{"id":152605,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152605","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc3053832cb08fab5fe3fe2b63d20657b6c6e01ba30ddb4afe0fa7ebe0c7653a83505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:30:23 - 10:38:40","影片長度":"00:08:17","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：邀請僑務委員會、外交部、國家安全局報告「中共海外統戰工作對我僑務推展與邦交維持之影響及應處作為」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-21"},"duration":497,"end_time":"2024-05-16T10:38:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T10:30:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":312,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時30分）謝謝主席，有請僑委會副委員長，謝謝。"],["主席（馬委員文君）：請僑委會，謝謝。"],["呂副委員長元榮：委員早安。"],["沈委員伯洋：早。今天因為時間比較短，那我就直接開始。不知道副委員長有沒有看到昨天這個新聞，國臺辦表示臺灣有幾個名嘴罔顧中國發展進步的事實，要實施懲戒，不知道有沒有看到這個新聞？"],["呂副委員長元榮：是，我看到網路新聞。"],["沈委員伯洋：這個其實就是中國對於臺灣一些人的言論自由的一個打壓，這個是對臺灣，並不是針對我們海外的這一些同胞，但其實他們現在對於海外的這一些同胞能夠做的事情感覺是更多的。短短這十年之間，大家應該都知道有反間諜法、國安法、基本法等等之類的，就是中國的法律戰越來越擴張，最主要他們有幾條線路，當然第一個我們知道的是國安部相關的線路，剛剛剛好馬委員有提到一些，然後還有公安部的線路，也有解放軍區的線路，當然也有他們傳統統戰的線路，也有他們中宣部的線路，所以他們有越來越多線可以對我們的海外這些同胞來做打壓。","在這邊想要問一下副委員長，有沒有看到新的ABC的一個紀錄片，叫做「Four Corners」？這個大概是兩天前才出來的一個紀錄片，這個紀錄片其實我覺得對我們來講是一個很好的警示，為什麼？是因為它剛好把中國在澳洲所做的一些手法，算是一個非常完整地披露，因為時間的因素，我這邊很簡短地把它run過一遍。","最主要裡面有一個前中國的秘密特工Eric，他其實本來是逃離中國的，逃離中國了之後，結果被秘密警察找上門，給他兩個選項，他要麼坐牢，要麼就臥底，所以他後來就為中國公安部服務，因此他是一個非常典型的公安部線路。他目前看起來有做的事情其實非常地多，按照這個紀錄片，他當然有潛入跟西藏有關的一些集會，然後在簡報的右邊，他甚至裝扮成這樣的一個人員，他想要去滲透另外一名他想要接觸的人，那位人士已經過世了。另外這幾個我就不講他的這些內容，包括尹科，還有王立銘，還有最後的華涌，這幾個都是被監控的對象。這些監控的對象對我們來講，當然它最主要針對的就是海外的異議人士，可以看到他們有人是在網路上拍影片批評習近平，其實就跟剛剛我們臺灣的名嘴一樣嘛，對不對？他去批評中國，然後甚至還去施壓他的前女友墮胎，免得他因為這樣取得澳洲公民的身分。","所以這些都是在海外現在正在進行式，像王立銘是一個漫畫家，應該是蠻多人知道的，這一個是他們之前的錄音；這兩個也是我剛剛講到的，它國安部跟公安部的線路是稍微比較不一樣。我之前在質詢的過程當中有特別提到，就是國安部在這邊有另外一個是網路的線路，是跟公安部比較不同的，它會有更多的一些，可能去竊取他相關的一些資訊，可能不只是單純像公安部會做跟監而已，它還會去竊取他的社交網絡，然後可能會用駭客攻擊的方式來做，手法是比較不同的。","副委員長，你可能對這個已經有一些一定的掌握，但我們還是做了一個簡單的整理，就是他們從上級一直到特工，然後接觸的手法，目前有跟監、有攻擊，而非常重要的是引誘到東南亞，最近我們在講打詐，我們講柬埔寨等等之類的國家，其實是很常被討論的，引誘至東南亞這件事情，它甚至是用各式各樣的方式引誘到第三國再予以追捕。所以這邊我想問一下副委員長知不知道，就是這些是海外我們現在掌握的狀況，在紀錄片裡面已經很完整，這個你們應該也有掌握。","我想問一下，我們回到臺灣的案例，如果是臺灣的名嘴，它也想要來做這樣的一個針對，它也想要去威脅他，但看起來這邊沒有中國公安部的人，這邊目前也沒有中國國安部的人，照理說應該沒有啦！請問，如果在臺灣，它一樣要對所謂它講的異議分子或者所謂在捍衛人權者，它想要來做威脅，那它可能會怎麼做？"],["呂副委員長元榮：是，我跟委員報告，謝謝您剛剛所提出來寶貴的資訊，包括在通過國安法、基本法第二十三條的時候，僑委會有注意到中共這樣的一個手法，因此我們立即把相關的資訊，包含我們國內各機關所提供一個警示的規範，我們立即轉請海外的工作同仁要轉告所有海外的僑界人士，請他們要注意，我們提的是，如果到中港澳的時候要注意它有新的這樣的作法，包含手機的檢查等等，因此這個部分僑委會會配合國內相關單位他們提出來的警示，然後經由我們的通路，向海外僑界非常適切地來轉達。"],["沈委員伯洋：這個很好，就是我們對於我們僑界的同胞，譬如說他赴中港澳，他可能會受到這些威脅，這個應該是確認的事實，讓他們知道這個風險是好事，外交部也有在做相類似的行為，但現在很明顯的就是，它連在民主的國家、連在澳洲都可以做這樣的事情，它在美國也可以做這樣的事情，我們在後面有看到他們這種跨國鎮壓的方式其實是越來越多。這個是AI新的報告，他們甚至會去施壓，這個不是針對臺灣，它是針對中國，它一樣透過家人去施壓說不准去參加特定的活動，所以它在民主國家是做得到這件事情。很重要的一點是在於，因為不管是一些司法的協定，還是因為他們海外公安的擴張它做得到，然後加上它現在有實體的法令，但是我剛剛想問的事情，這可能有超出僑委會的範疇，就是如果它今天在臺灣要做一模一樣的事情，感覺會比較困難啦！因為我們剛剛看的這些所有的案例，在臺灣要發生是比較麻煩的。第一個，當然按照他們的法律，我們是在他們的一個管轄權的範圍之內，但他們沒有那個執法的單位，所以我覺得，當然我們透過這樣的一個機會，其實是要提醒國人，就是說的確我們在海外看到這些非常恐怖的事情，但是在臺灣照樣可以發生，而且發生的方式很簡單，它不用通過執法單位，它其實通過立法委員就可以做到了，也就是說，臺灣的立法委員現在跟中國「勾勾纏」的，去中國跟他見面的是越來越多，他只要做一件事情，譬如說，剛剛不是說這些人是不是在迫害兩岸關係？他們是不是在製造對中國不實的事實？所以我們立法院要來啟動調查，我們立法院啟動調查就可以把剛剛那些人全部叫來問話，問話之後，對他來講，當然沒有任何的威脅，所以對中國來講，在臺灣非常重要的一件事情是什麼呢？就是要通過藐視國會罪，你把一般人全部叫來，如果叫來的時候他說謊、叫來的時候不肯提供他的事實，或者他今天不好好回答，那就用藐視國會罪把他移送法辦就可以了，這就完全可以達到在臺灣噤聲的效果，這是中國現在、目前在這兩年以來在全世界都在做的事情，而在臺灣沒有很好做，就是因為我們不可能隨便讓他們的解放軍跟公安還有國安部的人進到我們的領土之內，但最麻煩的事情就是我們現在很有可能會通過相關的法案，讓我們剛剛在海外看到的事情一樣在臺灣發生，所以這就是我們現在面臨的困境。","當然我知道不管是外交部還是僑委會，針對海外的這些警告已經非常的辛苦，但我們現在要注意的是，我們現在的國人是連在內部都會遇到一樣的狀況，這種整包的資訊要怎麼跟國人傳達，我覺得也是重要的一件事情，因為時間的因素，我就大概先問到這邊，謝謝副委員長，謝謝。"],["呂副委員長元榮：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請陳冠廷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":38,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-21","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","王定宇","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","麥玉珍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會、外交部、國家安全局報告「中共海外統戰工作對我僑務推展與邦交維持之影響\n及應處作為」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134801_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"152605","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152605","tool":"pyannote","id":"152605-pyannote"},"job_id":"k0aaO08dv3kQowkp","queued_at":"2024-05-30 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\"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 493.047, \"end\": 493.107, \"score\": 0.663}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 493.107, \"end\": 493.227, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 493.227, \"end\": 493.327, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"概\", \"start\": 493.327, \"end\": 493.447, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 493.447, \"end\": 493.467, \"score\": 0.063}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 493.467, \"end\": 493.687, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"副\", \"start\": 493.687, \"end\": 493.747, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 493.747, \"end\": 493.767, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,069 --> 00:00:00,590\n喬委會副委員長\n\n2\n00:00:12,096 --> 00:00:31,050\n委員早安早那這個今天因為時間比較短那我就直接開始那這個不知道這個副委員長有沒有看到昨天這個新聞說國台辦表示說台灣有幾個名嘴說這一個網顧這個中國發展進步的事實要實施懲戒不知道有沒有看到這個新聞是我看到網路新聞對\n\n3\n00:00:32,472 --> 00:00:47,914\n這個其實就是一個中國對於台灣一些人的言論自由的打壓這個是對台灣並不是針對我們的海外的同胞但其實他們現在對於海外的這些同胞能夠做的事情感覺是更多的\n\n4\n00:00:50,357 --> 00:01:05,415\n這邊短短這10年之間大家應該都知道有反間諜法、國安法、基本法等等之類的就是中國這個法律戰越來越擴張那最主要他們有幾條線路當然第一個我們知道的是國安部相關的線路剛剛高航馬委員也有提到一些\n\n5\n00:01:06,016 --> 00:01:06,116\n副委員長\n\n6\n00:01:28,264 --> 00:01:52,322\n這個是大概兩天前才出來的一個紀錄片那這個紀錄片其實我覺得對我們來講是一個很好的警示為什麼是因為他剛好把中國在尤其在澳洲就是他所做的一些手法算是有一個非常完整的披露那我這邊很簡短的把它run過一遍因為時間的因素那最主要裡面有一個這個前中國的一個秘密特工Eric那他其實本來是逃離中國的\n\n7\n00:01:53,303 --> 00:02:08,913\n他逃離中國之後呢,結果被秘密警察找上門,給他兩個選項,你要麼坐牢,你要麼就臥底,所以他後來就為中國公安部服務,所以他是一個非常典型公安部的線路。那他目前看起來有做的事情其實非常的多,按照這個紀錄片,他這一個\n\n8\n00:02:11,054 --> 00:02:33,360\n他當然有潛入這一個跟西藏有關的一些集會然後在右邊他甚至裝扮成這樣的一個人員他想要去滲透另外一名他想要接觸的人那一位已經過世了所以這幾個這一個影科這個我就不講他的一些內容還有王立民還有最後這個華統就這幾個都是被他監控的對象\n\n9\n00:02:35,640 --> 00:02:59,407\n這個監控的對象對我們來講當然他最主要是針對要嘛就是海外的異議人士那可以看到他在這邊他在網路上拍影片批評習近平他其實就跟我們剛剛台灣的名嘴一樣對不對他去批評中國然後甚至還去施壓他的前女友墮胎免得他因為這樣取得澳洲公民的一個身分所以這個都是在海外現在正在進行式\n\n10\n00:03:01,668 --> 00:03:29,649\n我認為這個是一個漫畫家這個應該是蠻多人知道的那這個是他們之前的一個錄音那這兩個也是我剛剛講到的他國安部跟公安部的線路是稍微比較不一樣我之前在質詢的過程當中有特別提到就是國安部在這邊他有另外一個是網路的線路是跟公安部比較不同的他會有更多的一些可能去竊取他相關的一些資訊可能不只是單純像公安部會做跟監而已他還會去竊取他的社交網絡然後可能會用駭客攻擊的方式來做\n\n11\n00:03:30,610 --> 00:03:30,770\n沈伯洋\n\n12\n00:03:47,504 --> 00:04:02,377\n最近我們在講打詐其實我們講柬埔寨等等之類的國家其實是很常被討論引誘之東南亞這件事情它甚至是各式各樣的方式引誘到第三國在予以追捕所以這邊我想問一下副委員長不知道就是說\n\n13\n00:04:02,897 --> 00:04:19,153\n這些是海外我們現在掌握的狀況這個在紀錄片裡面已經很完整這個你們應該也有掌握那我想問一下我們回到我們台灣的案例就是如果是台灣的名嘴他也想要來做這樣的一個針對他也想要去威脅他但看起來這邊沒有中國公安部的人\n\n14\n00:04:24,595 --> 00:04:38,301\n請問他如果在台灣,他一樣要對所謂他講的異議分子,或者所謂在捍衛人權者,他想要來做威脅,那他可能會怎麼做呢?是,我跟委員報告,謝謝您剛剛所提出來的寶貴的資訊。\n\n15\n00:04:42,003 --> 00:04:55,558\n通過國安法通過基本法23條的時候僑委會有注意到中共這樣的一個手法因此我們立即把相關的資訊包含我們國內各機關所提供對\n\n16\n00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:24,653\n一個警示的一個規範我們立即轉請海外的工作同仁要轉告所有的海外的僑界的人士請他們要注意說當我們是提的時候如果到中港澳的時候要注意他有這個新的這樣的做法包含手機的檢查包含等等因此這個部分僑委會會配合國內相關單位他們提出來的警示然後像我們經由我們的通路向海外僑界非常適切的來轉達\n\n17\n00:05:25,914 --> 00:05:48,594\n這個很好就是說我們對於我們僑界的同胞他到比如說他赴中港澳他可能會受到這些威脅這個應該是確認的事實這個讓他們知道這個風險是好事外交部也有在做像類似的行為但現在很明顯的就是他連在民主的國家他連在澳洲都可以做這樣的事情他在美國也可以做這樣的事情我們在後面有看到他們這種跨國的這種鎮壓的方式其實是越來越多\n\n18\n00:05:49,855 --> 00:06:18,032\n這個是AI新的報告他們甚至會去施壓這個不是針對台灣,他是針對中國但他一樣透過家人去施壓說不准去參加特定的活動所以他的民主國家是做得到這件事情那這個很重要的一點是在於說因為不管是一些司法的協定還是因為他們海外公安的擴張他做得到然後加上他現在有實體的法令但我剛剛想問的事情這可能有當然是超出僑委會的範疇就是如果他今天是在台灣要做一模一樣的事情感覺會比較困難\n\n19\n00:06:19,253 --> 00:06:46,287\n因為我們剛剛看的這些所有的案例在台灣要發生是比較麻煩的第一個我們的當然按照他們的法律我們是在他們的一個管轄權的範圍之內但他們有那一個執法的單位所以這邊我覺得是當然我們透過這樣的一個機會其實是要提醒國人就是說的確我們在海外看到這些非常恐怖的事情但是在台灣照樣可以發生而且發生的方式很簡單他不用通過執法單位他其實通過立法委員就可以做到了\n\n20\n00:06:46,787 --> 00:07:06,604\n也就是說台灣的立法委員現在跟中國勾勾纏的去中國跟他見面的是越來越多那他只要做一件事情比如說今天剛剛不是說這些人是不是在迫害兩岸關係他們是不是在製造對中國不實的事實所以我們立法院要來啟動調查那麼立法院啟動調查就可以把剛剛那些人全部叫來問話\n\n21\n00:07:08,166 --> 00:07:23,824\n問話之後對他來講當然沒有任何的威脅所以對中國來講在台灣非常重要的一件事情是什麼呢就是要通過藐視國會罪你把一般人全部叫來如果叫來的時候他說謊他叫來的時候不肯提供他的事實或者他今天怎樣不好好回答\n\n22\n00:07:24,384 --> 00:07:52,509\n他就用藐視國會罪把你移送法辦就可以了這就完全可以達到在台灣晉升的效果這是中國現在目前在這兩年以來在全世界都在做的事情而在台灣沒有很好做就是因為我們不可能隨便讓他們的解放軍跟公安還有國安部的人進到我們的領土之內但最麻煩的事情就是我們現在很有可能會通過相關的法案讓我們剛剛在海外看到的事情一樣的在台灣發生\n\n23\n00:07:53,729 --> 00:08:13,767\n所以這就是我們現在面臨的困境當然我知道不管是外交部還是僑務委員會針對海外的這些警告已經非常的辛苦但我們現在要注意的是我們現在的國人是連在內部都會遇到一樣的狀況這種整包的資訊要怎麼跟國人傳達我覺得也是重要的一件事情那因為時間的因素我就大概先問到這邊謝謝副委員長謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n69\t590\t喬委會副委員長\n12096\t31050\t委員早安早那這個今天因為時間比較短那我就直接開始那這個不知道這個副委員長有沒有看到昨天這個新聞說國台辦表示說台灣有幾個名嘴說這一個網顧這個中國發展進步的事實要實施懲戒不知道有沒有看到這個新聞是我看到網路新聞對\n32472\t47914\t這個其實就是一個中國對於台灣一些人的言論自由的打壓這個是對台灣並不是針對我們的海外的同胞但其實他們現在對於海外的這些同胞能夠做的事情感覺是更多的\n50357\t65415\t這邊短短這10年之間大家應該都知道有反間諜法、國安法、基本法等等之類的就是中國這個法律戰越來越擴張那最主要他們有幾條線路當然第一個我們知道的是國安部相關的線路剛剛高航馬委員也有提到一些\n66016\t66116\t副委員長\n88264\t112322\t這個是大概兩天前才出來的一個紀錄片那這個紀錄片其實我覺得對我們來講是一個很好的警示為什麼是因為他剛好把中國在尤其在澳洲就是他所做的一些手法算是有一個非常完整的披露那我這邊很簡短的把它run過一遍因為時間的因素那最主要裡面有一個這個前中國的一個秘密特工Eric那他其實本來是逃離中國的\n113303\t128913\t他逃離中國之後呢,結果被秘密警察找上門,給他兩個選項,你要麼坐牢,你要麼就臥底,所以他後來就為中國公安部服務,所以他是一個非常典型公安部的線路。那他目前看起來有做的事情其實非常的多,按照這個紀錄片,他這一個\n131054\t153360\t他當然有潛入這一個跟西藏有關的一些集會然後在右邊他甚至裝扮成這樣的一個人員他想要去滲透另外一名他想要接觸的人那一位已經過世了所以這幾個這一個影科這個我就不講他的一些內容還有王立民還有最後這個華統就這幾個都是被他監控的對象\n155640\t179407\t這個監控的對象對我們來講當然他最主要是針對要嘛就是海外的異議人士那可以看到他在這邊他在網路上拍影片批評習近平他其實就跟我們剛剛台灣的名嘴一樣對不對他去批評中國然後甚至還去施壓他的前女友墮胎免得他因為這樣取得澳洲公民的一個身分所以這個都是在海外現在正在進行式\n181668\t209649\t我認為這個是一個漫畫家這個應該是蠻多人知道的那這個是他們之前的一個錄音那這兩個也是我剛剛講到的他國安部跟公安部的線路是稍微比較不一樣我之前在質詢的過程當中有特別提到就是國安部在這邊他有另外一個是網路的線路是跟公安部比較不同的他會有更多的一些可能去竊取他相關的一些資訊可能不只是單純像公安部會做跟監而已他還會去竊取他的社交網絡然後可能會用駭客攻擊的方式來做\n210610\t210770\t沈伯洋\n227504\t242377\t最近我們在講打詐其實我們講柬埔寨等等之類的國家其實是很常被討論引誘之東南亞這件事情它甚至是各式各樣的方式引誘到第三國在予以追捕所以這邊我想問一下副委員長不知道就是說\n242897\t259153\t這些是海外我們現在掌握的狀況這個在紀錄片裡面已經很完整這個你們應該也有掌握那我想問一下我們回到我們台灣的案例就是如果是台灣的名嘴他也想要來做這樣的一個針對他也想要去威脅他但看起來這邊沒有中國公安部的人\n264595\t278301\t請問他如果在台灣,他一樣要對所謂他講的異議分子,或者所謂在捍衛人權者,他想要來做威脅,那他可能會怎麼做呢?是,我跟委員報告,謝謝您剛剛所提出來的寶貴的資訊。\n282003\t295558\t通過國安法通過基本法23條的時候僑委會有注意到中共這樣的一個手法因此我們立即把相關的資訊包含我們國內各機關所提供對\n297240\t324653\t一個警示的一個規範我們立即轉請海外的工作同仁要轉告所有的海外的僑界的人士請他們要注意說當我們是提的時候如果到中港澳的時候要注意他有這個新的這樣的做法包含手機的檢查包含等等因此這個部分僑委會會配合國內相關單位他們提出來的警示然後像我們經由我們的通路向海外僑界非常適切的來轉達\n325914\t348594\t這個很好就是說我們對於我們僑界的同胞他到比如說他赴中港澳他可能會受到這些威脅這個應該是確認的事實這個讓他們知道這個風險是好事外交部也有在做像類似的行為但現在很明顯的就是他連在民主的國家他連在澳洲都可以做這樣的事情他在美國也可以做這樣的事情我們在後面有看到他們這種跨國的這種鎮壓的方式其實是越來越多\n349855\t378032\t這個是AI新的報告他們甚至會去施壓這個不是針對台灣,他是針對中國但他一樣透過家人去施壓說不准去參加特定的活動所以他的民主國家是做得到這件事情那這個很重要的一點是在於說因為不管是一些司法的協定還是因為他們海外公安的擴張他做得到然後加上他現在有實體的法令但我剛剛想問的事情這可能有當然是超出僑委會的範疇就是如果他今天是在台灣要做一模一樣的事情感覺會比較困難\n379253\t406287\t因為我們剛剛看的這些所有的案例在台灣要發生是比較麻煩的第一個我們的當然按照他們的法律我們是在他們的一個管轄權的範圍之內但他們有那一個執法的單位所以這邊我覺得是當然我們透過這樣的一個機會其實是要提醒國人就是說的確我們在海外看到這些非常恐怖的事情但是在台灣照樣可以發生而且發生的方式很簡單他不用通過執法單位他其實通過立法委員就可以做到了\n406787\t426604\t也就是說台灣的立法委員現在跟中國勾勾纏的去中國跟他見面的是越來越多那他只要做一件事情比如說今天剛剛不是說這些人是不是在迫害兩岸關係他們是不是在製造對中國不實的事實所以我們立法院要來啟動調查那麼立法院啟動調查就可以把剛剛那些人全部叫來問話\n428166\t443824\t問話之後對他來講當然沒有任何的威脅所以對中國來講在台灣非常重要的一件事情是什麼呢就是要通過藐視國會罪你把一般人全部叫來如果叫來的時候他說謊他叫來的時候不肯提供他的事實或者他今天怎樣不好好回答\n444384\t472509\t他就用藐視國會罪把你移送法辦就可以了這就完全可以達到在台灣晉升的效果這是中國現在目前在這兩年以來在全世界都在做的事情而在台灣沒有很好做就是因為我們不可能隨便讓他們的解放軍跟公安還有國安部的人進到我們的領土之內但最麻煩的事情就是我們現在很有可能會通過相關的法案讓我們剛剛在海外看到的事情一樣的在台灣發生\n473729\t493767\t所以這就是我們現在面臨的困境當然我知道不管是外交部還是僑務委員會針對海外的這些警告已經非常的辛苦但我們現在要注意的是我們現在的國人是連在內部都會遇到一樣的狀況這種整包的資訊要怎麼跟國人傳達我覺得也是重要的一件事情那因為時間的因素我就大概先問到這邊謝謝副委員長謝謝\n","txt":"喬委會副委員長\n委員早安早那這個今天因為時間比較短那我就直接開始那這個不知道這個副委員長有沒有看到昨天這個新聞說國台辦表示說台灣有幾個名嘴說這一個網顧這個中國發展進步的事實要實施懲戒不知道有沒有看到這個新聞是我看到網路新聞對\n這個其實就是一個中國對於台灣一些人的言論自由的打壓這個是對台灣並不是針對我們的海外的同胞但其實他們現在對於海外的這些同胞能夠做的事情感覺是更多的\n這邊短短這10年之間大家應該都知道有反間諜法、國安法、基本法等等之類的就是中國這個法律戰越來越擴張那最主要他們有幾條線路當然第一個我們知道的是國安部相關的線路剛剛高航馬委員也有提到一些\n副委員長\n這個是大概兩天前才出來的一個紀錄片那這個紀錄片其實我覺得對我們來講是一個很好的警示為什麼是因為他剛好把中國在尤其在澳洲就是他所做的一些手法算是有一個非常完整的披露那我這邊很簡短的把它run過一遍因為時間的因素那最主要裡面有一個這個前中國的一個秘密特工Eric那他其實本來是逃離中國的\n他逃離中國之後呢,結果被秘密警察找上門,給他兩個選項,你要麼坐牢,你要麼就臥底,所以他後來就為中國公安部服務,所以他是一個非常典型公安部的線路。那他目前看起來有做的事情其實非常的多,按照這個紀錄片,他這一個\n他當然有潛入這一個跟西藏有關的一些集會然後在右邊他甚至裝扮成這樣的一個人員他想要去滲透另外一名他想要接觸的人那一位已經過世了所以這幾個這一個影科這個我就不講他的一些內容還有王立民還有最後這個華統就這幾個都是被他監控的對象\n這個監控的對象對我們來講當然他最主要是針對要嘛就是海外的異議人士那可以看到他在這邊他在網路上拍影片批評習近平他其實就跟我們剛剛台灣的名嘴一樣對不對他去批評中國然後甚至還去施壓他的前女友墮胎免得他因為這樣取得澳洲公民的一個身分所以這個都是在海外現在正在進行式\n我認為這個是一個漫畫家這個應該是蠻多人知道的那這個是他們之前的一個錄音那這兩個也是我剛剛講到的他國安部跟公安部的線路是稍微比較不一樣我之前在質詢的過程當中有特別提到就是國安部在這邊他有另外一個是網路的線路是跟公安部比較不同的他會有更多的一些可能去竊取他相關的一些資訊可能不只是單純像公安部會做跟監而已他還會去竊取他的社交網絡然後可能會用駭客攻擊的方式來做\n沈伯洋\n最近我們在講打詐其實我們講柬埔寨等等之類的國家其實是很常被討論引誘之東南亞這件事情它甚至是各式各樣的方式引誘到第三國在予以追捕所以這邊我想問一下副委員長不知道就是說\n這些是海外我們現在掌握的狀況這個在紀錄片裡面已經很完整這個你們應該也有掌握那我想問一下我們回到我們台灣的案例就是如果是台灣的名嘴他也想要來做這樣的一個針對他也想要去威脅他但看起來這邊沒有中國公安部的人\n請問他如果在台灣,他一樣要對所謂他講的異議分子,或者所謂在捍衛人權者,他想要來做威脅,那他可能會怎麼做呢?是,我跟委員報告,謝謝您剛剛所提出來的寶貴的資訊。\n通過國安法通過基本法23條的時候僑委會有注意到中共這樣的一個手法因此我們立即把相關的資訊包含我們國內各機關所提供對\n一個警示的一個規範我們立即轉請海外的工作同仁要轉告所有的海外的僑界的人士請他們要注意說當我們是提的時候如果到中港澳的時候要注意他有這個新的這樣的做法包含手機的檢查包含等等因此這個部分僑委會會配合國內相關單位他們提出來的警示然後像我們經由我們的通路向海外僑界非常適切的來轉達\n這個很好就是說我們對於我們僑界的同胞他到比如說他赴中港澳他可能會受到這些威脅這個應該是確認的事實這個讓他們知道這個風險是好事外交部也有在做像類似的行為但現在很明顯的就是他連在民主的國家他連在澳洲都可以做這樣的事情他在美國也可以做這樣的事情我們在後面有看到他們這種跨國的這種鎮壓的方式其實是越來越多\n這個是AI新的報告他們甚至會去施壓這個不是針對台灣,他是針對中國但他一樣透過家人去施壓說不准去參加特定的活動所以他的民主國家是做得到這件事情那這個很重要的一點是在於說因為不管是一些司法的協定還是因為他們海外公安的擴張他做得到然後加上他現在有實體的法令但我剛剛想問的事情這可能有當然是超出僑委會的範疇就是如果他今天是在台灣要做一模一樣的事情感覺會比較困難\n因為我們剛剛看的這些所有的案例在台灣要發生是比較麻煩的第一個我們的當然按照他們的法律我們是在他們的一個管轄權的範圍之內但他們有那一個執法的單位所以這邊我覺得是當然我們透過這樣的一個機會其實是要提醒國人就是說的確我們在海外看到這些非常恐怖的事情但是在台灣照樣可以發生而且發生的方式很簡單他不用通過執法單位他其實通過立法委員就可以做到了\n也就是說台灣的立法委員現在跟中國勾勾纏的去中國跟他見面的是越來越多那他只要做一件事情比如說今天剛剛不是說這些人是不是在迫害兩岸關係他們是不是在製造對中國不實的事實所以我們立法院要來啟動調查那麼立法院啟動調查就可以把剛剛那些人全部叫來問話\n問話之後對他來講當然沒有任何的威脅所以對中國來講在台灣非常重要的一件事情是什麼呢就是要通過藐視國會罪你把一般人全部叫來如果叫來的時候他說謊他叫來的時候不肯提供他的事實或者他今天怎樣不好好回答\n他就用藐視國會罪把你移送法辦就可以了這就完全可以達到在台灣晉升的效果這是中國現在目前在這兩年以來在全世界都在做的事情而在台灣沒有很好做就是因為我們不可能隨便讓他們的解放軍跟公安還有國安部的人進到我們的領土之內但最麻煩的事情就是我們現在很有可能會通過相關的法案讓我們剛剛在海外看到的事情一樣的在台灣發生\n所以這就是我們現在面臨的困境當然我知道不管是外交部還是僑務委員會針對海外的這些警告已經非常的辛苦但我們現在要注意的是我們現在的國人是連在內部都會遇到一樣的狀況這種整包的資訊要怎麼跟國人傳達我覺得也是重要的一件事情那因為時間的因素我就大概先問到這邊謝謝副委員長謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.069 --> 00:00.590\n喬委會副委員長\n\n00:12.096 --> 00:31.050\n委員早安早那這個今天因為時間比較短那我就直接開始那這個不知道這個副委員長有沒有看到昨天這個新聞說國台辦表示說台灣有幾個名嘴說這一個網顧這個中國發展進步的事實要實施懲戒不知道有沒有看到這個新聞是我看到網路新聞對\n\n00:32.472 --> 00:47.914\n這個其實就是一個中國對於台灣一些人的言論自由的打壓這個是對台灣並不是針對我們的海外的同胞但其實他們現在對於海外的這些同胞能夠做的事情感覺是更多的\n\n00:50.357 --> 01:05.415\n這邊短短這10年之間大家應該都知道有反間諜法、國安法、基本法等等之類的就是中國這個法律戰越來越擴張那最主要他們有幾條線路當然第一個我們知道的是國安部相關的線路剛剛高航馬委員也有提到一些\n\n01:06.016 --> 01:06.116\n副委員長\n\n01:28.264 --> 01:52.322\n這個是大概兩天前才出來的一個紀錄片那這個紀錄片其實我覺得對我們來講是一個很好的警示為什麼是因為他剛好把中國在尤其在澳洲就是他所做的一些手法算是有一個非常完整的披露那我這邊很簡短的把它run過一遍因為時間的因素那最主要裡面有一個這個前中國的一個秘密特工Eric那他其實本來是逃離中國的\n\n01:53.303 --> 02:08.913\n他逃離中國之後呢,結果被秘密警察找上門,給他兩個選項,你要麼坐牢,你要麼就臥底,所以他後來就為中國公安部服務,所以他是一個非常典型公安部的線路。那他目前看起來有做的事情其實非常的多,按照這個紀錄片,他這一個\n\n02:11.054 --> 02:33.360\n他當然有潛入這一個跟西藏有關的一些集會然後在右邊他甚至裝扮成這樣的一個人員他想要去滲透另外一名他想要接觸的人那一位已經過世了所以這幾個這一個影科這個我就不講他的一些內容還有王立民還有最後這個華統就這幾個都是被他監控的對象\n\n02:35.640 --> 02:59.407\n這個監控的對象對我們來講當然他最主要是針對要嘛就是海外的異議人士那可以看到他在這邊他在網路上拍影片批評習近平他其實就跟我們剛剛台灣的名嘴一樣對不對他去批評中國然後甚至還去施壓他的前女友墮胎免得他因為這樣取得澳洲公民的一個身分所以這個都是在海外現在正在進行式\n\n03:01.668 --> 03:29.649\n我認為這個是一個漫畫家這個應該是蠻多人知道的那這個是他們之前的一個錄音那這兩個也是我剛剛講到的他國安部跟公安部的線路是稍微比較不一樣我之前在質詢的過程當中有特別提到就是國安部在這邊他有另外一個是網路的線路是跟公安部比較不同的他會有更多的一些可能去竊取他相關的一些資訊可能不只是單純像公安部會做跟監而已他還會去竊取他的社交網絡然後可能會用駭客攻擊的方式來做\n\n03:30.610 --> 03:30.770\n沈伯洋\n\n03:47.504 --> 04:02.377\n最近我們在講打詐其實我們講柬埔寨等等之類的國家其實是很常被討論引誘之東南亞這件事情它甚至是各式各樣的方式引誘到第三國在予以追捕所以這邊我想問一下副委員長不知道就是說\n\n04:02.897 --> 04:19.153\n這些是海外我們現在掌握的狀況這個在紀錄片裡面已經很完整這個你們應該也有掌握那我想問一下我們回到我們台灣的案例就是如果是台灣的名嘴他也想要來做這樣的一個針對他也想要去威脅他但看起來這邊沒有中國公安部的人\n\n04:24.595 --> 04:38.301\n請問他如果在台灣,他一樣要對所謂他講的異議分子,或者所謂在捍衛人權者,他想要來做威脅,那他可能會怎麼做呢?是,我跟委員報告,謝謝您剛剛所提出來的寶貴的資訊。\n\n04:42.003 --> 04:55.558\n通過國安法通過基本法23條的時候僑委會有注意到中共這樣的一個手法因此我們立即把相關的資訊包含我們國內各機關所提供對\n\n04:57.240 --> 05:24.653\n一個警示的一個規範我們立即轉請海外的工作同仁要轉告所有的海外的僑界的人士請他們要注意說當我們是提的時候如果到中港澳的時候要注意他有這個新的這樣的做法包含手機的檢查包含等等因此這個部分僑委會會配合國內相關單位他們提出來的警示然後像我們經由我們的通路向海外僑界非常適切的來轉達\n\n05:25.914 --> 05:48.594\n這個很好就是說我們對於我們僑界的同胞他到比如說他赴中港澳他可能會受到這些威脅這個應該是確認的事實這個讓他們知道這個風險是好事外交部也有在做像類似的行為但現在很明顯的就是他連在民主的國家他連在澳洲都可以做這樣的事情他在美國也可以做這樣的事情我們在後面有看到他們這種跨國的這種鎮壓的方式其實是越來越多\n\n05:49.855 --> 06:18.032\n這個是AI新的報告他們甚至會去施壓這個不是針對台灣,他是針對中國但他一樣透過家人去施壓說不准去參加特定的活動所以他的民主國家是做得到這件事情那這個很重要的一點是在於說因為不管是一些司法的協定還是因為他們海外公安的擴張他做得到然後加上他現在有實體的法令但我剛剛想問的事情這可能有當然是超出僑委會的範疇就是如果他今天是在台灣要做一模一樣的事情感覺會比較困難\n\n06:19.253 --> 06:46.287\n因為我們剛剛看的這些所有的案例在台灣要發生是比較麻煩的第一個我們的當然按照他們的法律我們是在他們的一個管轄權的範圍之內但他們有那一個執法的單位所以這邊我覺得是當然我們透過這樣的一個機會其實是要提醒國人就是說的確我們在海外看到這些非常恐怖的事情但是在台灣照樣可以發生而且發生的方式很簡單他不用通過執法單位他其實通過立法委員就可以做到了\n\n06:46.787 --> 07:06.604\n也就是說台灣的立法委員現在跟中國勾勾纏的去中國跟他見面的是越來越多那他只要做一件事情比如說今天剛剛不是說這些人是不是在迫害兩岸關係他們是不是在製造對中國不實的事實所以我們立法院要來啟動調查那麼立法院啟動調查就可以把剛剛那些人全部叫來問話\n\n07:08.166 --> 07:23.824\n問話之後對他來講當然沒有任何的威脅所以對中國來講在台灣非常重要的一件事情是什麼呢就是要通過藐視國會罪你把一般人全部叫來如果叫來的時候他說謊他叫來的時候不肯提供他的事實或者他今天怎樣不好好回答\n\n07:24.384 --> 07:52.509\n他就用藐視國會罪把你移送法辦就可以了這就完全可以達到在台灣晉升的效果這是中國現在目前在這兩年以來在全世界都在做的事情而在台灣沒有很好做就是因為我們不可能隨便讓他們的解放軍跟公安還有國安部的人進到我們的領土之內但最麻煩的事情就是我們現在很有可能會通過相關的法案讓我們剛剛在海外看到的事情一樣的在台灣發生\n\n07:53.729 --> 08:13.767\n所以這就是我們現在面臨的困境當然我知道不管是外交部還是僑務委員會針對海外的這些警告已經非常的辛苦但我們現在要注意的是我們現在的國人是連在內部都會遇到一樣的狀況這種整包的資訊要怎麼跟國人傳達我覺得也是重要的一件事情那因為時間的因素我就大概先問到這邊謝謝副委員長謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.069,"end":0.59,"text":"喬委會副委員長"},{"start":12.096,"end":31.05,"text":"委員早安早那這個今天因為時間比較短那我就直接開始那這個不知道這個副委員長有沒有看到昨天這個新聞說國台辦表示說台灣有幾個名嘴說這一個網顧這個中國發展進步的事實要實施懲戒不知道有沒有看到這個新聞是我看到網路新聞對"},{"start":32.472,"end":47.914,"text":"這個其實就是一個中國對於台灣一些人的言論自由的打壓這個是對台灣並不是針對我們的海外的同胞但其實他們現在對於海外的這些同胞能夠做的事情感覺是更多的"},{"start":50.357,"end":65.415,"text":"這邊短短這10年之間大家應該都知道有反間諜法、國安法、基本法等等之類的就是中國這個法律戰越來越擴張那最主要他們有幾條線路當然第一個我們知道的是國安部相關的線路剛剛高航馬委員也有提到一些"},{"start":66.016,"end":66.116,"text":"副委員長"},{"start":88.264,"end":112.322,"text":"這個是大概兩天前才出來的一個紀錄片那這個紀錄片其實我覺得對我們來講是一個很好的警示為什麼是因為他剛好把中國在尤其在澳洲就是他所做的一些手法算是有一個非常完整的披露那我這邊很簡短的把它run過一遍因為時間的因素那最主要裡面有一個這個前中國的一個秘密特工Eric那他其實本來是逃離中國的"},{"start":113.303,"end":128.913,"text":"他逃離中國之後呢,結果被秘密警察找上門,給他兩個選項,你要麼坐牢,你要麼就臥底,所以他後來就為中國公安部服務,所以他是一個非常典型公安部的線路。那他目前看起來有做的事情其實非常的多,按照這個紀錄片,他這一個"},{"start":131.054,"end":153.36,"text":"他當然有潛入這一個跟西藏有關的一些集會然後在右邊他甚至裝扮成這樣的一個人員他想要去滲透另外一名他想要接觸的人那一位已經過世了所以這幾個這一個影科這個我就不講他的一些內容還有王立民還有最後這個華統就這幾個都是被他監控的對象"},{"start":155.64,"end":179.407,"text":"這個監控的對象對我們來講當然他最主要是針對要嘛就是海外的異議人士那可以看到他在這邊他在網路上拍影片批評習近平他其實就跟我們剛剛台灣的名嘴一樣對不對他去批評中國然後甚至還去施壓他的前女友墮胎免得他因為這樣取得澳洲公民的一個身分所以這個都是在海外現在正在進行式"},{"start":181.668,"end":209.649,"text":"我認為這個是一個漫畫家這個應該是蠻多人知道的那這個是他們之前的一個錄音那這兩個也是我剛剛講到的他國安部跟公安部的線路是稍微比較不一樣我之前在質詢的過程當中有特別提到就是國安部在這邊他有另外一個是網路的線路是跟公安部比較不同的他會有更多的一些可能去竊取他相關的一些資訊可能不只是單純像公安部會做跟監而已他還會去竊取他的社交網絡然後可能會用駭客攻擊的方式來做"},{"start":210.61,"end":210.77,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":227.504,"end":242.377,"text":"最近我們在講打詐其實我們講柬埔寨等等之類的國家其實是很常被討論引誘之東南亞這件事情它甚至是各式各樣的方式引誘到第三國在予以追捕所以這邊我想問一下副委員長不知道就是說"},{"start":242.897,"end":259.153,"text":"這些是海外我們現在掌握的狀況這個在紀錄片裡面已經很完整這個你們應該也有掌握那我想問一下我們回到我們台灣的案例就是如果是台灣的名嘴他也想要來做這樣的一個針對他也想要去威脅他但看起來這邊沒有中國公安部的人"},{"start":264.595,"end":278.301,"text":"請問他如果在台灣,他一樣要對所謂他講的異議分子,或者所謂在捍衛人權者,他想要來做威脅,那他可能會怎麼做呢?是,我跟委員報告,謝謝您剛剛所提出來的寶貴的資訊。"},{"start":282.003,"end":295.558,"text":"通過國安法通過基本法23條的時候僑委會有注意到中共這樣的一個手法因此我們立即把相關的資訊包含我們國內各機關所提供對"},{"start":297.24,"end":324.653,"text":"一個警示的一個規範我們立即轉請海外的工作同仁要轉告所有的海外的僑界的人士請他們要注意說當我們是提的時候如果到中港澳的時候要注意他有這個新的這樣的做法包含手機的檢查包含等等因此這個部分僑委會會配合國內相關單位他們提出來的警示然後像我們經由我們的通路向海外僑界非常適切的來轉達"},{"start":325.914,"end":348.594,"text":"這個很好就是說我們對於我們僑界的同胞他到比如說他赴中港澳他可能會受到這些威脅這個應該是確認的事實這個讓他們知道這個風險是好事外交部也有在做像類似的行為但現在很明顯的就是他連在民主的國家他連在澳洲都可以做這樣的事情他在美國也可以做這樣的事情我們在後面有看到他們這種跨國的這種鎮壓的方式其實是越來越多"},{"start":349.855,"end":378.032,"text":"這個是AI新的報告他們甚至會去施壓這個不是針對台灣,他是針對中國但他一樣透過家人去施壓說不准去參加特定的活動所以他的民主國家是做得到這件事情那這個很重要的一點是在於說因為不管是一些司法的協定還是因為他們海外公安的擴張他做得到然後加上他現在有實體的法令但我剛剛想問的事情這可能有當然是超出僑委會的範疇就是如果他今天是在台灣要做一模一樣的事情感覺會比較困難"},{"start":379.253,"end":406.287,"text":"因為我們剛剛看的這些所有的案例在台灣要發生是比較麻煩的第一個我們的當然按照他們的法律我們是在他們的一個管轄權的範圍之內但他們有那一個執法的單位所以這邊我覺得是當然我們透過這樣的一個機會其實是要提醒國人就是說的確我們在海外看到這些非常恐怖的事情但是在台灣照樣可以發生而且發生的方式很簡單他不用通過執法單位他其實通過立法委員就可以做到了"},{"start":406.787,"end":426.604,"text":"也就是說台灣的立法委員現在跟中國勾勾纏的去中國跟他見面的是越來越多那他只要做一件事情比如說今天剛剛不是說這些人是不是在迫害兩岸關係他們是不是在製造對中國不實的事實所以我們立法院要來啟動調查那麼立法院啟動調查就可以把剛剛那些人全部叫來問話"},{"start":428.166,"end":443.824,"text":"問話之後對他來講當然沒有任何的威脅所以對中國來講在台灣非常重要的一件事情是什麼呢就是要通過藐視國會罪你把一般人全部叫來如果叫來的時候他說謊他叫來的時候不肯提供他的事實或者他今天怎樣不好好回答"},{"start":444.384,"end":472.509,"text":"他就用藐視國會罪把你移送法辦就可以了這就完全可以達到在台灣晉升的效果這是中國現在目前在這兩年以來在全世界都在做的事情而在台灣沒有很好做就是因為我們不可能隨便讓他們的解放軍跟公安還有國安部的人進到我們的領土之內但最麻煩的事情就是我們現在很有可能會通過相關的法案讓我們剛剛在海外看到的事情一樣的在台灣發生"},{"start":473.729,"end":493.767,"text":"所以這就是我們現在面臨的困境當然我知道不管是外交部還是僑務委員會針對海外的這些警告已經非常的辛苦但我們現在要注意的是我們現在的國人是連在內部都會遇到一樣的狀況這種整包的資訊要怎麼跟國人傳達我覺得也是重要的一件事情那因為時間的因素我就大概先問到這邊謝謝副委員長謝謝"}]}}}}