{"id":152812,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152812","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d827f6bfc8cec933149cdfe559183542c3b43bbf2d64d2017af027823a2ae2feb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:24:52 - 11:35:42","影片長度":"00:10:50","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":650,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T11:35:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T11:24:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":809,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時24分）謝謝主席，請環境部彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，因為時間有限，所以我還是直接跟你進入主題，即便今天是你第一次來到委員會。我今天主要想跟部長討論的，還是針對在520前環境部公布的三個子法，這跟整體碳定價有高度相關的三個子法，當然我今天沒有想要跟部長討論碳費高低的數字問題，但我認為可能大家必須要來重新檢視目前公布的幾個子法是否合理、它的完備性跟邏輯上面的問題。","我想先問部長，之前國發會在公布淨零十二項關鍵戰略的時候，其實有提出2030年國家自定貢獻（NDC）減排目標為24%正負1%，目前恐怕已經快到要公布第三階段的時間點。我想部長當然很清楚知道，在環境部手上跟淨零有關最重要的工具恐怕就是Carbon pricing，就是碳定價的部分，部長覺得如果在環境部的碳定價政策推出之後，能夠對這24%正負1%帶來什麼樣貢獻？能不能有更積極的目標？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，如果就第三階段的管制目標，其實我們看國際很多國家都達不到，那我們也必須好好去檢視未來我們的路徑，包括過去這幾年會如何及未來會如何，其實我會用更開放的角度來看這個事情。至於碳費到底能不能達到？說真的，以現在國人的認知來說，我是覺得有一點困難，會有多大的效果還是必須去討論。"],["洪委員申翰：我今天跟部長問這個問題的原因，第一個我們當然希望碳費或者碳定價這個工具在淨零的工作上面能夠發揮到更大的效益，對目標能夠更清楚的往前推進，我覺得這是一個重點。因為我們在十二大戰略裡面，我一直覺得很可惜沒有把碳定價給放進去，沒有放進這十二大裡面。接下來我要問的事情，我知道現在在碳費收費辦法裡面，其實有設定所謂高碳洩漏風險事業，這個分成三期，風險係數值分別為0.2、0.4、0.6，坦白說，這個數字出來也引起社會很多的討論，大家看了「哇」一聲，因為打兩折！很多人直接這樣解讀。我想先問部長，這三個參數是來自什麼樣的依據？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我有特別針對這個問題問我們的團隊，大概就是有參考比如新加坡、日本、韓國或是歐盟的數字。"],["洪委員申翰：有沒有計算的公式？就是這三個數字是從哪裡來的？不是只是參考，而是怎麼算出來的？"],["彭部長啓明：這個就是銜接歐盟的CBAM，它有類似的算法。"],["洪委員申翰：可以提供相對應的三個參數的產生方式嗎？因為我之前有跟環境部要，環境部說他們還不知道，還要回去查一查，當時是這樣跟我講的。這可以提供嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["洪委員申翰：今天下班前應該就可以提供，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我有發現這個是很多國家在執行的細節，所以我有特別請我們施委員還有帶環境部的研究組……"],["洪委員申翰：我就是要細節。"],["彭部長啓明：對，要去國外去好好瞭解，因為不見得網路上有公布。"],["洪委員申翰：所以我現在問這三個參數是如何產生的？怎麼訂出來的細節？我就是要這個細節，今天或者這禮拜好不好？這禮拜提供到我的辦公室好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有問題。"],["洪委員申翰：這是第一件事情。第二件事情，我看到這三個參數裡面分第一期、第二期、第三期，請問這一期大概是多久時間？包括流程為何？"],["蔡署長玲儀：報告委員，因為這個子法在訂定，我們未來會跟著費率及整個實施的情況來做討論。"],["洪委員申翰：每一期有沒有訂定清楚的條件？達到什麼條件可以進到下一期？或達到什麼時間可以進到下一期？不然你分期沒有意義啊！"],["蔡署長玲儀：是，跟委員報告，這整個會包括碳費徵收對象的起徵點，然後會跟費率的逐期上升都會有連動。"],["洪委員申翰：署長，我知道有連動，當然有連動，但是你們可以把參數訂定出來，代表你們對其條件是有評估的。所以每一期設定的條件是什麼？我到了這個條件，我就進到下一期，所以你要跟大家講。你要嘛講時間，要嘛跟大家講明確的條件是什麼，不然大家會問啊，會不會永遠都在第一期？條件是什麼？"],["蔡署長玲儀：目前就是……"],["洪委員申翰：照理來說，邏輯上面來說，如果沒有條件，其實你設定不出參數啊！就算是歐盟有設定期別的參數，它也是跟隨著清楚的條件。"],["蔡署長玲儀：跟委員報告，因為我們的這個高碳洩漏的係數其實有一個前提，就是這些徵收對象都必須要提出自主減量計畫。"],["洪委員申翰：是，但是你設定的參數必定是綁著條件嘛，不然怎麼會有參數呢？現在有條件嗎？"],["蔡署長玲儀：現在最主要這個參數的設計其實是參考歐盟期別的規範。"],["洪委員申翰：署長，但是我要跟你提醒，今天如果只有參數而沒有條件，大家不會對這一整套的機制跟這個時間軸的流程感到信服跟信任，你們應該要把條件給講清楚，你要嘛講條件，要嘛講時間。比如兩年是第一期，兩年後第二期，你要嘛給個時間的period，要嘛給清楚的具體條件，這事情講出來，大家才會認為你的參數是有道理的。這部分沒有問題吧？"],["蔡署長玲儀：是，跟委員報告，因為現在這個子法在預告當中，委員的提醒，我們會把它放進來做討論。"],["洪委員申翰：署長，照理來說，其實在預告的時候就應該把條件給公布了，大家才能夠正確理解這個參數是什麼意思。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這其實每一個環節都需要一個專業團隊，我也發現他們人力顯著的不足，我會來加強。"],["洪委員申翰：是。第二個事情我要提醒，其實我們這裡面也包括智慧性減量的部分，我想大家都知道，其實我們在討論智慧性減量的時候，很重要的概念一定是接軌國際，其實所有的在跟你討論碳權或者是減量額度裡面一個很重要的概念就是外加性，我想大家都知道，這個外加性其實在國際的重要的標準，包括Verra、VCS或Gold Standard都很清楚對於外加性的定義。我要問部長，現在我們在減量額度上面的外加性的要求，我們願不願意接軌國際？"],["彭部長啓明：我絕對是願意接軌國際。"],["洪委員申翰：好，我覺得這很重要喔！因為這是讓我們碳權市場不會落入過於浮濫，甚至劣幣驅逐良幣，我想部長對這部分是專家，你很清楚，所以今天部長在這邊承諾，我們對於減量額度的外加性定義是接軌重要的，至少Verra或Gold Standard，我覺得這個立場要踩住，有沒有問題？"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝，沒有問題。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，最後一個問題，我們看到你的高洩漏風險，其實你有訂定一個不同期數的參數，可是我們都知道氣候法裡面有另外一項工具是優惠費率，請問剛剛的碳洩漏風險的打折跟優惠費率之間這兩個是什麼關係？"],["彭部長啓明：其實這裡面就是，例如水泥業可能有從國外進口進來，會影響到本國，所以委員提到一個問題……"],["洪委員申翰：這兩個都變成是一種費率的折扣喔！"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯。"],["洪委員申翰：我不討論費率高低，但這兩個都折扣，會不會有哪一家企業既享有高洩漏風險的打折，甚至打到0.2，但它同時又能夠拿到優惠費率的大幅折扣？會不會這兩者同時會出現？"],["彭部長啓明：有可能。"],["洪委員申翰：那為什麼我們要用這兩個工具？這兩個工具代表的意義是什麼？它們之間的關係是什麼？"],["施次長文真：很快速跟委員報告，就是我們當初設計碳洩漏風險的前提是希望它能夠提自主減量計畫，達到指定目標，所以當它如果提自主減量計畫，有指定目標的時候，我們的法制就是給優惠費率，這樣子的做法其實比歐盟直接給免費配額……"],["洪委員申翰：次長，我現在要問你一個問題，會不會甚至有些企業拿到的費率是原本訂定的1折，因為它已經打了0.2，就是兩折囉，甚至優惠費率再下去就剩下1折，會不會有這個狀況？"],["施次長文真：如果這個企業可以提SBT的指定目標，那它的優惠費率確實我們希望給予獎勵，所以折扣會是……"],["洪委員申翰：次長，我這邊還是要把我們的立場再重申一次。很簡單，今天要給優惠費率，其實過去在修法的時候，這就是一個爭議的工具，今天要使用這個爭議工具，只有唯一一個可以接受的目的，就是你用了之後可以加速這個企業事業體的轉型，而不是放鬆它在碳定價裡面的承擔，所以我們要能夠確認，你要給它優惠費率或給它打折，你怎麼確認它是提出了加速轉型的計畫，而且這個轉型的計畫怎麼被稽核及怎麼被audit？這是關鍵，我覺得這是這幾個打折的工具上面最重要的前提，而不是變成讓它放鬆它上面的承擔，反而如果放鬆承擔，它可能是放緩轉型。在加速轉型跟放緩轉型之間，就在於我們這些政策工具使用的條件是什麼、我們使用的前提是什麼，我覺得這部分要非常非常清楚的稽核。我不是說不能優惠，我知道現在優惠已經入法了，可是在使用的條件上面要明確的訂定，不然我們很容易被外界認為我們是對某些高排放的企業在放水，反而透過低的費率讓它變成是放緩轉型的政策，我覺得從環境部的立場，這是大家不能接受的。次長或部長，這立場應該沒有問題吧？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有問題、沒有問題，這個我們會來研商，然後相關的資料會再給委員會。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我知道你們接下來還有好幾場的審議委員會，我認為這個立場是應該踩住、踩死的，我認為這是合理的事情。這個立場就算對產業來說都是合理的事，我們是要拿來加速轉型，所以你要確認到底它提出的加速轉型計畫是什麼，而不是拿到優惠費率之後就鬆了一口氣，沒有問題吧？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有問題，謝謝委員。"],["洪委員申翰：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員的發言。","今天沒有臨時提案需要處理。","下一位我們請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳菁徽","王正旭","涂權吉","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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\"start\": 647.906, \"end\": 648.047, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 648.047, \"end\": 648.147, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 648.147, \"end\": 648.167, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 648.167, \"end\": 648.187, \"score\": 0.472}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,328 --> 00:00:07,488\n國務委員好\n\n2\n00:00:14,652 --> 00:00:36,152\n部長因為時間有限所以我還是直接跟你進入即便是今天是你第一次來到委員會那我今天主要跟你講跟部長討論的還是針對在520前環境部公佈的三個執法那這個跟探定整體的探定價有高度的相關的三個執法當然我今天沒有想要跟部長來討論探費的高低這個數字的問題\n\n3\n00:00:40,151 --> 00:00:48,284\n但我認為可能大家必須要來重新檢視目前公布的幾個執法他是否合理他的完備性跟他的邏輯上面的問題\n\n4\n00:00:49,537 --> 00:01:10,146\n我想先問部長之前國發會在公布這個近零十二項關鍵戰略的時候其實有提出說2030年的國家自定義貢獻有NDC其實目標是24正負1那目前其實恐怕已經快要到要公布第三階段的時間點部長我想請問\n\n5\n00:01:12,028 --> 00:01:27,085\n我希望部長大家很清楚知道其實在環境部手上跟精靈有關最重要的工具恐怕就是碳定價的部分所以部長你覺得如果在環境部的碳定價的政策推出之後能夠對這24正負1帶來什麼樣貢獻能不能有更積極的目標\n\n6\n00:01:30,835 --> 00:01:51,541\n報告委員其實如果要第三階段的管制目標現在如果我們看國際的國際很多地方很多國家都打不到那我們也必須去好好去檢視說未來的我們路徑過去這幾年如何未來會如何其實我會用更開放的角度來看這個事情那碳費到底能不能達到說真的我\n\n7\n00:01:52,881 --> 00:02:19,148\n其實他以現在或是國人的認知來說的話我是覺得有一點困難能不能有得到的效果還是必須去討論我今天跟你問這個問題的原因是因為第一個我們當然希望探費或者是探定價這個工具在淨零的工作上面能夠發揮到更大的效益能夠對目標有一個更清楚的往前的推進這是重點我覺得這是一個重點因為我們在十二大戰略裡面我一直覺得很可惜\n\n8\n00:02:50,988 --> 00:03:14,595\n這三個參數是來自什麼樣的依據?其實這個我有特別針對這個問題問我們的團隊其實大概就是有參考比如說新加坡、日本、韓國或是歐盟的這個數字那我們計算的公式就是說這三個數字是從哪裡來的不是只是參考喔是怎麼算出來的這個就是銜接歐盟的CBAN它有類似的算法\n\n9\n00:03:15,051 --> 00:03:38,476\n那可以提供相對應的這個三個參數的產生的方式因為我之前有跟環境部要環境部說他們還不知道還要回去查一查當時是這樣跟我講的這可以提供嗎這今天下班前應該就可以提供好不好報委員其實我有發現這個是很多國家他在執行的細節所以我有特別請我們司委員還有帶環境部的我就是要細節我就是要細節對要去國外去好好瞭解因為不見得有網路上有公佈\n\n10\n00:03:39,296 --> 00:03:57,490\n所以我現在說這三個數字這三個參數如何產生的怎麼定出來的細節我就知道這細節那今天或者這禮拜好不好這禮拜提供到我的辦公室好不好沒有問題這第一個事情第二件事情我看到這三個參數裡面分第一期第二期第三期請問這一期大概是多久時間\n\n11\n00:03:59,976 --> 00:04:03,718\n每一期有沒有定清楚的條件我達到什麼條件我進到下一期或我達到什麼時間進到下一期不然你分期沒有意義啊\n\n12\n00:04:20,615 --> 00:04:37,832\n是,跟委員報告這個整個會包括我們的這個碳費的這個徵收對象的這個起徵點然後會跟這個費率的主期的上升都會有聯動?處長我知道有聯動當然有聯動但是你們可以把參數定出來代表你們對於他的條件是有評估的\n\n13\n00:04:38,945 --> 00:05:06,440\n所以每一期設定的條件是什麼我到了這個條件我就進到下一期你要跟大家講你要嘛講時間要嘛跟大家講明確的條件是什麼不然大家會問啊你會不會永遠都在第一期條件是什麼目前是就是照理來說邏輯上面來說如果你沒有條件其實你設定不出參數啊就算是歐盟他有設定其別的參數他也是跟隨著清楚的條件啊\n\n14\n00:05:07,270 --> 00:05:21,446\n是,跟委員報告因為我們的這個高碳洩漏的係數其實它有一個前提是這一些徵收對象他都必須要提出自主減量計畫是,但是你設定的參數你必定一定是綁著條件嘛不然怎麼會有參數呢?\n\n15\n00:05:24,290 --> 00:05:41,187\n現在有條件嗎?現在最主要這個參數的設計其實是參考歐盟的這個級別的這個規劃是蘇長但是我要跟你提醒今天如果只有參數沒有條件大家不會對這一整套的機制跟這個時間軸的流程感到幸福跟信任的\n\n16\n00:05:42,403 --> 00:06:11,990\n你們應該要把條件給講清楚你要嘛講條件要嘛講時間我說兩年是第一期兩年後第二期你要嘛給個時間的period要嘛給清楚的具體的條件這事情講出來大家才會對你哦所以你的參數是有道理的這部分沒有問題吧是跟委員報告因為現在這個執法現在在預告當中那委員的提醒我們會把他放進來做討論市長照理來說其實在預告的時候就應該把條件給公佈了大家才能夠正確理解這個參數是什麼意思\n\n17\n00:06:14,252 --> 00:06:29,372\n這其實每一個環節都需要一個專業團隊所以我其實他們我也發現他們的人力減弱的不足我會來加強是那第二個事情我要提醒齁其實我們這裡面也包括我們資源性減量的部分我想大家都知道其實我們在討論資源性減量的時候很重要的概念一定是接軌國際\n\n18\n00:06:30,954 --> 00:06:54,382\n其實所有的在跟你討論探權或者是減量額度的裡面一個很重要的概念就是外加性我想大家都知道這個外加性其實在國際的重要的標準包括VERA、VCS或者是GOLDSTANDARD都有很清楚對外加性的定義的我要問部長現在我們在減量額度上面的外加性的要求我們願不願意接軌國際\n\n19\n00:06:55,424 --> 00:07:21,581\n我絕對是願意接軌復席但我覺得這很重要喔因為這是讓我們探權市場不會落入過於腐爛甚至劣幣驅逐良民我想這部長是專家很清楚所以今天部長在這邊承諾我們對於減量額度的外加性的定義是接軌重要的至少VERA或GOLDSTANDARD這是我覺得這個立場要踩住好沒問題謝謝沒問題好部長我最後一個問題\n\n20\n00:07:24,127 --> 00:07:37,037\n我們剛剛看到其實你的高洩漏風險其實你有訂了不同期數的參數可是我們都知道氣候法裡面有另外一項工具是優惠費率請問剛剛的碳洩漏風險的打折跟優惠費率之間這兩個是什麼關係\n\n21\n00:07:38,693 --> 00:08:06,154\n這個其實這裏面就是例如說水泥業他可能有國外從進口進來會影響到本國所以其實委員提到的一個問題這個我覺得這兩個都變成是一種費率的折扣我不討論費率高低但這兩個都折扣會不會有哪一家企業他既享有高洩漏風險的打折甚至打到0.2但他同時又能夠拿到優惠費率的大幅減量大幅折扣會不會同時這兩個會出現\n\n22\n00:08:09,138 --> 00:08:29,313\n為什麼我們要用這兩個工具?這兩個工具代表的意義是什麼?他們之間的關係是什麼?很快速跟委員報告就是我們當初設計碳洩漏風險的這個前提就是希望他能夠提自主減量計畫達到指定目標所以當他如果提自主減量計畫有指定目標的時候我們的法制就是給優惠費率\n\n23\n00:08:29,932 --> 00:08:46,200\n那這樣子的一個做法其實比歐盟直接給免費配合我現在問你一個問題會不會甚至有些企業他拿到的費率是原本定的一折因為他已經打了0.2就是兩折了甚至會費率再下去剩下一折\n\n24\n00:08:47,335 --> 00:08:53,158\n會不會有這個狀況?我這邊還是要把我們的立場再重申一次很簡單今天要給優惠費率這其實過去在修法的時候這就是一個爭議的工具\n\n25\n00:09:07,725 --> 00:09:33,478\n今天要使用這個爭議工具只有唯一一個可以接受的目的是你用了它可以加速這個事業體的轉型而不是放鬆它在探定價裡面的承擔所以我們要能夠確認你要給它優惠費率或給它打折你怎麼確認它是提出了加速轉型的計畫而且這個轉型的計畫怎麼被集合怎麼被audit\n\n26\n00:09:34,804 --> 00:09:45,374\n這是關鍵我覺得這是這幾個打折的工具上面我覺得最重要的前提而不是變成讓他放鬆他上面的承擔反而如果放鬆他的承擔他可能是放緩轉型\n\n27\n00:09:47,657 --> 00:10:09,235\n在加速轉型跟放緩轉型之間就在於我們這些政策工具使用的條件是什麼我們使用的前提是什麼我覺得這部分要非常非常清楚的集合我不是說不能優惠我知道現在這個優惠已經入法了可是在使用的條件上面要明確定定不然我們很容易被外界認為我們是對某些高排放的企業在放水\n\n28\n00:10:10,325 --> 00:10:39,363\n反而透過低的費率讓他變成是放緩轉型的政策我覺得從環境部的立場這是大家不能接受的市長或部長這個立場應該沒有問題吧沒有問題這個我們會來延商然後相關的資料會再給我延商部長我知道你們接下來還有好幾場的這個審議委員會我認為這個立場是應該踩住踩死的我認為這是合理的事情這個立場就算對產業來說都是合理的事我們是要拿來加速轉型所以你要確認他到底他提出的加速轉型計畫是什麼\n\n29\n00:10:40,305 --> 00:10:48,187\n而不是說我拿到優惠費率我就鬆了一口氣。好,謝謝。沒有問題吧?沒有問題。好,部長謝謝。謝謝。好,謝謝洪申翰委員的發言。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7328\t7488\t國務委員好\n14652\t36152\t部長因為時間有限所以我還是直接跟你進入即便是今天是你第一次來到委員會那我今天主要跟你講跟部長討論的還是針對在520前環境部公佈的三個執法那這個跟探定整體的探定價有高度的相關的三個執法當然我今天沒有想要跟部長來討論探費的高低這個數字的問題\n40151\t48284\t但我認為可能大家必須要來重新檢視目前公布的幾個執法他是否合理他的完備性跟他的邏輯上面的問題\n49537\t70146\t我想先問部長之前國發會在公布這個近零十二項關鍵戰略的時候其實有提出說2030年的國家自定義貢獻有NDC其實目標是24正負1那目前其實恐怕已經快要到要公布第三階段的時間點部長我想請問\n72028\t87085\t我希望部長大家很清楚知道其實在環境部手上跟精靈有關最重要的工具恐怕就是碳定價的部分所以部長你覺得如果在環境部的碳定價的政策推出之後能夠對這24正負1帶來什麼樣貢獻能不能有更積極的目標\n90835\t111541\t報告委員其實如果要第三階段的管制目標現在如果我們看國際的國際很多地方很多國家都打不到那我們也必須去好好去檢視說未來的我們路徑過去這幾年如何未來會如何其實我會用更開放的角度來看這個事情那碳費到底能不能達到說真的我\n112881\t139148\t其實他以現在或是國人的認知來說的話我是覺得有一點困難能不能有得到的效果還是必須去討論我今天跟你問這個問題的原因是因為第一個我們當然希望探費或者是探定價這個工具在淨零的工作上面能夠發揮到更大的效益能夠對目標有一個更清楚的往前的推進這是重點我覺得這是一個重點因為我們在十二大戰略裡面我一直覺得很可惜\n139548\t169548\t﹚\n170988\t194595\t這三個參數是來自什麼樣的依據?其實這個我有特別針對這個問題問我們的團隊其實大概就是有參考比如說新加坡、日本、韓國或是歐盟的這個數字那我們計算的公式就是說這三個數字是從哪裡來的不是只是參考喔是怎麼算出來的這個就是銜接歐盟的CBAN它有類似的算法\n195051\t218476\t那可以提供相對應的這個三個參數的產生的方式因為我之前有跟環境部要環境部說他們還不知道還要回去查一查當時是這樣跟我講的這可以提供嗎這今天下班前應該就可以提供好不好報委員其實我有發現這個是很多國家他在執行的細節所以我有特別請我們司委員還有帶環境部的我就是要細節我就是要細節對要去國外去好好瞭解因為不見得有網路上有公佈\n219296\t237490\t所以我現在說這三個數字這三個參數如何產生的怎麼定出來的細節我就知道這細節那今天或者這禮拜好不好這禮拜提供到我的辦公室好不好沒有問題這第一個事情第二件事情我看到這三個參數裡面分第一期第二期第三期請問這一期大概是多久時間\n239976\t243718\t每一期有沒有定清楚的條件我達到什麼條件我進到下一期或我達到什麼時間進到下一期不然你分期沒有意義啊\n260615\t277832\t是,跟委員報告這個整個會包括我們的這個碳費的這個徵收對象的這個起徵點然後會跟這個費率的主期的上升都會有聯動?處長我知道有聯動當然有聯動但是你們可以把參數定出來代表你們對於他的條件是有評估的\n278945\t306440\t所以每一期設定的條件是什麼我到了這個條件我就進到下一期你要跟大家講你要嘛講時間要嘛跟大家講明確的條件是什麼不然大家會問啊你會不會永遠都在第一期條件是什麼目前是就是照理來說邏輯上面來說如果你沒有條件其實你設定不出參數啊就算是歐盟他有設定其別的參數他也是跟隨著清楚的條件啊\n307270\t321446\t是,跟委員報告因為我們的這個高碳洩漏的係數其實它有一個前提是這一些徵收對象他都必須要提出自主減量計畫是,但是你設定的參數你必定一定是綁著條件嘛不然怎麼會有參數呢?\n324290\t341187\t現在有條件嗎?現在最主要這個參數的設計其實是參考歐盟的這個級別的這個規劃是 蘇長但是我要跟你提醒今天如果只有參數沒有條件大家不會對這一整套的機制跟這個時間軸的流程感到幸福跟信任的\n342403\t371990\t你們應該要把條件給講清楚你要嘛講條件要嘛講時間我說兩年是第一期兩年後第二期你要嘛給個時間的period要嘛給清楚的具體的條件這事情講出來大家才會對你哦所以你的參數是有道理的這部分沒有問題吧是跟委員報告因為現在這個執法現在在預告當中那委員的提醒我們會把他放進來做討論市長照理來說其實在預告的時候就應該把條件給公佈了大家才能夠正確理解這個參數是什麼意思\n374252\t389372\t這其實每一個環節都需要一個專業團隊所以我其實他們我也發現他們的人力減弱的不足我會來加強是那第二個事情我要提醒齁其實我們這裡面也包括我們資源性減量的部分我想大家都知道其實我們在討論資源性減量的時候很重要的概念一定是接軌國際\n390954\t414382\t其實所有的在跟你討論探權或者是減量額度的裡面一個很重要的概念就是外加性我想大家都知道這個外加性其實在國際的重要的標準包括VERA、VCS或者是GOLD STANDARD都有很清楚對外加性的定義的我要問部長現在我們在減量額度上面的外加性的要求我們願不願意接軌國際\n415424\t441581\t我絕對是願意接軌復席但我覺得這很重要喔因為這是讓我們探權市場不會落入過於腐爛甚至劣幣驅逐良民我想這部長是專家很清楚所以今天部長在這邊承諾我們對於減量額度的外加性的定義是接軌重要的至少VERA或GOLD STANDARD這是我覺得這個立場要踩住好沒問題謝謝沒問題好部長我最後一個問題\n444127\t457037\t我們剛剛看到其實你的高洩漏風險其實你有訂了不同期數的參數可是我們都知道氣候法裡面有另外一項工具是優惠費率請問剛剛的碳洩漏風險的打折跟優惠費率之間這兩個是什麼關係\n458693\t486154\t這個其實這裏面就是例如說水泥業他可能有國外從進口進來會影響到本國所以其實委員提到的一個問題這個我覺得這兩個都變成是一種費率的折扣我不討論費率高低但這兩個都折扣會不會有哪一家企業他既享有高洩漏風險的打折甚至打到0.2但他同時又能夠拿到優惠費率的大幅減量大幅折扣會不會同時這兩個會出現\n489138\t509313\t為什麼我們要用這兩個工具?這兩個工具代表的意義是什麼?他們之間的關係是什麼?很快速跟委員報告就是我們當初設計碳洩漏風險的這個前提就是希望他能夠提自主減量計畫達到指定目標所以當他如果提自主減量計畫有指定目標的時候我們的法制就是給優惠費率\n509932\t526200\t那這樣子的一個做法其實比歐盟直接給免費配合我現在問你一個問題會不會甚至有些企業他拿到的費率是原本定的一折因為他已經打了0.2就是兩折了甚至會費率再下去剩下一折\n527335\t533158\t會不會有這個狀況?我這邊還是要把我們的立場再重申一次很簡單今天要給優惠費率這其實過去在修法的時候這就是一個爭議的工具\n547725\t573478\t今天要使用這個爭議工具只有唯一一個可以接受的目的是你用了它可以加速這個事業體的轉型而不是放鬆它在探定價裡面的承擔所以我們要能夠確認你要給它優惠費率或給它打折你怎麼確認它是提出了加速轉型的計畫而且這個轉型的計畫怎麼被集合怎麼被audit\n574804\t585374\t這是關鍵我覺得這是這幾個打折的工具上面我覺得最重要的前提而不是變成讓他放鬆他上面的承擔反而如果放鬆他的承擔他可能是放緩轉型\n587657\t609235\t在加速轉型跟放緩轉型之間就在於我們這些政策工具使用的條件是什麼我們使用的前提是什麼我覺得這部分要非常非常清楚的集合我不是說不能優惠我知道現在這個優惠已經入法了可是在使用的條件上面要明確定定不然我們很容易被外界認為我們是對某些高排放的企業在放水\n610325\t639363\t反而透過低的費率讓他變成是放緩轉型的政策我覺得從環境部的立場這是大家不能接受的市長或部長這個立場應該沒有問題吧沒有問題這個我們會來延商然後相關的資料會再給我延商部長我知道你們接下來還有好幾場的這個審議委員會我認為這個立場是應該踩住踩死的我認為這是合理的事情這個立場就算對產業來說都是合理的事我們是要拿來加速轉型所以你要確認他到底他提出的加速轉型計畫是什麼\n640305\t648187\t而不是說我拿到優惠費率我就鬆了一口氣。好,謝謝。沒有問題吧?沒有問題。好,部長謝謝。謝謝。好,謝謝洪申翰委員的發言。\n","txt":"國務委員好\n部長因為時間有限所以我還是直接跟你進入即便是今天是你第一次來到委員會那我今天主要跟你講跟部長討論的還是針對在520前環境部公佈的三個執法那這個跟探定整體的探定價有高度的相關的三個執法當然我今天沒有想要跟部長來討論探費的高低這個數字的問題\n但我認為可能大家必須要來重新檢視目前公布的幾個執法他是否合理他的完備性跟他的邏輯上面的問題\n我想先問部長之前國發會在公布這個近零十二項關鍵戰略的時候其實有提出說2030年的國家自定義貢獻有NDC其實目標是24正負1那目前其實恐怕已經快要到要公布第三階段的時間點部長我想請問\n我希望部長大家很清楚知道其實在環境部手上跟精靈有關最重要的工具恐怕就是碳定價的部分所以部長你覺得如果在環境部的碳定價的政策推出之後能夠對這24正負1帶來什麼樣貢獻能不能有更積極的目標\n報告委員其實如果要第三階段的管制目標現在如果我們看國際的國際很多地方很多國家都打不到那我們也必須去好好去檢視說未來的我們路徑過去這幾年如何未來會如何其實我會用更開放的角度來看這個事情那碳費到底能不能達到說真的我\n其實他以現在或是國人的認知來說的話我是覺得有一點困難能不能有得到的效果還是必須去討論我今天跟你問這個問題的原因是因為第一個我們當然希望探費或者是探定價這個工具在淨零的工作上面能夠發揮到更大的效益能夠對目標有一個更清楚的往前的推進這是重點我覺得這是一個重點因為我們在十二大戰略裡面我一直覺得很可惜\n﹚\n這三個參數是來自什麼樣的依據?其實這個我有特別針對這個問題問我們的團隊其實大概就是有參考比如說新加坡、日本、韓國或是歐盟的這個數字那我們計算的公式就是說這三個數字是從哪裡來的不是只是參考喔是怎麼算出來的這個就是銜接歐盟的CBAN它有類似的算法\n那可以提供相對應的這個三個參數的產生的方式因為我之前有跟環境部要環境部說他們還不知道還要回去查一查當時是這樣跟我講的這可以提供嗎這今天下班前應該就可以提供好不好報委員其實我有發現這個是很多國家他在執行的細節所以我有特別請我們司委員還有帶環境部的我就是要細節我就是要細節對要去國外去好好瞭解因為不見得有網路上有公佈\n所以我現在說這三個數字這三個參數如何產生的怎麼定出來的細節我就知道這細節那今天或者這禮拜好不好這禮拜提供到我的辦公室好不好沒有問題這第一個事情第二件事情我看到這三個參數裡面分第一期第二期第三期請問這一期大概是多久時間\n每一期有沒有定清楚的條件我達到什麼條件我進到下一期或我達到什麼時間進到下一期不然你分期沒有意義啊\n是,跟委員報告這個整個會包括我們的這個碳費的這個徵收對象的這個起徵點然後會跟這個費率的主期的上升都會有聯動?處長我知道有聯動當然有聯動但是你們可以把參數定出來代表你們對於他的條件是有評估的\n所以每一期設定的條件是什麼我到了這個條件我就進到下一期你要跟大家講你要嘛講時間要嘛跟大家講明確的條件是什麼不然大家會問啊你會不會永遠都在第一期條件是什麼目前是就是照理來說邏輯上面來說如果你沒有條件其實你設定不出參數啊就算是歐盟他有設定其別的參數他也是跟隨著清楚的條件啊\n是,跟委員報告因為我們的這個高碳洩漏的係數其實它有一個前提是這一些徵收對象他都必須要提出自主減量計畫是,但是你設定的參數你必定一定是綁著條件嘛不然怎麼會有參數呢?\n現在有條件嗎?現在最主要這個參數的設計其實是參考歐盟的這個級別的這個規劃是 蘇長但是我要跟你提醒今天如果只有參數沒有條件大家不會對這一整套的機制跟這個時間軸的流程感到幸福跟信任的\n你們應該要把條件給講清楚你要嘛講條件要嘛講時間我說兩年是第一期兩年後第二期你要嘛給個時間的period要嘛給清楚的具體的條件這事情講出來大家才會對你哦所以你的參數是有道理的這部分沒有問題吧是跟委員報告因為現在這個執法現在在預告當中那委員的提醒我們會把他放進來做討論市長照理來說其實在預告的時候就應該把條件給公佈了大家才能夠正確理解這個參數是什麼意思\n這其實每一個環節都需要一個專業團隊所以我其實他們我也發現他們的人力減弱的不足我會來加強是那第二個事情我要提醒齁其實我們這裡面也包括我們資源性減量的部分我想大家都知道其實我們在討論資源性減量的時候很重要的概念一定是接軌國際\n其實所有的在跟你討論探權或者是減量額度的裡面一個很重要的概念就是外加性我想大家都知道這個外加性其實在國際的重要的標準包括VERA、VCS或者是GOLD STANDARD都有很清楚對外加性的定義的我要問部長現在我們在減量額度上面的外加性的要求我們願不願意接軌國際\n我絕對是願意接軌復席但我覺得這很重要喔因為這是讓我們探權市場不會落入過於腐爛甚至劣幣驅逐良民我想這部長是專家很清楚所以今天部長在這邊承諾我們對於減量額度的外加性的定義是接軌重要的至少VERA或GOLD STANDARD這是我覺得這個立場要踩住好沒問題謝謝沒問題好部長我最後一個問題\n我們剛剛看到其實你的高洩漏風險其實你有訂了不同期數的參數可是我們都知道氣候法裡面有另外一項工具是優惠費率請問剛剛的碳洩漏風險的打折跟優惠費率之間這兩個是什麼關係\n這個其實這裏面就是例如說水泥業他可能有國外從進口進來會影響到本國所以其實委員提到的一個問題這個我覺得這兩個都變成是一種費率的折扣我不討論費率高低但這兩個都折扣會不會有哪一家企業他既享有高洩漏風險的打折甚至打到0.2但他同時又能夠拿到優惠費率的大幅減量大幅折扣會不會同時這兩個會出現\n為什麼我們要用這兩個工具?這兩個工具代表的意義是什麼?他們之間的關係是什麼?很快速跟委員報告就是我們當初設計碳洩漏風險的這個前提就是希望他能夠提自主減量計畫達到指定目標所以當他如果提自主減量計畫有指定目標的時候我們的法制就是給優惠費率\n那這樣子的一個做法其實比歐盟直接給免費配合我現在問你一個問題會不會甚至有些企業他拿到的費率是原本定的一折因為他已經打了0.2就是兩折了甚至會費率再下去剩下一折\n會不會有這個狀況?我這邊還是要把我們的立場再重申一次很簡單今天要給優惠費率這其實過去在修法的時候這就是一個爭議的工具\n今天要使用這個爭議工具只有唯一一個可以接受的目的是你用了它可以加速這個事業體的轉型而不是放鬆它在探定價裡面的承擔所以我們要能夠確認你要給它優惠費率或給它打折你怎麼確認它是提出了加速轉型的計畫而且這個轉型的計畫怎麼被集合怎麼被audit\n這是關鍵我覺得這是這幾個打折的工具上面我覺得最重要的前提而不是變成讓他放鬆他上面的承擔反而如果放鬆他的承擔他可能是放緩轉型\n在加速轉型跟放緩轉型之間就在於我們這些政策工具使用的條件是什麼我們使用的前提是什麼我覺得這部分要非常非常清楚的集合我不是說不能優惠我知道現在這個優惠已經入法了可是在使用的條件上面要明確定定不然我們很容易被外界認為我們是對某些高排放的企業在放水\n反而透過低的費率讓他變成是放緩轉型的政策我覺得從環境部的立場這是大家不能接受的市長或部長這個立場應該沒有問題吧沒有問題這個我們會來延商然後相關的資料會再給我延商部長我知道你們接下來還有好幾場的這個審議委員會我認為這個立場是應該踩住踩死的我認為這是合理的事情這個立場就算對產業來說都是合理的事我們是要拿來加速轉型所以你要確認他到底他提出的加速轉型計畫是什麼\n而不是說我拿到優惠費率我就鬆了一口氣。好,謝謝。沒有問題吧?沒有問題。好,部長謝謝。謝謝。好,謝謝洪申翰委員的發言。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.328 --> 00:07.488\n國務委員好\n\n00:14.652 --> 00:36.152\n部長因為時間有限所以我還是直接跟你進入即便是今天是你第一次來到委員會那我今天主要跟你講跟部長討論的還是針對在520前環境部公佈的三個執法那這個跟探定整體的探定價有高度的相關的三個執法當然我今天沒有想要跟部長來討論探費的高低這個數字的問題\n\n00:40.151 --> 00:48.284\n但我認為可能大家必須要來重新檢視目前公布的幾個執法他是否合理他的完備性跟他的邏輯上面的問題\n\n00:49.537 --> 01:10.146\n我想先問部長之前國發會在公布這個近零十二項關鍵戰略的時候其實有提出說2030年的國家自定義貢獻有NDC其實目標是24正負1那目前其實恐怕已經快要到要公布第三階段的時間點部長我想請問\n\n01:12.028 --> 01:27.085\n我希望部長大家很清楚知道其實在環境部手上跟精靈有關最重要的工具恐怕就是碳定價的部分所以部長你覺得如果在環境部的碳定價的政策推出之後能夠對這24正負1帶來什麼樣貢獻能不能有更積極的目標\n\n01:30.835 --> 01:51.541\n報告委員其實如果要第三階段的管制目標現在如果我們看國際的國際很多地方很多國家都打不到那我們也必須去好好去檢視說未來的我們路徑過去這幾年如何未來會如何其實我會用更開放的角度來看這個事情那碳費到底能不能達到說真的我\n\n01:52.881 --> 02:19.148\n其實他以現在或是國人的認知來說的話我是覺得有一點困難能不能有得到的效果還是必須去討論我今天跟你問這個問題的原因是因為第一個我們當然希望探費或者是探定價這個工具在淨零的工作上面能夠發揮到更大的效益能夠對目標有一個更清楚的往前的推進這是重點我覺得這是一個重點因為我們在十二大戰略裡面我一直覺得很可惜\n\n02:50.988 --> 03:14.595\n這三個參數是來自什麼樣的依據?其實這個我有特別針對這個問題問我們的團隊其實大概就是有參考比如說新加坡、日本、韓國或是歐盟的這個數字那我們計算的公式就是說這三個數字是從哪裡來的不是只是參考喔是怎麼算出來的這個就是銜接歐盟的CBAN它有類似的算法\n\n03:15.051 --> 03:38.476\n那可以提供相對應的這個三個參數的產生的方式因為我之前有跟環境部要環境部說他們還不知道還要回去查一查當時是這樣跟我講的這可以提供嗎這今天下班前應該就可以提供好不好報委員其實我有發現這個是很多國家他在執行的細節所以我有特別請我們司委員還有帶環境部的我就是要細節我就是要細節對要去國外去好好瞭解因為不見得有網路上有公佈\n\n03:39.296 --> 03:57.490\n所以我現在說這三個數字這三個參數如何產生的怎麼定出來的細節我就知道這細節那今天或者這禮拜好不好這禮拜提供到我的辦公室好不好沒有問題這第一個事情第二件事情我看到這三個參數裡面分第一期第二期第三期請問這一期大概是多久時間\n\n03:59.976 --> 04:03.718\n每一期有沒有定清楚的條件我達到什麼條件我進到下一期或我達到什麼時間進到下一期不然你分期沒有意義啊\n\n04:20.615 --> 04:37.832\n是,跟委員報告這個整個會包括我們的這個碳費的這個徵收對象的這個起徵點然後會跟這個費率的主期的上升都會有聯動?處長我知道有聯動當然有聯動但是你們可以把參數定出來代表你們對於他的條件是有評估的\n\n04:38.945 --> 05:06.440\n所以每一期設定的條件是什麼我到了這個條件我就進到下一期你要跟大家講你要嘛講時間要嘛跟大家講明確的條件是什麼不然大家會問啊你會不會永遠都在第一期條件是什麼目前是就是照理來說邏輯上面來說如果你沒有條件其實你設定不出參數啊就算是歐盟他有設定其別的參數他也是跟隨著清楚的條件啊\n\n05:07.270 --> 05:21.446\n是,跟委員報告因為我們的這個高碳洩漏的係數其實它有一個前提是這一些徵收對象他都必須要提出自主減量計畫是,但是你設定的參數你必定一定是綁著條件嘛不然怎麼會有參數呢?\n\n05:24.290 --> 05:41.187\n現在有條件嗎?現在最主要這個參數的設計其實是參考歐盟的這個級別的這個規劃是蘇長但是我要跟你提醒今天如果只有參數沒有條件大家不會對這一整套的機制跟這個時間軸的流程感到幸福跟信任的\n\n05:42.403 --> 06:11.990\n你們應該要把條件給講清楚你要嘛講條件要嘛講時間我說兩年是第一期兩年後第二期你要嘛給個時間的period要嘛給清楚的具體的條件這事情講出來大家才會對你哦所以你的參數是有道理的這部分沒有問題吧是跟委員報告因為現在這個執法現在在預告當中那委員的提醒我們會把他放進來做討論市長照理來說其實在預告的時候就應該把條件給公佈了大家才能夠正確理解這個參數是什麼意思\n\n06:14.252 --> 06:29.372\n這其實每一個環節都需要一個專業團隊所以我其實他們我也發現他們的人力減弱的不足我會來加強是那第二個事情我要提醒齁其實我們這裡面也包括我們資源性減量的部分我想大家都知道其實我們在討論資源性減量的時候很重要的概念一定是接軌國際\n\n06:30.954 --> 06:54.382\n其實所有的在跟你討論探權或者是減量額度的裡面一個很重要的概念就是外加性我想大家都知道這個外加性其實在國際的重要的標準包括VERA、VCS或者是GOLDSTANDARD都有很清楚對外加性的定義的我要問部長現在我們在減量額度上面的外加性的要求我們願不願意接軌國際\n\n06:55.424 --> 07:21.581\n我絕對是願意接軌復席但我覺得這很重要喔因為這是讓我們探權市場不會落入過於腐爛甚至劣幣驅逐良民我想這部長是專家很清楚所以今天部長在這邊承諾我們對於減量額度的外加性的定義是接軌重要的至少VERA或GOLDSTANDARD這是我覺得這個立場要踩住好沒問題謝謝沒問題好部長我最後一個問題\n\n07:24.127 --> 07:37.037\n我們剛剛看到其實你的高洩漏風險其實你有訂了不同期數的參數可是我們都知道氣候法裡面有另外一項工具是優惠費率請問剛剛的碳洩漏風險的打折跟優惠費率之間這兩個是什麼關係\n\n07:38.693 --> 08:06.154\n這個其實這裏面就是例如說水泥業他可能有國外從進口進來會影響到本國所以其實委員提到的一個問題這個我覺得這兩個都變成是一種費率的折扣我不討論費率高低但這兩個都折扣會不會有哪一家企業他既享有高洩漏風險的打折甚至打到0.2但他同時又能夠拿到優惠費率的大幅減量大幅折扣會不會同時這兩個會出現\n\n08:09.138 --> 08:29.313\n為什麼我們要用這兩個工具?這兩個工具代表的意義是什麼?他們之間的關係是什麼?很快速跟委員報告就是我們當初設計碳洩漏風險的這個前提就是希望他能夠提自主減量計畫達到指定目標所以當他如果提自主減量計畫有指定目標的時候我們的法制就是給優惠費率\n\n08:29.932 --> 08:46.200\n那這樣子的一個做法其實比歐盟直接給免費配合我現在問你一個問題會不會甚至有些企業他拿到的費率是原本定的一折因為他已經打了0.2就是兩折了甚至會費率再下去剩下一折\n\n08:47.335 --> 08:53.158\n會不會有這個狀況?我這邊還是要把我們的立場再重申一次很簡單今天要給優惠費率這其實過去在修法的時候這就是一個爭議的工具\n\n09:07.725 --> 09:33.478\n今天要使用這個爭議工具只有唯一一個可以接受的目的是你用了它可以加速這個事業體的轉型而不是放鬆它在探定價裡面的承擔所以我們要能夠確認你要給它優惠費率或給它打折你怎麼確認它是提出了加速轉型的計畫而且這個轉型的計畫怎麼被集合怎麼被audit\n\n09:34.804 --> 09:45.374\n這是關鍵我覺得這是這幾個打折的工具上面我覺得最重要的前提而不是變成讓他放鬆他上面的承擔反而如果放鬆他的承擔他可能是放緩轉型\n\n09:47.657 --> 10:09.235\n在加速轉型跟放緩轉型之間就在於我們這些政策工具使用的條件是什麼我們使用的前提是什麼我覺得這部分要非常非常清楚的集合我不是說不能優惠我知道現在這個優惠已經入法了可是在使用的條件上面要明確定定不然我們很容易被外界認為我們是對某些高排放的企業在放水\n\n10:10.325 --> 10:39.363\n反而透過低的費率讓他變成是放緩轉型的政策我覺得從環境部的立場這是大家不能接受的市長或部長這個立場應該沒有問題吧沒有問題這個我們會來延商然後相關的資料會再給我延商部長我知道你們接下來還有好幾場的這個審議委員會我認為這個立場是應該踩住踩死的我認為這是合理的事情這個立場就算對產業來說都是合理的事我們是要拿來加速轉型所以你要確認他到底他提出的加速轉型計畫是什麼\n\n10:40.305 --> 10:48.187\n而不是說我拿到優惠費率我就鬆了一口氣。好,謝謝。沒有問題吧?沒有問題。好,部長謝謝。謝謝。好,謝謝洪申翰委員的發言。\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.328,"end":7.488,"text":"國務委員好"},{"start":14.652,"end":36.152,"text":"部長因為時間有限所以我還是直接跟你進入即便是今天是你第一次來到委員會那我今天主要跟你講跟部長討論的還是針對在520前環境部公佈的三個執法那這個跟探定整體的探定價有高度的相關的三個執法當然我今天沒有想要跟部長來討論探費的高低這個數字的問題"},{"start":40.151,"end":48.284,"text":"但我認為可能大家必須要來重新檢視目前公布的幾個執法他是否合理他的完備性跟他的邏輯上面的問題"},{"start":49.537,"end":70.146,"text":"我想先問部長之前國發會在公布這個近零十二項關鍵戰略的時候其實有提出說2030年的國家自定義貢獻有NDC其實目標是24正負1那目前其實恐怕已經快要到要公布第三階段的時間點部長我想請問"},{"start":72.028,"end":87.085,"text":"我希望部長大家很清楚知道其實在環境部手上跟精靈有關最重要的工具恐怕就是碳定價的部分所以部長你覺得如果在環境部的碳定價的政策推出之後能夠對這24正負1帶來什麼樣貢獻能不能有更積極的目標"},{"start":90.835,"end":111.541,"text":"報告委員其實如果要第三階段的管制目標現在如果我們看國際的國際很多地方很多國家都打不到那我們也必須去好好去檢視說未來的我們路徑過去這幾年如何未來會如何其實我會用更開放的角度來看這個事情那碳費到底能不能達到說真的我"},{"start":112.881,"end":139.148,"text":"其實他以現在或是國人的認知來說的話我是覺得有一點困難能不能有得到的效果還是必須去討論我今天跟你問這個問題的原因是因為第一個我們當然希望探費或者是探定價這個工具在淨零的工作上面能夠發揮到更大的效益能夠對目標有一個更清楚的往前的推進這是重點我覺得這是一個重點因為我們在十二大戰略裡面我一直覺得很可惜"},{"start":139.548,"end":169.548,"text":"﹚"},{"start":170.988,"end":194.595,"text":"這三個參數是來自什麼樣的依據?其實這個我有特別針對這個問題問我們的團隊其實大概就是有參考比如說新加坡、日本、韓國或是歐盟的這個數字那我們計算的公式就是說這三個數字是從哪裡來的不是只是參考喔是怎麼算出來的這個就是銜接歐盟的CBAN它有類似的算法"},{"start":195.051,"end":218.476,"text":"那可以提供相對應的這個三個參數的產生的方式因為我之前有跟環境部要環境部說他們還不知道還要回去查一查當時是這樣跟我講的這可以提供嗎這今天下班前應該就可以提供好不好報委員其實我有發現這個是很多國家他在執行的細節所以我有特別請我們司委員還有帶環境部的我就是要細節我就是要細節對要去國外去好好瞭解因為不見得有網路上有公佈"},{"start":219.296,"end":237.49,"text":"所以我現在說這三個數字這三個參數如何產生的怎麼定出來的細節我就知道這細節那今天或者這禮拜好不好這禮拜提供到我的辦公室好不好沒有問題這第一個事情第二件事情我看到這三個參數裡面分第一期第二期第三期請問這一期大概是多久時間"},{"start":239.976,"end":243.718,"text":"每一期有沒有定清楚的條件我達到什麼條件我進到下一期或我達到什麼時間進到下一期不然你分期沒有意義啊"},{"start":260.615,"end":277.832,"text":"是,跟委員報告這個整個會包括我們的這個碳費的這個徵收對象的這個起徵點然後會跟這個費率的主期的上升都會有聯動?處長我知道有聯動當然有聯動但是你們可以把參數定出來代表你們對於他的條件是有評估的"},{"start":278.945,"end":306.44,"text":"所以每一期設定的條件是什麼我到了這個條件我就進到下一期你要跟大家講你要嘛講時間要嘛跟大家講明確的條件是什麼不然大家會問啊你會不會永遠都在第一期條件是什麼目前是就是照理來說邏輯上面來說如果你沒有條件其實你設定不出參數啊就算是歐盟他有設定其別的參數他也是跟隨著清楚的條件啊"},{"start":307.27,"end":321.446,"text":"是,跟委員報告因為我們的這個高碳洩漏的係數其實它有一個前提是這一些徵收對象他都必須要提出自主減量計畫是,但是你設定的參數你必定一定是綁著條件嘛不然怎麼會有參數呢?"},{"start":324.29,"end":341.187,"text":"現在有條件嗎?現在最主要這個參數的設計其實是參考歐盟的這個級別的這個規劃是 蘇長但是我要跟你提醒今天如果只有參數沒有條件大家不會對這一整套的機制跟這個時間軸的流程感到幸福跟信任的"},{"start":342.403,"end":371.99,"text":"你們應該要把條件給講清楚你要嘛講條件要嘛講時間我說兩年是第一期兩年後第二期你要嘛給個時間的period要嘛給清楚的具體的條件這事情講出來大家才會對你哦所以你的參數是有道理的這部分沒有問題吧是跟委員報告因為現在這個執法現在在預告當中那委員的提醒我們會把他放進來做討論市長照理來說其實在預告的時候就應該把條件給公佈了大家才能夠正確理解這個參數是什麼意思"},{"start":374.252,"end":389.372,"text":"這其實每一個環節都需要一個專業團隊所以我其實他們我也發現他們的人力減弱的不足我會來加強是那第二個事情我要提醒齁其實我們這裡面也包括我們資源性減量的部分我想大家都知道其實我們在討論資源性減量的時候很重要的概念一定是接軌國際"},{"start":390.954,"end":414.382,"text":"其實所有的在跟你討論探權或者是減量額度的裡面一個很重要的概念就是外加性我想大家都知道這個外加性其實在國際的重要的標準包括VERA、VCS或者是GOLD STANDARD都有很清楚對外加性的定義的我要問部長現在我們在減量額度上面的外加性的要求我們願不願意接軌國際"},{"start":415.424,"end":441.581,"text":"我絕對是願意接軌復席但我覺得這很重要喔因為這是讓我們探權市場不會落入過於腐爛甚至劣幣驅逐良民我想這部長是專家很清楚所以今天部長在這邊承諾我們對於減量額度的外加性的定義是接軌重要的至少VERA或GOLD STANDARD這是我覺得這個立場要踩住好沒問題謝謝沒問題好部長我最後一個問題"},{"start":444.127,"end":457.037,"text":"我們剛剛看到其實你的高洩漏風險其實你有訂了不同期數的參數可是我們都知道氣候法裡面有另外一項工具是優惠費率請問剛剛的碳洩漏風險的打折跟優惠費率之間這兩個是什麼關係"},{"start":458.693,"end":486.154,"text":"這個其實這裏面就是例如說水泥業他可能有國外從進口進來會影響到本國所以其實委員提到的一個問題這個我覺得這兩個都變成是一種費率的折扣我不討論費率高低但這兩個都折扣會不會有哪一家企業他既享有高洩漏風險的打折甚至打到0.2但他同時又能夠拿到優惠費率的大幅減量大幅折扣會不會同時這兩個會出現"},{"start":489.138,"end":509.313,"text":"為什麼我們要用這兩個工具?這兩個工具代表的意義是什麼?他們之間的關係是什麼?很快速跟委員報告就是我們當初設計碳洩漏風險的這個前提就是希望他能夠提自主減量計畫達到指定目標所以當他如果提自主減量計畫有指定目標的時候我們的法制就是給優惠費率"},{"start":509.932,"end":526.2,"text":"那這樣子的一個做法其實比歐盟直接給免費配合我現在問你一個問題會不會甚至有些企業他拿到的費率是原本定的一折因為他已經打了0.2就是兩折了甚至會費率再下去剩下一折"},{"start":527.335,"end":533.158,"text":"會不會有這個狀況?我這邊還是要把我們的立場再重申一次很簡單今天要給優惠費率這其實過去在修法的時候這就是一個爭議的工具"},{"start":547.725,"end":573.478,"text":"今天要使用這個爭議工具只有唯一一個可以接受的目的是你用了它可以加速這個事業體的轉型而不是放鬆它在探定價裡面的承擔所以我們要能夠確認你要給它優惠費率或給它打折你怎麼確認它是提出了加速轉型的計畫而且這個轉型的計畫怎麼被集合怎麼被audit"},{"start":574.804,"end":585.374,"text":"這是關鍵我覺得這是這幾個打折的工具上面我覺得最重要的前提而不是變成讓他放鬆他上面的承擔反而如果放鬆他的承擔他可能是放緩轉型"},{"start":587.657,"end":609.235,"text":"在加速轉型跟放緩轉型之間就在於我們這些政策工具使用的條件是什麼我們使用的前提是什麼我覺得這部分要非常非常清楚的集合我不是說不能優惠我知道現在這個優惠已經入法了可是在使用的條件上面要明確定定不然我們很容易被外界認為我們是對某些高排放的企業在放水"},{"start":610.325,"end":639.363,"text":"反而透過低的費率讓他變成是放緩轉型的政策我覺得從環境部的立場這是大家不能接受的市長或部長這個立場應該沒有問題吧沒有問題這個我們會來延商然後相關的資料會再給我延商部長我知道你們接下來還有好幾場的這個審議委員會我認為這個立場是應該踩住踩死的我認為這是合理的事情這個立場就算對產業來說都是合理的事我們是要拿來加速轉型所以你要確認他到底他提出的加速轉型計畫是什麼"},{"start":640.305,"end":648.187,"text":"而不是說我拿到優惠費率我就鬆了一口氣。好,謝謝。沒有問題吧?沒有問題。好,部長謝謝。謝謝。好,謝謝洪申翰委員的發言。"}]}}}}