{"id":152710,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152710","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4632897917ef513051496e3980f54eef9f0a51b3ad4cbe2548b0ef6176224668debf3000fae568745ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"12:19:05 - 12:22:11","影片長度":"00:03:06","會議時間":"2024-05-21T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期程序委員會第12次會議（事由：審定本院第11屆第1會期第15次會議議事日程及人民請願案）","date":"2024-05-21","duration":186,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期程序委員會第12次會議","type":"委員會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[27],"id":"委員會-11-1-27-12"},"end_time":"2024-05-21T12:22:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-21T12:19:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":981,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（12時19分）我是覺得在這邊一直講很沒有意義，但總之民眾黨又把我們的法案在程序委員會中把它抽案。我還是要再講一次，說真的，我們今天的主戰場當然是大家剛剛在國會討論的國會改革，但這個就是真正的國會改革，不是嗎？今天立法委員去中國的報准本來就是國會改革的一環，這是立法委員的自律，而自律可以分兩種，上次已經講過很多遍了，但民眾黨怎樣都聽不懂？一個叫做內部規範，一個叫做外部規範，這邊念法律的人那麼多，今天我們內部規範立法委員行為法，跟兩岸條例要怎麼規定是一點關係都沒有的。所以我還是要再講一次，我不會再針對林國成委員，我認為這都是黃國昌啦！","說什麼我們這個條文寫得不清楚、可能不明確，自己看一看，不管是花東條例還是現在我們在國會討論的國會改革方案，這個才叫不明確吧！什麼叫做反質詢？根本就不知道啊，對不對？剛剛才通過的，不是嗎？然後還有什麼？今天你在做調查的時候，把人叫過來做聽證，美國聽證是怎麼做的？美國做聽證是有證人清單、證物清單，還有什麼？還有你今天的問題有沒有prominent，請問這些東西有在現在的國會改革的法條上面嗎？沒有啊！所以定得根本就不清楚嘛！什麼事情都可以變成是藐視國會啊！如果今天真的要用藐視國會，那就可以在前面把法條的範圍做限定，限定了之後，藐視國會才會變得有意義，不是嗎？結果今天這些所有的程序保障、你們想要抄的這個國家，不管它是要以司法來認定還是第三方來認定，完全付之闕如，更不要講今天還有什麼國防外交的機密，如果今天不能問的時候，那該怎麼辦？既然是主席裁示的，主席有沒有這方面的知識？如果今天是司法介入，有沒有司法介入立法政治的問題？所以如果按照剛剛國會改革的方案，到最後會變成什麼？變成立法委員獲得有問題的資料會變得越來越多，結果呢？大家還要接續去中國。","如果我們不在這邊做規範的話，藐視國會罪通過下去，到最後會造成怎樣的一個法律上的悲劇？這其實是一個非常簡單的問題，權力本來就應該要互相制衡，如果今天真的要把這個權力放到無限大的話，立法委員自己的言論免責權應該先拿掉才對吧，對不對？不然的話，每天在直播造謠、上來發言也造謠、發聲明也造謠，有時候連上來做一個提案說明都在造謠。","這時候還不得不敬佩傅崐萁一點，因為他連提案說明都不肯，為什麼？因為他知道上來做提案說明就是丟臉嘛！禮拜四的時候，他上來說：我們禮拜五要討論什麼法案、什麼法案、什麼法案。講了5個結果錯了4個，他講了一堆是我們的法案，根本就不是他自己的法案，連自己要提的法案都不清楚，然後也沒有辦法做提案說明，這個東西才叫做應該退回程序委員會，這個才叫做應該在程序委員會抽案才對。謝謝。"],["主席：好，接下來請登記第5位張委員雅琳發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":400,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-27-12","speakers":["沈發惠","范雲","林思銘","林國成","沈伯洋","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳玉珍","林月琴","莊瑞雄","林楚茵","洪孟楷"],"page_start":337,"meetingDate":["2024-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期程序委員會第12次會議紀錄","content":"審定本院第11屆第1會期第15次會議議事日程及人民請願案","agenda_id":"1134801_00005"}},"transcript":{"id":"152710","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152710","tool":"pyannote","id":"152710-pyannote"},"job_id":"2BaNdYH78wBHccir","queued_at":"2024-05-30 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{\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,389 --> 00:00:23,986\n我是覺得在這邊一直講很沒有意義齁但總之呢這一個民眾黨呢又把我們的這個法案齁在程序委員會把它抽案齁那我還是要再講一次說真的我們今天當然主戰場齁是剛剛在國會大家討論到國會改革但這個就是真正的國會改革不是嗎你今天呢立法委員去中國的抱准這本來就是國會改革的一環這是立法委員的自律嘛\n\n2\n00:00:24,486 --> 00:00:48,242\n而自律可以分兩種上次已經講過很多遍了但民眾黨怎樣都聽不懂一個叫做內部規範一個叫做外部規範這邊念法律的人那麼多今天我們內部規範今天立法委員行為法跟你今天兩岸條例要怎麼規定是一點關係都沒有的齁所以我還是要再講一次齁我不會再針對這個林國成委員了齁我認為這都是換國常啦齁還說什麼我們這個條文寫得不清楚可能不明確\n\n3\n00:00:49,122 --> 00:01:03,650\n自己看一看不管是華東條例還是現在我們在國會討論的這一個國會改革方案這個才叫不明確吧什麼叫做反質詢根本就不知道啊對不對剛剛才通過的不是嗎然後還有什麼今天你在做調查的時候把人叫過來做聽證美國做聽證是怎麼做的\n\n4\n00:01:06,511 --> 00:01:33,099\n美國做聽證是有證人清單、證物清單還有什麼?還有你今天的問題有沒有Permanent?請問這些東西有在現在的國會改革的法條上面嗎?沒有啊所以訂的根本就不清楚嘛所以你什麼事情都可以變成是藐視國會啊如果你今天真的要藐視國會那你就可以在前面把法條的範圍做限定限定了之後藐視國會才會變得有意義不是嗎?結果今天這些所有的程序保障所有你今天想要抄的這一個國家\n\n5\n00:01:34,159 --> 00:02:00,858\n今天不管他是要司法來認定還是第三方來認定完全呼之確如更不要講說今天還有什麼國防外交的機密如果今天不能問的時候那該怎麼辦那既然是主席才是主席有沒有這方面的知識然後如果是今天司法介入有沒有司法介入立法政治的問題所以如果按照剛剛國會改革的方案到最後會變成什麼變成立法委員能夠獲得的什麼能夠獲得的有問題的資料會變得越來越多\n\n6\n00:02:03,500 --> 00:02:25,223\n結果呢大家還要接續去中國那如果我們不在這邊做規範的話那那個藐視國會罪通過下去到最後會造成怎樣的一個法律上的悲劇這其實是一個非常簡單的問題權力本來就應該要互相制衡如果今天真的要把這個權力放到無限大的話立法委員自己的言論免責權應該先拿掉才對吧\n\n7\n00:02:26,483 --> 00:02:42,089\n每天在直播造謠上來發言也造謠發聲明也造謠有時候連上來做一個提案說明都在造謠這時候我還不得不敬佩傅坤祺一點因為他連提案說明都不肯因為他知道上來做提案說明就是丟臉\n\n8\n00:02:43,826 --> 00:03:03,172\n禮拜四的時候他上來說我們禮拜五要討論什麼法案什麼法案什麼法案講了五個結果錯了四個他講了一堆是我們的法案根本就不是他自己的法案連自己要提的法案都不清楚然後也沒有辦法做提案說明這個東西才叫做應該退回程序委員會這個才叫做應該在程序委員會籌案才對謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n389\t23986\t我是覺得在這邊一直講很沒有意義齁但總之呢這一個民眾黨呢又把我們的這個法案齁在程序委員會把它抽案齁那我還是要再講一次說真的我們今天當然主戰場齁是剛剛在國會大家討論到國會改革但這個就是真正的國會改革不是嗎你今天呢立法委員去中國的抱准這本來就是國會改革的一環這是立法委員的自律嘛\n24486\t48242\t而自律可以分兩種 上次已經講過很多遍了 但民眾黨怎樣都聽不懂一個叫做內部規範 一個叫做外部規範 這邊念法律的人那麼多今天我們內部規範 今天立法委員行為法 跟你今天兩岸條例要怎麼規定是一點關係都沒有的齁所以我還是要再講一次齁 我不會再針對這個林國成委員了齁 我認為這都是換國常啦齁還說什麼我們這個條文寫得不清楚 可能不明確\n49122\t63650\t自己看一看不管是華東條例還是現在我們在國會討論的這一個國會改革方案這個才叫不明確吧什麼叫做反質詢根本就不知道啊對不對剛剛才通過的不是嗎然後還有什麼今天你在做調查的時候把人叫過來做聽證美國做聽證是怎麼做的\n66511\t93099\t美國做聽證是有證人清單、證物清單還有什麼?還有你今天的問題有沒有Permanent?請問這些東西有在現在的國會改革的法條上面嗎?沒有啊所以訂的根本就不清楚嘛所以你什麼事情都可以變成是藐視國會啊如果你今天真的要藐視國會那你就可以在前面把法條的範圍做限定限定了之後藐視國會才會變得有意義不是嗎?結果今天這些所有的程序保障所有你今天想要抄的這一個國家\n94159\t120858\t今天不管他是要司法來認定還是第三方來認定完全呼之確如更不要講說今天還有什麼國防外交的機密如果今天不能問的時候那該怎麼辦那既然是主席才是主席有沒有這方面的知識然後如果是今天司法介入有沒有司法介入立法政治的問題所以如果按照剛剛國會改革的方案到最後會變成什麼變成立法委員能夠獲得的什麼能夠獲得的有問題的資料會變得越來越多\n123500\t145223\t結果呢大家還要接續去中國那如果我們不在這邊做規範的話那那個藐視國會罪通過下去到最後會造成怎樣的一個法律上的悲劇這其實是一個非常簡單的問題權力本來就應該要互相制衡如果今天真的要把這個權力放到無限大的話立法委員自己的言論免責權應該先拿掉才對吧\n146483\t162089\t每天在直播造謠上來發言也造謠發聲明也造謠有時候連上來做一個提案說明都在造謠這時候我還不得不敬佩傅坤祺一點因為他連提案說明都不肯因為他知道上來做提案說明就是丟臉\n163826\t183172\t禮拜四的時候他上來說我們禮拜五要討論什麼法案什麼法案什麼法案講了五個結果錯了四個他講了一堆是我們的法案根本就不是他自己的法案連自己要提的法案都不清楚然後也沒有辦法做提案說明這個東西才叫做應該退回程序委員會這個才叫做應該在程序委員會籌案才對謝謝\n","txt":"我是覺得在這邊一直講很沒有意義齁但總之呢這一個民眾黨呢又把我們的這個法案齁在程序委員會把它抽案齁那我還是要再講一次說真的我們今天當然主戰場齁是剛剛在國會大家討論到國會改革但這個就是真正的國會改革不是嗎你今天呢立法委員去中國的抱准這本來就是國會改革的一環這是立法委員的自律嘛\n而自律可以分兩種 上次已經講過很多遍了 但民眾黨怎樣都聽不懂一個叫做內部規範 一個叫做外部規範 這邊念法律的人那麼多今天我們內部規範 今天立法委員行為法 跟你今天兩岸條例要怎麼規定是一點關係都沒有的齁所以我還是要再講一次齁 我不會再針對這個林國成委員了齁 我認為這都是換國常啦齁還說什麼我們這個條文寫得不清楚 可能不明確\n自己看一看不管是華東條例還是現在我們在國會討論的這一個國會改革方案這個才叫不明確吧什麼叫做反質詢根本就不知道啊對不對剛剛才通過的不是嗎然後還有什麼今天你在做調查的時候把人叫過來做聽證美國做聽證是怎麼做的\n美國做聽證是有證人清單、證物清單還有什麼?還有你今天的問題有沒有Permanent?請問這些東西有在現在的國會改革的法條上面嗎?沒有啊所以訂的根本就不清楚嘛所以你什麼事情都可以變成是藐視國會啊如果你今天真的要藐視國會那你就可以在前面把法條的範圍做限定限定了之後藐視國會才會變得有意義不是嗎?結果今天這些所有的程序保障所有你今天想要抄的這一個國家\n今天不管他是要司法來認定還是第三方來認定完全呼之確如更不要講說今天還有什麼國防外交的機密如果今天不能問的時候那該怎麼辦那既然是主席才是主席有沒有這方面的知識然後如果是今天司法介入有沒有司法介入立法政治的問題所以如果按照剛剛國會改革的方案到最後會變成什麼變成立法委員能夠獲得的什麼能夠獲得的有問題的資料會變得越來越多\n結果呢大家還要接續去中國那如果我們不在這邊做規範的話那那個藐視國會罪通過下去到最後會造成怎樣的一個法律上的悲劇這其實是一個非常簡單的問題權力本來就應該要互相制衡如果今天真的要把這個權力放到無限大的話立法委員自己的言論免責權應該先拿掉才對吧\n每天在直播造謠上來發言也造謠發聲明也造謠有時候連上來做一個提案說明都在造謠這時候我還不得不敬佩傅坤祺一點因為他連提案說明都不肯因為他知道上來做提案說明就是丟臉\n禮拜四的時候他上來說我們禮拜五要討論什麼法案什麼法案什麼法案講了五個結果錯了四個他講了一堆是我們的法案根本就不是他自己的法案連自己要提的法案都不清楚然後也沒有辦法做提案說明這個東西才叫做應該退回程序委員會這個才叫做應該在程序委員會籌案才對謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.389 --> 00:23.986\n我是覺得在這邊一直講很沒有意義齁但總之呢這一個民眾黨呢又把我們的這個法案齁在程序委員會把它抽案齁那我還是要再講一次說真的我們今天當然主戰場齁是剛剛在國會大家討論到國會改革但這個就是真正的國會改革不是嗎你今天呢立法委員去中國的抱准這本來就是國會改革的一環這是立法委員的自律嘛\n\n00:24.486 --> 00:48.242\n而自律可以分兩種上次已經講過很多遍了但民眾黨怎樣都聽不懂一個叫做內部規範一個叫做外部規範這邊念法律的人那麼多今天我們內部規範今天立法委員行為法跟你今天兩岸條例要怎麼規定是一點關係都沒有的齁所以我還是要再講一次齁我不會再針對這個林國成委員了齁我認為這都是換國常啦齁還說什麼我們這個條文寫得不清楚可能不明確\n\n00:49.122 --> 01:03.650\n自己看一看不管是華東條例還是現在我們在國會討論的這一個國會改革方案這個才叫不明確吧什麼叫做反質詢根本就不知道啊對不對剛剛才通過的不是嗎然後還有什麼今天你在做調查的時候把人叫過來做聽證美國做聽證是怎麼做的\n\n01:06.511 --> 01:33.099\n美國做聽證是有證人清單、證物清單還有什麼?還有你今天的問題有沒有Permanent?請問這些東西有在現在的國會改革的法條上面嗎?沒有啊所以訂的根本就不清楚嘛所以你什麼事情都可以變成是藐視國會啊如果你今天真的要藐視國會那你就可以在前面把法條的範圍做限定限定了之後藐視國會才會變得有意義不是嗎?結果今天這些所有的程序保障所有你今天想要抄的這一個國家\n\n01:34.159 --> 02:00.858\n今天不管他是要司法來認定還是第三方來認定完全呼之確如更不要講說今天還有什麼國防外交的機密如果今天不能問的時候那該怎麼辦那既然是主席才是主席有沒有這方面的知識然後如果是今天司法介入有沒有司法介入立法政治的問題所以如果按照剛剛國會改革的方案到最後會變成什麼變成立法委員能夠獲得的什麼能夠獲得的有問題的資料會變得越來越多\n\n02:03.500 --> 02:25.223\n結果呢大家還要接續去中國那如果我們不在這邊做規範的話那那個藐視國會罪通過下去到最後會造成怎樣的一個法律上的悲劇這其實是一個非常簡單的問題權力本來就應該要互相制衡如果今天真的要把這個權力放到無限大的話立法委員自己的言論免責權應該先拿掉才對吧\n\n02:26.483 --> 02:42.089\n每天在直播造謠上來發言也造謠發聲明也造謠有時候連上來做一個提案說明都在造謠這時候我還不得不敬佩傅坤祺一點因為他連提案說明都不肯因為他知道上來做提案說明就是丟臉\n\n02:43.826 --> 03:03.172\n禮拜四的時候他上來說我們禮拜五要討論什麼法案什麼法案什麼法案講了五個結果錯了四個他講了一堆是我們的法案根本就不是他自己的法案連自己要提的法案都不清楚然後也沒有辦法做提案說明這個東西才叫做應該退回程序委員會這個才叫做應該在程序委員會籌案才對謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.389,"end":23.986,"text":"我是覺得在這邊一直講很沒有意義齁但總之呢這一個民眾黨呢又把我們的這個法案齁在程序委員會把它抽案齁那我還是要再講一次說真的我們今天當然主戰場齁是剛剛在國會大家討論到國會改革但這個就是真正的國會改革不是嗎你今天呢立法委員去中國的抱准這本來就是國會改革的一環這是立法委員的自律嘛"},{"start":24.486,"end":48.242,"text":"而自律可以分兩種 上次已經講過很多遍了 但民眾黨怎樣都聽不懂一個叫做內部規範 一個叫做外部規範 這邊念法律的人那麼多今天我們內部規範 今天立法委員行為法 跟你今天兩岸條例要怎麼規定是一點關係都沒有的齁所以我還是要再講一次齁 我不會再針對這個林國成委員了齁 我認為這都是換國常啦齁還說什麼我們這個條文寫得不清楚 可能不明確"},{"start":49.122,"end":63.65,"text":"自己看一看不管是華東條例還是現在我們在國會討論的這一個國會改革方案這個才叫不明確吧什麼叫做反質詢根本就不知道啊對不對剛剛才通過的不是嗎然後還有什麼今天你在做調查的時候把人叫過來做聽證美國做聽證是怎麼做的"},{"start":66.511,"end":93.099,"text":"美國做聽證是有證人清單、證物清單還有什麼?還有你今天的問題有沒有Permanent?請問這些東西有在現在的國會改革的法條上面嗎?沒有啊所以訂的根本就不清楚嘛所以你什麼事情都可以變成是藐視國會啊如果你今天真的要藐視國會那你就可以在前面把法條的範圍做限定限定了之後藐視國會才會變得有意義不是嗎?結果今天這些所有的程序保障所有你今天想要抄的這一個國家"},{"start":94.159,"end":120.858,"text":"今天不管他是要司法來認定還是第三方來認定完全呼之確如更不要講說今天還有什麼國防外交的機密如果今天不能問的時候那該怎麼辦那既然是主席才是主席有沒有這方面的知識然後如果是今天司法介入有沒有司法介入立法政治的問題所以如果按照剛剛國會改革的方案到最後會變成什麼變成立法委員能夠獲得的什麼能夠獲得的有問題的資料會變得越來越多"},{"start":123.5,"end":145.223,"text":"結果呢大家還要接續去中國那如果我們不在這邊做規範的話那那個藐視國會罪通過下去到最後會造成怎樣的一個法律上的悲劇這其實是一個非常簡單的問題權力本來就應該要互相制衡如果今天真的要把這個權力放到無限大的話立法委員自己的言論免責權應該先拿掉才對吧"},{"start":146.483,"end":162.089,"text":"每天在直播造謠上來發言也造謠發聲明也造謠有時候連上來做一個提案說明都在造謠這時候我還不得不敬佩傅坤祺一點因為他連提案說明都不肯因為他知道上來做提案說明就是丟臉"},{"start":163.826,"end":183.172,"text":"禮拜四的時候他上來說我們禮拜五要討論什麼法案什麼法案什麼法案講了五個結果錯了四個他講了一堆是我們的法案根本就不是他自己的法案連自己要提的法案都不清楚然後也沒有辦法做提案說明這個東西才叫做應該退回程序委員會這個才叫做應該在程序委員會籌案才對謝謝"}]}}}}