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09:20:34","影片長度":"00:06:28","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請公平交易委員會主任委員就「外送平台併購是否涉及限制競爭之調查程序、認定原則及對消費者權益影響之配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查：\n（一）本院委員邱志偉等16人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":388,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T09:20:34+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T09:14:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":147,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時14分）謝謝，主席，我是不是請一下主委？"],["主席：我們請主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員早。"],["邱委員議瑩：主委早。我想請教一下，我們今天討論外送平台Uber Eats跟foodpanda的合併案，剛剛您的報告裡頭也談到目前公平會的看法。在疫情過後大量使用外送平台不只是臺灣的日常，已經是全世界的日常，Uber Eats宣布要以9.5億美元併購foodpanda。剛剛我特別聽了一下，您的報告裡頭有談到，你們要考量的部分包含市占率，對不對？整個公平性的考量上面有包含市占率。其實這個案子在臺灣非科技業的交易案裡頭，應該也算是受矚目的交易案。請教一下主委，你怎麼看這個案子？到底公平會要如何就這個案件進行審查？它的市占率要怎麼算？目前看起來Uber Eats是占32%，foodpanda占43%，兩個加起來已經接近八成，但是也有人說其實很多人是兩家都在用，所以它的市占率可能沒那麼高，市占率真的沒那麼高嗎？你們要怎麼計算那個市占率？我首先問這一個。"],["李主任委員鎂：謝謝委員提問，衡量市占率的面向非常多，譬如說他們的營業額、信用卡簽單或者訂單數等等。我們會很審慎的評估，最主要是從這幾個面向來看。"],["邱委員議瑩：你從營業額還是……"],["李主任委員鎂：信用卡簽單。"],["邱委員議瑩：用信用卡簽單計算……"],["李主任委員鎂：還有訂單，還有營業額。"],["邱委員議瑩：用訂單數計算它的市占率。"],["李主任委員鎂：我們有一個界定的原則，會根據這個SOP來處理。"],["邱委員議瑩：你未來會不會把所有的餐飲店家通通合併計算進去？"],["李主任委員鎂：不是計算餐飲店家，主要是我剛剛提到的營業額、信用卡簽單、訂單數，從這一些看它的市占率。"],["邱委員議瑩：第二個我要請教一下，對於員工的保障或者是參與店家的保障，這一些有沒有在你們考量的因素裡頭？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個會是裡面的考量因素。"],["邱委員議瑩：你現在能夠考量的因素到底會有幾項，可不可以一項一項跟委員會說明？"],["李主任委員鎂：剛才我有提到以幾個面向看這個結合案件，包括集中程度、競爭者減少是不是有抬高價格的能力、同業間會不會有提高聯合行為的風險，還有一個是交易相對人的議價能力。所謂交易相對人就包括餐廳、外送員、消費者，這一些交易相對人會不會因為結合的結果，讓他在談判過程當中的議價能力受到影響，這個都會一起考量。"],["邱委員議瑩：你所謂的議價能力有沒有包括比如說這些消費者的權益或者是外送員的權益、餐廳抽成的權益等等？這些有沒有包括在你剛才談的這些……"],["李主任委員鎂：都會通盤考量。"],["邱委員議瑩：都在這些考量裡頭？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：我記得過去你們在審查統一跟家樂福併購案的時候，大家也會有一些擔憂跟疑慮，後來這個併購案是成功的，但是你們有幾項附帶條件，把它加總進去。像這麼重大的併購案，你們會不會相對的把這些條件加進去？大家長期一直在討論，比如說餐廳的抽成被抽30%到35%，未來只有一家外送業者，有可能它的抽成還會更高，小吃業者的負擔其實會加重。對於外送員的權益、薪資、勞動條件的保障等等，會不會順帶在你們的附加決議裡頭一併考量，或者是把它附在決議裡頭，把它講得很清楚？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們對於這個結合案，最後委員會的結果是同意還是不同意還要討論，假設不同意就沒有附加條件；假設同意……"],["邱委員議瑩：當然，假如不同意就沒有這些東西了。"],["李主任委員鎂：假設同意的話……"],["邱委員議瑩：假設同意的話呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：怎麼做條件、怎麼做負擔，這個要經過委員會討論，才能看看怎麼樣是最適切的……"],["邱委員議瑩：好，當然不是在這裡下指導棋，只是外送平台對於這些外送員的權益、商家被抽成的比例過高等等，所有的勞動權甚至市占率，以後消費者的權益，未來假如你們通過這樣重大的併購案時，我們希望照顧消費者、保護消費者、保護商家，甚至保護外送員相對權利的部分，也都能夠列入你們附加的條件裡頭，因為這個大家已經談太多了。過去你們都沒有辦法管制他們，是不是建議利用這樣的一個審查機會，把這些相對的東西提出來？甚至你們在審查的時候，應該也可以要求他們提出相對保障的作法，是不是這樣？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，這個我們都會通盤考量，尤其社會關切這一些消費者、外送員、餐廳等等，還有整個市場競爭的影響，這個我們都會一起考量。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，休息1分鐘。","休息（9時20分）","繼續開會（9時21分）"],["主席（邱委員議瑩）：好，我們現在請陳亭妃委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-13","speakers":["邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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00:00:47,213\n主委早所以我想請教一下就是我們今天討論的這個外送平台UberEats跟Fupanda的這個合併案那剛剛您的報告裡頭其實也談到了一些目前公平會的看法我想在疫情過後大量的使用外送平台這個已經是全世界的日常不只是台灣的日常是全世界的日常那UberEats宣布要這個併購以9.5億的美元來併購Fupanda\n\n3\n00:00:50,575 --> 00:00:50,875\n主委（\n\n4\n00:01:19,909 --> 00:01:41,061\n您怎麼看這個案子?到底公平會要如何來救這個案來進行審查?它的市佔率要怎麼算?如果說到目前的看起來,UberEats是佔32%,Foodpanda佔43%,兩個加起來就已經接近八成。\n\n5\n00:01:42,569 --> 00:02:01,169\n但是也會有人說其實很多人是兩家都在用所以他的市佔率可能沒那麼高但是他市佔率真的沒那麼高嗎你們要怎麼去計算那個市佔率我首先先問這一個謝謝委員提問市佔率在衡量的面向非常多也包括譬如說他們的營業額\n\n6\n00:02:02,270 --> 00:02:05,853\n二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具〈多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案〉案。\n\n7\n00:02:33,425 --> 00:02:54,848\n會不會?不是計算餐飲店家,就是主要我剛提到的營業額、信用卡簽單、訂單數,這一些來看它的這個市佔率。好,第二個我要請教一下,對於員工的保障,或者是說對於餐飲的店家的保障,這一些有沒有在你們考量的因素裡頭?這個會在裡面的考量因素?\n\n8\n00:02:55,709 --> 00:03:15,909\n你現在能夠考量的因素到底會有幾項你可不可以一項一項來跟委員會做說明那剛才我有提到說我們有幾個面向來來看這個結合案件包括這個集中程度那競爭者減少了是不是有抬高價格的能力同業間會不會有這個提高聯合行為的風險\n\n9\n00:03:16,510 --> 00:03:19,951\n議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具〈多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案〉案。\n\n10\n00:03:41,658 --> 00:04:00,224\n等等餐廳的抽成的權益等等這些有沒有包括在您當初提的這些都在這些考量裡頭我記得過去你們在審查統一跟家樂福併購案的時候其實大家也會有一些擔憂疑慮那後來這個併購案是成功的但是你們有幾項的附帶條件把它加總進去\n\n11\n00:04:05,146 --> 00:04:31,097\n那像這個這麼重大的併購案你們會不會也相對的把這些條件把它加進去又或者是說大家長期一直在討論的比如說餐廳的這個抽成被抽30到35%未來只有一家外送業者有可能他的抽成還會再更高你對小吃業者的負擔其實是會加重對外送員的權益他們的薪資這個勞動的\n\n12\n00:04:33,558 --> 00:04:34,538\n我們對這個結合案的這個最後委員會的結果是\n\n13\n00:04:51,311 --> 00:05:07,806\n同意還是不同意這個還要討論假設是不同意就沒有附加條件當然啦當然啦我現在問就是說假如不同意就沒有這些東西了嗎假設同意的話假設是同意的話呢怎麼做條件怎麼做負擔我想這個要經過委員會討論才能去\n\n14\n00:05:08,840 --> 00:05:11,682\n二、審查（一）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具:「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案。）\n\n15\n00:05:30,678 --> 00:05:30,698\n韓國瑜議員\n\n16\n00:05:47,822 --> 00:06:10,409\n都也能夠列入在你們所謂的附加條件裡頭因為這個大家已經談太多了嘛過去你們都沒有辦法可以去管制他們是不是就建議也利用這樣的一個審查的機會我覺得把這些相對的東西把它提出來甚至就是說你們在審查的時候我覺得應該也可以要求他們提出相對保障的做法出來嘛是不是\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n69\t1911\t先祭第一位邱議瑩委員召委,請發言。委員長\n20112\t47213\t主委早所以我想請教一下就是我們今天討論的這個外送平台UberEats跟Fupanda的這個合併案那剛剛您的報告裡頭其實也談到了一些目前公平會的看法我想在疫情過後大量的使用外送平台這個已經是全世界的日常不只是台灣的日常是全世界的日常那UberEats宣布要這個併購以9.5億的美元來併購Fupanda\n50575\t50875\t主委（\n79909\t101061\t您怎麼看這個案子?到底公平會要如何來救這個案來進行審查?它的市佔率要怎麼算?如果說到目前的看起來,Uber Eats是佔32%,Foodpanda佔43%,兩個加起來就已經接近八成。\n102569\t121169\t但是也會有人說其實很多人是兩家都在用所以他的市佔率可能沒那麼高但是他市佔率真的沒那麼高嗎你們要怎麼去計算那個市佔率我首先先問這一個謝謝委員提問市佔率在衡量的面向非常多也包括譬如說他們的營業額\n122270\t125853\t二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具〈多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案〉案。\n153425\t174848\t會不會?不是計算餐飲店家,就是主要我剛提到的營業額、信用卡簽單、訂單數,這一些來看它的這個市佔率。好,第二個我要請教一下,對於員工的保障,或者是說對於餐飲的店家的保障,這一些有沒有在你們考量的因素裡頭?這個會在裡面的考量因素?\n175709\t195909\t你現在能夠考量的因素到底會有幾項你可不可以一項一項來跟委員會做說明那剛才我有提到說我們有幾個面向來來看這個結合案件包括這個集中程度那競爭者減少了是不是有抬高價格的能力同業間會不會有這個提高聯合行為的風險\n196510\t199951\t議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具〈多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案〉案。\n221658\t240224\t等等餐廳的抽成的權益等等這些有沒有包括在您當初提的這些都在這些考量裡頭我記得過去你們在審查統一跟家樂福併購案的時候其實大家也會有一些擔憂疑慮那後來這個併購案是成功的但是你們有幾項的附帶條件把它加總進去\n245146\t271097\t那像這個這麼重大的併購案你們會不會也相對的把這些條件把它加進去又或者是說大家長期一直在討論的比如說餐廳的這個抽成被抽30到35%未來只有一家外送業者有可能他的抽成還會再更高你對小吃業者的負擔其實是會加重對外送員的權益他們的薪資這個勞動的\n273558\t274538\t我們對這個結合案的這個最後委員會的結果是\n291311\t307806\t同意還是不同意這個還要討論假設是不同意就沒有附加條件當然啦當然啦我現在問就是說假如不同意就沒有這些東西了嗎假設同意的話假設是同意的話呢怎麼做條件怎麼做負擔我想這個要經過委員會討論才能去\n308840\t311682\t二、審查（一）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具:「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案。）\n330678\t330698\t韓國瑜議員\n347822\t370409\t都也能夠列入在你們所謂的附加條件裡頭因為這個大家已經談太多了嘛過去你們都沒有辦法可以去管制他們是不是就建議也利用這樣的一個審查的機會我覺得把這些相對的東西把它提出來甚至就是說你們在審查的時候我覺得應該也可以要求他們提出相對保障的做法出來嘛是不是\n370589\t382671\t議員楊瓊瓔\n","txt":"先祭第一位邱議瑩委員召委,請發言。委員長\n主委早所以我想請教一下就是我們今天討論的這個外送平台UberEats跟Fupanda的這個合併案那剛剛您的報告裡頭其實也談到了一些目前公平會的看法我想在疫情過後大量的使用外送平台這個已經是全世界的日常不只是台灣的日常是全世界的日常那UberEats宣布要這個併購以9.5億的美元來併購Fupanda\n主委（\n您怎麼看這個案子?到底公平會要如何來救這個案來進行審查?它的市佔率要怎麼算?如果說到目前的看起來,Uber Eats是佔32%,Foodpanda佔43%,兩個加起來就已經接近八成。\n但是也會有人說其實很多人是兩家都在用所以他的市佔率可能沒那麼高但是他市佔率真的沒那麼高嗎你們要怎麼去計算那個市佔率我首先先問這一個謝謝委員提問市佔率在衡量的面向非常多也包括譬如說他們的營業額\n二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具〈多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案〉案。\n會不會?不是計算餐飲店家,就是主要我剛提到的營業額、信用卡簽單、訂單數,這一些來看它的這個市佔率。好,第二個我要請教一下,對於員工的保障,或者是說對於餐飲的店家的保障,這一些有沒有在你們考量的因素裡頭?這個會在裡面的考量因素?\n你現在能夠考量的因素到底會有幾項你可不可以一項一項來跟委員會做說明那剛才我有提到說我們有幾個面向來來看這個結合案件包括這個集中程度那競爭者減少了是不是有抬高價格的能力同業間會不會有這個提高聯合行為的風險\n議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具〈多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案〉案。\n等等餐廳的抽成的權益等等這些有沒有包括在您當初提的這些都在這些考量裡頭我記得過去你們在審查統一跟家樂福併購案的時候其實大家也會有一些擔憂疑慮那後來這個併購案是成功的但是你們有幾項的附帶條件把它加總進去\n那像這個這麼重大的併購案你們會不會也相對的把這些條件把它加進去又或者是說大家長期一直在討論的比如說餐廳的這個抽成被抽30到35%未來只有一家外送業者有可能他的抽成還會再更高你對小吃業者的負擔其實是會加重對外送員的權益他們的薪資這個勞動的\n我們對這個結合案的這個最後委員會的結果是\n同意還是不同意這個還要討論假設是不同意就沒有附加條件當然啦當然啦我現在問就是說假如不同意就沒有這些東西了嗎假設同意的話假設是同意的話呢怎麼做條件怎麼做負擔我想這個要經過委員會討論才能去\n二、審查（一）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具:「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案。）\n韓國瑜議員\n都也能夠列入在你們所謂的附加條件裡頭因為這個大家已經談太多了嘛過去你們都沒有辦法可以去管制他們是不是就建議也利用這樣的一個審查的機會我覺得把這些相對的東西把它提出來甚至就是說你們在審查的時候我覺得應該也可以要求他們提出相對保障的做法出來嘛是不是\n議員楊瓊瓔\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.069 --> 00:01.911\n先祭第一位邱議瑩委員召委,請發言。委員長\n\n00:20.112 --> 00:47.213\n主委早所以我想請教一下就是我們今天討論的這個外送平台UberEats跟Fupanda的這個合併案那剛剛您的報告裡頭其實也談到了一些目前公平會的看法我想在疫情過後大量的使用外送平台這個已經是全世界的日常不只是台灣的日常是全世界的日常那UberEats宣布要這個併購以9.5億的美元來併購Fupanda\n\n00:50.575 --> 00:50.875\n主委（\n\n01:19.909 --> 01:41.061\n您怎麼看這個案子?到底公平會要如何來救這個案來進行審查?它的市佔率要怎麼算?如果說到目前的看起來,UberEats是佔32%,Foodpanda佔43%,兩個加起來就已經接近八成。\n\n01:42.569 --> 02:01.169\n但是也會有人說其實很多人是兩家都在用所以他的市佔率可能沒那麼高但是他市佔率真的沒那麼高嗎你們要怎麼去計算那個市佔率我首先先問這一個謝謝委員提問市佔率在衡量的面向非常多也包括譬如說他們的營業額\n\n02:02.270 --> 02:05.853\n二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具〈多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案〉案。\n\n02:33.425 --> 02:54.848\n會不會?不是計算餐飲店家,就是主要我剛提到的營業額、信用卡簽單、訂單數,這一些來看它的這個市佔率。好,第二個我要請教一下,對於員工的保障,或者是說對於餐飲的店家的保障,這一些有沒有在你們考量的因素裡頭?這個會在裡面的考量因素?\n\n02:55.709 --> 03:15.909\n你現在能夠考量的因素到底會有幾項你可不可以一項一項來跟委員會做說明那剛才我有提到說我們有幾個面向來來看這個結合案件包括這個集中程度那競爭者減少了是不是有抬高價格的能力同業間會不會有這個提高聯合行為的風險\n\n03:16.510 --> 03:19.951\n議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具〈多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案〉案。\n\n03:41.658 --> 04:00.224\n等等餐廳的抽成的權益等等這些有沒有包括在您當初提的這些都在這些考量裡頭我記得過去你們在審查統一跟家樂福併購案的時候其實大家也會有一些擔憂疑慮那後來這個併購案是成功的但是你們有幾項的附帶條件把它加總進去\n\n04:05.146 --> 04:31.097\n那像這個這麼重大的併購案你們會不會也相對的把這些條件把它加進去又或者是說大家長期一直在討論的比如說餐廳的這個抽成被抽30到35%未來只有一家外送業者有可能他的抽成還會再更高你對小吃業者的負擔其實是會加重對外送員的權益他們的薪資這個勞動的\n\n04:33.558 --> 04:34.538\n我們對這個結合案的這個最後委員會的結果是\n\n04:51.311 --> 05:07.806\n同意還是不同意這個還要討論假設是不同意就沒有附加條件當然啦當然啦我現在問就是說假如不同意就沒有這些東西了嗎假設同意的話假設是同意的話呢怎麼做條件怎麼做負擔我想這個要經過委員會討論才能去\n\n05:08.840 --> 05:11.682\n二、審查（一）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具:「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案。）\n\n05:30.678 --> 05:30.698\n韓國瑜議員\n\n05:47.822 --> 06:10.409\n都也能夠列入在你們所謂的附加條件裡頭因為這個大家已經談太多了嘛過去你們都沒有辦法可以去管制他們是不是就建議也利用這樣的一個審查的機會我覺得把這些相對的東西把它提出來甚至就是說你們在審查的時候我覺得應該也可以要求他們提出相對保障的做法出來嘛是不是\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.069,"end":1.911,"text":"先祭第一位邱議瑩委員召委,請發言。委員長"},{"start":20.112,"end":47.213,"text":"主委早所以我想請教一下就是我們今天討論的這個外送平台UberEats跟Fupanda的這個合併案那剛剛您的報告裡頭其實也談到了一些目前公平會的看法我想在疫情過後大量的使用外送平台這個已經是全世界的日常不只是台灣的日常是全世界的日常那UberEats宣布要這個併購以9.5億的美元來併購Fupanda"},{"start":50.575,"end":50.875,"text":"主委（"},{"start":79.909,"end":101.061,"text":"您怎麼看這個案子?到底公平會要如何來救這個案來進行審查?它的市佔率要怎麼算?如果說到目前的看起來,Uber 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