{"id":152584,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152584","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc3074dbf94e85205e45fe2b63d20657b6c6e01ba30ddb4afe0f798c8af07a2370ec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"09:59:17 - 10:08:39","影片長度":"00:09:22","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：邀請僑務委員會、外交部、國家安全局報告「中共海外統戰工作對我僑務推展與邦交維持之影響及應處作為」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-21"},"duration":562,"end_time":"2024-05-16T10:08:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T09:59:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":222,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（9時59分）謝謝主席。主席，有請國安局柯副局長。"],["主席：請國安局副局長。"],["柯副局長承亨：委員早！"],["林委員楚茵：早！我延續剛剛王定宇委員的題目，就是有關於臺灣現在所面臨中國威脅的部分。昨天的最新訊息就是中國所謂的把手伸進來臺灣想要做這種打壓，過去它其實懲戒的都是政治人物，但是現在它是不是把所謂的法律戰延伸到了一般的民眾？因為過去被點名的都是民進黨籍的政治人物，但這一次居然連評論的名嘴都登上了，它的講法是因為這些名嘴在電視上面蓄意編造有關大陸的虛假負面訊息，挑動兩岸敵意對立，傷害兩岸同胞的感情，情節嚴重，所以要對他們及他們的家屬來實施懲戒。言下之意是現在已經從所謂的政治人物延伸到一般民眾。當然我必須講這五位當中確實有民進黨籍的政治人物，但是他主要都是在媒體上發言，撇開這一位，其他的就真的只是電視上的媒體人。","站在臺灣這個有言論自由的地方、保障言論自由的地方，中國現在卻把它的法律戰延伸到在臺灣的言論自由，尤其對臺灣的媒體，像這樣要噤聲的狀況，在這之前，國安局有接到這樣的訊息嗎？"],["柯副局長承亨：跟委員報告，中共對我們臺灣的打壓、對民主的破壞，事實上是隨時，而且不斷地在加大，像這種的目的最主要就是要製造一種寒蟬的效應，所以就像委員說的，它以前對政治人物，現在它已經擴大到媒體人。","事實上，跟委員報告，過去這幾年不只是對官員，他們甚至對臺商、臺灣的企業界，有在支持執政黨或是提供政治獻金的，也都在關注，而且就我們國安局所掌握的情資，他們甚至要擴大建立這方面的資料庫，就是對臺灣的各行各業，所以這也是要提醒國人，現在不只是政治人物，不只是名嘴，甚至連各個領域的民眾，只要支持民主運動，甚至有聲援譬如西藏、香港、新疆的這些言論，隨時都會被中共納入這種懲戒名單。"],["林委員楚茵：所以它這樣的作法其實就是要利用一種無形的恐懼，因為過去它是所謂的制裁臺獨分子，但是它現在已經變成是懲戒，也就是懲獨這樣的方式變成是一個新的法律名詞，而這樣的新法律名詞是把它的法律戰延伸到我們臺灣境內，你認同嗎？這樣的方式是不是變成連一般民眾也不能發聲，如果你一旦發聲，你離開臺灣，它就可能對你採取法律行動。","我們過去都知道銅鑼灣事件，銅鑼灣書店的大股東不是在香港被消失，他其實是在到泰國旅行的時候突然間就不見了，如果根據我們過去所翻閱的資料，當時的討論知道這位大股東還不是中國香港而已，他事實上還有其他國家的國籍，當時他是瑞典籍，但是他依舊可以在泰國被消失。現在國臺辦直接發文要對以上這五個人及他的家屬實施懲戒，國臺辦這樣的作法，國安局怎麼看？你們認為，現在是不是連一般民眾就只有留在臺灣才安全，出去其他國家會不會重演像銅鑼灣事件這樣的狀況，讓臺灣變成真的香港化，先從沒有言論自由、先從被噤聲開始？"],["柯副局長承亨：跟委員報告，我們當然沒辦法認同這樣的作為，而且表示譴責，我們從中共做這樣恐嚇的動作之後國際媒體的關注度就知道，不只我們沒辦法接受，連國際民主國家、民主陣營、民主社會，沒有人可以接受這種所謂域外的被管轄，要對民主自由言論進行打壓的各種作為，我覺得中共雖然只是在對臺灣加大恐嚇的力道，但是它在國際上引起的負面效應反而會更大。"],["林委員楚茵：所以現在國際上面訊息的正確性是非常重要的，因為我們在過去的八年不斷地強調，臺灣是臺灣，臺灣不是中國的一部分，所以當我們遇到事情的時候，我們不能變成內部解決，我們必須要靠外面國際友邦一起來支撐臺灣的自由、民主及獨立。但是現在它如果從官方延伸到民間的時候，是有可能切斷國際社會與我們的連結。其實過去我一直在追，副局長，你也知道我問過有關於這種地方包圍中央，這種所謂兩手策略，一手拉、一手打，拉的部分是說它現在呈現以通促融，讓你覺得兩岸一家親。另外，如果現在名嘴不敢發聲、民眾不敢發聲，民眾不敢強調自己不是中國人、不是支持中國共產黨，這個打就會出現它的效果，那麼臺灣變香港化，你認為有沒有可能？"],["柯副局長承亨：跟委員報告，我想中共做這樣的恐嚇作為只是會加深國人的反彈，而且國際上對中共的這種批評跟戒心反而會更大。我覺得國人在臺灣享受很難得的言論自由跟民主的體制，當然有一個風險，就是如果要進去陸港澳地區，這個上次委員也關心過，就會有風險。"],["林委員楚茵：是，但是我現在更擔心的不是只有陸港澳，因為有可能延伸到跟它在外交上比較友好的國家，然後就說這個人是臺灣人，因為臺灣內部都說兩岸一家親，所以他是中國人，我就可以帶走。為什麼我特別找出銅鑼灣的案例？因為銅鑼灣書店的大股東，他不是在香港被消失，他是在泰國，在一個我們認為相對安全的地方，所以這也是我認為國安局必須要注意的，這會不會是下一個中國對於臺灣的威脅或是恫嚇所要施展的新的方向或新的樣態？"],["柯副局長承亨：我們完全同意委員的看法。事實上，不久之前澳洲有一個機構才公布這幾年來中國人在海外不自願地被帶回中國去的，大概有兩百八十幾位，這些就表示中國對於言論自由的打壓，對於批評他們的一些人士，事實上採取的手段越來越強烈，但是就像我剛剛跟委員報告的，國際上對這個的反應跟反制措施應該也會更大。"],["林委員楚茵：只剩下最後一點時間，不好意思，主席，我想要請外交部陳常次。對面中國這樣的打壓，雖然五位名嘴可以一笑置之，但是事實上我覺得這是一個嚴肅的事情，就像剛剛柯副局長所說的，國際上對於這件事情的反應跟反饋，現在外交部收到的訊息是什麼？"],["陳次長立國：就如同剛剛委員所表達的關切以及柯副局長剛剛的說明，全世界的民主國家沒有一個會容忍中國在境外這種所謂的長臂管轄，因為這不僅是戕害各國的主權，還有人民的自由，當然這也對於未來它自己的形象，還有未來它針對自己的國人，甚至它如何去讓他們的國人信服他們的體制、他們所謂的治理是比我們還好的，這個當然不是一個可以獲得國際支持的傾向。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我希望外交部持續要把這樣國人的反應、反彈傳達出去，不能營造變成是我們覺得兩岸就是一家親，然後中國不能批評這樣的事情，我們就默許、我們就吞了，好嗎？"],["陳次長立國：當然不會，外交部會全力而為。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來請黃仁委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":38,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-21","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","王定宇","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","麥玉珍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會、外交部、國家安全局報告「中共海外統戰工作對我僑務推展與邦交維持之影響\n及應處作為」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134801_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"152584","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152584","tool":"pyannote","id":"152584-pyannote"},"job_id":"ILfPVyN4XcJwBuqV","queued_at":"2024-05-30 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0.884}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 16.397, \"end\": 16.918, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"懲\"}, {\"word\": \"戒\", \"start\": 16.918, \"end\": 17.078, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 17.078, \"end\": 17.198, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 17.198, \"end\": 17.338, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 17.338, \"end\": 17.478, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 17.478, \"end\": 17.638, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 17.638, \"end\": 17.738, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 17.738, \"end\": 17.898, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"治\", \"start\": 17.898, \"end\": 17.998, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 17.998, \"end\": 18.178, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"物\", \"start\": 18.178, \"end\": 18.378, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 18.378, \"end\": 18.538, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 18.538, \"end\": 18.558, 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\"end\": 74.121, \"text\": \"那麼嚴重情節嚴重所以要對他們及他們的家屬來實施懲戒言下之意是現在已經從所謂的政治人物延伸到一般民眾而且他刻意當然我必須講這五位當中確實有民進黨籍的這樣的一個政治人物但是他主要都是在媒體上的發言不過撇開這一位\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 46.593, \"end\": 47.113, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"嚴\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 47.113, \"end\": 47.433, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 47.433, \"end\": 48.173, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"節\"}, {\"word\": \"嚴\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 48.173, \"end\": 48.414, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 48.414, \"end\": 48.594, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 48.594, \"end\": 49.094, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 49.094, \"end\": 49.714, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 49.714, \"end\": 50.494, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 50.494, \"end\": 50.694, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 50.694, \"end\": 51.014, \"score\": 0.89}, 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137.743, \"text\": \"事實上跟委員報告其實過去這幾年不只是對這種官員甚至他們也對臺商臺灣的企業界有哪一些在支持執政黨\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 122.349, \"end\": 122.49, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 122.49, \"end\": 123.831, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 123.831, \"end\": 123.971, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 123.971, \"end\": 124.371, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 124.371, \"end\": 125.232, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 125.232, \"end\": 126.533, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 126.533, \"end\": 126.994, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 126.994, \"end\": 127.754, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 127.754, \"end\": 127.894, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 127.894, \"end\": 128.075, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 128.075, 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\"各位委員報告我們當然沒辦法認同這樣的作為而且表示譴責我們從中共做這樣的這個恐嚇的動作之後國際媒體的關注度就知道不只我們沒辦法接受連國際民主國家民主陣營民主社會沒有人可以接受這種這種所謂的域外的常備管轄要對民主自由言論進行打壓的各種作為我覺得中共\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 265.233, \"end\": 265.373, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 265.373, \"end\": 265.553, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 265.553, \"end\": 265.733, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 265.733, \"end\": 266.073, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 266.073, \"end\": 266.494, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 266.494, \"end\": 266.694, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 266.694, \"end\": 267.094, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 267.094, \"end\": 267.914, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 267.914, \"end\": 268.355, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 268.355, 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00:00:18,578\n我跟您請問我延續剛剛這個王定宇委員的題目就是有關於台灣現在所面臨的中國的威脅的部分我想昨天的最新訊息就是中國可以說對於台灣的這個所謂把手伸進來想要做這種打壓過去呢他其實懲戒的可能都是政治人物我們先來看\n\n2\n00:00:19,819 --> 00:00:38,529\n但是現在呢他把他的這個所謂的法律戰是不是延伸到了一般的民眾因為過去被點名的都是民進黨級的政治人物但這一次居然連評論的名嘴都登上了他的講法是說因為這些名嘴呢在電視上面蓄意編造有關大陸的虛假負面的訊息那麼挑動兩岸敵意對立傷害兩岸同胞的感情\n\n3\n00:00:46,593 --> 00:01:14,121\n那麼嚴重情節嚴重所以要對他們及他們的家屬來實施懲戒言下之意是現在已經從所謂的政治人物延伸到一般民眾而且他刻意當然我必須講這五位當中確實有民進黨籍的這樣的一個政治人物但是他主要都是在媒體上的發言不過撇開這一位\n\n4\n00:01:15,041 --> 00:01:38,887\n其他的他就真的是電視上的媒體人站在一個台灣有言論自由的地方是保障言論自由的地方但是中國現在卻把他的法律戰延伸到在台灣的言論自由台灣的發表尤其台灣的媒體像這樣的要噤聲的狀況在這之前國安局有接到這樣的訊息嗎?\n\n5\n00:01:40,489 --> 00:01:59,107\n跟委員報告中共對我們台灣的打壓對民主的這種破壞事實上是隨時而且不斷的在加大像這種的目的事實上最主要就是要製造一種寒產的效應所以就像委員說的他以前對政治人物現在他已經擴大到\n\n6\n00:02:02,349 --> 00:02:17,743\n事實上跟委員報告其實過去這幾年不只是對這種官員甚至他們也對臺商臺灣的企業界有哪一些在支持執政黨\n\n7\n00:02:19,108 --> 00:02:19,368\n李卓人議員\n\n8\n00:02:41,986 --> 00:02:47,591\n所以他這樣的做法其實就是要利用一種無形的恐懼因為過去他可能是用這種所謂的制裁台獨分子\n\n9\n00:03:05,245 --> 00:03:24,393\n但是他現在已經變成是懲戒也就是說懲毒這樣的一個方式變成是一個新的法律名詞而這樣的新法律名詞是把他的法律戰延伸到我們台灣境內你認同嗎?而這樣的方式是不是變成是說只要是一般民眾你就不能發聲如果你一旦發聲你離開台灣\n\n10\n00:03:26,534 --> 00:03:36,121\n他就可能對你採取法律行動來看下一張我們過去都知道銅鑼灣事件銅鑼灣事件的大股東他不是在香港被消失他其實是在到泰國去旅行的時候突然間就不見了而且如果根據我們過去所翻閱的資料當時的討論知道這位大股東他還不是說他就是中國香港而已喔\n\n11\n00:03:51,272 --> 00:03:56,079\n他事實上還有其他國家的國籍當時他是瑞典籍但是他依舊可以在泰國被消失現在國台辦直接發文說我要對這以上五個人跟他的家屬實施懲戒國台辦\n\n12\n00:04:06,895 --> 00:04:16,444\n這樣的一個做法,國安局怎麼看?而你們認為,現在是不是連一般民眾就只有留在台灣才安全?出去其他國家,會不會重演像銅鑼灣這樣的狀況,讓你變成是台灣真的香港化,先從沒有言論自由,從先從被噤聲開始?\n\n13\n00:04:25,233 --> 00:04:54,029\n各位委員報告我們當然沒辦法認同這樣的作為而且表示譴責我們從中共做這樣的這個恐嚇的動作之後國際媒體的關注度就知道不只我們沒辦法接受連國際民主國家民主陣營民主社會沒有人可以接受這種這種所謂的域外的常備管轄要對民主自由言論進行打壓的各種作為我覺得中共\n\n14\n00:04:55,189 --> 00:05:19,630\n雖然只是在對台灣加大恐嚇的力道但是他在國際上引起的負面效應反而會更大所以現在國際上面的訊息的正確性是非常重要的因為我們在這過去的八年不斷的強調台灣是台灣台灣不是中國的一部分所以當我們遇到事情的時候我們不能變成是說內部解決我們必須要靠\n\n15\n00:05:20,350 --> 00:05:31,200\n外面國際友邦一起來支撐台灣的自由、民主跟獨立但是我們來看下面就是現在他如果從官方延伸到民間的時候是有可能切斷國際社會跟我們的連結來看下一張\n\n16\n00:05:34,298 --> 00:06:02,247\n其實過去我一直在追包括這個副局長你也知道我問過有關於這種地方包圍中央這種所謂兩手策略一手拉一手打打的部分一拉是說他現在呈現是以通促容讓你覺得說兩岸一家親另外如果說現在民嘴不敢發聲民眾不敢發聲民眾不敢強調自己不是中國人不是支持中國共產黨\n\n17\n00:06:03,487 --> 00:06:05,113\n那麼這個打就會出現它的效果那麼台灣變香港的話你認為有沒有可能?\n\n18\n00:06:11,861 --> 00:06:34,908\n我想中共做這樣的恐嚇作為只是會加深國人的反彈而且國際上對中共的這種批評跟戒心反而會更大我覺得國人我們在台灣有享受很難得的言論自由跟民主的體制\n\n19\n00:06:36,068 --> 00:06:51,129\n當然有一個風險就是如果要進去鹿港澳地區這我們上次委員也關心過但是我現在更擔心的不是只有鹿港澳因為他可能延伸到跟他在外交上比較友好的國家\n\n20\n00:06:51,730 --> 00:07:18,344\n然後他就講說這個人他是台灣人因為台灣內部都說兩岸一家親所以他是中國人我就可以帶走為什麼我特別找出銅鑼灣的案例因為銅鑼灣的大股東他不是在香港被消失他是在泰國在一個我們認為相對安全的地方所以這個也是一個其實我認為國安局必須要注意的這會不會是另外\n\n21\n00:07:19,224 --> 00:07:40,763\n他們下一個中國對於台灣的威脅或是恫嚇其實所要施展的新的方向或新的樣態我們完全同意委員的看法事實上不久之前澳洲有一個機構才公布這幾年來就是中國人在海外不自願的被帶回中國去的大概有280幾位這些\n\n22\n00:07:43,626 --> 00:07:46,667\n所以現在最後一點時間不好意思主席我想要請我們的外交部的陳昌次\n\n23\n00:08:16,172 --> 00:08:31,367\n面對中國的這樣的打壓雖然五味鳴嘴可以一笑置之但是事實上我覺得這是一個嚴肅的事情那麼就像剛剛這個柯局長所說的那麼國際上對於這件事情他們的反應跟反饋現在外交部收到訊息是什麼\n\n24\n00:08:32,428 --> 00:08:52,102\n就如同剛剛委員所表達的關切以及科夫局長剛剛的說明全世界的民主國家沒有一個會容忍中國這樣的境外的這種所謂的常備管轄因為這不僅是所謂的強害各國的主權還有人民的自由當然這也是對於未來他自己的形象還有未來他\n\n25\n00:08:52,822 --> 00:08:53,302\n當然不會,外交部會全力而為。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n49\t18578\t我跟您請問我延續剛剛這個王定宇委員的題目就是有關於台灣現在所面臨的中國的威脅的部分我想昨天的最新訊息就是中國可以說對於台灣的這個所謂把手伸進來想要做這種打壓過去呢他其實懲戒的可能都是政治人物我們先來看\n19819\t38529\t但是現在呢他把他的這個所謂的法律戰是不是延伸到了一般的民眾因為過去被點名的都是民進黨級的政治人物但這一次居然連評論的名嘴都登上了他的講法是說因為這些名嘴呢在電視上面蓄意編造有關大陸的虛假負面的訊息那麼挑動兩岸敵意對立傷害兩岸同胞的感情\n46593\t74121\t那麼嚴重情節嚴重所以要對他們及他們的家屬來實施懲戒言下之意是現在已經從所謂的政治人物延伸到一般民眾而且他刻意當然我必須講這五位當中確實有民進黨籍的這樣的一個政治人物但是他主要都是在媒體上的發言不過撇開這一位\n75041\t98887\t其他的他就真的是電視上的媒體人站在一個台灣有言論自由的地方是保障言論自由的地方但是中國現在卻把他的法律戰延伸到在台灣的言論自由台灣的發表尤其台灣的媒體像這樣的要噤聲的狀況在這之前國安局有接到這樣的訊息嗎?\n100489\t119107\t跟委員報告中共對我們台灣的打壓對民主的這種破壞事實上是隨時而且不斷的在加大像這種的目的事實上最主要就是要製造一種寒產的效應所以就像委員說的他以前對政治人物現在他已經擴大到\n122349\t137743\t事實上跟委員報告其實過去這幾年不只是對這種官員甚至他們也對臺商臺灣的企業界有哪一些在支持執政黨\n139108\t139368\t李卓人議員\n161986\t167591\t所以他這樣的做法其實就是要利用一種無形的恐懼因為過去他可能是用這種所謂的制裁台獨分子\n185245\t204393\t但是他現在已經變成是懲戒也就是說懲毒這樣的一個方式變成是一個新的法律名詞而這樣的新法律名詞是把他的法律戰延伸到我們台灣境內你認同嗎?而這樣的方式是不是變成是說只要是一般民眾你就不能發聲如果你一旦發聲你離開台灣\n206534\t216121\t他就可能對你採取法律行動來看下一張我們過去都知道銅鑼灣事件銅鑼灣事件的大股東他不是在香港被消失他其實是在到泰國去旅行的時候突然間就不見了而且如果根據我們過去所翻閱的資料當時的討論知道這位大股東他還不是說他就是中國香港而已喔\n231272\t236079\t他事實上還有其他國家的國籍當時他是瑞典籍但是他依舊可以在泰國被消失現在國台辦直接發文說我要對這以上五個人跟他的家屬實施懲戒國台辦\n246895\t256444\t這樣的一個做法,國安局怎麼看?而你們認為,現在是不是連一般民眾就只有留在台灣才安全?出去其他國家,會不會重演像銅鑼灣這樣的狀況,讓你變成是台灣真的香港化,先從沒有言論自由,從先從被噤聲開始?\n265233\t294029\t各位委員報告我們當然沒辦法認同這樣的作為而且表示譴責我們從中共做這樣的這個恐嚇的動作之後國際媒體的關注度就知道不只我們沒辦法接受連國際民主國家民主陣營民主社會沒有人可以接受這種這種所謂的域外的常備管轄要對民主自由言論進行打壓的各種作為我覺得中共\n295189\t319630\t雖然只是在對台灣加大恐嚇的力道但是他在國際上引起的負面效應反而會更大所以現在國際上面的訊息的正確性是非常重要的因為我們在這過去的八年不斷的強調台灣是台灣台灣不是中國的一部分所以當我們遇到事情的時候我們不能變成是說內部解決我們必須要靠\n320350\t331200\t外面國際友邦一起來支撐台灣的自由、民主跟獨立但是我們來看下面就是現在他如果從官方延伸到民間的時候是有可能切斷國際社會跟我們的連結來看下一張\n334298\t362247\t其實過去我一直在追包括這個副局長你也知道我問過有關於這種地方包圍中央這種所謂兩手策略一手拉一手打打的部分一拉是說他現在呈現是以通促容讓你覺得說兩岸一家親另外如果說現在民嘴不敢發聲民眾不敢發聲民眾不敢強調自己不是中國人不是支持中國共產黨\n363487\t365113\t那麼這個打就會出現它的效果那麼台灣變香港的話你認為有沒有可能?\n371861\t394908\t我想中共做這樣的恐嚇作為只是會加深國人的反彈而且國際上對中共的這種批評跟戒心反而會更大我覺得國人我們在台灣有享受很難得的言論自由跟民主的體制\n396068\t411129\t當然有一個風險就是如果要進去鹿港澳地區這我們上次委員也關心過但是我現在更擔心的不是只有鹿港澳因為他可能延伸到跟他在外交上比較友好的國家\n411730\t438344\t然後他就講說這個人他是台灣人因為台灣內部都說兩岸一家親所以他是中國人我就可以帶走為什麼我特別找出銅鑼灣的案例因為銅鑼灣的大股東他不是在香港被消失他是在泰國在一個我們認為相對安全的地方所以這個也是一個其實我認為國安局必須要注意的這會不會是另外\n439224\t460763\t他們下一個中國對於台灣的威脅或是恫嚇其實所要施展的新的方向或新的樣態我們完全同意委員的看法事實上不久之前澳洲有一個機構才公布這幾年來就是中國人在海外不自願的被帶回中國去的大概有280幾位這些\n463626\t466667\t所以現在最後一點時間不好意思主席我想要請我們的外交部的陳昌次\n496172\t511367\t面對中國的這樣的打壓雖然五味鳴嘴可以一笑置之但是事實上我覺得這是一個嚴肅的事情那麼就像剛剛這個柯局長所說的那麼國際上對於這件事情他們的反應跟反饋現在外交部收到訊息是什麼\n512428\t532102\t就如同剛剛委員所表達的關切以及科夫局長剛剛的說明全世界的民主國家沒有一個會容忍中國這樣的境外的這種所謂的常備管轄因為這不僅是所謂的強害各國的主權還有人民的自由當然這也是對於未來他自己的形象還有未來他\n532822\t533302\t當然不會,外交部會全力而為。\n","txt":"我跟您請問我延續剛剛這個王定宇委員的題目就是有關於台灣現在所面臨的中國的威脅的部分我想昨天的最新訊息就是中國可以說對於台灣的這個所謂把手伸進來想要做這種打壓過去呢他其實懲戒的可能都是政治人物我們先來看\n但是現在呢他把他的這個所謂的法律戰是不是延伸到了一般的民眾因為過去被點名的都是民進黨級的政治人物但這一次居然連評論的名嘴都登上了他的講法是說因為這些名嘴呢在電視上面蓄意編造有關大陸的虛假負面的訊息那麼挑動兩岸敵意對立傷害兩岸同胞的感情\n那麼嚴重情節嚴重所以要對他們及他們的家屬來實施懲戒言下之意是現在已經從所謂的政治人物延伸到一般民眾而且他刻意當然我必須講這五位當中確實有民進黨籍的這樣的一個政治人物但是他主要都是在媒體上的發言不過撇開這一位\n其他的他就真的是電視上的媒體人站在一個台灣有言論自由的地方是保障言論自由的地方但是中國現在卻把他的法律戰延伸到在台灣的言論自由台灣的發表尤其台灣的媒體像這樣的要噤聲的狀況在這之前國安局有接到這樣的訊息嗎?\n跟委員報告中共對我們台灣的打壓對民主的這種破壞事實上是隨時而且不斷的在加大像這種的目的事實上最主要就是要製造一種寒產的效應所以就像委員說的他以前對政治人物現在他已經擴大到\n事實上跟委員報告其實過去這幾年不只是對這種官員甚至他們也對臺商臺灣的企業界有哪一些在支持執政黨\n李卓人議員\n所以他這樣的做法其實就是要利用一種無形的恐懼因為過去他可能是用這種所謂的制裁台獨分子\n但是他現在已經變成是懲戒也就是說懲毒這樣的一個方式變成是一個新的法律名詞而這樣的新法律名詞是把他的法律戰延伸到我們台灣境內你認同嗎?而這樣的方式是不是變成是說只要是一般民眾你就不能發聲如果你一旦發聲你離開台灣\n他就可能對你採取法律行動來看下一張我們過去都知道銅鑼灣事件銅鑼灣事件的大股東他不是在香港被消失他其實是在到泰國去旅行的時候突然間就不見了而且如果根據我們過去所翻閱的資料當時的討論知道這位大股東他還不是說他就是中國香港而已喔\n他事實上還有其他國家的國籍當時他是瑞典籍但是他依舊可以在泰國被消失現在國台辦直接發文說我要對這以上五個人跟他的家屬實施懲戒國台辦\n這樣的一個做法,國安局怎麼看?而你們認為,現在是不是連一般民眾就只有留在台灣才安全?出去其他國家,會不會重演像銅鑼灣這樣的狀況,讓你變成是台灣真的香港化,先從沒有言論自由,從先從被噤聲開始?\n各位委員報告我們當然沒辦法認同這樣的作為而且表示譴責我們從中共做這樣的這個恐嚇的動作之後國際媒體的關注度就知道不只我們沒辦法接受連國際民主國家民主陣營民主社會沒有人可以接受這種這種所謂的域外的常備管轄要對民主自由言論進行打壓的各種作為我覺得中共\n雖然只是在對台灣加大恐嚇的力道但是他在國際上引起的負面效應反而會更大所以現在國際上面的訊息的正確性是非常重要的因為我們在這過去的八年不斷的強調台灣是台灣台灣不是中國的一部分所以當我們遇到事情的時候我們不能變成是說內部解決我們必須要靠\n外面國際友邦一起來支撐台灣的自由、民主跟獨立但是我們來看下面就是現在他如果從官方延伸到民間的時候是有可能切斷國際社會跟我們的連結來看下一張\n其實過去我一直在追包括這個副局長你也知道我問過有關於這種地方包圍中央這種所謂兩手策略一手拉一手打打的部分一拉是說他現在呈現是以通促容讓你覺得說兩岸一家親另外如果說現在民嘴不敢發聲民眾不敢發聲民眾不敢強調自己不是中國人不是支持中國共產黨\n那麼這個打就會出現它的效果那麼台灣變香港的話你認為有沒有可能?\n我想中共做這樣的恐嚇作為只是會加深國人的反彈而且國際上對中共的這種批評跟戒心反而會更大我覺得國人我們在台灣有享受很難得的言論自由跟民主的體制\n當然有一個風險就是如果要進去鹿港澳地區這我們上次委員也關心過但是我現在更擔心的不是只有鹿港澳因為他可能延伸到跟他在外交上比較友好的國家\n然後他就講說這個人他是台灣人因為台灣內部都說兩岸一家親所以他是中國人我就可以帶走為什麼我特別找出銅鑼灣的案例因為銅鑼灣的大股東他不是在香港被消失他是在泰國在一個我們認為相對安全的地方所以這個也是一個其實我認為國安局必須要注意的這會不會是另外\n他們下一個中國對於台灣的威脅或是恫嚇其實所要施展的新的方向或新的樣態我們完全同意委員的看法事實上不久之前澳洲有一個機構才公布這幾年來就是中國人在海外不自願的被帶回中國去的大概有280幾位這些\n所以現在最後一點時間不好意思主席我想要請我們的外交部的陳昌次\n面對中國的這樣的打壓雖然五味鳴嘴可以一笑置之但是事實上我覺得這是一個嚴肅的事情那麼就像剛剛這個柯局長所說的那麼國際上對於這件事情他們的反應跟反饋現在外交部收到訊息是什麼\n就如同剛剛委員所表達的關切以及科夫局長剛剛的說明全世界的民主國家沒有一個會容忍中國這樣的境外的這種所謂的常備管轄因為這不僅是所謂的強害各國的主權還有人民的自由當然這也是對於未來他自己的形象還有未來他\n當然不會,外交部會全力而為。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.049 --> 00:18.578\n我跟您請問我延續剛剛這個王定宇委員的題目就是有關於台灣現在所面臨的中國的威脅的部分我想昨天的最新訊息就是中國可以說對於台灣的這個所謂把手伸進來想要做這種打壓過去呢他其實懲戒的可能都是政治人物我們先來看\n\n00:19.819 --> 00:38.529\n但是現在呢他把他的這個所謂的法律戰是不是延伸到了一般的民眾因為過去被點名的都是民進黨級的政治人物但這一次居然連評論的名嘴都登上了他的講法是說因為這些名嘴呢在電視上面蓄意編造有關大陸的虛假負面的訊息那麼挑動兩岸敵意對立傷害兩岸同胞的感情\n\n00:46.593 --> 01:14.121\n那麼嚴重情節嚴重所以要對他們及他們的家屬來實施懲戒言下之意是現在已經從所謂的政治人物延伸到一般民眾而且他刻意當然我必須講這五位當中確實有民進黨籍的這樣的一個政治人物但是他主要都是在媒體上的發言不過撇開這一位\n\n01:15.041 --> 01:38.887\n其他的他就真的是電視上的媒體人站在一個台灣有言論自由的地方是保障言論自由的地方但是中國現在卻把他的法律戰延伸到在台灣的言論自由台灣的發表尤其台灣的媒體像這樣的要噤聲的狀況在這之前國安局有接到這樣的訊息嗎?\n\n01:40.489 --> 01:59.107\n跟委員報告中共對我們台灣的打壓對民主的這種破壞事實上是隨時而且不斷的在加大像這種的目的事實上最主要就是要製造一種寒產的效應所以就像委員說的他以前對政治人物現在他已經擴大到\n\n02:02.349 --> 02:17.743\n事實上跟委員報告其實過去這幾年不只是對這種官員甚至他們也對臺商臺灣的企業界有哪一些在支持執政黨\n\n02:19.108 --> 02:19.368\n李卓人議員\n\n02:41.986 --> 02:47.591\n所以他這樣的做法其實就是要利用一種無形的恐懼因為過去他可能是用這種所謂的制裁台獨分子\n\n03:05.245 --> 03:24.393\n但是他現在已經變成是懲戒也就是說懲毒這樣的一個方式變成是一個新的法律名詞而這樣的新法律名詞是把他的法律戰延伸到我們台灣境內你認同嗎?而這樣的方式是不是變成是說只要是一般民眾你就不能發聲如果你一旦發聲你離開台灣\n\n03:26.534 --> 03:36.121\n他就可能對你採取法律行動來看下一張我們過去都知道銅鑼灣事件銅鑼灣事件的大股東他不是在香港被消失他其實是在到泰國去旅行的時候突然間就不見了而且如果根據我們過去所翻閱的資料當時的討論知道這位大股東他還不是說他就是中國香港而已喔\n\n03:51.272 --> 03:56.079\n他事實上還有其他國家的國籍當時他是瑞典籍但是他依舊可以在泰國被消失現在國台辦直接發文說我要對這以上五個人跟他的家屬實施懲戒國台辦\n\n04:06.895 --> 04:16.444\n這樣的一個做法,國安局怎麼看?而你們認為,現在是不是連一般民眾就只有留在台灣才安全?出去其他國家,會不會重演像銅鑼灣這樣的狀況,讓你變成是台灣真的香港化,先從沒有言論自由,從先從被噤聲開始?\n\n04:25.233 --> 04:54.029\n各位委員報告我們當然沒辦法認同這樣的作為而且表示譴責我們從中共做這樣的這個恐嚇的動作之後國際媒體的關注度就知道不只我們沒辦法接受連國際民主國家民主陣營民主社會沒有人可以接受這種這種所謂的域外的常備管轄要對民主自由言論進行打壓的各種作為我覺得中共\n\n04:55.189 --> 05:19.630\n雖然只是在對台灣加大恐嚇的力道但是他在國際上引起的負面效應反而會更大所以現在國際上面的訊息的正確性是非常重要的因為我們在這過去的八年不斷的強調台灣是台灣台灣不是中國的一部分所以當我們遇到事情的時候我們不能變成是說內部解決我們必須要靠\n\n05:20.350 --> 05:31.200\n外面國際友邦一起來支撐台灣的自由、民主跟獨立但是我們來看下面就是現在他如果從官方延伸到民間的時候是有可能切斷國際社會跟我們的連結來看下一張\n\n05:34.298 --> 06:02.247\n其實過去我一直在追包括這個副局長你也知道我問過有關於這種地方包圍中央這種所謂兩手策略一手拉一手打打的部分一拉是說他現在呈現是以通促容讓你覺得說兩岸一家親另外如果說現在民嘴不敢發聲民眾不敢發聲民眾不敢強調自己不是中國人不是支持中國共產黨\n\n06:03.487 --> 06:05.113\n那麼這個打就會出現它的效果那麼台灣變香港的話你認為有沒有可能?\n\n06:11.861 --> 06:34.908\n我想中共做這樣的恐嚇作為只是會加深國人的反彈而且國際上對中共的這種批評跟戒心反而會更大我覺得國人我們在台灣有享受很難得的言論自由跟民主的體制\n\n06:36.068 --> 06:51.129\n當然有一個風險就是如果要進去鹿港澳地區這我們上次委員也關心過但是我現在更擔心的不是只有鹿港澳因為他可能延伸到跟他在外交上比較友好的國家\n\n06:51.730 --> 07:18.344\n然後他就講說這個人他是台灣人因為台灣內部都說兩岸一家親所以他是中國人我就可以帶走為什麼我特別找出銅鑼灣的案例因為銅鑼灣的大股東他不是在香港被消失他是在泰國在一個我們認為相對安全的地方所以這個也是一個其實我認為國安局必須要注意的這會不會是另外\n\n07:19.224 --> 07:40.763\n他們下一個中國對於台灣的威脅或是恫嚇其實所要施展的新的方向或新的樣態我們完全同意委員的看法事實上不久之前澳洲有一個機構才公布這幾年來就是中國人在海外不自願的被帶回中國去的大概有280幾位這些\n\n07:43.626 --> 07:46.667\n所以現在最後一點時間不好意思主席我想要請我們的外交部的陳昌次\n\n08:16.172 --> 08:31.367\n面對中國的這樣的打壓雖然五味鳴嘴可以一笑置之但是事實上我覺得這是一個嚴肅的事情那麼就像剛剛這個柯局長所說的那麼國際上對於這件事情他們的反應跟反饋現在外交部收到訊息是什麼\n\n08:32.428 --> 08:52.102\n就如同剛剛委員所表達的關切以及科夫局長剛剛的說明全世界的民主國家沒有一個會容忍中國這樣的境外的這種所謂的常備管轄因為這不僅是所謂的強害各國的主權還有人民的自由當然這也是對於未來他自己的形象還有未來他\n\n08:52.822 --> 08:53.302\n當然不會,外交部會全力而為。\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.049,"end":18.578,"text":"我跟您請問我延續剛剛這個王定宇委員的題目就是有關於台灣現在所面臨的中國的威脅的部分我想昨天的最新訊息就是中國可以說對於台灣的這個所謂把手伸進來想要做這種打壓過去呢他其實懲戒的可能都是政治人物我們先來看"},{"start":19.819,"end":38.529,"text":"但是現在呢他把他的這個所謂的法律戰是不是延伸到了一般的民眾因為過去被點名的都是民進黨級的政治人物但這一次居然連評論的名嘴都登上了他的講法是說因為這些名嘴呢在電視上面蓄意編造有關大陸的虛假負面的訊息那麼挑動兩岸敵意對立傷害兩岸同胞的感情"},{"start":46.593,"end":74.121,"text":"那麼嚴重情節嚴重所以要對他們及他們的家屬來實施懲戒言下之意是現在已經從所謂的政治人物延伸到一般民眾而且他刻意當然我必須講這五位當中確實有民進黨籍的這樣的一個政治人物但是他主要都是在媒體上的發言不過撇開這一位"},{"start":75.041,"end":98.887,"text":"其他的他就真的是電視上的媒體人站在一個台灣有言論自由的地方是保障言論自由的地方但是中國現在卻把他的法律戰延伸到在台灣的言論自由台灣的發表尤其台灣的媒體像這樣的要噤聲的狀況在這之前國安局有接到這樣的訊息嗎?"},{"start":100.489,"end":119.107,"text":"跟委員報告中共對我們台灣的打壓對民主的這種破壞事實上是隨時而且不斷的在加大像這種的目的事實上最主要就是要製造一種寒產的效應所以就像委員說的他以前對政治人物現在他已經擴大到"},{"start":122.349,"end":137.743,"text":"事實上跟委員報告其實過去這幾年不只是對這種官員甚至他們也對臺商臺灣的企業界有哪一些在支持執政黨"},{"start":139.108,"end":139.368,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":161.986,"end":167.591,"text":"所以他這樣的做法其實就是要利用一種無形的恐懼因為過去他可能是用這種所謂的制裁台獨分子"},{"start":185.245,"end":204.393,"text":"但是他現在已經變成是懲戒也就是說懲毒這樣的一個方式變成是一個新的法律名詞而這樣的新法律名詞是把他的法律戰延伸到我們台灣境內你認同嗎?而這樣的方式是不是變成是說只要是一般民眾你就不能發聲如果你一旦發聲你離開台灣"},{"start":206.534,"end":216.121,"text":"他就可能對你採取法律行動來看下一張我們過去都知道銅鑼灣事件銅鑼灣事件的大股東他不是在香港被消失他其實是在到泰國去旅行的時候突然間就不見了而且如果根據我們過去所翻閱的資料當時的討論知道這位大股東他還不是說他就是中國香港而已喔"},{"start":231.272,"end":236.079,"text":"他事實上還有其他國家的國籍當時他是瑞典籍但是他依舊可以在泰國被消失現在國台辦直接發文說我要對這以上五個人跟他的家屬實施懲戒國台辦"},{"start":246.895,"end":256.444,"text":"這樣的一個做法,國安局怎麼看?而你們認為,現在是不是連一般民眾就只有留在台灣才安全?出去其他國家,會不會重演像銅鑼灣這樣的狀況,讓你變成是台灣真的香港化,先從沒有言論自由,從先從被噤聲開始?"},{"start":265.233,"end":294.029,"text":"各位委員報告我們當然沒辦法認同這樣的作為而且表示譴責我們從中共做這樣的這個恐嚇的動作之後國際媒體的關注度就知道不只我們沒辦法接受連國際民主國家民主陣營民主社會沒有人可以接受這種這種所謂的域外的常備管轄要對民主自由言論進行打壓的各種作為我覺得中共"},{"start":295.189,"end":319.63,"text":"雖然只是在對台灣加大恐嚇的力道但是他在國際上引起的負面效應反而會更大所以現在國際上面的訊息的正確性是非常重要的因為我們在這過去的八年不斷的強調台灣是台灣台灣不是中國的一部分所以當我們遇到事情的時候我們不能變成是說內部解決我們必須要靠"},{"start":320.35,"end":331.2,"text":"外面國際友邦一起來支撐台灣的自由、民主跟獨立但是我們來看下面就是現在他如果從官方延伸到民間的時候是有可能切斷國際社會跟我們的連結來看下一張"},{"start":334.298,"end":362.247,"text":"其實過去我一直在追包括這個副局長你也知道我問過有關於這種地方包圍中央這種所謂兩手策略一手拉一手打打的部分一拉是說他現在呈現是以通促容讓你覺得說兩岸一家親另外如果說現在民嘴不敢發聲民眾不敢發聲民眾不敢強調自己不是中國人不是支持中國共產黨"},{"start":363.487,"end":365.113,"text":"那麼這個打就會出現它的效果那麼台灣變香港的話你認為有沒有可能?"},{"start":371.861,"end":394.908,"text":"我想中共做這樣的恐嚇作為只是會加深國人的反彈而且國際上對中共的這種批評跟戒心反而會更大我覺得國人我們在台灣有享受很難得的言論自由跟民主的體制"},{"start":396.068,"end":411.129,"text":"當然有一個風險就是如果要進去鹿港澳地區這我們上次委員也關心過但是我現在更擔心的不是只有鹿港澳因為他可能延伸到跟他在外交上比較友好的國家"},{"start":411.73,"end":438.344,"text":"然後他就講說這個人他是台灣人因為台灣內部都說兩岸一家親所以他是中國人我就可以帶走為什麼我特別找出銅鑼灣的案例因為銅鑼灣的大股東他不是在香港被消失他是在泰國在一個我們認為相對安全的地方所以這個也是一個其實我認為國安局必須要注意的這會不會是另外"},{"start":439.224,"end":460.763,"text":"他們下一個中國對於台灣的威脅或是恫嚇其實所要施展的新的方向或新的樣態我們完全同意委員的看法事實上不久之前澳洲有一個機構才公布這幾年來就是中國人在海外不自願的被帶回中國去的大概有280幾位這些"},{"start":463.626,"end":466.667,"text":"所以現在最後一點時間不好意思主席我想要請我們的外交部的陳昌次"},{"start":496.172,"end":511.367,"text":"面對中國的這樣的打壓雖然五味鳴嘴可以一笑置之但是事實上我覺得這是一個嚴肅的事情那麼就像剛剛這個柯局長所說的那麼國際上對於這件事情他們的反應跟反饋現在外交部收到訊息是什麼"},{"start":512.428,"end":532.102,"text":"就如同剛剛委員所表達的關切以及科夫局長剛剛的說明全世界的民主國家沒有一個會容忍中國這樣的境外的這種所謂的常備管轄因為這不僅是所謂的強害各國的主權還有人民的自由當然這也是對於未來他自己的形象還有未來他"},{"start":532.822,"end":533.302,"text":"當然不會,外交部會全力而為。"}]}}}}