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10:48:54","影片長度":"00:06:01","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":361,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T10:48:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T10:42:53+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":612,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（10時43分）謝謝主席，我請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：黃委員早。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，我看到你自詡為政府的永續長，所以今天開始，我們就把你當成政府的永續長。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：我看到您在就任之前的專訪，非常高興，第一個我想知道，你說碳費的時程不可以再拖，要先上路，少收一點也沒有關係，這一點我想問一下，除了碳費上路之外，碳費之後銜接的碳稅，你覺得什麼時候可以上路？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我們的碳費已經隱含了類似碳稅的性質在裡面。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是內容還是差很多。"],["彭部長啓明：但是如果以我長期參加COP會議，還有各國的經驗，總量管制的碳交易才是釜底抽薪最有效的作法，但是這個還要一點時間。"],["黃委員珊珊：需要時間，但是我們需要做好準備，對吧？因為我們必須要銜接國際。我在3月的時候質詢了環境部薛部長，問他碳稅什麼時候可以上路，薛部長說他認為2030年是一個不錯的時間點，那氣候署蔡玲儀署長也補充說初步規劃是2030年，我想請問彭部長，您上任了，對於這個規劃是不是還是延續環境部前部長的態度？"],["彭部長啓明：我個人其實沒有特別接觸到碳稅，但是我還是跟委員報告，其實總量管制的碳交易，就像EU ETS或美國等等的制度，甚至有些國家是雙軌並行。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以，部長，我的意見是不管如何我們要做好規劃、做好準備。"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：您講的這個部分OK，但是碳稅2030年我們勢必要面對，而這個面對現在可能就要開始接軌。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：雖然我們碳費還沒有上路，第二個部分是你說實際要減碳，但更重要的是胡蘿蔔。沒錯！現在只有收錢的話，企業大概不痛不癢，但如果給他一些胡蘿蔔，他可能才會真正做到。但是碳費的機制上，剛剛很多委員都說了，工總最近說你都沒有去溝通好，或者環境部沒有溝通好，我不知道，我剛剛聽到你會去溝通好，我覺得是一件好事。我們不會比業界更瞭解業界，我們要知道他們要什麼，如果只是要付一點點錢，然後什麼東西都沒有、沒有胡蘿蔔，對他們來說也沒什麼用。所以我要強調，我看你提到美國的降低通膨方案裡面，臺灣政府可以轉型的參考，也就是胡蘿蔔，美國的法案每年要投入3,750億做減碳投資。同樣的，臺灣目前碳費的規劃及將來碳稅的規劃，有沒有做你講的所謂胡蘿蔔的轉型之投資計畫？"],["彭部長啓明：因為這個碳費現在還沒有正式起收，所以它使用的用途……"],["黃委員珊珊：我們有沒有考慮提？"],["彭部長啓明：還沒有在規劃這個……"],["黃委員珊珊：我給部長一個建議，當時我在臺北市的時候，我們提出了淨零碳排自治條例，裡面就訂一個氣候轉型基金。你必須要有一筆錢協助企業及包括受損失或影響事業的民眾做轉型。也就是碳費開始上路之後，政府應該有相對補償或者就他們在轉型中間可能造成損失的一個計畫，你同意嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：同意。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以氣候轉型基金可能是環境部將來很重要的任務。"],["彭部長啓明：就是可能在未來碳費收取之後，一部分的……"],["黃委員珊珊：是的，你必須要有一部分的錢拿來做這方面的轉型。最重要的是，接下來除了剛剛講的胡蘿蔔還有什麼？給胡蘿蔔的最好方法其實是財政部的租稅工具。租稅工具裡面，針對產業創新條例，現在有很多東西可以抵減稅額，尤其是投資減稅；而減碳的投資額度，環境部要去跟財政部爭取。現在財政部因為收稅，財政狀況非常好，稅收非常完整，所以他不太願意減免或抵減，這個部分可能環境部必須協助企業去爭取，我們今天要走到淨零碳排的路上，相對上如果沒有減稅的工具，其實也沒有什麼效果，就是你說的胡蘿蔔可能不夠。你同意嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：同意。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，最後一個小問題。我常常在說，現在台積電不斷在國內擴廠，環境部主管的所謂環境影響評估什麼都評，水力也要評，但就是電力不評。上次我問了薛部長，也就是要設一個廠，就我們電力的評估夠不夠，完全沒有在他們的環境影響評估裡面，這個部分我們希望加到將來的環評規劃裡面。雖然依電業法是由台電提供電，但我希望將來企業自身可能也自主發電，甚至有自己負責其電力調配的能力。否則永遠都是一般民眾來承擔，我們必須要經濟發展而受到電力的這些衝擊，而發生事情的時候，我們如果反對，就說是我們不要經濟發展，但全國民眾都在承擔這個經濟發展所帶來的電力上的影響，你同意吧？"],["彭部長啓明：好，這個我會請我們同仁研究一下……"],["黃委員珊珊：環境影響評估裡面包括電力的評估，將來自主電力也應該成為企業設廠時的一個要求。"],["彭部長啓明：好，這個我會請我們同仁研究一下。"],["黃委員珊珊：目前沒有啦！我現在只是要告訴部長，你上任後，這個應該成為環境部的責任之一。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員的發言。我們現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時48分）","繼續開會（10時59分）"],["主席：繼續開會。接下來請陳瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳菁徽","王正旭","涂權吉","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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00:00:09,911\n我看到您在就任之前的專訪其實非常高興第一個我想知道\n\n2\n00:00:40,029 --> 00:00:40,449\n但是這個還要一點時間。\n\n3\n00:01:03,345 --> 00:01:24,853\n需要時間但是我們需要做好準備對吧因為我們已經必須要銜接國際我在3月的時候質詢了環境部長薛部長問他碳稅什麼時候可以上路薛部長說他認為2030年是一個不錯的時間點那氣候署的署長蔡麟也補充說初步規劃是2030我想請問彭部長您上任了對於這個規劃是不是還繼續延續前我們環境部的態度\n\n4\n00:01:31,235 --> 00:01:47,934\n我個人其實沒有特別接觸到碳稅但是我還是跟我報告委員其實總量管制的碳交易就像EUETS或是美國等等的制度才是甚至連有些國家兩個國家雙軌並行所以部長我的意見是我們不管如何我們要做好規劃\n\n5\n00:01:48,755 --> 00:01:48,855\n﹚黃珊珊\n\n6\n00:02:09,463 --> 00:02:35,381\n但是如果給他一些胡蘿蔔他可能才會真正的做到但是碳費的機制上剛剛很多委員都說了公總在最近說你都沒有去溝通好或者環境部沒有溝通好我不知道我剛剛聽到說你會去溝通好我覺得是一件好事我們不會比業界更了解業界我們要知道他們要什麼如果他們只是要付一點點錢然後什麼東西都沒有沒有胡蘿蔔對他們來說也沒什麼用所以我要強調的是\n\n7\n00:02:37,542 --> 00:02:51,034\n現在我看你提到的是美國的降低通貨法案裡面台灣政府我們可以轉型的胡蘿蔔的參考美國的法案每年要投入3750億做減碳投資同樣的台灣目前碳費的規劃還有將來碳稅的規劃有沒有做所謂你講的胡蘿蔔的轉型的投資計畫\n\n8\n00:03:01,152 --> 00:03:08,975\n因為這個碳費現在還沒有正式起手,所以它的使用的用途還沒有在規劃。我們裡面就訂一個氣候轉型基金。你必須要一筆錢來協助企業包括受損失或影響失業的民眾做一個轉型。也就是說我們從碳費開始上路之後,其實政府應該有一個相對\n\n9\n00:04:12,463 --> 00:04:12,763\n最後一個小問題\n\n10\n00:04:36,072 --> 00:04:58,465\n我常常在說我們現在不斷的有台積電不斷的在國內擴廠我們環境部我們主管的所謂的環境影響評估什麼都緩什麼都平平水水力也要平但是就是電力不平我上次問了薛部長也就是說一個他要設一個廠對我們的電力評估夠不夠完全沒有在他們的環境影響評估裡面\n\n11\n00:04:59,065 --> 00:04:59,105\n﹚黃珊珊﹚\n\n12\n00:05:27,918 --> 00:05:53,420\n全國的民眾都在承擔這個經濟發展帶來對電的影響你同意吧?好這個我會請我們同仁來研究一下你就用環境影響評估裡面包括電力的評估我們將來的自主自主電力也應該成為企業他在設廠的時候一個要求這個我會請我們同仁來研究一下我現在只要告訴部長說如果你上任這個部分應該成為環境部的責任之一好謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝委員\n\n13\n00:05:56,703 --> 00:05:58,908\n謝謝黃珊珊委員的發言我們先來休息10分鐘\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7569\t9911\t我看到您在就任之前的專訪其實非常高興第一個我想知道\n29497\t39497\t﹗\n40029\t40449\t但是這個還要一點時間。\n63345\t84853\t需要時間但是我們需要做好準備對吧因為我們已經必須要銜接國際我在3月的時候質詢了環境部長薛部長問他碳稅什麼時候可以上路薛部長說他認為2030年是一個不錯的時間點那氣候署的署長蔡麟也補充說初步規劃是2030我想請問彭部長您上任了對於這個規劃是不是還繼續延續前我們環境部的態度\n91235\t107934\t我個人其實沒有特別接觸到碳稅但是我還是跟我報告委員其實總量管制的碳交易就像EU ETS或是美國等等的制度才是甚至連有些國家兩個國家雙軌並行所以部長我的意見是我們不管如何我們要做好規劃\n108755\t108855\t﹚黃珊珊\n129463\t155381\t但是如果給他一些胡蘿蔔他可能才會真正的做到但是碳費的機制上剛剛很多委員都說了公總在最近說你都沒有去溝通好或者環境部沒有溝通好我不知道我剛剛聽到說你會去溝通好我覺得是一件好事我們不會比業界更了解業界我們要知道他們要什麼如果他們只是要付一點點錢然後什麼東西都沒有沒有胡蘿蔔對他們來說也沒什麼用所以我要強調的是\n157542\t171034\t現在我看你提到的是美國的降低通貨法案裡面台灣政府我們可以轉型的胡蘿蔔的參考美國的法案每年要投入3750億做減碳投資同樣的台灣目前碳費的規劃還有將來碳稅的規劃有沒有做所謂你講的胡蘿蔔的轉型的投資計畫\n181152\t188975\t因為這個碳費現在還沒有正式起手,所以它的使用的用途還沒有在規劃。我們裡面就訂一個氣候轉型基金。你必須要一筆錢來協助企業包括受損失或影響失業的民眾做一個轉型。也就是說我們從碳費開始上路之後,其實政府應該有一個相對\n208592\t234735\t​​​​​​​​​​\n234735\t252363\t﹚國際網絡網絡\n252463\t252763\t最後一個小問題\n276072\t298465\t我常常在說我們現在不斷的有台積電不斷的在國內擴廠我們環境部我們主管的所謂的環境影響評估什麼都緩什麼都平平水水力也要平但是就是電力不平我上次問了薛部長也就是說一個他要設一個廠對我們的電力評估夠不夠完全沒有在他們的環境影響評估裡面\n299065\t299105\t﹚黃珊珊﹚\n327918\t353420\t全國的民眾都在承擔這個經濟發展帶來對電的影響你同意吧?好 這個我會請我們同仁來研究一下你就用環境影響評估裡面包括電力的評估我們將來的自主自主電力也應該成為企業他在設廠的時候一個要求這個我會請我們同仁來研究一下我現在只要告訴部長說如果你上任這個部分應該成為環境部的責任之一好 謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝委員\n356703\t358908\t謝謝黃珊珊委員的發言 我們先來休息10分鐘\n","txt":"我看到您在就任之前的專訪其實非常高興第一個我想知道\n﹗\n但是這個還要一點時間。\n需要時間但是我們需要做好準備對吧因為我們已經必須要銜接國際我在3月的時候質詢了環境部長薛部長問他碳稅什麼時候可以上路薛部長說他認為2030年是一個不錯的時間點那氣候署的署長蔡麟也補充說初步規劃是2030我想請問彭部長您上任了對於這個規劃是不是還繼續延續前我們環境部的態度\n我個人其實沒有特別接觸到碳稅但是我還是跟我報告委員其實總量管制的碳交易就像EU ETS或是美國等等的制度才是甚至連有些國家兩個國家雙軌並行所以部長我的意見是我們不管如何我們要做好規劃\n﹚黃珊珊\n但是如果給他一些胡蘿蔔他可能才會真正的做到但是碳費的機制上剛剛很多委員都說了公總在最近說你都沒有去溝通好或者環境部沒有溝通好我不知道我剛剛聽到說你會去溝通好我覺得是一件好事我們不會比業界更了解業界我們要知道他們要什麼如果他們只是要付一點點錢然後什麼東西都沒有沒有胡蘿蔔對他們來說也沒什麼用所以我要強調的是\n現在我看你提到的是美國的降低通貨法案裡面台灣政府我們可以轉型的胡蘿蔔的參考美國的法案每年要投入3750億做減碳投資同樣的台灣目前碳費的規劃還有將來碳稅的規劃有沒有做所謂你講的胡蘿蔔的轉型的投資計畫\n因為這個碳費現在還沒有正式起手,所以它的使用的用途還沒有在規劃。我們裡面就訂一個氣候轉型基金。你必須要一筆錢來協助企業包括受損失或影響失業的民眾做一個轉型。也就是說我們從碳費開始上路之後,其實政府應該有一個相對\n​​​​​​​​​​\n﹚國際網絡網絡\n最後一個小問題\n我常常在說我們現在不斷的有台積電不斷的在國內擴廠我們環境部我們主管的所謂的環境影響評估什麼都緩什麼都平平水水力也要平但是就是電力不平我上次問了薛部長也就是說一個他要設一個廠對我們的電力評估夠不夠完全沒有在他們的環境影響評估裡面\n﹚黃珊珊﹚\n全國的民眾都在承擔這個經濟發展帶來對電的影響你同意吧?好 這個我會請我們同仁來研究一下你就用環境影響評估裡面包括電力的評估我們將來的自主自主電力也應該成為企業他在設廠的時候一個要求這個我會請我們同仁來研究一下我現在只要告訴部長說如果你上任這個部分應該成為環境部的責任之一好 謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝委員\n謝謝黃珊珊委員的發言 我們先來休息10分鐘\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.569 --> 00:09.911\n我看到您在就任之前的專訪其實非常高興第一個我想知道\n\n00:40.029 --> 00:40.449\n但是這個還要一點時間。\n\n01:03.345 --> 01:24.853\n需要時間但是我們需要做好準備對吧因為我們已經必須要銜接國際我在3月的時候質詢了環境部長薛部長問他碳稅什麼時候可以上路薛部長說他認為2030年是一個不錯的時間點那氣候署的署長蔡麟也補充說初步規劃是2030我想請問彭部長您上任了對於這個規劃是不是還繼續延續前我們環境部的態度\n\n01:31.235 --> 01:47.934\n我個人其實沒有特別接觸到碳稅但是我還是跟我報告委員其實總量管制的碳交易就像EUETS或是美國等等的制度才是甚至連有些國家兩個國家雙軌並行所以部長我的意見是我們不管如何我們要做好規劃\n\n01:48.755 --> 01:48.855\n﹚黃珊珊\n\n02:09.463 --> 02:35.381\n但是如果給他一些胡蘿蔔他可能才會真正的做到但是碳費的機制上剛剛很多委員都說了公總在最近說你都沒有去溝通好或者環境部沒有溝通好我不知道我剛剛聽到說你會去溝通好我覺得是一件好事我們不會比業界更了解業界我們要知道他們要什麼如果他們只是要付一點點錢然後什麼東西都沒有沒有胡蘿蔔對他們來說也沒什麼用所以我要強調的是\n\n02:37.542 --> 02:51.034\n現在我看你提到的是美國的降低通貨法案裡面台灣政府我們可以轉型的胡蘿蔔的參考美國的法案每年要投入3750億做減碳投資同樣的台灣目前碳費的規劃還有將來碳稅的規劃有沒有做所謂你講的胡蘿蔔的轉型的投資計畫\n\n03:01.152 --> 03:08.975\n因為這個碳費現在還沒有正式起手,所以它的使用的用途還沒有在規劃。我們裡面就訂一個氣候轉型基金。你必須要一筆錢來協助企業包括受損失或影響失業的民眾做一個轉型。也就是說我們從碳費開始上路之後,其實政府應該有一個相對\n\n04:12.463 --> 04:12.763\n最後一個小問題\n\n04:36.072 --> 04:58.465\n我常常在說我們現在不斷的有台積電不斷的在國內擴廠我們環境部我們主管的所謂的環境影響評估什麼都緩什麼都平平水水力也要平但是就是電力不平我上次問了薛部長也就是說一個他要設一個廠對我們的電力評估夠不夠完全沒有在他們的環境影響評估裡面\n\n04:59.065 --> 04:59.105\n﹚黃珊珊﹚\n\n05:27.918 --> 05:53.420\n全國的民眾都在承擔這個經濟發展帶來對電的影響你同意吧?好這個我會請我們同仁來研究一下你就用環境影響評估裡面包括電力的評估我們將來的自主自主電力也應該成為企業他在設廠的時候一個要求這個我會請我們同仁來研究一下我現在只要告訴部長說如果你上任這個部分應該成為環境部的責任之一好謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝委員\n\n05:56.703 --> 05:58.908\n謝謝黃珊珊委員的發言我們先來休息10分鐘\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.569,"end":9.911,"text":"我看到您在就任之前的專訪其實非常高興第一個我想知道"},{"start":29.497,"end":39.497,"text":"﹗"},{"start":40.029,"end":40.449,"text":"但是這個還要一點時間。"},{"start":63.345,"end":84.853,"text":"需要時間但是我們需要做好準備對吧因為我們已經必須要銜接國際我在3月的時候質詢了環境部長薛部長問他碳稅什麼時候可以上路薛部長說他認為2030年是一個不錯的時間點那氣候署的署長蔡麟也補充說初步規劃是2030我想請問彭部長您上任了對於這個規劃是不是還繼續延續前我們環境部的態度"},{"start":91.235,"end":107.934,"text":"我個人其實沒有特別接觸到碳稅但是我還是跟我報告委員其實總量管制的碳交易就像EU 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