{"id":152840,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152840","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9dbe8df221fd51159c49cdfe559183542c3b43bbf2d64d20177aa4682f413d97b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"12:05:55 - 12:25:43","影片長度":"00:19:48","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":1188,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T12:25:43+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T12:05:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1048,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（12時6分）主席，是不是請彭部長？"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，今天一個早上的質詢令我刮目相看，因為所有業務都是你本人親自回答。"],["彭部長啓明：不敢。"],["林委員淑芬：看起來很認真，而且也有一定程度的專業，我不認為你說你剛來，看起來像很嫻熟。","大家都就氣候變遷、碳費等等來討論，但我今天要跟你談一點不一樣的，上個月食藥署公布邊境查驗不合格的產品，其中有一項是頂呱呱從中國進口的漢堡盒，該產品檢驗的醋酸測試結果溶出達到1132ppm，比標準足足多了37倍，你有看到這個新聞嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：有。"],["林委員淑芬：好，不過我今天要說的是比這個更嚴重的，我要說的是PFAS這個化學物質家族，臺灣源頭的管制遠遠落後於國際的管制，這個問題事實上在你們今天的業務報告裡面也講了一些，我先跟你就這個議題再深入的討論。","我們這麼落後於國際的規範，甚至連食品包材都沒有規範，許多消費性的民生商品都可以發現有這個化學物質家族，但是整個國家，不管是你這個環境部門，還是衛生部門，全部都沒有積極地在管制，讓我們的人民在日常生活當中，可以輕易地接觸到對環境、對人體健康影響極大的PFAS化學物質，更何況還是食品包裝的包材，還有大家天天在使用的一次性紙袋等等。","大家都知道PFAS是化學物質的一個大家族，其中最知名的物質就是PFOA、PFOS等等，它的化學物質超過一萬兩千多種，它是屬於人工合成的，而且是永久性的化學物質。PFAS的物質經常出現在我們講的消費性產品，防油、防水、耐高溫、抗腐蝕，所以廚房裡面有很多，包括不沾鍋，包括防油的紙袋、紙盒，我們身體上穿戴的也很多，像防水衣褲，還有消防器材等等，都含有PFAS這個化學物質。這個化學物質它帶有親水基，所以在自然環境中幾乎不可能消失，而且會跟著水在地球到處滲透，進入我們的土壤，到我們的食物鏈，最後都到人體裡面來，這個不容易分解的特性讓PFAS在環境中的濃度，對生物的危害會不斷地累積而放大。","根據瑞典斯德哥爾摩大學一篇研究，在PFAS家族裡面，光是PFOS、PFOA、PFHxS、PFNA這4種在雨水中的濃度，已經超過美國飲用水終生健康建議值、丹麥飲用水限值、歐盟地表水的環境品質標準，斯德哥爾摩的研究說它都超過了這一些標準，PFAS無所不在，其實都被民眾吃進去，我們都吃下去了。","2021年一份一次性包裝永久化學殘留的報告調查了，歐盟6個國家，他們做了一次性食品包裝或是餐具當中是不是含有PFAS的狀況的調查，結果檢測42個項目，有多少的檢出你知道嗎？部長，你知道嗎？猜猜看，這個叫你回答出來，我覺得太困難了，你猜一下，歐盟6個國家，檢測42個項目，有多少檢出你知道嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：應該比例很高，9成以上。"],["林委員淑芬：32個，這是2021年。到了2023年，另一份報告它收集了連臺灣在內17個國家、119個食品包裝容器，結果超過一半，54%，有64個樣本檢出含有PFAS，所以你知道臺灣食品包裝，一次性的包裝，包括我們可能吃水煎包，或者吃這個，我忘了那叫什麼名字。"],["謝署長燕儒：爆玉米花。"],["林委員淑芬：等等，便當盒……"],["彭部長啓明：喔，對。"],["林委員淑芬：咖啡杯、飲料，如果是紙杯的，大概全部都有塗層，使用PFAS的可能性都很大。我們現在說大家都在用，我們有人1天不是用1個，你1天吃2個便當，再加上早餐外帶的早餐盒，再加上速食店、喝咖啡，我想很多人1天用了5個、6個、7個、8個、9個、10個，都含有PFAS，那我們就要來問了，PFAS對人體的危害風險有多大？"],["彭部長啓明：很大。報告委員，我最近特別看了幾個資料，例如說我們有幾個水庫水質檢測，那個PFAS真的很高。"],["林委員淑芬：我有看到你的報告裡面有寫。"],["彭部長啓明：對，PFAS很高。"],["林委員淑芬：但你先聽我說，美國疾病管制中心在2011到2012年，這個已經是十幾年前了，他們收集的資料報告顯示，97%的美國人血液當中含有PFAS。","歐洲有一個人類生物監測計畫，從2014監測到2021，針對歐洲9個國家12歲到18歲的青年人，總共有1,957個血清樣本，他們檢測12種PFAS物質的含量，結果有14.3%的樣本，血液中的PFAS濃度超過歐洲食品安全局建議的安全標準。12到18歲多年輕啊！這麼年輕的小孩就有這麼多的PFAS血液濃度，那年紀越大會累積更多哦！各位，我們的年紀都比年輕人更大，我們吃進去的更多哦！","我們來看，2023（去）年日本研究調查東京多摩地區650位居民血液中的PFAS濃度，發現PFOS和PFOA的平均濃度是全國平均值的2.4倍，所以東京都廳就馬上停用多摩地區內40個水井，因為在這些水源當中檢測出PFAS物質。","針對PFAS，我們都說這個風險在哪裡？這兩大化學物質，PFAS裡面最有名的就是PFOA和PFOS，我剛剛講的也都是PFOA和PFOS，已有足夠的研究證明它跟部分疾病是高度相關，包括甲狀腺疾病、腎臟癌、肝損傷、血脂濃度、心血管疾病、睪丸癌、乳癌、降低女性生育率，還有最重要的，接觸胎兒後，對胎兒有很多短中長期的影響。我的意思是，臺灣做了什麼？臺灣做了什麼？部長，我希望你是第一個高度關心而且積極管制的部長，過去的臺灣，不管是衛生單位，不管是環境部門，都沒有做什麼，都沒做！"],["彭部長啓明：關於這個部分，因為我讀了報告我也嚇一跳，就是這幾天我在……"],["林委員淑芬：我再跟你報告一下，因為你就看那個水質報告而已，那還沒有列管，只是增加一個檢測而已。我現在講說PFAS在臺灣，我們的管制不足，遠遠落後於國際公約，而且我剛剛講PFAS所造成的危害逐漸被各國所共識，所有的國家都已經紛紛地領先斯德哥爾摩公約的管制哦！斯德哥爾摩公約的列管已經是國際上管制的最低標準，很多國家的管制標準都高於斯德哥爾摩公約，而我們都還遠遠落後於斯德哥爾摩公約之後，我就說這個國際公約是最落後、最低標準，我們連最低標準都還看不到車尾燈啊！","我就講最低標準好了，斯德哥爾摩公約列管了PFAS家族下的PFOS、PFOA還有PFHxS，最早被列管的PFOS家族是以附有CAS號碼的方式列出8種PFOS家族，我國只有跟進列管幾種你知道嗎？這是最有名的，而且危害相對風險最高的8種，我們列管了幾種你知道嗎？業務單位說，我覺得這個叫部長回答太難了。"],["謝署長燕儒：原來是4種，我們在4月27日再公告了147種……"],["林委員淑芬：你現在隨便說說，你有聽到我在說嗎？我在問你的是PFOS有8種，列管了3種，你講的4種是加了PFOA裡面的1種，你只列管了1種，可是人家光是PFOA家族有364種，你只列管了1種。","PFOS有8種，你只列管了3種，PFOA有364種，你只列管了1種。你說加起來一百多是因為今年斯德哥爾摩公約在列管PFHxS化學物質147種，它一次列管公布所有清單，我們才跟進，把PFHxS列管全部，所以你是今年才加了這一個物質，列管了147種。最嚴重的、大家最常用的PFOA、PFOS，你只列管4種，可是全部有364加8種。"],["謝署長燕儒：是，這部分我們正在研議當中，也會把它列管。"],["林委員淑芬：我有看到啦！我有看到今天的報告。現在我要再請部長，PFAS這些化學物質大概有一萬兩千多種，根據我剛剛的報告，公約明定三大要列管的化學物質就是PFOA、PFOS、PFHxS，這三大是公約明確，它是最低標準，就是說這3個一定要管，有519種，加起來519種一定要列管，可是我們加起來就只有151種，遠遠落後於國際最低標準的公約標準，而公約是全世界各國管制裡面的最低標準，我們看不到人家的車尾燈，我們光是這3個化學物質還少了368種，可不可以一併馬上列管？"],["彭部長啓明：Stockholm這個公約是建議出來，但是我們也觀察其他的國家有沒有訂。"],["林委員淑芬：最低標準。"],["彭部長啓明：對，我們會持續地保持關注，所以委員的建議我們會……"],["林委員淑芬：不是關注啦！要列管啦！"],["謝署長燕儒：報告委員，能不能讓我補充一下？"],["林委員淑芬：好。"],["謝署長燕儒：我們從這個禮拜一開始，應該是昨天，我們邀請了瑞典的3位專家，他就是起草那個一萬多種……"],["林委員淑芬：好啦！沒關係啦！"],["謝署長燕儒：對，到臺灣來。"],["林委員淑芬：你跟我講，你們什麼時候要列管啦！還沒有列入管理的，一併列管啊！"],["謝署長燕儒：我們會按照程序來做研商。"],["林委員淑芬：好，我再就教部長，這可能是你比較沒有關注到的，但是我再問你，跟上斯德哥爾摩公約是最低標準，但是不要忘了我們有自己的法律，我們應該根據毒管法來做的事情還很多，我們既有化學物質有兩萬種化學物質列冊，但是我們既有化學物質裡面有821種屬於PFAS這個大家族，根據毒管法的定義，只有建置於既有化學物質清冊的化學物質才叫做既有化學物質，所以1萬2,000多個PFAS的化學物質，既有化學物質有821個，所以對我國而言，只有這821種PFAS才叫做既有的PFAS，其他1萬1,000多種沒有列入既有化學物質清冊的PFAS，都是新的PFAS、新的化學物質。根據毒性化學物質管理法第三十條，製造或輸入新化學物質或是要申請登錄的時候，其實都要經核准才能夠製造或輸入。既然已經知道PFAS這一類化學物質不容易分解，它的半衰期，你知道像PFOA在人體中的半衰期要3.5年，可是我們天天在吃啊！你這一天吃的要3.5年，明天吃的又要3.5年，其實你永遠都代謝不完！永遠都存在！所以PFAS在環境當中的半衰期則相當長，譬如說我剛剛講的PFOA在人體內要3.5年，但是它在水體中要多少年才會衰減一半？猜猜看啦！我知道這有一點難，在水體中要92年才會衰減一半，所以它對生物體的危害有所累積，對人體、環境影響大，這樣的特性和風險相當、相當的大，所以我們化學署在核准登錄的時候，都應該按照毒管法第三十一條，中央主管機關評估新化學物質之特性有符合毒性或關注化學物質定義之虞者，應於核准登錄時附以附款，要求提供化學物質危害資訊、更新登錄相關報告資料或定期申報運作情形，必要時並禁止或限制其運作。針對今年公布的PFHxS 147種，我知道你們已經登錄為第一類毒性化學物質，其他相對確定的毒性化學物質的管制，當然比關注化學物質還要高，其他的部分如果你還沒有辦法，我們認為相對來說，面對還有這麼多種、1萬1,000多種PFAS上的風險，我們要再依據現有的法規來做處理，所以彭啓明部長，我希望你能夠明確制定PFAS管理政策、完善PFAS定義和判定方式、指引執法人員審慎面對及審查新的PFAS申請登錄，避免PFAS在未經管制下進入市場。","所以我們在這裡很具體要求，根據環境部篩選認定毒性及關注化學物質作業原則第六條關注化學物質候選名單之認定原則的第二款「化學物質具廣泛終端消費者，或使用於民生消費品，可能危害人體健康或污染環境生態之虞者」，我們要求其他剩下的都要公告列管為關注化學物質。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員，委員的意見我會來處理，然後我們定期再跟委員回報。"],["林委員淑芬：茲事體大，事實上你們這個報告我並不滿意，第51頁提到，就112年的調查結果，全氟PFAS家族，就是全氟及多氟烷基物質已經完成第二輪調查，其實是調查飲用水水質，你們的飲用水水源水質調查報告就沒有把你們這些列管的東西放入例行性、常規性應檢測項目，你們都沒有列為應檢測項目，水源水質調查你們是委外研究，委外研究的人雞婆多做了一些，但你們沒有列為常規應固定監測、應列為檢測項目之一，你們沒有這麼做。而且我剛剛提到日本，人家都已經做到人體危害，所以人體健康調查也有了，世界各國都在就人體健康風險進行調查，而我們這個環境風險到底已經到多高了？你們的水質水源保護區調查算是相對上游的，一般下游的部分是如何？環境上的風險，已經有的影響還有危害有多大？在人體健康風險裡面，臺灣的調查報告，本土的數據研究在哪裡？我們通通落後，管制行為也落後，什麼都落後，因為時間有限，我今天沒有辦法就你們的書面報告再就教於你，但我希望部長，你是第一個正式面對這些事情，而且願意去制定管制政策、有效管理的第一個部長，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：可以，我儘量來做。"],["林委員淑芬：好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員的發言。接下來請蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","接下來請吳春城委員、吳春城委員、吳春城委員不在。","接下來請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳菁徽","王正旭","涂權吉","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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206.078, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 206.078, \"end\": 206.358, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"四\", \"start\": 206.358, \"end\": 207.119, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"P\", \"start\": 207.119, \"end\": 207.399, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"F\", \"start\": 207.399, \"end\": 207.82, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"O\", \"start\": 207.82, \"end\": 208.16, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"S\", \"start\": 208.16, \"end\": 208.841, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"P\", \"start\": 208.841, \"end\": 209.181, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"F\", \"start\": 209.181, \"end\": 209.401, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"O\", \"start\": 209.401, \"end\": 209.661, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"P\", \"start\": 209.661, \"end\": 210.042, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"F\", \"start\": 210.042, \"end\": 210.282, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"H\", \"start\": 210.282, \"end\": 211.283, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"X\", \"start\": 211.283, \"end\": 211.663, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"S\", \"start\": 211.663, \"end\": 211.984, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"P\", \"start\": 211.984, \"end\": 212.684, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"F\", \"start\": 212.684, \"end\": 213.785, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"H\", \"start\": 213.785, \"end\": 214.286, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"S\", \"start\": 214.286, \"end\": 214.466, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 214.466, \"end\": 214.986, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"P\", \"start\": 214.986, \"end\": 215.006, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"F\", \"start\": 215.006, \"end\": 215.447, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"N\", \"start\": 215.447, \"end\": 215.707, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"A\", \"start\": 215.707, \"end\": 215.727, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 217.208, \"end\": 238.98, \"text\": \"這是種他在雨水中的濃度都已經超過美國飲用水終生健康的這個建議值在丹麥他飲用水的限值在歐洲地表水的環境品質標準所以他在斯德哥摩的研究就是說他都超過了這些標準\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 217.208, \"end\": 217.868, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 217.868, \"end\": 218.149, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 218.149, \"end\": 218.349, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"雨\", \"start\": 218.349, \"end\": 218.529, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 218.529, \"end\": 218.689, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 218.689, \"end\": 218.849, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 218.849, \"end\": 219.209, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"濃\"}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 219.209, \"end\": 219.749, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 219.749, \"end\": 220.05, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 220.05, \"end\": 220.65, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"超\", \"start\": 220.65, \"end\": 221.25, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 221.25, \"end\": 221.931, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"飲\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 221.931, \"end\": 222.211, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 222.211, \"end\": 223.291, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"終\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 223.291, \"end\": 223.732, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"健\", \"start\": 223.732, \"end\": 224.052, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"康\", \"start\": 224.052, \"end\": 224.372, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 224.372, \"end\": 225.292, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 225.292, \"end\": 225.853, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"值\", \"start\": 225.853, \"end\": 226.733, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 226.733, \"end\": 227.073, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"丹\", \"start\": 227.073, \"end\": 227.934, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"麥\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 227.934, \"end\": 228.294, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"飲\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 228.294, \"end\": 228.594, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 228.594, \"end\": 228.754, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 228.754, \"end\": 228.954, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"限\", \"start\": 228.954, \"end\": 229.315, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"值\", \"start\": 229.315, \"end\": 229.975, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 229.975, \"end\": 230.235, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"歐\", \"start\": 230.235, \"end\": 230.555, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"洲\", \"start\": 230.555, \"end\": 230.895, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 230.895, \"end\": 231.216, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"表\", \"start\": 231.216, \"end\": 231.596, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 231.596, \"end\": 232.056, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 232.056, \"end\": 232.536, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"環\"}, {\"word\": \"境\", \"start\": 232.536, \"end\": 232.776, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"品\", \"start\": 232.776, \"end\": 233.557, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 233.557, \"end\": 234.197, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 234.197, \"end\": 234.357, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 234.357, \"end\": 234.457, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 234.457, \"end\": 234.757, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 234.757, \"end\": 235.538, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"斯\", \"start\": 235.538, \"end\": 235.658, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"德\", \"start\": 235.658, \"end\": 235.818, \"score\": 0.726}, {\"word\": \"哥\", \"start\": 235.818, \"end\": 235.998, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"摩\", \"start\": 235.998, \"end\": 236.138, \"score\": 0.733}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 236.138, \"end\": 236.218, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"研\", \"start\": 236.218, \"end\": 236.418, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"究\", \"start\": 236.418, \"end\": 236.598, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 236.598, \"end\": 236.779, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 236.779, \"end\": 237.379, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 237.379, \"end\": 237.659, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 237.659, \"end\": 237.859, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"超\", \"start\": 237.859, \"end\": 238.219, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 238.219, \"end\": 238.539, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 238.539, \"end\": 238.96, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 238.96, \"end\": 238.98, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 240.37, \"end\": 266.154, \"text\": \"那PFAS無所不在其實都被民眾吃進去我們都吃下去了2021年的一份一次性的包裝永久化學殘留的報告調查歐盟有6個國家他們做了一次性食品包裝或是餐具當中是不是含有PFAS的狀況的調查結果檢測42個項目\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 240.37, \"end\": 240.73, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"P\", \"start\": 240.73, \"end\": 240.99, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"F\", \"start\": 240.99, \"end\": 241.03, \"score\": 0.497}, {\"word\": \"A\", \"start\": 241.03, \"end\": 241.29, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"S\", \"start\": 241.29, \"end\": 241.49, \"score\": 0.763}, {\"word\": \"無\", \"start\": 241.49, \"end\": 241.83, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 241.83, \"end\": 242.17, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 242.17, \"end\": 242.37, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 242.37, \"end\": 243.19, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 243.19, \"end\": 243.371, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 243.371, \"end\": 243.651, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 243.651, \"end\": 243.791, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 243.791, \"end\": 244.251, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"眾\"}, {\"word\": \"吃\", \"start\": 244.251, \"end\": 244.731, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 244.731, \"end\": 245.091, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 245.091, \"end\": 245.291, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 245.291, \"end\": 245.491, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"吃\", \"start\": 245.491, \"end\": 245.671, \"score\": 0.782}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 245.671, \"end\": 245.911, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 245.911, \"end\": 246.151, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 246.151, \"end\": 247.791, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 247.791, \"end\": 248.071, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 248.071, \"end\": 248.211, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 248.211, \"end\": 248.391, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"份\", \"start\": 248.391, \"end\": 248.711, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 248.711, \"end\": 248.991, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 248.991, \"end\": 249.252, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 249.252, \"end\": 249.532, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 249.532, \"end\": 252.292, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 252.292, \"end\": 253.372, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"裝\"}, {\"word\": \"永\", \"start\": 253.372, \"end\": 253.752, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"久\", \"start\": 253.752, \"end\": 254.012, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 254.012, \"end\": 254.412, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 254.412, \"end\": 255.233, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"殘\"}, {\"word\": \"留\", \"start\": 255.233, \"end\": 255.433, \"score\": 0.724}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 255.433, \"end\": 255.813, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 255.813, \"end\": 256.333, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 256.333, \"end\": 257.073, \"score\": 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\"包\", \"start\": 261.454, \"end\": 262.514, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"裝\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 262.514, \"end\": 262.794, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 262.794, \"end\": 263.054, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"餐\", \"start\": 263.054, \"end\": 263.414, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"具\", \"start\": 263.414, \"end\": 263.934, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 263.934, \"end\": 264.574, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 264.574, \"end\": 264.734, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 264.734, \"end\": 264.834, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 264.834, \"end\": 265.014, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"含\", \"start\": 265.014, \"end\": 265.174, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 265.174, \"end\": 265.354, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"P\", \"start\": 265.354, \"end\": 265.594, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"F\", \"start\": 265.594, \"end\": 265.634, \"score\": 0.485}, {\"word\": \"A\", \"start\": 265.634, \"end\": 265.894, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"S\", \"start\": 265.894, \"end\": 265.994, \"score\": 0.718}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 265.994, \"end\": 266.014, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 266.014, \"end\": 266.074, \"score\": 0.699}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 266.074, \"end\": 266.114, \"score\": 0.492}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 266.114, \"end\": 266.134, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"測\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"項\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 266.134, \"end\": 266.154, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 270.356, \"end\": 278.352, \"text\": \"有多少的檢出你知道嗎?部長你知道嗎?猜猜看這叫你回答出來我覺得太困難了你猜一下\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 270.356, \"end\": 270.536, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 270.536, \"end\": 270.737, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"少\", 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{\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 275.286, \"end\": 276.087, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"叫\", \"start\": 276.087, \"end\": 276.268, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 276.268, \"end\": 276.428, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 276.428, \"end\": 276.588, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 276.588, \"end\": 276.769, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 276.769, \"end\": 276.889, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 276.889, \"end\": 277.029, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 277.029, \"end\": 277.21, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"太\", \"start\": 277.21, \"end\": 277.35, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"困\", \"start\": 277.35, \"end\": 277.63, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"難\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 277.63, \"end\": 277.891, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 277.891, \"end\": 278.031, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"猜\", \"start\": 278.031, \"end\": 278.212, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 278.212, \"end\": 278.332, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 278.332, \"end\": 278.352, \"score\": 0.995}]}, {\"start\": 279.924, \"end\": 299.934, \"text\": \"六個歐盟六個國家檢測四十二個有多少檢出你知道嗎?應該比例很高九成以上三十二三十二個這是2021年到了2023年另一份報告他收集了連台灣在內十七個國家一百一十九個食品包裝容器\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"六\", \"start\": 279.924, \"end\": 280.304, \"score\": 0.698}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"歐\", \"start\": 280.304, \"end\": 280.484, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"盟\", \"start\": 280.484, \"end\": 280.624, \"score\": 0.685}, {\"word\": \"六\", \"start\": 280.624, \"end\": 281.085, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 281.085, \"end\": 281.725, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"測\"}, {\"word\": \"四\", \"start\": 281.725, \"end\": 281.845, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"十\", \"start\": 281.845, \"end\": 281.985, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 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\"中央主管機關評估新化學物質之特性有符合毒性或關注化學物質定義之餘者都應該在核准登錄時付予付款要求提供化學物質危害資訊更新登錄相關報告資料或定期申報運作情形必要時要禁止或限制其運作我知道你們這個已經對今年公佈的這個PFHX\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 962.671, \"end\": 962.811, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"央\", \"start\": 962.811, \"end\": 962.991, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 962.991, \"end\": 963.071, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 963.071, \"end\": 963.932, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"評\"}, {\"word\": \"估\", \"start\": 963.932, \"end\": 964.152, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 964.152, \"end\": 964.352, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 964.352, \"end\": 964.512, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 964.512, \"end\": 964.653, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"物\", \"start\": 964.653, \"end\": 965.013, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 965.013, \"end\": 965.153, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"特\", \"start\": 965.153, \"end\": 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00:00:09,555\n主席,是不是請我們彭部長。請彭部長。林委員好。部長,今天一個早上的這個質詢令我寡慕相看,因為所有的業務都是你本人親自回答。看起來很認真,而且也相當的有一定程度的專業。我不認為你說你剛來,看起來好像很賢手。\n\n2\n00:00:30,189 --> 00:00:48,922\n不過我想要跟你們大家就這個氣候變遷等等的探費等等的討論但我今天要跟你談一點不一樣的就是說上個月食藥署在公布這個邊境查驗不合格的產品其中有一項是頂呱呱從中國進口的這個漢堡盒結果該產品檢測檢驗的畜酸測試結果榮出達到1132的ppm比標準足足多了37倍\n\n3\n00:00:59,629 --> 00:01:00,410\n你有看到這個新聞嗎?\n\n4\n00:01:00,410 --> 00:01:12,123\n有有不過我今天要說的是比這個還要更嚴重的我要說的是PFAS這個化學物質家族台灣源頭的管制遠遠落後於國際的管制\n\n5\n00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:36,668\n那這個問題事實上你們今天的業務報告裡面也講了一些那我先跟你就這個議題再深入的討論我們這麼的落後於國際的規範甚至連食品包材都沒有規範許多消費性的民生商品都可以發現有化學物質家族這個化學物質家族\n\n6\n00:01:37,208 --> 00:02:00,833\n但是整個國家不管你這個環境部門還是衛生部門全部都沒有積極的在管制讓我們的人民在日常生活當中輕易的都可以接觸到這個對環境、對人體健康影響極大的PFAS的化學物質更何況還是食品包裝的包材還有大家天天在吃的這個一次性的使用的這個紙袋等等\n\n7\n00:02:01,933 --> 00:02:17,081\n大家都知道PFOS是化學家族的一個大家族,它其中最知名的物質就是PFOs,還有等等啦,它的家族的產品,它的化學物質有超過一萬兩千多種。\n\n8\n00:02:18,171 --> 00:02:18,191\n拜訪議員\n\n9\n00:02:35,473 --> 00:02:48,686\n包括不沾鍋包括防油的紙袋紙盒那我們穿身體上穿帶也很多防水衣褲那消防器材等等都含有PFAS的這個化學物質\n\n10\n00:02:50,948 --> 00:03:19,513\n那這個化學物質它帶有侵水機所以它在自然環境中不但幾乎不可能消失而且會跟著水在地球到處滲透它進入我們的土壤到我們的食物鏈最後都到人體裡面來這個不容易分解的特性讓PFAS在環境中的濃度對生物的危害這個累積會不斷的累積而放大\n\n11\n00:03:20,333 --> 00:03:35,727\n那根據瑞典斯的哥爾摩大學一篇研究光是PFAS的四個家族裡面的這四種PFOS、PFO、PFHXS、PFHS、還有PFNA\n\n12\n00:03:37,208 --> 00:03:58,980\n這是種他在雨水中的濃度都已經超過美國飲用水終生健康的這個建議值在丹麥他飲用水的限值在歐洲地表水的環境品質標準所以他在斯德哥摩的研究就是說他都超過了這些標準\n\n13\n00:04:00,370 --> 00:04:26,154\n那PFAS無所不在其實都被民眾吃進去我們都吃下去了2021年的一份一次性的包裝永久化學殘留的報告調查歐盟有6個國家他們做了一次性食品包裝或是餐具當中是不是含有PFAS的狀況的調查結果檢測42個項目\n\n14\n00:04:30,356 --> 00:04:38,352\n有多少的檢出你知道嗎?部長你知道嗎?猜猜看這叫你回答出來我覺得太困難了你猜一下\n\n15\n00:04:39,924 --> 00:04:59,934\n六個歐盟六個國家檢測四十二個有多少檢出你知道嗎?應該比例很高九成以上三十二三十二個這是2021年到了2023年另一份報告他收集了連台灣在內十七個國家一百一十九個食品包裝容器\n\n16\n00:05:00,754 --> 00:05:02,536\n結果超過一半有64個樣本檢出含有PFAS所以你知道臺灣食品包裝一次性的包裝包括我們可能吃水煎包或者吃這個我忘了叫什麼名字等等\n\n17\n00:05:23,353 --> 00:05:23,853\n那我們就要來問了\n\n18\n00:05:53,395 --> 00:05:54,180\n批發對人體的危害風險有多大?\n\n19\n00:05:57,008 --> 00:06:23,868\n很大報告委員我最近其實特別看了幾個資料就是說我們的有幾個水庫水質檢測那個PFAS真的很高我有看到你的報告裡面有寫但你先聽我說我們從美國疾病管制中心他在2011到2012年這個已經是十幾年前了他們就收集的資料報告顯示97%的美國人的血液當中含有PFAS\n\n20\n00:06:24,568 --> 00:06:28,449\n歐洲有一個人類生物監測計畫他從2014監測到2021針對歐洲9個國家12歲到18歲的青年人總共有1957個血清樣本他們檢測12種PFAS物質的含量\n\n21\n00:06:46,897 --> 00:07:03,499\n結果有14.3%的樣本他的血液中PFAS的濃度超過歐洲食品安全局建議的安全標準12到18歲多年輕啊\n\n22\n00:07:19,172 --> 00:07:43,566\n2023年去年日本日本研究調查東京他只做多摩多摩地區650位居民的協議中的PFOS濃度發現PFOS和PFO的平均濃度是全國平均值的2.4倍所以東京都聽就馬上停用他們多摩地區內\n\n23\n00:07:45,848 --> 00:08:05,158\n40個水井因為在這些水源當中檢測出這個PFOS物質那PFOS大家我們都說這個風險在哪裡這兩大化學物質裡面最有名的PFOS裡面最有名的就是PFOA和PFOS就是PFOA和PFOS我剛剛講的都是PFOA和PFOS\n\n24\n00:08:07,099 --> 00:08:33,800\n她已有足夠的研究證明她跟部分疾病是高度相關包括甲狀腺疾病、腎臟癌、肝損傷、血脂的濃度、心血管疾病、睪丸癌、乳癌降低女性生育率還有最重要的接觸胎兒後對胎兒有很多短中長期的影響那我的意思是說台灣做什麼\n\n25\n00:08:35,962 --> 00:08:52,007\n臺灣在下保定我希望你是第一個高度而關心而且積極管制的部長過去的臺灣不管是衛生單位不管是環境部門都沒有在下都沒有在\n\n26\n00:08:55,178 --> 00:09:20,396\n報告委員這個部分因為我讀了報告我也嚇一跳就是這幾天我再跟你報告一下因為你就看這個水質報告而已那還沒有列管那只是增加一個檢測而已我現在講說PFAS在台灣我們的管制不足遠遠落後於國際公約而且我剛剛講PFAS所造成的危害逐漸被各國這個都所共識\n\n27\n00:09:21,357 --> 00:09:45,772\n所有的國家都已經紛紛的領先施德克爾摩公約的管制喔施德克爾摩公約它的列管已經是國際上管制的最低標準很多國家的管制標準都高於施德克爾摩公約而我們我們連施德克爾摩公約都還遠遠落後於公約之後\n\n28\n00:09:50,307 --> 00:09:53,991\n施德格爾摩公約列管了PFAS家族下的PFOS、PFO還有PFHXS\n\n29\n00:10:11,667 --> 00:10:34,350\n那最早被列管的PFORCE家族是以附有CAS的號碼的方式列出8種PFORCE家族我國只有跟進列管幾種你知道嗎這是最有名的而且危害相對風險最高的8種我們列管了幾種你知道嗎業務單位說我覺得這個叫部長回答太難了\n\n30\n00:10:35,305 --> 00:10:44,312\n跟委員報告,原來是4種,那我們在4月27再公告了147種你現在現在講講你有聽我在講嗎啦我在問你的是PFOS8種列管的3種你講的4種是加了PFOA裡面1種\n\n31\n00:11:00,612 --> 00:11:14,625\n你只列管了一種可是人家光是PFOA家族有364種你只列管了一種PFOA是八種你只列管了三種PFOA364種你只列管了一種\n\n32\n00:11:17,648 --> 00:11:25,393\n你講的100加起來100多是今年斯德哥爾摩公約在列管PFHXS化學物質147種這147種你們因為他一次列管公佈所有清單我們才跟進把PFHXS列管全部\n\n33\n00:11:44,827 --> 00:12:06,933\n所以你是今年才加了這一個物質列管的147種最嚴重的大家最常用的PIVOS你只列管4種可是全部有364加8種各位委員報告這部分我們正在研議當中也會的吧我有看到啦我有看到今天的報告啦現在我要再請部長\n\n34\n00:12:08,737 --> 00:12:27,693\n就是說全部PFAS這一些化學物質大概有12000多種根據我剛剛的報告就是說公約、明定三大要列管的化學物質這個就是PFOS、PFH、XS\n\n35\n00:12:31,355 --> 00:12:55,082\n這三大是公約明確它是最低標準就是說這三種一定要管有519種加起來519種一定要列管可是我們加起來就只有151種遠遠落後於國際最低標準的公約標準而公約是全世界各國管制裡面的最低標準我們看不到人家的車尾燈\n\n36\n00:12:56,023 --> 00:12:56,966\n我們光是這三種化學物質還少了368種可不可以一併馬上列管?\n\n37\n00:13:03,513 --> 00:13:28,782\n報告委員,這個其實這個STOCKHOLM的這個公約是建議出來但是我們也觀察其他的國家也有訂對,那我們會持續的保持關注所以委員的建議不是關注啦,要列管啦報告委員,能不能讓我補充一下我們從這個禮拜一開始應該是昨天我們邀請了瑞典的三位專家他就是起草那個好啦沒關係啦,你跟我講你們什麼時候要列管啦\n\n38\n00:13:32,145 --> 00:13:50,065\n還沒有列入管理的一併列管啊。我們會按照這個程序來給他做延伸。好好好,我再去救救部長。保證,這是你可能比較沒有關注到的,但我再問你。跟上司的各模公約是最低標準,但是我們還要,不要忘了我們有自己的法律啊。\n\n39\n00:14:07,560 --> 00:14:25,112\nPFAS這個大家族那根據獨管法的定義只有建置於既有化學物質清澈的化學物質才叫做既有化學物質所以一萬兩千多個PFAS的化學物質我們既有化學物質有821個\n\n40\n00:14:27,293 --> 00:14:46,584\n所以對我國而言只有這821種的PFAS才叫做既有的PFAS那其他11000多種沒有列入既有化學物質清澈的PFAS都是新的PFAS新的化學物質那根據毒性化學物質管理法第30條\n\n41\n00:14:47,785 --> 00:14:47,805\n拜訪議員\n\n42\n00:15:06,972 --> 00:15:34,558\nPFOA在人體中半衰期要3.5年可是我們天天在吃啊每天吃啊你這一天吃的要3.5年明天吃的又要3.5年其實你永遠都代謝不完永遠都存在所以它在PFAS在環境當中的半衰期則相當長比如說我剛剛講的PFOA在人體內要3.5年但是它在水體中猜猜看要多少年才會衰減一半猜猜看啦\n\n43\n00:15:36,806 --> 00:16:00,951\n我知道這有點難了水體中要9292年才會衰減一半所以對生物體的危害有所累積對人體環境影響大這樣的特性和風險相當相當的大所以我們化學署在核准登錄的時候都應該按照獨管法第31條\n\n44\n00:16:02,671 --> 00:16:26,789\n中央主管機關評估新化學物質之特性有符合毒性或關注化學物質定義之餘者都應該在核准登錄時付予付款要求提供化學物質危害資訊更新登錄相關報告資料或定期申報運作情形必要時要禁止或限制其運作我知道你們這個已經對今年公佈的這個PFHX\n\n45\n00:16:31,673 --> 00:16:54,886\n一百四十七種你們已經登錄為第一類的毒性化學物質那其他相對確定的毒性化學物質管制當然比關注化學物質還要高那其他如果你還沒有辦法我們認為說相對的面對還有這麼多種一萬一千多種的批法史上的風險我們要再依據現有的法規\n\n46\n00:16:56,227 --> 00:17:15,708\n我希望彭啟明部長你是能夠明確的制定PFAS的管理政策完善PFAS的定義和這個判定方式來指引執法人員審慎面對舉審查新的PFAS申請登錄避免PFAS在未經管制下進入市場所以\n\n47\n00:17:17,110 --> 00:17:32,245\n我們在這裡很具體的要求根據這個環境部篩選認定毒性及關注化學物質的作業原則的第6條的關注化學物質篩選的認定原則的第二款\n\n48\n00:17:33,286 --> 00:17:50,837\n化學物質具廣泛終端消費者或使用於民生消費品可能危害人體健康或污染環境生態之餘者我們要求其他剩下的都要公告列管委關注化學物質\n\n49\n00:17:52,196 --> 00:18:02,605\n好,謝謝委員,委員的意見我會來處理,然後我們定期再跟委員回報知事提到,你知道你們事實上你們你們這個報告我是不滿意,第51頁你們說從112年的調查結果,全服\n\n50\n00:18:08,109 --> 00:18:27,874\nPFAS家族就潛伏碗機物質已經完成第二輪調查其實你們是調查飲用水水質調查裡面而你們這個調查來講沒有列管你們飲用水水質調查報告就沒有把你們列管的這一些東西要放入例行性常規性應檢測項目你們列為應檢測項目都沒有\n\n51\n00:18:34,918 --> 00:18:55,492\n水源水質類,你們是委託委外研究委外研究人一家不二家做一家但你們沒有列為常規應固定監測應列為這個檢測項目之一,你們沒有而且我剛剛講日本人人家做到人體危害所以人體健康調查也有了\n\n52\n00:18:56,472 --> 00:19:13,391\n世界各國都在救人體健康風險我們到底這個環境風險的已經到多高了你們在水質水源保護區算是相對上游的那一般下游如何環境上的風險他已經影響危害有多大\n\n53\n00:19:14,051 --> 00:19:41,309\n在人體的健康風險裡面臺灣的調查報告本土的數據研究在哪裡我們通通落後管制行為也落後什麼都落後我今天就還沒有辦法因為時間有限沒有辦法就你們說明報告再就教於你啦但是我希望部長你是第一個正式面對這些事情而且願意去制定管制的這個政策有效的管理的第一個部長可以嗎\n\n54\n00:19:41,789 --> 00:19:42,710\n謝謝林淑芬委員的發言\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6693\t9555\t主席,是不是請我們彭部長。請彭部長。林委員好。部長,今天一個早上的這個質詢令我寡慕相看,因為所有的業務都是你本人親自回答。看起來很認真,而且也相當的有一定程度的專業。我不認為你說你剛來,看起來好像很賢手。\n30189\t48922\t不過我想要跟你們大家就這個氣候變遷等等的探費等等的討論但我今天要跟你談一點不一樣的就是說上個月食藥署在公布這個邊境查驗不合格的產品其中有一項是頂呱呱從中國進口的這個漢堡盒結果該產品檢測檢驗的畜酸測試結果榮出達到1132的ppm比標準足足多了37倍\n59629\t60410\t你有看到這個新聞嗎?\n60410\t72123\t有 有不過我今天要說的是比這個還要更嚴重的我要說的是PFAS這個化學物質家族台灣源頭的管制遠遠落後於國際的管制\n75680\t96668\t那這個問題事實上你們今天的業務報告裡面也講了一些那我先跟你就這個議題再深入的討論我們這麼的落後於國際的規範甚至連食品包材都沒有規範許多消費性的民生商品都可以發現有化學物質家族這個化學物質家族\n97208\t120833\t但是整個國家不管你這個環境部門還是衛生部門全部都沒有積極的在管制讓我們的人民在日常生活當中輕易的都可以接觸到這個對環境、對人體健康影響極大的PFAS的化學物質更何況還是食品包裝的包材還有大家天天在吃的這個一次性的使用的這個紙袋等等\n121933\t137081\t大家都知道PFOS是化學家族的一個大家族,它其中最知名的物質就是PFOs,還有等等啦,它的家族的產品,它的化學物質有超過一萬兩千多種。\n138171\t138191\t拜訪議員\n155473\t168686\t包括不沾鍋包括防油的紙袋紙盒那我們穿身體上穿帶也很多防水衣褲那消防器材等等都含有PFAS的這個化學物質\n170948\t199513\t那這個化學物質它帶有侵水機所以它在自然環境中不但幾乎不可能消失而且會跟著水在地球到處滲透它進入我們的土壤到我們的食物鏈最後都到人體裡面來這個不容易分解的特性讓PFAS在環境中的濃度對生物的危害這個累積會不斷的累積而放大\n200333\t215727\t那根據瑞典斯的哥爾摩大學一篇研究光是PFAS的四個家族裡面的這四種PFOS、PFO、PFHXS、PFHS、還有PFNA\n217208\t238980\t這是種他在雨水中的濃度都已經超過美國飲用水終生健康的這個建議值在丹麥他飲用水的限值在歐洲地表水的環境品質標準所以他在斯德哥摩的研究就是說他都超過了這些標準\n240370\t266154\t那PFAS無所不在其實都被民眾吃進去我們都吃下去了2021年的一份一次性的包裝永久化學殘留的報告調查歐盟有6個國家他們做了一次性食品包裝或是餐具當中是不是含有PFAS的狀況的調查結果檢測42個項目\n270356\t278352\t有多少的檢出你知道嗎?部長你知道嗎?猜猜看這叫你回答出來我覺得太困難了你猜一下\n279924\t299934\t六個歐盟六個國家檢測四十二個有多少檢出你知道嗎?應該比例很高九成以上三十二三十二個這是2021年到了2023年另一份報告他收集了連台灣在內十七個國家一百一十九個食品包裝容器\n300754\t302536\t結果超過一半有64個樣本檢出含有PFAS所以你知道臺灣食品包裝一次性的包裝包括我們可能吃水煎包或者吃這個我忘了叫什麼名字等等\n323353\t323853\t那我們就要來問了\n353395\t354180\t批發對人體的危害風險有多大?\n357008\t383868\t很大報告委員我最近其實特別看了幾個資料就是說我們的有幾個水庫水質檢測那個PFAS真的很高我有看到你的報告裡面有寫但你先聽我說我們從美國疾病管制中心他在2011到2012年這個已經是十幾年前了他們就收集的資料報告顯示97%的美國人的血液當中含有PFAS\n384568\t388449\t歐洲有一個人類生物監測計畫他從2014監測到2021針對歐洲9個國家12歲到18歲的青年人總共有1957個血清樣本他們檢測12種PFAS物質的含量\n406897\t423499\t結果有14.3%的樣本他的血液中PFAS的濃度超過歐洲食品安全局建議的安全標準12到18歲多年輕啊\n424753\t437346\t﹗\n439172\t463566\t2023年去年日本日本研究調查東京他只做多摩多摩地區650位居民的協議中的PFOS濃度發現PFOS和PFO的平均濃度是全國平均值的2.4倍所以東京都聽就馬上停用他們多摩地區內\n465848\t485158\t40個水井因為在這些水源當中檢測出這個PFOS物質那PFOS大家我們都說這個風險在哪裡這兩大化學物質裡面最有名的PFOS裡面最有名的就是PFOA和PFOS就是PFOA和PFOS我剛剛講的都是PFOA和PFOS\n487099\t513800\t她已有足夠的研究證明她跟部分疾病是高度相關包括甲狀腺疾病、腎臟癌、肝損傷、血脂的濃度、心血管疾病、睪丸癌、乳癌降低女性生育率還有最重要的接觸胎兒後對胎兒有很多短中長期的影響那我的意思是說台灣做什麼\n515962\t532007\t臺灣在下保定我希望你是第一個高度而關心而且積極管制的部長過去的臺灣不管是衛生單位不管是環境部門都沒有在下都沒有在\n535178\t560396\t報告委員這個部分因為我讀了報告我也嚇一跳就是這幾天我再跟你報告一下因為你就看這個水質報告而已那還沒有列管那只是增加一個檢測而已我現在講說PFAS在台灣我們的管制不足遠遠落後於國際公約而且我剛剛講PFAS所造成的危害逐漸被各國這個都所共識\n561357\t585772\t所有的國家都已經紛紛的領先施德克爾摩公約的管制喔施德克爾摩公約它的列管已經是國際上管制的最低標準很多國家的管制標準都高於施德克爾摩公約而我們我們連施德克爾摩公約都還遠遠落後於公約之後\n590307\t593991\t施德格爾摩公約列管了PFAS家族下的PFOS、PFO還有PFHXS\n611667\t634350\t那最早被列管的PFORCE家族是以附有CAS的號碼的方式列出8種PFORCE家族我國只有跟進列管幾種你知道嗎這是最有名的而且危害相對風險最高的8種我們列管了幾種你知道嗎業務單位說我覺得這個叫部長回答太難了\n635305\t644312\t跟委員報告,原來是4種,那我們在4月27再公告了147種你現在現在講講你有聽我在講嗎啦我在問你的是PFOS8種列管的3種你講的4種是加了PFOA裡面1種\n660612\t674625\t你只列管了一種可是人家光是PFOA家族有364種你只列管了一種PFOA是八種你只列管了三種PFOA364種你只列管了一種\n677648\t685393\t你講的100加起來100多是今年斯德哥爾摩公約在列管PFHXS化學物質147種這147種你們因為他一次列管公佈所有清單我們才跟進把PFHXS列管全部\n704827\t726933\t所以你是今年才加了這一個物質列管的147種最嚴重的大家最常用的PIVOS你只列管4種可是全部有364加8種各位委員報告這部分我們正在研議當中也會的吧我有看到啦我有看到今天的報告啦現在我要再請部長\n728737\t747693\t就是說全部PFAS這一些化學物質大概有12000多種根據我剛剛的報告就是說公約、明定三大要列管的化學物質這個就是PFOS、PFH、XS\n751355\t775082\t這三大是公約明確它是最低標準就是說這三種一定要管有519種加起來519種一定要列管可是我們加起來就只有151種遠遠落後於國際最低標準的公約標準而公約是全世界各國管制裡面的最低標準我們看不到人家的車尾燈\n776023\t776966\t我們光是這三種化學物質還少了368種可不可以一併馬上列管?\n783513\t808782\t報告委員,這個其實這個STOCKHOLM的這個公約是建議出來但是我們也觀察其他的國家也有訂對,那我們會持續的保持關注所以委員的建議不是關注啦,要列管啦報告委員,能不能讓我補充一下我們從這個禮拜一開始應該是昨天我們邀請了瑞典的三位專家他就是起草那個好啦沒關係啦,你跟我講你們什麼時候要列管啦\n812145\t830065\t還沒有列入管理的一併列管啊。我們會按照這個程序來給他做延伸。好好好,我再去救救部長。保證,這是你可能比較沒有關注到的,但我再問你。跟上司的各模公約是最低標準,但是我們還要,不要忘了我們有自己的法律啊。\n830606\t847398\t﹗\n847560\t865112\tPFAS這個大家族那根據獨管法的定義只有建置於既有化學物質清澈的化學物質才叫做既有化學物質所以一萬兩千多個PFAS的化學物質我們既有化學物質有821個\n867293\t886584\t所以對我國而言只有這821種的PFAS才叫做既有的PFAS那其他11000多種沒有列入既有化學物質清澈的PFAS都是新的PFAS新的化學物質那根據毒性化學物質管理法第30條\n887785\t887805\t拜訪議員\n906972\t934558\tPFOA在人體中半衰期要3.5年可是我們天天在吃啊每天吃啊你這一天吃的要3.5年明天吃的又要3.5年其實你永遠都代謝不完永遠都存在所以它在PFAS在環境當中的半衰期則相當長比如說我剛剛講的PFOA在人體內要3.5年但是它在水體中猜猜看要多少年才會衰減一半猜猜看啦\n936806\t960951\t我知道這有點難了水體中要9292年才會衰減一半所以對生物體的危害有所累積對人體環境影響大這樣的特性和風險相當相當的大所以我們化學署在核准登錄的時候都應該按照獨管法第31條\n962671\t986789\t中央主管機關評估新化學物質之特性有符合毒性或關注化學物質定義之餘者都應該在核准登錄時付予付款要求提供化學物質危害資訊更新登錄相關報告資料或定期申報運作情形必要時要禁止或限制其運作我知道你們這個已經對今年公佈的這個PFHX\n991673\t1014886\t一百四十七種你們已經登錄為第一類的毒性化學物質那其他相對確定的毒性化學物質管制當然比關注化學物質還要高那其他如果你還沒有辦法我們認為說相對的面對還有這麼多種一萬一千多種的批法史上的風險我們要再依據現有的法規\n1016227\t1035708\t我希望彭啟明部長你是能夠明確的制定PFAS的管理政策完善PFAS的定義和這個判定方式來指引執法人員審慎面對舉審查新的PFAS申請登錄避免PFAS在未經管制下進入市場所以\n1037110\t1052245\t我們在這裡很具體的要求根據這個環境部篩選認定毒性及關注化學物質的作業原則的第6條的關注化學物質篩選的認定原則的第二款\n1053286\t1070837\t化學物質具廣泛終端消費者或使用於民生消費品可能危害人體健康或污染環境生態之餘者我們要求其他剩下的都要公告列管委關注化學物質\n1072196\t1082605\t好,謝謝委員,委員的意見我會來處理,然後我們定期再跟委員回報知事提到,你知道你們事實上你們你們這個報告我是不滿意,第51頁你們說從112年的調查結果,全服\n1088109\t1107874\tPFAS家族就潛伏碗機物質已經完成第二輪調查其實你們是調查飲用水水質調查裡面而你們這個調查來講沒有列管你們飲用水水質調查報告就沒有把你們列管的這一些東西要放入例行性常規性應檢測項目你們列為應檢測項目都沒有\n1114918\t1135492\t水源水質類,你們是委託委外研究委外研究人一家不二家做一家但你們沒有列為常規應固定監測應列為這個檢測項目之一,你們沒有而且我剛剛講日本人人家做到人體危害所以人體健康調查也有了\n1136472\t1153391\t世界各國都在救人體健康風險我們到底這個環境風險的已經到多高了你們在水質水源保護區算是相對上游的那一般下游如何環境上的風險他已經影響危害有多大\n1154051\t1181309\t在人體的健康風險裡面臺灣的調查報告本土的數據研究在哪裡我們通通落後管制行為也落後什麼都落後我今天就還沒有辦法因為時間有限沒有辦法就你們說明報告再就教於你啦但是我希望部長你是第一個正式面對這些事情而且願意去制定管制的這個政策有效的管理的第一個部長可以嗎\n1181789\t1182710\t謝謝林淑芬委員的發言\n","txt":"主席,是不是請我們彭部長。請彭部長。林委員好。部長,今天一個早上的這個質詢令我寡慕相看,因為所有的業務都是你本人親自回答。看起來很認真,而且也相當的有一定程度的專業。我不認為你說你剛來,看起來好像很賢手。\n不過我想要跟你們大家就這個氣候變遷等等的探費等等的討論但我今天要跟你談一點不一樣的就是說上個月食藥署在公布這個邊境查驗不合格的產品其中有一項是頂呱呱從中國進口的這個漢堡盒結果該產品檢測檢驗的畜酸測試結果榮出達到1132的ppm比標準足足多了37倍\n你有看到這個新聞嗎?\n有 有不過我今天要說的是比這個還要更嚴重的我要說的是PFAS這個化學物質家族台灣源頭的管制遠遠落後於國際的管制\n那這個問題事實上你們今天的業務報告裡面也講了一些那我先跟你就這個議題再深入的討論我們這麼的落後於國際的規範甚至連食品包材都沒有規範許多消費性的民生商品都可以發現有化學物質家族這個化學物質家族\n但是整個國家不管你這個環境部門還是衛生部門全部都沒有積極的在管制讓我們的人民在日常生活當中輕易的都可以接觸到這個對環境、對人體健康影響極大的PFAS的化學物質更何況還是食品包裝的包材還有大家天天在吃的這個一次性的使用的這個紙袋等等\n大家都知道PFOS是化學家族的一個大家族,它其中最知名的物質就是PFOs,還有等等啦,它的家族的產品,它的化學物質有超過一萬兩千多種。\n拜訪議員\n包括不沾鍋包括防油的紙袋紙盒那我們穿身體上穿帶也很多防水衣褲那消防器材等等都含有PFAS的這個化學物質\n那這個化學物質它帶有侵水機所以它在自然環境中不但幾乎不可能消失而且會跟著水在地球到處滲透它進入我們的土壤到我們的食物鏈最後都到人體裡面來這個不容易分解的特性讓PFAS在環境中的濃度對生物的危害這個累積會不斷的累積而放大\n那根據瑞典斯的哥爾摩大學一篇研究光是PFAS的四個家族裡面的這四種PFOS、PFO、PFHXS、PFHS、還有PFNA\n這是種他在雨水中的濃度都已經超過美國飲用水終生健康的這個建議值在丹麥他飲用水的限值在歐洲地表水的環境品質標準所以他在斯德哥摩的研究就是說他都超過了這些標準\n那PFAS無所不在其實都被民眾吃進去我們都吃下去了2021年的一份一次性的包裝永久化學殘留的報告調查歐盟有6個國家他們做了一次性食品包裝或是餐具當中是不是含有PFAS的狀況的調查結果檢測42個項目\n有多少的檢出你知道嗎?部長你知道嗎?猜猜看這叫你回答出來我覺得太困難了你猜一下\n六個歐盟六個國家檢測四十二個有多少檢出你知道嗎?應該比例很高九成以上三十二三十二個這是2021年到了2023年另一份報告他收集了連台灣在內十七個國家一百一十九個食品包裝容器\n結果超過一半有64個樣本檢出含有PFAS所以你知道臺灣食品包裝一次性的包裝包括我們可能吃水煎包或者吃這個我忘了叫什麼名字等等\n那我們就要來問了\n批發對人體的危害風險有多大?\n很大報告委員我最近其實特別看了幾個資料就是說我們的有幾個水庫水質檢測那個PFAS真的很高我有看到你的報告裡面有寫但你先聽我說我們從美國疾病管制中心他在2011到2012年這個已經是十幾年前了他們就收集的資料報告顯示97%的美國人的血液當中含有PFAS\n歐洲有一個人類生物監測計畫他從2014監測到2021針對歐洲9個國家12歲到18歲的青年人總共有1957個血清樣本他們檢測12種PFAS物質的含量\n結果有14.3%的樣本他的血液中PFAS的濃度超過歐洲食品安全局建議的安全標準12到18歲多年輕啊\n﹗\n2023年去年日本日本研究調查東京他只做多摩多摩地區650位居民的協議中的PFOS濃度發現PFOS和PFO的平均濃度是全國平均值的2.4倍所以東京都聽就馬上停用他們多摩地區內\n40個水井因為在這些水源當中檢測出這個PFOS物質那PFOS大家我們都說這個風險在哪裡這兩大化學物質裡面最有名的PFOS裡面最有名的就是PFOA和PFOS就是PFOA和PFOS我剛剛講的都是PFOA和PFOS\n她已有足夠的研究證明她跟部分疾病是高度相關包括甲狀腺疾病、腎臟癌、肝損傷、血脂的濃度、心血管疾病、睪丸癌、乳癌降低女性生育率還有最重要的接觸胎兒後對胎兒有很多短中長期的影響那我的意思是說台灣做什麼\n臺灣在下保定我希望你是第一個高度而關心而且積極管制的部長過去的臺灣不管是衛生單位不管是環境部門都沒有在下都沒有在\n報告委員這個部分因為我讀了報告我也嚇一跳就是這幾天我再跟你報告一下因為你就看這個水質報告而已那還沒有列管那只是增加一個檢測而已我現在講說PFAS在台灣我們的管制不足遠遠落後於國際公約而且我剛剛講PFAS所造成的危害逐漸被各國這個都所共識\n所有的國家都已經紛紛的領先施德克爾摩公約的管制喔施德克爾摩公約它的列管已經是國際上管制的最低標準很多國家的管制標準都高於施德克爾摩公約而我們我們連施德克爾摩公約都還遠遠落後於公約之後\n施德格爾摩公約列管了PFAS家族下的PFOS、PFO還有PFHXS\n那最早被列管的PFORCE家族是以附有CAS的號碼的方式列出8種PFORCE家族我國只有跟進列管幾種你知道嗎這是最有名的而且危害相對風險最高的8種我們列管了幾種你知道嗎業務單位說我覺得這個叫部長回答太難了\n跟委員報告,原來是4種,那我們在4月27再公告了147種你現在現在講講你有聽我在講嗎啦我在問你的是PFOS8種列管的3種你講的4種是加了PFOA裡面1種\n你只列管了一種可是人家光是PFOA家族有364種你只列管了一種PFOA是八種你只列管了三種PFOA364種你只列管了一種\n你講的100加起來100多是今年斯德哥爾摩公約在列管PFHXS化學物質147種這147種你們因為他一次列管公佈所有清單我們才跟進把PFHXS列管全部\n所以你是今年才加了這一個物質列管的147種最嚴重的大家最常用的PIVOS你只列管4種可是全部有364加8種各位委員報告這部分我們正在研議當中也會的吧我有看到啦我有看到今天的報告啦現在我要再請部長\n就是說全部PFAS這一些化學物質大概有12000多種根據我剛剛的報告就是說公約、明定三大要列管的化學物質這個就是PFOS、PFH、XS\n這三大是公約明確它是最低標準就是說這三種一定要管有519種加起來519種一定要列管可是我們加起來就只有151種遠遠落後於國際最低標準的公約標準而公約是全世界各國管制裡面的最低標準我們看不到人家的車尾燈\n我們光是這三種化學物質還少了368種可不可以一併馬上列管?\n報告委員,這個其實這個STOCKHOLM的這個公約是建議出來但是我們也觀察其他的國家也有訂對,那我們會持續的保持關注所以委員的建議不是關注啦,要列管啦報告委員,能不能讓我補充一下我們從這個禮拜一開始應該是昨天我們邀請了瑞典的三位專家他就是起草那個好啦沒關係啦,你跟我講你們什麼時候要列管啦\n還沒有列入管理的一併列管啊。我們會按照這個程序來給他做延伸。好好好,我再去救救部長。保證,這是你可能比較沒有關注到的,但我再問你。跟上司的各模公約是最低標準,但是我們還要,不要忘了我們有自己的法律啊。\n﹗\nPFAS這個大家族那根據獨管法的定義只有建置於既有化學物質清澈的化學物質才叫做既有化學物質所以一萬兩千多個PFAS的化學物質我們既有化學物質有821個\n所以對我國而言只有這821種的PFAS才叫做既有的PFAS那其他11000多種沒有列入既有化學物質清澈的PFAS都是新的PFAS新的化學物質那根據毒性化學物質管理法第30條\n拜訪議員\nPFOA在人體中半衰期要3.5年可是我們天天在吃啊每天吃啊你這一天吃的要3.5年明天吃的又要3.5年其實你永遠都代謝不完永遠都存在所以它在PFAS在環境當中的半衰期則相當長比如說我剛剛講的PFOA在人體內要3.5年但是它在水體中猜猜看要多少年才會衰減一半猜猜看啦\n我知道這有點難了水體中要9292年才會衰減一半所以對生物體的危害有所累積對人體環境影響大這樣的特性和風險相當相當的大所以我們化學署在核准登錄的時候都應該按照獨管法第31條\n中央主管機關評估新化學物質之特性有符合毒性或關注化學物質定義之餘者都應該在核准登錄時付予付款要求提供化學物質危害資訊更新登錄相關報告資料或定期申報運作情形必要時要禁止或限制其運作我知道你們這個已經對今年公佈的這個PFHX\n一百四十七種你們已經登錄為第一類的毒性化學物質那其他相對確定的毒性化學物質管制當然比關注化學物質還要高那其他如果你還沒有辦法我們認為說相對的面對還有這麼多種一萬一千多種的批法史上的風險我們要再依據現有的法規\n我希望彭啟明部長你是能夠明確的制定PFAS的管理政策完善PFAS的定義和這個判定方式來指引執法人員審慎面對舉審查新的PFAS申請登錄避免PFAS在未經管制下進入市場所以\n我們在這裡很具體的要求根據這個環境部篩選認定毒性及關注化學物質的作業原則的第6條的關注化學物質篩選的認定原則的第二款\n化學物質具廣泛終端消費者或使用於民生消費品可能危害人體健康或污染環境生態之餘者我們要求其他剩下的都要公告列管委關注化學物質\n好,謝謝委員,委員的意見我會來處理,然後我們定期再跟委員回報知事提到,你知道你們事實上你們你們這個報告我是不滿意,第51頁你們說從112年的調查結果,全服\nPFAS家族就潛伏碗機物質已經完成第二輪調查其實你們是調查飲用水水質調查裡面而你們這個調查來講沒有列管你們飲用水水質調查報告就沒有把你們列管的這一些東西要放入例行性常規性應檢測項目你們列為應檢測項目都沒有\n水源水質類,你們是委託委外研究委外研究人一家不二家做一家但你們沒有列為常規應固定監測應列為這個檢測項目之一,你們沒有而且我剛剛講日本人人家做到人體危害所以人體健康調查也有了\n世界各國都在救人體健康風險我們到底這個環境風險的已經到多高了你們在水質水源保護區算是相對上游的那一般下游如何環境上的風險他已經影響危害有多大\n在人體的健康風險裡面臺灣的調查報告本土的數據研究在哪裡我們通通落後管制行為也落後什麼都落後我今天就還沒有辦法因為時間有限沒有辦法就你們說明報告再就教於你啦但是我希望部長你是第一個正式面對這些事情而且願意去制定管制的這個政策有效的管理的第一個部長可以嗎\n謝謝林淑芬委員的發言\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.693 --> 00:09.555\n主席,是不是請我們彭部長。請彭部長。林委員好。部長,今天一個早上的這個質詢令我寡慕相看,因為所有的業務都是你本人親自回答。看起來很認真,而且也相當的有一定程度的專業。我不認為你說你剛來,看起來好像很賢手。\n\n00:30.189 --> 00:48.922\n不過我想要跟你們大家就這個氣候變遷等等的探費等等的討論但我今天要跟你談一點不一樣的就是說上個月食藥署在公布這個邊境查驗不合格的產品其中有一項是頂呱呱從中國進口的這個漢堡盒結果該產品檢測檢驗的畜酸測試結果榮出達到1132的ppm比標準足足多了37倍\n\n00:59.629 --> 01:00.410\n你有看到這個新聞嗎?\n\n01:00.410 --> 01:12.123\n有有不過我今天要說的是比這個還要更嚴重的我要說的是PFAS這個化學物質家族台灣源頭的管制遠遠落後於國際的管制\n\n01:15.680 --> 01:36.668\n那這個問題事實上你們今天的業務報告裡面也講了一些那我先跟你就這個議題再深入的討論我們這麼的落後於國際的規範甚至連食品包材都沒有規範許多消費性的民生商品都可以發現有化學物質家族這個化學物質家族\n\n01:37.208 --> 02:00.833\n但是整個國家不管你這個環境部門還是衛生部門全部都沒有積極的在管制讓我們的人民在日常生活當中輕易的都可以接觸到這個對環境、對人體健康影響極大的PFAS的化學物質更何況還是食品包裝的包材還有大家天天在吃的這個一次性的使用的這個紙袋等等\n\n02:01.933 --> 02:17.081\n大家都知道PFOS是化學家族的一個大家族,它其中最知名的物質就是PFOs,還有等等啦,它的家族的產品,它的化學物質有超過一萬兩千多種。\n\n02:18.171 --> 02:18.191\n拜訪議員\n\n02:35.473 --> 02:48.686\n包括不沾鍋包括防油的紙袋紙盒那我們穿身體上穿帶也很多防水衣褲那消防器材等等都含有PFAS的這個化學物質\n\n02:50.948 --> 03:19.513\n那這個化學物質它帶有侵水機所以它在自然環境中不但幾乎不可能消失而且會跟著水在地球到處滲透它進入我們的土壤到我們的食物鏈最後都到人體裡面來這個不容易分解的特性讓PFAS在環境中的濃度對生物的危害這個累積會不斷的累積而放大\n\n03:20.333 --> 03:35.727\n那根據瑞典斯的哥爾摩大學一篇研究光是PFAS的四個家族裡面的這四種PFOS、PFO、PFHXS、PFHS、還有PFNA\n\n03:37.208 --> 03:58.980\n這是種他在雨水中的濃度都已經超過美國飲用水終生健康的這個建議值在丹麥他飲用水的限值在歐洲地表水的環境品質標準所以他在斯德哥摩的研究就是說他都超過了這些標準\n\n04:00.370 --> 04:26.154\n那PFAS無所不在其實都被民眾吃進去我們都吃下去了2021年的一份一次性的包裝永久化學殘留的報告調查歐盟有6個國家他們做了一次性食品包裝或是餐具當中是不是含有PFAS的狀況的調查結果檢測42個項目\n\n04:30.356 --> 04:38.352\n有多少的檢出你知道嗎?部長你知道嗎?猜猜看這叫你回答出來我覺得太困難了你猜一下\n\n04:39.924 --> 04:59.934\n六個歐盟六個國家檢測四十二個有多少檢出你知道嗎?應該比例很高九成以上三十二三十二個這是2021年到了2023年另一份報告他收集了連台灣在內十七個國家一百一十九個食品包裝容器\n\n05:00.754 --> 05:02.536\n結果超過一半有64個樣本檢出含有PFAS所以你知道臺灣食品包裝一次性的包裝包括我們可能吃水煎包或者吃這個我忘了叫什麼名字等等\n\n05:23.353 --> 05:23.853\n那我們就要來問了\n\n05:53.395 --> 05:54.180\n批發對人體的危害風險有多大?\n\n05:57.008 --> 06:23.868\n很大報告委員我最近其實特別看了幾個資料就是說我們的有幾個水庫水質檢測那個PFAS真的很高我有看到你的報告裡面有寫但你先聽我說我們從美國疾病管制中心他在2011到2012年這個已經是十幾年前了他們就收集的資料報告顯示97%的美國人的血液當中含有PFAS\n\n06:24.568 --> 06:28.449\n歐洲有一個人類生物監測計畫他從2014監測到2021針對歐洲9個國家12歲到18歲的青年人總共有1957個血清樣本他們檢測12種PFAS物質的含量\n\n06:46.897 --> 07:03.499\n結果有14.3%的樣本他的血液中PFAS的濃度超過歐洲食品安全局建議的安全標準12到18歲多年輕啊\n\n07:19.172 --> 07:43.566\n2023年去年日本日本研究調查東京他只做多摩多摩地區650位居民的協議中的PFOS濃度發現PFOS和PFO的平均濃度是全國平均值的2.4倍所以東京都聽就馬上停用他們多摩地區內\n\n07:45.848 --> 08:05.158\n40個水井因為在這些水源當中檢測出這個PFOS物質那PFOS大家我們都說這個風險在哪裡這兩大化學物質裡面最有名的PFOS裡面最有名的就是PFOA和PFOS就是PFOA和PFOS我剛剛講的都是PFOA和PFOS\n\n08:07.099 --> 08:33.800\n她已有足夠的研究證明她跟部分疾病是高度相關包括甲狀腺疾病、腎臟癌、肝損傷、血脂的濃度、心血管疾病、睪丸癌、乳癌降低女性生育率還有最重要的接觸胎兒後對胎兒有很多短中長期的影響那我的意思是說台灣做什麼\n\n08:35.962 --> 08:52.007\n臺灣在下保定我希望你是第一個高度而關心而且積極管制的部長過去的臺灣不管是衛生單位不管是環境部門都沒有在下都沒有在\n\n08:55.178 --> 09:20.396\n報告委員這個部分因為我讀了報告我也嚇一跳就是這幾天我再跟你報告一下因為你就看這個水質報告而已那還沒有列管那只是增加一個檢測而已我現在講說PFAS在台灣我們的管制不足遠遠落後於國際公約而且我剛剛講PFAS所造成的危害逐漸被各國這個都所共識\n\n09:21.357 --> 09:45.772\n所有的國家都已經紛紛的領先施德克爾摩公約的管制喔施德克爾摩公約它的列管已經是國際上管制的最低標準很多國家的管制標準都高於施德克爾摩公約而我們我們連施德克爾摩公約都還遠遠落後於公約之後\n\n09:50.307 --> 09:53.991\n施德格爾摩公約列管了PFAS家族下的PFOS、PFO還有PFHXS\n\n10:11.667 --> 10:34.350\n那最早被列管的PFORCE家族是以附有CAS的號碼的方式列出8種PFORCE家族我國只有跟進列管幾種你知道嗎這是最有名的而且危害相對風險最高的8種我們列管了幾種你知道嗎業務單位說我覺得這個叫部長回答太難了\n\n10:35.305 --> 10:44.312\n跟委員報告,原來是4種,那我們在4月27再公告了147種你現在現在講講你有聽我在講嗎啦我在問你的是PFOS8種列管的3種你講的4種是加了PFOA裡面1種\n\n11:00.612 --> 11:14.625\n你只列管了一種可是人家光是PFOA家族有364種你只列管了一種PFOA是八種你只列管了三種PFOA364種你只列管了一種\n\n11:17.648 --> 11:25.393\n你講的100加起來100多是今年斯德哥爾摩公約在列管PFHXS化學物質147種這147種你們因為他一次列管公佈所有清單我們才跟進把PFHXS列管全部\n\n11:44.827 --> 12:06.933\n所以你是今年才加了這一個物質列管的147種最嚴重的大家最常用的PIVOS你只列管4種可是全部有364加8種各位委員報告這部分我們正在研議當中也會的吧我有看到啦我有看到今天的報告啦現在我要再請部長\n\n12:08.737 --> 12:27.693\n就是說全部PFAS這一些化學物質大概有12000多種根據我剛剛的報告就是說公約、明定三大要列管的化學物質這個就是PFOS、PFH、XS\n\n12:31.355 --> 12:55.082\n這三大是公約明確它是最低標準就是說這三種一定要管有519種加起來519種一定要列管可是我們加起來就只有151種遠遠落後於國際最低標準的公約標準而公約是全世界各國管制裡面的最低標準我們看不到人家的車尾燈\n\n12:56.023 --> 12:56.966\n我們光是這三種化學物質還少了368種可不可以一併馬上列管?\n\n13:03.513 --> 13:28.782\n報告委員,這個其實這個STOCKHOLM的這個公約是建議出來但是我們也觀察其他的國家也有訂對,那我們會持續的保持關注所以委員的建議不是關注啦,要列管啦報告委員,能不能讓我補充一下我們從這個禮拜一開始應該是昨天我們邀請了瑞典的三位專家他就是起草那個好啦沒關係啦,你跟我講你們什麼時候要列管啦\n\n13:32.145 --> 13:50.065\n還沒有列入管理的一併列管啊。我們會按照這個程序來給他做延伸。好好好,我再去救救部長。保證,這是你可能比較沒有關注到的,但我再問你。跟上司的各模公約是最低標準,但是我們還要,不要忘了我們有自己的法律啊。\n\n14:07.560 --> 14:25.112\nPFAS這個大家族那根據獨管法的定義只有建置於既有化學物質清澈的化學物質才叫做既有化學物質所以一萬兩千多個PFAS的化學物質我們既有化學物質有821個\n\n14:27.293 --> 14:46.584\n所以對我國而言只有這821種的PFAS才叫做既有的PFAS那其他11000多種沒有列入既有化學物質清澈的PFAS都是新的PFAS新的化學物質那根據毒性化學物質管理法第30條\n\n14:47.785 --> 14:47.805\n拜訪議員\n\n15:06.972 --> 15:34.558\nPFOA在人體中半衰期要3.5年可是我們天天在吃啊每天吃啊你這一天吃的要3.5年明天吃的又要3.5年其實你永遠都代謝不完永遠都存在所以它在PFAS在環境當中的半衰期則相當長比如說我剛剛講的PFOA在人體內要3.5年但是它在水體中猜猜看要多少年才會衰減一半猜猜看啦\n\n15:36.806 --> 16:00.951\n我知道這有點難了水體中要9292年才會衰減一半所以對生物體的危害有所累積對人體環境影響大這樣的特性和風險相當相當的大所以我們化學署在核准登錄的時候都應該按照獨管法第31條\n\n16:02.671 --> 16:26.789\n中央主管機關評估新化學物質之特性有符合毒性或關注化學物質定義之餘者都應該在核准登錄時付予付款要求提供化學物質危害資訊更新登錄相關報告資料或定期申報運作情形必要時要禁止或限制其運作我知道你們這個已經對今年公佈的這個PFHX\n\n16:31.673 --> 16:54.886\n一百四十七種你們已經登錄為第一類的毒性化學物質那其他相對確定的毒性化學物質管制當然比關注化學物質還要高那其他如果你還沒有辦法我們認為說相對的面對還有這麼多種一萬一千多種的批法史上的風險我們要再依據現有的法規\n\n16:56.227 --> 17:15.708\n我希望彭啟明部長你是能夠明確的制定PFAS的管理政策完善PFAS的定義和這個判定方式來指引執法人員審慎面對舉審查新的PFAS申請登錄避免PFAS在未經管制下進入市場所以\n\n17:17.110 --> 17:32.245\n我們在這裡很具體的要求根據這個環境部篩選認定毒性及關注化學物質的作業原則的第6條的關注化學物質篩選的認定原則的第二款\n\n17:33.286 --> 17:50.837\n化學物質具廣泛終端消費者或使用於民生消費品可能危害人體健康或污染環境生態之餘者我們要求其他剩下的都要公告列管委關注化學物質\n\n17:52.196 --> 18:02.605\n好,謝謝委員,委員的意見我會來處理,然後我們定期再跟委員回報知事提到,你知道你們事實上你們你們這個報告我是不滿意,第51頁你們說從112年的調查結果,全服\n\n18:08.109 --> 18:27.874\nPFAS家族就潛伏碗機物質已經完成第二輪調查其實你們是調查飲用水水質調查裡面而你們這個調查來講沒有列管你們飲用水水質調查報告就沒有把你們列管的這一些東西要放入例行性常規性應檢測項目你們列為應檢測項目都沒有\n\n18:34.918 --> 18:55.492\n水源水質類,你們是委託委外研究委外研究人一家不二家做一家但你們沒有列為常規應固定監測應列為這個檢測項目之一,你們沒有而且我剛剛講日本人人家做到人體危害所以人體健康調查也有了\n\n18:56.472 --> 19:13.391\n世界各國都在救人體健康風險我們到底這個環境風險的已經到多高了你們在水質水源保護區算是相對上游的那一般下游如何環境上的風險他已經影響危害有多大\n\n19:14.051 --> 19:41.309\n在人體的健康風險裡面臺灣的調查報告本土的數據研究在哪裡我們通通落後管制行為也落後什麼都落後我今天就還沒有辦法因為時間有限沒有辦法就你們說明報告再就教於你啦但是我希望部長你是第一個正式面對這些事情而且願意去制定管制的這個政策有效的管理的第一個部長可以嗎\n\n19:41.789 --> 19:42.710\n謝謝林淑芬委員的發言\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.693,"end":9.555,"text":"主席,是不是請我們彭部長。請彭部長。林委員好。部長,今天一個早上的這個質詢令我寡慕相看,因為所有的業務都是你本人親自回答。看起來很認真,而且也相當的有一定程度的專業。我不認為你說你剛來,看起來好像很賢手。"},{"start":30.189,"end":48.922,"text":"不過我想要跟你們大家就這個氣候變遷等等的探費等等的討論但我今天要跟你談一點不一樣的就是說上個月食藥署在公布這個邊境查驗不合格的產品其中有一項是頂呱呱從中國進口的這個漢堡盒結果該產品檢測檢驗的畜酸測試結果榮出達到1132的ppm比標準足足多了37倍"},{"start":59.629,"end":60.41,"text":"你有看到這個新聞嗎?"},{"start":60.41,"end":72.123,"text":"有 有不過我今天要說的是比這個還要更嚴重的我要說的是PFAS這個化學物質家族台灣源頭的管制遠遠落後於國際的管制"},{"start":75.68,"end":96.668,"text":"那這個問題事實上你們今天的業務報告裡面也講了一些那我先跟你就這個議題再深入的討論我們這麼的落後於國際的規範甚至連食品包材都沒有規範許多消費性的民生商品都可以發現有化學物質家族這個化學物質家族"},{"start":97.208,"end":120.833,"text":"但是整個國家不管你這個環境部門還是衛生部門全部都沒有積極的在管制讓我們的人民在日常生活當中輕易的都可以接觸到這個對環境、對人體健康影響極大的PFAS的化學物質更何況還是食品包裝的包材還有大家天天在吃的這個一次性的使用的這個紙袋等等"},{"start":121.933,"end":137.081,"text":"大家都知道PFOS是化學家族的一個大家族,它其中最知名的物質就是PFOs,還有等等啦,它的家族的產品,它的化學物質有超過一萬兩千多種。"},{"start":138.171,"end":138.191,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":155.473,"end":168.686,"text":"包括不沾鍋包括防油的紙袋紙盒那我們穿身體上穿帶也很多防水衣褲那消防器材等等都含有PFAS的這個化學物質"},{"start":170.948,"end":199.513,"text":"那這個化學物質它帶有侵水機所以它在自然環境中不但幾乎不可能消失而且會跟著水在地球到處滲透它進入我們的土壤到我們的食物鏈最後都到人體裡面來這個不容易分解的特性讓PFAS在環境中的濃度對生物的危害這個累積會不斷的累積而放大"},{"start":200.333,"end":215.727,"text":"那根據瑞典斯的哥爾摩大學一篇研究光是PFAS的四個家族裡面的這四種PFOS、PFO、PFHXS、PFHS、還有PFNA"},{"start":217.208,"end":238.98,"text":"這是種他在雨水中的濃度都已經超過美國飲用水終生健康的這個建議值在丹麥他飲用水的限值在歐洲地表水的環境品質標準所以他在斯德哥摩的研究就是說他都超過了這些標準"},{"start":240.37,"end":266.154,"text":"那PFAS無所不在其實都被民眾吃進去我們都吃下去了2021年的一份一次性的包裝永久化學殘留的報告調查歐盟有6個國家他們做了一次性食品包裝或是餐具當中是不是含有PFAS的狀況的調查結果檢測42個項目"},{"start":270.356,"end":278.352,"text":"有多少的檢出你知道嗎?部長你知道嗎?猜猜看這叫你回答出來我覺得太困難了你猜一下"},{"start":279.924,"end":299.934,"text":"六個歐盟六個國家檢測四十二個有多少檢出你知道嗎?應該比例很高九成以上三十二三十二個這是2021年到了2023年另一份報告他收集了連台灣在內十七個國家一百一十九個食品包裝容器"},{"start":300.754,"end":302.536,"text":"結果超過一半有64個樣本檢出含有PFAS所以你知道臺灣食品包裝一次性的包裝包括我們可能吃水煎包或者吃這個我忘了叫什麼名字等等"},{"start":323.353,"end":323.853,"text":"那我們就要來問了"},{"start":353.395,"end":354.18,"text":"批發對人體的危害風險有多大?"},{"start":357.008,"end":383.868,"text":"很大報告委員我最近其實特別看了幾個資料就是說我們的有幾個水庫水質檢測那個PFAS真的很高我有看到你的報告裡面有寫但你先聽我說我們從美國疾病管制中心他在2011到2012年這個已經是十幾年前了他們就收集的資料報告顯示97%的美國人的血液當中含有PFAS"},{"start":384.568,"end":388.449,"text":"歐洲有一個人類生物監測計畫他從2014監測到2021針對歐洲9個國家12歲到18歲的青年人總共有1957個血清樣本他們檢測12種PFAS物質的含量"},{"start":406.897,"end":423.499,"text":"結果有14.3%的樣本他的血液中PFAS的濃度超過歐洲食品安全局建議的安全標準12到18歲多年輕啊"},{"start":424.753,"end":437.346,"text":"﹗"},{"start":439.172,"end":463.566,"text":"2023年去年日本日本研究調查東京他只做多摩多摩地區650位居民的協議中的PFOS濃度發現PFOS和PFO的平均濃度是全國平均值的2.4倍所以東京都聽就馬上停用他們多摩地區內"},{"start":465.848,"end":485.158,"text":"40個水井因為在這些水源當中檢測出這個PFOS物質那PFOS大家我們都說這個風險在哪裡這兩大化學物質裡面最有名的PFOS裡面最有名的就是PFOA和PFOS就是PFOA和PFOS我剛剛講的都是PFOA和PFOS"},{"start":487.099,"end":513.8,"text":"她已有足夠的研究證明她跟部分疾病是高度相關包括甲狀腺疾病、腎臟癌、肝損傷、血脂的濃度、心血管疾病、睪丸癌、乳癌降低女性生育率還有最重要的接觸胎兒後對胎兒有很多短中長期的影響那我的意思是說台灣做什麼"},{"start":515.962,"end":532.007,"text":"臺灣在下保定我希望你是第一個高度而關心而且積極管制的部長過去的臺灣不管是衛生單位不管是環境部門都沒有在下都沒有在"},{"start":535.178,"end":560.396,"text":"報告委員這個部分因為我讀了報告我也嚇一跳就是這幾天我再跟你報告一下因為你就看這個水質報告而已那還沒有列管那只是增加一個檢測而已我現在講說PFAS在台灣我們的管制不足遠遠落後於國際公約而且我剛剛講PFAS所造成的危害逐漸被各國這個都所共識"},{"start":561.357,"end":585.772,"text":"所有的國家都已經紛紛的領先施德克爾摩公約的管制喔施德克爾摩公約它的列管已經是國際上管制的最低標準很多國家的管制標準都高於施德克爾摩公約而我們我們連施德克爾摩公約都還遠遠落後於公約之後"},{"start":590.307,"end":593.991,"text":"施德格爾摩公約列管了PFAS家族下的PFOS、PFO還有PFHXS"},{"start":611.667,"end":634.35,"text":"那最早被列管的PFORCE家族是以附有CAS的號碼的方式列出8種PFORCE家族我國只有跟進列管幾種你知道嗎這是最有名的而且危害相對風險最高的8種我們列管了幾種你知道嗎業務單位說我覺得這個叫部長回答太難了"},{"start":635.305,"end":644.312,"text":"跟委員報告,原來是4種,那我們在4月27再公告了147種你現在現在講講你有聽我在講嗎啦我在問你的是PFOS8種列管的3種你講的4種是加了PFOA裡面1種"},{"start":660.612,"end":674.625,"text":"你只列管了一種可是人家光是PFOA家族有364種你只列管了一種PFOA是八種你只列管了三種PFOA364種你只列管了一種"},{"start":677.648,"end":685.393,"text":"你講的100加起來100多是今年斯德哥爾摩公約在列管PFHXS化學物質147種這147種你們因為他一次列管公佈所有清單我們才跟進把PFHXS列管全部"},{"start":704.827,"end":726.933,"text":"所以你是今年才加了這一個物質列管的147種最嚴重的大家最常用的PIVOS你只列管4種可是全部有364加8種各位委員報告這部分我們正在研議當中也會的吧我有看到啦我有看到今天的報告啦現在我要再請部長"},{"start":728.737,"end":747.693,"text":"就是說全部PFAS這一些化學物質大概有12000多種根據我剛剛的報告就是說公約、明定三大要列管的化學物質這個就是PFOS、PFH、XS"},{"start":751.355,"end":775.082,"text":"這三大是公約明確它是最低標準就是說這三種一定要管有519種加起來519種一定要列管可是我們加起來就只有151種遠遠落後於國際最低標準的公約標準而公約是全世界各國管制裡面的最低標準我們看不到人家的車尾燈"},{"start":776.023,"end":776.966,"text":"我們光是這三種化學物質還少了368種可不可以一併馬上列管?"},{"start":783.513,"end":808.782,"text":"報告委員,這個其實這個STOCKHOLM的這個公約是建議出來但是我們也觀察其他的國家也有訂對,那我們會持續的保持關注所以委員的建議不是關注啦,要列管啦報告委員,能不能讓我補充一下我們從這個禮拜一開始應該是昨天我們邀請了瑞典的三位專家他就是起草那個好啦沒關係啦,你跟我講你們什麼時候要列管啦"},{"start":812.145,"end":830.065,"text":"還沒有列入管理的一併列管啊。我們會按照這個程序來給他做延伸。好好好,我再去救救部長。保證,這是你可能比較沒有關注到的,但我再問你。跟上司的各模公約是最低標準,但是我們還要,不要忘了我們有自己的法律啊。"},{"start":830.606,"end":847.398,"text":"﹗"},{"start":847.56,"end":865.112,"text":"PFAS這個大家族那根據獨管法的定義只有建置於既有化學物質清澈的化學物質才叫做既有化學物質所以一萬兩千多個PFAS的化學物質我們既有化學物質有821個"},{"start":867.293,"end":886.584,"text":"所以對我國而言只有這821種的PFAS才叫做既有的PFAS那其他11000多種沒有列入既有化學物質清澈的PFAS都是新的PFAS新的化學物質那根據毒性化學物質管理法第30條"},{"start":887.785,"end":887.805,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":906.972,"end":934.558,"text":"PFOA在人體中半衰期要3.5年可是我們天天在吃啊每天吃啊你這一天吃的要3.5年明天吃的又要3.5年其實你永遠都代謝不完永遠都存在所以它在PFAS在環境當中的半衰期則相當長比如說我剛剛講的PFOA在人體內要3.5年但是它在水體中猜猜看要多少年才會衰減一半猜猜看啦"},{"start":936.806,"end":960.951,"text":"我知道這有點難了水體中要9292年才會衰減一半所以對生物體的危害有所累積對人體環境影響大這樣的特性和風險相當相當的大所以我們化學署在核准登錄的時候都應該按照獨管法第31條"},{"start":962.671,"end":986.789,"text":"中央主管機關評估新化學物質之特性有符合毒性或關注化學物質定義之餘者都應該在核准登錄時付予付款要求提供化學物質危害資訊更新登錄相關報告資料或定期申報運作情形必要時要禁止或限制其運作我知道你們這個已經對今年公佈的這個PFHX"},{"start":991.673,"end":1014.886,"text":"一百四十七種你們已經登錄為第一類的毒性化學物質那其他相對確定的毒性化學物質管制當然比關注化學物質還要高那其他如果你還沒有辦法我們認為說相對的面對還有這麼多種一萬一千多種的批法史上的風險我們要再依據現有的法規"},{"start":1016.227,"end":1035.708,"text":"我希望彭啟明部長你是能夠明確的制定PFAS的管理政策完善PFAS的定義和這個判定方式來指引執法人員審慎面對舉審查新的PFAS申請登錄避免PFAS在未經管制下進入市場所以"},{"start":1037.11,"end":1052.245,"text":"我們在這裡很具體的要求根據這個環境部篩選認定毒性及關注化學物質的作業原則的第6條的關注化學物質篩選的認定原則的第二款"},{"start":1053.286,"end":1070.837,"text":"化學物質具廣泛終端消費者或使用於民生消費品可能危害人體健康或污染環境生態之餘者我們要求其他剩下的都要公告列管委關注化學物質"},{"start":1072.196,"end":1082.605,"text":"好,謝謝委員,委員的意見我會來處理,然後我們定期再跟委員回報知事提到,你知道你們事實上你們你們這個報告我是不滿意,第51頁你們說從112年的調查結果,全服"},{"start":1088.109,"end":1107.874,"text":"PFAS家族就潛伏碗機物質已經完成第二輪調查其實你們是調查飲用水水質調查裡面而你們這個調查來講沒有列管你們飲用水水質調查報告就沒有把你們列管的這一些東西要放入例行性常規性應檢測項目你們列為應檢測項目都沒有"},{"start":1114.918,"end":1135.492,"text":"水源水質類,你們是委託委外研究委外研究人一家不二家做一家但你們沒有列為常規應固定監測應列為這個檢測項目之一,你們沒有而且我剛剛講日本人人家做到人體危害所以人體健康調查也有了"},{"start":1136.472,"end":1153.391,"text":"世界各國都在救人體健康風險我們到底這個環境風險的已經到多高了你們在水質水源保護區算是相對上游的那一般下游如何環境上的風險他已經影響危害有多大"},{"start":1154.051,"end":1181.309,"text":"在人體的健康風險裡面臺灣的調查報告本土的數據研究在哪裡我們通通落後管制行為也落後什麼都落後我今天就還沒有辦法因為時間有限沒有辦法就你們說明報告再就教於你啦但是我希望部長你是第一個正式面對這些事情而且願意去制定管制的這個政策有效的管理的第一個部長可以嗎"},{"start":1181.789,"end":1182.71,"text":"謝謝林淑芬委員的發言"}]}}}}