{"id":152694,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152694","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb839dd47e69d58368082db59a0c60364e67044f11a0c4405e9097dc73d261853da6a207a82d1db15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"15:27:51 - 15:36:43","影片長度":"00:08:52","會議時間":"2024-05-20T14:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（僅詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-20","duration":532,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-20T15:36:43+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-20T15:27:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":133,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（15時27分）主席，麻煩請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：部長早，剛剛我在那邊坐著聽各個版本的修法說明，感覺上好像一群人圍著你要債耶！問題又不是你欠他們的，這就是當家困難啦！很多的指標不可以用單一的，我舉一個例子，你剛剛講到現在六都直轄市大概分配到百分之六十幾的統籌分配稅款，其他的是普通的縣市，可是你知道嗎？直轄市的總人口數占全國人口數百分之七十幾，所以你如果完全照人口數來分配，這樣地方窮的縣市就更窮了，六都分配的就更多了。","一個說法是把餅做大，就是垂直分配的問題，垂直分配又遇到很多問題，很多重大的公共建設根本就不用地方政府出錢，舉個例子，蓋高速公路、蓋機場哪裡有需要地方政府花錢？但是中央政府得出這條錢，譬如說新北市、臺北市在蓋捷運，其他很多的直轄市在蓋捷運，中央也都要出很大一筆的補助款，所以不是光用想像就拿一個數據來說這個縣市十幾年來繳了多少稅，只有分配到多少，不夠。我跟你說，他們分配的早就遠遠超過他們該拿的了，苗栗縣要反省的是，為什麼以前人事浮濫，花那麼多奇奇怪怪的錢，使得他們的財政困難，不然以前也沒有一個公式特別刁難苗栗縣，為什麼苗栗縣的財政狀況會特別的不好？難道你的公式裡面有講苗栗縣就是特別要少分嗎？恐怕不是這樣……"],["莊部長翠雲：對，都按公式……"],["吳委員秉叡：所以第一個問題是要瞭解，你個人認為在垂直分配上，中央有可能可以釋出的稅款比例，今天不講金額，而是講比例，因為講金額會隨著每一年稅收狀況不一樣而會有差別。你認為中央能夠釋出的財源大概會有哪一些範圍？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，第一個，中央要釋出財源之前，我們希望把地方的一個水平分配先把它分配好，因為中央在釋出的時候，要考慮地方的一個需求，所以它的基本財政收支差短，我們要能夠先把它彌補，所以你要先分配、要怎麼樣分配，以後再來看中央怎麼樣可以釋出多少。","如果以今天我們的一個統計來看，中央如果統籌分配稅款加上一般性補助款、加上計畫型補助款，中央已經釋出了41.4%，也就是說，全部的收入裡面中央是58.9，地方是41……"],["吳委員秉叡：但是剛剛他們不是這樣講，剛剛是說中央75、地方25，你們都在勒死他們，你們把錢都拿到中央，你在集權、集錢。"],["莊部長翠雲：那個是只有統籌分配稅款，但是如果加上一般性補助款跟計畫型補助款，事實上是遠遠……"],["吳委員秉叡：所以你要講清楚，因為今天來這邊講的人，我不敢說他講的一定是謊話，但是都講對自己有利的話，我在這裡20年了，20年來每一屆都在提財劃法，沒有一屆可以完成，無論是哪一個黨執政，原因就是在這裡，我跟澎湖的立委、我的好朋友楊曜在聊天，我問他為什麼當立委當那麼久不選澎湖縣長？他說不要開玩笑了，我們澎湖的自有財源一年才6億，當了立委，立委可以跟中央要補助款去地方，他反而認為這樣對他自己的澎湖會更有幫助，這是他的想法。所以你想想看，一個澎湖縣，假設如他說的，差不多自有財源才6億，一年光是公教人員的薪水，它絕對都付不起啦！一個縣政府基本的開銷至少要幾十億、上百億才有辦法，所以一個很大的困難是，你與地方政府雖然是夥伴關係，但是因為每一個地方政府的狀況差距非常的大，也有的地方政府經過它的努力，譬如說剛剛陳委員講的，金門因為現在金酒公司的關係，認為它是多繳了，可是金門縣政府的社會福利，就是金門縣民的社會福利，現在據統計起來，已經是全臺灣地區最好的，還有好多臺灣人想要遷戶口去金門，希望可以當金門縣民，可是還要有一些門檻才有辦法完成，我是舉這樣子的例子來說明每一個縣市的差距非常的大，你這個水平的調查，第一個要先完成調查，調查之後才能跟大家來談，大家要什麼樣的公式來分配，而你這個調查要調查多久？"],["莊部長翠雲：調查的部分已經回來了，但是差距很大，每個地方政府所提的都是對它自己有利的來做這個指標；第二個，這指標內容詳細的定義是什麼也要釐清，所以這個部分，我們看到的是，第一個，差距是很大；第二個，對於各個指標內容的詳細情形，已經要有一個具體的，而且要有一個通用性的，不是只有……"],["吳委員秉叡：你工作的……"],["莊部長翠雲：所以這個部分已經都在進一步的釐清當中。"],["吳委員秉叡：這個要趕快去進行，因為已經低到時間上很急迫……"],["莊部長翠雲：是啊！地方政府……"],["吳委員秉叡：如果行政院沒有辦法提出自己的版本，結果都被在野黨或是個別立委的版本拿出來，現在因為這樣的立法院，這樣的環境，然後在這個地方硬給你通過，你將來可是會窒礙難行喔！"],["莊部長翠雲：是，瞭解。"],["吳委員秉叡：你得考慮到這個事情，所以那個時間你得把握。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：如果要講到每一個縣市自己來發言，我以前在臺北縣政府當機要秘書的時候就講了，臺北縣是廚房，那時候的臺北市是櫥窗，我們地方煮一煮之後，送到這個櫥窗來用、來吃，剛剛我們主席也有講，新北市現在四百多萬人口，結果我們的統籌分配稅款總數比臺北市還不足，當然以我們的瞭解，這是有歷史的因素。早年統籌分配稅款的分配，是臺北市、臺灣省、高雄市三個單位先做一級地方政府的分配，後來因為精省，所以各個縣市分配的比例才調整，可是在調整的時候，臺北市跟高雄市都不讓你調，他們都要儘量維持，所以上一次在民國88年，就是1999年的修法，在非常痛苦的情況之下，臺北市、高雄市才擠出、讓出一點點，然後還是中央把餅做大才有辦法修的，我現在要問，關於這個指標，請問臺北市願意跟其他縣市用相同的指標來辦嗎？來分配嗎？還是那句老話，臺北市老是講：我們是首都，所以我們就要特別好。那是當年臺北市立委講的話，今年你辦得到嗎？我覺得這是非常大的考驗，臺北市的立委可能只有8個，但聲量很大、音量很大。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，所以我們這裡是第一個，劃一分配的紀律，就直轄市跟縣市分配的基礎要一致。另外，精進的分配機制要更細一點，不是只有人口數。"],["吳委員秉叡：如果你的意思是這樣，我當然知道如果算人口數，對新北市是最好，我的意思是說，你能夠讓臺北市不要再認為它必須要優厚、獨厚於其他的縣市嗎？這是要考驗你的地方，所以這個大家都要加油，今天如果都沒有共識的狀況之下，就要來弄這個東西，弄出來的東西是窒礙難行的，這一點我們很欽佩羅召委，他自己也瞭解這個狀況，所以他們一直希望你趕快整合，進而提出行政院版本，這一點我們是支持的，好不好？加油！謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。我們不用急，我會給大家很多的時間，甚至我剛剛跟議事人員討論，如果需要的話，也可以開公聽會來聽聽22縣市的聲音，找到一個好的方法，把餅做大，因為這個不是一定誰贏、誰輸，是大家都要贏，所以希望以和諧、理性的方式來進行。","接著下一位請陳玉珍陳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","陳超明","陳玉珍","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴惠員","王世堅"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-20"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00005","1134901_00006","1134901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（僅詢答）(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正\n草案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、\n委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 5案、(三)本院委員伍麗華\nSaidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案、 (四)本院委員陳\n玉珍等24 人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、( 五) 本院委員王鴻薇等24 人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳超明等17人\n擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴瑞\n隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等 2案、\n(八)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條\n之二條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文\n修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134901_00004"}},"transcript":{"id":"152694","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152694","tool":"pyannote","id":"152694-pyannote"},"job_id":"OgTEkmhHDJkeywlN","queued_at":"2024-05-30 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531.377, \"end\": 531.679, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 531.679, \"end\": 531.922, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"齁\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 531.922, \"end\": 532.486, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 532.486, \"end\": 532.607, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 532.607, \"end\": 532.628, \"score\": 0.001}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,129 --> 00:00:28,578\n坐著聽各位的各個版本的這個修法的那個說明感覺上好像一群人圍著你要在問題是又不是你欠他們這是當家困難很多的指標不可以用單一的我舉個例子你剛剛講到說現在六都直轄市大概分配到六十幾趴的統籌分配稅款\n\n2\n00:00:55,202 --> 00:01:08,602\n很多重大的公共建設根本就不用地方政府出錢我就一個例子蓋高速公路蓋什麼機場這哪裡有需要地方政府花錢但是中央政府得出這條錢\n\n3\n00:02:24,681 --> 00:02:45,299\n跟委員報告,第一個中央要釋出財源之前我們希望把地方的一個水平分配先把它分配好因為中央要釋出的時候要考慮地方的一個需求所以它的基本財政收支差短我們要能夠先把它彌補所以這個就是你要先分配怎麼樣分配講以後再來看怎麼樣中央釋出多少如果以今天我們的一個統計來看的話\n\n4\n00:02:46,920 --> 00:03:15,811\n中央如果統籌分配稅款加上一般性補助款加上計劃型補助款的話中央已經釋出了41.4%也就是說這樣全部的收入裡面中央是58.9地方是41.1但是剛剛他們不是這樣講喔他剛剛講說你中央75地方25你們都在勒死他們的你都錢都拿到中央你在集權集錢啦那個是只有統籌分配稅款但是如果加上一般性補助款跟計劃型補助款事實上是遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠\n\n5\n00:03:16,271 --> 00:03:34,722\n所以你要講清楚因為今天來這邊講的人我不敢說他講的一定是謊話但是都講對自己有利的話我在這裡20年啦20年來每一屆都在提這個財化法了沒有一屆可以完成無論是哪一個黨執政\n\n6\n00:03:36,343 --> 00:03:53,790\n的原因就是在這裡。我跟楊耀,澎湖的立委,我的好朋友聊天啦。他跟我說,我問他說,啊你為什麼當立委當那麼久不選澎湖縣長。他跟我講說,不要開玩笑了,我們澎湖的自有財源一年才六億啦。當那個縣長跟我當立委,\n\n7\n00:03:59,144 --> 00:04:27,989\n立委可以跟中央要的補助款去地方反而他認為這樣對他自己的澎湖要更有幫助這是他的想法所以你想想看一個澎湖縣假設他說的差不多自由財源才6億他一年光是公教人員這些的薪水他絕對都付不起啦這基本的開銷一個縣政府至少要幾十億上百億才有辦法嘛所以\n\n8\n00:04:29,264 --> 00:04:52,225\n你一個很大的困難就是說你的這個地方政府雖然是夥伴關係但是因為每一個地方政府的狀況差距非常的大也有的地方政府經過他的努力譬如說剛剛陳委員講的他們金門因為現在這經久公司的關係他認為他是多角的可是金門縣政府的社會福利\n\n9\n00:04:53,663 --> 00:05:12,310\n就金門憲民的社會福利現在據統計起來已經是全台灣地區最好的所以還有好多台灣人要簽戶口去金門希望當金門憲民可是還有一些門檻你要有一些門檻才有辦法完成我是舉這樣子的例子說每一個縣市的差距非常的大那你這個水平的這個調查\n\n10\n00:05:17,588 --> 00:05:26,198\n第一個要先完成調查嘛。調查之後才能跟大家來談。談說大家用什麼公職分配。你這個調查要調查多久?\n\n11\n00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:22,699\n這個時間上你很急迫餒。我跟你講如果你行政院沒有辦法提出自己的版本結果都被在野黨或是這個立委個別的版本拿出來然後在這個地方現在因為這樣的立法院這樣的環境他一給你通過結果你將來會自然而然行喔。你得考慮到這個事情了所以你那個時間你得把握啊。\n\n12\n00:06:41,788 --> 00:07:03,162\n剛剛我們這個主席有講啊,新北市現在400多萬人口捏,就我們的統籌分配稅款總數還比台北市還不足。那這個當然以我們的了解是有歷史因素。早年統籌分配稅款的分配是台北市、台灣省、高雄市三個單位先做一級的地方政府做分配。\n\n13\n00:07:04,142 --> 00:07:29,894\n後來因為精神所以各個縣市才分配的比例才調整可是在調整的時候台北市跟高雄市都不讓你調啊他們都要盡量維持所以上一次在民國88年就是1999年的修法在非常痛苦的情況之下台北市高雄市才擠出讓出一點點然後還是中央把柄做大才有辦法修的那我現在問如果這個指標\n\n14\n00:07:31,175 --> 00:07:45,218\n台北市願意跟其他縣市用相同的指標來辦嗎?來分配嗎?還是那句老話老是台北市老是講我們是首都所以我們就要特別好?那是當年台北市的立委講的話。那今年你辦得到嗎?我覺得這是非常大的考驗耶。台北市的立委可能只有8個,但是聲量很大、音量很大。\n\n15\n00:07:57,856 --> 00:08:14,536\n所以我們這裡第一個劃一分配的機率就直轄是跟縣市的分配基礎要一致另外分配的一個精進的一個分配機制要更細一點不是只有人口數那如果你的意思是這樣我當然知道人口數如果算人口數對新北市是最好啊那我的意思說\n\n16\n00:08:50,731 --> 00:08:52,628\n我們不用急啦齁,我會給大家\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n129\t28578\t坐著聽各位的各個版本的這個修法的那個說明感覺上好像一群人圍著你要在問題是又不是你欠他們這是當家困難很多的指標不可以用單一的我舉個例子你剛剛講到說現在六都直轄市大概分配到六十幾趴的統籌分配稅款\n29582\t54804\t吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉\n55202\t68602\t很多重大的公共建設根本就不用地方政府出錢我就一個例子蓋高速公路蓋什麼機場這哪裡有需要地方政府花錢但是中央政府得出這條錢\n70333\t85367\t吳秉叡\n85367\t114497\t吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉\n114923\t143029\t吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉\n144681\t165299\t跟委員報告,第一個中央要釋出財源之前我們希望把地方的一個水平分配先把它分配好因為中央要釋出的時候要考慮地方的一個需求所以它的基本財政收支差短我們要能夠先把它彌補所以這個就是你要先分配怎麼樣分配講以後再來看怎麼樣中央釋出多少如果以今天我們的一個統計來看的話\n166920\t195811\t中央如果統籌分配稅款加上一般性補助款加上計劃型補助款的話中央已經釋出了41.4%也就是說這樣全部的收入裡面中央是58.9地方是41.1但是剛剛他們不是這樣講喔他剛剛講說你中央75地方25你們都在勒死他們的你都錢都拿到中央你在集權集錢啦那個是只有統籌分配稅款但是如果加上一般性補助款跟計劃型補助款事實上是遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠\n196271\t214722\t所以你要講清楚因為今天來這邊講的人我不敢說他講的一定是謊話但是都講對自己有利的話我在這裡20年啦20年來每一屆都在提這個財化法了沒有一屆可以完成無論是哪一個黨執政\n216343\t233790\t的原因就是在這裡。我跟楊耀,澎湖的立委,我的好朋友聊天啦。他跟我說,我問他說,啊你為什麼當立委當那麼久不選澎湖縣長。他跟我講說,不要開玩笑了,我們澎湖的自有財源一年才六億啦。當那個縣長跟我當立委,\n239144\t267989\t立委可以跟中央要的補助款去地方反而他認為這樣對他自己的澎湖要更有幫助這是他的想法所以你想想看一個澎湖縣假設他說的差不多自由財源才6億他一年光是公教人員這些的薪水他絕對都付不起啦這基本的開銷一個縣政府至少要幾十億上百億才有辦法嘛所以\n269264\t292225\t你一個很大的困難就是說你的這個地方政府雖然是夥伴關係但是因為每一個地方政府的狀況差距非常的大也有的地方政府經過他的努力譬如說剛剛陳委員講的他們金門因為現在這經久公司的關係他認為他是多角的可是金門縣政府的社會福利\n293663\t312310\t就金門憲民的社會福利現在據統計起來已經是全台灣地區最好的所以還有好多台灣人要簽戶口去金門希望當金門憲民可是還有一些門檻你要有一些門檻才有辦法完成我是舉這樣子的例子說每一個縣市的差距非常的大那你這個水平的這個調查\n317588\t326198\t第一個要先完成調查嘛。調查之後才能跟大家來談。談說大家用什麼公職分配。你這個調查要調查多久?\n327159\t357159\t吳秉叡\n358680\t382699\t這個時間上你很急迫餒。我跟你講如果你行政院沒有辦法提出自己的版本結果都被在野黨或是這個立委個別的版本拿出來然後在這個地方現在因為這樣的立法院這樣的環境他一給你通過結果你將來會自然而然行喔。你得考慮到這個事情了所以你那個時間你得把握啊。\n383933\t401288\t吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉\n401788\t423162\t剛剛我們這個主席有講啊,新北市現在400多萬人口捏,就我們的統籌分配稅款總數還比台北市還不足。那這個當然以我們的了解是有歷史因素。早年統籌分配稅款的分配是台北市、台灣省、高雄市三個單位先做一級的地方政府做分配。\n424142\t449894\t後來因為精神所以各個縣市才分配的比例才調整可是在調整的時候台北市跟高雄市都不讓你調啊他們都要盡量維持所以上一次在民國88年就是1999年的修法在非常痛苦的情況之下台北市高雄市才擠出讓出一點點然後還是中央把柄做大才有辦法修的那我現在問如果這個指標\n451175\t465218\t台北市願意跟其他縣市用相同的指標來辦嗎?來分配嗎?還是那句老話老是台北市老是講我們是首都所以我們就要特別好?那是當年台北市的立委講的話。那今年你辦得到嗎?我覺得這是非常大的考驗耶。台北市的立委可能只有8個,但是聲量很大、音量很大。\n477856\t494536\t所以我們這裡第一個劃一分配的機率就直轄是跟縣市的分配基礎要一致另外分配的一個精進的一個分配機制要更細一點不是只有人口數那如果你的意思是這樣我當然知道人口數如果算人口數對新北市是最好啊那我的意思說\n494957\t524701\t⋯⋯⋯\n530731\t532628\t我們不用急啦齁,我會給大家\n","txt":"坐著聽各位的各個版本的這個修法的那個說明感覺上好像一群人圍著你要在問題是又不是你欠他們這是當家困難很多的指標不可以用單一的我舉個例子你剛剛講到說現在六都直轄市大概分配到六十幾趴的統籌分配稅款\n吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉\n很多重大的公共建設根本就不用地方政府出錢我就一個例子蓋高速公路蓋什麼機場這哪裡有需要地方政府花錢但是中央政府得出這條錢\n吳秉叡\n吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉\n吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉\n跟委員報告,第一個中央要釋出財源之前我們希望把地方的一個水平分配先把它分配好因為中央要釋出的時候要考慮地方的一個需求所以它的基本財政收支差短我們要能夠先把它彌補所以這個就是你要先分配怎麼樣分配講以後再來看怎麼樣中央釋出多少如果以今天我們的一個統計來看的話\n中央如果統籌分配稅款加上一般性補助款加上計劃型補助款的話中央已經釋出了41.4%也就是說這樣全部的收入裡面中央是58.9地方是41.1但是剛剛他們不是這樣講喔他剛剛講說你中央75地方25你們都在勒死他們的你都錢都拿到中央你在集權集錢啦那個是只有統籌分配稅款但是如果加上一般性補助款跟計劃型補助款事實上是遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠\n所以你要講清楚因為今天來這邊講的人我不敢說他講的一定是謊話但是都講對自己有利的話我在這裡20年啦20年來每一屆都在提這個財化法了沒有一屆可以完成無論是哪一個黨執政\n的原因就是在這裡。我跟楊耀,澎湖的立委,我的好朋友聊天啦。他跟我說,我問他說,啊你為什麼當立委當那麼久不選澎湖縣長。他跟我講說,不要開玩笑了,我們澎湖的自有財源一年才六億啦。當那個縣長跟我當立委,\n立委可以跟中央要的補助款去地方反而他認為這樣對他自己的澎湖要更有幫助這是他的想法所以你想想看一個澎湖縣假設他說的差不多自由財源才6億他一年光是公教人員這些的薪水他絕對都付不起啦這基本的開銷一個縣政府至少要幾十億上百億才有辦法嘛所以\n你一個很大的困難就是說你的這個地方政府雖然是夥伴關係但是因為每一個地方政府的狀況差距非常的大也有的地方政府經過他的努力譬如說剛剛陳委員講的他們金門因為現在這經久公司的關係他認為他是多角的可是金門縣政府的社會福利\n就金門憲民的社會福利現在據統計起來已經是全台灣地區最好的所以還有好多台灣人要簽戶口去金門希望當金門憲民可是還有一些門檻你要有一些門檻才有辦法完成我是舉這樣子的例子說每一個縣市的差距非常的大那你這個水平的這個調查\n第一個要先完成調查嘛。調查之後才能跟大家來談。談說大家用什麼公職分配。你這個調查要調查多久?\n吳秉叡\n這個時間上你很急迫餒。我跟你講如果你行政院沒有辦法提出自己的版本結果都被在野黨或是這個立委個別的版本拿出來然後在這個地方現在因為這樣的立法院這樣的環境他一給你通過結果你將來會自然而然行喔。你得考慮到這個事情了所以你那個時間你得把握啊。\n吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉\n剛剛我們這個主席有講啊,新北市現在400多萬人口捏,就我們的統籌分配稅款總數還比台北市還不足。那這個當然以我們的了解是有歷史因素。早年統籌分配稅款的分配是台北市、台灣省、高雄市三個單位先做一級的地方政府做分配。\n後來因為精神所以各個縣市才分配的比例才調整可是在調整的時候台北市跟高雄市都不讓你調啊他們都要盡量維持所以上一次在民國88年就是1999年的修法在非常痛苦的情況之下台北市高雄市才擠出讓出一點點然後還是中央把柄做大才有辦法修的那我現在問如果這個指標\n台北市願意跟其他縣市用相同的指標來辦嗎?來分配嗎?還是那句老話老是台北市老是講我們是首都所以我們就要特別好?那是當年台北市的立委講的話。那今年你辦得到嗎?我覺得這是非常大的考驗耶。台北市的立委可能只有8個,但是聲量很大、音量很大。\n所以我們這裡第一個劃一分配的機率就直轄是跟縣市的分配基礎要一致另外分配的一個精進的一個分配機制要更細一點不是只有人口數那如果你的意思是這樣我當然知道人口數如果算人口數對新北市是最好啊那我的意思說\n⋯⋯⋯\n我們不用急啦齁,我會給大家\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.129 --> 00:28.578\n坐著聽各位的各個版本的這個修法的那個說明感覺上好像一群人圍著你要在問題是又不是你欠他們這是當家困難很多的指標不可以用單一的我舉個例子你剛剛講到說現在六都直轄市大概分配到六十幾趴的統籌分配稅款\n\n00:55.202 --> 01:08.602\n很多重大的公共建設根本就不用地方政府出錢我就一個例子蓋高速公路蓋什麼機場這哪裡有需要地方政府花錢但是中央政府得出這條錢\n\n02:24.681 --> 02:45.299\n跟委員報告,第一個中央要釋出財源之前我們希望把地方的一個水平分配先把它分配好因為中央要釋出的時候要考慮地方的一個需求所以它的基本財政收支差短我們要能夠先把它彌補所以這個就是你要先分配怎麼樣分配講以後再來看怎麼樣中央釋出多少如果以今天我們的一個統計來看的話\n\n02:46.920 --> 03:15.811\n中央如果統籌分配稅款加上一般性補助款加上計劃型補助款的話中央已經釋出了41.4%也就是說這樣全部的收入裡面中央是58.9地方是41.1但是剛剛他們不是這樣講喔他剛剛講說你中央75地方25你們都在勒死他們的你都錢都拿到中央你在集權集錢啦那個是只有統籌分配稅款但是如果加上一般性補助款跟計劃型補助款事實上是遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠\n\n03:16.271 --> 03:34.722\n所以你要講清楚因為今天來這邊講的人我不敢說他講的一定是謊話但是都講對自己有利的話我在這裡20年啦20年來每一屆都在提這個財化法了沒有一屆可以完成無論是哪一個黨執政\n\n03:36.343 --> 03:53.790\n的原因就是在這裡。我跟楊耀,澎湖的立委,我的好朋友聊天啦。他跟我說,我問他說,啊你為什麼當立委當那麼久不選澎湖縣長。他跟我講說,不要開玩笑了,我們澎湖的自有財源一年才六億啦。當那個縣長跟我當立委,\n\n03:59.144 --> 04:27.989\n立委可以跟中央要的補助款去地方反而他認為這樣對他自己的澎湖要更有幫助這是他的想法所以你想想看一個澎湖縣假設他說的差不多自由財源才6億他一年光是公教人員這些的薪水他絕對都付不起啦這基本的開銷一個縣政府至少要幾十億上百億才有辦法嘛所以\n\n04:29.264 --> 04:52.225\n你一個很大的困難就是說你的這個地方政府雖然是夥伴關係但是因為每一個地方政府的狀況差距非常的大也有的地方政府經過他的努力譬如說剛剛陳委員講的他們金門因為現在這經久公司的關係他認為他是多角的可是金門縣政府的社會福利\n\n04:53.663 --> 05:12.310\n就金門憲民的社會福利現在據統計起來已經是全台灣地區最好的所以還有好多台灣人要簽戶口去金門希望當金門憲民可是還有一些門檻你要有一些門檻才有辦法完成我是舉這樣子的例子說每一個縣市的差距非常的大那你這個水平的這個調查\n\n05:17.588 --> 05:26.198\n第一個要先完成調查嘛。調查之後才能跟大家來談。談說大家用什麼公職分配。你這個調查要調查多久?\n\n05:58.680 --> 06:22.699\n這個時間上你很急迫餒。我跟你講如果你行政院沒有辦法提出自己的版本結果都被在野黨或是這個立委個別的版本拿出來然後在這個地方現在因為這樣的立法院這樣的環境他一給你通過結果你將來會自然而然行喔。你得考慮到這個事情了所以你那個時間你得把握啊。\n\n06:41.788 --> 07:03.162\n剛剛我們這個主席有講啊,新北市現在400多萬人口捏,就我們的統籌分配稅款總數還比台北市還不足。那這個當然以我們的了解是有歷史因素。早年統籌分配稅款的分配是台北市、台灣省、高雄市三個單位先做一級的地方政府做分配。\n\n07:04.142 --> 07:29.894\n後來因為精神所以各個縣市才分配的比例才調整可是在調整的時候台北市跟高雄市都不讓你調啊他們都要盡量維持所以上一次在民國88年就是1999年的修法在非常痛苦的情況之下台北市高雄市才擠出讓出一點點然後還是中央把柄做大才有辦法修的那我現在問如果這個指標\n\n07:31.175 --> 07:45.218\n台北市願意跟其他縣市用相同的指標來辦嗎?來分配嗎?還是那句老話老是台北市老是講我們是首都所以我們就要特別好?那是當年台北市的立委講的話。那今年你辦得到嗎?我覺得這是非常大的考驗耶。台北市的立委可能只有8個,但是聲量很大、音量很大。\n\n07:57.856 --> 08:14.536\n所以我們這裡第一個劃一分配的機率就直轄是跟縣市的分配基礎要一致另外分配的一個精進的一個分配機制要更細一點不是只有人口數那如果你的意思是這樣我當然知道人口數如果算人口數對新北市是最好啊那我的意思說\n\n08:50.731 --> 08:52.628\n我們不用急啦齁,我會給大家\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.129,"end":28.578,"text":"坐著聽各位的各個版本的這個修法的那個說明感覺上好像一群人圍著你要在問題是又不是你欠他們這是當家困難很多的指標不可以用單一的我舉個例子你剛剛講到說現在六都直轄市大概分配到六十幾趴的統籌分配稅款"},{"start":29.582,"end":54.804,"text":"吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉"},{"start":55.202,"end":68.602,"text":"很多重大的公共建設根本就不用地方政府出錢我就一個例子蓋高速公路蓋什麼機場這哪裡有需要地方政府花錢但是中央政府得出這條錢"},{"start":70.333,"end":85.367,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":85.367,"end":114.497,"text":"吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉"},{"start":114.923,"end":143.029,"text":"吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉"},{"start":144.681,"end":165.299,"text":"跟委員報告,第一個中央要釋出財源之前我們希望把地方的一個水平分配先把它分配好因為中央要釋出的時候要考慮地方的一個需求所以它的基本財政收支差短我們要能夠先把它彌補所以這個就是你要先分配怎麼樣分配講以後再來看怎麼樣中央釋出多少如果以今天我們的一個統計來看的話"},{"start":166.92,"end":195.811,"text":"中央如果統籌分配稅款加上一般性補助款加上計劃型補助款的話中央已經釋出了41.4%也就是說這樣全部的收入裡面中央是58.9地方是41.1但是剛剛他們不是這樣講喔他剛剛講說你中央75地方25你們都在勒死他們的你都錢都拿到中央你在集權集錢啦那個是只有統籌分配稅款但是如果加上一般性補助款跟計劃型補助款事實上是遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠"},{"start":196.271,"end":214.722,"text":"所以你要講清楚因為今天來這邊講的人我不敢說他講的一定是謊話但是都講對自己有利的話我在這裡20年啦20年來每一屆都在提這個財化法了沒有一屆可以完成無論是哪一個黨執政"},{"start":216.343,"end":233.79,"text":"的原因就是在這裡。我跟楊耀,澎湖的立委,我的好朋友聊天啦。他跟我說,我問他說,啊你為什麼當立委當那麼久不選澎湖縣長。他跟我講說,不要開玩笑了,我們澎湖的自有財源一年才六億啦。當那個縣長跟我當立委,"},{"start":239.144,"end":267.989,"text":"立委可以跟中央要的補助款去地方反而他認為這樣對他自己的澎湖要更有幫助這是他的想法所以你想想看一個澎湖縣假設他說的差不多自由財源才6億他一年光是公教人員這些的薪水他絕對都付不起啦這基本的開銷一個縣政府至少要幾十億上百億才有辦法嘛所以"},{"start":269.264,"end":292.225,"text":"你一個很大的困難就是說你的這個地方政府雖然是夥伴關係但是因為每一個地方政府的狀況差距非常的大也有的地方政府經過他的努力譬如說剛剛陳委員講的他們金門因為現在這經久公司的關係他認為他是多角的可是金門縣政府的社會福利"},{"start":293.663,"end":312.31,"text":"就金門憲民的社會福利現在據統計起來已經是全台灣地區最好的所以還有好多台灣人要簽戶口去金門希望當金門憲民可是還有一些門檻你要有一些門檻才有辦法完成我是舉這樣子的例子說每一個縣市的差距非常的大那你這個水平的這個調查"},{"start":317.588,"end":326.198,"text":"第一個要先完成調查嘛。調查之後才能跟大家來談。談說大家用什麼公職分配。你這個調查要調查多久?"},{"start":327.159,"end":357.159,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":358.68,"end":382.699,"text":"這個時間上你很急迫餒。我跟你講如果你行政院沒有辦法提出自己的版本結果都被在野黨或是這個立委個別的版本拿出來然後在這個地方現在因為這樣的立法院這樣的環境他一給你通過結果你將來會自然而然行喔。你得考慮到這個事情了所以你那個時間你得把握啊。"},{"start":383.933,"end":401.288,"text":"吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉"},{"start":401.788,"end":423.162,"text":"剛剛我們這個主席有講啊,新北市現在400多萬人口捏,就我們的統籌分配稅款總數還比台北市還不足。那這個當然以我們的了解是有歷史因素。早年統籌分配稅款的分配是台北市、台灣省、高雄市三個單位先做一級的地方政府做分配。"},{"start":424.142,"end":449.894,"text":"後來因為精神所以各個縣市才分配的比例才調整可是在調整的時候台北市跟高雄市都不讓你調啊他們都要盡量維持所以上一次在民國88年就是1999年的修法在非常痛苦的情況之下台北市高雄市才擠出讓出一點點然後還是中央把柄做大才有辦法修的那我現在問如果這個指標"},{"start":451.175,"end":465.218,"text":"台北市願意跟其他縣市用相同的指標來辦嗎?來分配嗎?還是那句老話老是台北市老是講我們是首都所以我們就要特別好?那是當年台北市的立委講的話。那今年你辦得到嗎?我覺得這是非常大的考驗耶。台北市的立委可能只有8個,但是聲量很大、音量很大。"},{"start":477.856,"end":494.536,"text":"所以我們這裡第一個劃一分配的機率就直轄是跟縣市的分配基礎要一致另外分配的一個精進的一個分配機制要更細一點不是只有人口數那如果你的意思是這樣我當然知道人口數如果算人口數對新北市是最好啊那我的意思說"},{"start":494.957,"end":524.701,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":530.731,"end":532.628,"text":"我們不用急啦齁,我會給大家"}]}}}}