 --> 00:08:34,467\n因為今天如果你只是要人家買說是台灣製造的東西在捷克可能可以買到在哪裡可以買到或者只要有台灣的生產的通通可以你的意思是這樣嗎那怎麼會在這裡面規範那通常會是好意的私底下口頭拜託他們說那盡量買我們的我們是在援助其他國家\n\n25\n00:08:44,972 --> 00:08:45,192\n馬文君\n\n26\n00:09:06,738 --> 00:09:18,387\nMadeinTaiwan跟ByFrontTaiwan這是不一樣的那你現在是針對我們的問題在做這樣的一個解釋而已啦如果是這樣如果是人道救援如果在捷克可以買到你還要求說一定是台灣的那叫什麼人道救援\n\n27\n00:09:28,618 --> 00:09:39,638\n如果是這樣的話你剛剛那個理由我覺得就更不可原諒了因為你好的藥品歐洲也很多啊我們很多的那個學名藥我們有很多的\n\n28\n00:09:40,666 --> 00:09:46,868\n主要是器材我們台灣是醫療器材的大國歐洲沒有嗎?什麼樣的器材?所以部長你已經講到重點了麻煩你把他們的需求因為你說你不知道他們需要什麼到現在還沒有提供給我們可是你剛剛說他們需要的是器材而且台灣很強那希望你把這個器材他需要的什麼樣的器材提供給我們委員會好不好第二個\n\n29\n00:10:05,094 --> 00:10:18,899\n就是說我們現在今天也討論到針對外交部去報告裡面提到的就是我們今天的重點我們對能不能加入WHA\n\n30\n00:10:20,319 --> 00:10:34,529\n其實這個部分外交部在報告裡面有提到我們對國外的政府對民意機關還有團體其實他們有很多很多透過媒體也好短片也好投書也好或很多有效的行動也好\n\n31\n00:10:35,578 --> 00:11:01,169\n都在支持希望我們可以進入WHA可是我想請教一下臺灣在2009年到2016年都有收到WHO幹事長邀請臺灣以觀察員身份參加WHA的原因跟現在沒有辦法參加的原因你可不可以用比較簡單的方式讓我們知道為什麼在過去可以\n\n32\n00:11:01,989 --> 00:11:22,809\n在2009年到2006年我們是以觀察員身份參加的那就2007年以後一直到目前為止今年顯然可能我們也接不到邀請函了那到底是為什麼最主要的原因是什麼2009年那個眾所周知是因為我們接受了中國的這個政治的條件什麼樣的條件\n\n33\n00:11:25,974 --> 00:11:49,057\n就是跟中國之間有一些妥協什麼樣的妥協?我們失去什麼?我們所知就是說接受了中國的一些條件比如什麼條件?在那個之前我們看到了世界衛生組織跟中國的一個機密的MOU發現說我們如果說要照這種模式去參與的話是要透過中國\n\n34\n00:11:49,878 --> 00:11:50,179\n2016年也是嗎2016年你們接受了嗎\n\n35\n00:12:02,543 --> 00:12:06,584\n2016年的時候我那時候在擔任國安會的秘書長的第一天我們就在處理這件事情結果呢如果是這樣你們已經是掌控已經是執政了如果是因為這樣照理說那時候要拒絕參加的可是\n\n36\n00:12:22,170 --> 00:12:26,994\n我們還是參加了從2009年到2014年我們2016年我現在要知道的是我們到底失去什麼我們在人家妥協什麼我們才可以參加那我們現在沒有辦法參加然後說包括美國美國你說非常力挺包括布林肯都大聲的疾呼這可見是美國使了非常大的力氣可是我們還是沒有辦法參加那他到底最重要的原因是什麼只是因為我們不願意可是2016年\n\n37\n00:12:50,492 --> 00:12:55,473\n民進黨已經執政了我們還是參加啦所以就這個部分我覺得這樣子的說辭可能也沒辦法讓大家可以很信服我們還是希望以整體的國家利益如果因為衛生健康這些主要的一個訴求我們台灣有這麼優秀的正好的一個能量量能我們要參加我們應該在可以接受的範圍我們就應該參加可是我們顯然沒有\n\n38\n00:13:18,900 --> 00:13:37,708\n就這個部分我只最後一個問題請教好不好很簡單的回應委員就是2016年的時候我們去參加但是我們也對外發言非常的清楚就是沒有接受中國的這些政治條件也沒有接受中國對2758號決議案以及WHO第二五點議案的這種說法\n\n39\n00:13:43,290 --> 00:14:03,818\n至於說在2009到2016年之間的這個參與接受了九二條件之後的這個參與至於有關於這件事情是因為每一個政府在針對台灣主權的這個部長上面有不同的這個看法2016年那時候的政府是沒有接受九二共識你這樣的說明當然是可以你從剛剛到現在大概都有提到這些可是2758早就有了\n\n40\n00:14:12,682 --> 00:14:17,847\n我現在要說的是2009到2016年這中間如果當民進黨執政以後那裡面有不可接受的條件那可是我們還是參加的你還是接受的那這中間最大的差異到後面2017年到2024年目前我們都沒有辦法參加我們會損失什麼這個部分這個部分必須要把它拿捏清楚未來部長臨會到國安會我們還是希望\n\n41\n00:14:38,346 --> 00:14:39,628\n這次幫我們在WHO提案的邦交國有幾個?\n\n42\n00:14:55,423 --> 00:15:18,012\n目前正在增加當中因為我們還有好幾天的時間我們預期是所有的邦交國應該都沒有還在增加嗎還沒有增加之前到目前有幾個這個部分容許我就先不對外說明這樣子有困難嗎有好幾個沒有困難是已經有好幾個那什麼時候可以告訴我們可能520之後還是等一下可以先來報告因為有沒有很清楚\n\n43\n00:15:25,376 --> 00:15:28,100\n下禮拜五我們就可以公開了五二零之後啊擔心什麼沒有就是我們要沒有因為我現在問的不是說在你開會正式開會當下而是現在到目前為止有多少邦交國或非邦交國幫我們提案\n\n44\n00:15:43,586 --> 00:15:43,747\n多謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n955\t2336\t謝謝主席 麻煩請部長報言好部長好 今天登記質詢的總共有53位委員來賓有32位民進黨的委員 19個國民黨的委員 2個民眾黨的委員\n25049\t40682\t民進黨的委員顯然大軍壓境的狀況比較多所以其實沒有施壓的問題今天在國會任何委員只要對於我們的行政業務或者我們在質詢的這個其實是他們的義務跟職責\n43104\t70087\t所以我想其實不需要套上任何的帽子今天為什麼大家會重視這個當然部長未來你已經邀到國安會你未來的面向更廣不過我們也希望大家可以用對國家利益最好的態度來面對那今天有幾個問題我們還是在這裡請教因為畢竟是在您手上我想要請教我們很多的文件列密的目的是什麼\n70848\t77410\t因為我自己在之前也大家一直說我洩密可是到現在都沒有說我洩什麼密反而有很多在媒體直播然後透過很多的不該知道機密的人一直說出來沒有人對他有任何的追究這個現象很奇怪所以我想要請教部長的是我們列密的目的是什麼是內容還是那一張紙\n99791\t123492\t最主要是那個內容以及文件本身我們很認同我們在對於任何的規範或者我們在法律律定的大家去遵守可是我們現在要說的是我們到底在乎的是內容還是那張文件因為已經本末倒置了\n124173\t142680\t我們從過去到現在不管是國防的武器裝備不管是現在的外交的政策或者對外的很多的種種作為等等我們在乎的我們應該要保守秘密的是我們不要受到干擾而不是在國內引起紛爭這也是這一次為什麼大家會拿出來討論而且\n144141\t144682\t在俄烏戰爭以來,我們援助烏克蘭累計已經達到1億美金\n162782\t188623\t那這一次外交部委託捷克以第三方援助烏克蘭有幾個問題希望在這裡可以好好的釐清好不好因為他畢竟花的是國家的預算還有人民的納稅錢首先這個一千萬現金我們提供了一千萬美元的一個捐助那其中匡了百分之三十的金額要向台灣採購我們現在比較\n193131\t194073\t為什麼這30%的醫療用品要向台灣採購?\n199527\t203892\t這個是那個立法院在2014年的這個不是2014年因為其實之前我們在援助其他的因為俄武戰爭這個不是第一筆啊你已經累積到1億美金了我們老實說外交部會這麼認真的去追溯到2014年我也很懷疑啊我們現在要講的是為什麼要這麼做因為我們既然是這個是捐助款\n223911\t224591\t什麼透過第三者?\n249560\t264673\t可是部長你記得嗎2011年那時候二五戰爭剛開始的時候而且那時候還不是只有在在烏東喔那時候連基輔都是被打的一個範圍可是2011年4月份的時候你還跟基輔市長親自視訊第二次如果說要涉及到中央政府的話這個很困難\n274824\t274864\t馬文君\n292766\t297892\t這個已經是烏東在戰爭陰影之下的一個城市可是你也跟他做了視訊所以可見如果我們願意我們可以很清楚的聯繫到或者如果不行那也沒關係可是你必須清楚的了解到他們需要的是什麼可是你用這樣的理由我們不能接受\n310948\t332315\t如果在當時這麼緊張的狀況之下你都還可以跟他們視訊為什麼到現在甚至你在烏東的一個需求我們還要透過第三者當然也可以不是不行可是為什麼要匡了百分之三十的醫療用品因為我記得那時候我們在圓屋的時候我們也有物資送過去對不對\n333835\t340963\t那時候物資大家最質疑的或者包括外交部都覺得很傷腦筋的就是我們的運費那你今天歐洲的很多的醫療用品會比我們台灣差嗎你今天是他們的需求\n348752\t375987\t你今天不是用最好最高級的而是要最迅速最需要的所以怎麼樣的方向會是對他們最好你錢都捐給人家了你為什麼一定要要求他一定30%要跟台灣買這是大家不能理解的目的之一第二個我們3月份的時候其實台南也有民間的企業其實他有送醫療器材到烏克蘭\n377611\t385977\t那民間都可以跟他們聯繫上都知道他們可能需求什麼那我們怎麼會不知道堂堂一個外交部這是第二個第三個\n388516\t390977\t我們到底要不要用政府採購法我覺得那個都可以討論可是問題就是我們剛才講的你明明最近的而且你已經把現金送過去你還要在他買買我們這裡的然後再花一筆運費再運到那裡去這不是多此一舉嗎而且你浪費掉那些錢\n411460\t417405\t這個部分到底後來會被誰又多賺了一筆所以這個是我們覺得應該要很清楚的另外他在3月份他都已經調查這樣的需求現在可不可以告訴我們他們決定現在他們最欠缺的是什麼他們想要買什麼要買多少錢或者多少數量有沒有給我們一個清單\n433372\t440374\t他們會給我們期中報告這邊我跟委員說明一下部長我覺得期中報告跟他的需求要把它分開因為他從3月到現在已經兩個月如果這是他們急著必須的醫療用品包括藥品這個是不能等的照理說他們的需求因為也不是非常多的錢這怎麼會等到他的期中報告他要跟台灣買我現在說的是要跟台灣買的部分\n461978\t480487\t他們也有對外來公開一個影帶說裡面這些東西是跟或者是說這些東西是made in Taiwan那其實我們跟他們講說這個東西是要向台灣採購那這只要是只要是made in Taiwan不管是什麼樣的這個藝材\n482188\t493335\t是嗎?不是,就是說他們只要在那個市面上能夠找到什麼樣Made in Taiwan的這些東西而不是Buy from Taiwan那這個就符合我們的需求部長,Made in Taiwan跟Buy from Taiwan你這個在玩文字遊戲的部長,聽我講完我的問題\n501460\t514467\t因為今天如果你只是要人家買說是台灣製造的東西在捷克可能可以買到在哪裡可以買到或者只要有台灣的生產的通通可以你的意思是這樣嗎那怎麼會在這裡面規範那通常會是好意的私底下口頭拜託他們說那盡量買我們的我們是在援助其他國家\n524972\t525192\t馬文君\n546738\t558387\tMade in Taiwan 跟 By Front Taiwan 這是不一樣的那你現在是針對我們的問題在做這樣的一個解釋而已啦如果是這樣 如果是人道救援 如果在捷克可以買到你還要求說一定是台灣的 那叫什麼人道救援\n568618\t579638\t如果是這樣的話你剛剛那個理由我覺得就更不可原諒了因為你好的藥品歐洲也很多啊我們很多的那個學名藥我們有很多的\n580666\t586868\t主要是器材我們台灣是醫療器材的大國歐洲沒有嗎?什麼樣的器材?所以部長你已經講到重點了麻煩你把他們的需求因為你說你不知道他們需要什麼到現在還沒有提供給我們可是你剛剛說他們需要的是器材而且台灣很強那希望你把這個器材他需要的什麼樣的器材提供給我們委員會好不好第二個\n605094\t618899\t就是說我們現在今天也討論到針對外交部去報告裡面提到的就是我們今天的重點我們對能不能加入WHA\n620319\t634529\t其實這個部分外交部在報告裡面有提到我們對國外的政府對民意機關還有團體其實他們有很多很多透過媒體也好短片也好投書也好或很多有效的行動也好\n635578\t661169\t都在支持希望我們可以進入WHA可是我想請教一下臺灣在2009年到2016年都有收到WHO幹事長邀請臺灣以觀察員身份參加WHA的原因跟現在沒有辦法參加的原因你可不可以用比較簡單的方式讓我們知道為什麼在過去可以\n661989\t682809\t在2009年到2006年我們是以觀察員身份參加的那就2007年以後一直到目前為止今年顯然可能我們也接不到邀請函了那到底是為什麼最主要的原因是什麼2009年那個眾所周知是因為我們接受了中國的這個政治的條件什麼樣的條件\n685974\t709057\t就是跟中國之間有一些妥協什麼樣的妥協?我們失去什麼?我們所知就是說接受了中國的一些條件比如什麼條件?在那個之前我們看到了世界衛生組織跟中國的一個機密的MOU發現說我們如果說要照這種模式去參與的話是要透過中國\n709878\t710179\t2016年也是嗎2016年你們接受了嗎\n722543\t726584\t2016年的時候我那時候在擔任國安會的秘書長的第一天我們就在處理這件事情結果呢如果是這樣你們已經是掌控已經是執政了如果是因為這樣照理說那時候要拒絕參加的可是\n742170\t746994\t我們還是參加了從2009年到2014年我們2016年我現在要知道的是我們到底失去什麼我們在人家妥協什麼我們才可以參加那我們現在沒有辦法參加然後說包括美國美國你說非常力挺包括布林肯都大聲的疾呼這可見是美國使了非常大的力氣可是我們還是沒有辦法參加那他到底最重要的原因是什麼只是因為我們不願意可是2016年\n770492\t775473\t民進黨已經執政了我們還是參加啦所以就這個部分我覺得這樣子的說辭可能也沒辦法讓大家可以很信服我們還是希望以整體的國家利益如果因為衛生健康這些主要的一個訴求我們台灣有這麼優秀的正好的一個能量量能我們要參加我們應該在可以接受的範圍我們就應該參加可是我們顯然沒有\n798900\t817708\t就這個部分我只最後一個問題請教好不好很簡單的回應委員就是2016年的時候我們去參加但是我們也對外發言非常的清楚就是沒有接受中國的這些政治條件也沒有接受中國對2758號決議案以及WHO第二五點議案的這種說法\n823290\t843818\t至於說在2009到2016年之間的這個參與接受了九二條件之後的這個參與至於有關於這件事情是因為每一個政府在針對台灣主權的這個部長上面有不同的這個看法2016年那時候的政府是沒有接受九二共識你這樣的說明當然是可以你從剛剛到現在大概都有提到這些可是2758早就有了\n852682\t857847\t我現在要說的是2009到2016年這中間如果當民進黨執政以後那裡面有不可接受的條件那可是我們還是參加的你還是接受的那這中間最大的差異到後面2017年到2024年目前我們都沒有辦法參加我們會損失什麼這個部分這個部分必須要把它拿捏清楚未來部長臨會到國安會我們還是希望\n878346\t879628\t這次幫我們在WHO提案的邦交國有幾個?\n895423\t918012\t目前正在增加當中因為我們還有好幾天的時間我們預期是所有的邦交國應該都沒有還在增加嗎還沒有增加之前到目前有幾個這個部分容許我就先不對外說明這樣子有困難嗎有好幾個沒有困難是已經有好幾個那什麼時候可以告訴我們可能520之後還是等一下可以先來報告因為有沒有很清楚\n925376\t928100\t下禮拜五我們就可以公開了五二零之後啊 擔心什麼沒有就是我們要沒有因為我現在問的不是說在你開會正式開會當下而是現在到目前為止有多少邦交國或非邦交國幫我們提案\n943586\t943747\t多謝委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席 麻煩請部長報言好部長好 今天登記質詢的總共有53位委員來賓有32位民進黨的委員 19個國民黨的委員 2個民眾黨的委員\n民進黨的委員顯然大軍壓境的狀況比較多所以其實沒有施壓的問題今天在國會任何委員只要對於我們的行政業務或者我們在質詢的這個其實是他們的義務跟職責\n所以我想其實不需要套上任何的帽子今天為什麼大家會重視這個當然部長未來你已經邀到國安會你未來的面向更廣不過我們也希望大家可以用對國家利益最好的態度來面對那今天有幾個問題我們還是在這裡請教因為畢竟是在您手上我想要請教我們很多的文件列密的目的是什麼\n因為我自己在之前也大家一直說我洩密可是到現在都沒有說我洩什麼密反而有很多在媒體直播然後透過很多的不該知道機密的人一直說出來沒有人對他有任何的追究這個現象很奇怪所以我想要請教部長的是我們列密的目的是什麼是內容還是那一張紙\n最主要是那個內容以及文件本身我們很認同我們在對於任何的規範或者我們在法律律定的大家去遵守可是我們現在要說的是我們到底在乎的是內容還是那張文件因為已經本末倒置了\n我們從過去到現在不管是國防的武器裝備不管是現在的外交的政策或者對外的很多的種種作為等等我們在乎的我們應該要保守秘密的是我們不要受到干擾而不是在國內引起紛爭這也是這一次為什麼大家會拿出來討論而且\n在俄烏戰爭以來,我們援助烏克蘭累計已經達到1億美金\n那這一次外交部委託捷克以第三方援助烏克蘭有幾個問題希望在這裡可以好好的釐清好不好因為他畢竟花的是國家的預算還有人民的納稅錢首先這個一千萬現金我們提供了一千萬美元的一個捐助那其中匡了百分之三十的金額要向台灣採購我們現在比較\n為什麼這30%的醫療用品要向台灣採購?\n這個是那個立法院在2014年的這個不是2014年因為其實之前我們在援助其他的因為俄武戰爭這個不是第一筆啊你已經累積到1億美金了我們老實說外交部會這麼認真的去追溯到2014年我也很懷疑啊我們現在要講的是為什麼要這麼做因為我們既然是這個是捐助款\n什麼透過第三者?\n可是部長你記得嗎2011年那時候二五戰爭剛開始的時候而且那時候還不是只有在在烏東喔那時候連基輔都是被打的一個範圍可是2011年4月份的時候你還跟基輔市長親自視訊第二次如果說要涉及到中央政府的話這個很困難\n馬文君\n這個已經是烏東在戰爭陰影之下的一個城市可是你也跟他做了視訊所以可見如果我們願意我們可以很清楚的聯繫到或者如果不行那也沒關係可是你必須清楚的了解到他們需要的是什麼可是你用這樣的理由我們不能接受\n如果在當時這麼緊張的狀況之下你都還可以跟他們視訊為什麼到現在甚至你在烏東的一個需求我們還要透過第三者當然也可以不是不行可是為什麼要匡了百分之三十的醫療用品因為我記得那時候我們在圓屋的時候我們也有物資送過去對不對\n那時候物資大家最質疑的或者包括外交部都覺得很傷腦筋的就是我們的運費那你今天歐洲的很多的醫療用品會比我們台灣差嗎你今天是他們的需求\n你今天不是用最好最高級的而是要最迅速最需要的所以怎麼樣的方向會是對他們最好你錢都捐給人家了你為什麼一定要要求他一定30%要跟台灣買這是大家不能理解的目的之一第二個我們3月份的時候其實台南也有民間的企業其實他有送醫療器材到烏克蘭\n那民間都可以跟他們聯繫上都知道他們可能需求什麼那我們怎麼會不知道堂堂一個外交部這是第二個第三個\n我們到底要不要用政府採購法我覺得那個都可以討論可是問題就是我們剛才講的你明明最近的而且你已經把現金送過去你還要在他買買我們這裡的然後再花一筆運費再運到那裡去這不是多此一舉嗎而且你浪費掉那些錢\n這個部分到底後來會被誰又多賺了一筆所以這個是我們覺得應該要很清楚的另外他在3月份他都已經調查這樣的需求現在可不可以告訴我們他們決定現在他們最欠缺的是什麼他們想要買什麼要買多少錢或者多少數量有沒有給我們一個清單\n他們會給我們期中報告這邊我跟委員說明一下部長我覺得期中報告跟他的需求要把它分開因為他從3月到現在已經兩個月如果這是他們急著必須的醫療用品包括藥品這個是不能等的照理說他們的需求因為也不是非常多的錢這怎麼會等到他的期中報告他要跟台灣買我現在說的是要跟台灣買的部分\n他們也有對外來公開一個影帶說裡面這些東西是跟或者是說這些東西是made in Taiwan那其實我們跟他們講說這個東西是要向台灣採購那這只要是只要是made in Taiwan不管是什麼樣的這個藝材\n是嗎?不是,就是說他們只要在那個市面上能夠找到什麼樣Made in Taiwan的這些東西而不是Buy from Taiwan那這個就符合我們的需求部長,Made in Taiwan跟Buy from Taiwan你這個在玩文字遊戲的部長,聽我講完我的問題\n因為今天如果你只是要人家買說是台灣製造的東西在捷克可能可以買到在哪裡可以買到或者只要有台灣的生產的通通可以你的意思是這樣嗎那怎麼會在這裡面規範那通常會是好意的私底下口頭拜託他們說那盡量買我們的我們是在援助其他國家\n馬文君\nMade in Taiwan 跟 By Front Taiwan 這是不一樣的那你現在是針對我們的問題在做這樣的一個解釋而已啦如果是這樣 如果是人道救援 如果在捷克可以買到你還要求說一定是台灣的 那叫什麼人道救援\n如果是這樣的話你剛剛那個理由我覺得就更不可原諒了因為你好的藥品歐洲也很多啊我們很多的那個學名藥我們有很多的\n主要是器材我們台灣是醫療器材的大國歐洲沒有嗎?什麼樣的器材?所以部長你已經講到重點了麻煩你把他們的需求因為你說你不知道他們需要什麼到現在還沒有提供給我們可是你剛剛說他們需要的是器材而且台灣很強那希望你把這個器材他需要的什麼樣的器材提供給我們委員會好不好第二個\n就是說我們現在今天也討論到針對外交部去報告裡面提到的就是我們今天的重點我們對能不能加入WHA\n其實這個部分外交部在報告裡面有提到我們對國外的政府對民意機關還有團體其實他們有很多很多透過媒體也好短片也好投書也好或很多有效的行動也好\n都在支持希望我們可以進入WHA可是我想請教一下臺灣在2009年到2016年都有收到WHO幹事長邀請臺灣以觀察員身份參加WHA的原因跟現在沒有辦法參加的原因你可不可以用比較簡單的方式讓我們知道為什麼在過去可以\n在2009年到2006年我們是以觀察員身份參加的那就2007年以後一直到目前為止今年顯然可能我們也接不到邀請函了那到底是為什麼最主要的原因是什麼2009年那個眾所周知是因為我們接受了中國的這個政治的條件什麼樣的條件\n就是跟中國之間有一些妥協什麼樣的妥協?我們失去什麼?我們所知就是說接受了中國的一些條件比如什麼條件?在那個之前我們看到了世界衛生組織跟中國的一個機密的MOU發現說我們如果說要照這種模式去參與的話是要透過中國\n2016年也是嗎2016年你們接受了嗎\n2016年的時候我那時候在擔任國安會的秘書長的第一天我們就在處理這件事情結果呢如果是這樣你們已經是掌控已經是執政了如果是因為這樣照理說那時候要拒絕參加的可是\n我們還是參加了從2009年到2014年我們2016年我現在要知道的是我們到底失去什麼我們在人家妥協什麼我們才可以參加那我們現在沒有辦法參加然後說包括美國美國你說非常力挺包括布林肯都大聲的疾呼這可見是美國使了非常大的力氣可是我們還是沒有辦法參加那他到底最重要的原因是什麼只是因為我們不願意可是2016年\n民進黨已經執政了我們還是參加啦所以就這個部分我覺得這樣子的說辭可能也沒辦法讓大家可以很信服我們還是希望以整體的國家利益如果因為衛生健康這些主要的一個訴求我們台灣有這麼優秀的正好的一個能量量能我們要參加我們應該在可以接受的範圍我們就應該參加可是我們顯然沒有\n就這個部分我只最後一個問題請教好不好很簡單的回應委員就是2016年的時候我們去參加但是我們也對外發言非常的清楚就是沒有接受中國的這些政治條件也沒有接受中國對2758號決議案以及WHO第二五點議案的這種說法\n至於說在2009到2016年之間的這個參與接受了九二條件之後的這個參與至於有關於這件事情是因為每一個政府在針對台灣主權的這個部長上面有不同的這個看法2016年那時候的政府是沒有接受九二共識你這樣的說明當然是可以你從剛剛到現在大概都有提到這些可是2758早就有了\n我現在要說的是2009到2016年這中間如果當民進黨執政以後那裡面有不可接受的條件那可是我們還是參加的你還是接受的那這中間最大的差異到後面2017年到2024年目前我們都沒有辦法參加我們會損失什麼這個部分這個部分必須要把它拿捏清楚未來部長臨會到國安會我們還是希望\n這次幫我們在WHO提案的邦交國有幾個?\n目前正在增加當中因為我們還有好幾天的時間我們預期是所有的邦交國應該都沒有還在增加嗎還沒有增加之前到目前有幾個這個部分容許我就先不對外說明這樣子有困難嗎有好幾個沒有困難是已經有好幾個那什麼時候可以告訴我們可能520之後還是等一下可以先來報告因為有沒有很清楚\n下禮拜五我們就可以公開了五二零之後啊 擔心什麼沒有就是我們要沒有因為我現在問的不是說在你開會正式開會當下而是現在到目前為止有多少邦交國或非邦交國幫我們提案\n多謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.955 --> 00:02.336\n謝謝主席麻煩請部長報言好部長好今天登記質詢的總共有53位委員來賓有32位民進黨的委員19個國民黨的委員2個民眾黨的委員\n\n00:25.049 --> 00:40.682\n民進黨的委員顯然大軍壓境的狀況比較多所以其實沒有施壓的問題今天在國會任何委員只要對於我們的行政業務或者我們在質詢的這個其實是他們的義務跟職責\n\n00:43.104 --> 01:10.087\n所以我想其實不需要套上任何的帽子今天為什麼大家會重視這個當然部長未來你已經邀到國安會你未來的面向更廣不過我們也希望大家可以用對國家利益最好的態度來面對那今天有幾個問題我們還是在這裡請教因為畢竟是在您手上我想要請教我們很多的文件列密的目的是什麼\n\n01:10.848 --> 01:17.410\n因為我自己在之前也大家一直說我洩密可是到現在都沒有說我洩什麼密反而有很多在媒體直播然後透過很多的不該知道機密的人一直說出來沒有人對他有任何的追究這個現象很奇怪所以我想要請教部長的是我們列密的目的是什麼是內容還是那一張紙\n\n01:39.791 --> 02:03.492\n最主要是那個內容以及文件本身我們很認同我們在對於任何的規範或者我們在法律律定的大家去遵守可是我們現在要說的是我們到底在乎的是內容還是那張文件因為已經本末倒置了\n\n02:04.173 --> 02:22.680\n我們從過去到現在不管是國防的武器裝備不管是現在的外交的政策或者對外的很多的種種作為等等我們在乎的我們應該要保守秘密的是我們不要受到干擾而不是在國內引起紛爭這也是這一次為什麼大家會拿出來討論而且\n\n02:24.141 --> 02:24.682\n在俄烏戰爭以來,我們援助烏克蘭累計已經達到1億美金\n\n02:42.782 --> 03:08.623\n那這一次外交部委託捷克以第三方援助烏克蘭有幾個問題希望在這裡可以好好的釐清好不好因為他畢竟花的是國家的預算還有人民的納稅錢首先這個一千萬現金我們提供了一千萬美元的一個捐助那其中匡了百分之三十的金額要向台灣採購我們現在比較\n\n03:13.131 --> 03:14.073\n為什麼這30%的醫療用品要向台灣採購?\n\n03:19.527 --> 03:23.892\n這個是那個立法院在2014年的這個不是2014年因為其實之前我們在援助其他的因為俄武戰爭這個不是第一筆啊你已經累積到1億美金了我們老實說外交部會這麼認真的去追溯到2014年我也很懷疑啊我們現在要講的是為什麼要這麼做因為我們既然是這個是捐助款\n\n03:43.911 --> 03:44.591\n什麼透過第三者?\n\n04:09.560 --> 04:24.673\n可是部長你記得嗎2011年那時候二五戰爭剛開始的時候而且那時候還不是只有在在烏東喔那時候連基輔都是被打的一個範圍可是2011年4月份的時候你還跟基輔市長親自視訊第二次如果說要涉及到中央政府的話這個很困難\n\n04:34.824 --> 04:34.864\n馬文君\n\n04:52.766 --> 04:57.892\n這個已經是烏東在戰爭陰影之下的一個城市可是你也跟他做了視訊所以可見如果我們願意我們可以很清楚的聯繫到或者如果不行那也沒關係可是你必須清楚的了解到他們需要的是什麼可是你用這樣的理由我們不能接受\n\n05:10.948 --> 05:32.315\n如果在當時這麼緊張的狀況之下你都還可以跟他們視訊為什麼到現在甚至你在烏東的一個需求我們還要透過第三者當然也可以不是不行可是為什麼要匡了百分之三十的醫療用品因為我記得那時候我們在圓屋的時候我們也有物資送過去對不對\n\n05:33.835 --> 05:40.963\n那時候物資大家最質疑的或者包括外交部都覺得很傷腦筋的就是我們的運費那你今天歐洲的很多的醫療用品會比我們台灣差嗎你今天是他們的需求\n\n05:48.752 --> 06:15.987\n你今天不是用最好最高級的而是要最迅速最需要的所以怎麼樣的方向會是對他們最好你錢都捐給人家了你為什麼一定要要求他一定30%要跟台灣買這是大家不能理解的目的之一第二個我們3月份的時候其實台南也有民間的企業其實他有送醫療器材到烏克蘭\n\n06:17.611 --> 06:25.977\n那民間都可以跟他們聯繫上都知道他們可能需求什麼那我們怎麼會不知道堂堂一個外交部這是第二個第三個\n\n06:28.516 --> 06:30.977\n我們到底要不要用政府採購法我覺得那個都可以討論可是問題就是我們剛才講的你明明最近的而且你已經把現金送過去你還要在他買買我們這裡的然後再花一筆運費再運到那裡去這不是多此一舉嗎而且你浪費掉那些錢\n\n06:51.460 --> 06:57.405\n這個部分到底後來會被誰又多賺了一筆所以這個是我們覺得應該要很清楚的另外他在3月份他都已經調查這樣的需求現在可不可以告訴我們他們決定現在他們最欠缺的是什麼他們想要買什麼要買多少錢或者多少數量有沒有給我們一個清單\n\n07:13.372 --> 07:20.374\n他們會給我們期中報告這邊我跟委員說明一下部長我覺得期中報告跟他的需求要把它分開因為他從3月到現在已經兩個月如果這是他們急著必須的醫療用品包括藥品這個是不能等的照理說他們的需求因為也不是非常多的錢這怎麼會等到他的期中報告他要跟台灣買我現在說的是要跟台灣買的部分\n\n07:41.978 --> 08:00.487\n他們也有對外來公開一個影帶說裡面這些東西是跟或者是說這些東西是madeinTaiwan那其實我們跟他們講說這個東西是要向台灣採購那這只要是只要是madeinTaiwan不管是什麼樣的這個藝材\n\n08:02.188 --> 08:13.335\n是嗎?不是,就是說他們只要在那個市面上能夠找到什麼樣MadeinTaiwan的這些東西而不是BuyfromTaiwan那這個就符合我們的需求部長,MadeinTaiwan跟BuyfromTaiwan你這個在玩文字遊戲的部長,聽我講完我的問題\n\n08:21.460 --> 08:34.467\n因為今天如果你只是要人家買說是台灣製造的東西在捷克可能可以買到在哪裡可以買到或者只要有台灣的生產的通通可以你的意思是這樣嗎那怎麼會在這裡面規範那通常會是好意的私底下口頭拜託他們說那盡量買我們的我們是在援助其他國家\n\n08:44.972 --> 08:45.192\n馬文君\n\n09:06.738 --> 09:18.387\nMadeinTaiwan跟ByFrontTaiwan這是不一樣的那你現在是針對我們的問題在做這樣的一個解釋而已啦如果是這樣如果是人道救援如果在捷克可以買到你還要求說一定是台灣的那叫什麼人道救援\n\n09:28.618 --> 09:39.638\n如果是這樣的話你剛剛那個理由我覺得就更不可原諒了因為你好的藥品歐洲也很多啊我們很多的那個學名藥我們有很多的\n\n09:40.666 --> 09:46.868\n主要是器材我們台灣是醫療器材的大國歐洲沒有嗎?什麼樣的器材?所以部長你已經講到重點了麻煩你把他們的需求因為你說你不知道他們需要什麼到現在還沒有提供給我們可是你剛剛說他們需要的是器材而且台灣很強那希望你把這個器材他需要的什麼樣的器材提供給我們委員會好不好第二個\n\n10:05.094 --> 10:18.899\n就是說我們現在今天也討論到針對外交部去報告裡面提到的就是我們今天的重點我們對能不能加入WHA\n\n10:20.319 --> 10:34.529\n其實這個部分外交部在報告裡面有提到我們對國外的政府對民意機關還有團體其實他們有很多很多透過媒體也好短片也好投書也好或很多有效的行動也好\n\n10:35.578 --> 11:01.169\n都在支持希望我們可以進入WHA可是我想請教一下臺灣在2009年到2016年都有收到WHO幹事長邀請臺灣以觀察員身份參加WHA的原因跟現在沒有辦法參加的原因你可不可以用比較簡單的方式讓我們知道為什麼在過去可以\n\n11:01.989 --> 11:22.809\n在2009年到2006年我們是以觀察員身份參加的那就2007年以後一直到目前為止今年顯然可能我們也接不到邀請函了那到底是為什麼最主要的原因是什麼2009年那個眾所周知是因為我們接受了中國的這個政治的條件什麼樣的條件\n\n11:25.974 --> 11:49.057\n就是跟中國之間有一些妥協什麼樣的妥協?我們失去什麼?我們所知就是說接受了中國的一些條件比如什麼條件?在那個之前我們看到了世界衛生組織跟中國的一個機密的MOU發現說我們如果說要照這種模式去參與的話是要透過中國\n\n11:49.878 --> 11:50.179\n2016年也是嗎2016年你們接受了嗎\n\n12:02.543 --> 12:06.584\n2016年的時候我那時候在擔任國安會的秘書長的第一天我們就在處理這件事情結果呢如果是這樣你們已經是掌控已經是執政了如果是因為這樣照理說那時候要拒絕參加的可是\n\n12:22.170 --> 12:26.994\n我們還是參加了從2009年到2014年我們2016年我現在要知道的是我們到底失去什麼我們在人家妥協什麼我們才可以參加那我們現在沒有辦法參加然後說包括美國美國你說非常力挺包括布林肯都大聲的疾呼這可見是美國使了非常大的力氣可是我們還是沒有辦法參加那他到底最重要的原因是什麼只是因為我們不願意可是2016年\n\n12:50.492 --> 12:55.473\n民進黨已經執政了我們還是參加啦所以就這個部分我覺得這樣子的說辭可能也沒辦法讓大家可以很信服我們還是希望以整體的國家利益如果因為衛生健康這些主要的一個訴求我們台灣有這麼優秀的正好的一個能量量能我們要參加我們應該在可以接受的範圍我們就應該參加可是我們顯然沒有\n\n13:18.900 --> 13:37.708\n就這個部分我只最後一個問題請教好不好很簡單的回應委員就是2016年的時候我們去參加但是我們也對外發言非常的清楚就是沒有接受中國的這些政治條件也沒有接受中國對2758號決議案以及WHO第二五點議案的這種說法\n\n13:43.290 --> 14:03.818\n至於說在2009到2016年之間的這個參與接受了九二條件之後的這個參與至於有關於這件事情是因為每一個政府在針對台灣主權的這個部長上面有不同的這個看法2016年那時候的政府是沒有接受九二共識你這樣的說明當然是可以你從剛剛到現在大概都有提到這些可是2758早就有了\n\n14:12.682 --> 14:17.847\n我現在要說的是2009到2016年這中間如果當民進黨執政以後那裡面有不可接受的條件那可是我們還是參加的你還是接受的那這中間最大的差異到後面2017年到2024年目前我們都沒有辦法參加我們會損失什麼這個部分這個部分必須要把它拿捏清楚未來部長臨會到國安會我們還是希望\n\n14:38.346 --> 14:39.628\n這次幫我們在WHO提案的邦交國有幾個?\n\n14:55.423 --> 15:18.012\n目前正在增加當中因為我們還有好幾天的時間我們預期是所有的邦交國應該都沒有還在增加嗎還沒有增加之前到目前有幾個這個部分容許我就先不對外說明這樣子有困難嗎有好幾個沒有困難是已經有好幾個那什麼時候可以告訴我們可能520之後還是等一下可以先來報告因為有沒有很清楚\n\n15:25.376 --> 15:28.100\n下禮拜五我們就可以公開了五二零之後啊擔心什麼沒有就是我們要沒有因為我現在問的不是說在你開會正式開會當下而是現在到目前為止有多少邦交國或非邦交國幫我們提案\n\n15:43.586 --> 15:43.747\n多謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.955,"end":2.336,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請部長報言好部長好 今天登記質詢的總共有53位委員來賓有32位民進黨的委員 19個國民黨的委員 2個民眾黨的委員"},{"start":25.049,"end":40.682,"text":"民進黨的委員顯然大軍壓境的狀況比較多所以其實沒有施壓的問題今天在國會任何委員只要對於我們的行政業務或者我們在質詢的這個其實是他們的義務跟職責"},{"start":43.104,"end":70.087,"text":"所以我想其實不需要套上任何的帽子今天為什麼大家會重視這個當然部長未來你已經邀到國安會你未來的面向更廣不過我們也希望大家可以用對國家利益最好的態度來面對那今天有幾個問題我們還是在這裡請教因為畢竟是在您手上我想要請教我們很多的文件列密的目的是什麼"},{"start":70.848,"end":77.41,"text":"因為我自己在之前也大家一直說我洩密可是到現在都沒有說我洩什麼密反而有很多在媒體直播然後透過很多的不該知道機密的人一直說出來沒有人對他有任何的追究這個現象很奇怪所以我想要請教部長的是我們列密的目的是什麼是內容還是那一張紙"},{"start":99.791,"end":123.492,"text":"最主要是那個內容以及文件本身我們很認同我們在對於任何的規範或者我們在法律律定的大家去遵守可是我們現在要說的是我們到底在乎的是內容還是那張文件因為已經本末倒置了"},{"start":124.173,"end":142.68,"text":"我們從過去到現在不管是國防的武器裝備不管是現在的外交的政策或者對外的很多的種種作為等等我們在乎的我們應該要保守秘密的是我們不要受到干擾而不是在國內引起紛爭這也是這一次為什麼大家會拿出來討論而且"},{"start":144.141,"end":144.682,"text":"在俄烏戰爭以來,我們援助烏克蘭累計已經達到1億美金"},{"start":162.782,"end":188.623,"text":"那這一次外交部委託捷克以第三方援助烏克蘭有幾個問題希望在這裡可以好好的釐清好不好因為他畢竟花的是國家的預算還有人民的納稅錢首先這個一千萬現金我們提供了一千萬美元的一個捐助那其中匡了百分之三十的金額要向台灣採購我們現在比較"},{"start":193.131,"end":194.073,"text":"為什麼這30%的醫療用品要向台灣採購?"},{"start":199.527,"end":203.892,"text":"這個是那個立法院在2014年的這個不是2014年因為其實之前我們在援助其他的因為俄武戰爭這個不是第一筆啊你已經累積到1億美金了我們老實說外交部會這麼認真的去追溯到2014年我也很懷疑啊我們現在要講的是為什麼要這麼做因為我們既然是這個是捐助款"},{"start":223.911,"end":224.591,"text":"什麼透過第三者?"},{"start":249.56,"end":264.673,"text":"可是部長你記得嗎2011年那時候二五戰爭剛開始的時候而且那時候還不是只有在在烏東喔那時候連基輔都是被打的一個範圍可是2011年4月份的時候你還跟基輔市長親自視訊第二次如果說要涉及到中央政府的話這個很困難"},{"start":274.824,"end":274.864,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":292.766,"end":297.892,"text":"這個已經是烏東在戰爭陰影之下的一個城市可是你也跟他做了視訊所以可見如果我們願意我們可以很清楚的聯繫到或者如果不行那也沒關係可是你必須清楚的了解到他們需要的是什麼可是你用這樣的理由我們不能接受"},{"start":310.948,"end":332.315,"text":"如果在當時這麼緊張的狀況之下你都還可以跟他們視訊為什麼到現在甚至你在烏東的一個需求我們還要透過第三者當然也可以不是不行可是為什麼要匡了百分之三十的醫療用品因為我記得那時候我們在圓屋的時候我們也有物資送過去對不對"},{"start":333.835,"end":340.963,"text":"那時候物資大家最質疑的或者包括外交部都覺得很傷腦筋的就是我們的運費那你今天歐洲的很多的醫療用品會比我們台灣差嗎你今天是他們的需求"},{"start":348.752,"end":375.987,"text":"你今天不是用最好最高級的而是要最迅速最需要的所以怎麼樣的方向會是對他們最好你錢都捐給人家了你為什麼一定要要求他一定30%要跟台灣買這是大家不能理解的目的之一第二個我們3月份的時候其實台南也有民間的企業其實他有送醫療器材到烏克蘭"},{"start":377.611,"end":385.977,"text":"那民間都可以跟他們聯繫上都知道他們可能需求什麼那我們怎麼會不知道堂堂一個外交部這是第二個第三個"},{"start":388.516,"end":390.977,"text":"我們到底要不要用政府採購法我覺得那個都可以討論可是問題就是我們剛才講的你明明最近的而且你已經把現金送過去你還要在他買買我們這裡的然後再花一筆運費再運到那裡去這不是多此一舉嗎而且你浪費掉那些錢"},{"start":411.46,"end":417.405,"text":"這個部分到底後來會被誰又多賺了一筆所以這個是我們覺得應該要很清楚的另外他在3月份他都已經調查這樣的需求現在可不可以告訴我們他們決定現在他們最欠缺的是什麼他們想要買什麼要買多少錢或者多少數量有沒有給我們一個清單"},{"start":433.372,"end":440.374,"text":"他們會給我們期中報告這邊我跟委員說明一下部長我覺得期中報告跟他的需求要把它分開因為他從3月到現在已經兩個月如果這是他們急著必須的醫療用品包括藥品這個是不能等的照理說他們的需求因為也不是非常多的錢這怎麼會等到他的期中報告他要跟台灣買我現在說的是要跟台灣買的部分"},{"start":461.978,"end":480.487,"text":"他們也有對外來公開一個影帶說裡面這些東西是跟或者是說這些東西是made in Taiwan那其實我們跟他們講說這個東西是要向台灣採購那這只要是只要是made in Taiwan不管是什麼樣的這個藝材"},{"start":482.188,"end":493.335,"text":"是嗎?不是,就是說他們只要在那個市面上能夠找到什麼樣Made in Taiwan的這些東西而不是Buy from Taiwan那這個就符合我們的需求部長,Made in Taiwan跟Buy from Taiwan你這個在玩文字遊戲的部長,聽我講完我的問題"},{"start":501.46,"end":514.467,"text":"因為今天如果你只是要人家買說是台灣製造的東西在捷克可能可以買到在哪裡可以買到或者只要有台灣的生產的通通可以你的意思是這樣嗎那怎麼會在這裡面規範那通常會是好意的私底下口頭拜託他們說那盡量買我們的我們是在援助其他國家"},{"start":524.972,"end":525.192,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":546.738,"end":558.387,"text":"Made in Taiwan 跟 By Front Taiwan 這是不一樣的那你現在是針對我們的問題在做這樣的一個解釋而已啦如果是這樣 如果是人道救援 如果在捷克可以買到你還要求說一定是台灣的 那叫什麼人道救援"},{"start":568.618,"end":579.638,"text":"如果是這樣的話你剛剛那個理由我覺得就更不可原諒了因為你好的藥品歐洲也很多啊我們很多的那個學名藥我們有很多的"},{"start":580.666,"end":586.868,"text":"主要是器材我們台灣是醫療器材的大國歐洲沒有嗎?什麼樣的器材?所以部長你已經講到重點了麻煩你把他們的需求因為你說你不知道他們需要什麼到現在還沒有提供給我們可是你剛剛說他們需要的是器材而且台灣很強那希望你把這個器材他需要的什麼樣的器材提供給我們委員會好不好第二個"},{"start":605.094,"end":618.899,"text":"就是說我們現在今天也討論到針對外交部去報告裡面提到的就是我們今天的重點我們對能不能加入WHA"},{"start":620.319,"end":634.529,"text":"其實這個部分外交部在報告裡面有提到我們對國外的政府對民意機關還有團體其實他們有很多很多透過媒體也好短片也好投書也好或很多有效的行動也好"},{"start":635.578,"end":661.169,"text":"都在支持希望我們可以進入WHA可是我想請教一下臺灣在2009年到2016年都有收到WHO幹事長邀請臺灣以觀察員身份參加WHA的原因跟現在沒有辦法參加的原因你可不可以用比較簡單的方式讓我們知道為什麼在過去可以"},{"start":661.989,"end":682.809,"text":"在2009年到2006年我們是以觀察員身份參加的那就2007年以後一直到目前為止今年顯然可能我們也接不到邀請函了那到底是為什麼最主要的原因是什麼2009年那個眾所周知是因為我們接受了中國的這個政治的條件什麼樣的條件"},{"start":685.974,"end":709.057,"text":"就是跟中國之間有一些妥協什麼樣的妥協?我們失去什麼?我們所知就是說接受了中國的一些條件比如什麼條件?在那個之前我們看到了世界衛生組織跟中國的一個機密的MOU發現說我們如果說要照這種模式去參與的話是要透過中國"},{"start":709.878,"end":710.179,"text":"2016年也是嗎2016年你們接受了嗎"},{"start":722.543,"end":726.584,"text":"2016年的時候我那時候在擔任國安會的秘書長的第一天我們就在處理這件事情結果呢如果是這樣你們已經是掌控已經是執政了如果是因為這樣照理說那時候要拒絕參加的可是"},{"start":742.17,"end":746.994,"text":"我們還是參加了從2009年到2014年我們2016年我現在要知道的是我們到底失去什麼我們在人家妥協什麼我們才可以參加那我們現在沒有辦法參加然後說包括美國美國你說非常力挺包括布林肯都大聲的疾呼這可見是美國使了非常大的力氣可是我們還是沒有辦法參加那他到底最重要的原因是什麼只是因為我們不願意可是2016年"},{"start":770.492,"end":775.473,"text":"民進黨已經執政了我們還是參加啦所以就這個部分我覺得這樣子的說辭可能也沒辦法讓大家可以很信服我們還是希望以整體的國家利益如果因為衛生健康這些主要的一個訴求我們台灣有這麼優秀的正好的一個能量量能我們要參加我們應該在可以接受的範圍我們就應該參加可是我們顯然沒有"},{"start":798.9,"end":817.708,"text":"就這個部分我只最後一個問題請教好不好很簡單的回應委員就是2016年的時候我們去參加但是我們也對外發言非常的清楚就是沒有接受中國的這些政治條件也沒有接受中國對2758號決議案以及WHO第二五點議案的這種說法"},{"start":823.29,"end":843.818,"text":"至於說在2009到2016年之間的這個參與接受了九二條件之後的這個參與至於有關於這件事情是因為每一個政府在針對台灣主權的這個部長上面有不同的這個看法2016年那時候的政府是沒有接受九二共識你這樣的說明當然是可以你從剛剛到現在大概都有提到這些可是2758早就有了"},{"start":852.682,"end":857.847,"text":"我現在要說的是2009到2016年這中間如果當民進黨執政以後那裡面有不可接受的條件那可是我們還是參加的你還是接受的那這中間最大的差異到後面2017年到2024年目前我們都沒有辦法參加我們會損失什麼這個部分這個部分必須要把它拿捏清楚未來部長臨會到國安會我們還是希望"},{"start":878.346,"end":879.628,"text":"這次幫我們在WHO提案的邦交國有幾個?"},{"start":895.423,"end":918.012,"text":"目前正在增加當中因為我們還有好幾天的時間我們預期是所有的邦交國應該都沒有還在增加嗎還沒有增加之前到目前有幾個這個部分容許我就先不對外說明這樣子有困難嗎有好幾個沒有困難是已經有好幾個那什麼時候可以告訴我們可能520之後還是等一下可以先來報告因為有沒有很清楚"},{"start":925.376,"end":928.1,"text":"下禮拜五我們就可以公開了五二零之後啊 擔心什麼沒有就是我們要沒有因為我現在問的不是說在你開會正式開會當下而是現在到目前為止有多少邦交國或非邦交國幫我們提案"},{"start":943.586,"end":943.747,"text":"多謝委員"}]}}}}