{"id":152834,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152834","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d40e28ae2767b5d306fc1a8a999f94a213b43bbf2d64d2017cdf3a1d6a51b60fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"12:08:45 - 12:21:28","影片長度":"00:12:43","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":763,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T12:21:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T12:08:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":693,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（12時8分）謝謝主席，先請李遠部長、李靜慧次長。"],["主席：好，請李部長和李次長。"],["李部長遠：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：本席延續前面委員的質詢內容，因為剛剛有提到，哇！剛才次長是不是藐視國會的行為？所以本席必須確認一下。次長，剛剛葉元之委員請問你有關文學館標案的問題，你回答時有稍微停頓，請問你是在思考？還是你拒絕答復？還是你準備要說謊？"],["李次長靜慧：沒有，我在思考。"],["吳委員沛憶：請問部長，你認為剛才次長回答時有停頓，讓立委質疑是不是在藐視國會，你認為他是有意要拒絕答復嗎？"],["李部長遠：你看我們次長這麼老實的樣子，怎麼可能呢？"],["吳委員沛憶：是，本席的觀察也是這樣子，但是本席在這邊還是要說，本席非常反對制定藐視國會罪，為什麼？因為拒絕答復由誰決定？倘若依照現在多數反對黨提出的藐視國會罪，剛才這個情形發生了，只要多數黨的立委連署就可以構成藐視國會罪，送院會決議還可以懲戒、彈劾，這完全沒有客觀的依據。","本席認為未來質詢台是平行的關係，為什麼？因為我們必須辯論，辯論才能夠讓真理越辯越明。倘若藐視國會罪定下去，變成上對下的關係，只要有權力關係就沒辦法好好的辯論，這無助於我們釐清事實，也無助於我們推動事情的進步。次長先請回，接下來本席要請教部長。","因為本席有特別來聽你今天的報告，讓本席想起人生第一部走進電影院看的電影，是爸爸帶我去看的「多桑」，我在爸爸的書桌上也常常看到部長的書。剛才有委員問到部長是70世代，本席是30世代，但本席有看到一部漫畫「潮浪群雄」，是以臺灣電影1980年代的新浪潮為背景所做的創作。","其中本席印象很深刻的是在這個漫畫的其中一格，右邊這一位應該是部長吧？左邊這一位是吳念真導演，當時你們是兩個年輕人，走進中影製片公司，就在西門町的漢中街，那時候你也是剛進入這個位置，對臺灣電影的改革有一個很大的夢想。但是你們兩個當時有一個辯論，就是進來這邊真的有辦法做什麼事情嗎？你說：我只是很好奇，占了位置是否真能改變什麼？","今天本席看到部長進入中華民國行政院的團隊，擔任臺灣文化最高主管機關的首長，所以本席想請教部長，對於臺灣文化的未來，你希望推動什麼樣的改變？"],["李部長遠：其實我來之前滿猶豫的，因為我覺得也許很多人會做得比我好，又比我年輕。但是我覺得，就是因為我走過電影這條路，曾經在1980年代走過，從大家看不起的臺灣電影，一直到走向國際。我也很喜歡繪本、寫作，我覺得臺灣很多作品沒有翻譯到國外去等等，我們一直覺得臺灣在文化上好像少了一些助力，所以我最後答應來做這個職務，因為可以做的事情非常多。"],["吳委員沛憶：有非常多的事情要改變，沒有錯。"],["李部長遠：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們除了希望可以仰賴你做為文化人對文化的熟悉，以及對文化社群的了解，我們也要仰賴你過去的文化行政經驗，因為行政還是非常重要的。所以有關臺文館的抄襲風波，本席也很關切，目前文化部給出的回應是送政風處查核，我們要對廠商提告，再來，我們要研議依約來解約，還有館長及副館長都自請處分。但本席還想要請問一個最重要的問題，我們能不能依法提報，把這個廠商列為拒絕往來戶？"],["李部長遠：這個我們已經做了。"],["吳委員沛憶：可以嘛！對不對？採購法就有這樣的規定，可以提報為拒絕往來戶。在這個案件裡面，我們要記取什麼樣的教訓？首先，剛才部長也說了，抄襲當然零容忍，絕對不能接受，但是我們在事件後續的處理，第一時間我們沒有得到最正確的資訊，反而讓官方粉絲頁帳號發布錯誤的訊息，造成二度傷害，這個發文者就是小編，他屬於我們委託做主視覺創作的同一家廠商。","部長了解本席的意思嗎？這個畫圖的人、抄襲的人，和幫他發文提供錯誤資訊給館方，說這不是抄襲的，都屬於同一個廠商的員工，但是因為這個小編是這家廠商在文學館的駐點人員，大家有長期互動，可能就形成一種默契。所以本席覺得要檢討的是，我們必須建立一些制度，第一，文化部有沒有抄襲事件發生時的處理流程？有沒有相關的SOP？","第二個，文化部不是只有臺文館，轄下有非常多場館都有在經營社群帳號，社群帳號的發文有沒有建立一個SOP？當然，發文時文化部有人員看過，可是你們沒有一個事實查核的程序嘛！所以這個小編告訴你們這沒有抄襲，你們就相信了。本席覺得相關程序要建立起來，也希望部長能夠開始盤點，現在文化部本部和相關轄管的單位到底有多少帳號，你們知不知道？還沒有盤點過嘛！趕快去盤點。","現在這個時代，社群帳號就代表官方，社群不是小編一個人負責就好，而且小編也沒有辦法替你們負責，發生事件再來切割也不是正確的處理態度。所以趕快去盤點到底有多少帳號，每一個帳號背後發文的那個單位有沒有相關的程序？未來發生爭議事件的時候，要經過什麼樣的確認，這個文才可以發出去？因為這就是過去官方的新聞稿，你們要等同重視處理，好不好？部長，這個部分要儘快去做，本席認為一個月內要盤點出來，並且把這份報告提供給本委員會，讓所有委員了解。"],["李部長遠：好的，OK，我們會照做。"],["吳委員沛憶：接下來要和部長討論的，也是本席非常關注的，因為正好就在本席的選區。史博館好不容易開始整修，但是過去6年來不斷遭受到政治攻擊，本席認為當中有很多是認知作戰和假訊息，說史博館的整修是在去中國化。部長，你有沒有看到相關的新聞和討論？"],["李部長遠：有，我不但有看到，還有人寫信給我。"],["吳委員沛憶：有人寫信給你？"],["李部長遠：對。說這個……"],["吳委員沛憶：你的回應是什麼？"],["李部長遠：我沒有回應，因為我還沒看到，後來我有去現場看，我覺得是臺灣社會在認知上，兩個族群互相不信任，只要改得比較現代一點，或者改的過程其實並沒有那個意思，例如只是拿掉楊英風設計的水池，就認為是去中國化，我覺得是簡化了那個過程。因為我後來有去看，我發現它是……"],["吳委員沛憶：你有到現場看？"],["李部長遠：有的，後來我自己跑去看。因為這是我非常熟悉的環境，我小時候就住在附近，這是我長大的地方，那個水池本身並不具備歷史建物的條件，它是用一些卵石堆砌，也不是假山假水，後來重新設計的時候覺得擺在那邊很怪，所以就和楊英風的家屬溝通可不可以把它填平，然後再擺一個楊英風的作品。來告訴我的朋友認為那個作品很醜，他不知道那是楊英風的作品，大概是這樣。","我覺得都是誤會啦！我們已經對外解釋，包括搬家後記憶最深的咖啡館，那時候我爸爸媽媽也常常去，因為它是違章建築，所以重新做的時候就把它拿掉了，像這個……"],["吳委員沛憶：所以會不會因為有人這樣批評，我們就改變規劃？"],["李部長遠：我覺得不會。就像剛才你說的抄襲事件也好，史博館的改建也好，我們的社會一定要對話，否則對立會越來越強，它明明是一個改建，而且完全沒有別的意思，就是找建築師用現代的觀念重新改造。我覺得每一件事情的發生都應該回到真相，剛才你說的那個抄襲事件，我覺得很嚴重，但是我們回到它的真相，就知道剛才說的帳號問題、小編問題，背後有很嚴重的一連串問題。包括臺灣對美學的看法，怎麼樣是最美的東西？我們的建築物怎麼樣最美？這也是需要溝通的觀念。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，所以我們改革時最常遇到的，就是叫你改回來。所以部長，本席認同要好好的說明、好好的溝通，我們是基於什麼樣的理由進行改建，讓社會大眾能夠更加了解。最後，本席要回到一開始給部長看的這部漫畫，因為本席還有另外一張，也是印象很深刻的。這個戴眼鏡的是部長，裡面就提到，你以為我們是那種輕易屈服的年輕人嗎？年輕人，你們就是要有熱情啦！要用智慧來突圍。","當時你們有一個對話是說還可以用智慧來突圍，但我們卻連機會都沒有。這就是本席現在看到的臺灣文化界，也是很多年輕一輩創作者遇到的困境，一如你們在1980年代所遇到的困境一樣，有非常強大的夢想，也非常踏實在基層努力，但是文化界已經形成一個資深制的體制，當年有小野、吳念真，也許現在我們這一輩的吳念真、小野已經存在，但是他們還沒有被看見，他們還沒有機會占一個位置看看可以改變什麼，這時候就需要我們給他一個機會。","所以本席希望文化部能夠檢視，因為包括教育部等相關單位就有這樣的計畫，教育部目前對於文化領域的學生有在畢業之後支持他們去國外學習的相關計畫，文化部比較缺少，本席覺得可惜了，所以希望部長可以全面盤點，目前文化部各單位既有的政策工具裡面，有哪些是可以專注支持年輕人，為臺灣培養下一代的文化創作者，好不好？"],["李部長遠：我可不可以說一句話？"],["吳委員沛憶：可以。"],["李部長遠：當年我們在中央電影公司做了很多事情，其實我們只做了一個動作，就是把門打開，讓所有有能力的人進來，哪怕他們很年輕，像侯孝賢、楊德昌、柯一正、張毅。我只做了一個動作，就是把門打開，不再封閉。同樣的，我雖然是這個年紀了，但我不會因為這個年紀而改變我的觀念，我覺得一個社會當中創造力最強的就是年輕世代，將來我希望文化部是年輕人很喜歡的，也能從這邊得到資源的單位。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。謝謝吳沛憶委員，部長請回。接下來我們先處理臨時提案。","今天有委員提出臨時提案，共4案，請宣讀。","一、","據悉，文化部預計從2023至2027年執行文化幣政策，迄今已投入近22億元，鼓勵16-22歲的青年體驗藝文生活，未來更預計降低領取年齡至13歲，以引導資金挹注於工藝、音樂、圖書、台灣電影及表演藝術等產業。政策立意良善，卻時有所聞各地表演藝術團隊因不清楚全台各縣市文化幣使用情形，而難以評估每一表演場次是否應規劃青年席次及其數額之窘況；再者，因各縣市藝文事業及人口分布特性，文化幣亦有集中於六都消費之現象，不利於推動文化平權。","爰此，為促進資訊揭露、規劃文化平權推動方針，請文化部於一個月內規劃「每季提出並公告文化幣之使用報告」，內容應包括全國及各縣市已領取人數及年齡及比例、已使用金額及比例、使用場域與項目分佈年齡及金額及比例（如：用於獨立書店、青年席次、觀賞國片等）、藝文消費點分佈數量及比例、短期藝文消費點分佈數量及比例（如：市集、街頭藝人、文創展會等）、其他有利藝文通路及團體及工作者設計相關行銷方案或促進文化平權之資料數據，以發揮文化幣累計消費數據之最大效益。","提案人：陳培瑜　　林宜瑾","連署人：郭昱晴　　陳秀寳　　范　雲　　吳沛憶","二、","《文化創意產業發展法》修正條文於去年五月修正通過，其中特別因應社會事件以及產業變化通過了「打擊黃牛」以及「投資內容產業應享有租稅優惠」的相關條文。其中本法有關打擊黃牛之立法條文第10條之1已於112年6月2日施行，請貴機關說明該法案施行後之執行情形，並針對執行情形提出評估。同時，有關投資內容產業應享有租稅優惠之相關條文，文化部也已於12月1日已完成發布「公司或有限合夥事業投資國家戰略重點文化創意產業投資抵減辦法」、「個人投資國家戰略重點文化創意產業所得額減除辦法」及「文化部辦理國家戰略重點文化創意產業投資抵減或所得額減除之申請及審核作業要點」。請貴部提出，此法案通過後之施行狀況並針對「國家戰略重點文創產業」之現行申請狀況進行申請類別之分析。","提案人：蘇巧慧　　陳秀寳　　林宜瑾　　陳培瑜　　張雅琳　　范　雲　　","三、","行政院於2021年8月核定「國家兒童未來館興建計畫」座落在新板特專三文化設施用地，興建經費更由原先近130億元增至約165億元，中央政府全額出資新建，文化部更經徵選，邀請張瑪龍陳玉霖聯合建築師事務所與日本伊東豊雄建築設計事務所參與國家兒童未來館之設計。國家兒童未來館將成為國家級之廠館，樂觀其成，建請文化部督促如期發包，於2026年動工興建，並於兼顧品質之下加速完工。","提案人：蘇巧慧　　張宏陸　　陳培瑜　　陳秀寳　　林宜瑾　　張雅琳　　范　雲","四、","案由：本院林倩綺委員，有鑑於今年（113）元月、案號113教正0002監察院糾正指出，文化部有關公共藝術設置，往往以「行政代辦」之名行「全部委辦」之實，少數代辦甚至索取回扣、與得標公司有重大異常關聯，成為利益集團統籌與利益分配者。文化部始終以未接獲陳情檢舉為由，對特定代辦壟斷四成以上案件態樣視若無睹。文化部專家學者資料庫中委員僅366人，專業層面分布不均且多年未新增。對此，文化部稱已著手重新檢視、調整與擴展；而有不肖業者以不正手法取得標案、壟斷市場等違法行為，文化部稱已要求代辦公司揭露。文化部更回應指稱將展開最大規模公共藝術修法。基於該糾正案件至今尚未結案，文化部應針對糾正內容詳實列出已具體改善成效、未完成項目預定完成時間表以及有關大幅修法之草案與進度，並於一個月內完整回覆立法院教育及文化委員會。","提案人：林倩綺　　洪孟楷　　羅廷瑋"],["主席：好，現在處理第1案。第1案提案人陳培瑜委員有沒有補充意見？"],["陳委員培瑜：我沒有補充意見，但是文化部好像要修改，可不可以請文創司先說明？還是文化部？部長應該沒辦法先說明，直接請文創司說明好了，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請司長說明。"],["江司長清松：是，報告委員，我們的建議就是對於委員提案我們都會尊重，不過為了後面的推動，是不是在第二大段規劃文化平權推動方針，請文化部於一個月內規劃每季提出並公告文化幣之使用報告這個部分，其中「一個月內」可不可以改為「三個月」？「使用報告」的部分是不是可以加兩個字，改為「重點使用報告」？另外，第二段第五行括弧內的部分「如：用於獨立書店、青年席次、觀賞國片等」可不可以先刪除？第二段第六行的「短期藝文消費點分佈數量」因為在藝文消費點裡面已經含括，所以這部分是不是可以刪除，也包含後面括弧的部分？以上建議。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝文創司。那我請問一下，文化幣從推動到現在，你們有進行相關資料整理的業務報告或者相關計畫報告嗎？到目前為止有嗎？其實往往都是在出現了很多新聞、弊案─例如說有人跑去美甲店、美髮店用了文化幣，或者有人在各式各樣的市集用了文化幣，在有相關新聞或輿論出來之後，文化部才會作出回應嘛！我們絕對認同文化幣的確是美意，而且它也確實促進了很多文化產業從業同仁的有感度，這是好的，但是我們也希望在有感度提升、預算也花下去的情況下蒐集相關數據，並且回過頭來把這些相關數據提供給相關從業人員，例如說讓他們設計年度行銷方案，或是協助文化幣的使用者，如果新年度再拿到文化幣，可以如何更加善用這些東西，所以我們才會希望你們應該定期提出相關報告。至於提案目前寫一個月的用意是要你們先規劃報告進度、先給一個月規劃，之後也許每一季提出前三個月的使用規劃，比較像是這樣。"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，我們非常認同委員的想法。但現在是這樣：委員剛剛提到那些狀況其實並不是所謂的弊案，而是在使用純化的過程。也就是說一開始的時候，我們放的範圍比較寬，再透過適用的方式漸漸收縮其範圍，所以現在看到更多事項不能夠使用文化幣，原因就在這裡。所以我們提出建議從一個月改到三個月，倒不是因為我們沒有在蒐集，事實上，以我們內部的數據，只要有人花文化幣，數據就會一直進來。只是現在處在變化的過程，包括我們現在採取新的方式，也就是電信認證的方式去蒐集資料，如果在很短期，前後資料可能對不起來，會覺得為什麼這裡的資料會是這樣、為什麼這裡的資料會不對。所以我們建議以比較長的期程、也就是一季的方式，用這個方式提報並且公告，這部分我們可以做到。"],["陳委員培瑜：次長，我跟你確認一下。照你剛剛說的，你們一直都在蒐集資訊，也不斷做出調整跟限縮，這部分絕對要給予文化部高度的肯定。假設在一個月內先提供你們已經針對前期做出統整的報告給所有教育及文化委員會委員做為參考的話，一個月可以讓你們改成三個月，可是之後你們有沒有規劃定期提出文化幣使用的相關報告？目前的規劃進度是？"],["王次長時思：我們一直認為這些數據因為開放政府的關係遲早都是要作特定的公告，但我們現在的作法是在尋求數據的穩定狀態。因為去年是18到21歲，今年是16歲到22歲，適用範圍與適用年齡其實一直在變化中，所以我們提出的報告、數字會讓大家非常confusing，這就是為什麼我們沒有現在就提出公告數字。若是要提出這樣的規劃跟未來要怎麼做，我們可以提出，沒有問題，只是希望委員可以同意我們現在提出的報告就是重點報告，因為它非常瑣細。前後適用的店家也可能會有所不同，譬如說前一個月這個店家在，但下個月店家數字會改變，包括它的營業項目。而且我們現在愈追愈細，譬如說禁止大家直接購買，譬如說不可以再買這些肥皂、手作產品等等，可是仍然可以手作，像這麼細緻的差異，在數據的呈現上會非常細微而瑣碎，那我們就會一直要解釋為什麼這些數據前後不吻合。我們擔心這樣的公告會造成大家的混亂，誤以為是我們執行的問題，但事實上在數據沒有穩定的狀態下公告，就會造成這些認知的差異。所以我們願意做這樣的規劃、願意提出來讓委員了解、也願意進行公告，只是希望時間可以比較長，在第一階段提出時就是針對目前的重點狀況提出，也就是這些分類統統都會在，委員也會看得到。"],["陳委員培瑜：次長，我們再聚焦一下。剛剛你們希望我們把一個月內……我們的寫法是一個月內規劃每季提出並公告文化幣之使用報告，對於這裡的「一個月」，你們希望我們改成「三個月」，讓你們有比較長的規劃時間處理報告怎麼呈現，對不對？"],["王次長時思：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這部分我可以接受。可是我要再次強調，我相信所有其他委員不會希望看到如你剛剛所說這麼細的資料，其實也是想看到目前在所有文化創意產業或從事文化產業的人員如何看待他們自己的工作或他們勞動的結果與文化幣之間的關係。"],["王次長時思：了解。"],["陳委員培瑜：因為對於很多人來說，他們也想知道到底消費者如何看待他手上的文化幣跟他所進行的文化消費。所以我可以接受一個月改為三個月，但是後續相關報告有機會每季提出嗎？還是你認為這個也要作調整？"],["王次長時思：沒有，只要穩定以後，每季提出對我們來說，本來內部也會作這樣的檢討。"],["陳委員培瑜：OK，好，那這沒有問題。","然後，剛才也提到空間部分要作調整嘛！對不對？"],["王次長時思：就是括弧裡面的部分。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，那可以刪掉，沒關係。"],["王次長時思：就是不用括弧裡的內容，我們本來就會處理。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，因為我相信你們，如果按照你剛剛講得這麼清楚，代表你們應該對很多場域的資料都在蒐集了。","那我順帶補充一點。其實文化幣有加碼、加碼、再加碼機制對不對？但是你有沒有聽到，在很多文化幣的消費點，去買的人拿文化幣先結帳完一批，等加碼幣跑出來再結帳第二批，在現場造成很多小店家的困境，對於這件事情……次長，你笑了！代表你知道。在我們看起來對消費者是好的，可是卻對店家造成結帳上的困境，我不知道這點有沒有什麼方法解決啦！"],["王次長時思：我們來看看有什麼更快的方法。這其實是消費端跟銷售端不同造成的差異，因為對消費端來說，希望有中獎的感覺。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，對消費者來說，當然希望買完再加碼嘛！可是對店家來說就是製造了結帳的麻煩。"],["王次長時思：但也增加了店家的收入可能性，所以是在平衡的狀況。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，沒有錯、沒有錯，但也許要拜託你們多想一想。"],["王次長時思：對，我們再想一想在執行上有沒有更簡化的程序。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，謝謝次長。至於其他修改沒有問題。"],["主席：好，謝謝培瑜委員，也謝謝次長的說明，那這個案子就照文化部的建議修正通過。","來看第2案。第2案的提案人是蘇巧慧委員，她也在現場，有什麼要補充說明的嗎？"],["蘇委員巧慧：對於我這項臨時提案，非常感謝文化部已經同意。我想，打擊黃牛這個部分以及我們希望的文化創意產業所得額減除辦法等等，這些都是對文化產業發展相當重要的。我等一下會質詢啦！所以就不再利用這個時間，既然貴部已經同意的話，我就等一下在臺上的時候說，謝謝。"],["主席：OK。","那文化部這邊有意見嗎？"],["李部長遠：遵照辦理。"],["主席：OK，好，第2案就照案通過。","處理第3案。第3案的提案人還是蘇巧慧委員。"],["蘇委員巧慧：關於這個提案，我們就是希望兒童未來館能夠順利地、如期如質地進行啦！也謝謝文化部已經同意。"],["主席：那文化部是否要說明？"],["李部長遠：遵照辦理。"],["主席：好，這一案也照案通過。","第4案是林倩綺委員的案子，有什麼需要補充說明的嗎？"],["林委員倩綺：部裡面都OK嗎？"],["李部長遠：我們是……"],["主席：有一些修正文字？"],["李部長遠：一點點，就是在案由之後直接接「有鑒於今年（113）」，就這樣，案由直接接第一段。最後則是少了一個字：「委員會」的「會」。"],["主席：對，好。"],["李部長遠：就是這兩個小地方。"],["林委員倩綺：第一段還要直接接嗎？剛剛我們有……"],["李部長遠：直接從「有鑒於今年（113）」……"],["林委員倩綺：如果是那個……"],["李部長遠：尊重委員，要保留嗎？保留，OK，好。"],["主席：可是提案通常是整個委員會的提案，所以基本上前面確實要刪掉。"],["林委員倩綺：那跟提案人沒關係。"],["主席：提案人是你，可是案由就不會再寫你的名字了，所以這部分還是文化部的意見比較OK。"],["林委員倩綺：沒關係。"],["李部長遠：好，建議修改文字。"],["主席：好，修改文字，那就是前面刪掉以及後面加個「會」，按照文化部的建議修正通過。","各提案如果有委員要補簽，請議事人員詳細登載在議事錄，補簽處在我的左手邊。","接下來請蘇巧慧委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","柯志恩","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","張雅琳","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","吳春城","范雲","葉元之","吳沛憶","蘇巧慧","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張智倫","陳冠廷","林楚茵"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135001_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"152834","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/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\"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"觀\"}, {\"word\": \"念\", \"start\": 745.439, \"end\": 745.459, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"吳\"}, {\"word\": \"沛\", \"start\": 746.3, \"end\": 746.32, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"憶\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 746.32, \"end\": 746.34, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,029 --> 00:00:01,570\n吳沛憶委員謝謝主席我先請李遠部長還有我們李靜慧次長好請李部長跟李次長委員好我延續前面委員的質詢內容因為剛剛我提到說\n\n2\n00:00:27,389 --> 00:00:31,111\n哇我們剛剛次長是不是有藐視國會的行為所以我必須確認一下次長剛剛這個葉元之委員在請問你有關於文學館這個標案的問題你在回答當中你有稍微停頓請問你是在思考還是你拒絕答覆還是你準備要說謊\n\n3\n00:00:45,472 --> 00:00:56,135\n沒有沒有在思考在思考那請問部長你認為剛剛我們次長中間有停頓讓我們的立委質疑說你是不是在藐視國會的時候你認為他是有意要拒絕答覆嗎你看我們的次長這麼老實的樣子怎麼可能呢是因為我的觀察也是這樣子但是呢我在這邊還是要講\n\n4\n00:01:08,991 --> 00:01:11,932\n我非常的反對要去制定藐視國會罪為什麼因為拒絕答覆由誰來決定倘若依照我們現在多數反對黨要提的這個藐視國會罪哇剛剛這個情形發生只要多數黨的立委去連署\n\n5\n00:01:25,094 --> 00:01:28,436\n就可以構成藐視國會罪收院會決議還可以懲戒彈劾這個完全沒有一個客觀的依據所以如果說這個罪定下去我認為未來我們在質詢質詢台是平行的關係為什麼因為我們不需要辯論有辯論才能夠把真理越辯越明倘若藐視國會罪定下去了變成上對下的關係只要有權力關係沒有辦法好好的辯論\n\n6\n00:01:51,829 --> 00:01:55,210\n市長請回那接下來我要請教部長因為前面我有特別來聽了你今天的報告那讓我想起說我人生第一部走進電影院看的電影是我爸爸帶我去看這個道桑\n\n7\n00:02:13,018 --> 00:02:37,374\n然後呢我在我爸的出桌上常常看到部長你的書剛剛前面委員問說部長你是七十世代那我是三十世代那我在我就看到呢有一個這個漫畫啦它叫做長老群雄它是以我們台灣電影新浪場就是1980年代新浪場為背景的創作其中我印象很深刻的在這個漫畫裡面其中一個右邊這一位應該是部長李吧\n\n8\n00:02:43,101 --> 00:02:46,383\n然後呢左邊這位是吳念真舞蹈那你們當時是兩個年輕人走進中影的製片公司就在我們西門町的漢中街那你那時候也是剛進入到這個位置對於改變台灣電影的改革有一個很大的夢想但是呢你們兩個當時有一個辯論說\n\n9\n00:03:05,375 --> 00:03:27,022\n進來這邊真的有辦法做什麼事情嗎那你說我只是很好奇站的位置是否真能改變什麼所以今天呢我看到部長你進到我們中華民國行政院的團隊也擔任我們台灣文化最高的主管機關的首長所以我想要請教部長你對於來推動台灣文化未來的改變你希望推動什麼樣的改變\n\n10\n00:03:31,149 --> 00:03:56,339\n其實我來之前蠻猶豫的因為我覺得也許很多人會做得比我好又比我年輕但是我覺得我就是因為走過電影曾經在1980年代走過從一個大家蠻看不起台灣電影可以到國際然後我也很喜歡繪本我也很喜歡寫作我也覺得台灣很多作品沒有翻譯到國外去等等\n\n11\n00:03:57,139 --> 00:04:20,771\n一直覺得台灣在文化上好像少了一些助力所以我最後答應來做就可以做的事情非常多有非常多的事情要改變沒有錯那除了是我們希望可以仰賴你作為文化人對文化的熟悉以及對文化社群的瞭解但是我們也要仰賴你過去的文化行政經驗因為行政還是非常重要所以呢台灣館的超型風波我也很關切\n\n12\n00:04:23,772 --> 00:04:41,947\n目前文化部給出的回應是我們進行了送政風柱查核我們要對廠商來提告然後再來我們要研議來依約來解約然後我們的這個館長及副館長都自請處分但還是想要請問一個最重要的問題我們能不能夠依法來提報把這個廠商列為拒絕往來戶\n\n13\n00:04:48,035 --> 00:04:48,876\n首先剛剛部長你也說了抄襲當然零容忍絕對不能接受\n\n14\n00:05:04,016 --> 00:05:06,898\n但是我們在事件後續的處理第一時間我們沒有得到最正確的資訊反而讓我們的官方的粉絲頁賬號去發布了錯誤的訊息造成了第二度的傷害那這個發文者他就是這個小編他就是我們委託來做這個主視覺創作的同一家廠商啊\n\n15\n00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,162\n部長瞭解我的意思嗎這個畫圖的人抄襲的人跟幫他發文說然後提供錯誤的資訊給我們管方說啊這個不是抄襲人他們是同一個廠商但是因為這個小編是家廠商在文學館的駐點人員大家長期在互動可能就形成了一種默契\n\n16\n00:05:48,692 --> 00:05:54,820\n所以我覺得要檢討的就是我們必須要去建立第一個我們文化部有沒有針對抄襲事件發生時候處理的流程有沒有相關的SOP第二個文化部不只台灣館我們非常多的轄下的這個場館都有在經營社群帳號\n\n17\n00:06:05,874 --> 00:06:05,894\n吳沛憶\n\n18\n00:06:23,780 --> 00:06:23,800\n委員會議員\n\n19\n00:06:44,813 --> 00:06:50,474\n社群不是小編一個人負責小編沒有辦法替你們負責發生事件再來切割也都不是正確處理的態度所以趕快去盤點到底有多少帳號每一個帳號背後發文那個單位有沒有相關的程序那未來有發生爭議事件的時候經過什麼樣的確認這個文才可以發出去因為這就是我們過去官方的新聞稿你們要等同來重視處理好不好\n\n20\n00:07:10,538 --> 00:07:39,650\n部長這個要盡快我認為一個月內要把它盤點出來並且把這個報告提供給本委員會所有的委員瞭解好那接下來要跟部長討論的是也是我非常關注因為正好呢就在我的選區史博館好不容易開始整修但是過去6年來呢不斷有遭受到一個政治攻擊當中我認為很多是認知作戰跟繳訊息說我們史博館的整修是在去中國化那部長你有沒有看到相關的新聞跟討論\n\n21\n00:07:40,470 --> 00:08:00,241\n有有我不但看到還有人寫信給我有人寫信給你那你的回應是什麼我的回應我沒有回應因為我還沒看到後來我真的去現場看到我覺得是一個台灣社會在認知上大家兩個族群非常不信任只要是改的比較現代一點或者是改的過程並沒有\n\n22\n00:08:01,181 --> 00:08:01,201\n吳沛憶\n\n23\n00:08:22,483 --> 00:08:47,611\n他那個水池本身並不具備了歷史建物的條件他是用一些軟石在堆砌他也不是假山假水所以後來重新設計試的時候覺得擺在那邊很怪他就跟楊英峰的家屬溝通可不可以把它填平而且再擺一個楊英峰的作品那跟我講的朋友是認為那個作品很醜他不知道是楊英峰的作品大概是這樣我覺得都是一種誤會啦\n\n24\n00:08:48,951 --> 00:09:00,658\n那我覺得這一點要我們已經都要解釋包括大家記憶中最深的那個咖啡館我爸爸媽媽也常常去他也因為它是圍山建築所以重新做的時候就把它拿掉這樣\n\n25\n00:09:02,503 --> 00:09:25,940\n會不會因為有人這樣子批評我們就去改變我們的規劃我覺得不會的原因是就像剛才你講抄襲的事情也好使不完的改建也好我們這個社會一定需要對話否則它那個對立越來越強就是說它明明是一個改建而且完全沒有別的意思重新找個現代建築師來用現代觀念再重新改造\n\n26\n00:09:27,061 --> 00:09:27,922\n吳沛憶委員\n\n27\n00:09:44,612 --> 00:09:44,632\n吳沛憶議員\n\n28\n00:10:05,266 --> 00:10:20,332\n說明好好的溝通那我們是基於什麼樣的理由來進行改建那就讓社會當中能更加的了解那最後呢是我要回到我剛剛一開始也不好看的這個漫畫因為我還有另外一張也是印象深刻的\n\n29\n00:10:23,235 --> 00:10:27,236\n這個戴眼鏡的是部長那裡面你就提到說你以為我們是那種輕易屈服的年輕人嗎那年輕人你們就是要有熱情要用智慧來突圍當時你們一個對話是說還用智慧來突圍我們連機會都沒有\n\n30\n00:10:43,792 --> 00:10:46,934\n那就是我現在看到我們台灣文化界年輕一輩的很多的創作者他們所遇到的困境就一如你們在1980年代所遇到的困境一樣有非常強大的夢想也非常的踏實在基層在努力\n\n31\n00:11:01,744 --> 00:11:05,366\n但是在文化界裡面已經形成了一個資深制的一個體制讓很多的年輕人也許當年的小野當年的吳念真現在我們這一輩的吳念真這一輩的小野他們已經存在但是他們還沒有被看見他們還沒有機會站一個位置來看看可以改變什麼\n\n32\n00:11:27,509 --> 00:11:47,735\n就需要我們給他一個機會所以呢我希望我們文化部能夠去檢視因為包括我們教育部相關的單位教育部目前對於文化領域的學生有這種畢業之後支持他們去去國外學習相關的計畫文化部比較缺少我覺得可惜了所以希望部長你可以全面來盤點\n\n33\n00:11:48,775 --> 00:11:59,605\n我們文化部目前各個單位既有的政策工具裡面有哪些我們是可以來專注支持年輕人為台灣去培養下一代的文化創作者好不好\n\n34\n00:12:01,496 --> 00:12:25,459\n我可不可以講一句話,就是當年我們在中央電影公司做了很多事情,其實我們只做一個動作,就是把門打開,讓所有有能力的人進來,哪怕是他們很年輕,像侯孝賢、楊德昌、柯一正、張毅,我只做了一個動作,就是把門打開,不再封閉,同樣的我說的是這個年紀,我不會因為這個年紀而改變我的觀念,\n\n35\n00:12:26,300 --> 00:12:26,340\n謝謝吳沛憶委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n29\t1570\t吳沛憶委員謝謝主席我先請李遠部長還有我們李靜慧次長好請李部長跟李次長委員好我延續前面委員的質詢內容因為剛剛我提到說\n27389\t31111\t哇 我們剛剛次長是不是有藐視國會的行為所以我必須確認一下次長剛剛這個葉元之委員在請問你有關於文學館這個標案的問題你在回答當中你有稍微停頓請問你是在思考還是你拒絕答覆還是你準備要說謊\n45472\t56135\t沒有沒有在思考在思考那請問部長你認為剛剛我們次長中間有停頓讓我們的立委質疑說你是不是在藐視國會的時候你認為他是有意要拒絕答覆嗎你看我們的次長這麼老實的樣子怎麼可能呢是因為我的觀察也是這樣子但是呢我在這邊還是要講\n68991\t71932\t我非常的反對要去制定藐視國會罪為什麼因為拒絕答覆由誰來決定倘若依照我們現在多數反對黨要提的這個藐視國會罪哇剛剛這個情形發生只要多數黨的立委去連署\n85094\t88436\t就可以構成藐視國會罪收院會決議還可以懲戒彈劾這個完全沒有一個客觀的依據所以如果說這個罪定下去我認為未來我們在質詢質詢台是平行的關係為什麼因為我們不需要辯論有辯論才能夠把真理越辯越明倘若藐視國會罪定下去了變成上對下的關係只要有權力關係沒有辦法好好的辯論\n111829\t115210\t市長請回那接下來我要請教部長因為前面我有特別來聽了你今天的報告那讓我想起說我人生第一部走進電影院看的電影是我爸爸帶我去看這個道桑\n133018\t157374\t然後呢我在我爸的出桌上常常看到部長你的書剛剛前面委員問說部長你是七十世代那我是三十世代那我在我就看到呢有一個這個漫畫啦它叫做長老群雄它是以我們台灣電影新浪場就是1980年代新浪場為背景的創作其中我印象很深刻的在這個漫畫裡面其中一個右邊這一位應該是部長李吧\n163101\t166383\t然後呢左邊這位是吳念真舞蹈那你們當時是兩個年輕人走進中影的製片公司就在我們西門町的漢中街那你那時候也是剛進入到這個位置對於改變台灣電影的改革有一個很大的夢想但是呢你們兩個當時有一個辯論說\n185375\t207022\t進來這邊真的有辦法做什麼事情嗎那你說我只是很好奇站的位置是否真能改變什麼所以今天呢我看到部長你進到我們中華民國行政院的團隊也擔任我們台灣文化最高的主管機關的首長所以我想要請教部長你對於來推動台灣文化未來的改變你希望推動什麼樣的改變\n211149\t236339\t其實我來之前蠻猶豫的因為我覺得也許很多人會做得比我好又比我年輕但是我覺得我就是因為走過電影曾經在1980年代走過從一個大家蠻看不起台灣電影可以到國際然後我也很喜歡繪本我也很喜歡寫作我也覺得台灣很多作品沒有翻譯到國外去等等\n237139\t260771\t一直覺得台灣在文化上好像少了一些助力所以我最後答應來做就可以做的事情非常多有非常多的事情要改變沒有錯那除了是我們希望可以仰賴你作為文化人對文化的熟悉以及對文化社群的瞭解但是我們也要仰賴你過去的文化行政經驗因為行政還是非常重要所以呢台灣館的超型風波我也很關切\n263772\t281947\t目前文化部給出的回應是我們進行了送政風柱查核我們要對廠商來提告然後再來我們要研議來依約來解約然後我們的這個館長及副館長都自請處分但還是想要請問一個最重要的問題我們能不能夠依法來提報把這個廠商列為拒絕往來戶\n288035\t288876\t首先剛剛部長你也說了抄襲當然零容忍 絕對不能接受\n304016\t306898\t但是我們在事件後續的處理第一時間我們沒有得到最正確的資訊反而讓我們的官方的粉絲頁賬號去發布了錯誤的訊息造成了第二度的傷害那這個發文者他就是這個小編他就是我們委託來做這個主視覺創作的同一家廠商啊\n328800\t332162\t部長瞭解我的意思嗎這個畫圖的人抄襲的人跟幫他發文說然後提供錯誤的資訊給我們管方說啊這個不是抄襲人他們是同一個廠商但是因為這個小編是家廠商在文學館的駐點人員大家長期在互動可能就形成了一種默契\n348692\t354820\t所以我覺得要檢討的就是我們必須要去建立第一個我們文化部有沒有針對抄襲事件發生時候處理的流程有沒有相關的SOP第二個文化部不只台灣館我們非常多的轄下的這個場館都有在經營社群帳號\n365874\t365894\t吳沛憶\n383780\t383800\t委員會議員\n404813\t410474\t社群不是小編一個人負責小編沒有辦法替你們負責發生事件再來切割也都不是正確處理的態度所以趕快去盤點到底有多少帳號每一個帳號背後發文那個單位有沒有相關的程序那未來有發生爭議事件的時候經過什麼樣的確認這個文才可以發出去因為這就是我們過去官方的新聞稿你們要等同來重視處理好不好\n430538\t459650\t部長這個要盡快我認為一個月內要把它盤點出來並且把這個報告提供給本委員會所有的委員瞭解好那接下來要跟部長討論的是也是我非常關注因為正好呢就在我的選區史博館好不容易開始整修但是過去6年來呢不斷有遭受到一個政治攻擊當中我認為很多是認知作戰跟繳訊息說我們史博館的整修是在去中國化那部長你有沒有看到相關的新聞跟討論\n460470\t480241\t有有我不但看到還有人寫信給我有人寫信給你那你的回應是什麼我的回應我沒有回應因為我還沒看到後來我真的去現場看到我覺得是一個台灣社會在認知上大家兩個族群非常不信任只要是改的比較現代一點或者是改的過程並沒有\n481181\t481201\t吳沛憶\n502483\t527611\t他那個水池本身並不具備了歷史建物的條件他是用一些軟石在堆砌他也不是假山假水所以後來重新設計試的時候覺得擺在那邊很怪他就跟楊英峰的家屬溝通可不可以把它填平而且再擺一個楊英峰的作品那跟我講的朋友是認為那個作品很醜他不知道是楊英峰的作品大概是這樣我覺得都是一種誤會啦\n528951\t540658\t那我覺得這一點要我們已經都要解釋包括大家記憶中最深的那個咖啡館我爸爸媽媽也常常去他也因為它是圍山建築所以重新做的時候就把它拿掉這樣\n542503\t565940\t會不會因為有人這樣子批評我們就去改變我們的規劃我覺得不會的原因是就像剛才你講抄襲的事情也好使不完的改建也好我們這個社會一定需要對話否則它那個對立越來越強就是說它明明是一個改建而且完全沒有別的意思重新找個現代建築師來用現代觀念再重新改造\n567061\t567922\t吳沛憶委員\n584612\t584632\t吳沛憶議員\n605266\t620332\t說明好好的溝通那我們是基於什麼樣的理由來進行改建那就讓社會當中能更加的了解那最後呢是我要回到我剛剛一開始也不好看的這個漫畫因為我還有另外一張也是印象深刻的\n623235\t627236\t這個戴眼鏡的是部長那裡面你就提到說你以為我們是那種輕易屈服的年輕人嗎那年輕人你們就是要有熱情要用智慧來突圍當時你們一個對話是說還用智慧來突圍我們連機會都沒有\n643792\t646934\t那就是我現在看到我們台灣文化界年輕一輩的很多的創作者他們所遇到的困境就一如你們在1980年代所遇到的困境一樣有非常強大的夢想也非常的踏實在基層在努力\n661744\t665366\t但是在文化界裡面已經形成了一個資深制的一個體制讓很多的年輕人也許當年的小野當年的吳念真現在我們這一輩的吳念真這一輩的小野他們已經存在但是他們還沒有被看見他們還沒有機會站一個位置來看看可以改變什麼\n687509\t707735\t就需要我們給他一個機會所以呢我希望我們文化部能夠去檢視因為包括我們教育部相關的單位教育部目前對於文化領域的學生有這種畢業之後支持他們去去國外學習相關的計畫文化部比較缺少我覺得可惜了所以希望部長你可以全面來盤點\n708775\t719605\t我們文化部目前各個單位既有的政策工具裡面有哪些我們是可以來專注支持年輕人為台灣去培養下一代的文化創作者好不好\n721496\t745459\t我可不可以講一句話,就是當年我們在中央電影公司做了很多事情,其實我們只做一個動作,就是把門打開,讓所有有能力的人進來,哪怕是他們很年輕,像侯孝賢、楊德昌、柯一正、張毅,我只做了一個動作,就是把門打開,不再封閉,同樣的我說的是這個年紀,我不會因為這個年紀而改變我的觀念,\n746300\t746340\t謝謝吳沛憶委員\n","txt":"吳沛憶委員謝謝主席我先請李遠部長還有我們李靜慧次長好請李部長跟李次長委員好我延續前面委員的質詢內容因為剛剛我提到說\n哇 我們剛剛次長是不是有藐視國會的行為所以我必須確認一下次長剛剛這個葉元之委員在請問你有關於文學館這個標案的問題你在回答當中你有稍微停頓請問你是在思考還是你拒絕答覆還是你準備要說謊\n沒有沒有在思考在思考那請問部長你認為剛剛我們次長中間有停頓讓我們的立委質疑說你是不是在藐視國會的時候你認為他是有意要拒絕答覆嗎你看我們的次長這麼老實的樣子怎麼可能呢是因為我的觀察也是這樣子但是呢我在這邊還是要講\n我非常的反對要去制定藐視國會罪為什麼因為拒絕答覆由誰來決定倘若依照我們現在多數反對黨要提的這個藐視國會罪哇剛剛這個情形發生只要多數黨的立委去連署\n就可以構成藐視國會罪收院會決議還可以懲戒彈劾這個完全沒有一個客觀的依據所以如果說這個罪定下去我認為未來我們在質詢質詢台是平行的關係為什麼因為我們不需要辯論有辯論才能夠把真理越辯越明倘若藐視國會罪定下去了變成上對下的關係只要有權力關係沒有辦法好好的辯論\n市長請回那接下來我要請教部長因為前面我有特別來聽了你今天的報告那讓我想起說我人生第一部走進電影院看的電影是我爸爸帶我去看這個道桑\n然後呢我在我爸的出桌上常常看到部長你的書剛剛前面委員問說部長你是七十世代那我是三十世代那我在我就看到呢有一個這個漫畫啦它叫做長老群雄它是以我們台灣電影新浪場就是1980年代新浪場為背景的創作其中我印象很深刻的在這個漫畫裡面其中一個右邊這一位應該是部長李吧\n然後呢左邊這位是吳念真舞蹈那你們當時是兩個年輕人走進中影的製片公司就在我們西門町的漢中街那你那時候也是剛進入到這個位置對於改變台灣電影的改革有一個很大的夢想但是呢你們兩個當時有一個辯論說\n進來這邊真的有辦法做什麼事情嗎那你說我只是很好奇站的位置是否真能改變什麼所以今天呢我看到部長你進到我們中華民國行政院的團隊也擔任我們台灣文化最高的主管機關的首長所以我想要請教部長你對於來推動台灣文化未來的改變你希望推動什麼樣的改變\n其實我來之前蠻猶豫的因為我覺得也許很多人會做得比我好又比我年輕但是我覺得我就是因為走過電影曾經在1980年代走過從一個大家蠻看不起台灣電影可以到國際然後我也很喜歡繪本我也很喜歡寫作我也覺得台灣很多作品沒有翻譯到國外去等等\n一直覺得台灣在文化上好像少了一些助力所以我最後答應來做就可以做的事情非常多有非常多的事情要改變沒有錯那除了是我們希望可以仰賴你作為文化人對文化的熟悉以及對文化社群的瞭解但是我們也要仰賴你過去的文化行政經驗因為行政還是非常重要所以呢台灣館的超型風波我也很關切\n目前文化部給出的回應是我們進行了送政風柱查核我們要對廠商來提告然後再來我們要研議來依約來解約然後我們的這個館長及副館長都自請處分但還是想要請問一個最重要的問題我們能不能夠依法來提報把這個廠商列為拒絕往來戶\n首先剛剛部長你也說了抄襲當然零容忍 絕對不能接受\n但是我們在事件後續的處理第一時間我們沒有得到最正確的資訊反而讓我們的官方的粉絲頁賬號去發布了錯誤的訊息造成了第二度的傷害那這個發文者他就是這個小編他就是我們委託來做這個主視覺創作的同一家廠商啊\n部長瞭解我的意思嗎這個畫圖的人抄襲的人跟幫他發文說然後提供錯誤的資訊給我們管方說啊這個不是抄襲人他們是同一個廠商但是因為這個小編是家廠商在文學館的駐點人員大家長期在互動可能就形成了一種默契\n所以我覺得要檢討的就是我們必須要去建立第一個我們文化部有沒有針對抄襲事件發生時候處理的流程有沒有相關的SOP第二個文化部不只台灣館我們非常多的轄下的這個場館都有在經營社群帳號\n吳沛憶\n委員會議員\n社群不是小編一個人負責小編沒有辦法替你們負責發生事件再來切割也都不是正確處理的態度所以趕快去盤點到底有多少帳號每一個帳號背後發文那個單位有沒有相關的程序那未來有發生爭議事件的時候經過什麼樣的確認這個文才可以發出去因為這就是我們過去官方的新聞稿你們要等同來重視處理好不好\n部長這個要盡快我認為一個月內要把它盤點出來並且把這個報告提供給本委員會所有的委員瞭解好那接下來要跟部長討論的是也是我非常關注因為正好呢就在我的選區史博館好不容易開始整修但是過去6年來呢不斷有遭受到一個政治攻擊當中我認為很多是認知作戰跟繳訊息說我們史博館的整修是在去中國化那部長你有沒有看到相關的新聞跟討論\n有有我不但看到還有人寫信給我有人寫信給你那你的回應是什麼我的回應我沒有回應因為我還沒看到後來我真的去現場看到我覺得是一個台灣社會在認知上大家兩個族群非常不信任只要是改的比較現代一點或者是改的過程並沒有\n吳沛憶\n他那個水池本身並不具備了歷史建物的條件他是用一些軟石在堆砌他也不是假山假水所以後來重新設計試的時候覺得擺在那邊很怪他就跟楊英峰的家屬溝通可不可以把它填平而且再擺一個楊英峰的作品那跟我講的朋友是認為那個作品很醜他不知道是楊英峰的作品大概是這樣我覺得都是一種誤會啦\n那我覺得這一點要我們已經都要解釋包括大家記憶中最深的那個咖啡館我爸爸媽媽也常常去他也因為它是圍山建築所以重新做的時候就把它拿掉這樣\n會不會因為有人這樣子批評我們就去改變我們的規劃我覺得不會的原因是就像剛才你講抄襲的事情也好使不完的改建也好我們這個社會一定需要對話否則它那個對立越來越強就是說它明明是一個改建而且完全沒有別的意思重新找個現代建築師來用現代觀念再重新改造\n吳沛憶委員\n吳沛憶議員\n說明好好的溝通那我們是基於什麼樣的理由來進行改建那就讓社會當中能更加的了解那最後呢是我要回到我剛剛一開始也不好看的這個漫畫因為我還有另外一張也是印象深刻的\n這個戴眼鏡的是部長那裡面你就提到說你以為我們是那種輕易屈服的年輕人嗎那年輕人你們就是要有熱情要用智慧來突圍當時你們一個對話是說還用智慧來突圍我們連機會都沒有\n那就是我現在看到我們台灣文化界年輕一輩的很多的創作者他們所遇到的困境就一如你們在1980年代所遇到的困境一樣有非常強大的夢想也非常的踏實在基層在努力\n但是在文化界裡面已經形成了一個資深制的一個體制讓很多的年輕人也許當年的小野當年的吳念真現在我們這一輩的吳念真這一輩的小野他們已經存在但是他們還沒有被看見他們還沒有機會站一個位置來看看可以改變什麼\n就需要我們給他一個機會所以呢我希望我們文化部能夠去檢視因為包括我們教育部相關的單位教育部目前對於文化領域的學生有這種畢業之後支持他們去去國外學習相關的計畫文化部比較缺少我覺得可惜了所以希望部長你可以全面來盤點\n我們文化部目前各個單位既有的政策工具裡面有哪些我們是可以來專注支持年輕人為台灣去培養下一代的文化創作者好不好\n我可不可以講一句話,就是當年我們在中央電影公司做了很多事情,其實我們只做一個動作,就是把門打開,讓所有有能力的人進來,哪怕是他們很年輕,像侯孝賢、楊德昌、柯一正、張毅,我只做了一個動作,就是把門打開,不再封閉,同樣的我說的是這個年紀,我不會因為這個年紀而改變我的觀念,\n謝謝吳沛憶委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.029 --> 00:01.570\n吳沛憶委員謝謝主席我先請李遠部長還有我們李靜慧次長好請李部長跟李次長委員好我延續前面委員的質詢內容因為剛剛我提到說\n\n00:27.389 --> 00:31.111\n哇我們剛剛次長是不是有藐視國會的行為所以我必須確認一下次長剛剛這個葉元之委員在請問你有關於文學館這個標案的問題你在回答當中你有稍微停頓請問你是在思考還是你拒絕答覆還是你準備要說謊\n\n00:45.472 --> 00:56.135\n沒有沒有在思考在思考那請問部長你認為剛剛我們次長中間有停頓讓我們的立委質疑說你是不是在藐視國會的時候你認為他是有意要拒絕答覆嗎你看我們的次長這麼老實的樣子怎麼可能呢是因為我的觀察也是這樣子但是呢我在這邊還是要講\n\n01:08.991 --> 01:11.932\n我非常的反對要去制定藐視國會罪為什麼因為拒絕答覆由誰來決定倘若依照我們現在多數反對黨要提的這個藐視國會罪哇剛剛這個情形發生只要多數黨的立委去連署\n\n01:25.094 --> 01:28.436\n就可以構成藐視國會罪收院會決議還可以懲戒彈劾這個完全沒有一個客觀的依據所以如果說這個罪定下去我認為未來我們在質詢質詢台是平行的關係為什麼因為我們不需要辯論有辯論才能夠把真理越辯越明倘若藐視國會罪定下去了變成上對下的關係只要有權力關係沒有辦法好好的辯論\n\n01:51.829 --> 01:55.210\n市長請回那接下來我要請教部長因為前面我有特別來聽了你今天的報告那讓我想起說我人生第一部走進電影院看的電影是我爸爸帶我去看這個道桑\n\n02:13.018 --> 02:37.374\n然後呢我在我爸的出桌上常常看到部長你的書剛剛前面委員問說部長你是七十世代那我是三十世代那我在我就看到呢有一個這個漫畫啦它叫做長老群雄它是以我們台灣電影新浪場就是1980年代新浪場為背景的創作其中我印象很深刻的在這個漫畫裡面其中一個右邊這一位應該是部長李吧\n\n02:43.101 --> 02:46.383\n然後呢左邊這位是吳念真舞蹈那你們當時是兩個年輕人走進中影的製片公司就在我們西門町的漢中街那你那時候也是剛進入到這個位置對於改變台灣電影的改革有一個很大的夢想但是呢你們兩個當時有一個辯論說\n\n03:05.375 --> 03:27.022\n進來這邊真的有辦法做什麼事情嗎那你說我只是很好奇站的位置是否真能改變什麼所以今天呢我看到部長你進到我們中華民國行政院的團隊也擔任我們台灣文化最高的主管機關的首長所以我想要請教部長你對於來推動台灣文化未來的改變你希望推動什麼樣的改變\n\n03:31.149 --> 03:56.339\n其實我來之前蠻猶豫的因為我覺得也許很多人會做得比我好又比我年輕但是我覺得我就是因為走過電影曾經在1980年代走過從一個大家蠻看不起台灣電影可以到國際然後我也很喜歡繪本我也很喜歡寫作我也覺得台灣很多作品沒有翻譯到國外去等等\n\n03:57.139 --> 04:20.771\n一直覺得台灣在文化上好像少了一些助力所以我最後答應來做就可以做的事情非常多有非常多的事情要改變沒有錯那除了是我們希望可以仰賴你作為文化人對文化的熟悉以及對文化社群的瞭解但是我們也要仰賴你過去的文化行政經驗因為行政還是非常重要所以呢台灣館的超型風波我也很關切\n\n04:23.772 --> 04:41.947\n目前文化部給出的回應是我們進行了送政風柱查核我們要對廠商來提告然後再來我們要研議來依約來解約然後我們的這個館長及副館長都自請處分但還是想要請問一個最重要的問題我們能不能夠依法來提報把這個廠商列為拒絕往來戶\n\n04:48.035 --> 04:48.876\n首先剛剛部長你也說了抄襲當然零容忍絕對不能接受\n\n05:04.016 --> 05:06.898\n但是我們在事件後續的處理第一時間我們沒有得到最正確的資訊反而讓我們的官方的粉絲頁賬號去發布了錯誤的訊息造成了第二度的傷害那這個發文者他就是這個小編他就是我們委託來做這個主視覺創作的同一家廠商啊\n\n05:28.800 --> 05:32.162\n部長瞭解我的意思嗎這個畫圖的人抄襲的人跟幫他發文說然後提供錯誤的資訊給我們管方說啊這個不是抄襲人他們是同一個廠商但是因為這個小編是家廠商在文學館的駐點人員大家長期在互動可能就形成了一種默契\n\n05:48.692 --> 05:54.820\n所以我覺得要檢討的就是我們必須要去建立第一個我們文化部有沒有針對抄襲事件發生時候處理的流程有沒有相關的SOP第二個文化部不只台灣館我們非常多的轄下的這個場館都有在經營社群帳號\n\n06:05.874 --> 06:05.894\n吳沛憶\n\n06:23.780 --> 06:23.800\n委員會議員\n\n06:44.813 --> 06:50.474\n社群不是小編一個人負責小編沒有辦法替你們負責發生事件再來切割也都不是正確處理的態度所以趕快去盤點到底有多少帳號每一個帳號背後發文那個單位有沒有相關的程序那未來有發生爭議事件的時候經過什麼樣的確認這個文才可以發出去因為這就是我們過去官方的新聞稿你們要等同來重視處理好不好\n\n07:10.538 --> 07:39.650\n部長這個要盡快我認為一個月內要把它盤點出來並且把這個報告提供給本委員會所有的委員瞭解好那接下來要跟部長討論的是也是我非常關注因為正好呢就在我的選區史博館好不容易開始整修但是過去6年來呢不斷有遭受到一個政治攻擊當中我認為很多是認知作戰跟繳訊息說我們史博館的整修是在去中國化那部長你有沒有看到相關的新聞跟討論\n\n07:40.470 --> 08:00.241\n有有我不但看到還有人寫信給我有人寫信給你那你的回應是什麼我的回應我沒有回應因為我還沒看到後來我真的去現場看到我覺得是一個台灣社會在認知上大家兩個族群非常不信任只要是改的比較現代一點或者是改的過程並沒有\n\n08:01.181 --> 08:01.201\n吳沛憶\n\n08:22.483 --> 08:47.611\n他那個水池本身並不具備了歷史建物的條件他是用一些軟石在堆砌他也不是假山假水所以後來重新設計試的時候覺得擺在那邊很怪他就跟楊英峰的家屬溝通可不可以把它填平而且再擺一個楊英峰的作品那跟我講的朋友是認為那個作品很醜他不知道是楊英峰的作品大概是這樣我覺得都是一種誤會啦\n\n08:48.951 --> 09:00.658\n那我覺得這一點要我們已經都要解釋包括大家記憶中最深的那個咖啡館我爸爸媽媽也常常去他也因為它是圍山建築所以重新做的時候就把它拿掉這樣\n\n09:02.503 --> 09:25.940\n會不會因為有人這樣子批評我們就去改變我們的規劃我覺得不會的原因是就像剛才你講抄襲的事情也好使不完的改建也好我們這個社會一定需要對話否則它那個對立越來越強就是說它明明是一個改建而且完全沒有別的意思重新找個現代建築師來用現代觀念再重新改造\n\n09:27.061 --> 09:27.922\n吳沛憶委員\n\n09:44.612 --> 09:44.632\n吳沛憶議員\n\n10:05.266 --> 10:20.332\n說明好好的溝通那我們是基於什麼樣的理由來進行改建那就讓社會當中能更加的了解那最後呢是我要回到我剛剛一開始也不好看的這個漫畫因為我還有另外一張也是印象深刻的\n\n10:23.235 --> 10:27.236\n這個戴眼鏡的是部長那裡面你就提到說你以為我們是那種輕易屈服的年輕人嗎那年輕人你們就是要有熱情要用智慧來突圍當時你們一個對話是說還用智慧來突圍我們連機會都沒有\n\n10:43.792 --> 10:46.934\n那就是我現在看到我們台灣文化界年輕一輩的很多的創作者他們所遇到的困境就一如你們在1980年代所遇到的困境一樣有非常強大的夢想也非常的踏實在基層在努力\n\n11:01.744 --> 11:05.366\n但是在文化界裡面已經形成了一個資深制的一個體制讓很多的年輕人也許當年的小野當年的吳念真現在我們這一輩的吳念真這一輩的小野他們已經存在但是他們還沒有被看見他們還沒有機會站一個位置來看看可以改變什麼\n\n11:27.509 --> 11:47.735\n就需要我們給他一個機會所以呢我希望我們文化部能夠去檢視因為包括我們教育部相關的單位教育部目前對於文化領域的學生有這種畢業之後支持他們去去國外學習相關的計畫文化部比較缺少我覺得可惜了所以希望部長你可以全面來盤點\n\n11:48.775 --> 11:59.605\n我們文化部目前各個單位既有的政策工具裡面有哪些我們是可以來專注支持年輕人為台灣去培養下一代的文化創作者好不好\n\n12:01.496 --> 12:25.459\n我可不可以講一句話,就是當年我們在中央電影公司做了很多事情,其實我們只做一個動作,就是把門打開,讓所有有能力的人進來,哪怕是他們很年輕,像侯孝賢、楊德昌、柯一正、張毅,我只做了一個動作,就是把門打開,不再封閉,同樣的我說的是這個年紀,我不會因為這個年紀而改變我的觀念,\n\n12:26.300 --> 12:26.340\n謝謝吳沛憶委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.029,"end":1.57,"text":"吳沛憶委員謝謝主席我先請李遠部長還有我們李靜慧次長好請李部長跟李次長委員好我延續前面委員的質詢內容因為剛剛我提到說"},{"start":27.389,"end":31.111,"text":"哇 我們剛剛次長是不是有藐視國會的行為所以我必須確認一下次長剛剛這個葉元之委員在請問你有關於文學館這個標案的問題你在回答當中你有稍微停頓請問你是在思考還是你拒絕答覆還是你準備要說謊"},{"start":45.472,"end":56.135,"text":"沒有沒有在思考在思考那請問部長你認為剛剛我們次長中間有停頓讓我們的立委質疑說你是不是在藐視國會的時候你認為他是有意要拒絕答覆嗎你看我們的次長這麼老實的樣子怎麼可能呢是因為我的觀察也是這樣子但是呢我在這邊還是要講"},{"start":68.991,"end":71.932,"text":"我非常的反對要去制定藐視國會罪為什麼因為拒絕答覆由誰來決定倘若依照我們現在多數反對黨要提的這個藐視國會罪哇剛剛這個情形發生只要多數黨的立委去連署"},{"start":85.094,"end":88.436,"text":"就可以構成藐視國會罪收院會決議還可以懲戒彈劾這個完全沒有一個客觀的依據所以如果說這個罪定下去我認為未來我們在質詢質詢台是平行的關係為什麼因為我們不需要辯論有辯論才能夠把真理越辯越明倘若藐視國會罪定下去了變成上對下的關係只要有權力關係沒有辦法好好的辯論"},{"start":111.829,"end":115.21,"text":"市長請回那接下來我要請教部長因為前面我有特別來聽了你今天的報告那讓我想起說我人生第一部走進電影院看的電影是我爸爸帶我去看這個道桑"},{"start":133.018,"end":157.374,"text":"然後呢我在我爸的出桌上常常看到部長你的書剛剛前面委員問說部長你是七十世代那我是三十世代那我在我就看到呢有一個這個漫畫啦它叫做長老群雄它是以我們台灣電影新浪場就是1980年代新浪場為背景的創作其中我印象很深刻的在這個漫畫裡面其中一個右邊這一位應該是部長李吧"},{"start":163.101,"end":166.383,"text":"然後呢左邊這位是吳念真舞蹈那你們當時是兩個年輕人走進中影的製片公司就在我們西門町的漢中街那你那時候也是剛進入到這個位置對於改變台灣電影的改革有一個很大的夢想但是呢你們兩個當時有一個辯論說"},{"start":185.375,"end":207.022,"text":"進來這邊真的有辦法做什麼事情嗎那你說我只是很好奇站的位置是否真能改變什麼所以今天呢我看到部長你進到我們中華民國行政院的團隊也擔任我們台灣文化最高的主管機關的首長所以我想要請教部長你對於來推動台灣文化未來的改變你希望推動什麼樣的改變"},{"start":211.149,"end":236.339,"text":"其實我來之前蠻猶豫的因為我覺得也許很多人會做得比我好又比我年輕但是我覺得我就是因為走過電影曾經在1980年代走過從一個大家蠻看不起台灣電影可以到國際然後我也很喜歡繪本我也很喜歡寫作我也覺得台灣很多作品沒有翻譯到國外去等等"},{"start":237.139,"end":260.771,"text":"一直覺得台灣在文化上好像少了一些助力所以我最後答應來做就可以做的事情非常多有非常多的事情要改變沒有錯那除了是我們希望可以仰賴你作為文化人對文化的熟悉以及對文化社群的瞭解但是我們也要仰賴你過去的文化行政經驗因為行政還是非常重要所以呢台灣館的超型風波我也很關切"},{"start":263.772,"end":281.947,"text":"目前文化部給出的回應是我們進行了送政風柱查核我們要對廠商來提告然後再來我們要研議來依約來解約然後我們的這個館長及副館長都自請處分但還是想要請問一個最重要的問題我們能不能夠依法來提報把這個廠商列為拒絕往來戶"},{"start":288.035,"end":288.876,"text":"首先剛剛部長你也說了抄襲當然零容忍 絕對不能接受"},{"start":304.016,"end":306.898,"text":"但是我們在事件後續的處理第一時間我們沒有得到最正確的資訊反而讓我們的官方的粉絲頁賬號去發布了錯誤的訊息造成了第二度的傷害那這個發文者他就是這個小編他就是我們委託來做這個主視覺創作的同一家廠商啊"},{"start":328.8,"end":332.162,"text":"部長瞭解我的意思嗎這個畫圖的人抄襲的人跟幫他發文說然後提供錯誤的資訊給我們管方說啊這個不是抄襲人他們是同一個廠商但是因為這個小編是家廠商在文學館的駐點人員大家長期在互動可能就形成了一種默契"},{"start":348.692,"end":354.82,"text":"所以我覺得要檢討的就是我們必須要去建立第一個我們文化部有沒有針對抄襲事件發生時候處理的流程有沒有相關的SOP第二個文化部不只台灣館我們非常多的轄下的這個場館都有在經營社群帳號"},{"start":365.874,"end":365.894,"text":"吳沛憶"},{"start":383.78,"end":383.8,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":404.813,"end":410.474,"text":"社群不是小編一個人負責小編沒有辦法替你們負責發生事件再來切割也都不是正確處理的態度所以趕快去盤點到底有多少帳號每一個帳號背後發文那個單位有沒有相關的程序那未來有發生爭議事件的時候經過什麼樣的確認這個文才可以發出去因為這就是我們過去官方的新聞稿你們要等同來重視處理好不好"},{"start":430.538,"end":459.65,"text":"部長這個要盡快我認為一個月內要把它盤點出來並且把這個報告提供給本委員會所有的委員瞭解好那接下來要跟部長討論的是也是我非常關注因為正好呢就在我的選區史博館好不容易開始整修但是過去6年來呢不斷有遭受到一個政治攻擊當中我認為很多是認知作戰跟繳訊息說我們史博館的整修是在去中國化那部長你有沒有看到相關的新聞跟討論"},{"start":460.47,"end":480.241,"text":"有有我不但看到還有人寫信給我有人寫信給你那你的回應是什麼我的回應我沒有回應因為我還沒看到後來我真的去現場看到我覺得是一個台灣社會在認知上大家兩個族群非常不信任只要是改的比較現代一點或者是改的過程並沒有"},{"start":481.181,"end":481.201,"text":"吳沛憶"},{"start":502.483,"end":527.611,"text":"他那個水池本身並不具備了歷史建物的條件他是用一些軟石在堆砌他也不是假山假水所以後來重新設計試的時候覺得擺在那邊很怪他就跟楊英峰的家屬溝通可不可以把它填平而且再擺一個楊英峰的作品那跟我講的朋友是認為那個作品很醜他不知道是楊英峰的作品大概是這樣我覺得都是一種誤會啦"},{"start":528.951,"end":540.658,"text":"那我覺得這一點要我們已經都要解釋包括大家記憶中最深的那個咖啡館我爸爸媽媽也常常去他也因為它是圍山建築所以重新做的時候就把它拿掉這樣"},{"start":542.503,"end":565.94,"text":"會不會因為有人這樣子批評我們就去改變我們的規劃我覺得不會的原因是就像剛才你講抄襲的事情也好使不完的改建也好我們這個社會一定需要對話否則它那個對立越來越強就是說它明明是一個改建而且完全沒有別的意思重新找個現代建築師來用現代觀念再重新改造"},{"start":567.061,"end":567.922,"text":"吳沛憶委員"},{"start":584.612,"end":584.632,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":605.266,"end":620.332,"text":"說明好好的溝通那我們是基於什麼樣的理由來進行改建那就讓社會當中能更加的了解那最後呢是我要回到我剛剛一開始也不好看的這個漫畫因為我還有另外一張也是印象深刻的"},{"start":623.235,"end":627.236,"text":"這個戴眼鏡的是部長那裡面你就提到說你以為我們是那種輕易屈服的年輕人嗎那年輕人你們就是要有熱情要用智慧來突圍當時你們一個對話是說還用智慧來突圍我們連機會都沒有"},{"start":643.792,"end":646.934,"text":"那就是我現在看到我們台灣文化界年輕一輩的很多的創作者他們所遇到的困境就一如你們在1980年代所遇到的困境一樣有非常強大的夢想也非常的踏實在基層在努力"},{"start":661.744,"end":665.366,"text":"但是在文化界裡面已經形成了一個資深制的一個體制讓很多的年輕人也許當年的小野當年的吳念真現在我們這一輩的吳念真這一輩的小野他們已經存在但是他們還沒有被看見他們還沒有機會站一個位置來看看可以改變什麼"},{"start":687.509,"end":707.735,"text":"就需要我們給他一個機會所以呢我希望我們文化部能夠去檢視因為包括我們教育部相關的單位教育部目前對於文化領域的學生有這種畢業之後支持他們去去國外學習相關的計畫文化部比較缺少我覺得可惜了所以希望部長你可以全面來盤點"},{"start":708.775,"end":719.605,"text":"我們文化部目前各個單位既有的政策工具裡面有哪些我們是可以來專注支持年輕人為台灣去培養下一代的文化創作者好不好"},{"start":721.496,"end":745.459,"text":"我可不可以講一句話,就是當年我們在中央電影公司做了很多事情,其實我們只做一個動作,就是把門打開,讓所有有能力的人進來,哪怕是他們很年輕,像侯孝賢、楊德昌、柯一正、張毅,我只做了一個動作,就是把門打開,不再封閉,同樣的我說的是這個年紀,我不會因為這個年紀而改變我的觀念,"},{"start":746.3,"end":746.34,"text":"謝謝吳沛憶委員"}]}}}}