{"id":152742,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152742","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d151cde394b4a16a349cdfe559183542c3b43bbf2d64d2017504fb69bf61eef5a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"09:12:05 - 09:24:07","影片長度":"00:12:02","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":722,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T09:24:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T09:12:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":189,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（9時12分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：蘇委員早。"],["蘇委員清泉：你來自民間，所以你應該比較靈活。"],["彭部長啓明：不敢！不敢！謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：現在開始已經不能亂講話。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：昨天已經二讀通過，亂講話會罰2萬到20萬。部長，火力發電算什麼能源？"],["彭部長啓明：火力發電算是化石燃料。"],["蘇委員清泉：化石燃料，像瓦斯，還有燒煤炭、燒汽油……"],["彭部長啓明：這些是屬於化石燃料，石油也是。"],["蘇委員清泉：核能不是綠能，好像你有這樣講，是嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：台電去年發的電比前年還發得少，但是它碳排放比增加了一點點，發電的量沒有比較多，但是排碳量更大，那是為什麼？就是石化用得多，天然氣用得多，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：對，報告委員，天然氣的排碳係數大概只有煤的一半左右，當然目前全世界的共識，要讓化石燃料在2050年，能夠把它transition 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700.717, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 700.717, \"end\": 700.937, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 700.937, \"end\": 701.037, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 701.037, \"end\": 701.638, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 701.638, \"end\": 701.858, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"球\", \"start\": 701.858, \"end\": 702.078, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 702.078, \"end\": 702.338, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 702.338, \"end\": 702.718, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 702.718, \"end\": 703.019, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 703.019, \"end\": 703.219, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"差\", \"start\": 703.219, \"end\": 703.339, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 703.339, \"end\": 703.419, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 703.419, \"end\": 703.439, \"score\": 0.012}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"蘇\"}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 705.14, \"end\": 705.24, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"泉\", \"start\": 705.24, \"end\": 705.26, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 705.26, \"end\": 705.28, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:10,523 --> 00:00:31,800\n好謝謝主席我們請部長請部長蘇委員早你來自民間所以你應該比較靈活不敢不敢謝謝你不會像這樣現在不能開始不能亂講話是昨天已經二讀通過了亂講話會滑兩萬到二十萬\n\n2\n00:00:40,569 --> 00:01:02,082\n部長火力發電算什麼能源?火力發電算是一個化石燃料就化石燃料就是瓦斯就是那個還有燒煤炭燒煤炭這個都是屬於化石燃料石油也是那核能不是力能好像你有這樣講對那現在下一張\n\n3\n00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:32,800\n這個是台電齁去年的他的電比前年還少花的少但是呢他碳排放比增加增加了一點點齁那發電的量沒比較多但是呢排碳量更大這是為什麼\n\n4\n00:01:35,377 --> 00:01:53,277\n就是石化用得多天然氣用得多嗎?是不是?部長。對,其實報告委員天然氣它的排炭係數大概就沒了一半左右那目前全世界當然都是共識就是要把化石燃料能夠在2050年能夠把它transitionaway就是過度的把它轉移\n\n5\n00:01:54,398 --> 00:02:18,695\n目前國際上也都認知天然氣算是一個橋接是一個過渡型的一種能源所以它等於是說在我們天然氣再生能源還沒有上來之前它是一個過渡型的能源希望2050年可以把它移除掉排碳民間環保團體建議每公噸收費500元那台電一年要徵收450億有這個事情嗎?\n\n6\n00:02:45,760 --> 00:03:13,514\n台電現在所以你的意思就是說我們估計的環團估計的是450億那事實上可能50億就夠了你的意思是怎樣如果說當然這個要看碳費審議會定義的價錢那我其實曾經有私底下算過如果台電要徵收這個碳費可能是300塊當然這個要看碳費審議我也會定我自己私底下算大概其實就對碳費如果他變成是額外的附加費用的話只有0.0幾塊可能就那麼點而已\n\n7\n00:03:15,435 --> 00:03:18,997\n臺電現在的財務狀況每年都要撥補一兩千億那如果再收碳費是不是電費又要漲電費半十月份又要漲電費會不會?\n\n8\n00:03:44,176 --> 00:04:10,906\n我個人認為其實轉型第一個是臺電他本身也很努力在做減碳的動作如果他的減碳計畫符合我們的這個減量的這個標準自主減量的標準的話他可以有一些折扣的所以目前我們預期這個如果臺電勝算來報告的話他有減量那麼的多的話其實比較不會受到一些影響好那我再看核電廠研議要全民同意才可能這是你講的是不是\n\n9\n00:04:11,751 --> 00:04:12,091\n上次公投\n\n10\n00:04:33,044 --> 00:04:49,268\n同意核能研議的有580幾萬票然後不同意的是410幾差了將近180萬票那個時候已經出來但是民進黨政府他就是不幹那下一張\n\n11\n00:04:50,932 --> 00:05:07,677\n這個歐美轉向用核能來簡單核能是不是利能你不同意可能大家有不同的意見那布魯塞爾他的結論就是說在往後的20年核能電廠要增加一倍那我們核三廠那邊的鄉親\n\n12\n00:05:11,292 --> 00:05:36,570\n四個鄉鎮的民意代表、主席還有鄉鎮長他們都同意原意啦所以你說全民要同意,人家就同意啦我自己做的民調差不多76%是同意但是他們要求的是回饋還有交通還有他們的醫療要有保障\n\n13\n00:05:37,526 --> 00:05:45,365\n所以你要愛跟你要愛可能不一樣那這個何山長我在那邊出生在那邊這樣一直一直一起起來齁\n\n14\n00:05:47,028 --> 00:06:08,979\n河山場我看它30年來沒有發生過重大的什麼事情都是颱風大颱風來跳跳墊每年的評比現在世界正在運作的核反應爐450幾座每年的評比都蠻前面的那河山場我常常去看\n\n15\n00:06:10,349 --> 00:06:38,066\n河山場離我們臺中市是237公里然後離對岸的湖清湖清電廠我也去看過164公里直線地址所以如果對岸出事你又要死如果可以就去那裡看空間也可以有辦法我不知道所以我們要看一個河南應該是電分配跟佈局各有不同的意見\n\n16\n00:06:39,730 --> 00:07:06,818\n好,下一張。這下一張。這個是光電。這是要騎行的。冰凍人,這裡有冰凍人,不怕手。這個是最美麗的天際線。蘇貞昌講的。前面一張。你看看。有這樣把整個山平都布料料。然後蓋到亂七八糟。你如果要去看,你就自己去看。看完你就會脫皮啦。\n\n17\n00:07:09,572 --> 00:07:22,902\n整片就這樣就這樣那這個能產生多少電我跟部長報告一下一米一米差不多一年產生130萬度有沒有多嗎所以一個河山場要幾個GW\n\n18\n00:07:38,832 --> 00:07:54,529\n所以你要看污染我是一直想你光天天把這個山河都蓋住了台灣太小啦你要像戈壁啦、內蒙古啦那個地方根本鳥無人煙的你要怎麼蓋那些大事啊加州沙漠的地方那你產生的電都用不完我們台灣這麼小\n\n19\n00:08:01,929 --> 00:08:18,674\n一天到晚在推除能、推光電然後怨聲載道、然後弊端重重這次立法院要用調閱權、要用這些權利要拿回來就是要查弊案嘛、查貪污嘛就是這麼簡單的那有什麼好爭議的這個來下一張\n\n20\n00:08:24,378 --> 00:08:36,429\n這更糟糕這個是內埔鄉老匹農場就平均到旁邊這一片臺農的地700多公頃部長你知不知道我知我看要擺個考察我們做得來好可以\n\n21\n00:08:38,311 --> 00:09:01,939\n現在要用700多公頃用400多公頃蓋關電板然後種的茶園因為沒時間啦沒時間所以現在我知道是農業部還沒有同意我不曉得環境部同意了沒能源局同意了沒這個要慎重考慮啦能產生多少電才400枚\n\n22\n00:09:04,063 --> 00:09:32,135\n4百萬沒多少電啊所以不要再去養那些光電業者現在要想好現在立法院不像以前一研討隨便你們搞一搞就可以同意不可能的事情早期把你凍到死就有所以我們要對子孫來交代再來這個就是高雄八五大陸北大陸、南大陸、屏東人在叫我\n\n23\n00:09:34,058 --> 00:09:52,694\n那是差不多一年三八六十五天齁我看要看得到的可能沒有三十天這個是平常的空屋我們以為是多漂亮的山嵐之氣齁結果都是空屋這是屏東的日常尤其是泰伍、潮州那一帶下一張\n\n24\n00:09:55,191 --> 00:10:03,298\n全球：上一張：中和、麥寮、新達港、中鋼你剛剛講的就是你要減少空污嘛這個怎麼辦?部長\n\n25\n00:10:06,358 --> 00:10:32,121\n這個的部分其實首先要以煤轉氣那這個氣會有一個過度的時間那我個人是認為還是要從這個權力發展綠能的角度來進行那剛剛委員提到屏東的這個問題我剛剛早上特別查了屏東大概1.3GW左右大概佔屏東土地面積的大概是0.4%那未來我們環境部會加強這個所謂的生態環境的減和特別是敏感的地帶或是勢力我們會全力的減和\n\n26\n00:10:32,742 --> 00:10:56,936\n他比較嚴重的就是這裡一塊、那裡一塊、這裡一塊都好像在打歌一樣啦你如果要就一片衝我好要不就這裡一塊、那裡一塊還要空水泥吞酒頭那個要怎麼回復啊胡說八道每天都在跑基層根本不可能的事情所以這個我們再慢慢的來討論你看高這屏東這樣啦\n\n27\n00:10:59,538 --> 00:11:13,087\n蘇清泉的污染源來自高雄,高雄6000多家工廠,我們屏東才1000家,結果全部都飛到這裡來,你的空污費對屏東也不太好,你的水污費對屏東也不太好,現在我還要再給你賺,好嗎?好,最後一個,醫院,你們有沒有要找衛福部談醫院的碳排?\n\n28\n00:11:21,563 --> 00:11:43,439\n我個人最近有跟邱副部長有來談這個問題因為醫院大概在4到5%對啊4到5%阿你要怎麼給醫療院所要怎麼給他們輔導阿要怎麼排檔能減少阿醫療院所因為開刀阿什麼的消毒那個一定是高的嘛全球都是4到5嘛差不多這樣\n\n29\n00:11:45,140 --> 00:11:45,280\n蘇清泉委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10523\t31800\t好謝謝主席我們請部長請部長蘇委員早你來自民間所以你應該比較靈活不敢不敢謝謝你不會像這樣現在不能開始不能亂講話是昨天已經二讀通過了亂講話會滑兩萬到二十萬\n40569\t62082\t部長火力發電算什麼能源?火力發電算是一個化石燃料就化石燃料就是瓦斯就是那個還有燒煤炭燒煤炭這個都是屬於化石燃料石油也是那核能不是力能好像你有這樣講對那現在下一張\n70360\t92800\t這個是台電齁去年的他的電比前年還少花的少但是呢他碳排放比增加增加了一點點齁那發電的量沒比較多但是呢排碳量更大這是為什麼\n95377\t113277\t就是石化用得多天然氣用得多嗎?是不是?部長。對,其實報告委員天然氣它的排炭係數大概就沒了一半左右那目前全世界當然都是共識就是要把化石燃料能夠在2050年能夠把它 transition away就是過度的把它轉移\n114398\t138695\t目前國際上也都認知天然氣算是一個橋接是一個過渡型的一種能源所以它等於是說在我們天然氣再生能源還沒有上來之前它是一個過渡型的能源希望2050年可以把它移除掉排碳民間環保團體建議每公噸收費500元那台電一年要徵收450億有這個事情嗎?\n140452\t164787\t對,對。\n165760\t193514\t台電現在所以你的意思就是說我們估計的環團估計的是450億那事實上可能50億就夠了你的意思是怎樣如果說當然這個要看碳費審議會定義的價錢那我其實曾經有私底下算過如果台電要徵收這個碳費可能是300塊當然這個要看碳費審議我也會定我自己私底下算大概其實就對碳費如果他變成是額外的附加費用的話只有0.0幾塊可能就那麼點而已\n195435\t198997\t臺電現在的財務狀況每年都要撥補一兩千億那如果再收碳費是不是電費又要漲電費半十月份又要漲電費會不會?\n224176\t250906\t我個人認為其實轉型第一個是臺電他本身也很努力在做減碳的動作如果他的減碳計畫符合我們的這個減量的這個標準自主減量的標準的話他可以有一些折扣的所以目前我們預期這個如果臺電勝算來報告的話他有減量那麼的多的話其實比較不會受到一些影響好那我再看核電廠研議要全民同意才可能這是你講的是不是\n251751\t252091\t上次公投\n273044\t289268\t同意核能研議的有580幾萬票然後不同意的是410幾差了將近180萬票那個時候已經出來但是民進黨政府他就是不幹那下一張\n290932\t307677\t這個歐美轉向用核能來簡單核能是不是利能你不同意可能大家有不同的意見那布魯塞爾他的結論就是說在往後的20年核能電廠要增加一倍那我們核三廠那邊的鄉親\n311292\t336570\t四個鄉鎮的民意代表、主席還有鄉鎮長他們都同意原意啦所以你說全民要同意,人家就同意啦我自己做的民調差不多76%是同意但是他們要求的是回饋還有交通還有他們的醫療要有保障\n337526\t345365\t所以你要愛跟你要愛可能不一樣那這個何山長我在那邊出生在那邊這樣一直一直一起起來齁\n347028\t368979\t河山場我看它30年來沒有發生過重大的什麼事情都是颱風大颱風來跳跳墊每年的評比現在世界正在運作的核反應爐450幾座每年的評比都蠻前面的那河山場我常常去看\n370349\t398066\t河山場離我們臺中市是237公里然後離對岸的湖清湖清電廠我也去看過164公里直線地址所以如果對岸出事你又要死如果可以就去那裡看空間也可以有辦法我不知道所以我們要看一個河南應該是電分配跟佈局各有不同的意見\n399730\t426818\t好,下一張。這下一張。這個是光電。這是要騎行的。冰凍人,這裡有冰凍人,不怕手。這個是最美麗的天際線。蘇貞昌講的。前面一張。你看看。有這樣把整個山平都布料料。然後蓋到亂七八糟。你如果要去看,你就自己去看。看完你就會脫皮啦。\n429572\t442902\t整片就這樣就這樣那這個能產生多少電我跟部長報告一下一米一米差不多一年產生130萬度有沒有多嗎所以一個河山場要幾個GW\n458832\t474529\t所以你要看污染我是一直想你光天天把這個山河都蓋住了台灣太小啦你要像戈壁啦、內蒙古啦那個地方根本鳥無人煙的你要怎麼蓋那些大事啊加州沙漠的地方那你產生的電都用不完我們台灣這麼小\n481929\t498674\t一天到晚在推除能、推光電然後怨聲載道、然後弊端重重這次立法院要用調閱權、要用這些權利要拿回來就是要查弊案嘛、查貪污嘛就是這麼簡單的那有什麼好爭議的這個來下一張\n504378\t516429\t這更糟糕這個是內埔鄉老匹農場就平均到旁邊這一片臺農的地700多公頃部長你知不知道我知我看要擺個考察我們做得來好可以\n518311\t541939\t現在要用700多公頃用400多公頃蓋關電板然後種的茶園因為沒時間啦沒時間所以現在我知道是農業部還沒有同意我不曉得環境部同意了沒能源局同意了沒這個要慎重考慮啦能產生多少電才400枚\n544063\t572135\t4百萬沒多少電啊所以不要再去養那些光電業者現在要想好現在立法院不像以前一研討隨便你們搞一搞就可以同意不可能的事情早期把你凍到死就有所以我們要對子孫來交代再來這個就是高雄八五大陸北大陸、南大陸、屏東人在叫我\n574058\t592694\t那是差不多一年三八六十五天齁我看要看得到的可能沒有三十天這個是平常的空屋我們以為是多漂亮的山嵐之氣齁結果都是空屋這是屏東的日常尤其是泰伍、潮州那一帶下一張\n595191\t603298\t全球：上一張：中和、麥寮、新達港、中鋼你剛剛講的就是你要減少空污嘛這個怎麼辦?部長\n606358\t632121\t這個的部分其實首先要以煤轉氣那這個氣會有一個過度的時間那我個人是認為還是要從這個權力發展綠能的角度來進行那剛剛委員提到屏東的這個問題我剛剛早上特別查了屏東大概1.3GW左右大概佔屏東土地面積的大概是0.4%那未來我們環境部會加強這個所謂的生態環境的減和特別是敏感的地帶或是勢力我們會全力的減和\n632742\t656936\t他比較嚴重的就是 這裡一塊、那裡一塊、這裡一塊都好像在打歌一樣啦你如果要就一片衝我好 要不就這裡一塊、那裡一塊還要空水泥吞酒頭 那個要怎麼回復啊胡說八道 每天都在跑基層 根本不可能的事情所以這個 我們再慢慢的來討論 你看 高 這屏東 這樣啦\n659538\t673087\t蘇清泉的污染源來自高雄,高雄6000多家工廠,我們屏東才1000家,結果全部都飛到這裡來,你的空污費對屏東也不太好,你的水污費對屏東也不太好,現在我還要再給你賺,好嗎?好,最後一個,醫院,你們有沒有要找衛福部談醫院的碳排?\n681563\t703439\t我個人最近有跟邱副部長有來談這個問題因為醫院大概在4到5%對啊4到5%阿你要怎麼給醫療院所要怎麼給他們輔導阿要怎麼排檔能減少阿醫療院所因為開刀阿什麼的消毒那個一定是高的嘛全球都是4到5嘛差不多這樣\n705140\t705280\t蘇清泉委員\n","txt":"好謝謝主席我們請部長請部長蘇委員早你來自民間所以你應該比較靈活不敢不敢謝謝你不會像這樣現在不能開始不能亂講話是昨天已經二讀通過了亂講話會滑兩萬到二十萬\n部長火力發電算什麼能源?火力發電算是一個化石燃料就化石燃料就是瓦斯就是那個還有燒煤炭燒煤炭這個都是屬於化石燃料石油也是那核能不是力能好像你有這樣講對那現在下一張\n這個是台電齁去年的他的電比前年還少花的少但是呢他碳排放比增加增加了一點點齁那發電的量沒比較多但是呢排碳量更大這是為什麼\n就是石化用得多天然氣用得多嗎?是不是?部長。對,其實報告委員天然氣它的排炭係數大概就沒了一半左右那目前全世界當然都是共識就是要把化石燃料能夠在2050年能夠把它 transition away就是過度的把它轉移\n目前國際上也都認知天然氣算是一個橋接是一個過渡型的一種能源所以它等於是說在我們天然氣再生能源還沒有上來之前它是一個過渡型的能源希望2050年可以把它移除掉排碳民間環保團體建議每公噸收費500元那台電一年要徵收450億有這個事情嗎?\n對,對。\n台電現在所以你的意思就是說我們估計的環團估計的是450億那事實上可能50億就夠了你的意思是怎樣如果說當然這個要看碳費審議會定義的價錢那我其實曾經有私底下算過如果台電要徵收這個碳費可能是300塊當然這個要看碳費審議我也會定我自己私底下算大概其實就對碳費如果他變成是額外的附加費用的話只有0.0幾塊可能就那麼點而已\n臺電現在的財務狀況每年都要撥補一兩千億那如果再收碳費是不是電費又要漲電費半十月份又要漲電費會不會?\n我個人認為其實轉型第一個是臺電他本身也很努力在做減碳的動作如果他的減碳計畫符合我們的這個減量的這個標準自主減量的標準的話他可以有一些折扣的所以目前我們預期這個如果臺電勝算來報告的話他有減量那麼的多的話其實比較不會受到一些影響好那我再看核電廠研議要全民同意才可能這是你講的是不是\n上次公投\n同意核能研議的有580幾萬票然後不同意的是410幾差了將近180萬票那個時候已經出來但是民進黨政府他就是不幹那下一張\n這個歐美轉向用核能來簡單核能是不是利能你不同意可能大家有不同的意見那布魯塞爾他的結論就是說在往後的20年核能電廠要增加一倍那我們核三廠那邊的鄉親\n四個鄉鎮的民意代表、主席還有鄉鎮長他們都同意原意啦所以你說全民要同意,人家就同意啦我自己做的民調差不多76%是同意但是他們要求的是回饋還有交通還有他們的醫療要有保障\n所以你要愛跟你要愛可能不一樣那這個何山長我在那邊出生在那邊這樣一直一直一起起來齁\n河山場我看它30年來沒有發生過重大的什麼事情都是颱風大颱風來跳跳墊每年的評比現在世界正在運作的核反應爐450幾座每年的評比都蠻前面的那河山場我常常去看\n河山場離我們臺中市是237公里然後離對岸的湖清湖清電廠我也去看過164公里直線地址所以如果對岸出事你又要死如果可以就去那裡看空間也可以有辦法我不知道所以我們要看一個河南應該是電分配跟佈局各有不同的意見\n好,下一張。這下一張。這個是光電。這是要騎行的。冰凍人,這裡有冰凍人,不怕手。這個是最美麗的天際線。蘇貞昌講的。前面一張。你看看。有這樣把整個山平都布料料。然後蓋到亂七八糟。你如果要去看,你就自己去看。看完你就會脫皮啦。\n整片就這樣就這樣那這個能產生多少電我跟部長報告一下一米一米差不多一年產生130萬度有沒有多嗎所以一個河山場要幾個GW\n所以你要看污染我是一直想你光天天把這個山河都蓋住了台灣太小啦你要像戈壁啦、內蒙古啦那個地方根本鳥無人煙的你要怎麼蓋那些大事啊加州沙漠的地方那你產生的電都用不完我們台灣這麼小\n一天到晚在推除能、推光電然後怨聲載道、然後弊端重重這次立法院要用調閱權、要用這些權利要拿回來就是要查弊案嘛、查貪污嘛就是這麼簡單的那有什麼好爭議的這個來下一張\n這更糟糕這個是內埔鄉老匹農場就平均到旁邊這一片臺農的地700多公頃部長你知不知道我知我看要擺個考察我們做得來好可以\n現在要用700多公頃用400多公頃蓋關電板然後種的茶園因為沒時間啦沒時間所以現在我知道是農業部還沒有同意我不曉得環境部同意了沒能源局同意了沒這個要慎重考慮啦能產生多少電才400枚\n4百萬沒多少電啊所以不要再去養那些光電業者現在要想好現在立法院不像以前一研討隨便你們搞一搞就可以同意不可能的事情早期把你凍到死就有所以我們要對子孫來交代再來這個就是高雄八五大陸北大陸、南大陸、屏東人在叫我\n那是差不多一年三八六十五天齁我看要看得到的可能沒有三十天這個是平常的空屋我們以為是多漂亮的山嵐之氣齁結果都是空屋這是屏東的日常尤其是泰伍、潮州那一帶下一張\n全球：上一張：中和、麥寮、新達港、中鋼你剛剛講的就是你要減少空污嘛這個怎麼辦?部長\n這個的部分其實首先要以煤轉氣那這個氣會有一個過度的時間那我個人是認為還是要從這個權力發展綠能的角度來進行那剛剛委員提到屏東的這個問題我剛剛早上特別查了屏東大概1.3GW左右大概佔屏東土地面積的大概是0.4%那未來我們環境部會加強這個所謂的生態環境的減和特別是敏感的地帶或是勢力我們會全力的減和\n他比較嚴重的就是 這裡一塊、那裡一塊、這裡一塊都好像在打歌一樣啦你如果要就一片衝我好 要不就這裡一塊、那裡一塊還要空水泥吞酒頭 那個要怎麼回復啊胡說八道 每天都在跑基層 根本不可能的事情所以這個 我們再慢慢的來討論 你看 高 這屏東 這樣啦\n蘇清泉的污染源來自高雄,高雄6000多家工廠,我們屏東才1000家,結果全部都飛到這裡來,你的空污費對屏東也不太好,你的水污費對屏東也不太好,現在我還要再給你賺,好嗎?好,最後一個,醫院,你們有沒有要找衛福部談醫院的碳排?\n我個人最近有跟邱副部長有來談這個問題因為醫院大概在4到5%對啊4到5%阿你要怎麼給醫療院所要怎麼給他們輔導阿要怎麼排檔能減少阿醫療院所因為開刀阿什麼的消毒那個一定是高的嘛全球都是4到5嘛差不多這樣\n蘇清泉委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.523 --> 00:31.800\n好謝謝主席我們請部長請部長蘇委員早你來自民間所以你應該比較靈活不敢不敢謝謝你不會像這樣現在不能開始不能亂講話是昨天已經二讀通過了亂講話會滑兩萬到二十萬\n\n00:40.569 --> 01:02.082\n部長火力發電算什麼能源?火力發電算是一個化石燃料就化石燃料就是瓦斯就是那個還有燒煤炭燒煤炭這個都是屬於化石燃料石油也是那核能不是力能好像你有這樣講對那現在下一張\n\n01:10.360 --> 01:32.800\n這個是台電齁去年的他的電比前年還少花的少但是呢他碳排放比增加增加了一點點齁那發電的量沒比較多但是呢排碳量更大這是為什麼\n\n01:35.377 --> 01:53.277\n就是石化用得多天然氣用得多嗎?是不是?部長。對,其實報告委員天然氣它的排炭係數大概就沒了一半左右那目前全世界當然都是共識就是要把化石燃料能夠在2050年能夠把它transitionaway就是過度的把它轉移\n\n01:54.398 --> 02:18.695\n目前國際上也都認知天然氣算是一個橋接是一個過渡型的一種能源所以它等於是說在我們天然氣再生能源還沒有上來之前它是一個過渡型的能源希望2050年可以把它移除掉排碳民間環保團體建議每公噸收費500元那台電一年要徵收450億有這個事情嗎?\n\n02:45.760 --> 03:13.514\n台電現在所以你的意思就是說我們估計的環團估計的是450億那事實上可能50億就夠了你的意思是怎樣如果說當然這個要看碳費審議會定義的價錢那我其實曾經有私底下算過如果台電要徵收這個碳費可能是300塊當然這個要看碳費審議我也會定我自己私底下算大概其實就對碳費如果他變成是額外的附加費用的話只有0.0幾塊可能就那麼點而已\n\n03:15.435 --> 03:18.997\n臺電現在的財務狀況每年都要撥補一兩千億那如果再收碳費是不是電費又要漲電費半十月份又要漲電費會不會?\n\n03:44.176 --> 04:10.906\n我個人認為其實轉型第一個是臺電他本身也很努力在做減碳的動作如果他的減碳計畫符合我們的這個減量的這個標準自主減量的標準的話他可以有一些折扣的所以目前我們預期這個如果臺電勝算來報告的話他有減量那麼的多的話其實比較不會受到一些影響好那我再看核電廠研議要全民同意才可能這是你講的是不是\n\n04:11.751 --> 04:12.091\n上次公投\n\n04:33.044 --> 04:49.268\n同意核能研議的有580幾萬票然後不同意的是410幾差了將近180萬票那個時候已經出來但是民進黨政府他就是不幹那下一張\n\n04:50.932 --> 05:07.677\n這個歐美轉向用核能來簡單核能是不是利能你不同意可能大家有不同的意見那布魯塞爾他的結論就是說在往後的20年核能電廠要增加一倍那我們核三廠那邊的鄉親\n\n05:11.292 --> 05:36.570\n四個鄉鎮的民意代表、主席還有鄉鎮長他們都同意原意啦所以你說全民要同意,人家就同意啦我自己做的民調差不多76%是同意但是他們要求的是回饋還有交通還有他們的醫療要有保障\n\n05:37.526 --> 05:45.365\n所以你要愛跟你要愛可能不一樣那這個何山長我在那邊出生在那邊這樣一直一直一起起來齁\n\n05:47.028 --> 06:08.979\n河山場我看它30年來沒有發生過重大的什麼事情都是颱風大颱風來跳跳墊每年的評比現在世界正在運作的核反應爐450幾座每年的評比都蠻前面的那河山場我常常去看\n\n06:10.349 --> 06:38.066\n河山場離我們臺中市是237公里然後離對岸的湖清湖清電廠我也去看過164公里直線地址所以如果對岸出事你又要死如果可以就去那裡看空間也可以有辦法我不知道所以我們要看一個河南應該是電分配跟佈局各有不同的意見\n\n06:39.730 --> 07:06.818\n好,下一張。這下一張。這個是光電。這是要騎行的。冰凍人,這裡有冰凍人,不怕手。這個是最美麗的天際線。蘇貞昌講的。前面一張。你看看。有這樣把整個山平都布料料。然後蓋到亂七八糟。你如果要去看,你就自己去看。看完你就會脫皮啦。\n\n07:09.572 --> 07:22.902\n整片就這樣就這樣那這個能產生多少電我跟部長報告一下一米一米差不多一年產生130萬度有沒有多嗎所以一個河山場要幾個GW\n\n07:38.832 --> 07:54.529\n所以你要看污染我是一直想你光天天把這個山河都蓋住了台灣太小啦你要像戈壁啦、內蒙古啦那個地方根本鳥無人煙的你要怎麼蓋那些大事啊加州沙漠的地方那你產生的電都用不完我們台灣這麼小\n\n08:01.929 --> 08:18.674\n一天到晚在推除能、推光電然後怨聲載道、然後弊端重重這次立法院要用調閱權、要用這些權利要拿回來就是要查弊案嘛、查貪污嘛就是這麼簡單的那有什麼好爭議的這個來下一張\n\n08:24.378 --> 08:36.429\n這更糟糕這個是內埔鄉老匹農場就平均到旁邊這一片臺農的地700多公頃部長你知不知道我知我看要擺個考察我們做得來好可以\n\n08:38.311 --> 09:01.939\n現在要用700多公頃用400多公頃蓋關電板然後種的茶園因為沒時間啦沒時間所以現在我知道是農業部還沒有同意我不曉得環境部同意了沒能源局同意了沒這個要慎重考慮啦能產生多少電才400枚\n\n09:04.063 --> 09:32.135\n4百萬沒多少電啊所以不要再去養那些光電業者現在要想好現在立法院不像以前一研討隨便你們搞一搞就可以同意不可能的事情早期把你凍到死就有所以我們要對子孫來交代再來這個就是高雄八五大陸北大陸、南大陸、屏東人在叫我\n\n09:34.058 --> 09:52.694\n那是差不多一年三八六十五天齁我看要看得到的可能沒有三十天這個是平常的空屋我們以為是多漂亮的山嵐之氣齁結果都是空屋這是屏東的日常尤其是泰伍、潮州那一帶下一張\n\n09:55.191 --> 10:03.298\n全球：上一張：中和、麥寮、新達港、中鋼你剛剛講的就是你要減少空污嘛這個怎麼辦?部長\n\n10:06.358 --> 10:32.121\n這個的部分其實首先要以煤轉氣那這個氣會有一個過度的時間那我個人是認為還是要從這個權力發展綠能的角度來進行那剛剛委員提到屏東的這個問題我剛剛早上特別查了屏東大概1.3GW左右大概佔屏東土地面積的大概是0.4%那未來我們環境部會加強這個所謂的生態環境的減和特別是敏感的地帶或是勢力我們會全力的減和\n\n10:32.742 --> 10:56.936\n他比較嚴重的就是這裡一塊、那裡一塊、這裡一塊都好像在打歌一樣啦你如果要就一片衝我好要不就這裡一塊、那裡一塊還要空水泥吞酒頭那個要怎麼回復啊胡說八道每天都在跑基層根本不可能的事情所以這個我們再慢慢的來討論你看高這屏東這樣啦\n\n10:59.538 --> 11:13.087\n蘇清泉的污染源來自高雄,高雄6000多家工廠,我們屏東才1000家,結果全部都飛到這裡來,你的空污費對屏東也不太好,你的水污費對屏東也不太好,現在我還要再給你賺,好嗎?好,最後一個,醫院,你們有沒有要找衛福部談醫院的碳排?\n\n11:21.563 --> 11:43.439\n我個人最近有跟邱副部長有來談這個問題因為醫院大概在4到5%對啊4到5%阿你要怎麼給醫療院所要怎麼給他們輔導阿要怎麼排檔能減少阿醫療院所因為開刀阿什麼的消毒那個一定是高的嘛全球都是4到5嘛差不多這樣\n\n11:45.140 --> 11:45.280\n蘇清泉委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.523,"end":31.8,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請部長請部長蘇委員早你來自民間所以你應該比較靈活不敢不敢謝謝你不會像這樣現在不能開始不能亂講話是昨天已經二讀通過了亂講話會滑兩萬到二十萬"},{"start":40.569,"end":62.082,"text":"部長火力發電算什麼能源?火力發電算是一個化石燃料就化石燃料就是瓦斯就是那個還有燒煤炭燒煤炭這個都是屬於化石燃料石油也是那核能不是力能好像你有這樣講對那現在下一張"},{"start":70.36,"end":92.8,"text":"這個是台電齁去年的他的電比前年還少花的少但是呢他碳排放比增加增加了一點點齁那發電的量沒比較多但是呢排碳量更大這是為什麼"},{"start":95.377,"end":113.277,"text":"就是石化用得多天然氣用得多嗎?是不是?部長。對,其實報告委員天然氣它的排炭係數大概就沒了一半左右那目前全世界當然都是共識就是要把化石燃料能夠在2050年能夠把它 transition away就是過度的把它轉移"},{"start":114.398,"end":138.695,"text":"目前國際上也都認知天然氣算是一個橋接是一個過渡型的一種能源所以它等於是說在我們天然氣再生能源還沒有上來之前它是一個過渡型的能源希望2050年可以把它移除掉排碳民間環保團體建議每公噸收費500元那台電一年要徵收450億有這個事情嗎?"},{"start":140.452,"end":164.787,"text":"對,對。"},{"start":165.76,"end":193.514,"text":"台電現在所以你的意思就是說我們估計的環團估計的是450億那事實上可能50億就夠了你的意思是怎樣如果說當然這個要看碳費審議會定義的價錢那我其實曾經有私底下算過如果台電要徵收這個碳費可能是300塊當然這個要看碳費審議我也會定我自己私底下算大概其實就對碳費如果他變成是額外的附加費用的話只有0.0幾塊可能就那麼點而已"},{"start":195.435,"end":198.997,"text":"臺電現在的財務狀況每年都要撥補一兩千億那如果再收碳費是不是電費又要漲電費半十月份又要漲電費會不會?"},{"start":224.176,"end":250.906,"text":"我個人認為其實轉型第一個是臺電他本身也很努力在做減碳的動作如果他的減碳計畫符合我們的這個減量的這個標準自主減量的標準的話他可以有一些折扣的所以目前我們預期這個如果臺電勝算來報告的話他有減量那麼的多的話其實比較不會受到一些影響好那我再看核電廠研議要全民同意才可能這是你講的是不是"},{"start":251.751,"end":252.091,"text":"上次公投"},{"start":273.044,"end":289.268,"text":"同意核能研議的有580幾萬票然後不同意的是410幾差了將近180萬票那個時候已經出來但是民進黨政府他就是不幹那下一張"},{"start":290.932,"end":307.677,"text":"這個歐美轉向用核能來簡單核能是不是利能你不同意可能大家有不同的意見那布魯塞爾他的結論就是說在往後的20年核能電廠要增加一倍那我們核三廠那邊的鄉親"},{"start":311.292,"end":336.57,"text":"四個鄉鎮的民意代表、主席還有鄉鎮長他們都同意原意啦所以你說全民要同意,人家就同意啦我自己做的民調差不多76%是同意但是他們要求的是回饋還有交通還有他們的醫療要有保障"},{"start":337.526,"end":345.365,"text":"所以你要愛跟你要愛可能不一樣那這個何山長我在那邊出生在那邊這樣一直一直一起起來齁"},{"start":347.028,"end":368.979,"text":"河山場我看它30年來沒有發生過重大的什麼事情都是颱風大颱風來跳跳墊每年的評比現在世界正在運作的核反應爐450幾座每年的評比都蠻前面的那河山場我常常去看"},{"start":370.349,"end":398.066,"text":"河山場離我們臺中市是237公里然後離對岸的湖清湖清電廠我也去看過164公里直線地址所以如果對岸出事你又要死如果可以就去那裡看空間也可以有辦法我不知道所以我們要看一個河南應該是電分配跟佈局各有不同的意見"},{"start":399.73,"end":426.818,"text":"好,下一張。這下一張。這個是光電。這是要騎行的。冰凍人,這裡有冰凍人,不怕手。這個是最美麗的天際線。蘇貞昌講的。前面一張。你看看。有這樣把整個山平都布料料。然後蓋到亂七八糟。你如果要去看,你就自己去看。看完你就會脫皮啦。"},{"start":429.572,"end":442.902,"text":"整片就這樣就這樣那這個能產生多少電我跟部長報告一下一米一米差不多一年產生130萬度有沒有多嗎所以一個河山場要幾個GW"},{"start":458.832,"end":474.529,"text":"所以你要看污染我是一直想你光天天把這個山河都蓋住了台灣太小啦你要像戈壁啦、內蒙古啦那個地方根本鳥無人煙的你要怎麼蓋那些大事啊加州沙漠的地方那你產生的電都用不完我們台灣這麼小"},{"start":481.929,"end":498.674,"text":"一天到晚在推除能、推光電然後怨聲載道、然後弊端重重這次立法院要用調閱權、要用這些權利要拿回來就是要查弊案嘛、查貪污嘛就是這麼簡單的那有什麼好爭議的這個來下一張"},{"start":504.378,"end":516.429,"text":"這更糟糕這個是內埔鄉老匹農場就平均到旁邊這一片臺農的地700多公頃部長你知不知道我知我看要擺個考察我們做得來好可以"},{"start":518.311,"end":541.939,"text":"現在要用700多公頃用400多公頃蓋關電板然後種的茶園因為沒時間啦沒時間所以現在我知道是農業部還沒有同意我不曉得環境部同意了沒能源局同意了沒這個要慎重考慮啦能產生多少電才400枚"},{"start":544.063,"end":572.135,"text":"4百萬沒多少電啊所以不要再去養那些光電業者現在要想好現在立法院不像以前一研討隨便你們搞一搞就可以同意不可能的事情早期把你凍到死就有所以我們要對子孫來交代再來這個就是高雄八五大陸北大陸、南大陸、屏東人在叫我"},{"start":574.058,"end":592.694,"text":"那是差不多一年三八六十五天齁我看要看得到的可能沒有三十天這個是平常的空屋我們以為是多漂亮的山嵐之氣齁結果都是空屋這是屏東的日常尤其是泰伍、潮州那一帶下一張"},{"start":595.191,"end":603.298,"text":"全球：上一張：中和、麥寮、新達港、中鋼你剛剛講的就是你要減少空污嘛這個怎麼辦?部長"},{"start":606.358,"end":632.121,"text":"這個的部分其實首先要以煤轉氣那這個氣會有一個過度的時間那我個人是認為還是要從這個權力發展綠能的角度來進行那剛剛委員提到屏東的這個問題我剛剛早上特別查了屏東大概1.3GW左右大概佔屏東土地面積的大概是0.4%那未來我們環境部會加強這個所謂的生態環境的減和特別是敏感的地帶或是勢力我們會全力的減和"},{"start":632.742,"end":656.936,"text":"他比較嚴重的就是 這裡一塊、那裡一塊、這裡一塊都好像在打歌一樣啦你如果要就一片衝我好 要不就這裡一塊、那裡一塊還要空水泥吞酒頭 那個要怎麼回復啊胡說八道 每天都在跑基層 根本不可能的事情所以這個 我們再慢慢的來討論 你看 高 這屏東 這樣啦"},{"start":659.538,"end":673.087,"text":"蘇清泉的污染源來自高雄,高雄6000多家工廠,我們屏東才1000家,結果全部都飛到這裡來,你的空污費對屏東也不太好,你的水污費對屏東也不太好,現在我還要再給你賺,好嗎?好,最後一個,醫院,你們有沒有要找衛福部談醫院的碳排?"},{"start":681.563,"end":703.439,"text":"我個人最近有跟邱副部長有來談這個問題因為醫院大概在4到5%對啊4到5%阿你要怎麼給醫療院所要怎麼給他們輔導阿要怎麼排檔能減少阿醫療院所因為開刀阿什麼的消毒那個一定是高的嘛全球都是4到5嘛差不多這樣"},{"start":705.14,"end":705.28,"text":"蘇清泉委員"}]}}}}