{"id":152813,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152813","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d1f5fb7ebac87ec0a42979da188194bea3b43bbf2d64d20175cc478b7cbe24b1c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:20:31 - 11:32:27","影片長度":"00:11:56","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":716,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-24"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T11:32:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T11:20:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1201,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時20分）謝謝！有請部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好！"],["吳委員思瑤：部長早安！觀察了您今天在這個質詢台上的表現，我覺得不錯，很好。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：有為有守，該說明就說明，我也希望未來在司法及法制委員會能夠保持這樣的互動。過去我都是在教育及文化領域，這個會期因為是幹部的關係，所以就到司法及法制委員會來學習。事實上，我認為司法及法制是最最需要專業的一個領域，只是比較遺憾的，這個會期的司法及法制充滿了高度政治性，所以我在這裡藉由部長的新上任也期勉所有法務部的同仁，我們還是言所當言、為所當為，即便昨天被二讀通過了藐視國會罪，只要大家是站在正確論述政策的立場，我覺得民意是站在我們這一邊，這個比什麼都更重要。","在你的手上還有另外一個考驗，我在這裡也一併提醒，在司法及法制委員會裡，我非常同意剛剛吳宗憲召委所提的，如何讓真正的偵查不公開能做到位，很多制度上的精進確實要檢視，但是你也要在立法院能夠捍衛住、頂得住壓力，因為我發現政治人物常常也會逼迫檢察人員被迫公開部分偵查中的進度，所以你們要扛得住壓力，好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝委員提醒。"],["吳委員思瑤：關於昨天通過的立法院職權行使法第四十七條，不知道部長是否已經看過條文，其中規定立法院可以成立調查委員會或調查專案小組來行使調查權，適用的對象包括政府機關、部隊、法人、團體或社會上有關係人員，要求在五天內提供相關文件、資料及檔案給立法院的調閱委員會或調查小組。如果這些文件原本業經司法機關或監察機關先為調取時，也要敘明理由、要提供複本，我認為這不就違反了大法官釋字第585號嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們認為這個也需要合乎憲法的規範。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，所以這樣的條文合乎憲法嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是……"],["吳委員思瑤：回答我的問題，我不會說你藐視國會啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是希望能合乎憲法的規範，這個的爭議性很大。"],["吳委員思瑤：雖然這個條文已經二讀通過，但是未來我們會進行大法官釋憲的一些憲法法庭的救濟，我們認為就扣著剛剛講的偵查不公開，事實上，在行使調查權限的時候，只要是在偵辦當中的案件就是要排除在外。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：這是憲法非常清楚告訴我們的限制。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以我想有為有守是重要的，如果你心中非常清楚知道違憲，那麼法律不能超越憲法……"],["鄭部長銘謙：憲法的規定。"],["吳委員思瑤：不該提供、不該被政治力干預的時候，我們都應當捍衛國家的體制，好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝。現在進入我今天準備的本題，也是一個倡議多時的議題，國家司法科學委員會是不是、有沒有可能成立來杜絕冤案？鑑定錯誤造成誤判，我們都希望不要再有下一個冤案。首先看我PPT的右手邊，2020年到2021年因為高雄醫學大學的誤判，無論是技術的問題或是設備的問題，將三級毒品誤檢成二級毒品共計38件，導致26人慘坐冤獄，而且後續還申請國賠，這個是這兩年發生的事。左邊更是我認為社會都很關切的，幾個被判死刑但最後都被檢視發現是原鑑定報告出現科學上的誤判，其中江國慶已經被執行死刑，即便後續已經幫他平反，但是國賠給了他一億多。蘇建和、徐自強及鄭性澤等三案都是被判死刑，但也都因為原來的鑑定報告發生嚴重的錯誤需要導正，所以平反了他們的罪刑，也必須透過國賠來平反他們因為誤判、因為鑑定專業性出狀況而待在獄中的日子。","面對這樣的狀況要如何解決呢？鑑定制度需要改革，民間團體力推多年，這些都是你長期一起合作的法界朋友，所以民間司改會一直說要建立各科學領域司法鑑定的標準作業流程（SOP），而且鑑定品質要在法庭內受檢驗，也就是它的證據力要能夠可信。鑑定專業人才的培育與確保是更長程的目標，以及我們國家應當設立具獨立性與公正性的鑑定組織或機構。以上是今天本席要就教於你的議題，我們是不是能夠設置國家司法科學委員會，現在到底努力得如何？","不只是民間倡議，司法國是會議、司改國是會議也有這樣的結論，要設立一個獨立機關，從政策面、教育面及認證面來強化整個科學證據的總體品質，還包括證照制度以及實驗室與專家之間的認證規範等等。就這個獨立機關而言，不知道新任鄭部長的看法如何？"],["鄭部長銘謙：報告委員，我們是樂見其成，在我們本部有法醫研究所，現在要將它改制成國家司法科學研究院，我們可以朝這個方向來推動邁進。"],["吳委員思瑤：現在確實是研議要把法務部下的法醫研究所做一個調整，成為法務部下的國家司法研究院下的司法科學委員會，這是現在研議的方向，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：但是民間所倡議的、司改國是會議所倡議的，應當是一個獨立機關，而且位階可能要高一些，你這樣的現行方案夠嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：呵呵呵……"],["吳委員思瑤：這個笑聲有點讓我很想要探詢一下部長你的立場。"],["侯所長寬仁：報告委員，目前國家司法科學研究院的組織法草案已經報行政院，在行政院經過羅政委的兩次審查之後，我們在上個月的4月23日也回復了審查的一些意見。"],["吳委員思瑤：然後呢？所以有再往前走？"],["侯所長寬仁：目前還在行政院審查中。"],["吳委員思瑤：就是部已經送到院，院的政委做過一些organize，但還是再回到部去做一些整合性的意見。在方向上，國家司法科學研究院的組織法代表我們要成立這樣一個司法研究院，因為我沒有看到法案，不知道它的位階獨立性是如何？"],["侯所長寬仁：是，我們再把草案送給委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：部長，你的看法到底如何呢？是under在你們司法部下，也就是剛剛你們規範設想的那個方向比較好，或真的是一個國家層級的司法科學委員會比較好？因為它是非常跨領域的喔！它必須含納人權、心理、法律、醫學、腦科學及刑事鑑識的科學專家，而且它要負責政策面、教育面及認證面的事項，所以它會更涉及跨部會，你覺得呢？就一個新任部長而言，面對羅政委的那個法案、那個草案，這個就是每位新任部長會碰到的問題。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：但是你在檢察體系這麼久了，今天你榮任了部長，對於這樣一個還在院裡cooking，可能會是最終定案的版本，你認為你接受行政院現在的方向嗎？也就是接受過去法務部研議的方向嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我現在是以目前這個來推動，而我個人認為這個目前能推到這樣是可以的。"],["吳委員思瑤：先求有再求好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這個已經全力在推動了，至於它的位階是否要獨立出來，可以再做討論。"],["吳委員思瑤：你應當有很多民間司改會的朋友，或是過去參與國是會議過程中的紀錄，你應該很理解為什麼大家認為需要一個獨立機關。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們再來……"],["吳委員思瑤：好，再來研議。最後是吳思瑤的主張、建議，第一個，要設立一個司法科學委員會為獨立機關，到底是你們法務部現在的模式或是朝過去大家論證後比較希望成立的獨立機關模式，我們可以來討論，你才剛上任第一天，沒有問題。第二個，很重要的是要研議一套適用於刑事、民事及行政訴訟的證據法專法，這也是當初大家討論的，你對這個部分的看法如何？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我請次長來說明。"],["吳委員思瑤：好。"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，司科院到底是要如目前草案所訂的成為一個三級機關，或是如司改會所提的要成為一個獨立的委員會，事實上，本部在草擬這個草案時已經召集相關部會研擬過很多次了。站在整個國家政策上的考量，目前法務部的草案立場是在法務部底下設一個獨立委員會去做國家級的科學研究，目前的政策方向是這樣。"],["吳委員思瑤：沒關係，我們後面還有很多時間可以討論。如果是under在法務部下，我也不是反對，只是如何針對它的權責、它的專業性、它的跨領域、它的法制作業、它的人才培育及它的認證制度，包括專家及實驗室之間的整套認證規範，倒不是為了組織而組織，我也不是為了獨立而讓它獨立，所以這些配套要做得好，組織也要發揮它的效應、它的必要專業性，提升我們的證據力，讓司法真的能夠完備可信。我想這些都是可以討論的，絕對不是為了獨立……不能為了成立一個獨立機關而導致其他配套都做不好，那樣它也不一定能夠run得好。我希望部長能把它當成後續本席與你對話的一個重要議題、政策，我們大家後續一起跨越黨派來討論，謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員、謝謝部長、謝謝次長。","先處理會議時間，上午的會議時間繼續進行至所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止。","接下來請莊委員瑞雄質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-24","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","林思銘","謝龍介","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","羅智強","林德福","洪孟楷","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","陳冠廷"],"page_start":77,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134901_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"152813","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152813","tool":"pyannote","id":"152813-pyannote"},"job_id":"Yzzo7uD0mgPWyeg9","queued_at":"2024-05-30 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0.75}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 714.208, \"end\": 714.228, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,020 --> 00:00:05,161\n請政部長\n\n2\n00:00:11,038 --> 00:00:34,551\n委員好部長早安觀察了您一早今天的這個執行台上的表現我覺得不錯很好謝謝委員有為有所該說明就說明我也希望未來在司法法制委員會能夠保持這樣的互動但是司法法制委員會在我認為我過去都在教育文化領域那這個會是因為是幹部的關係那就到司法法制委員會來學習\n\n3\n00:00:36,172 --> 00:00:58,207\n事上我認為司法法制是最最需要專業的一個專業領域只是比較遺憾在這個會期的司法法制變成是高度政治性所以我在這裡藉由新部長的上任也其免所有法務部的同仁我們還是言所當言為所當為即便昨天被二讀通過了藐視國會罪\n\n4\n00:00:59,648 --> 00:01:14,834\n但是大家只要是站在正確論述政策的立場我覺得民意是站在我們這一邊這比什麼都更重要那你手上還有另外的考驗也在這裡一併提醒就是說在司法法制委員會裡頭\n\n5\n00:01:16,295 --> 00:01:16,595\n謝謝委員提醒\n\n6\n00:01:44,462 --> 00:01:50,546\n以及還有針對昨天所通過的這個立法院職群行使法的第47條．\n\n7\n00:02:14,462 --> 00:02:14,842\n合乎憲法規範\n\n8\n00:02:36,994 --> 00:02:41,599\n這個條文當然我們未來雖然二讀通過但未來我們會進行其他大法官釋憲的憲法法庭的一些救濟\n\n9\n00:02:58,596 --> 00:03:20,375\n在我們認為偵查不公開就扣著剛剛講的偵查不公開事實上在行使調查權限的時候只要是在偵辦當中的案件就是排除在外這是憲法非常清楚告訴我們的限制所以我想有為有守是重要的如果您心中非常清楚知道違憲\n\n10\n00:03:22,312 --> 00:03:24,093\n這也是一個倡議多時的是不是國家司法科學委員會有沒有可能來成立杜絕冤案\n\n11\n00:03:46,884 --> 00:03:47,284\n建定錯誤造成誤判\n\n12\n00:04:17,245 --> 00:04:39,847\n這個是這兩年發生的事左邊呢更是我認為社會大家很關切的幾個被判死刑但最後都被檢視發現是原鑑定報告出現了科學上的誤判所以江國慶已經執行死刑了\n\n13\n00:04:40,367 --> 00:05:06,429\n即便後續平反了他但是國賠給他一億多蘇建和徐志強鄭幸澤等三案都是被判死刑但也都因為原來的鑑定報告發生了嚴重的錯誤需要導證所以平反了他們的罪行也必須透過國賠來平反他們在獄中的\n\n14\n00:05:07,403 --> 00:05:07,423\n：吳思瑤\n\n15\n00:05:32,409 --> 00:05:34,551\n這就是今天本席就教於您我們是不是能夠設置國家司法科學委員會現在到底努力的如何再看下一頁\n\n16\n00:05:57,603 --> 00:06:18,374\n不只民間倡議,司法的國事會議、司改國事會議也有這樣子的一個結論要設立一個獨立機關在政策面、教育面、認證面都來強化整個科學證據的總體的品質包括它還有證照制度、實驗室跟專家之間的認證規範就這個獨立機關不曉得新任部長、政部長您的看法如何?\n\n17\n00:06:23,816 --> 00:06:25,858\n現在確實是要研議把現在法務部下的法醫研究所來做一個調整\n\n18\n00:06:49,059 --> 00:06:57,828\n成為法務部下的國家司法研究院下的司法科學委員會是這樣跟民間所倡議的還有這個司改國是會議所倡議的應當是一個獨立的機關可能位階要高一些你這樣的現行方案夠嗎\n\n19\n00:07:11,843 --> 00:07:17,528\n國際司法科學院的組織法查判已經報行政院行政院羅政委也經過兩次的審查我們在上個月的4月23號也\n\n20\n00:07:33,834 --> 00:07:34,474\n國際司法科學研究院組織法\n\n21\n00:08:02,428 --> 00:08:21,458\n對,我們在把那個草案送給委員來查下一頁那部長您的看法到底如何呢是under在你們司法部下剛剛你們規範的設想的那個方向好還是能夠真的是一個國家層級的司法科學委員會因為他是非常跨領域的喔\n\n22\n00:08:21,858 --> 00:08:40,320\n他必須含納人權心理法律醫學腦科學形式鑑識的科學專家他要負責政策面教育面認證面的事項他會更涉及跨部會啦您覺得呢就一個新任部長當然羅政委的那個法案那個草案這就是每一個新任部長會碰到的問題\n\n23\n00:08:41,221 --> 00:08:58,889\n但是您在檢查體系這麼久您個人認為您今天容認了部長您對於這樣一個在院裡頭還在cooking可能會最終定案的版本你認為你接受現在行政院的方向嗎就是過去法務部的演繹的方向嗎\n\n24\n00:08:59,849 --> 00:09:21,922\n我現在是以這個目前的這個來做一個推動那我個人是認為說這個應該目前能夠推到這樣我認為是可以的先求有再求好我想這個有沒有權利再推動自己那個他位階是要在法務部之上是獨立出來的另外那個可以再去討論\n\n25\n00:09:23,763 --> 00:09:49,928\n您應當很多明天司改會的朋友或是過去參與國事會議的過程當中的這些記錄啊過程你應該很理解為什麼大家認為需要一個獨立機關這個我們再來再來好再來研議我到最後一頁我的主張欸不見了最後一頁吳思瑤的主張好今天PPT有點出狀況我的建議是這樣第一個這一頁沒有嗎\n\n26\n00:09:53,373 --> 00:10:21,125\n好要設立一個司法科學委員會為獨立機關到底是你們現在法務部的模式還是說朝過去大家在論證比較希望更有獨立機關的模式我們可以來討論你才剛上任第一天沒有問題第二個很重要的是要研議一套適用於刑事民事行政訴訟的證據法的專法這也是當初大家在討論的您這個部分的看法如何\n\n27\n00:10:25,126 --> 00:10:25,307\n委員會主席\n\n28\n00:10:28,715 --> 00:10:57,522\n各位報告這個司科院到底他要設向我目前草案所所定的一個三級機關還是如這個市改會所提的要一個獨立的一個委員會那事實上本部在他草擬這草案的時候已經召集相關部會研擬過很多次了當然這個站在整個國家的政策上的考量目前法務部立場是目前草案是定在這個法務部底下設一個獨立的委員會去做這個相關的國家級的這個科學的研究目前的\n\n29\n00:10:58,682 --> 00:11:17,398\n沒問題我們後面還有很多時間可以討論如果在Under在法務部下我也不是反對只是說如何針對他的選擇他的專業性他的跨領域他的法制作業跟他的人才培育他的認證制度包括專家跟實驗室間的要整套在不是為了組織而組織我也不是為了獨立而讓他獨立所以這些配套要做得好\n\n30\n00:11:24,224 --> 00:11:24,244\n謝謝委員：\n\n31\n00:11:54,127 --> 00:11:54,228\n謝謝吳委員謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5020\t5161\t請政部長\n11038\t34551\t委員好部長早安觀察了您一早今天的這個執行台上的表現我覺得不錯很好謝謝委員有為有所該說明就說明我也希望未來在司法法制委員會能夠保持這樣的互動但是司法法制委員會在我認為我過去都在教育文化領域那這個會是因為是幹部的關係那就到司法法制委員會來學習\n36172\t58207\t事上我認為司法法制是最最需要專業的一個專業領域只是比較遺憾在這個會期的司法法制變成是高度政治性所以我在這裡藉由新部長的上任也其免所有法務部的同仁我們還是言所當言為所當為即便昨天被二讀通過了藐視國會罪\n59648\t74834\t但是大家只要是站在正確論述政策的立場我覺得民意是站在我們這一邊這比什麼都更重要那你手上還有另外的考驗也在這裡一併提醒就是說在司法法制委員會裡頭\n76295\t76595\t謝謝委員提醒\n104462\t110546\t以及還有針對昨天所通過的這個立法院職群行使法的第47條．\n134462\t134842\t合乎憲法規範\n156994\t161599\t這個條文當然我們未來雖然二讀通過但未來我們會進行其他大法官釋憲的憲法法庭的一些救濟\n178596\t200375\t在我們認為偵查不公開就扣著剛剛講的偵查不公開事實上在行使調查權限的時候只要是在偵辦當中的案件就是排除在外這是憲法非常清楚告訴我們的限制所以我想有為有守是重要的如果您心中非常清楚知道違憲\n202312\t204093\t這也是一個倡議多時的是不是國家司法科學委員會有沒有可能來成立杜絕冤案\n226884\t227284\t建定錯誤造成誤判\n257245\t279847\t這個是這兩年發生的事左邊呢更是我認為社會大家很關切的幾個被判死刑但最後都被檢視發現是原鑑定報告出現了科學上的誤判所以江國慶已經執行死刑了\n280367\t306429\t即便後續平反了他但是國賠給他一億多蘇建和徐志強鄭幸澤等三案都是被判死刑但也都因為原來的鑑定報告發生了嚴重的錯誤需要導證所以平反了他們的罪行也必須透過國賠來平反他們在獄中的\n307403\t307423\t：吳思瑤\n332409\t334551\t這就是今天本席就教於您我們是不是能夠設置國家司法科學委員會現在到底努力的如何再看下一頁\n357603\t378374\t不只民間倡議,司法的國事會議、司改國事會議也有這樣子的一個結論要設立一個獨立機關在政策面、教育面、認證面都來強化整個科學證據的總體的品質包括它還有證照制度、實驗室跟專家之間的認證規範就這個獨立機關不曉得新任部長、政部長您的看法如何?\n383816\t385858\t現在確實是要研議把現在法務部下的法醫研究所來做一個調整\n409059\t417828\t成為法務部下的國家司法研究院下的司法科學委員會是這樣跟民間所倡議的還有這個司改國是會議所倡議的應當是一個獨立的機關可能位階要高一些你這樣的現行方案夠嗎\n431843\t437528\t國際司法科學院的組織法查判已經報行政院行政院羅政委也經過兩次的審查我們在上個月的4月23號也\n453834\t454474\t國際司法科學研究院組織法\n482428\t501458\t對,我們在把那個草案送給委員來查下一頁那部長您的看法到底如何呢是under在你們司法部下剛剛你們規範的設想的那個方向好還是能夠真的是一個國家層級的司法科學委員會因為他是非常跨領域的喔\n501858\t520320\t他必須含納人權心理法律醫學腦科學形式鑑識的科學專家他要負責政策面教育面認證面的事項他會更涉及跨部會啦您覺得呢就一個新任部長當然羅政委的那個法案那個草案這就是每一個新任部長會碰到的問題\n521221\t538889\t但是您在檢查體系這麼久您個人認為您今天容認了部長您對於這樣一個在院裡頭還在cooking可能會最終定案的版本你認為你接受現在行政院的方向嗎就是過去法務部的演繹的方向嗎\n539849\t561922\t我現在是以這個目前的這個來做一個推動那我個人是認為說這個應該目前能夠推到這樣我認為是可以的先求有再求好我想這個有沒有權利再推動自己那個他位階是要在法務部之上是獨立出來的另外那個可以再去討論\n563763\t589928\t您應當很多明天司改會的朋友或是過去參與國事會議的過程當中的這些記錄啊 過程 你應該很理解為什麼大家認為需要一個獨立機關這個我們再來 再來好 再來研議 我到最後一頁我的主張欸 不見了最後一頁吳思瑤的主張好 今天PPT有點出狀況我的建議是這樣第一個這一頁沒有嗎\n593373\t621125\t好 要設立一個司法科學委員會為獨立機關到底是你們現在法務部的模式還是說朝過去大家在論證比較希望更有獨立機關的模式我們可以來討論你才剛上任第一天沒有問題第二個很重要的是要研議一套適用於刑事民事行政訴訟的證據法的專法這也是當初大家在討論的您這個部分的看法如何\n625126\t625307\t委員會主席\n628715\t657522\t各位報告這個司科院到底他要設向我目前草案所所定的一個三級機關還是如這個市改會所提的要一個獨立的一個委員會那事實上本部在他草擬這草案的時候已經召集相關部會研擬過很多次了當然這個站在整個國家的政策上的考量目前法務部立場是目前草案是定在這個法務部底下設一個獨立的委員會去做這個相關的國家級的這個科學的研究目前的\n658682\t677398\t沒問題 我們後面還有很多時間可以討論如果在Under在法務部下 我也不是反對只是說如何針對他的選擇 他的專業性 他的跨領域他的法制作業 跟他的人才培育 他的認證制度包括專家跟實驗室間的 要整套在不是為了組織而組織 我也不是為了獨立而讓他獨立所以這些配套要做得好\n684224\t684244\t謝謝委員：\n714127\t714228\t謝謝吳委員 謝謝部長\n","txt":"請政部長\n委員好部長早安觀察了您一早今天的這個執行台上的表現我覺得不錯很好謝謝委員有為有所該說明就說明我也希望未來在司法法制委員會能夠保持這樣的互動但是司法法制委員會在我認為我過去都在教育文化領域那這個會是因為是幹部的關係那就到司法法制委員會來學習\n事上我認為司法法制是最最需要專業的一個專業領域只是比較遺憾在這個會期的司法法制變成是高度政治性所以我在這裡藉由新部長的上任也其免所有法務部的同仁我們還是言所當言為所當為即便昨天被二讀通過了藐視國會罪\n但是大家只要是站在正確論述政策的立場我覺得民意是站在我們這一邊這比什麼都更重要那你手上還有另外的考驗也在這裡一併提醒就是說在司法法制委員會裡頭\n謝謝委員提醒\n以及還有針對昨天所通過的這個立法院職群行使法的第47條．\n合乎憲法規範\n這個條文當然我們未來雖然二讀通過但未來我們會進行其他大法官釋憲的憲法法庭的一些救濟\n在我們認為偵查不公開就扣著剛剛講的偵查不公開事實上在行使調查權限的時候只要是在偵辦當中的案件就是排除在外這是憲法非常清楚告訴我們的限制所以我想有為有守是重要的如果您心中非常清楚知道違憲\n這也是一個倡議多時的是不是國家司法科學委員會有沒有可能來成立杜絕冤案\n建定錯誤造成誤判\n這個是這兩年發生的事左邊呢更是我認為社會大家很關切的幾個被判死刑但最後都被檢視發現是原鑑定報告出現了科學上的誤判所以江國慶已經執行死刑了\n即便後續平反了他但是國賠給他一億多蘇建和徐志強鄭幸澤等三案都是被判死刑但也都因為原來的鑑定報告發生了嚴重的錯誤需要導證所以平反了他們的罪行也必須透過國賠來平反他們在獄中的\n：吳思瑤\n這就是今天本席就教於您我們是不是能夠設置國家司法科學委員會現在到底努力的如何再看下一頁\n不只民間倡議,司法的國事會議、司改國事會議也有這樣子的一個結論要設立一個獨立機關在政策面、教育面、認證面都來強化整個科學證據的總體的品質包括它還有證照制度、實驗室跟專家之間的認證規範就這個獨立機關不曉得新任部長、政部長您的看法如何?\n現在確實是要研議把現在法務部下的法醫研究所來做一個調整\n成為法務部下的國家司法研究院下的司法科學委員會是這樣跟民間所倡議的還有這個司改國是會議所倡議的應當是一個獨立的機關可能位階要高一些你這樣的現行方案夠嗎\n國際司法科學院的組織法查判已經報行政院行政院羅政委也經過兩次的審查我們在上個月的4月23號也\n國際司法科學研究院組織法\n對,我們在把那個草案送給委員來查下一頁那部長您的看法到底如何呢是under在你們司法部下剛剛你們規範的設想的那個方向好還是能夠真的是一個國家層級的司法科學委員會因為他是非常跨領域的喔\n他必須含納人權心理法律醫學腦科學形式鑑識的科學專家他要負責政策面教育面認證面的事項他會更涉及跨部會啦您覺得呢就一個新任部長當然羅政委的那個法案那個草案這就是每一個新任部長會碰到的問題\n但是您在檢查體系這麼久您個人認為您今天容認了部長您對於這樣一個在院裡頭還在cooking可能會最終定案的版本你認為你接受現在行政院的方向嗎就是過去法務部的演繹的方向嗎\n我現在是以這個目前的這個來做一個推動那我個人是認為說這個應該目前能夠推到這樣我認為是可以的先求有再求好我想這個有沒有權利再推動自己那個他位階是要在法務部之上是獨立出來的另外那個可以再去討論\n您應當很多明天司改會的朋友或是過去參與國事會議的過程當中的這些記錄啊 過程 你應該很理解為什麼大家認為需要一個獨立機關這個我們再來 再來好 再來研議 我到最後一頁我的主張欸 不見了最後一頁吳思瑤的主張好 今天PPT有點出狀況我的建議是這樣第一個這一頁沒有嗎\n好 要設立一個司法科學委員會為獨立機關到底是你們現在法務部的模式還是說朝過去大家在論證比較希望更有獨立機關的模式我們可以來討論你才剛上任第一天沒有問題第二個很重要的是要研議一套適用於刑事民事行政訴訟的證據法的專法這也是當初大家在討論的您這個部分的看法如何\n委員會主席\n各位報告這個司科院到底他要設向我目前草案所所定的一個三級機關還是如這個市改會所提的要一個獨立的一個委員會那事實上本部在他草擬這草案的時候已經召集相關部會研擬過很多次了當然這個站在整個國家的政策上的考量目前法務部立場是目前草案是定在這個法務部底下設一個獨立的委員會去做這個相關的國家級的這個科學的研究目前的\n沒問題 我們後面還有很多時間可以討論如果在Under在法務部下 我也不是反對只是說如何針對他的選擇 他的專業性 他的跨領域他的法制作業 跟他的人才培育 他的認證制度包括專家跟實驗室間的 要整套在不是為了組織而組織 我也不是為了獨立而讓他獨立所以這些配套要做得好\n謝謝委員：\n謝謝吳委員 謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.020 --> 00:05.161\n請政部長\n\n00:11.038 --> 00:34.551\n委員好部長早安觀察了您一早今天的這個執行台上的表現我覺得不錯很好謝謝委員有為有所該說明就說明我也希望未來在司法法制委員會能夠保持這樣的互動但是司法法制委員會在我認為我過去都在教育文化領域那這個會是因為是幹部的關係那就到司法法制委員會來學習\n\n00:36.172 --> 00:58.207\n事上我認為司法法制是最最需要專業的一個專業領域只是比較遺憾在這個會期的司法法制變成是高度政治性所以我在這裡藉由新部長的上任也其免所有法務部的同仁我們還是言所當言為所當為即便昨天被二讀通過了藐視國會罪\n\n00:59.648 --> 01:14.834\n但是大家只要是站在正確論述政策的立場我覺得民意是站在我們這一邊這比什麼都更重要那你手上還有另外的考驗也在這裡一併提醒就是說在司法法制委員會裡頭\n\n01:16.295 --> 01:16.595\n謝謝委員提醒\n\n01:44.462 --> 01:50.546\n以及還有針對昨天所通過的這個立法院職群行使法的第47條．\n\n02:14.462 --> 02:14.842\n合乎憲法規範\n\n02:36.994 --> 02:41.599\n這個條文當然我們未來雖然二讀通過但未來我們會進行其他大法官釋憲的憲法法庭的一些救濟\n\n02:58.596 --> 03:20.375\n在我們認為偵查不公開就扣著剛剛講的偵查不公開事實上在行使調查權限的時候只要是在偵辦當中的案件就是排除在外這是憲法非常清楚告訴我們的限制所以我想有為有守是重要的如果您心中非常清楚知道違憲\n\n03:22.312 --> 03:24.093\n這也是一個倡議多時的是不是國家司法科學委員會有沒有可能來成立杜絕冤案\n\n03:46.884 --> 03:47.284\n建定錯誤造成誤判\n\n04:17.245 --> 04:39.847\n這個是這兩年發生的事左邊呢更是我認為社會大家很關切的幾個被判死刑但最後都被檢視發現是原鑑定報告出現了科學上的誤判所以江國慶已經執行死刑了\n\n04:40.367 --> 05:06.429\n即便後續平反了他但是國賠給他一億多蘇建和徐志強鄭幸澤等三案都是被判死刑但也都因為原來的鑑定報告發生了嚴重的錯誤需要導證所以平反了他們的罪行也必須透過國賠來平反他們在獄中的\n\n05:07.403 --> 05:07.423\n：吳思瑤\n\n05:32.409 --> 05:34.551\n這就是今天本席就教於您我們是不是能夠設置國家司法科學委員會現在到底努力的如何再看下一頁\n\n05:57.603 --> 06:18.374\n不只民間倡議,司法的國事會議、司改國事會議也有這樣子的一個結論要設立一個獨立機關在政策面、教育面、認證面都來強化整個科學證據的總體的品質包括它還有證照制度、實驗室跟專家之間的認證規範就這個獨立機關不曉得新任部長、政部長您的看法如何?\n\n06:23.816 --> 06:25.858\n現在確實是要研議把現在法務部下的法醫研究所來做一個調整\n\n06:49.059 --> 06:57.828\n成為法務部下的國家司法研究院下的司法科學委員會是這樣跟民間所倡議的還有這個司改國是會議所倡議的應當是一個獨立的機關可能位階要高一些你這樣的現行方案夠嗎\n\n07:11.843 --> 07:17.528\n國際司法科學院的組織法查判已經報行政院行政院羅政委也經過兩次的審查我們在上個月的4月23號也\n\n07:33.834 --> 07:34.474\n國際司法科學研究院組織法\n\n08:02.428 --> 08:21.458\n對,我們在把那個草案送給委員來查下一頁那部長您的看法到底如何呢是under在你們司法部下剛剛你們規範的設想的那個方向好還是能夠真的是一個國家層級的司法科學委員會因為他是非常跨領域的喔\n\n08:21.858 --> 08:40.320\n他必須含納人權心理法律醫學腦科學形式鑑識的科學專家他要負責政策面教育面認證面的事項他會更涉及跨部會啦您覺得呢就一個新任部長當然羅政委的那個法案那個草案這就是每一個新任部長會碰到的問題\n\n08:41.221 --> 08:58.889\n但是您在檢查體系這麼久您個人認為您今天容認了部長您對於這樣一個在院裡頭還在cooking可能會最終定案的版本你認為你接受現在行政院的方向嗎就是過去法務部的演繹的方向嗎\n\n08:59.849 --> 09:21.922\n我現在是以這個目前的這個來做一個推動那我個人是認為說這個應該目前能夠推到這樣我認為是可以的先求有再求好我想這個有沒有權利再推動自己那個他位階是要在法務部之上是獨立出來的另外那個可以再去討論\n\n09:23.763 --> 09:49.928\n您應當很多明天司改會的朋友或是過去參與國事會議的過程當中的這些記錄啊過程你應該很理解為什麼大家認為需要一個獨立機關這個我們再來再來好再來研議我到最後一頁我的主張欸不見了最後一頁吳思瑤的主張好今天PPT有點出狀況我的建議是這樣第一個這一頁沒有嗎\n\n09:53.373 --> 10:21.125\n好要設立一個司法科學委員會為獨立機關到底是你們現在法務部的模式還是說朝過去大家在論證比較希望更有獨立機關的模式我們可以來討論你才剛上任第一天沒有問題第二個很重要的是要研議一套適用於刑事民事行政訴訟的證據法的專法這也是當初大家在討論的您這個部分的看法如何\n\n10:25.126 --> 10:25.307\n委員會主席\n\n10:28.715 --> 10:57.522\n各位報告這個司科院到底他要設向我目前草案所所定的一個三級機關還是如這個市改會所提的要一個獨立的一個委員會那事實上本部在他草擬這草案的時候已經召集相關部會研擬過很多次了當然這個站在整個國家的政策上的考量目前法務部立場是目前草案是定在這個法務部底下設一個獨立的委員會去做這個相關的國家級的這個科學的研究目前的\n\n10:58.682 --> 11:17.398\n沒問題我們後面還有很多時間可以討論如果在Under在法務部下我也不是反對只是說如何針對他的選擇他的專業性他的跨領域他的法制作業跟他的人才培育他的認證制度包括專家跟實驗室間的要整套在不是為了組織而組織我也不是為了獨立而讓他獨立所以這些配套要做得好\n\n11:24.224 --> 11:24.244\n謝謝委員：\n\n11:54.127 --> 11:54.228\n謝謝吳委員謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.02,"end":5.161,"text":"請政部長"},{"start":11.038,"end":34.551,"text":"委員好部長早安觀察了您一早今天的這個執行台上的表現我覺得不錯很好謝謝委員有為有所該說明就說明我也希望未來在司法法制委員會能夠保持這樣的互動但是司法法制委員會在我認為我過去都在教育文化領域那這個會是因為是幹部的關係那就到司法法制委員會來學習"},{"start":36.172,"end":58.207,"text":"事上我認為司法法制是最最需要專業的一個專業領域只是比較遺憾在這個會期的司法法制變成是高度政治性所以我在這裡藉由新部長的上任也其免所有法務部的同仁我們還是言所當言為所當為即便昨天被二讀通過了藐視國會罪"},{"start":59.648,"end":74.834,"text":"但是大家只要是站在正確論述政策的立場我覺得民意是站在我們這一邊這比什麼都更重要那你手上還有另外的考驗也在這裡一併提醒就是說在司法法制委員會裡頭"},{"start":76.295,"end":76.595,"text":"謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":104.462,"end":110.546,"text":"以及還有針對昨天所通過的這個立法院職群行使法的第47條．"},{"start":134.462,"end":134.842,"text":"合乎憲法規範"},{"start":156.994,"end":161.599,"text":"這個條文當然我們未來雖然二讀通過但未來我們會進行其他大法官釋憲的憲法法庭的一些救濟"},{"start":178.596,"end":200.375,"text":"在我們認為偵查不公開就扣著剛剛講的偵查不公開事實上在行使調查權限的時候只要是在偵辦當中的案件就是排除在外這是憲法非常清楚告訴我們的限制所以我想有為有守是重要的如果您心中非常清楚知道違憲"},{"start":202.312,"end":204.093,"text":"這也是一個倡議多時的是不是國家司法科學委員會有沒有可能來成立杜絕冤案"},{"start":226.884,"end":227.284,"text":"建定錯誤造成誤判"},{"start":257.245,"end":279.847,"text":"這個是這兩年發生的事左邊呢更是我認為社會大家很關切的幾個被判死刑但最後都被檢視發現是原鑑定報告出現了科學上的誤判所以江國慶已經執行死刑了"},{"start":280.367,"end":306.429,"text":"即便後續平反了他但是國賠給他一億多蘇建和徐志強鄭幸澤等三案都是被判死刑但也都因為原來的鑑定報告發生了嚴重的錯誤需要導證所以平反了他們的罪行也必須透過國賠來平反他們在獄中的"},{"start":307.403,"end":307.423,"text":"：吳思瑤"},{"start":332.409,"end":334.551,"text":"這就是今天本席就教於您我們是不是能夠設置國家司法科學委員會現在到底努力的如何再看下一頁"},{"start":357.603,"end":378.374,"text":"不只民間倡議,司法的國事會議、司改國事會議也有這樣子的一個結論要設立一個獨立機關在政策面、教育面、認證面都來強化整個科學證據的總體的品質包括它還有證照制度、實驗室跟專家之間的認證規範就這個獨立機關不曉得新任部長、政部長您的看法如何?"},{"start":383.816,"end":385.858,"text":"現在確實是要研議把現在法務部下的法醫研究所來做一個調整"},{"start":409.059,"end":417.828,"text":"成為法務部下的國家司法研究院下的司法科學委員會是這樣跟民間所倡議的還有這個司改國是會議所倡議的應當是一個獨立的機關可能位階要高一些你這樣的現行方案夠嗎"},{"start":431.843,"end":437.528,"text":"國際司法科學院的組織法查判已經報行政院行政院羅政委也經過兩次的審查我們在上個月的4月23號也"},{"start":453.834,"end":454.474,"text":"國際司法科學研究院組織法"},{"start":482.428,"end":501.458,"text":"對,我們在把那個草案送給委員來查下一頁那部長您的看法到底如何呢是under在你們司法部下剛剛你們規範的設想的那個方向好還是能夠真的是一個國家層級的司法科學委員會因為他是非常跨領域的喔"},{"start":501.858,"end":520.32,"text":"他必須含納人權心理法律醫學腦科學形式鑑識的科學專家他要負責政策面教育面認證面的事項他會更涉及跨部會啦您覺得呢就一個新任部長當然羅政委的那個法案那個草案這就是每一個新任部長會碰到的問題"},{"start":521.221,"end":538.889,"text":"但是您在檢查體系這麼久您個人認為您今天容認了部長您對於這樣一個在院裡頭還在cooking可能會最終定案的版本你認為你接受現在行政院的方向嗎就是過去法務部的演繹的方向嗎"},{"start":539.849,"end":561.922,"text":"我現在是以這個目前的這個來做一個推動那我個人是認為說這個應該目前能夠推到這樣我認為是可以的先求有再求好我想這個有沒有權利再推動自己那個他位階是要在法務部之上是獨立出來的另外那個可以再去討論"},{"start":563.763,"end":589.928,"text":"您應當很多明天司改會的朋友或是過去參與國事會議的過程當中的這些記錄啊 過程 你應該很理解為什麼大家認為需要一個獨立機關這個我們再來 再來好 再來研議 我到最後一頁我的主張欸 不見了最後一頁吳思瑤的主張好 今天PPT有點出狀況我的建議是這樣第一個這一頁沒有嗎"},{"start":593.373,"end":621.125,"text":"好 要設立一個司法科學委員會為獨立機關到底是你們現在法務部的模式還是說朝過去大家在論證比較希望更有獨立機關的模式我們可以來討論你才剛上任第一天沒有問題第二個很重要的是要研議一套適用於刑事民事行政訴訟的證據法的專法這也是當初大家在討論的您這個部分的看法如何"},{"start":625.126,"end":625.307,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":628.715,"end":657.522,"text":"各位報告這個司科院到底他要設向我目前草案所所定的一個三級機關還是如這個市改會所提的要一個獨立的一個委員會那事實上本部在他草擬這草案的時候已經召集相關部會研擬過很多次了當然這個站在整個國家的政策上的考量目前法務部立場是目前草案是定在這個法務部底下設一個獨立的委員會去做這個相關的國家級的這個科學的研究目前的"},{"start":658.682,"end":677.398,"text":"沒問題 我們後面還有很多時間可以討論如果在Under在法務部下 我也不是反對只是說如何針對他的選擇 他的專業性 他的跨領域他的法制作業 跟他的人才培育 他的認證制度包括專家跟實驗室間的 要整套在不是為了組織而組織 我也不是為了獨立而讓他獨立所以這些配套要做得好"},{"start":684.224,"end":684.244,"text":"謝謝委員："},{"start":714.127,"end":714.228,"text":"謝謝吳委員 謝謝部長"}]}}}}