{"id":152612,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152612","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc308d45a713eaa8598fc1296c2fd5de7bd8e01ba30ddb4afe0fd7f6994ea375bf835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:57:19 - 10:09:49","影片長度":"00:12:30","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-23"},"duration":750,"end_time":"2024-05-16T10:09:49+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T09:57:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":514,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時57分）麻煩有請次長跟署長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：次長。"],["黃次長謀信：是，委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：我不知道怎麼形容再度看到你的心情，我如果說很遺憾又再看到你，你可能會誤會，但我不是那個意思啦。那我也可以理解，現在部長好像在行政院參與總辭的過程嘛。"],["黃次長謀信：沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：好，那我也不會強求。","我想先請教一下，兩位都會留任嗎？對兩位沒有不敬的意思！因為我在想說，我們今天要進行法學的探討還是政策的探討？"],["黃次長謀信：因為事務官留任是由長官決定。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係。","因為裡面有很多政策性的問題，其實歸咎於兩位我覺得不公平、真的不公平！我知道廉政署的同仁很認真、法務部的同仁也很認真，版本送出去，卡在行政院、在行政院睡覺，我的理解沒錯吧？"],["黃次長謀信：我們已經送行政院沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：但有一些在法律上面牽涉到制度性的基本問題，我覺得還是要談清楚啦。有關我們的聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告，寫的只有公部門的吹哨者保護還是包括私部門？"],["黃次長謀信：這部分是不是請……"],["莊署長榮松：跟委員說明，聯合國反貪腐公約只要求我們要儘速推動揭弊者保護法，它並沒有……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，我剛說：你們寫的聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告只有公部門，還是包括私部門的吹哨者保護？"],["莊署長榮松：這部分就立法體例的話，並沒有說是哪一種部門，但是它只要求……"],["黃委員國昌：我的老天啊！不好意思，我很想客氣地講，來，我唸給你聽，第二次聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告第106頁：「我國已研訂公私合併版《揭弊者保護法》草案，以內部人員為限，參酌外國立法例，如英國、日本、歐盟之揭弊保護制度，均針對內部人員提供保護，以符合國際立法規範。」這是不是我們反貪腐公約第二次國家報告的內容？這種白紙黑字的東西就不要爭辯了嘛，浪費大家的時間啦，真的是浪費大家的時間啦！我們都是念法律的人，我把國家報告拿出來，白紙黑字就寫在這裡，你如果不知道就是對你自己的業務不熟嘛，我們政府花這麼多錢寫這個聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告是在作秀嗎？在當門面嗎？有當一回事嗎？最重要的主管官員不知道裡面寫了什麼，你們要不要回去把第二次聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告下架？一般人也不會看，因為連我們自己主責的官員都不知道寫什麼嘛！","我們在第二次國家報告裡面，還是公私部門都要有吹哨者保護法，剛剛次長說關鍵的轉折在2023年嘛，對吧？2023年制度調整大轉彎，我剛剛聽次長講，應該沒有錯嘛？"],["黃次長謀信：剛剛是署長報告。"],["黃委員國昌：請署長。"],["莊署長榮松：對，是在20……"],["黃委員國昌：你們2023年接到誰的陳情？接到誰的陳情？"],["莊署長榮松：這部分也不是說接到誰的陳情啦……"],["黃委員國昌：那奇怪了！沒有人陳情的話，那你們轉彎什麼？"],["莊署長榮松：主要是那時候有一個轉折的緣由啦，當初我們在推動的時候，行政院就有成立一個推動的專案，後來再經過企業的……"],["黃委員國昌：推動專案的召集人是誰？"],["莊署長榮松：就行政院。"],["黃委員國昌：行政院？"],["莊署長榮松：對。"],["黃委員國昌：行政院是一個機關，它不會召集啊，我說實際負責的人是誰？"],["莊署長榮松：院長。"],["黃委員國昌：院長？所以是院長交辦私法人排除在外，是嗎？"],["莊署長榮松：不是！那時候跟企業界接觸之後，企業界對於這個法的推動也有一些疑慮啦……"],["黃委員國昌：所以我就說誰表達了反對意見嘛？"],["莊署長榮松：那是綜合！"],["黃委員國昌：有大金控去遊說嗎？有沒有大金控去遊說？說清楚喔！有沒有金控去遊說？有沒有金控的老闆去遊說？講清楚！有還是沒有？"],["莊署長榮松：這部分的業務我沒有接觸到，沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：就你沒有嘛！關於上面的人有沒有，你不知道嘛，對吧？"],["莊署長榮松：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：所以是哪些大老闆去跟我們行政院的大官講，私部門的吹哨者保護期期以為不可啊？不要拿中小企業當藉口啦，今天把中小企業排除，你看那些金控會不會有意見？最有意見的就是他們啦！花幾千萬搞政治遊說，以為臺灣人民是笨蛋喔？在這些金控介入以前，行政院的立場從來沒改變過，大金控介入了以後，膝蓋就軟了。沒關係，我們看新的院長、看新的部長，他們的態度是什麼？那一天我質詢陳建仁的時候，他說他要再研議，我心裡就有數了，交不出來。果不其然，今天總辭嘛，今天行政院院版到目前為止還沒有提出來，這個客觀的事實我沒有說錯吧，對吧？","對嘛，那等於是我們過去所有的工作全部一切歸零，新的院長、新的部長從頭再來。沒有人知道新的院長怎麼想，也沒有人知道新的部長怎麼想，一切從頭再來。為什麼人民會憤怒？這就是人民為什麼會憤怒。","來，我講具體的例子，我回到民間社會以後，吹哨者跑來找我們台灣公益揭弊暨吹哨者保護協會，說他揭發國防部的官員胡搞瞎搞違反軍紀，他揭發了以後，結果他的身分被洩露了，告訴被檢舉的人誰檢舉你的，還讓被檢舉人去找第三人去恐嚇他，說「你很厲害，敢吹哨」，結果呢？吹哨者會怕，我們不會怕，我們去告發。我告發完了以後，橋頭地檢署給這個洩露吹哨者身分的人緩起訴處分。","來，我不談個案，從刑事司法政策上面，這是我們現在的廉政署所樂見的結果嗎？洩漏吹哨者身分，我們現在用什麼法訴追？請教署長，就現行的法規範體系。"],["莊署長榮松：這個情形我們當然不樂見，目前如果洩密的話，我們這邊會用刑法的洩密罪來追訴。"],["黃委員國昌：是洩密罪還是違反個人資料保護法？"],["莊署長榮松：看它的犯罪態樣。"],["黃委員國昌：我就把是誰抓耙子的，我就把你的所有個資都跟被被檢舉的人講。"],["莊署長榮松：如果有牽涉到個資的話，也有可能會牽涉到個資法。"],["黃委員國昌：我把你的個人資訊告訴別人，這一定牽涉到個資法嘛，但我為什麼舉這個案子給兩位看，這個就是我們在司法實際的實踐上，為什麼有委員要提案，洩漏吹哨者的身分所應該有的刑事處罰，在吹哨者保護法要定。它的性質跟一般洩漏個資是不一樣的，署長同不同意？"],["莊署長榮松：這部分可以考量。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛，實際的實踐呢？人家已經都把我的資料洩漏出去，被檢舉的人已經知道是誰檢舉他，檢舉人從此以後要在一個非常敵意的工作環境當中，不知道那個被檢舉的人什麼時候要在背後捅他一刀，結果洩漏人家個資的人，我們出面告發，我們的檢察官，這還不到法院，我們的檢察官自己決定給他緩起訴處分。","政府、國家、法律賦予檢察官這樣的權限，檢察官在行使這個權限的時候要有自覺，這種權力的行使，它不僅僅在形塑我國的刑事司法政策，它也在考驗人民對檢察官的信心。這是檢察官權力的行使，我們尊重，但我必須要大聲的講我不同意。我必須要大聲的講，我不同意。如果我們的檢察官是這樣子在寬待洩漏吹哨者資訊的人的話，我們的政府要如何告訴這個社會「勇敢出來吹哨，我們的政府會保護你，我們的國家會保護你，我們的制度會保護你」？因為根本不會，完全是謊言。","NCC洩漏吹哨者個資，也有人檢舉了，法務部開始偵辦了沒有？法務部開始偵辦了沒有？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這部分應該臺北地檢署有分案處理。"],["黃委員國昌：確定有偵辦？"],["黃次長謀信：應該有。"],["黃委員國昌：我只要確定有立案偵辦就好了。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，確不確定這件事，我覺得他知有犯罪情事，理論上就應該要自動去偵辦。"],["黃委員國昌：然後第二個，這更扯了，本院委員徐巧芯，我不知道是不是他檢舉的，他說是他檢舉的，跟我們的NCC檢舉，結果他的email被公開，結果人家追查說是徐巧芯，結果被檢舉的人很囂張，直接嗆他。他們兩個要對嗆我沒意見，兩個要對嗆我沒意見，我care的事情是，我們的政府說要保護吹哨者，我們的NCC一而再、再而三洩漏檢舉人的個資，該不該辦？該不該辦？來，請次長。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，檢察官因為告訴、告發或其他情事，甚至今天委員在委員會裡面質詢，他知有犯罪，有管轄權的檢察官就應該要主動偵辦。"],["黃委員國昌：他應該要主動偵辦嘛？"],["黃次長謀信：訴訟法上有規定，他就是應該……"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們就看下去。我再說一次，這個名嘴、這個綠營的側翼跟徐巧芯委員兩個要怎麼互罵，我沒意見，政治立場不同，但我care的是什麼──我們的NCC在幹什麼？一而再、再而三洩漏吹哨人的資料，洩漏檢舉人的個資，那等於是昭告天下不要來找NCC檢舉、不要來找NCC投訴，因為我一定會把你的資料洩漏出去。站在政府的立場，應該容許這種事嗎？次長。"],["黃次長謀信：當然不容許。"],["黃委員國昌：切實地查辦，切實地查辦，這件事情絕對不能無疾而終。謝謝。"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請陳俊宇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-23","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林月琴","黃國昌","羅智強","王世堅","黃健豪","謝龍介","陳俊宇","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","賴士葆","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","翁曉玲"],"page_start":39,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,897 --> 00:00:31,921\n委員馬有請市長跟署長委員好市長好我不知道怎麼形容再度看到你的心情我想對我如果說很遺憾又再看到你你可能會誤會但我不是那個意思\n\n2\n00:00:32,762 --> 00:00:56,053\n那我也可以理解我們現在部長好像在行政院參與總辭的過程嗎?沒錯那我也不會強求那我想先請教一下兩位都會留任嗎?對兩位沒有不敬的意思因為我在想說我們今天要進行法學的探討還是要政策的探討\n\n3\n00:00:57,352 --> 00:01:06,757\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆\n\n4\n00:01:19,502 --> 00:01:48,312\n法務部的同仁也很認真,版本送出去卡在行政院,在行政院睡覺,我的理解沒錯吧?但有一些在法律上面牽涉到制度性的基本問題我覺得還是要談清楚。我們聯合國反貪腐公約的國家報告,寫的是只有公部門的吹哨者保護還是包括私部門?\n\n5\n00:01:50,703 --> 00:02:17,717\n這部分是不是請跟委員說明聯合國反貪腐公約的話他只要求我們要儘速來推動接避者保護法那他並沒有我剛說你們寫的聯合國反貪腐公約的國家報告是只有公部門還是包括私部門的吹哨者保護這部分就立法體力的話並沒有說是哪一種部門但是就說他只我的老天啊不好意思我很想客氣的講來我唸給你聽啊\n\n6\n00:02:20,629 --> 00:02:45,126\n第二次聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告106頁我國已嚴定公私合併版接避者保護法草案以內部人員為限參酌外國立法例如英國、日本、歐盟的接避者保護制度均針對內部人員提供保護符合國際立法規範。這是不是我們反貪腐公約第二次國家報告的內容\n\n7\n00:02:46,738 --> 00:03:06,329\n這有白紙黑字的東西就不要爭辯了吧!浪費大家的時間啊!真的是浪費大家的時間啊!我們都是念法律的人啊!我把國家報告拿出來白紙黑字就寫在這裡那你如果不知道就是對你自己業務不熟嘛!\n\n8\n00:03:07,588 --> 00:03:29,046\n我們政府花這麼多錢寫這個聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告是在作秀嗎在當門面嗎有當一回事嗎最重要的主管的官員不知道裡面寫了什麼我們要回去把第二次聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告下架\n\n9\n00:03:32,435 --> 00:03:51,390\n一般人也不會看因為連我們自己主責的官員都不知道寫什麼嘛我們第二次到國家報告裡面喔還是公司部門都要有催造者保護法剛次長說關鍵的轉折在2023年嘛對吧2023年制度調整大轉彎我剛聽次長講應該沒有錯嘛\n\n10\n00:04:00,134 --> 00:04:01,738\n來,請署長。好,你們2023年是接到誰的陳情?\n\n11\n00:04:06,445 --> 00:04:13,029\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆\n\n12\n00:04:34,821 --> 00:04:44,763\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員\n\n13\n00:05:03,882 --> 00:05:16,950\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一�\n\n14\n00:05:32,671 --> 00:05:45,202\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第\n\n15\n00:06:00,649 --> 00:06:28,967\n國不其然今天總辭嗎今天行政院院版到目前為止還沒有提出來這個客觀的事實我沒有說錯吧對吧對吧那等於是我們過去所有的工作全部一切歸零新的院長新的部長從頭再來沒有人知道新的院長怎麼想啊也沒有人知道新的部長怎麼想啊一切從頭再來啊\n\n16\n00:06:32,043 --> 00:06:50,536\n為什麼人民會憤怒?這就是人民為什麼會憤怒來我講具體的例子我回到民間社會了以後崔少哲跑來找我們台灣公益階屁崔少哲保護協會說他揭發國防部的官員胡搞瞎搞違反軍紀他揭發了以後結果他的身份被洩漏了告訴檢舉人\n\n17\n00:06:59,633 --> 00:07:10,576\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第\n\n18\n00:07:26,823 --> 00:07:50,861\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第15會期司法及法制委員會第16會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司\n\n19\n00:07:52,730 --> 00:07:58,375\n三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆\n\n20\n00:08:07,746 --> 00:08:17,175\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會\n\n21\n00:08:32,779 --> 00:08:48,524\n吹哨者的身份所應該有的刑事處罰在吹哨者保護法要定。」他的性質跟一般洩露個資是不一樣的。署長同不同意?這部分可以考量嗎?對嘛!實際的實踐呢?人家已經都\n\n22\n00:08:52,847 --> 00:09:19,808\n把我的資料泄露出去檢舉的人已經知道誰檢舉他他從此以後要在一個非常敵意的工作環境當中不知道那個被檢舉的人什麼時候要在他背後捅他一刀結果泄露人家個資的人我們出面告發我們的檢察官喔這還不到法院我們的檢察官啊自己決定給他還起訴處分\n\n23\n00:09:24,335 --> 00:09:51,296\n政府國家法律賦予檢察官這樣的權限檢察官在行使這個權限的時候要有自覺這種權力的行使他不僅僅在形塑我國的刑事司法政策他也在考驗人民對檢察官的信心這個是檢察官權力的行使我們尊重但我必須要大聲的講我不同意\n\n24\n00:09:53,168 --> 00:10:21,905\n我必須要大聲地講我不同意如果我們的檢察官是這樣子在寬帶寬帶洩漏吹哨者資訊的人的話我們的政府要如何告訴這個社會勇敢出來吹哨我們的政府會保護你我們的國家會保護你我們的制度會保護你因為根本不會\n\n25\n00:10:22,881 --> 00:10:35,127\n民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1\n\n26\n00:10:40,857 --> 00:10:59,186\n公務員報告這部分應該台北地檢署他有分案出來確定有偵辦齁應該應該有我只要確定有立案偵辦就好了公務員報告確不確定我在我覺得他只有犯罪其實在理論上他就應該要自動然後第二個這更扯本院委員徐巧芯我不知道是不是他檢舉的啦\n\n27\n00:11:01,445 --> 00:11:26,383\n他說是他檢舉的然後他的email跟我們的NCC檢舉結果他的email被公開結果人家追查說是徐巧芯結果被檢舉的人很囂張了直接嗆他那他們兩個要對嗆我們意見啊兩個要對嗆我們意見我care的事情是我們的政府說保護吹哨者我們的NCC一而再再而三洩露檢舉員的個資該不該辦該不該辦\n\n28\n00:11:31,374 --> 00:11:45,963\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第15會期司法及法制委員會第16會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會\n\n29\n00:11:59,912 --> 00:12:03,974\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n\n30\n00:12:25,069 --> 00:12:25,954\n切實的查辦,這件事情絕對不能無疾而終。」\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3897\t31921\t委員馬有請市長跟署長委員好市長好我不知道怎麼形容再度看到你的心情我想對我如果說很遺憾又再看到你你可能會誤會但我不是那個意思\n32762\t56053\t那我也可以理解我們現在部長好像在行政院參與總辭的過程嗎?沒錯那我也不會強求那我想先請教一下兩位都會留任嗎?對兩位沒有不敬的意思因為我在想說我們今天要進行法學的探討還是要政策的探討\n57352\t66757\t民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆\n79502\t108312\t法務部的同仁也很認真,版本送出去卡在行政院,在行政院睡覺,我的理解沒錯吧?但有一些在法律上面牽涉到制度性的基本問題我覺得還是要談清楚。我們聯合國反貪腐公約的國家報告,寫的是只有公部門的吹哨者保護還是包括私部門?\n110703\t137717\t這部分是不是請跟委員說明聯合國反貪腐公約的話他只要求我們要儘速來推動接避者保護法那他並沒有我剛說你們寫的聯合國反貪腐公約的國家報告是只有公部門還是包括私部門的吹哨者保護這部分就立法體力的話並沒有說是哪一種部門但是就說他只我的老天啊不好意思我很想客氣的講來我唸給你聽啊\n140629\t165126\t第二次聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告106頁我國已嚴定公私合併版接避者保護法草案以內部人員為限參酌外國立法例如英國、日本、歐盟的接避者保護制度均針對內部人員提供保護符合國際立法規範。這是不是我們反貪腐公約第二次國家報告的內容\n166738\t186329\t這有白紙黑字的東西就不要爭辯了吧!浪費大家的時間啊!真的是浪費大家的時間啊!我們都是念法律的人啊!我把國家報告拿出來白紙黑字就寫在這裡那你如果不知道就是對你自己業務不熟嘛!\n187588\t209046\t我們政府花這麼多錢寫這個聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告是在作秀嗎在當門面嗎有當一回事嗎最重要的主管的官員不知道裡面寫了什麼我們要回去把第二次聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告下架\n212435\t231390\t一般人也不會看因為連我們自己主責的官員都不知道寫什麼嘛我們第二次到國家報告裡面喔還是公司部門都要有催造者保護法剛次長說關鍵的轉折在2023年嘛對吧2023年制度調整大轉彎我剛聽次長講應該沒有錯嘛\n240134\t241738\t來,請署長。好,你們2023年是接到誰的陳情?\n246445\t253029\t民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆\n274821\t284763\t民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員\n303882\t316950\t民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一�\n332671\t345202\t民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第\n360649\t388967\t國不其然 今天總辭嗎今天行政院院版到目前為止還沒有提出來這個客觀的事實我沒有說錯吧對吧對吧那等於是我們過去所有的工作全部一切歸零新的院長新的部長從頭再來沒有人知道新的院長怎麼想啊也沒有人知道新的部長怎麼想啊一切從頭再來啊\n392043\t410536\t為什麼人民會憤怒?這就是人民為什麼會憤怒來我講具體的例子我回到民間社會了以後崔少哲跑來找我們台灣公益階屁崔少哲保護協會說他揭發國防部的官員胡搞瞎搞違反軍紀他揭發了以後結果他的身份被洩漏了告訴檢舉人\n419633\t430576\t民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第\n446823\t470861\t民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第15會期司法及法制委員會第16會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司\n472730\t478375\t三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆\n487746\t497175\t刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會\n512779\t528524\t吹哨者的身份所應該有的刑事處罰在吹哨者保護法要定。」他的性質跟一般洩露個資是不一樣的。署長同不同意?這部分可以考量嗎?對嘛!實際的實踐呢?人家已經都\n532847\t559808\t把我的資料泄露出去檢舉的人已經知道誰檢舉他他從此以後要在一個非常敵意的工作環境當中不知道那個被檢舉的人什麼時候要在他背後捅他一刀結果泄露人家個資的人我們出面告發我們的檢察官喔這還不到法院我們的檢察官啊自己決定給他還起訴處分\n564335\t591296\t政府國家法律賦予檢察官這樣的權限檢察官在行使這個權限的時候要有自覺這種權力的行使他不僅僅在形塑我國的刑事司法政策他也在考驗人民對檢察官的信心這個是檢察官權力的行使我們尊重但我必須要大聲的講我不同意\n593168\t621905\t我必須要大聲地講我不同意如果我們的檢察官是這樣子在寬帶寬帶洩漏吹哨者資訊的人的話我們的政府要如何告訴這個社會勇敢出來吹哨我們的政府會保護你我們的國家會保護你我們的制度會保護你因為根本不會\n622881\t635127\t民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1\n640857\t659186\t公務員報告這部分應該台北地檢署他有分案出來確定有偵辦齁應該應該有我只要確定有立案偵辦就好了公務員報告確不確定我在我覺得他只有犯罪其實在理論上他就應該要自動然後第二個這更扯本院委員徐巧芯我不知道是不是他檢舉的啦\n661445\t686383\t他說是他檢舉的然後他的email跟我們的NCC檢舉結果他的email被公開結果人家追查說是徐巧芯結果被檢舉的人很囂張了直接嗆他那他們兩個要對嗆我們意見啊兩個要對嗆我們意見我care的事情是我們的政府說保護吹哨者我們的NCC一而再再而三洩露檢舉員的個資該不該辦該不該辦\n691374\t705963\t民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第15會期司法及法制委員會第16會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會\n719912\t723974\t民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n745069\t745954\t切實的查辦,這件事情絕對不能無疾而終。」\n","txt":"委員馬有請市長跟署長委員好市長好我不知道怎麼形容再度看到你的心情我想對我如果說很遺憾又再看到你你可能會誤會但我不是那個意思\n那我也可以理解我們現在部長好像在行政院參與總辭的過程嗎?沒錯那我也不會強求那我想先請教一下兩位都會留任嗎?對兩位沒有不敬的意思因為我在想說我們今天要進行法學的探討還是要政策的探討\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆\n法務部的同仁也很認真,版本送出去卡在行政院,在行政院睡覺,我的理解沒錯吧?但有一些在法律上面牽涉到制度性的基本問題我覺得還是要談清楚。我們聯合國反貪腐公約的國家報告,寫的是只有公部門的吹哨者保護還是包括私部門?\n這部分是不是請跟委員說明聯合國反貪腐公約的話他只要求我們要儘速來推動接避者保護法那他並沒有我剛說你們寫的聯合國反貪腐公約的國家報告是只有公部門還是包括私部門的吹哨者保護這部分就立法體力的話並沒有說是哪一種部門但是就說他只我的老天啊不好意思我很想客氣的講來我唸給你聽啊\n第二次聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告106頁我國已嚴定公私合併版接避者保護法草案以內部人員為限參酌外國立法例如英國、日本、歐盟的接避者保護制度均針對內部人員提供保護符合國際立法規範。這是不是我們反貪腐公約第二次國家報告的內容\n這有白紙黑字的東西就不要爭辯了吧!浪費大家的時間啊!真的是浪費大家的時間啊!我們都是念法律的人啊!我把國家報告拿出來白紙黑字就寫在這裡那你如果不知道就是對你自己業務不熟嘛!\n我們政府花這麼多錢寫這個聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告是在作秀嗎在當門面嗎有當一回事嗎最重要的主管的官員不知道裡面寫了什麼我們要回去把第二次聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告下架\n一般人也不會看因為連我們自己主責的官員都不知道寫什麼嘛我們第二次到國家報告裡面喔還是公司部門都要有催造者保護法剛次長說關鍵的轉折在2023年嘛對吧2023年制度調整大轉彎我剛聽次長講應該沒有錯嘛\n來,請署長。好,你們2023年是接到誰的陳情?\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一�\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第\n國不其然 今天總辭嗎今天行政院院版到目前為止還沒有提出來這個客觀的事實我沒有說錯吧對吧對吧那等於是我們過去所有的工作全部一切歸零新的院長新的部長從頭再來沒有人知道新的院長怎麼想啊也沒有人知道新的部長怎麼想啊一切從頭再來啊\n為什麼人民會憤怒?這就是人民為什麼會憤怒來我講具體的例子我回到民間社會了以後崔少哲跑來找我們台灣公益階屁崔少哲保護協會說他揭發國防部的官員胡搞瞎搞違反軍紀他揭發了以後結果他的身份被洩漏了告訴檢舉人\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第15會期司法及法制委員會第16會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司\n三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會\n吹哨者的身份所應該有的刑事處罰在吹哨者保護法要定。」他的性質跟一般洩露個資是不一樣的。署長同不同意?這部分可以考量嗎?對嘛!實際的實踐呢?人家已經都\n把我的資料泄露出去檢舉的人已經知道誰檢舉他他從此以後要在一個非常敵意的工作環境當中不知道那個被檢舉的人什麼時候要在他背後捅他一刀結果泄露人家個資的人我們出面告發我們的檢察官喔這還不到法院我們的檢察官啊自己決定給他還起訴處分\n政府國家法律賦予檢察官這樣的權限檢察官在行使這個權限的時候要有自覺這種權力的行使他不僅僅在形塑我國的刑事司法政策他也在考驗人民對檢察官的信心這個是檢察官權力的行使我們尊重但我必須要大聲的講我不同意\n我必須要大聲地講我不同意如果我們的檢察官是這樣子在寬帶寬帶洩漏吹哨者資訊的人的話我們的政府要如何告訴這個社會勇敢出來吹哨我們的政府會保護你我們的國家會保護你我們的制度會保護你因為根本不會\n民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1\n公務員報告這部分應該台北地檢署他有分案出來確定有偵辦齁應該應該有我只要確定有立案偵辦就好了公務員報告確不確定我在我覺得他只有犯罪其實在理論上他就應該要自動然後第二個這更扯本院委員徐巧芯我不知道是不是他檢舉的啦\n他說是他檢舉的然後他的email跟我們的NCC檢舉結果他的email被公開結果人家追查說是徐巧芯結果被檢舉的人很囂張了直接嗆他那他們兩個要對嗆我們意見啊兩個要對嗆我們意見我care的事情是我們的政府說保護吹哨者我們的NCC一而再再而三洩露檢舉員的個資該不該辦該不該辦\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第15會期司法及法制委員會第16會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n切實的查辦,這件事情絕對不能無疾而終。」\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.897 --> 00:31.921\n委員馬有請市長跟署長委員好市長好我不知道怎麼形容再度看到你的心情我想對我如果說很遺憾又再看到你你可能會誤會但我不是那個意思\n\n00:32.762 --> 00:56.053\n那我也可以理解我們現在部長好像在行政院參與總辭的過程嗎?沒錯那我也不會強求那我想先請教一下兩位都會留任嗎?對兩位沒有不敬的意思因為我在想說我們今天要進行法學的探討還是要政策的探討\n\n00:57.352 --> 01:06.757\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆\n\n01:19.502 --> 01:48.312\n法務部的同仁也很認真,版本送出去卡在行政院,在行政院睡覺,我的理解沒錯吧?但有一些在法律上面牽涉到制度性的基本問題我覺得還是要談清楚。我們聯合國反貪腐公約的國家報告,寫的是只有公部門的吹哨者保護還是包括私部門?\n\n01:50.703 --> 02:17.717\n這部分是不是請跟委員說明聯合國反貪腐公約的話他只要求我們要儘速來推動接避者保護法那他並沒有我剛說你們寫的聯合國反貪腐公約的國家報告是只有公部門還是包括私部門的吹哨者保護這部分就立法體力的話並沒有說是哪一種部門但是就說他只我的老天啊不好意思我很想客氣的講來我唸給你聽啊\n\n02:20.629 --> 02:45.126\n第二次聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告106頁我國已嚴定公私合併版接避者保護法草案以內部人員為限參酌外國立法例如英國、日本、歐盟的接避者保護制度均針對內部人員提供保護符合國際立法規範。這是不是我們反貪腐公約第二次國家報告的內容\n\n02:46.738 --> 03:06.329\n這有白紙黑字的東西就不要爭辯了吧!浪費大家的時間啊!真的是浪費大家的時間啊!我們都是念法律的人啊!我把國家報告拿出來白紙黑字就寫在這裡那你如果不知道就是對你自己業務不熟嘛!\n\n03:07.588 --> 03:29.046\n我們政府花這麼多錢寫這個聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告是在作秀嗎在當門面嗎有當一回事嗎最重要的主管的官員不知道裡面寫了什麼我們要回去把第二次聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告下架\n\n03:32.435 --> 03:51.390\n一般人也不會看因為連我們自己主責的官員都不知道寫什麼嘛我們第二次到國家報告裡面喔還是公司部門都要有催造者保護法剛次長說關鍵的轉折在2023年嘛對吧2023年制度調整大轉彎我剛聽次長講應該沒有錯嘛\n\n04:00.134 --> 04:01.738\n來,請署長。好,你們2023年是接到誰的陳情?\n\n04:06.445 --> 04:13.029\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆\n\n04:34.821 --> 04:44.763\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員\n\n05:03.882 --> 05:16.950\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一�\n\n05:32.671 --> 05:45.202\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第\n\n06:00.649 --> 06:28.967\n國不其然今天總辭嗎今天行政院院版到目前為止還沒有提出來這個客觀的事實我沒有說錯吧對吧對吧那等於是我們過去所有的工作全部一切歸零新的院長新的部長從頭再來沒有人知道新的院長怎麼想啊也沒有人知道新的部長怎麼想啊一切從頭再來啊\n\n06:32.043 --> 06:50.536\n為什麼人民會憤怒?這就是人民為什麼會憤怒來我講具體的例子我回到民間社會了以後崔少哲跑來找我們台灣公益階屁崔少哲保護協會說他揭發國防部的官員胡搞瞎搞違反軍紀他揭發了以後結果他的身份被洩漏了告訴檢舉人\n\n06:59.633 --> 07:10.576\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第\n\n07:26.823 --> 07:50.861\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第15會期司法及法制委員會第16會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司\n\n07:52.730 --> 07:58.375\n三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆\n\n08:07.746 --> 08:17.175\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會\n\n08:32.779 --> 08:48.524\n吹哨者的身份所應該有的刑事處罰在吹哨者保護法要定。」他的性質跟一般洩露個資是不一樣的。署長同不同意?這部分可以考量嗎?對嘛!實際的實踐呢?人家已經都\n\n08:52.847 --> 09:19.808\n把我的資料泄露出去檢舉的人已經知道誰檢舉他他從此以後要在一個非常敵意的工作環境當中不知道那個被檢舉的人什麼時候要在他背後捅他一刀結果泄露人家個資的人我們出面告發我們的檢察官喔這還不到法院我們的檢察官啊自己決定給他還起訴處分\n\n09:24.335 --> 09:51.296\n政府國家法律賦予檢察官這樣的權限檢察官在行使這個權限的時候要有自覺這種權力的行使他不僅僅在形塑我國的刑事司法政策他也在考驗人民對檢察官的信心這個是檢察官權力的行使我們尊重但我必須要大聲的講我不同意\n\n09:53.168 --> 10:21.905\n我必須要大聲地講我不同意如果我們的檢察官是這樣子在寬帶寬帶洩漏吹哨者資訊的人的話我們的政府要如何告訴這個社會勇敢出來吹哨我們的政府會保護你我們的國家會保護你我們的制度會保護你因為根本不會\n\n10:22.881 --> 10:35.127\n民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1\n\n10:40.857 --> 10:59.186\n公務員報告這部分應該台北地檢署他有分案出來確定有偵辦齁應該應該有我只要確定有立案偵辦就好了公務員報告確不確定我在我覺得他只有犯罪其實在理論上他就應該要自動然後第二個這更扯本院委員徐巧芯我不知道是不是他檢舉的啦\n\n11:01.445 --> 11:26.383\n他說是他檢舉的然後他的email跟我們的NCC檢舉結果他的email被公開結果人家追查說是徐巧芯結果被檢舉的人很囂張了直接嗆他那他們兩個要對嗆我們意見啊兩個要對嗆我們意見我care的事情是我們的政府說保護吹哨者我們的NCC一而再再而三洩露檢舉員的個資該不該辦該不該辦\n\n11:31.374 --> 11:45.963\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第15會期司法及法制委員會第16會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會\n\n11:59.912 --> 12:03.974\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n\n12:25.069 --> 12:25.954\n切實的查辦,這件事情絕對不能無疾而終。」\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.897,"end":31.921,"text":"委員馬有請市長跟署長委員好市長好我不知道怎麼形容再度看到你的心情我想對我如果說很遺憾又再看到你你可能會誤會但我不是那個意思"},{"start":32.762,"end":56.053,"text":"那我也可以理解我們現在部長好像在行政院參與總辭的過程嗎?沒錯那我也不會強求那我想先請教一下兩位都會留任嗎?對兩位沒有不敬的意思因為我在想說我們今天要進行法學的探討還是要政策的探討"},{"start":57.352,"end":66.757,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆"},{"start":79.502,"end":108.312,"text":"法務部的同仁也很認真,版本送出去卡在行政院,在行政院睡覺,我的理解沒錯吧?但有一些在法律上面牽涉到制度性的基本問題我覺得還是要談清楚。我們聯合國反貪腐公約的國家報告,寫的是只有公部門的吹哨者保護還是包括私部門?"},{"start":110.703,"end":137.717,"text":"這部分是不是請跟委員說明聯合國反貪腐公約的話他只要求我們要儘速來推動接避者保護法那他並沒有我剛說你們寫的聯合國反貪腐公約的國家報告是只有公部門還是包括私部門的吹哨者保護這部分就立法體力的話並沒有說是哪一種部門但是就說他只我的老天啊不好意思我很想客氣的講來我唸給你聽啊"},{"start":140.629,"end":165.126,"text":"第二次聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告106頁我國已嚴定公私合併版接避者保護法草案以內部人員為限參酌外國立法例如英國、日本、歐盟的接避者保護制度均針對內部人員提供保護符合國際立法規範。這是不是我們反貪腐公約第二次國家報告的內容"},{"start":166.738,"end":186.329,"text":"這有白紙黑字的東西就不要爭辯了吧!浪費大家的時間啊!真的是浪費大家的時間啊!我們都是念法律的人啊!我把國家報告拿出來白紙黑字就寫在這裡那你如果不知道就是對你自己業務不熟嘛!"},{"start":187.588,"end":209.046,"text":"我們政府花這麼多錢寫這個聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告是在作秀嗎在當門面嗎有當一回事嗎最重要的主管的官員不知道裡面寫了什麼我們要回去把第二次聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告下架"},{"start":212.435,"end":231.39,"text":"一般人也不會看因為連我們自己主責的官員都不知道寫什麼嘛我們第二次到國家報告裡面喔還是公司部門都要有催造者保護法剛次長說關鍵的轉折在2023年嘛對吧2023年制度調整大轉彎我剛聽次長講應該沒有錯嘛"},{"start":240.134,"end":241.738,"text":"來,請署長。好,你們2023年是接到誰的陳情?"},{"start":246.445,"end":253.029,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆"},{"start":274.821,"end":284.763,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"},{"start":303.882,"end":316.95,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一�"},{"start":332.671,"end":345.202,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第"},{"start":360.649,"end":388.967,"text":"國不其然 今天總辭嗎今天行政院院版到目前為止還沒有提出來這個客觀的事實我沒有說錯吧對吧對吧那等於是我們過去所有的工作全部一切歸零新的院長新的部長從頭再來沒有人知道新的院長怎麼想啊也沒有人知道新的部長怎麼想啊一切從頭再來啊"},{"start":392.043,"end":410.536,"text":"為什麼人民會憤怒?這就是人民為什麼會憤怒來我講具體的例子我回到民間社會了以後崔少哲跑來找我們台灣公益階屁崔少哲保護協會說他揭發國防部的官員胡搞瞎搞違反軍紀他揭發了以後結果他的身份被洩漏了告訴檢舉人"},{"start":419.633,"end":430.576,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第"},{"start":446.823,"end":470.861,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第15會期司法及法制委員會第16會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司"},{"start":472.73,"end":478.375,"text":"三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆"},{"start":487.746,"end":497.175,"text":"刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":512.779,"end":528.524,"text":"吹哨者的身份所應該有的刑事處罰在吹哨者保護法要定。」他的性質跟一般洩露個資是不一樣的。署長同不同意?這部分可以考量嗎?對嘛!實際的實踐呢?人家已經都"},{"start":532.847,"end":559.808,"text":"把我的資料泄露出去檢舉的人已經知道誰檢舉他他從此以後要在一個非常敵意的工作環境當中不知道那個被檢舉的人什麼時候要在他背後捅他一刀結果泄露人家個資的人我們出面告發我們的檢察官喔這還不到法院我們的檢察官啊自己決定給他還起訴處分"},{"start":564.335,"end":591.296,"text":"政府國家法律賦予檢察官這樣的權限檢察官在行使這個權限的時候要有自覺這種權力的行使他不僅僅在形塑我國的刑事司法政策他也在考驗人民對檢察官的信心這個是檢察官權力的行使我們尊重但我必須要大聲的講我不同意"},{"start":593.168,"end":621.905,"text":"我必須要大聲地講我不同意如果我們的檢察官是這樣子在寬帶寬帶洩漏吹哨者資訊的人的話我們的政府要如何告訴這個社會勇敢出來吹哨我們的政府會保護你我們的國家會保護你我們的制度會保護你因為根本不會"},{"start":622.881,"end":635.127,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1"},{"start":640.857,"end":659.186,"text":"公務員報告這部分應該台北地檢署他有分案出來確定有偵辦齁應該應該有我只要確定有立案偵辦就好了公務員報告確不確定我在我覺得他只有犯罪其實在理論上他就應該要自動然後第二個這更扯本院委員徐巧芯我不知道是不是他檢舉的啦"},{"start":661.445,"end":686.383,"text":"他說是他檢舉的然後他的email跟我們的NCC檢舉結果他的email被公開結果人家追查說是徐巧芯結果被檢舉的人很囂張了直接嗆他那他們兩個要對嗆我們意見啊兩個要對嗆我們意見我care的事情是我們的政府說保護吹哨者我們的NCC一而再再而三洩露檢舉員的個資該不該辦該不該辦"},{"start":691.374,"end":705.963,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第15會期司法及法制委員會第16會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":719.912,"end":723.974,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":745.069,"end":745.954,"text":"切實的查辦,這件事情絕對不能無疾而終。」"}]}}}}