{"id":152811,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152811","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d761033c2b5d280a049cdfe559183542c3b43bbf2d64d20173945d43fff3066385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:16:32 - 11:24:37","影片長度":"00:08:05","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":485,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T11:24:37+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T11:16:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":761,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時16分）謝謝主席，麻煩請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：彭部長好，繼續牛煦庭委員的議題，本席的選區跟牛委員是隔壁，如果有看到剛剛那個地圖，林口火力發電廠在林口，三部機組火力全開。對於燃煤，G7七大工業國會議之前有做出結論，其中兩大非常關鍵的結論，部長記得嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：有，就是不再發表反核的言論，但是也尊重反核國家的選擇。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，還有承認核能是環保地位，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：這個是有列入建議。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，另外是2035年以前要淘汰燃煤發電。"],["彭部長啓明：對，有些國家有提出這樣的需求。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，他們共同承諾2035年以前要淘汰燃煤發電。本席也問過了，我們國家有沒有這樣的方向跟目標？你知道在2035年到達之後，全臺灣以台電來講，就經濟部的規劃，還有燃煤發電的電廠有哪些？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這是台電的職掌，我不能代它回答。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是碳排最大嘛，因為你剛剛講台電是我們碳排最大的部分，本席也要再詢問，且今天很多委員一定都會討論碳費的徵收，對不對？千呼萬喚還沒有始出來，本來應該是今年年初就要出來的，但是也有些人推估這是不是太燙手山芋了，前一任部長看有沒有機會先幫您把這個燙手山芋給解除？但是並沒有！所以變成是您這邊要來揭開碳費，但是碳費到底怎麼樣？其實大家各自都有各自的立場。可是本席很認同一句話，既然我們要達到2050淨零碳排的目標，現在碳費的收取就有一個方向是要讓企業真的覺得痛，但是又能夠覺得做得到，這樣子才有辦法要求企業去遵守碳費，而且降低我們的碳排。","兩個部分，第一，到2035還剩下的燃煤發電廠就是林口火力發電廠，也會是臺灣燃煤最大量的一個發電機組，那它造成的碳排會不會也是最大？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實燒煤的排碳係數當然是比較高，但是您說的電廠其實它是超超臨界，相對之下它也比較潔淨……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是比起其他的發電方式，它還是最高嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對，當然是最高，天然氣只有它的一半。"],["洪委員孟楷：再來第二個部分是碳費，您這邊現在有討論到第4次的碳費費率審議會議在6月召開，你有信心碳費什麼時候出來嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實這個是委員會在做決定的，部長是沒有辦法決定要收多少錢、什麼時候要做出決定，我還是必須遵照……"],["洪委員孟楷：遵照委員會嘛，但之前部長都有講啊，都有講原本希望是上半年、原本希望是4月底，前一任部長講原本希望4月底能夠出來，後來沒有結果，又說希望是上半年，如果在6月召開的話，下半年有機會出來嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我相信依照目前的速度，如果加快一點進行的話，下半年應該可以出得來，但是我個人認為是不管有沒有出得來，其實趕快讓碳議價上路。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你也說希望趕快上路，且決定權不在你，但你已經上任兩天時間，大家也都很關心，也開始瞭解，請幕僚作業告訴你現在我們預期的碳費區間落在哪邊了，對吧？"],["彭部長啓明：目前還沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：你也還沒有詢問？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，因為這個是委員會在做決定，他們有試算不一樣的價錢。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！所以對區間你已經有一些掌握跟理解了？"],["彭部長啓明：是，大概有一點點。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，你也提過為什麼現在大家方方面面提到，就是因為企業也會有碳焦慮，企業也會擔心如果真的太高，沒有辦法接受，所以國發會也說要請環境部先來跟企業溝通，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：是，已經在進行了。"],["洪委員孟楷：已經在進行了，你現在是用什麼樣的方式進行？是個別找企業？環境部每個官員認幾個企業個別去跟企業溝通？還是找企業來做小組的會議討論、政策說明？到目前為止，我們沒有看到相關的會議記錄啊！"],["彭部長啓明：有、有，其實從5月10日開始，大概每幾天，甚至未來這兩天都還有一場溝通的座談，就是針對那三個子法的草案都有跟企業說明，主要是針對各個工會，委員關心的電子業或半導體業，或是對紡織業、造紙業、水泥業都有在進行。"],["洪委員孟楷：預計要開幾場？"],["彭部長啓明：總共要7場，現在大概已經有6場了，明天還會有1場。"],["洪委員孟楷：針對這些部分有沒有相關會議紀錄？可不可以提供給本席？"],["彭部長啓明：沒問題，我們會請主辦單位提供。"],["洪委員孟楷：最後請教部長，您自己本身會不會跟企業溝通？"],["彭部長啓明：我當然會去溝通。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候要找企業來喝咖啡？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我來自臺灣氣候聯盟，係屬科技業，我已經辭掉工作了，科技業他們碳定價的標準其實遠超過原來大家設想的很多，所以其實我必須說那500家企業，有的是真的要我們幫忙的，有些已經走得很前面了，其實所有人都在碳焦慮，我覺得可以再讓大家更清楚一點點。"],["洪委員孟楷：就是因為要讓大家更清楚，部長您講到這個重點了，其實本席也說早在2022年，我們已經看到一些金融業及一些相關產業，他們也認為要跟國際接軌，所以已經走在比較前面了，但是到現在2024年，我們中華民國臺灣在氣候相關的法令訂定之後，到目前我們都還是沒有把它給訂定出來，也因此我們才會講到底什麼時候我們要踏出這一步，這一步不容易，但是既然我們講了，其實剛剛您講的一個說法，我也認同，發電是我們大家共同承擔，因為大家共同用電，能源也是選擇，所以沒有哪一個能源特別好或特別不好，但就是選擇你要的是什麼樣的價值。所以有人講核能的優點是在於低碳排，但是你要解決相關的問題，你要解決相關的疑慮，這就是選擇啊！但絕對不要去污名化任何一個發電方式，當然最重要的是到底我們什麼時候要踏出那一步，讓大家一起來負責，是吧？"],["彭部長啓明：是。其實我也沒有污名化核能或各種的能源。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是有些人、有心人就會刻意污名化，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：我如果以環境部長的立場，當然就是要以安全，核廢料必須能夠妥善的處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然！任何一種發電方式都要安全，任何一種發電方式也都有後續的問題，包括也有人講太陽能板，20年後那些板要怎麼處理？這都是問題嘛！部長，我現在只是希望我們第一次的對談是理性、專業，我們也希望在您任內的每一天都持續用這種專業理性的態度來討論，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：沒問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝部長。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席（王委員正旭代）：謝謝洪孟楷委員的發言。","下一位請伍麗華委員發言，伍麗華委員、伍麗華委員、伍麗華委員，伍麗華委員不在。","下一位請洪申翰委員發言。洪委員請。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳菁徽","王正旭","涂權吉","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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00:01:53,135\n台電經濟部的規劃還有藍莓發電的電廠有哪些目前這個其實報告委員這個是台電的這個執掌這個我必須但是碳排最大嘛因為你剛講台電是我們碳排最大一個部分以及本席也要再詢問今天很多委員一定都會討論就是碳費的徵收對不對千呼萬喚還沒有使出來本來應該是今年年初就要出來的但是也有些人推估說是不是這個太燙手山芋了\n\n5\n00:01:54,096 --> 00:02:21,761\n前一任部長看有沒有機會先幫您把這碳守山域給解除那沒有所以變成是您這邊要來揭開碳費那但是碳費到底怎麼樣其實大家各自都有各自的立場可是本席很認同一句話既然我們要達到2050淨零碳排的一個目標現在碳費的一個收取就有一個方向是要讓企業真的覺得痛但是又能夠覺得做得到\n\n6\n00:02:22,827 --> 00:02:45,928\n那這樣子才有辦法說要求企業他們去遵守這個碳費而且降低我們的碳排嘛好兩個部分第一2035藍煤還剩的發電廠就是林口火力發電廠也會是台灣藍煤最大量的一個發電機組那它造成的碳排會不會是最大\n\n7\n00:02:47,649 --> 00:03:09,223\n報告委員其實這個探牌燒煤的這個排炭係數當然是比較高但是那個你說的電廠它其實是超超臨界相對之下它也比較接近但是比起其他的發電方式它還是最高嗎對當然是最高然後天然氣再來第二個部分探費您這邊現在有討論到第4次的探費費率審議會議6月召開那\n\n8\n00:03:12,185 --> 00:03:39,838\n有信心探費什麼時候出來?報告委員其實這個是委員會在就決定的我部長是沒有辦法去決定要收多少錢什麼時候要有做出決定出來的我還是必須遵照遵照委員會嘛但是之前部長都有講啊都有講是說原本希望是上半年原本希望是4月底前一任部長講說原本希望4月底能夠出來後來沒有結果又說希望是上半年那現在\n\n9\n00:03:40,999 --> 00:04:00,540\n六月召開的話,下半年有機會出來嗎?我相信依照目前的速度應該如果加快一點進行的話應該是下半年應該可以出的來但是我個人認為是有沒有出的來,其實趕快讓他進一下上路決定,你也是說希望趕快上路,決定全不在你\n\n10\n00:04:01,465 --> 00:04:26,224\n但是你應該上任兩天的時間大家也都很關心也開始瞭解請幕僚作業告訴你說現在我們預期探費的這個區間落在哪邊了對吧目前還沒有你也還沒有去詢問沒有沒有這因為這個是委員會在做是啊他們有四算不一樣的價錢是對所以說區間你已經有一些掌握跟理解了大概有一點點是不是是好\n\n11\n00:04:26,724 --> 00:04:53,581\n你也提過為什麼現在大家方方面面提到就是因為企業也會有碳焦慮企業會擔心說如果說真的太高我沒有辦法接受所以現在就說也應該要請國發會也說要請環境部先來跟企業溝通是不是是已經在進行了已經在進行你現在是用什麼樣的方式進行是個別找企業我們環境部每個\n\n12\n00:04:54,608 --> 00:05:00,884\n官員任幾個企業各別去跟企業溝通還是找企業來做小組的會議討論政策說明\n\n13\n00:05:04,719 --> 00:05:32,892\n到目前為止我們沒有看到相關的會議紀錄有有有其實從5月10號開始大概沒幾天甚至未來這兩天都還有一個這個所謂的溝通的座談就是三個執法其實針對那三個執法的草案的說明都有跟企業那主要是針對各個工會委員關係的電子業或是半導體業或是說所謂的這個紡織業、造紙業、水泥業都有在進行預計要開幾場總共要七場七場對現在已經大概有已經有六場了那明天還會有一場對\n\n14\n00:05:34,272 --> 00:06:00,266\n是不是針對這些部分有沒有相關會議記錄可不可以提供給本席好沒問題我們會請主辦長會提供好那最後部長本身您自己會不會跟企業來做溝通我當然會溝通好什麼時候要找這個企業來喝咖啡其實報告委員我來自臺灣氣候聯盟他是科技業我已經辭掉工作了這個科技業其實他們的探定價的標準其實是遠超過原來大家設想的很多\n\n15\n00:06:00,526 --> 00:06:17,631\n所以其實我必須說那500家企業有的是真的要我們幫忙的有些呢已經走得很前面了所以其實所有人都在探焦慮我覺得可以再讓大家更清楚一點點就是因為讓大家更清楚對部長您講到這個重點其實本席也說在早在2022年\n\n16\n00:06:19,071 --> 00:06:40,264\n我們已經有看到有一些金融業有一些相關產業他也認為是說他要跟國際接軌所以他已經走在比較前面了但是到現在2024年台灣我們中華民國在氣候相關的法令訂立之後到目前我們都還是沒有把它給訂立出來也因此我們才會講是說到底什麼時候我們要走踏出這一步這一步不容易\n\n17\n00:06:41,084 --> 00:07:09,462\n但是既然我們講了其實剛剛您講的一個說法我也認同啊發電是我們大家共同承認的大家共同用電嘛能源也是選擇所以沒有哪一個能源說特別好或特別不好但就是選擇你要的是什麼樣的價值嘛所以有人講說核能它的優點是在於是低碳排但是你要解決相關的問題你要解決相關的疑慮這就是選擇啊但絕對不要去汙名化任何一個發電方式\n\n18\n00:07:10,407 --> 00:07:24,552\n那以及最重要的是到我們什麼時候要踏出那一步讓大家一起來負責是吧是我也沒有無名化核能或各種的能源但是有些人有心人就會刻意無名化嗎\n\n19\n00:07:25,669 --> 00:07:44,487\n是不是我如果以環境部長的立場當然就是要以安全然後必須和廢料能夠妥善的處理當然每一個人都一定任何一種發電方式都要安全對任何一種發電方式也都有後續的問題包括有人講太陽能板20年後那一些板要怎麼處理\n\n20\n00:07:46,084 --> 00:07:46,164\n謝謝我們的發言\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9878\t30254\t主席謝謝麻煩請彭部長 請彭部長 彭部長好 繼續牛水庭委員本席的選區跟牛水庭委員是隔壁然後剛剛的那個地圖如果有看到的話林口火力發電廠在林口三部機組火力全開 藍莓\n33241\t60219\tG7七大工業國會議之前有作出結論其中兩大非常關鍵的結論部長你記得嗎有就是他不再發表反核的言論但是呢其實也尊重反核國家的選擇是但還有承認核能是環保的地位對不對這個是他有列入他的建議好那另外2035年以前要淘汰藍莓發電\n63139\t82498\t對這個有些國家有提出這樣的需求是他們共同承諾2035年以前要淘汰藍莓發電那本席也問過了就說我們國家有沒有這樣的一個方向跟目標您知道在2035年到達之後全台灣以現在\n84172\t113135\t台電經濟部的規劃還有藍莓發電的電廠有哪些目前這個其實報告委員這個是台電的這個執掌這個我必須但是碳排最大嘛因為你剛講台電是我們碳排最大一個部分以及本席也要再詢問今天很多委員一定都會討論就是碳費的徵收對不對千呼萬喚還沒有使出來本來應該是今年年初就要出來的但是也有些人推估說是不是這個太燙手山芋了\n114096\t141761\t前一任部長看有沒有機會先幫您把這碳守山域給解除那沒有所以變成是您這邊要來揭開碳費那但是碳費到底怎麼樣其實大家各自都有各自的立場可是本席很認同一句話既然我們要達到2050淨零碳排的一個目標現在碳費的一個收取就有一個方向是要讓企業真的覺得痛但是又能夠覺得做得到\n142827\t165928\t那這樣子才有辦法說要求企業他們去遵守這個碳費而且降低我們的碳排嘛好兩個部分第一2035藍煤還剩的發電廠就是林口火力發電廠也會是台灣藍煤最大量的一個發電機組那它造成的碳排會不會是最大\n167649\t189223\t報告委員其實這個探牌燒煤的這個排炭係數當然是比較高但是那個你說的電廠它其實是超超臨界相對之下它也比較接近但是比起其他的發電方式它還是最高嗎對當然是最高然後天然氣再來第二個部分探費您這邊現在有討論到第4次的探費費率審議會議6月召開那\n192185\t219838\t有信心探費什麼時候出來?報告委員其實這個是委員會在就決定的我部長是沒有辦法去決定要收多少錢什麼時候要有做出決定出來的我還是必須遵照遵照委員會嘛但是之前部長都有講啊都有講是說原本希望是上半年原本希望是4月底前一任部長講說原本希望4月底能夠出來後來沒有結果又說希望是上半年那現在\n220999\t240540\t六月召開的話,下半年有機會出來嗎?我相信依照目前的速度應該如果加快一點進行的話應該是下半年應該可以出的來但是我個人認為是有沒有出的來,其實趕快讓他進一下上路決定,你也是說希望趕快上路,決定全不在你\n241465\t266224\t但是你應該上任兩天的時間大家也都很關心也開始瞭解請幕僚作業告訴你說現在我們預期探費的這個區間落在哪邊了對吧目前還沒有你也還沒有去詢問沒有沒有這因為這個是委員會在做是啊他們有四算不一樣的價錢是對所以說區間你已經有一些掌握跟理解了大概有一點點是不是是好\n266724\t293581\t你也提過為什麼現在大家方方面面提到就是因為企業也會有碳焦慮企業會擔心說如果說真的太高我沒有辦法接受所以現在就說也應該要請國發會也說要請環境部先來跟企業溝通是不是是已經在進行了已經在進行你現在是用什麼樣的方式進行是個別找企業我們環境部每個\n294608\t300884\t官員任幾個企業各別去跟企業溝通還是找企業來做小組的會議討論政策說明\n304719\t332892\t到目前為止我們沒有看到相關的會議紀錄有有有其實從5月10號開始大概沒幾天甚至未來這兩天都還有一個這個所謂的溝通的座談就是三個執法其實針對那三個執法的草案的說明都有跟企業那主要是針對各個工會委員關係的電子業或是半導體業或是說所謂的這個紡織業、造紙業、水泥業都有在進行預計要開幾場總共要七場七場對現在已經大概有已經有六場了那明天還會有一場對\n334272\t360266\t是不是針對這些部分有沒有相關會議記錄可不可以提供給本席好沒問題我們會請主辦長會提供好那最後部長本身您自己會不會跟企業來做溝通我當然會溝通好什麼時候要找這個企業來喝咖啡其實報告委員我來自臺灣氣候聯盟他是科技業我已經辭掉工作了這個科技業其實他們的探定價的標準其實是遠超過原來大家設想的很多\n360526\t377631\t所以其實我必須說那500家企業有的是真的要我們幫忙的有些呢已經走得很前面了所以其實所有人都在探焦慮我覺得可以再讓大家更清楚一點點就是因為讓大家更清楚對部長您講到這個重點其實本席也說在早在2022年\n379071\t400264\t我們已經有看到有一些金融業有一些相關產業他也認為是說他要跟國際接軌所以他已經走在比較前面了但是到現在2024年台灣我們中華民國在氣候相關的法令訂立之後到目前我們都還是沒有把它給訂立出來也因此我們才會講是說到底什麼時候我們要走踏出這一步這一步不容易\n401084\t429462\t但是既然我們講了其實剛剛您講的一個說法我也認同啊發電是我們大家共同承認的大家共同用電嘛能源也是選擇所以沒有哪一個能源說特別好或特別不好但就是選擇你要的是什麼樣的價值嘛所以有人講說核能它的優點是在於是低碳排但是你要解決相關的問題你要解決相關的疑慮這就是選擇啊但絕對不要去汙名化任何一個發電方式\n430407\t444552\t那以及最重要的是到我們什麼時候要踏出那一步讓大家一起來負責是吧是我也沒有無名化核能或各種的能源但是有些人有心人就會刻意無名化嗎\n445669\t464487\t是不是我如果以環境部長的立場當然就是要以安全然後必須和廢料能夠妥善的處理當然每一個人都一定任何一種發電方式都要安全對任何一種發電方式也都有後續的問題包括有人講太陽能板20年後那一些板要怎麼處理\n466084\t466164\t謝謝我們的發言\n","txt":"主席謝謝麻煩請彭部長 請彭部長 彭部長好 繼續牛水庭委員本席的選區跟牛水庭委員是隔壁然後剛剛的那個地圖如果有看到的話林口火力發電廠在林口三部機組火力全開 藍莓\nG7七大工業國會議之前有作出結論其中兩大非常關鍵的結論部長你記得嗎有就是他不再發表反核的言論但是呢其實也尊重反核國家的選擇是但還有承認核能是環保的地位對不對這個是他有列入他的建議好那另外2035年以前要淘汰藍莓發電\n對這個有些國家有提出這樣的需求是他們共同承諾2035年以前要淘汰藍莓發電那本席也問過了就說我們國家有沒有這樣的一個方向跟目標您知道在2035年到達之後全台灣以現在\n台電經濟部的規劃還有藍莓發電的電廠有哪些目前這個其實報告委員這個是台電的這個執掌這個我必須但是碳排最大嘛因為你剛講台電是我們碳排最大一個部分以及本席也要再詢問今天很多委員一定都會討論就是碳費的徵收對不對千呼萬喚還沒有使出來本來應該是今年年初就要出來的但是也有些人推估說是不是這個太燙手山芋了\n前一任部長看有沒有機會先幫您把這碳守山域給解除那沒有所以變成是您這邊要來揭開碳費那但是碳費到底怎麼樣其實大家各自都有各自的立場可是本席很認同一句話既然我們要達到2050淨零碳排的一個目標現在碳費的一個收取就有一個方向是要讓企業真的覺得痛但是又能夠覺得做得到\n那這樣子才有辦法說要求企業他們去遵守這個碳費而且降低我們的碳排嘛好兩個部分第一2035藍煤還剩的發電廠就是林口火力發電廠也會是台灣藍煤最大量的一個發電機組那它造成的碳排會不會是最大\n報告委員其實這個探牌燒煤的這個排炭係數當然是比較高但是那個你說的電廠它其實是超超臨界相對之下它也比較接近但是比起其他的發電方式它還是最高嗎對當然是最高然後天然氣再來第二個部分探費您這邊現在有討論到第4次的探費費率審議會議6月召開那\n有信心探費什麼時候出來?報告委員其實這個是委員會在就決定的我部長是沒有辦法去決定要收多少錢什麼時候要有做出決定出來的我還是必須遵照遵照委員會嘛但是之前部長都有講啊都有講是說原本希望是上半年原本希望是4月底前一任部長講說原本希望4月底能夠出來後來沒有結果又說希望是上半年那現在\n六月召開的話,下半年有機會出來嗎?我相信依照目前的速度應該如果加快一點進行的話應該是下半年應該可以出的來但是我個人認為是有沒有出的來,其實趕快讓他進一下上路決定,你也是說希望趕快上路,決定全不在你\n但是你應該上任兩天的時間大家也都很關心也開始瞭解請幕僚作業告訴你說現在我們預期探費的這個區間落在哪邊了對吧目前還沒有你也還沒有去詢問沒有沒有這因為這個是委員會在做是啊他們有四算不一樣的價錢是對所以說區間你已經有一些掌握跟理解了大概有一點點是不是是好\n你也提過為什麼現在大家方方面面提到就是因為企業也會有碳焦慮企業會擔心說如果說真的太高我沒有辦法接受所以現在就說也應該要請國發會也說要請環境部先來跟企業溝通是不是是已經在進行了已經在進行你現在是用什麼樣的方式進行是個別找企業我們環境部每個\n官員任幾個企業各別去跟企業溝通還是找企業來做小組的會議討論政策說明\n到目前為止我們沒有看到相關的會議紀錄有有有其實從5月10號開始大概沒幾天甚至未來這兩天都還有一個這個所謂的溝通的座談就是三個執法其實針對那三個執法的草案的說明都有跟企業那主要是針對各個工會委員關係的電子業或是半導體業或是說所謂的這個紡織業、造紙業、水泥業都有在進行預計要開幾場總共要七場七場對現在已經大概有已經有六場了那明天還會有一場對\n是不是針對這些部分有沒有相關會議記錄可不可以提供給本席好沒問題我們會請主辦長會提供好那最後部長本身您自己會不會跟企業來做溝通我當然會溝通好什麼時候要找這個企業來喝咖啡其實報告委員我來自臺灣氣候聯盟他是科技業我已經辭掉工作了這個科技業其實他們的探定價的標準其實是遠超過原來大家設想的很多\n所以其實我必須說那500家企業有的是真的要我們幫忙的有些呢已經走得很前面了所以其實所有人都在探焦慮我覺得可以再讓大家更清楚一點點就是因為讓大家更清楚對部長您講到這個重點其實本席也說在早在2022年\n我們已經有看到有一些金融業有一些相關產業他也認為是說他要跟國際接軌所以他已經走在比較前面了但是到現在2024年台灣我們中華民國在氣候相關的法令訂立之後到目前我們都還是沒有把它給訂立出來也因此我們才會講是說到底什麼時候我們要走踏出這一步這一步不容易\n但是既然我們講了其實剛剛您講的一個說法我也認同啊發電是我們大家共同承認的大家共同用電嘛能源也是選擇所以沒有哪一個能源說特別好或特別不好但就是選擇你要的是什麼樣的價值嘛所以有人講說核能它的優點是在於是低碳排但是你要解決相關的問題你要解決相關的疑慮這就是選擇啊但絕對不要去汙名化任何一個發電方式\n那以及最重要的是到我們什麼時候要踏出那一步讓大家一起來負責是吧是我也沒有無名化核能或各種的能源但是有些人有心人就會刻意無名化嗎\n是不是我如果以環境部長的立場當然就是要以安全然後必須和廢料能夠妥善的處理當然每一個人都一定任何一種發電方式都要安全對任何一種發電方式也都有後續的問題包括有人講太陽能板20年後那一些板要怎麼處理\n謝謝我們的發言\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.878 --> 00:30.254\n主席謝謝麻煩請彭部長請彭部長彭部長好繼續牛水庭委員本席的選區跟牛水庭委員是隔壁然後剛剛的那個地圖如果有看到的話林口火力發電廠在林口三部機組火力全開藍莓\n\n00:33.241 --> 01:00.219\nG7七大工業國會議之前有作出結論其中兩大非常關鍵的結論部長你記得嗎有就是他不再發表反核的言論但是呢其實也尊重反核國家的選擇是但還有承認核能是環保的地位對不對這個是他有列入他的建議好那另外2035年以前要淘汰藍莓發電\n\n01:03.139 --> 01:22.498\n對這個有些國家有提出這樣的需求是他們共同承諾2035年以前要淘汰藍莓發電那本席也問過了就說我們國家有沒有這樣的一個方向跟目標您知道在2035年到達之後全台灣以現在\n\n01:24.172 --> 01:53.135\n台電經濟部的規劃還有藍莓發電的電廠有哪些目前這個其實報告委員這個是台電的這個執掌這個我必須但是碳排最大嘛因為你剛講台電是我們碳排最大一個部分以及本席也要再詢問今天很多委員一定都會討論就是碳費的徵收對不對千呼萬喚還沒有使出來本來應該是今年年初就要出來的但是也有些人推估說是不是這個太燙手山芋了\n\n01:54.096 --> 02:21.761\n前一任部長看有沒有機會先幫您把這碳守山域給解除那沒有所以變成是您這邊要來揭開碳費那但是碳費到底怎麼樣其實大家各自都有各自的立場可是本席很認同一句話既然我們要達到2050淨零碳排的一個目標現在碳費的一個收取就有一個方向是要讓企業真的覺得痛但是又能夠覺得做得到\n\n02:22.827 --> 02:45.928\n那這樣子才有辦法說要求企業他們去遵守這個碳費而且降低我們的碳排嘛好兩個部分第一2035藍煤還剩的發電廠就是林口火力發電廠也會是台灣藍煤最大量的一個發電機組那它造成的碳排會不會是最大\n\n02:47.649 --> 03:09.223\n報告委員其實這個探牌燒煤的這個排炭係數當然是比較高但是那個你說的電廠它其實是超超臨界相對之下它也比較接近但是比起其他的發電方式它還是最高嗎對當然是最高然後天然氣再來第二個部分探費您這邊現在有討論到第4次的探費費率審議會議6月召開那\n\n03:12.185 --> 03:39.838\n有信心探費什麼時候出來?報告委員其實這個是委員會在就決定的我部長是沒有辦法去決定要收多少錢什麼時候要有做出決定出來的我還是必須遵照遵照委員會嘛但是之前部長都有講啊都有講是說原本希望是上半年原本希望是4月底前一任部長講說原本希望4月底能夠出來後來沒有結果又說希望是上半年那現在\n\n03:40.999 --> 04:00.540\n六月召開的話,下半年有機會出來嗎?我相信依照目前的速度應該如果加快一點進行的話應該是下半年應該可以出的來但是我個人認為是有沒有出的來,其實趕快讓他進一下上路決定,你也是說希望趕快上路,決定全不在你\n\n04:01.465 --> 04:26.224\n但是你應該上任兩天的時間大家也都很關心也開始瞭解請幕僚作業告訴你說現在我們預期探費的這個區間落在哪邊了對吧目前還沒有你也還沒有去詢問沒有沒有這因為這個是委員會在做是啊他們有四算不一樣的價錢是對所以說區間你已經有一些掌握跟理解了大概有一點點是不是是好\n\n04:26.724 --> 04:53.581\n你也提過為什麼現在大家方方面面提到就是因為企業也會有碳焦慮企業會擔心說如果說真的太高我沒有辦法接受所以現在就說也應該要請國發會也說要請環境部先來跟企業溝通是不是是已經在進行了已經在進行你現在是用什麼樣的方式進行是個別找企業我們環境部每個\n\n04:54.608 --> 05:00.884\n官員任幾個企業各別去跟企業溝通還是找企業來做小組的會議討論政策說明\n\n05:04.719 --> 05:32.892\n到目前為止我們沒有看到相關的會議紀錄有有有其實從5月10號開始大概沒幾天甚至未來這兩天都還有一個這個所謂的溝通的座談就是三個執法其實針對那三個執法的草案的說明都有跟企業那主要是針對各個工會委員關係的電子業或是半導體業或是說所謂的這個紡織業、造紙業、水泥業都有在進行預計要開幾場總共要七場七場對現在已經大概有已經有六場了那明天還會有一場對\n\n05:34.272 --> 06:00.266\n是不是針對這些部分有沒有相關會議記錄可不可以提供給本席好沒問題我們會請主辦長會提供好那最後部長本身您自己會不會跟企業來做溝通我當然會溝通好什麼時候要找這個企業來喝咖啡其實報告委員我來自臺灣氣候聯盟他是科技業我已經辭掉工作了這個科技業其實他們的探定價的標準其實是遠超過原來大家設想的很多\n\n06:00.526 --> 06:17.631\n所以其實我必須說那500家企業有的是真的要我們幫忙的有些呢已經走得很前面了所以其實所有人都在探焦慮我覺得可以再讓大家更清楚一點點就是因為讓大家更清楚對部長您講到這個重點其實本席也說在早在2022年\n\n06:19.071 --> 06:40.264\n我們已經有看到有一些金融業有一些相關產業他也認為是說他要跟國際接軌所以他已經走在比較前面了但是到現在2024年台灣我們中華民國在氣候相關的法令訂立之後到目前我們都還是沒有把它給訂立出來也因此我們才會講是說到底什麼時候我們要走踏出這一步這一步不容易\n\n06:41.084 --> 07:09.462\n但是既然我們講了其實剛剛您講的一個說法我也認同啊發電是我們大家共同承認的大家共同用電嘛能源也是選擇所以沒有哪一個能源說特別好或特別不好但就是選擇你要的是什麼樣的價值嘛所以有人講說核能它的優點是在於是低碳排但是你要解決相關的問題你要解決相關的疑慮這就是選擇啊但絕對不要去汙名化任何一個發電方式\n\n07:10.407 --> 07:24.552\n那以及最重要的是到我們什麼時候要踏出那一步讓大家一起來負責是吧是我也沒有無名化核能或各種的能源但是有些人有心人就會刻意無名化嗎\n\n07:25.669 --> 07:44.487\n是不是我如果以環境部長的立場當然就是要以安全然後必須和廢料能夠妥善的處理當然每一個人都一定任何一種發電方式都要安全對任何一種發電方式也都有後續的問題包括有人講太陽能板20年後那一些板要怎麼處理\n\n07:46.084 --> 07:46.164\n謝謝我們的發言\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.878,"end":30.254,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請彭部長 請彭部長 彭部長好 繼續牛水庭委員本席的選區跟牛水庭委員是隔壁然後剛剛的那個地圖如果有看到的話林口火力發電廠在林口三部機組火力全開 藍莓"},{"start":33.241,"end":60.219,"text":"G7七大工業國會議之前有作出結論其中兩大非常關鍵的結論部長你記得嗎有就是他不再發表反核的言論但是呢其實也尊重反核國家的選擇是但還有承認核能是環保的地位對不對這個是他有列入他的建議好那另外2035年以前要淘汰藍莓發電"},{"start":63.139,"end":82.498,"text":"對這個有些國家有提出這樣的需求是他們共同承諾2035年以前要淘汰藍莓發電那本席也問過了就說我們國家有沒有這樣的一個方向跟目標您知道在2035年到達之後全台灣以現在"},{"start":84.172,"end":113.135,"text":"台電經濟部的規劃還有藍莓發電的電廠有哪些目前這個其實報告委員這個是台電的這個執掌這個我必須但是碳排最大嘛因為你剛講台電是我們碳排最大一個部分以及本席也要再詢問今天很多委員一定都會討論就是碳費的徵收對不對千呼萬喚還沒有使出來本來應該是今年年初就要出來的但是也有些人推估說是不是這個太燙手山芋了"},{"start":114.096,"end":141.761,"text":"前一任部長看有沒有機會先幫您把這碳守山域給解除那沒有所以變成是您這邊要來揭開碳費那但是碳費到底怎麼樣其實大家各自都有各自的立場可是本席很認同一句話既然我們要達到2050淨零碳排的一個目標現在碳費的一個收取就有一個方向是要讓企業真的覺得痛但是又能夠覺得做得到"},{"start":142.827,"end":165.928,"text":"那這樣子才有辦法說要求企業他們去遵守這個碳費而且降低我們的碳排嘛好兩個部分第一2035藍煤還剩的發電廠就是林口火力發電廠也會是台灣藍煤最大量的一個發電機組那它造成的碳排會不會是最大"},{"start":167.649,"end":189.223,"text":"報告委員其實這個探牌燒煤的這個排炭係數當然是比較高但是那個你說的電廠它其實是超超臨界相對之下它也比較接近但是比起其他的發電方式它還是最高嗎對當然是最高然後天然氣再來第二個部分探費您這邊現在有討論到第4次的探費費率審議會議6月召開那"},{"start":192.185,"end":219.838,"text":"有信心探費什麼時候出來?報告委員其實這個是委員會在就決定的我部長是沒有辦法去決定要收多少錢什麼時候要有做出決定出來的我還是必須遵照遵照委員會嘛但是之前部長都有講啊都有講是說原本希望是上半年原本希望是4月底前一任部長講說原本希望4月底能夠出來後來沒有結果又說希望是上半年那現在"},{"start":220.999,"end":240.54,"text":"六月召開的話,下半年有機會出來嗎?我相信依照目前的速度應該如果加快一點進行的話應該是下半年應該可以出的來但是我個人認為是有沒有出的來,其實趕快讓他進一下上路決定,你也是說希望趕快上路,決定全不在你"},{"start":241.465,"end":266.224,"text":"但是你應該上任兩天的時間大家也都很關心也開始瞭解請幕僚作業告訴你說現在我們預期探費的這個區間落在哪邊了對吧目前還沒有你也還沒有去詢問沒有沒有這因為這個是委員會在做是啊他們有四算不一樣的價錢是對所以說區間你已經有一些掌握跟理解了大概有一點點是不是是好"},{"start":266.724,"end":293.581,"text":"你也提過為什麼現在大家方方面面提到就是因為企業也會有碳焦慮企業會擔心說如果說真的太高我沒有辦法接受所以現在就說也應該要請國發會也說要請環境部先來跟企業溝通是不是是已經在進行了已經在進行你現在是用什麼樣的方式進行是個別找企業我們環境部每個"},{"start":294.608,"end":300.884,"text":"官員任幾個企業各別去跟企業溝通還是找企業來做小組的會議討論政策說明"},{"start":304.719,"end":332.892,"text":"到目前為止我們沒有看到相關的會議紀錄有有有其實從5月10號開始大概沒幾天甚至未來這兩天都還有一個這個所謂的溝通的座談就是三個執法其實針對那三個執法的草案的說明都有跟企業那主要是針對各個工會委員關係的電子業或是半導體業或是說所謂的這個紡織業、造紙業、水泥業都有在進行預計要開幾場總共要七場七場對現在已經大概有已經有六場了那明天還會有一場對"},{"start":334.272,"end":360.266,"text":"是不是針對這些部分有沒有相關會議記錄可不可以提供給本席好沒問題我們會請主辦長會提供好那最後部長本身您自己會不會跟企業來做溝通我當然會溝通好什麼時候要找這個企業來喝咖啡其實報告委員我來自臺灣氣候聯盟他是科技業我已經辭掉工作了這個科技業其實他們的探定價的標準其實是遠超過原來大家設想的很多"},{"start":360.526,"end":377.631,"text":"所以其實我必須說那500家企業有的是真的要我們幫忙的有些呢已經走得很前面了所以其實所有人都在探焦慮我覺得可以再讓大家更清楚一點點就是因為讓大家更清楚對部長您講到這個重點其實本席也說在早在2022年"},{"start":379.071,"end":400.264,"text":"我們已經有看到有一些金融業有一些相關產業他也認為是說他要跟國際接軌所以他已經走在比較前面了但是到現在2024年台灣我們中華民國在氣候相關的法令訂立之後到目前我們都還是沒有把它給訂立出來也因此我們才會講是說到底什麼時候我們要走踏出這一步這一步不容易"},{"start":401.084,"end":429.462,"text":"但是既然我們講了其實剛剛您講的一個說法我也認同啊發電是我們大家共同承認的大家共同用電嘛能源也是選擇所以沒有哪一個能源說特別好或特別不好但就是選擇你要的是什麼樣的價值嘛所以有人講說核能它的優點是在於是低碳排但是你要解決相關的問題你要解決相關的疑慮這就是選擇啊但絕對不要去汙名化任何一個發電方式"},{"start":430.407,"end":444.552,"text":"那以及最重要的是到我們什麼時候要踏出那一步讓大家一起來負責是吧是我也沒有無名化核能或各種的能源但是有些人有心人就會刻意無名化嗎"},{"start":445.669,"end":464.487,"text":"是不是我如果以環境部長的立場當然就是要以安全然後必須和廢料能夠妥善的處理當然每一個人都一定任何一種發電方式都要安全對任何一種發電方式也都有後續的問題包括有人講太陽能板20年後那一些板要怎麼處理"},{"start":466.084,"end":466.164,"text":"謝謝我們的發言"}]}}}}