{"id":152780,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152780","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d13232be33b0c273149cdfe559183542c3b43bbf2d64d20178a5713b642961ecf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:14:04 - 10:26:12","影片長度":"00:12:08","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":728,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T10:26:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T10:14:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":467,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時14分）謝謝主席，我們是不是有請部長？"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員早。"],["王委員育敏：彭部長，恭喜你來就任環境部部長的位置。一方面是恭喜，一方面也為你有一點小擔憂，主要是環境部的業務就像你剛剛的報告，其實面向非常的廣，那您過去其實是氣象達人、氣象專家，大家都非常熟悉，對於其他面向你比較不瞭解的部分，可能就是你要花更多時間跟力氣來迎頭趕上。我不曉得你從上任到現在有沒有感覺到有一種被追趕的壓力？"],["彭部長啓明：的確，每天半夜都會醒過來。"],["王委員育敏：半夜醒過來喔！"],["彭部長啓明：因為要懂的還有很多、很多，要跟我們同仁多學習。"],["王委員育敏：對，在衛環的幾項業務當中，我覺得環境部相對是比較深奧、比較專業、比較難懂，但是還是希望你可以好好睡覺，因為有好的體力才可以應付立法院的質詢。第一個，本席要請教你的是考古題，事實上，我也問過上一任的部長，我同樣要來請教你。如果我們仔細去看臺灣的這些碳排，你可以發現，事實上，它一直都沒有辦法有效的減少。我知道您過去也參加過氣候變遷大會，其實氣候變遷大會對於各國都有一些碳排的要求，但是臺灣一直都沒有達標，這個你應該也清楚。我想請教你的第一個問題就是，如果歷任的部長都做不到的部分，那今天賴清德總統重用你，您要用什麼樣的方法有效的去降低碳排？您當時在民間有參加過氣候變遷大會，你從一個旁觀者的角度看到為什麼我們臺灣的碳排沒有辦法有效的減少？今天你在部長的這個位置上，你覺得最關鍵的因素在哪裡？你要怎麼樣去解決這個問題？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為我個人本身不是從官僚體系出身，民間也有很多的意見，那這個意見也謝謝總統或是院長他們都看到了。所以找我來做的工作就是像你所說的，我要來解決這個問題。關於這個問題，我必須很坦誠的說，這不是只有環境部的事，所以我的角色是會進行多種的跨部會合作，希望大家一起來談，因為這不只是我環境部的責任，我是在末端算碳排的責任，所以這個是要大家各個部會一起來承擔。因為卓院長也有這樣的很高的認知，所以目前他的確是給我很大的支持度，就讓我放手來做這個事情，也請委員給我支持、給我鼓勵。"],["王委員育敏：好，那你剛剛講到一個重點，就是環境部有沒有辦法去指揮其他的部會，要求他們來配合？這個的確是一個長期的問題。接下來我讓你看這一張，在我們現在的碳排裡面，運輸部門的碳排是不減反增。交通部是一個大部會，交通政策沒有淨零、有碳排，在2022年它這個運輸的部分還超越了工業，你將來要怎麼跟交通部針對這個部分來解決？你剛剛說總統跟院長特別希望你由民間來到公部門體系就是要解決問題的，但是過去我們看到在行政院裡面部會是平行的，請問一個環境部部長怎麼樣來要求交通部應該要配合環境部的政策？過去的部長是做不到的。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為我來自民間，所以比較有彈性，對我來說，政府就是一體的，在這段期間，雖然我還沒上任，我也跟很多的部長談我們可不可以來合作？而我的確是彎下腰來希望跨部會進行多一點合作。當然，這個東西都需要大家雙方的努力，光靠我一個人沒有辦法。基本上，不是只有交通，還包含農業，甚至醫療等等，全部都是跨部會的，所以我沒有辦法自己一個人就可以跟大家承諾要淨零碳排，所以我的確會更多的彎下腰來跟大家一起合作，希望大家來看看那個數字，達成這樣的目標。"],["王委員育敏：如果是這樣子，其實應該讓你在更高的位置。"],["彭部長啓明：不敢、不敢。"],["王委員育敏：就是政委的層級才可以協調部會、要求部會配合你啊！因為在公部門就是這樣，各部會都是平行單位，其實誰也不聽誰的，環境部其他官員的感受應該很深。大家一起開會，大家都一樣大，交通部長也可能覺得交通部比環境部大，因為交通部是大部啊！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，根據我的經驗，權力的大小不是來自於官位，而是來自於你的熱忱跟影響力，所以我會積極地去做，希望我持續在明年還有這樣的熱情，我會努力啦！"],["王委員育敏：好，我們看到一個樂觀的部長。"],["彭部長啓明：我是正向的啦！"],["王委員育敏：對，我知道，部長看起來非常的樂觀，但是其實你回去可以告訴卓院長，就是這件事情如果要辦得成，他以一個行政院院長之姿，他可能還要派一個政委來協助你，就是你們必須連成一條線，才有力量去讓其他的部會鬆動、配合，這件事情不是樂觀就可以達成的，我不知道誰是負責環境部的政委，是哪一位？"],["彭部長啓明：目前還沒有……"],["王委員育敏：還沒有確定？"],["彭部長啓明：但是我覺得卓院長對我是非常的支持。"],["王委員育敏：卓院長不能只是口頭支持，我覺得行政資源加上一位政委的力量，而且他自己恐怕要召開一次會議，把部長叫來，正式告訴他說，這件事他就是授權環境部！未來如何去降低交通運輸部門的碳排，由環境部來做主責單位，各部會應該要配合！這個是告訴部長，你可以回去要求的，這樣你才會有實權，以後開的會才會有效益，要不然都是開一開就算了，人家真的不會聽你的，這個是你要有的現實感，這是非常重要的。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["王委員育敏：所以這個部分請你就是……我覺得你有樂觀的態度，願意溝通的精神很好，但是在行政部門講求的是權力，那個權力還是很重要，要有真正的授權。","另外一個是你自己就可以決定的，碳費的制度延宕到現在沒有答案！上一個部長我問他，他沒有答案！您是新任的部長，我想問你，你自己有沒有一個真正具體的目標？環境部可以自己作決定嗎？涉及到中小企業就還是得看經濟部的臉色？因為這件事情曾經一度停擺，而且媒體還傳出來，不見得是明年要上路，可以一延再延。我不知道部長，賴總統或是卓院長有沒有賦予你明確的目標？還是遇到經濟部就得要轉彎？如果有反彈，中小企業統統都反彈，那這件事情連一步都跨不出去！因為你的審議委員會不敢去碰觸定價的問題，到目前為止開好像沒有開。事實上你們早就有腹案了，我對前一個部長也是這樣子講，早就有腹案卻不敢端出來，因為企業都還有意見，那這部分你要怎麼處理？這是你手上就可以處理的，你敢不敢把車開出去？"],["彭部長啓明：我從我的立場來想，這個車一定要趕快開，縱使影子價格，就是零也可以開，我認為這是最重要的。因為這裡面還有很多細節要處理，所以我個人是支持一定要趕快進行。不過我也跟委員報告，目前的制度，當時氣候變遷因應法設下的規定，我沒有辦法決定多少錢啦！如果我可以決定，我可能下個月就告訴你了，所以目前我是遵照過去碳費設計的制度來進行的，我絕對會請我的次長能夠加快，因為他是主席，會加快地來開這個會。"],["王委員育敏：對，因為部長換新的，次長沒有換，次長上一次就是再延宕了。次長，新的部長來，你會加速你的進度嗎？不同的部長，你會有不同的作為嗎？"],["施次長文真：跟委員報告，因為政策不論是哪一個部長，我們整體的政策就是依法來執行。要再跟委員報告的是說，我們前三次的會議確實沒有涉及到費率的討論。"],["王委員育敏：是，不敢碰。"],["施次長文真：因為我們做制度的介紹，我們下一次的會現在在調查，6月底跟7月初，我們這一次就依照委員的建議，我們有把各種不同的費率在不同層級的衝擊評估，要一起做一個完整的報告，讓費率審議會的委員們來參考、來進行討論。"],["王委員育敏：所以確定下一次會議就會觸及到費率的問題？"],["施次長文真：下一次會有評估方案讓委員們可以提供建議。"],["王委員育敏：好，現在最大的阻力是什麼？企業的反彈，對不對？"],["施次長文真：因為我們委員們的組成，包括了企業，也包了不同的部門，還有包括民間團體和專家學者，所以我覺得在討論的過程當中其實各界對於碳費制度的期待，我們都會一起考慮進去，也不見得只有企業，其實民間團體也有很多的想法。"],["王委員育敏：那為什麼之前一度傳出，可能明年也不會上路？你有看到這個新聞嗎？"],["施次長文真：有，因為新聞有……"],["王委員育敏：那是誰定調的？不是環境部，是更高層？"],["施次長文真：這個……"],["彭部長啓明：沒有。"],["施次長文真：好像沒有……"],["王委員育敏：那怎麼會傳出這個消息？我看到，你有看到吧？"],["施次長文真：有，每一個報紙都有。"],["王委員育敏：對。"],["施次長文真：有看到。"],["王委員育敏：那是從哪裡來？"],["施次長文真：因為我們沒有接到這個政策……"],["王委員育敏：會不會是經濟部自己講的？"],["彭部長啓明：不會，這個是我們決定的。"],["王委員育敏：你們決定的嘛！你們的人都沒有講？是媒體自己……那個假消息是從哪裡來的？"],["彭部長啓明：不過跟委員報告，其實從我們過去的經驗、參加COP會議的經驗，其實碳費只是一個工具，還有別的，所以我也跟我們同仁講，我們要跟先進好的國家學習，例如說新加坡或是日本等等，他們有一些配套的措施。所以碳費只不過是碳定價的一個工具而已，我希望在我的任內，可以積極發展多元的工具，促進減量，那個量可以減下去才是關鍵。"],["王委員育敏：當然！量減下去才是關鍵，但是為什麼當時大家會覺得碳費必須制定不可？因為它就是一個強而有力的工具，逼著大家你非減不可，要不然你要付出比較高昂的成本，所以這件事情，我覺得考驗著我們彭部長的決心，就是說，會不會做得成，這個就是你在環境部部長這個位置要不要留下一個歷史上的紀錄，這個看你自己怎麼樣做選擇。因為如果再一次放軟、退縮，然後沒有期程，那這個大家就會覺得換什麼部長其實都一樣，我們臺灣沒有一個強悍的部長，為了這個減碳就是強力執行到底，所以彭部長，你的歷史定位，在碳費的這件事情上面，它其實還滿關鍵的，希望你新職上任，一切可以順利，但是環境部真的不是那麼好做。"],["彭部長啓明：我知道。"],["王委員育敏：它必須展現一定的、執政的公權力，因為你很多時候都要面對四面八方希望你退讓的，但是你怎麼樣堅定地展現你的公權力，同時你又有柔軟的身段去溝通，最後達成你要的目標，我覺得是一個滿大的挑戰，希望你可以成功。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王育敏委員。在這邊作一下宣告，等一下在鄭委員天財質詢結束，休息10分鐘。","現在請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳菁徽","王正旭","涂權吉","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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\"事實上他一直都沒有辦法有效的減少所以我知道您過去也參加過氣候變遷大會那氣候變遷大會其實對於各國都有一些碳排的要求的其實台灣一直都沒有達標這個你應該也清楚\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 82.202, \"end\": 82.462, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 82.462, \"end\": 82.783, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 82.783, \"end\": 83.023, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 83.023, \"end\": 83.163, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 83.163, \"end\": 83.343, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 83.343, \"end\": 83.483, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 83.483, \"end\": 83.583, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 83.583, \"end\": 83.884, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 83.884, \"end\": 84.104, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 84.104, \"end\": 84.364, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"效\", \"start\": 84.364, \"end\": 84.705, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 84.705, \"end\": 85.766, \"score\": 0.964}, 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{\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 701.426, \"end\": 701.586, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 701.586, \"end\": 701.606, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"王\", \"start\": 704.225, \"end\": 704.385, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"育\", \"start\": 704.385, \"end\": 704.546, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"敏\", \"start\": 704.546, \"end\": 704.566, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,685 --> 00:00:30,074\n謝謝主席,我們是不是有請部長?請彭部長。委員長,謝謝。彭部長恭喜來就任環境部部長的位置。一方面是恭喜,一方面也為你有一點小擔憂。主要是環境部你剛剛的報告其實面相非常的廣。那您過去其實是氣象達人、氣象專家,大家都非常熟悉。\n\n2\n00:00:31,314 --> 00:00:58,934\n對於其他的面相可能比較不了解的部分這可能就是你要花更多時間跟力氣迎頭趕上的我不曉得你上任到現在有沒有感覺到這一個被追趕的壓力的確每天都半夜會醒過來半夜醒過來因為要懂得還要很多很多要跟我們同仁多學習對因為就本席在未還的幾項業務當中我覺得環境部相對是比較深奧\n\n3\n00:00:59,734 --> 00:01:10,538\n就是比較專業比較難懂的所以但是還是希望你可以好好睡覺因為好的體力這個可以應付立法院這樣的一個質詢那第一個本期要請教的是考古題這個事實上我也問過上一任的部長我同樣要來請教你就是如果我們仔細去看臺灣的這一些碳排的話你可以發現\n\n4\n00:01:22,202 --> 00:01:38,859\n事實上他一直都沒有辦法有效的減少所以我知道您過去也參加過氣候變遷大會那氣候變遷大會其實對於各國都有一些碳排的要求的其實台灣一直都沒有達標這個你應該也清楚\n\n5\n00:01:39,434 --> 00:01:53,841\n那第一個我想請教你的就是如果歷任的部長都做不到的部分那今天賴清德總統重用你您要用什麼樣的方法有效的去降低這個碳排\n\n6\n00:01:55,445 --> 00:02:13,558\n您覺得您當時在民間你參加過這些氣候變遷大會也看到你從一個比較旁觀者看到臺灣為什麼我們的碳排沒有辦法有效的減少那今天你做到部長這個位置了你覺得最關鍵的因素在哪裡你要怎麼樣去解決這樣的一個問題\n\n7\n00:02:14,979 --> 00:02:27,336\n報告委員因為我個人本身不是從官僚體系出生民間也有很多的意見那這個意見也謝謝總統或是院長他們都看到了所以找我來的工作就是你所說的我要來解決這個問題那這個問題必須很坦誠的說\n\n8\n00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:54,468\n不是只有環境部的事所以我的角色我會進行多種的跨部會的合作希望大家一起來談這不是我環境部的責任我是末端算碳排的責任所以這個要大家各個部會一起來承擔那目前卓院長也有這樣的很大的認知所以目前他的確是給我很大的支持度就讓我放手來做這個事情也請委員給我支持給我鼓勵\n\n9\n00:02:56,289 --> 00:03:21,182\n你剛講到一個重點就是說環境部有沒有辦法去指揮其他的部會要求他們來配合這個的確是長期的一個問題接下來我讓你看這一張在我們現在的碳排裡面光運輸部門的碳排是不減反增交通部是大部會交通政策沒有淨零有碳排\n\n10\n00:03:22,611 --> 00:03:25,158\n這個部分他的運輸他的部分還超越了工業在2022年那單就這個部分\n\n11\n00:03:30,475 --> 00:03:55,351\n你將來要怎麼跟交通部針對這個部分來解決你剛剛說總統跟院長特別希望你由民間來到公部門體系就是要解決問題的但是過去我們看到在行政院裡面部會是平行的請問一個環境部部長怎麼樣來要求交通部應該要來配合環境部的政策過去的部長是做不到的\n\n12\n00:03:55,976 --> 00:04:16,665\n報告委員因為我來自民間比較有彈性我對我來說政府就是一起的所以我的確在這段時間雖然我還沒上任我也跟很多的部長談說我們可不可以來合作所以我的確是彎下腰來希望跨部會進行多一點合作那當然啦這個東西都需要大家雙方的努力光靠我一個人沒有辦法所以基本上\n\n13\n00:04:17,165 --> 00:04:33,204\n不管不是只有交通還包含農業甚至醫療等等全部都是跨部會的所以我沒有辦法說我一個人就可以跟大家承諾要進行碳排所以我的確會彎下腰更多的彎下腰來跟大家一起來合作希望大家來看看那個數字達成這樣的目標\n\n14\n00:04:34,246 --> 00:04:56,018\n那如果這樣子其實應該賦予你更高的位置我不敢不敢就是政委層級的才可以協調部會要求部會配合你因為因為部會之間在公部門就是這樣大家都平行單位其實誰也不聽誰那個環境部其他官員應該感受很深大家開會打擾八大就是交通部長可能覺得他還比環境部大\n\n15\n00:04:56,838 --> 00:05:22,719\n因為交通部是大部啊報告委員我的經驗是我的權力不是權力的大小不是來自於官位而是來自於你的熱忱跟影響力所以我會積極的去做希望我還持續明年還有這樣的熱情啦我會努力啦好我們看到一個樂觀的部長我是正向的啦對我知道看起來這個部長非常的樂觀但是其實你回去可以告訴卓院長就是說這件事情如果要辦得成他\n\n16\n00:05:24,620 --> 00:05:41,728\n以一個行政院院長之職他可能還要派一個政委來協助你就你們必須連成一條線才有力量去讓其他的部會鬆動配合這件事情不是樂觀就可以達成的如果他沒有因為我不知道誰是負責環境部的政委是哪一位\n\n17\n00:05:42,328 --> 00:06:09,513\n目前還沒有但是我覺得卓院長對我是非常的支持對那卓院長不能只是口頭支持我覺得行政資源跟加上一位政委的力量而且他自己恐怕要召開一次會議把部長叫來正式告訴他說這件事他就是授權環境部未來如何去降低交通運輸部門的碳排由環境部來做主責單位各部會應該要配合這個是\n\n18\n00:06:12,313 --> 00:06:33,845\n告訴部長你可以回去要求的這樣你才會有實權以後開的會才會有效益要不然都是開一開就算了就人家真的不會聽你的這個是你要有這樣的現實感這個是非常重要的所以這個部分呢請你就是我覺得你有樂觀的態度願意溝通的精神很好但是在行政部門裡面講求的是權力\n\n19\n00:06:34,929 --> 00:06:51,641\n那個權利還是很重要有真正的授權那另外一個是你自己就可以決定的碳費的制度延宕到現在沒有答案那上一個部長我問他他沒有答案您是新任的部長我想問你\n\n20\n00:06:52,361 --> 00:07:21,601\n你自己有沒有一個真正具體的目標環境部可以自己做決定嗎還是涉及到中小企業還是得看經濟部的臉色因為這件事情曾經一度就停擺而且媒體還傳出來不見得是明年要上路可以一言再言那我不知道這個部長賴總統或者是卓院長有沒有賦予你明確的目標還是遇到經濟部還是得要轉彎如果有反彈\n\n21\n00:07:22,621 --> 00:07:50,519\n中小企業通通都反彈那這件事情連一步都跨不出去因為你的審議委員會不敢去碰觸定價的問題到目前為止開好像沒有開事實上你們早就有復案了我對前一個前一個部長是這樣子講早就有復案是不敢端出來因為這個企業都還有意見那這部分你要怎麼處理這是你手上就可以處理的你敢不敢把車開出去\n\n22\n00:07:51,516 --> 00:08:10,517\n從我的立場來講這個車一定要趕快開縱使影子價格0也可以開我是認為這是最重要的因為這裡面還有很多細節要處理所以我個人是支持說一定要趕快進行不過我也跟委員報告目前的制度當時氣候衛生面積因法設下的規定我沒有辦法決定多少錢\n\n23\n00:08:11,238 --> 00:08:32,915\n如果我可以決定我可能下個月就告訴你了所以目前我是遵照過去碳費設計的這個制度來進行那我絕對請我的次長能夠加快因為他是主席會加快的能夠來開這個會對那因為部長換新的次長沒有換嘛齁那次長上一次就就在延宕了那次長新的部長來你會加速你的進度嗎不同的部長你會有不同的作為嗎\n\n24\n00:08:36,242 --> 00:08:41,387\n跟我們報告啦因為其實政策我們不論是哪一個部長我們整體的政策就是依法來執行\n\n25\n00:08:42,383 --> 00:09:04,928\n那在跟委員報告是說我們前三次的會確實沒有涉及到費率的討論因為我們做制度的介紹那我們下一次的會現在在調查6月底跟7月初那我們這一次就依照委員的建議我們有把各種不同的費率在不同層級的衝擊評估要一起做一個完整的報告讓費率審議會的委員們來參考\n\n26\n00:09:07,308 --> 00:09:17,542\n然後來進行討論所以確定下一次會議就會觸及到對立的問題下一次會有這個評估方案讓委員們可以提供建議那現在最大的阻力是什麼\n\n27\n00:09:18,260 --> 00:09:46,416\n企業的反彈對不對因為我們委員們的組成有包括企業有包括不同的部門還有包括民間團體跟專家學者所以我覺得在討論的過程當中其實各界會對於碳費制度的期待我們都會一起考慮進去也不見得是只有企業其實民間團體也有很多的但為什麼之前一度傳出來說可能明年也不會上路你有看到這個新聞嗎有有因為新聞那是誰定調的\n\n28\n00:09:48,376 --> 00:10:06,632\n不是環境部?是更高層?沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有\n\n29\n00:10:07,294 --> 00:10:21,688\n不會。這個是我們決定的。你們決定的嘛。你們人都沒有講。那媒體自己...那個假消息從哪裡來的?我跟委員報告,其實從我們這個過去的經驗在COVA會議的經驗其實碳費只是一個工具。\n\n30\n00:10:22,368 --> 00:10:41,359\n還有別的所以我其實也跟我們同仁講我們要跟先進好的國家學習例如說新加坡或是日本等等他們有一些配套的措施所以碳費只不過是碳定價一個工具而已所以我希望我在我的任內我可以積極發展多元的工具促進減量那個量可以減下去才是關鍵\n\n31\n00:10:42,393 --> 00:10:55,554\n當然量減下去才是關鍵但是為什麼當時大家會覺得碳費必須制定不可因為它就是一個強而有力的工具逼著大家你非減不可要不然你要付出比較高昂的成本\n\n32\n00:10:56,195 --> 00:10:59,257\n所以這件事情我覺得考驗著我們彭部長的決心就是說會不會做得成這個就是你在環境部部長這個位置要不要留下一個歷史上的紀錄這個看你自己怎麼樣做選擇因為如果災是放軟退縮然後沒有其成\n\n33\n00:11:16,528 --> 00:11:41,606\n那這個大家就覺得換什麼部長其實都一樣我們台灣沒有一個強悍的部長為了這一個減碳就是強力執行到底所以這個彭部長你的這個歷史定位在碳費的這件事情上面他其實還蠻關鍵的希望你這個新職上任一切可以順利但是環境部真的不是那麼好做他必須展現一定的執政的\n\n34\n00:11:44,225 --> 00:11:44,566\n王育敏\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5685\t30074\t謝謝主席,我們是不是有請部長?請彭部長。委員長,謝謝。彭部長恭喜來就任環境部部長的位置。一方面是恭喜,一方面也為你有一點小擔憂。主要是環境部你剛剛的報告其實面相非常的廣。那您過去其實是氣象達人、氣象專家,大家都非常熟悉。\n31314\t58934\t對於其他的面相可能比較不了解的部分這可能就是你要花更多時間跟力氣迎頭趕上的我不曉得你上任到現在有沒有感覺到這一個被追趕的壓力的確每天都半夜會醒過來半夜醒過來因為要懂得還要很多很多要跟我們同仁多學習對因為就本席在未還的幾項業務當中我覺得環境部相對是比較深奧\n59734\t70538\t就是比較專業比較難懂的所以但是還是希望你可以好好睡覺因為好的體力這個可以應付立法院這樣的一個質詢那第一個本期要請教的是考古題這個事實上我也問過上一任的部長我同樣要來請教你就是如果我們仔細去看臺灣的這一些碳排的話你可以發現\n82202\t98859\t事實上他一直都沒有辦法有效的減少所以我知道您過去也參加過氣候變遷大會那氣候變遷大會其實對於各國都有一些碳排的要求的其實台灣一直都沒有達標這個你應該也清楚\n99434\t113841\t那第一個我想請教你的就是如果歷任的部長都做不到的部分那今天賴清德總統重用你您要用什麼樣的方法有效的去降低這個碳排\n115445\t133558\t您覺得您當時在民間你參加過這些氣候變遷大會也看到你從一個比較旁觀者看到臺灣為什麼我們的碳排沒有辦法有效的減少那今天你做到部長這個位置了你覺得最關鍵的因素在哪裡你要怎麼樣去解決這樣的一個問題\n134979\t147336\t報告委員因為我個人本身不是從官僚體系出生民間也有很多的意見那這個意見也謝謝總統或是院長他們都看到了所以找我來的工作就是你所說的我要來解決這個問題那這個問題必須很坦誠的說\n150680\t174468\t不是只有環境部的事所以我的角色我會進行多種的跨部會的合作希望大家一起來談這不是我環境部的責任我是末端算碳排的責任所以這個要大家各個部會一起來承擔那目前卓院長也有這樣的很大的認知所以目前他的確是給我很大的支持度就讓我放手來做這個事情也請委員給我支持給我鼓勵\n176289\t201182\t你剛講到一個重點就是說環境部有沒有辦法去指揮其他的部會要求他們來配合這個的確是長期的一個問題接下來我讓你看這一張在我們現在的碳排裡面光運輸部門的碳排是不減反增交通部是大部會交通政策沒有淨零有碳排\n202611\t205158\t這個部分他的運輸他的部分還超越了工業在2022年那單就這個部分\n210475\t235351\t你將來要怎麼跟交通部針對這個部分來解決你剛剛說總統跟院長特別希望你由民間來到公部門體系就是要解決問題的但是過去我們看到在行政院裡面部會是平行的請問一個環境部部長怎麼樣來要求交通部應該要來配合環境部的政策過去的部長是做不到的\n235976\t256665\t報告委員因為我來自民間比較有彈性我對我來說政府就是一起的所以我的確在這段時間雖然我還沒上任我也跟很多的部長談說我們可不可以來合作所以我的確是彎下腰來希望跨部會進行多一點合作那當然啦這個東西都需要大家雙方的努力光靠我一個人沒有辦法所以基本上\n257165\t273204\t不管不是只有交通還包含農業甚至醫療等等全部都是跨部會的所以我沒有辦法說我一個人就可以跟大家承諾要進行碳排所以我的確會彎下腰更多的彎下腰來跟大家一起來合作希望大家來看看那個數字達成這樣的目標\n274246\t296018\t那如果這樣子其實應該賦予你更高的位置我不敢不敢就是政委層級的才可以協調部會要求部會配合你因為因為部會之間在公部門就是這樣大家都平行單位其實誰也不聽誰那個環境部其他官員應該感受很深大家開會打擾八大就是交通部長可能覺得他還比環境部大\n296838\t322719\t因為交通部是大部啊報告委員我的經驗是我的權力不是權力的大小不是來自於官位而是來自於你的熱忱跟影響力所以我會積極的去做希望我還持續明年還有這樣的熱情啦我會努力啦好我們看到一個樂觀的部長我是正向的啦對我知道看起來這個部長非常的樂觀但是其實你回去可以告訴卓院長就是說這件事情如果要辦得成他\n324620\t341728\t以一個行政院院長之職他可能還要派一個政委來協助你就你們必須連成一條線才有力量去讓其他的部會鬆動配合這件事情不是樂觀就可以達成的如果他沒有因為我不知道誰是負責環境部的政委是哪一位\n342328\t369513\t目前還沒有但是我覺得卓院長對我是非常的支持對那卓院長不能只是口頭支持我覺得行政資源跟加上一位政委的力量而且他自己恐怕要召開一次會議把部長叫來正式告訴他說這件事他就是授權環境部未來如何去降低交通運輸部門的碳排由環境部來做主責單位各部會應該要配合這個是\n372313\t393845\t告訴部長你可以回去要求的這樣你才會有實權以後開的會才會有效益要不然都是開一開就算了就人家真的不會聽你的這個是你要有這樣的現實感這個是非常重要的所以這個部分呢請你就是我覺得你有樂觀的態度願意溝通的精神很好但是在行政部門裡面講求的是權力\n394929\t411641\t那個權利還是很重要有真正的授權那另外一個是你自己就可以決定的碳費的制度延宕到現在沒有答案那上一個部長我問他他沒有答案您是新任的部長我想問你\n412361\t441601\t你自己有沒有一個真正具體的目標環境部可以自己做決定嗎還是涉及到中小企業還是得看經濟部的臉色因為這件事情曾經一度就停擺而且媒體還傳出來不見得是明年要上路可以一言再言那我不知道這個部長賴總統或者是卓院長有沒有賦予你明確的目標還是遇到經濟部還是得要轉彎如果有反彈\n442621\t470519\t中小企業通通都反彈那這件事情連一步都跨不出去因為你的審議委員會不敢去碰觸定價的問題到目前為止開好像沒有開事實上你們早就有復案了我對前一個前一個部長是這樣子講早就有復案是不敢端出來因為這個企業都還有意見那這部分你要怎麼處理這是你手上就可以處理的你敢不敢把車開出去\n471516\t490517\t從我的立場來講 這個車一定要趕快開 縱使影子價格0也可以開 我是認為這是最重要的 因為這裡面還有很多細節要處理 所以我個人是支持說一定要趕快進行不過我也跟委員報告 目前的制度 當時氣候衛生面積因法設下的規定 我沒有辦法決定多少錢\n491238\t512915\t如果我可以決定我可能下個月就告訴你了所以目前我是遵照過去碳費設計的這個制度來進行那我絕對請我的次長能夠加快因為他是主席會加快的能夠來開這個會對那因為部長換新的次長沒有換嘛齁那次長上一次就就在延宕了那次長新的部長來你會加速你的進度嗎不同的部長你會有不同的作為嗎\n516242\t521387\t跟我們報告啦因為其實政策我們不論是哪一個部長我們整體的政策就是依法來執行\n522383\t544928\t那在跟委員報告是說我們前三次的會確實沒有涉及到費率的討論因為我們做制度的介紹 那我們下一次的會現在在調查6月底跟7月初那我們這一次就依照委員的建議我們有把各種不同的費率在不同層級的衝擊評估要一起做一個完整的報告讓費率審議會的委員們來參考\n547308\t557542\t然後來進行討論所以確定下一次會議就會觸及到對立的問題下一次會有這個評估方案讓委員們可以提供建議那現在最大的阻力是什麼\n558260\t586416\t企業的反彈對不對因為我們委員們的組成有包括企業有包括不同的部門還有包括民間團體跟專家學者所以我覺得在討論的過程當中其實各界會對於碳費制度的期待我們都會一起考慮進去也不見得是只有企業其實民間團體也有很多的但為什麼之前一度傳出來說可能明年也不會上路你有看到這個新聞嗎有有因為新聞那是誰定調的\n588376\t606632\t不是環境部?是更高層?沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有\n607294\t621688\t不會。這個是我們決定的。你們決定的嘛。你們人都沒有講。那媒體自己...那個假消息從哪裡來的?我跟委員報告,其實從我們這個過去的經驗在COVA會議的經驗其實碳費只是一個工具。\n622368\t641359\t還有別的所以我其實也跟我們同仁講我們要跟先進好的國家學習例如說新加坡或是日本等等他們有一些配套的措施所以碳費只不過是碳定價一個工具而已所以我希望我在我的任內我可以積極發展多元的工具促進減量那個量可以減下去才是關鍵\n642393\t655554\t當然量減下去才是關鍵但是為什麼當時大家會覺得碳費必須制定不可因為它就是一個強而有力的工具逼著大家你非減不可要不然你要付出比較高昂的成本\n656195\t659257\t所以這件事情我覺得考驗著我們彭部長的決心就是說會不會做得成這個就是你在環境部部長這個位置要不要留下一個歷史上的紀錄這個看你自己怎麼樣做選擇因為如果災是放軟退縮然後沒有其成\n676528\t701606\t那這個大家就覺得換什麼部長其實都一樣我們台灣沒有一個強悍的部長為了這一個減碳就是強力執行到底所以這個彭部長你的這個歷史定位在碳費的這件事情上面他其實還蠻關鍵的希望你這個新職上任一切可以順利但是環境部真的不是那麼好做他必須展現一定的執政的\n704225\t704566\t王育敏\n","txt":"謝謝主席,我們是不是有請部長?請彭部長。委員長,謝謝。彭部長恭喜來就任環境部部長的位置。一方面是恭喜,一方面也為你有一點小擔憂。主要是環境部你剛剛的報告其實面相非常的廣。那您過去其實是氣象達人、氣象專家,大家都非常熟悉。\n對於其他的面相可能比較不了解的部分這可能就是你要花更多時間跟力氣迎頭趕上的我不曉得你上任到現在有沒有感覺到這一個被追趕的壓力的確每天都半夜會醒過來半夜醒過來因為要懂得還要很多很多要跟我們同仁多學習對因為就本席在未還的幾項業務當中我覺得環境部相對是比較深奧\n就是比較專業比較難懂的所以但是還是希望你可以好好睡覺因為好的體力這個可以應付立法院這樣的一個質詢那第一個本期要請教的是考古題這個事實上我也問過上一任的部長我同樣要來請教你就是如果我們仔細去看臺灣的這一些碳排的話你可以發現\n事實上他一直都沒有辦法有效的減少所以我知道您過去也參加過氣候變遷大會那氣候變遷大會其實對於各國都有一些碳排的要求的其實台灣一直都沒有達標這個你應該也清楚\n那第一個我想請教你的就是如果歷任的部長都做不到的部分那今天賴清德總統重用你您要用什麼樣的方法有效的去降低這個碳排\n您覺得您當時在民間你參加過這些氣候變遷大會也看到你從一個比較旁觀者看到臺灣為什麼我們的碳排沒有辦法有效的減少那今天你做到部長這個位置了你覺得最關鍵的因素在哪裡你要怎麼樣去解決這樣的一個問題\n報告委員因為我個人本身不是從官僚體系出生民間也有很多的意見那這個意見也謝謝總統或是院長他們都看到了所以找我來的工作就是你所說的我要來解決這個問題那這個問題必須很坦誠的說\n不是只有環境部的事所以我的角色我會進行多種的跨部會的合作希望大家一起來談這不是我環境部的責任我是末端算碳排的責任所以這個要大家各個部會一起來承擔那目前卓院長也有這樣的很大的認知所以目前他的確是給我很大的支持度就讓我放手來做這個事情也請委員給我支持給我鼓勵\n你剛講到一個重點就是說環境部有沒有辦法去指揮其他的部會要求他們來配合這個的確是長期的一個問題接下來我讓你看這一張在我們現在的碳排裡面光運輸部門的碳排是不減反增交通部是大部會交通政策沒有淨零有碳排\n這個部分他的運輸他的部分還超越了工業在2022年那單就這個部分\n你將來要怎麼跟交通部針對這個部分來解決你剛剛說總統跟院長特別希望你由民間來到公部門體系就是要解決問題的但是過去我們看到在行政院裡面部會是平行的請問一個環境部部長怎麼樣來要求交通部應該要來配合環境部的政策過去的部長是做不到的\n報告委員因為我來自民間比較有彈性我對我來說政府就是一起的所以我的確在這段時間雖然我還沒上任我也跟很多的部長談說我們可不可以來合作所以我的確是彎下腰來希望跨部會進行多一點合作那當然啦這個東西都需要大家雙方的努力光靠我一個人沒有辦法所以基本上\n不管不是只有交通還包含農業甚至醫療等等全部都是跨部會的所以我沒有辦法說我一個人就可以跟大家承諾要進行碳排所以我的確會彎下腰更多的彎下腰來跟大家一起來合作希望大家來看看那個數字達成這樣的目標\n那如果這樣子其實應該賦予你更高的位置我不敢不敢就是政委層級的才可以協調部會要求部會配合你因為因為部會之間在公部門就是這樣大家都平行單位其實誰也不聽誰那個環境部其他官員應該感受很深大家開會打擾八大就是交通部長可能覺得他還比環境部大\n因為交通部是大部啊報告委員我的經驗是我的權力不是權力的大小不是來自於官位而是來自於你的熱忱跟影響力所以我會積極的去做希望我還持續明年還有這樣的熱情啦我會努力啦好我們看到一個樂觀的部長我是正向的啦對我知道看起來這個部長非常的樂觀但是其實你回去可以告訴卓院長就是說這件事情如果要辦得成他\n以一個行政院院長之職他可能還要派一個政委來協助你就你們必須連成一條線才有力量去讓其他的部會鬆動配合這件事情不是樂觀就可以達成的如果他沒有因為我不知道誰是負責環境部的政委是哪一位\n目前還沒有但是我覺得卓院長對我是非常的支持對那卓院長不能只是口頭支持我覺得行政資源跟加上一位政委的力量而且他自己恐怕要召開一次會議把部長叫來正式告訴他說這件事他就是授權環境部未來如何去降低交通運輸部門的碳排由環境部來做主責單位各部會應該要配合這個是\n告訴部長你可以回去要求的這樣你才會有實權以後開的會才會有效益要不然都是開一開就算了就人家真的不會聽你的這個是你要有這樣的現實感這個是非常重要的所以這個部分呢請你就是我覺得你有樂觀的態度願意溝通的精神很好但是在行政部門裡面講求的是權力\n那個權利還是很重要有真正的授權那另外一個是你自己就可以決定的碳費的制度延宕到現在沒有答案那上一個部長我問他他沒有答案您是新任的部長我想問你\n你自己有沒有一個真正具體的目標環境部可以自己做決定嗎還是涉及到中小企業還是得看經濟部的臉色因為這件事情曾經一度就停擺而且媒體還傳出來不見得是明年要上路可以一言再言那我不知道這個部長賴總統或者是卓院長有沒有賦予你明確的目標還是遇到經濟部還是得要轉彎如果有反彈\n中小企業通通都反彈那這件事情連一步都跨不出去因為你的審議委員會不敢去碰觸定價的問題到目前為止開好像沒有開事實上你們早就有復案了我對前一個前一個部長是這樣子講早就有復案是不敢端出來因為這個企業都還有意見那這部分你要怎麼處理這是你手上就可以處理的你敢不敢把車開出去\n從我的立場來講 這個車一定要趕快開 縱使影子價格0也可以開 我是認為這是最重要的 因為這裡面還有很多細節要處理 所以我個人是支持說一定要趕快進行不過我也跟委員報告 目前的制度 當時氣候衛生面積因法設下的規定 我沒有辦法決定多少錢\n如果我可以決定我可能下個月就告訴你了所以目前我是遵照過去碳費設計的這個制度來進行那我絕對請我的次長能夠加快因為他是主席會加快的能夠來開這個會對那因為部長換新的次長沒有換嘛齁那次長上一次就就在延宕了那次長新的部長來你會加速你的進度嗎不同的部長你會有不同的作為嗎\n跟我們報告啦因為其實政策我們不論是哪一個部長我們整體的政策就是依法來執行\n那在跟委員報告是說我們前三次的會確實沒有涉及到費率的討論因為我們做制度的介紹 那我們下一次的會現在在調查6月底跟7月初那我們這一次就依照委員的建議我們有把各種不同的費率在不同層級的衝擊評估要一起做一個完整的報告讓費率審議會的委員們來參考\n然後來進行討論所以確定下一次會議就會觸及到對立的問題下一次會有這個評估方案讓委員們可以提供建議那現在最大的阻力是什麼\n企業的反彈對不對因為我們委員們的組成有包括企業有包括不同的部門還有包括民間團體跟專家學者所以我覺得在討論的過程當中其實各界會對於碳費制度的期待我們都會一起考慮進去也不見得是只有企業其實民間團體也有很多的但為什麼之前一度傳出來說可能明年也不會上路你有看到這個新聞嗎有有因為新聞那是誰定調的\n不是環境部?是更高層?沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有\n不會。這個是我們決定的。你們決定的嘛。你們人都沒有講。那媒體自己...那個假消息從哪裡來的?我跟委員報告,其實從我們這個過去的經驗在COVA會議的經驗其實碳費只是一個工具。\n還有別的所以我其實也跟我們同仁講我們要跟先進好的國家學習例如說新加坡或是日本等等他們有一些配套的措施所以碳費只不過是碳定價一個工具而已所以我希望我在我的任內我可以積極發展多元的工具促進減量那個量可以減下去才是關鍵\n當然量減下去才是關鍵但是為什麼當時大家會覺得碳費必須制定不可因為它就是一個強而有力的工具逼著大家你非減不可要不然你要付出比較高昂的成本\n所以這件事情我覺得考驗著我們彭部長的決心就是說會不會做得成這個就是你在環境部部長這個位置要不要留下一個歷史上的紀錄這個看你自己怎麼樣做選擇因為如果災是放軟退縮然後沒有其成\n那這個大家就覺得換什麼部長其實都一樣我們台灣沒有一個強悍的部長為了這一個減碳就是強力執行到底所以這個彭部長你的這個歷史定位在碳費的這件事情上面他其實還蠻關鍵的希望你這個新職上任一切可以順利但是環境部真的不是那麼好做他必須展現一定的執政的\n王育敏\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.685 --> 00:30.074\n謝謝主席,我們是不是有請部長?請彭部長。委員長,謝謝。彭部長恭喜來就任環境部部長的位置。一方面是恭喜,一方面也為你有一點小擔憂。主要是環境部你剛剛的報告其實面相非常的廣。那您過去其實是氣象達人、氣象專家,大家都非常熟悉。\n\n00:31.314 --> 00:58.934\n對於其他的面相可能比較不了解的部分這可能就是你要花更多時間跟力氣迎頭趕上的我不曉得你上任到現在有沒有感覺到這一個被追趕的壓力的確每天都半夜會醒過來半夜醒過來因為要懂得還要很多很多要跟我們同仁多學習對因為就本席在未還的幾項業務當中我覺得環境部相對是比較深奧\n\n00:59.734 --> 01:10.538\n就是比較專業比較難懂的所以但是還是希望你可以好好睡覺因為好的體力這個可以應付立法院這樣的一個質詢那第一個本期要請教的是考古題這個事實上我也問過上一任的部長我同樣要來請教你就是如果我們仔細去看臺灣的這一些碳排的話你可以發現\n\n01:22.202 --> 01:38.859\n事實上他一直都沒有辦法有效的減少所以我知道您過去也參加過氣候變遷大會那氣候變遷大會其實對於各國都有一些碳排的要求的其實台灣一直都沒有達標這個你應該也清楚\n\n01:39.434 --> 01:53.841\n那第一個我想請教你的就是如果歷任的部長都做不到的部分那今天賴清德總統重用你您要用什麼樣的方法有效的去降低這個碳排\n\n01:55.445 --> 02:13.558\n您覺得您當時在民間你參加過這些氣候變遷大會也看到你從一個比較旁觀者看到臺灣為什麼我們的碳排沒有辦法有效的減少那今天你做到部長這個位置了你覺得最關鍵的因素在哪裡你要怎麼樣去解決這樣的一個問題\n\n02:14.979 --> 02:27.336\n報告委員因為我個人本身不是從官僚體系出生民間也有很多的意見那這個意見也謝謝總統或是院長他們都看到了所以找我來的工作就是你所說的我要來解決這個問題那這個問題必須很坦誠的說\n\n02:30.680 --> 02:54.468\n不是只有環境部的事所以我的角色我會進行多種的跨部會的合作希望大家一起來談這不是我環境部的責任我是末端算碳排的責任所以這個要大家各個部會一起來承擔那目前卓院長也有這樣的很大的認知所以目前他的確是給我很大的支持度就讓我放手來做這個事情也請委員給我支持給我鼓勵\n\n02:56.289 --> 03:21.182\n你剛講到一個重點就是說環境部有沒有辦法去指揮其他的部會要求他們來配合這個的確是長期的一個問題接下來我讓你看這一張在我們現在的碳排裡面光運輸部門的碳排是不減反增交通部是大部會交通政策沒有淨零有碳排\n\n03:22.611 --> 03:25.158\n這個部分他的運輸他的部分還超越了工業在2022年那單就這個部分\n\n03:30.475 --> 03:55.351\n你將來要怎麼跟交通部針對這個部分來解決你剛剛說總統跟院長特別希望你由民間來到公部門體系就是要解決問題的但是過去我們看到在行政院裡面部會是平行的請問一個環境部部長怎麼樣來要求交通部應該要來配合環境部的政策過去的部長是做不到的\n\n03:55.976 --> 04:16.665\n報告委員因為我來自民間比較有彈性我對我來說政府就是一起的所以我的確在這段時間雖然我還沒上任我也跟很多的部長談說我們可不可以來合作所以我的確是彎下腰來希望跨部會進行多一點合作那當然啦這個東西都需要大家雙方的努力光靠我一個人沒有辦法所以基本上\n\n04:17.165 --> 04:33.204\n不管不是只有交通還包含農業甚至醫療等等全部都是跨部會的所以我沒有辦法說我一個人就可以跟大家承諾要進行碳排所以我的確會彎下腰更多的彎下腰來跟大家一起來合作希望大家來看看那個數字達成這樣的目標\n\n04:34.246 --> 04:56.018\n那如果這樣子其實應該賦予你更高的位置我不敢不敢就是政委層級的才可以協調部會要求部會配合你因為因為部會之間在公部門就是這樣大家都平行單位其實誰也不聽誰那個環境部其他官員應該感受很深大家開會打擾八大就是交通部長可能覺得他還比環境部大\n\n04:56.838 --> 05:22.719\n因為交通部是大部啊報告委員我的經驗是我的權力不是權力的大小不是來自於官位而是來自於你的熱忱跟影響力所以我會積極的去做希望我還持續明年還有這樣的熱情啦我會努力啦好我們看到一個樂觀的部長我是正向的啦對我知道看起來這個部長非常的樂觀但是其實你回去可以告訴卓院長就是說這件事情如果要辦得成他\n\n05:24.620 --> 05:41.728\n以一個行政院院長之職他可能還要派一個政委來協助你就你們必須連成一條線才有力量去讓其他的部會鬆動配合這件事情不是樂觀就可以達成的如果他沒有因為我不知道誰是負責環境部的政委是哪一位\n\n05:42.328 --> 06:09.513\n目前還沒有但是我覺得卓院長對我是非常的支持對那卓院長不能只是口頭支持我覺得行政資源跟加上一位政委的力量而且他自己恐怕要召開一次會議把部長叫來正式告訴他說這件事他就是授權環境部未來如何去降低交通運輸部門的碳排由環境部來做主責單位各部會應該要配合這個是\n\n06:12.313 --> 06:33.845\n告訴部長你可以回去要求的這樣你才會有實權以後開的會才會有效益要不然都是開一開就算了就人家真的不會聽你的這個是你要有這樣的現實感這個是非常重要的所以這個部分呢請你就是我覺得你有樂觀的態度願意溝通的精神很好但是在行政部門裡面講求的是權力\n\n06:34.929 --> 06:51.641\n那個權利還是很重要有真正的授權那另外一個是你自己就可以決定的碳費的制度延宕到現在沒有答案那上一個部長我問他他沒有答案您是新任的部長我想問你\n\n06:52.361 --> 07:21.601\n你自己有沒有一個真正具體的目標環境部可以自己做決定嗎還是涉及到中小企業還是得看經濟部的臉色因為這件事情曾經一度就停擺而且媒體還傳出來不見得是明年要上路可以一言再言那我不知道這個部長賴總統或者是卓院長有沒有賦予你明確的目標還是遇到經濟部還是得要轉彎如果有反彈\n\n07:22.621 --> 07:50.519\n中小企業通通都反彈那這件事情連一步都跨不出去因為你的審議委員會不敢去碰觸定價的問題到目前為止開好像沒有開事實上你們早就有復案了我對前一個前一個部長是這樣子講早就有復案是不敢端出來因為這個企業都還有意見那這部分你要怎麼處理這是你手上就可以處理的你敢不敢把車開出去\n\n07:51.516 --> 08:10.517\n從我的立場來講這個車一定要趕快開縱使影子價格0也可以開我是認為這是最重要的因為這裡面還有很多細節要處理所以我個人是支持說一定要趕快進行不過我也跟委員報告目前的制度當時氣候衛生面積因法設下的規定我沒有辦法決定多少錢\n\n08:11.238 --> 08:32.915\n如果我可以決定我可能下個月就告訴你了所以目前我是遵照過去碳費設計的這個制度來進行那我絕對請我的次長能夠加快因為他是主席會加快的能夠來開這個會對那因為部長換新的次長沒有換嘛齁那次長上一次就就在延宕了那次長新的部長來你會加速你的進度嗎不同的部長你會有不同的作為嗎\n\n08:36.242 --> 08:41.387\n跟我們報告啦因為其實政策我們不論是哪一個部長我們整體的政策就是依法來執行\n\n08:42.383 --> 09:04.928\n那在跟委員報告是說我們前三次的會確實沒有涉及到費率的討論因為我們做制度的介紹那我們下一次的會現在在調查6月底跟7月初那我們這一次就依照委員的建議我們有把各種不同的費率在不同層級的衝擊評估要一起做一個完整的報告讓費率審議會的委員們來參考\n\n09:07.308 --> 09:17.542\n然後來進行討論所以確定下一次會議就會觸及到對立的問題下一次會有這個評估方案讓委員們可以提供建議那現在最大的阻力是什麼\n\n09:18.260 --> 09:46.416\n企業的反彈對不對因為我們委員們的組成有包括企業有包括不同的部門還有包括民間團體跟專家學者所以我覺得在討論的過程當中其實各界會對於碳費制度的期待我們都會一起考慮進去也不見得是只有企業其實民間團體也有很多的但為什麼之前一度傳出來說可能明年也不會上路你有看到這個新聞嗎有有因為新聞那是誰定調的\n\n09:48.376 --> 10:06.632\n不是環境部?是更高層?沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有\n\n10:07.294 --> 10:21.688\n不會。這個是我們決定的。你們決定的嘛。你們人都沒有講。那媒體自己...那個假消息從哪裡來的?我跟委員報告,其實從我們這個過去的經驗在COVA會議的經驗其實碳費只是一個工具。\n\n10:22.368 --> 10:41.359\n還有別的所以我其實也跟我們同仁講我們要跟先進好的國家學習例如說新加坡或是日本等等他們有一些配套的措施所以碳費只不過是碳定價一個工具而已所以我希望我在我的任內我可以積極發展多元的工具促進減量那個量可以減下去才是關鍵\n\n10:42.393 --> 10:55.554\n當然量減下去才是關鍵但是為什麼當時大家會覺得碳費必須制定不可因為它就是一個強而有力的工具逼著大家你非減不可要不然你要付出比較高昂的成本\n\n10:56.195 --> 10:59.257\n所以這件事情我覺得考驗著我們彭部長的決心就是說會不會做得成這個就是你在環境部部長這個位置要不要留下一個歷史上的紀錄這個看你自己怎麼樣做選擇因為如果災是放軟退縮然後沒有其成\n\n11:16.528 --> 11:41.606\n那這個大家就覺得換什麼部長其實都一樣我們台灣沒有一個強悍的部長為了這一個減碳就是強力執行到底所以這個彭部長你的這個歷史定位在碳費的這件事情上面他其實還蠻關鍵的希望你這個新職上任一切可以順利但是環境部真的不是那麼好做他必須展現一定的執政的\n\n11:44.225 --> 11:44.566\n王育敏\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.685,"end":30.074,"text":"謝謝主席,我們是不是有請部長?請彭部長。委員長,謝謝。彭部長恭喜來就任環境部部長的位置。一方面是恭喜,一方面也為你有一點小擔憂。主要是環境部你剛剛的報告其實面相非常的廣。那您過去其實是氣象達人、氣象專家,大家都非常熟悉。"},{"start":31.314,"end":58.934,"text":"對於其他的面相可能比較不了解的部分這可能就是你要花更多時間跟力氣迎頭趕上的我不曉得你上任到現在有沒有感覺到這一個被追趕的壓力的確每天都半夜會醒過來半夜醒過來因為要懂得還要很多很多要跟我們同仁多學習對因為就本席在未還的幾項業務當中我覺得環境部相對是比較深奧"},{"start":59.734,"end":70.538,"text":"就是比較專業比較難懂的所以但是還是希望你可以好好睡覺因為好的體力這個可以應付立法院這樣的一個質詢那第一個本期要請教的是考古題這個事實上我也問過上一任的部長我同樣要來請教你就是如果我們仔細去看臺灣的這一些碳排的話你可以發現"},{"start":82.202,"end":98.859,"text":"事實上他一直都沒有辦法有效的減少所以我知道您過去也參加過氣候變遷大會那氣候變遷大會其實對於各國都有一些碳排的要求的其實台灣一直都沒有達標這個你應該也清楚"},{"start":99.434,"end":113.841,"text":"那第一個我想請教你的就是如果歷任的部長都做不到的部分那今天賴清德總統重用你您要用什麼樣的方法有效的去降低這個碳排"},{"start":115.445,"end":133.558,"text":"您覺得您當時在民間你參加過這些氣候變遷大會也看到你從一個比較旁觀者看到臺灣為什麼我們的碳排沒有辦法有效的減少那今天你做到部長這個位置了你覺得最關鍵的因素在哪裡你要怎麼樣去解決這樣的一個問題"},{"start":134.979,"end":147.336,"text":"報告委員因為我個人本身不是從官僚體系出生民間也有很多的意見那這個意見也謝謝總統或是院長他們都看到了所以找我來的工作就是你所說的我要來解決這個問題那這個問題必須很坦誠的說"},{"start":150.68,"end":174.468,"text":"不是只有環境部的事所以我的角色我會進行多種的跨部會的合作希望大家一起來談這不是我環境部的責任我是末端算碳排的責任所以這個要大家各個部會一起來承擔那目前卓院長也有這樣的很大的認知所以目前他的確是給我很大的支持度就讓我放手來做這個事情也請委員給我支持給我鼓勵"},{"start":176.289,"end":201.182,"text":"你剛講到一個重點就是說環境部有沒有辦法去指揮其他的部會要求他們來配合這個的確是長期的一個問題接下來我讓你看這一張在我們現在的碳排裡面光運輸部門的碳排是不減反增交通部是大部會交通政策沒有淨零有碳排"},{"start":202.611,"end":205.158,"text":"這個部分他的運輸他的部分還超越了工業在2022年那單就這個部分"},{"start":210.475,"end":235.351,"text":"你將來要怎麼跟交通部針對這個部分來解決你剛剛說總統跟院長特別希望你由民間來到公部門體系就是要解決問題的但是過去我們看到在行政院裡面部會是平行的請問一個環境部部長怎麼樣來要求交通部應該要來配合環境部的政策過去的部長是做不到的"},{"start":235.976,"end":256.665,"text":"報告委員因為我來自民間比較有彈性我對我來說政府就是一起的所以我的確在這段時間雖然我還沒上任我也跟很多的部長談說我們可不可以來合作所以我的確是彎下腰來希望跨部會進行多一點合作那當然啦這個東西都需要大家雙方的努力光靠我一個人沒有辦法所以基本上"},{"start":257.165,"end":273.204,"text":"不管不是只有交通還包含農業甚至醫療等等全部都是跨部會的所以我沒有辦法說我一個人就可以跟大家承諾要進行碳排所以我的確會彎下腰更多的彎下腰來跟大家一起來合作希望大家來看看那個數字達成這樣的目標"},{"start":274.246,"end":296.018,"text":"那如果這樣子其實應該賦予你更高的位置我不敢不敢就是政委層級的才可以協調部會要求部會配合你因為因為部會之間在公部門就是這樣大家都平行單位其實誰也不聽誰那個環境部其他官員應該感受很深大家開會打擾八大就是交通部長可能覺得他還比環境部大"},{"start":296.838,"end":322.719,"text":"因為交通部是大部啊報告委員我的經驗是我的權力不是權力的大小不是來自於官位而是來自於你的熱忱跟影響力所以我會積極的去做希望我還持續明年還有這樣的熱情啦我會努力啦好我們看到一個樂觀的部長我是正向的啦對我知道看起來這個部長非常的樂觀但是其實你回去可以告訴卓院長就是說這件事情如果要辦得成他"},{"start":324.62,"end":341.728,"text":"以一個行政院院長之職他可能還要派一個政委來協助你就你們必須連成一條線才有力量去讓其他的部會鬆動配合這件事情不是樂觀就可以達成的如果他沒有因為我不知道誰是負責環境部的政委是哪一位"},{"start":342.328,"end":369.513,"text":"目前還沒有但是我覺得卓院長對我是非常的支持對那卓院長不能只是口頭支持我覺得行政資源跟加上一位政委的力量而且他自己恐怕要召開一次會議把部長叫來正式告訴他說這件事他就是授權環境部未來如何去降低交通運輸部門的碳排由環境部來做主責單位各部會應該要配合這個是"},{"start":372.313,"end":393.845,"text":"告訴部長你可以回去要求的這樣你才會有實權以後開的會才會有效益要不然都是開一開就算了就人家真的不會聽你的這個是你要有這樣的現實感這個是非常重要的所以這個部分呢請你就是我覺得你有樂觀的態度願意溝通的精神很好但是在行政部門裡面講求的是權力"},{"start":394.929,"end":411.641,"text":"那個權利還是很重要有真正的授權那另外一個是你自己就可以決定的碳費的制度延宕到現在沒有答案那上一個部長我問他他沒有答案您是新任的部長我想問你"},{"start":412.361,"end":441.601,"text":"你自己有沒有一個真正具體的目標環境部可以自己做決定嗎還是涉及到中小企業還是得看經濟部的臉色因為這件事情曾經一度就停擺而且媒體還傳出來不見得是明年要上路可以一言再言那我不知道這個部長賴總統或者是卓院長有沒有賦予你明確的目標還是遇到經濟部還是得要轉彎如果有反彈"},{"start":442.621,"end":470.519,"text":"中小企業通通都反彈那這件事情連一步都跨不出去因為你的審議委員會不敢去碰觸定價的問題到目前為止開好像沒有開事實上你們早就有復案了我對前一個前一個部長是這樣子講早就有復案是不敢端出來因為這個企業都還有意見那這部分你要怎麼處理這是你手上就可以處理的你敢不敢把車開出去"},{"start":471.516,"end":490.517,"text":"從我的立場來講 這個車一定要趕快開 縱使影子價格0也可以開 我是認為這是最重要的 因為這裡面還有很多細節要處理 所以我個人是支持說一定要趕快進行不過我也跟委員報告 目前的制度 當時氣候衛生面積因法設下的規定 我沒有辦法決定多少錢"},{"start":491.238,"end":512.915,"text":"如果我可以決定我可能下個月就告訴你了所以目前我是遵照過去碳費設計的這個制度來進行那我絕對請我的次長能夠加快因為他是主席會加快的能夠來開這個會對那因為部長換新的次長沒有換嘛齁那次長上一次就就在延宕了那次長新的部長來你會加速你的進度嗎不同的部長你會有不同的作為嗎"},{"start":516.242,"end":521.387,"text":"跟我們報告啦因為其實政策我們不論是哪一個部長我們整體的政策就是依法來執行"},{"start":522.383,"end":544.928,"text":"那在跟委員報告是說我們前三次的會確實沒有涉及到費率的討論因為我們做制度的介紹 那我們下一次的會現在在調查6月底跟7月初那我們這一次就依照委員的建議我們有把各種不同的費率在不同層級的衝擊評估要一起做一個完整的報告讓費率審議會的委員們來參考"},{"start":547.308,"end":557.542,"text":"然後來進行討論所以確定下一次會議就會觸及到對立的問題下一次會有這個評估方案讓委員們可以提供建議那現在最大的阻力是什麼"},{"start":558.26,"end":586.416,"text":"企業的反彈對不對因為我們委員們的組成有包括企業有包括不同的部門還有包括民間團體跟專家學者所以我覺得在討論的過程當中其實各界會對於碳費制度的期待我們都會一起考慮進去也不見得是只有企業其實民間團體也有很多的但為什麼之前一度傳出來說可能明年也不會上路你有看到這個新聞嗎有有因為新聞那是誰定調的"},{"start":588.376,"end":606.632,"text":"不是環境部?是更高層?沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":607.294,"end":621.688,"text":"不會。這個是我們決定的。你們決定的嘛。你們人都沒有講。那媒體自己...那個假消息從哪裡來的?我跟委員報告,其實從我們這個過去的經驗在COVA會議的經驗其實碳費只是一個工具。"},{"start":622.368,"end":641.359,"text":"還有別的所以我其實也跟我們同仁講我們要跟先進好的國家學習例如說新加坡或是日本等等他們有一些配套的措施所以碳費只不過是碳定價一個工具而已所以我希望我在我的任內我可以積極發展多元的工具促進減量那個量可以減下去才是關鍵"},{"start":642.393,"end":655.554,"text":"當然量減下去才是關鍵但是為什麼當時大家會覺得碳費必須制定不可因為它就是一個強而有力的工具逼著大家你非減不可要不然你要付出比較高昂的成本"},{"start":656.195,"end":659.257,"text":"所以這件事情我覺得考驗著我們彭部長的決心就是說會不會做得成這個就是你在環境部部長這個位置要不要留下一個歷史上的紀錄這個看你自己怎麼樣做選擇因為如果災是放軟退縮然後沒有其成"},{"start":676.528,"end":701.606,"text":"那這個大家就覺得換什麼部長其實都一樣我們台灣沒有一個強悍的部長為了這一個減碳就是強力執行到底所以這個彭部長你的這個歷史定位在碳費的這件事情上面他其實還蠻關鍵的希望你這個新職上任一切可以順利但是環境部真的不是那麼好做他必須展現一定的執政的"},{"start":704.225,"end":704.566,"text":"王育敏"}]}}}}