{"id":152616,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152616","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc3036e0f60aa3a27d0fc1296c2fd5de7bd8e01ba30ddb4afe0f1ed3886e2543e9df5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:38:49 - 10:50:44","影片長度":"00:11:55","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-23"},"duration":715,"end_time":"2024-05-16T10:50:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T10:38:49+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":688,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時38分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請法務部黃次長還有金管會的代表法律事務處的廖專門委員。跟主席反映一下，因為揭弊者法案其實有很大部分跟金融相關，事先不曉得金管會只有事務處專門委員的層級來，覺得有點可惜，跟主席反映一下。"],["主席：謝謝，這我會稍微思考一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。","請教次長，看到法務部的報告，我的題目是保護跟保密之間、公益和損害之間怎麼去平衡。首先，這個法案一開始叫做吹哨者保護法，當時的李秘書長提到，各界意見分歧，還在整合當中，是不是這樣？你們認為一開始是不是有相當多不同的意見？"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，的確是，這部分我們請負責的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是屬於廉政署？"],["黃次長謀信：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，莊署長，我看到報告寫公私分立，公部門先行，這是一開始，對不對？後來你們說要公私合併，甚至還有一個上市上櫃版，就是私的部分是上市上櫃公司，為什麼？"],["莊署長榮松：當然這是牽涉到立法策略的調整，有這樣一個考量，都有一個歷史背景。"],["鍾委員佳濱：具體講為什麼是上市上櫃公司？"],["莊署長榮松：因為我們覺得中小企業太多，這部分我們怕衝擊太大，所以我們限縮在上市上櫃公司，因為上市上櫃公司的財報透明度比較高。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為私部門的部分如果涉及公司，公司數量相當多，所以以上市上櫃……"],["莊署長榮松：對，怕衝擊。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是為什麼要請金管會人員列席的原因。","那現在你們說公私分流、行政立法雙軌並進，這是什麼意思？"],["莊署長榮松：就是我們先就公部門的部分立法，私部門的部分我們是用行政指導的方式來做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：公私分流，公部門用立法來監督，私部門用行政來指導。好，其實我本來要問的就是揭弊者保護法各個版本的爭議或差異為何，接下來，我就具體案例來請教，這是跟法務部比較沒有關，要問署長嗎？因為我不曉得，次長晾在那裡也很奇怪，那次長，您先請回，謝謝。我請署長回答。那麼我就這個案例來講，依照上市上櫃版，公司董事應否納入保護的法理，舉例來說，根據公司法第二百零二條，公司業務執行應由董事會來決議，所以董事是負責公司執行一個很重要的守門人，是不是這樣？如果董事或董事會負責執行公司業務，是不是應該先就可能的弊案有除去或預防公司違法的義務？署長，就你對這個法條的理解。你怎麼僵住了呢？還是要問金管會？"],["莊署長榮松：委員講的是上市上櫃版？"],["鍾委員佳濱：不管是不是上市上櫃版，對啦，董事應該是上市上櫃啦，還是你要請金管會來講一下？你們認為呢？金管會對於上市上櫃版，你們認為董事或董事會負責執行公司業務，是否應該有預防或除去違法的義務嗎？"],["廖專門委員怡如：因為董事或董事會基於跟公司之間的委任關係，所以基本上他要負善良管理人的注意義務。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以是揭弊的話，他本身就有防弊的義務，如果他再去揭弊，那在什麼情況下他的揭弊才有可能符合未來揭弊者保護法的保護範圍？你認為呢？"],["廖專門委員怡如：抱歉，委員，您的意思我剛剛沒有聽清楚。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我再說一次，董事本身在執行業務、執行職權當中他就可以預防或者除去公司的一些違法事項，但他沒有去做這個事情而是以揭弊的方式來提出，這樣他受保障的法理基礎在哪裡？"],["廖專門委員怡如：不好意思，因為現在行政院基本上政策方向如果照最近的研議是希望公部門這邊先透過立法的部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們對這部分沒有特別意見？"],["廖專門委員怡如：現在的政策方向是要就公部門先透過立法的部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以金管會目前對這個部分還沒有開始研議？"],["廖專門委員怡如：不能說還沒有開始研議，但是因為它已經不是目前……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是目前的法案了？"],["廖專門委員怡如：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是目前我們委員的版本有沒有提到這樣一個是沒有區分上市櫃公司或沒有分公司，就是通通要納入？那你們要怎麼去因應？"],["廖專門委員怡如：這部分因為涉及相關政策，所以後續我們還要再……"],["鍾委員佳濱：具體來講我以一個案例來說，如果某公司的董事A發現理專B涉嫌挪用客戶資金，他是本來就可以直接在董事會中予以查處，或者他是要先向金管會匿名檢舉，還是先在董事會中檢討可能的內控疏失？實務上來講。這個我恐怕今天問不到署長、問不到次長，只能問到金管會，您覺得如果現在各個版本當中，以公司都涵蓋進去，那麼這個董事應該是直接向金管會匿名檢舉，還是在董事會先檢討可能的內控疏失？"],["廖專門委員怡如：這個部分的話，直接向金管會匿名檢舉或者是跟董事會檢討可能的內控缺失，因為他有可能兩邊都可以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：都可以？"],["廖專門委員怡如：但這個部分只是我自己個人，因為這還沒有形成一個政策方向。"],["鍾委員佳濱：OK，好，既然是個人，我們就不便再問下去了。","再往下看內稽內控的法遵如何落實，如果不是董事像這樣對於違法者有職務上的督導之責任，譬如職員C發現自己的上司理專B疑似挪用客戶的資金，如果公司已經有內部的法遵內稽內控，那他是不是應該要先向公司的法遵檢舉？你認為呢？或者我來問署長？因為這個版本你們毫不研議啊，這個上市上櫃版你們現在好像是把它放棄了。署長你說明一下，你們在研議過程中遇到這種情況時怎麼去分工？"],["莊署長榮松：如果依上市上櫃的版本，我個人認為他應該兩部分都可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：兩部分都可以？"],["莊署長榮松：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們往下看金控公司內稽內控的稽核辦法，包括他的身分資料應予保密、不得因檢舉而對檢舉人予以解僱。我想這裡有一個問題就在你們的報告當中，因為我還沒有看到你們最新的版本，你們好像是3月的時候送行政院嘛？"],["莊署長榮松：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前有再修改嗎？"],["莊署長榮松：現在行政院有開過一次審查會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以可能還在變化當中？"],["莊署長榮松：還沒有出行政院。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還沒有定案？"],["莊署長榮松：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我想請問，你們的報告當中說檢舉跟揭弊，要怎麼區分？現在我們內稽內控有檢舉啊，這個檢舉跟你們未來所謂的揭弊要怎麼做區分？"],["莊署長榮松：揭弊當然指的是揭弊者保護法裡面特定的犯罪，其他的部分我們就……"],["鍾委員佳濱：OK，就是特定的犯罪，那金融的部分像我剛講到的挪用客戶資金，這算不算是公司內部的弊案？"],["莊署長榮松：如果依照我們送行政院的草案最後一個版本的話，我們是限於公部門版。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們只限於公部門，好，已經越來越清楚了。","那我們再往下走，其實這裡就有第三個問題了，受理揭弊單位的保密義務，這裡面包括私部門還有公部門，因為你們說私部門你們都……這樣我就問不下去了，因為現在所有委員的版本是不是都包含了私部門？是不是？"],["莊署長榮松：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那請教一下，既然這麼多委員的版本都聚焦於私部門，你們說目前行政院可能的方向是公私並進，但是公部門是用立法的方式來處理、私部門是用行政指導的方式來處理，而我們現在所有的版本內容都是公私一起進入到揭弊的檢舉。我再請教一下，揭弊當然是希望為了維護社會的公共利益，我們授予知之違法者對於所屬的部門（不管是公部門或私部門）提出舉發，揭弊者的身分因為要保護，所以我們要保密，揭弊的內容在調查過程當中是否宜於揭露？你認為呢？"],["莊署長榮松：在調查的過程當然是保密。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以要課以揭弊受理單位保持對調查保密的義務，是不是？"],["莊署長榮松：當然。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，最後要提到，其實這裡面就出現了一個最近社會上引起很多討論的叫做「檢舉達人」，檢舉達人當時的立意是希望透過民眾的檢舉協助執法機關擴大執法範疇，原來用意良好；但是後來檢舉者不能取代執法者，甚至有專門職業的浮濫檢舉，造成民眾很大的痛苦。其實在揭弊者保護法一方面我們希望的是揭弊能夠揭發一個不管公私部門內部的弊案，但是揭弊的過程當中如果不是真實，甚至你們在報告當中也提出，我們草案當中有提到如果以損及特定部門、公司的利益為目標的揭弊，你們覺得這個部分因為很難定義，所以你們沒有去規劃，是不是這樣？"],["莊署長榮松：各版本還有我們最後送行政院的版本對這種惡意或者是虛假，事實上是有排除、有防範的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是在不知道是虛假之前你們會調查嘛，那如果當初提供者、揭弊者的目的就是透過可能無法確定為不實的資訊，在調查過程中惡意向外洩漏，而造成他打擊特定部門的用意，你們要怎麼樣去預防？就是在揭弊的過程，匿名揭弊、調查、公開報導，譬如以這個例子，離職員工爆料他的公司是烏龍爆料，結果被要求判賠50萬喔，可是公司商譽已經受損了。在你們的版本，調查過程中是不是對弊案的內容和揭弊者都要進行保密？"],["莊署長榮松：要保密。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要保密，好。最後因為今天你們的內容顯然跟我們現在已經送委員會的版本有很大的差異，這是我的結論：請主管機關在一週內研擬報告，比較你們現在送院的版本跟其他在委員會的版本的差別，可以嗎？"],["莊署長榮松：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：也跟主席請求，我覺得今天排這個揭弊者保護法的討論很好，很顯然的現在我們手上有的版本相較於我們未來期望能夠來審查的版本還是很大的缺漏，主席是不是可以允許未來這個法案在程序上多一點時間，我們能夠將所有的法案都完整納入來進行審查？可以嗎？"],["主席：鍾召委，這部分我會很審慎的考量，因為這很重要，我覺得要，因為這草案好像滿多爭議的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對呀！"],["主席：我知道、我知道，我等一下思考一下，愈嚴謹當然是愈好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。"],["主席：我們法律人的觀念是這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝主席。謝謝！"],["主席：下一位請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-23","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林月琴","黃國昌","羅智強","王世堅","黃健豪","謝龍介","陳俊宇","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","賴士葆","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","翁曉玲"],"page_start":39,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 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\"start\": 696.023, \"end\": 696.043, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 696.043, \"end\": 696.103, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 696.103, \"end\": 696.123, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 696.123, \"end\": 696.163, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"百\", \"start\": 696.163, \"end\": 696.243, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 696.243, \"end\": 696.263, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"十\", \"start\": 696.263, \"end\": 696.343, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"九\", \"start\": 696.343, \"end\": 696.383, \"score\": 0.498}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 696.383, \"end\": 696.443, \"score\": 0.66}, {\"word\": \"四\", \"start\": 696.443, \"end\": 696.463, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 696.463, \"end\": 696.543, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 696.543, \"end\": 696.603, \"score\": 0.649}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 696.603, \"end\": 696.703, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"草\", \"start\": 696.703, \"end\": 696.723, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 696.723, \"end\": 696.763, \"score\": 0.495}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 696.763, \"end\": 696.783, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,373 --> 00:00:26,849\n主席在堂的委員先進列席的政府機關所長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請法務部黃次長還有金管會的代表金管會代表應該是法律事務處的廖專門委員\n\n2\n00:00:29,161 --> 00:00:53,717\n那跟主席反映一下,因為這個接避責法案其實有很大的部分是跟金融相關,那事前不曉得我們金管會只有事務處的專門委員成績來,覺得有點可惜啊。跟主席也反映一下。謝謝。好,謝謝。那這我會稍微思考一下。好,謝謝。那麼請教次長,我看到法務部的報告,\n\n3\n00:00:54,864 --> 00:01:02,607\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員\n\n4\n00:01:06,254 --> 00:01:14,899\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華\n\n5\n00:01:37,888 --> 00:02:07,100\n當然這是牽涉到立法策略的調整那當然這個是有這樣子的一個考量那當然這個都有一個歷史具體講為什麼為什麼是上市上櫃因為我們覺得說因為雙小企業太多這部分我們怕衝擊太大所以我們限縮在上市上櫃因為上市上櫃公司的財報因為私部門的部分如果涉及到公司公司數量相當多所以是不是以上市上櫃所以為什麼要請今晚會的原因那現在你們說公司分流行政立法雙委並進這是什麼意思\n\n6\n00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:14,083\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆\n\n7\n00:02:31,912 --> 00:02:36,693\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n\n8\n00:03:01,758 --> 00:03:10,442\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員\n\n9\n00:03:31,496 --> 00:03:35,598\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n\n10\n00:04:06,115 --> 00:04:22,567\n我再說一次董事本身他就在執行業務當中執行職權當中他就可以預防或者去除去公司的一些違法事項那他沒有去做這個事情他以接避的方式來提出那這樣他受保障的法理基礎在哪裡\n\n11\n00:04:23,968 --> 00:04:24,508\n馬文君等17人擬具\n\n12\n00:04:43,130 --> 00:04:51,442\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法\n\n13\n00:04:58,915 --> 00:05:17,009\n這部分我們後續因為這部分涉及到相關的所以我們還要再具體來講齁我來具體來講來以一個案例來說齁如果某公司的董事A發現禮專B涉嫌挪用客戶資金那他本來就可以直接在董事會當中去予以查處\n\n14\n00:05:18,021 --> 00:05:44,498\n或者說他可以他是要在金管會先去匿名檢舉還是在董事會當中去檢舉可能的檢討可能的內控疏失實務上來講這個我恐怕今天問到的都是問不到市長問不到市長都只能問到金管會您覺得如果現在各個版本當中以公視都涵蓋進去那麼這個董事他應該是直接向金管會匿名檢舉還是在董事會先去檢討可能的內控疏失\n\n15\n00:05:49,706 --> 00:06:06,351\n這個部分的話直接向金管會匿名檢舉或者是跟董事會檢討可能的內控缺失因為他有可能兩邊都可以都可以但這個部分這只是我自己個人因為不OK好那既然是個人我們就不跟他問下去了好再往下看好來那麼再來講內機內控的法徵如何落實\n\n16\n00:06:12,293 --> 00:06:29,951\n那如果不是董事像這樣的對於違法者有職務上的督導之責任比如說一個職員C發現自己的上司李專B有疑似挪用客戶的資金那如果公司已經有內部的一個法尊內機內控那他是不是應該要向先公司的法尊檢舉\n\n17\n00:06:31,195 --> 00:06:36,402\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期\n\n18\n00:06:44,997 --> 00:07:11,636\n如果一上是上貴版的版本的話我個人認為他應該兩兩部分都可以兩部分都可以好那往下看來我們來看一下這是金控公司他的內機內控的集合辦法那麼包括的身份資料應於保密那不應檢舉的對檢舉人於解雇我想這裡有一個問題就在你們的報告當中你們說因為我們我還沒有看到你們最新的版本你們好像是三月的時候送行政院嗎那目前有在修改嗎\n\n19\n00:07:13,203 --> 00:07:25,337\n現在行政院有開過一次審查會所以可能還在變化當中還沒有還沒有還沒有出還沒有定案對那我想請問你們報告當中你們說檢舉跟這個接避要怎麼區分現在我們內機內控有檢舉啊那這個檢舉跟你們所謂來的接避要怎麼做區分\n\n20\n00:07:35,049 --> 00:07:47,808\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第5會期司法及法制委員會第6會期司法及法制委員會第7會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第9會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期\n\n21\n00:07:49,495 --> 00:08:14,540\n如果依照我們最後送行政院的這個草案最後一個版本的話我們是限於公部門公部門版你們只限於公部門好已經越來越清楚了好那我們再往下走其實呢這裡就一個第三個問題了受理接避單位他的保密義務因為這裡面包括私部門還有公部門好那因為你們說私部門你們都這樣我就問不下去了因為我們現在所有委員版本是不是都包含了私部門\n\n22\n00:08:15,871 --> 00:08:21,175\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆\n\n23\n00:08:45,663 --> 00:08:48,884\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n\n24\n00:09:01,621 --> 00:09:11,427\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．\n\n25\n00:09:19,690 --> 00:09:37,086\n那這檢舉達人當時利益是希望透過民眾的檢舉協助執法機關擴大他執法的範疇這原來用意是良好但是後來檢舉者他不能取代執法者造成甚至有專門職業的腐爛的檢舉造成民眾很大的痛苦\n\n26\n00:09:37,586 --> 00:09:43,169\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期\n\n27\n00:10:03,850 --> 00:10:28,210\n對各版本還有我們最後送行政院的版本對這種惡意或者是虛假我們事實上是有排除的是有方法的但是在不知道它是虛假之前你們會調查嗎那如果當初提供者接避者目的就是透過可能無法確定為不實的資訊在調查過程中惡意向外洩露而造成對他打擊特定部門的用意那你們怎麼樣去預防就是\n\n28\n00:10:31,889 --> 00:10:33,832\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n\n29\n00:10:47,759 --> 00:10:56,484\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法\n\n30\n00:11:09,928 --> 00:11:34,347\n那也跟主席謝謝也跟主席請求我覺得今天排這個雞皮疙瘩保護案的討論很好這很顯然的現在我們手上有的版本相較於我們未來期望能夠來審查的版本還是有很大的缺肉是不是可以主席可以允許未來我們在這個法案在程序上多一點時間我們能夠將所有的法案都完整的納入來進行審查可以嗎\n\n31\n00:11:35,923 --> 00:11:36,783\n中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案案\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7373\t26849\t主席在堂的委員先進列席的政府機關所長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請法務部黃次長還有金管會的代表金管會代表應該是法律事務處的廖專門委員\n29161\t53717\t那跟主席反映一下,因為這個接避責法案其實有很大的部分是跟金融相關,那事前不曉得我們金管會只有事務處的專門委員成績來,覺得有點可惜啊。跟主席也反映一下。謝謝。好,謝謝。那這我會稍微思考一下。好,謝謝。那麼請教次長,我看到法務部的報告,\n54864\t62607\t民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員\n66254\t74899\t民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華\n97888\t127100\t當然這是牽涉到立法策略的調整那當然這個是有這樣子的一個考量那當然這個都有一個歷史具體講為什麼為什麼是上市上櫃因為我們覺得說因為雙小企業太多這部分我們怕衝擊太大所以我們限縮在上市上櫃因為上市上櫃公司的財報因為私部門的部分如果涉及到公司公司數量相當多所以是不是以上市上櫃所以為什麼要請今晚會的原因那現在你們說公司分流行政立法雙委並進這是什麼意思\n128080\t134083\t民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆\n151912\t156693\t民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n181758\t190442\t民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員\n211496\t215598\t民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n246115\t262567\t我再說一次董事本身他就在執行業務當中執行職權當中他就可以預防或者去除去公司的一些違法事項那他沒有去做這個事情他以接避的方式來提出那這樣他受保障的法理基礎在哪裡\n263968\t264508\t馬文君等17人擬具\n283130\t291442\t民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法\n298915\t317009\t這部分我們後續因為這部分涉及到相關的所以我們還要再具體來講齁我來具體來講來以一個案例來說齁如果某公司的董事A發現禮專B涉嫌挪用客戶資金那他本來就可以直接在董事會當中去予以查處\n318021\t344498\t或者說他可以他是要在金管會先去匿名檢舉還是在董事會當中去檢舉可能的檢討可能的內控疏失實務上來講這個我恐怕今天問到的都是問不到市長問不到市長都只能問到金管會您覺得如果現在各個版本當中以公視都涵蓋進去那麼這個董事他應該是直接向金管會匿名檢舉還是在董事會先去檢討可能的內控疏失\n349706\t366351\t這個部分的話直接向金管會匿名檢舉或者是跟董事會檢討可能的內控缺失因為他有可能兩邊都可以都可以但這個部分這只是我自己個人因為不OK好那既然是個人我們就不跟他問下去了好再往下看好來那麼再來講內機內控的法徵如何落實\n372293\t389951\t那如果不是董事像這樣的對於違法者有職務上的督導之責任比如說一個職員C發現自己的上司李專B有疑似挪用客戶的資金那如果公司已經有內部的一個法尊內機內控那他是不是應該要向先公司的法尊檢舉\n391195\t396402\t民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期\n404997\t431636\t如果一上是上貴版的版本的話我個人認為他應該兩兩部分都可以兩部分都可以好那往下看來我們來看一下這是金控公司他的內機內控的集合辦法那麼包括的身份資料應於保密那不應檢舉的對檢舉人於解雇我想這裡有一個問題就在你們的報告當中你們說因為我們我還沒有看到你們最新的版本你們好像是三月的時候送行政院嗎那目前有在修改嗎\n433203\t445337\t現在行政院有開過一次審查會所以可能還在變化當中還沒有還沒有還沒有出還沒有定案對那我想請問你們報告當中你們說檢舉跟這個接避要怎麼區分現在我們內機內控有檢舉啊那這個檢舉跟你們所謂來的接避要怎麼做區分\n455049\t467808\t民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第5會期司法及法制委員會第6會期司法及法制委員會第7會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第9會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期\n469495\t494540\t如果依照我們最後送行政院的這個草案最後一個版本的話我們是限於公部門公部門版你們只限於公部門好已經越來越清楚了好那我們再往下走其實呢這裡就一個第三個問題了受理接避單位他的保密義務因為這裡面包括私部門還有公部門好那因為你們說私部門你們都這樣我就問不下去了因為我們現在所有委員版本是不是都包含了私部門\n495871\t501175\t民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆\n525663\t528884\t民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n541621\t551427\t民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．\n559690\t577086\t那這檢舉達人當時利益是希望透過民眾的檢舉協助執法機關擴大他執法的範疇這原來用意是良好但是後來檢舉者他不能取代執法者造成甚至有專門職業的腐爛的檢舉造成民眾很大的痛苦\n577586\t583169\t民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期\n603850\t628210\t對各版本還有我們最後送行政院的版本對這種惡意或者是虛假我們事實上是有排除的是有方法的但是在不知道它是虛假之前你們會調查嗎那如果當初提供者接避者目的就是透過可能無法確定為不實的資訊在調查過程中惡意向外洩露而造成對他打擊特定部門的用意那你們怎麼樣去預防就是\n631889\t633832\t民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n647759\t656484\t民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法\n669928\t694347\t那也跟主席謝謝也跟主席請求我覺得今天排這個雞皮疙瘩保護案的討論很好這很顯然的現在我們手上有的版本相較於我們未來期望能夠來審查的版本還是有很大的缺肉是不是可以主席可以允許未來我們在這個法案在程序上多一點時間我們能夠將所有的法案都完整的納入來進行審查可以嗎\n695923\t696783\t中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案案\n","txt":"主席在堂的委員先進列席的政府機關所長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請法務部黃次長還有金管會的代表金管會代表應該是法律事務處的廖專門委員\n那跟主席反映一下,因為這個接避責法案其實有很大的部分是跟金融相關,那事前不曉得我們金管會只有事務處的專門委員成績來,覺得有點可惜啊。跟主席也反映一下。謝謝。好,謝謝。那這我會稍微思考一下。好,謝謝。那麼請教次長,我看到法務部的報告,\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華\n當然這是牽涉到立法策略的調整那當然這個是有這樣子的一個考量那當然這個都有一個歷史具體講為什麼為什麼是上市上櫃因為我們覺得說因為雙小企業太多這部分我們怕衝擊太大所以我們限縮在上市上櫃因為上市上櫃公司的財報因為私部門的部分如果涉及到公司公司數量相當多所以是不是以上市上櫃所以為什麼要請今晚會的原因那現在你們說公司分流行政立法雙委並進這是什麼意思\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n我再說一次董事本身他就在執行業務當中執行職權當中他就可以預防或者去除去公司的一些違法事項那他沒有去做這個事情他以接避的方式來提出那這樣他受保障的法理基礎在哪裡\n馬文君等17人擬具\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法\n這部分我們後續因為這部分涉及到相關的所以我們還要再具體來講齁我來具體來講來以一個案例來說齁如果某公司的董事A發現禮專B涉嫌挪用客戶資金那他本來就可以直接在董事會當中去予以查處\n或者說他可以他是要在金管會先去匿名檢舉還是在董事會當中去檢舉可能的檢討可能的內控疏失實務上來講這個我恐怕今天問到的都是問不到市長問不到市長都只能問到金管會您覺得如果現在各個版本當中以公視都涵蓋進去那麼這個董事他應該是直接向金管會匿名檢舉還是在董事會先去檢討可能的內控疏失\n這個部分的話直接向金管會匿名檢舉或者是跟董事會檢討可能的內控缺失因為他有可能兩邊都可以都可以但這個部分這只是我自己個人因為不OK好那既然是個人我們就不跟他問下去了好再往下看好來那麼再來講內機內控的法徵如何落實\n那如果不是董事像這樣的對於違法者有職務上的督導之責任比如說一個職員C發現自己的上司李專B有疑似挪用客戶的資金那如果公司已經有內部的一個法尊內機內控那他是不是應該要向先公司的法尊檢舉\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期\n如果一上是上貴版的版本的話我個人認為他應該兩兩部分都可以兩部分都可以好那往下看來我們來看一下這是金控公司他的內機內控的集合辦法那麼包括的身份資料應於保密那不應檢舉的對檢舉人於解雇我想這裡有一個問題就在你們的報告當中你們說因為我們我還沒有看到你們最新的版本你們好像是三月的時候送行政院嗎那目前有在修改嗎\n現在行政院有開過一次審查會所以可能還在變化當中還沒有還沒有還沒有出還沒有定案對那我想請問你們報告當中你們說檢舉跟這個接避要怎麼區分現在我們內機內控有檢舉啊那這個檢舉跟你們所謂來的接避要怎麼做區分\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第5會期司法及法制委員會第6會期司法及法制委員會第7會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第9會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期\n如果依照我們最後送行政院的這個草案最後一個版本的話我們是限於公部門公部門版你們只限於公部門好已經越來越清楚了好那我們再往下走其實呢這裡就一個第三個問題了受理接避單位他的保密義務因為這裡面包括私部門還有公部門好那因為你們說私部門你們都這樣我就問不下去了因為我們現在所有委員版本是不是都包含了私部門\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．\n那這檢舉達人當時利益是希望透過民眾的檢舉協助執法機關擴大他執法的範疇這原來用意是良好但是後來檢舉者他不能取代執法者造成甚至有專門職業的腐爛的檢舉造成民眾很大的痛苦\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期\n對各版本還有我們最後送行政院的版本對這種惡意或者是虛假我們事實上是有排除的是有方法的但是在不知道它是虛假之前你們會調查嗎那如果當初提供者接避者目的就是透過可能無法確定為不實的資訊在調查過程中惡意向外洩露而造成對他打擊特定部門的用意那你們怎麼樣去預防就是\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法\n那也跟主席謝謝也跟主席請求我覺得今天排這個雞皮疙瘩保護案的討論很好這很顯然的現在我們手上有的版本相較於我們未來期望能夠來審查的版本還是有很大的缺肉是不是可以主席可以允許未來我們在這個法案在程序上多一點時間我們能夠將所有的法案都完整的納入來進行審查可以嗎\n中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案案\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.373 --> 00:26.849\n主席在堂的委員先進列席的政府機關所長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請法務部黃次長還有金管會的代表金管會代表應該是法律事務處的廖專門委員\n\n00:29.161 --> 00:53.717\n那跟主席反映一下,因為這個接避責法案其實有很大的部分是跟金融相關,那事前不曉得我們金管會只有事務處的專門委員成績來,覺得有點可惜啊。跟主席也反映一下。謝謝。好,謝謝。那這我會稍微思考一下。好,謝謝。那麼請教次長,我看到法務部的報告,\n\n00:54.864 --> 01:02.607\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員\n\n01:06.254 --> 01:14.899\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華\n\n01:37.888 --> 02:07.100\n當然這是牽涉到立法策略的調整那當然這個是有這樣子的一個考量那當然這個都有一個歷史具體講為什麼為什麼是上市上櫃因為我們覺得說因為雙小企業太多這部分我們怕衝擊太大所以我們限縮在上市上櫃因為上市上櫃公司的財報因為私部門的部分如果涉及到公司公司數量相當多所以是不是以上市上櫃所以為什麼要請今晚會的原因那現在你們說公司分流行政立法雙委並進這是什麼意思\n\n02:08.080 --> 02:14.083\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆\n\n02:31.912 --> 02:36.693\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n\n03:01.758 --> 03:10.442\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員\n\n03:31.496 --> 03:35.598\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n\n04:06.115 --> 04:22.567\n我再說一次董事本身他就在執行業務當中執行職權當中他就可以預防或者去除去公司的一些違法事項那他沒有去做這個事情他以接避的方式來提出那這樣他受保障的法理基礎在哪裡\n\n04:23.968 --> 04:24.508\n馬文君等17人擬具\n\n04:43.130 --> 04:51.442\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法\n\n04:58.915 --> 05:17.009\n這部分我們後續因為這部分涉及到相關的所以我們還要再具體來講齁我來具體來講來以一個案例來說齁如果某公司的董事A發現禮專B涉嫌挪用客戶資金那他本來就可以直接在董事會當中去予以查處\n\n05:18.021 --> 05:44.498\n或者說他可以他是要在金管會先去匿名檢舉還是在董事會當中去檢舉可能的檢討可能的內控疏失實務上來講這個我恐怕今天問到的都是問不到市長問不到市長都只能問到金管會您覺得如果現在各個版本當中以公視都涵蓋進去那麼這個董事他應該是直接向金管會匿名檢舉還是在董事會先去檢討可能的內控疏失\n\n05:49.706 --> 06:06.351\n這個部分的話直接向金管會匿名檢舉或者是跟董事會檢討可能的內控缺失因為他有可能兩邊都可以都可以但這個部分這只是我自己個人因為不OK好那既然是個人我們就不跟他問下去了好再往下看好來那麼再來講內機內控的法徵如何落實\n\n06:12.293 --> 06:29.951\n那如果不是董事像這樣的對於違法者有職務上的督導之責任比如說一個職員C發現自己的上司李專B有疑似挪用客戶的資金那如果公司已經有內部的一個法尊內機內控那他是不是應該要向先公司的法尊檢舉\n\n06:31.195 --> 06:36.402\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期\n\n06:44.997 --> 07:11.636\n如果一上是上貴版的版本的話我個人認為他應該兩兩部分都可以兩部分都可以好那往下看來我們來看一下這是金控公司他的內機內控的集合辦法那麼包括的身份資料應於保密那不應檢舉的對檢舉人於解雇我想這裡有一個問題就在你們的報告當中你們說因為我們我還沒有看到你們最新的版本你們好像是三月的時候送行政院嗎那目前有在修改嗎\n\n07:13.203 --> 07:25.337\n現在行政院有開過一次審查會所以可能還在變化當中還沒有還沒有還沒有出還沒有定案對那我想請問你們報告當中你們說檢舉跟這個接避要怎麼區分現在我們內機內控有檢舉啊那這個檢舉跟你們所謂來的接避要怎麼做區分\n\n07:35.049 --> 07:47.808\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第5會期司法及法制委員會第6會期司法及法制委員會第7會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第9會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期\n\n07:49.495 --> 08:14.540\n如果依照我們最後送行政院的這個草案最後一個版本的話我們是限於公部門公部門版你們只限於公部門好已經越來越清楚了好那我們再往下走其實呢這裡就一個第三個問題了受理接避單位他的保密義務因為這裡面包括私部門還有公部門好那因為你們說私部門你們都這樣我就問不下去了因為我們現在所有委員版本是不是都包含了私部門\n\n08:15.871 --> 08:21.175\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆\n\n08:45.663 --> 08:48.884\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n\n09:01.621 --> 09:11.427\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．\n\n09:19.690 --> 09:37.086\n那這檢舉達人當時利益是希望透過民眾的檢舉協助執法機關擴大他執法的範疇這原來用意是良好但是後來檢舉者他不能取代執法者造成甚至有專門職業的腐爛的檢舉造成民眾很大的痛苦\n\n09:37.586 --> 09:43.169\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期\n\n10:03.850 --> 10:28.210\n對各版本還有我們最後送行政院的版本對這種惡意或者是虛假我們事實上是有排除的是有方法的但是在不知道它是虛假之前你們會調查嗎那如果當初提供者接避者目的就是透過可能無法確定為不實的資訊在調查過程中惡意向外洩露而造成對他打擊特定部門的用意那你們怎麼樣去預防就是\n\n10:31.889 --> 10:33.832\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n\n10:47.759 --> 10:56.484\n民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法\n\n11:09.928 --> 11:34.347\n那也跟主席謝謝也跟主席請求我覺得今天排這個雞皮疙瘩保護案的討論很好這很顯然的現在我們手上有的版本相較於我們未來期望能夠來審查的版本還是有很大的缺肉是不是可以主席可以允許未來我們在這個法案在程序上多一點時間我們能夠將所有的法案都完整的納入來進行審查可以嗎\n\n11:35.923 --> 11:36.783\n中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案案\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.373,"end":26.849,"text":"主席在堂的委員先進列席的政府機關所長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請法務部黃次長還有金管會的代表金管會代表應該是法律事務處的廖專門委員"},{"start":29.161,"end":53.717,"text":"那跟主席反映一下,因為這個接避責法案其實有很大的部分是跟金融相關,那事前不曉得我們金管會只有事務處的專門委員成績來,覺得有點可惜啊。跟主席也反映一下。謝謝。好,謝謝。那這我會稍微思考一下。好,謝謝。那麼請教次長,我看到法務部的報告,"},{"start":54.864,"end":62.607,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":66.254,"end":74.899,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華"},{"start":97.888,"end":127.1,"text":"當然這是牽涉到立法策略的調整那當然這個是有這樣子的一個考量那當然這個都有一個歷史具體講為什麼為什麼是上市上櫃因為我們覺得說因為雙小企業太多這部分我們怕衝擊太大所以我們限縮在上市上櫃因為上市上櫃公司的財報因為私部門的部分如果涉及到公司公司數量相當多所以是不是以上市上櫃所以為什麼要請今晚會的原因那現在你們說公司分流行政立法雙委並進這是什麼意思"},{"start":128.08,"end":134.083,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆"},{"start":151.912,"end":156.693,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":181.758,"end":190.442,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"},{"start":211.496,"end":215.598,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":246.115,"end":262.567,"text":"我再說一次董事本身他就在執行業務當中執行職權當中他就可以預防或者去除去公司的一些違法事項那他沒有去做這個事情他以接避的方式來提出那這樣他受保障的法理基礎在哪裡"},{"start":263.968,"end":264.508,"text":"馬文君等17人擬具"},{"start":283.13,"end":291.442,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法"},{"start":298.915,"end":317.009,"text":"這部分我們後續因為這部分涉及到相關的所以我們還要再具體來講齁我來具體來講來以一個案例來說齁如果某公司的董事A發現禮專B涉嫌挪用客戶資金那他本來就可以直接在董事會當中去予以查處"},{"start":318.021,"end":344.498,"text":"或者說他可以他是要在金管會先去匿名檢舉還是在董事會當中去檢舉可能的檢討可能的內控疏失實務上來講這個我恐怕今天問到的都是問不到市長問不到市長都只能問到金管會您覺得如果現在各個版本當中以公視都涵蓋進去那麼這個董事他應該是直接向金管會匿名檢舉還是在董事會先去檢討可能的內控疏失"},{"start":349.706,"end":366.351,"text":"這個部分的話直接向金管會匿名檢舉或者是跟董事會檢討可能的內控缺失因為他有可能兩邊都可以都可以但這個部分這只是我自己個人因為不OK好那既然是個人我們就不跟他問下去了好再往下看好來那麼再來講內機內控的法徵如何落實"},{"start":372.293,"end":389.951,"text":"那如果不是董事像這樣的對於違法者有職務上的督導之責任比如說一個職員C發現自己的上司李專B有疑似挪用客戶的資金那如果公司已經有內部的一個法尊內機內控那他是不是應該要向先公司的法尊檢舉"},{"start":391.195,"end":396.402,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":404.997,"end":431.636,"text":"如果一上是上貴版的版本的話我個人認為他應該兩兩部分都可以兩部分都可以好那往下看來我們來看一下這是金控公司他的內機內控的集合辦法那麼包括的身份資料應於保密那不應檢舉的對檢舉人於解雇我想這裡有一個問題就在你們的報告當中你們說因為我們我還沒有看到你們最新的版本你們好像是三月的時候送行政院嗎那目前有在修改嗎"},{"start":433.203,"end":445.337,"text":"現在行政院有開過一次審查會所以可能還在變化當中還沒有還沒有還沒有出還沒有定案對那我想請問你們報告當中你們說檢舉跟這個接避要怎麼區分現在我們內機內控有檢舉啊那這個檢舉跟你們所謂來的接避要怎麼做區分"},{"start":455.049,"end":467.808,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第5會期司法及法制委員會第6會期司法及法制委員會第7會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第9會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期"},{"start":469.495,"end":494.54,"text":"如果依照我們最後送行政院的這個草案最後一個版本的話我們是限於公部門公部門版你們只限於公部門好已經越來越清楚了好那我們再往下走其實呢這裡就一個第三個問題了受理接避單位他的保密義務因為這裡面包括私部門還有公部門好那因為你們說私部門你們都這樣我就問不下去了因為我們現在所有委員版本是不是都包含了私部門"},{"start":495.871,"end":501.175,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆"},{"start":525.663,"end":528.884,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":541.621,"end":551.427,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．"},{"start":559.69,"end":577.086,"text":"那這檢舉達人當時利益是希望透過民眾的檢舉協助執法機關擴大他執法的範疇這原來用意是良好但是後來檢舉者他不能取代執法者造成甚至有專門職業的腐爛的檢舉造成民眾很大的痛苦"},{"start":577.586,"end":583.169,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":603.85,"end":628.21,"text":"對各版本還有我們最後送行政院的版本對這種惡意或者是虛假我們事實上是有排除的是有方法的但是在不知道它是虛假之前你們會調查嗎那如果當初提供者接避者目的就是透過可能無法確定為不實的資訊在調查過程中惡意向外洩露而造成對他打擊特定部門的用意那你們怎麼樣去預防就是"},{"start":631.889,"end":633.832,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":647.759,"end":656.484,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法"},{"start":669.928,"end":694.347,"text":"那也跟主席謝謝也跟主席請求我覺得今天排這個雞皮疙瘩保護案的討論很好這很顯然的現在我們手上有的版本相較於我們未來期望能夠來審查的版本還是有很大的缺肉是不是可以主席可以允許未來我們在這個法案在程序上多一點時間我們能夠將所有的法案都完整的納入來進行審查可以嗎"},{"start":695.923,"end":696.783,"text":"中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案案"}]}}}}