{"id":152832,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152832","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9dc4fd79667344e9b13a3b62c5cf6e8dc13b43bbf2d64d20174081f7d117a098d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"12:11:07 - 12:18:41","影片長度":"00:07:34","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員羅美玲等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員王定宇等16人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員邱議瑩等19人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如經復議，則不予審查）。）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":454,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[19,26,22],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T12:18:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T12:11:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":966,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（12時11分）謝謝邱召委，有請國發會副主委。"],["主席：請國發會。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員好。"],["范委員雲：副主委好。想跟您請教，關於延攬國外專業人才，我知道要考慮產業需求，我只是想除了產業需求之外，社會的需求不知道是不是也能夠一起考慮？請問您對外籍專業人才的想像，可以簡單跟我說是怎麼出來的嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好。這個法裡面有包括外國特定專業人才，還有一般專業人才，外國特定專業人才就如委員所說的，我們會考慮大概有十項類別，除了經濟、科技，也包括演藝、新聞、教育等各個領域，臺灣所需要的人才都有主管部會設定一定的標準，積極延攬。我們會提供他們一些稅務、或者是工作、或是簽證上的便利。"],["范委員雲：了解。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：關於一般專業人才，基本上就是就服法的相關規定，只要雇主符合僱用的條件，這些受僱者也符合一定的條件，都可以延攬進入臺灣工作。"],["范委員雲：我想如果我們跟日本、新加坡、韓國比的話，他們有針對中階技術人力發放工作簽證，臺灣跟這三個國家相比，因為我們也是人口老化國家，他們的中階技術人力如果在臺灣，有辦法取得相關簽證嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我覺得分兩個部分，一般專業人才只要符合就服法的規定，有雇主願意僱用，就業條件是月薪47,971元，以及大學畢業加兩年工作經驗，就可以進入臺灣。我想中階技術人力有一部分是屬於這塊的人力。"],["范委員雲：了解。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：另外一方面，我們有勞工久留方案，就是移工留才久用方案，就是在臺灣已經有6年以上工作經驗、符合一定條件的移工，也屬於中階技術人力，就可以留下來。","另外一種是僑外生。僑外生如果拿到學士學位，依照僑外生評點制度，even不需要工作經驗，就可以留在臺灣。所以有不同的管道，我們會讓這些專業人力還有中階技術人力都可以留在臺灣。"],["范委員雲：好。我現在想問，勞動部的新聞有預告外國人以後可以在臺灣當社工師，「衛福部認同：具專業性」。請問副主委，如果是社工師會符合目前已有的相關規定嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我覺得應該是外國專業人才就符合。我剛剛有講過，他只要有雇主，而且他有薪資47,971元、大學畢業兩年工作經驗，都可以，不會有產業之分，類別應該也是在這裡面。"],["范委員雲：現在我的問題是，因為我們所了解的，申請來臺需求有一項是月薪達47,971元，這樣沒錯吧？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，這是一般專業人才。"],["范委員雲：所以你的意思是社工師不需要走一般專業人才這條路嗎？因為我們看社工師的平均薪資，其實並沒有到40,000元，113年起社工師調整的起薪只有37,000元吔，這部分的矛盾怎麼解決？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我剛才說有三個管道，基本上如果他走的是一般專業人才，的確要符合月薪47,971元。"],["范委員雲：是。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：可是如果他是僑外生，用評點制度就……"],["范委員雲：但如果不是僑外生呢？僑外生點數加起來會夠，這是我們知道的，這是一個不錯的累積辦法。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，是。"],["范委員雲：可是今天他如果走的不是僑外生這條路呢？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：就還是要符合就服法的相關規定。"],["范委員雲：那這樣我們開放的意義跟實際之間的矛盾，我想問的是，為什麼社工師不被當成是個專業？我們考量的到底是一個國家的產業，譬如某些工程需要，還是也看到社會的需求？社工不被認為是個產業，很多都是政府部門或者NGO外包，我們看不到其實社會也有這個需求。因為社工師的薪資，以我知道在其他國家是比臺灣更高，他可能想要來臺灣，也許有別的原因，數量也不是很大。可是這裡你就會發現，他有卡關，跟勞動部之間的政策是矛盾的，所以想請問副主委這個問題。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：基本上，因為一般專業人才的法規主管部會還是勞動部，在沒有修法之前，的確一定要符合月薪47,971元的相關規定。我是不是可以請勞動部主秘來說明，當初設定這個標準的立法意旨跟原則是怎麼樣，在社工師的適用是怎麼樣？"],["范委員雲：因為我時間快到了，是不是可以簡短說明，好嗎？所以這件事是不需要處理的嗎？"],["陳主任秘書世昌：跟委員報告，目前專業人才的薪資設定47,971元，是為了確保他提供的專業服務符合市場認定是屬於專業。"],["范委員雲：所以一定要很高階的社工才能夠來嗎？"],["陳主任秘書世昌：這是一個，我剛剛講這是其中一條路。剛剛副主委也有提到，其實目前用評點制，社工師一樣也可以納入適用，他就沒有……"],["范委員雲：不是，那他等於必須要在臺灣唸大學，才能用僑生的身分累積更多的點數。"],["陳主任秘書世昌：是。"],["范委員雲：所以基本上你們社工師只對在臺灣唸完大學的僑生開放嗎？"],["陳主任秘書世昌：只要取得社工師證照，就可以符合，不見得要在臺灣唸書。"],["范委員雲：可是取得社工師證照，他的薪資並沒有達到這個標準啊！"],["陳主任秘書世昌：薪資的部分，我們並沒有……"],["范委員雲：我想這兩個部會之間顯然溝通是有一點問題。陳主秘您請回，謝謝。","我想跟副主委討論的是，我覺得國發會的攬才計畫，精神上我非常支持，我只是希望除了產業需求之外，也能夠看到社會跟弱勢人民的需求，當然如何保障本國人民的就業利益跟公共利益之間，要作一個權衡，好嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["范委員雲：可以在一個月內給我一個書面報告，好嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好、好，沒問題。"],["范委員雲：謝謝副主委，謝謝召委。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員，接下來請王正旭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1","speakers":["邱議瑩","王定宇","羅美玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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{\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 409.853, \"end\": 409.993, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 409.993, \"end\": 410.353, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"師\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 410.353, \"end\": 410.494, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"證\"}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 410.494, \"end\": 410.894, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 410.894, \"end\": 411.074, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 411.074, \"end\": 411.194, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 411.194, \"end\": 411.314, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"符\", \"start\": 411.314, \"end\": 411.494, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 411.494, \"end\": 411.774, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 411.774, \"end\": 411.854, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 411.854, \"end\": 412.035, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"取\", \"start\": 412.035, \"end\": 412.135, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 412.135, 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\"啊\", \"start\": 415.277, \"end\": 415.297, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"范\", \"start\": 416.816, \"end\": 417.056, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"雲\"}, {\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 417.056, \"end\": 417.176, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"揮\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 417.176, \"end\": 417.196, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,284 --> 00:00:09,485\n國發會副主委\n\n2\n00:00:50,157 --> 00:00:50,177\n范雲\n\n3\n00:01:08,115 --> 00:01:08,315\n范雲議員范雲\n\n4\n00:01:37,290 --> 00:01:37,550\n范雲章章章章\n\n5\n00:02:05,346 --> 00:02:05,366\n范雲\n\n6\n00:02:31,222 --> 00:02:33,064\n則不予審查：范雲\n\n7\n00:02:49,761 --> 00:02:49,781\n范雲\n\n8\n00:03:08,976 --> 00:03:34,693\n那我現在是想問您啊,不過這是勞動部的新聞喔,因為勞動部有預告說外國人以後可以在台灣當社工師喔,那衛福部有認同具專業性。那我想請問副主委就是說,如果是一個社工師的話,那目前會符合你們這個相關的已有的規定嗎?我覺得對,應該是外國專業人才你們就符合。因為我剛剛有講過他只要有僱主,而且他有薪資47971,對,大學畢業兩年工作都可以。\n\n9\n00:03:38,556 --> 00:03:38,576\n范雲\n\n10\n00:03:54,338 --> 00:04:18,746\n那所以你的意思是說社工師不需要走這個一般專業人才的這條路嗎?因為社工師我們看他的平均薪資喔欸等一下社工師的平均薪資喔那其實是是並沒有到4萬嘛他是113年前社工調整的起薪只有37000元欸那這部分的這個矛盾是怎麼解決?\n\n11\n00:04:21,434 --> 00:04:42,728\n對,基本上如果他走的,我剛才說有三個管道嘛,他基本走的是一般專業人才,的確要符合月薪4797,可是如果他是橋外申的話,他如果不是橋外申,橋外申點數加起來會夠,這是我們知道的,那是一個不錯的領域的辦法。那可是今天他如果走的不是,就是橋外申這條路呢?\n\n12\n00:04:43,288 --> 00:05:11,473\n是就還是要符合就符法的那這樣子我們這個開放的意義跟這之間的矛盾我想問的是說專業人才為什麼社工師不被當成是個專業那我們考量的到底是一個國家的產業譬如說某些工程師需要還是也看到社會的需求那社工因為他不被認為是個產業很多都是政府部門或是NGO外包的所以我們就看不到社會其實也有這個需求\n\n13\n00:05:12,830 --> 00:05:12,850\n范雲\n\n14\n00:05:35,490 --> 00:06:01,991\n因為一般專業人才的主管部會還是勞動部啦法規的主管部會啦齁那在沒有修法之前的確一定要符合月薪47971的相關規定那我是不是可以請勞動部組密來說明一下當初設定這個標準的立法的意思跟原則是怎麼樣那在設公司的適用上面是怎麼樣那因為我時間快到是可以簡短說明好嗎是所以這之間是不需要處理的嗎嗯\n\n15\n00:06:06,501 --> 00:06:09,071\n委員報告目前這個我們的這個\n\n16\n00:06:10,796 --> 00:06:10,816\n范雲\n\n17\n00:06:39,306 --> 00:06:55,297\n所以你們基本上社工師指對就是在台灣念完大學的喬生開放嗎?他只要取得那個我們的社工師的證照就可以符合。可是取得社工師證照他的薪資並沒有達到這個部分啊?\n\n18\n00:06:56,816 --> 00:06:57,196\n范雲指揮委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9284\t9485\t國發會副主委\n20077\t50077\t響鐘\n50157\t50177\t范雲\n68115\t68315\t范雲議員范雲\n97290\t97550\t范雲章章章章\n125346\t125366\t范雲\n151222\t153064\t則不予審查：范雲\n169761\t169781\t范雲\n188976\t214693\t那我現在是想問您啊,不過這是勞動部的新聞喔,因為勞動部有預告說外國人以後可以在台灣當社工師喔,那衛福部有認同具專業性。那我想請問副主委就是說,如果是一個社工師的話,那目前會符合你們這個相關的已有的規定嗎?我覺得對,應該是外國專業人才你們就符合。因為我剛剛有講過他只要有僱主,而且他有薪資47971,對,大學畢業兩年工作都可以。\n218556\t218576\t范雲\n234338\t258746\t那所以你的意思是說社工師不需要走這個一般專業人才的這條路嗎?因為社工師我們看他的平均薪資喔欸等一下社工師的平均薪資喔那其實是是並沒有到4萬嘛他是113年前社工調整的起薪只有37000元欸那這部分的這個矛盾是怎麼解決?\n261434\t282728\t對,基本上如果他走的,我剛才說有三個管道嘛,他基本走的是一般專業人才,的確要符合月薪4797,可是如果他是橋外申的話,他如果不是橋外申,橋外申點數加起來會夠,這是我們知道的,那是一個不錯的領域的辦法。那可是今天他如果走的不是,就是橋外申這條路呢?\n283288\t311473\t是就還是要符合就符法的那這樣子我們這個開放的意義跟這之間的矛盾我想問的是說專業人才為什麼社工師不被當成是個專業那我們考量的到底是一個國家的產業譬如說某些工程師需要還是也看到社會的需求那社工因為他不被認為是個產業很多都是政府部門或是NGO外包的所以我們就看不到社會其實也有這個需求\n312830\t312850\t范雲\n335490\t361991\t因為一般專業人才的主管部會還是勞動部啦法規的主管部會啦齁那在沒有修法之前的確一定要符合月薪47971的相關規定那我是不是可以請勞動部組密來說明一下當初設定這個標準的立法的意思跟原則是怎麼樣那在設公司的適用上面是怎麼樣那因為我時間快到是可以簡短說明好嗎是所以這之間是不需要處理的嗎嗯\n366501\t369071\t委員報告目前這個我們的這個\n370796\t370816\t范雲\n399306\t415297\t所以你們基本上社工師指對就是在台灣念完大學的喬生開放嗎?他只要取得那個我們的社工師的證照就可以符合。可是取得社工師證照他的薪資並沒有達到這個部分啊?\n416816\t417196\t范雲指揮委員\n446135\t453166\t響鐘\n","txt":"國發會副主委\n響鐘\n范雲\n范雲議員范雲\n范雲章章章章\n范雲\n則不予審查：范雲\n范雲\n那我現在是想問您啊,不過這是勞動部的新聞喔,因為勞動部有預告說外國人以後可以在台灣當社工師喔,那衛福部有認同具專業性。那我想請問副主委就是說,如果是一個社工師的話,那目前會符合你們這個相關的已有的規定嗎?我覺得對,應該是外國專業人才你們就符合。因為我剛剛有講過他只要有僱主,而且他有薪資47971,對,大學畢業兩年工作都可以。\n范雲\n那所以你的意思是說社工師不需要走這個一般專業人才的這條路嗎?因為社工師我們看他的平均薪資喔欸等一下社工師的平均薪資喔那其實是是並沒有到4萬嘛他是113年前社工調整的起薪只有37000元欸那這部分的這個矛盾是怎麼解決?\n對,基本上如果他走的,我剛才說有三個管道嘛,他基本走的是一般專業人才,的確要符合月薪4797,可是如果他是橋外申的話,他如果不是橋外申,橋外申點數加起來會夠,這是我們知道的,那是一個不錯的領域的辦法。那可是今天他如果走的不是,就是橋外申這條路呢?\n是就還是要符合就符法的那這樣子我們這個開放的意義跟這之間的矛盾我想問的是說專業人才為什麼社工師不被當成是個專業那我們考量的到底是一個國家的產業譬如說某些工程師需要還是也看到社會的需求那社工因為他不被認為是個產業很多都是政府部門或是NGO外包的所以我們就看不到社會其實也有這個需求\n范雲\n因為一般專業人才的主管部會還是勞動部啦法規的主管部會啦齁那在沒有修法之前的確一定要符合月薪47971的相關規定那我是不是可以請勞動部組密來說明一下當初設定這個標準的立法的意思跟原則是怎麼樣那在設公司的適用上面是怎麼樣那因為我時間快到是可以簡短說明好嗎是所以這之間是不需要處理的嗎嗯\n委員報告目前這個我們的這個\n范雲\n所以你們基本上社工師指對就是在台灣念完大學的喬生開放嗎?他只要取得那個我們的社工師的證照就可以符合。可是取得社工師證照他的薪資並沒有達到這個部分啊?\n范雲指揮委員\n響鐘\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.284 --> 00:09.485\n國發會副主委\n\n00:50.157 --> 00:50.177\n范雲\n\n01:08.115 --> 01:08.315\n范雲議員范雲\n\n01:37.290 --> 01:37.550\n范雲章章章章\n\n02:05.346 --> 02:05.366\n范雲\n\n02:31.222 --> 02:33.064\n則不予審查：范雲\n\n02:49.761 --> 02:49.781\n范雲\n\n03:08.976 --> 03:34.693\n那我現在是想問您啊,不過這是勞動部的新聞喔,因為勞動部有預告說外國人以後可以在台灣當社工師喔,那衛福部有認同具專業性。那我想請問副主委就是說,如果是一個社工師的話,那目前會符合你們這個相關的已有的規定嗎?我覺得對,應該是外國專業人才你們就符合。因為我剛剛有講過他只要有僱主,而且他有薪資47971,對,大學畢業兩年工作都可以。\n\n03:38.556 --> 03:38.576\n范雲\n\n03:54.338 --> 04:18.746\n那所以你的意思是說社工師不需要走這個一般專業人才的這條路嗎?因為社工師我們看他的平均薪資喔欸等一下社工師的平均薪資喔那其實是是並沒有到4萬嘛他是113年前社工調整的起薪只有37000元欸那這部分的這個矛盾是怎麼解決?\n\n04:21.434 --> 04:42.728\n對,基本上如果他走的,我剛才說有三個管道嘛,他基本走的是一般專業人才,的確要符合月薪4797,可是如果他是橋外申的話,他如果不是橋外申,橋外申點數加起來會夠,這是我們知道的,那是一個不錯的領域的辦法。那可是今天他如果走的不是,就是橋外申這條路呢?\n\n04:43.288 --> 05:11.473\n是就還是要符合就符法的那這樣子我們這個開放的意義跟這之間的矛盾我想問的是說專業人才為什麼社工師不被當成是個專業那我們考量的到底是一個國家的產業譬如說某些工程師需要還是也看到社會的需求那社工因為他不被認為是個產業很多都是政府部門或是NGO外包的所以我們就看不到社會其實也有這個需求\n\n05:12.830 --> 05:12.850\n范雲\n\n05:35.490 --> 06:01.991\n因為一般專業人才的主管部會還是勞動部啦法規的主管部會啦齁那在沒有修法之前的確一定要符合月薪47971的相關規定那我是不是可以請勞動部組密來說明一下當初設定這個標準的立法的意思跟原則是怎麼樣那在設公司的適用上面是怎麼樣那因為我時間快到是可以簡短說明好嗎是所以這之間是不需要處理的嗎嗯\n\n06:06.501 --> 06:09.071\n委員報告目前這個我們的這個\n\n06:10.796 --> 06:10.816\n范雲\n\n06:39.306 --> 06:55.297\n所以你們基本上社工師指對就是在台灣念完大學的喬生開放嗎?他只要取得那個我們的社工師的證照就可以符合。可是取得社工師證照他的薪資並沒有達到這個部分啊?\n\n06:56.816 --> 06:57.196\n范雲指揮委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.284,"end":9.485,"text":"國發會副主委"},{"start":20.077,"end":50.077,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":50.157,"end":50.177,"text":"范雲"},{"start":68.115,"end":68.315,"text":"范雲議員范雲"},{"start":97.29,"end":97.55,"text":"范雲章章章章"},{"start":125.346,"end":125.366,"text":"范雲"},{"start":151.222,"end":153.064,"text":"則不予審查：范雲"},{"start":169.761,"end":169.781,"text":"范雲"},{"start":188.976,"end":214.693,"text":"那我現在是想問您啊,不過這是勞動部的新聞喔,因為勞動部有預告說外國人以後可以在台灣當社工師喔,那衛福部有認同具專業性。那我想請問副主委就是說,如果是一個社工師的話,那目前會符合你們這個相關的已有的規定嗎?我覺得對,應該是外國專業人才你們就符合。因為我剛剛有講過他只要有僱主,而且他有薪資47971,對,大學畢業兩年工作都可以。"},{"start":218.556,"end":218.576,"text":"范雲"},{"start":234.338,"end":258.746,"text":"那所以你的意思是說社工師不需要走這個一般專業人才的這條路嗎?因為社工師我們看他的平均薪資喔欸等一下社工師的平均薪資喔那其實是是並沒有到4萬嘛他是113年前社工調整的起薪只有37000元欸那這部分的這個矛盾是怎麼解決?"},{"start":261.434,"end":282.728,"text":"對,基本上如果他走的,我剛才說有三個管道嘛,他基本走的是一般專業人才,的確要符合月薪4797,可是如果他是橋外申的話,他如果不是橋外申,橋外申點數加起來會夠,這是我們知道的,那是一個不錯的領域的辦法。那可是今天他如果走的不是,就是橋外申這條路呢?"},{"start":283.288,"end":311.473,"text":"是就還是要符合就符法的那這樣子我們這個開放的意義跟這之間的矛盾我想問的是說專業人才為什麼社工師不被當成是個專業那我們考量的到底是一個國家的產業譬如說某些工程師需要還是也看到社會的需求那社工因為他不被認為是個產業很多都是政府部門或是NGO外包的所以我們就看不到社會其實也有這個需求"},{"start":312.83,"end":312.85,"text":"范雲"},{"start":335.49,"end":361.991,"text":"因為一般專業人才的主管部會還是勞動部啦法規的主管部會啦齁那在沒有修法之前的確一定要符合月薪47971的相關規定那我是不是可以請勞動部組密來說明一下當初設定這個標準的立法的意思跟原則是怎麼樣那在設公司的適用上面是怎麼樣那因為我時間快到是可以簡短說明好嗎是所以這之間是不需要處理的嗎嗯"},{"start":366.501,"end":369.071,"text":"委員報告目前這個我們的這個"},{"start":370.796,"end":370.816,"text":"范雲"},{"start":399.306,"end":415.297,"text":"所以你們基本上社工師指對就是在台灣念完大學的喬生開放嗎?他只要取得那個我們的社工師的證照就可以符合。可是取得社工師證照他的薪資並沒有達到這個部分啊?"},{"start":416.816,"end":417.196,"text":"范雲指揮委員"},{"start":446.135,"end":453.166,"text":"響鐘"}]}}}}