{"id":152886,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152886","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453f8210e59737f6b83f1f99622ceb699a7d34e896d657c5e83a721eb27b6671d545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:19:27 - 10:28:48","影片長度":"00:09:21","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請公平交易委員會主任委員就「外送平台併購是否涉及限制競爭之調查程序、認定原則及對消費者權益影響之配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查：\n（一）本院委員邱志偉等16人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":561,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T10:28:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T10:19:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":455,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時19分）謝謝主席，請李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["賴委員瑞隆：還有勞動部的許專委。"],["主席：請勞動部許專委。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，我想大家都高度關注Uber Eats跟foodpanda的收購案，我認為這個其實對臺灣有相當大的影響，因為這兩個幾乎是兩大龍頭，而且兩個差距非常的接近，而且臺灣現在又是一個高度、大量喜歡使用這些外送平台的地方，所以這樣兩個案子一旦沒有處理好，確實有可能嚴重影響到包括外送員、包括店家、包括消費者的權益，我知道現在整個案件他們送進來了，目前的進度是到哪邊？"],["李主任委員鎂：他們是5月14號送件，因為資料相當的多，我們現在針對這些文件來檢核是否文件已經齊備。"],["賴委員瑞隆：已經送進來了嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：送進來了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：有要求他們補件嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：目前還在看這些文件。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果需要補件，會請他們再補件。"],["李主任委員鎂：需要補件會請他們補件。"],["賴委員瑞隆：多久的時間要審查完畢？"],["李主任委員鎂：如果文件齊備，我們正式受理以後30天要審查完畢，必要的時候可以延長60天。"],["賴委員瑞隆：延長到60天，是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：也就是30天加60天。"],["賴委員瑞隆：就有90天，所以最快在3個月後會做出決定？"],["李主任委員鎂：要看它文件什麼時候齊備，我們通知……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們還是希望公平會針對這件事情還是要非常審慎嚴謹的處理。我要講一下，以現在來看，foodpanda市占率43%，Uber Eats是32%，反倒是小的併掉大的，你看所有的抽成幾乎都是三成多，另外一家比較小家的，反倒只有兩成多的抽成，所以這也是大家所擔憂的，因為他們現在兩個在競爭，所以還有可能維持一個比較好的狀況，而且即使在這樣狀況下都要抽成三成多，坦白講對商家的負擔其實是頗重的，如果將來兩大整併的話，或者是收購完畢的話，有沒有可能就變成了更高的抽成價格？主委有沒有這樣的擔憂？"],["李主任委員鎂：這些我們都會考慮，所以我剛才有報告，我們將來審查重點其中一個就包括競爭對手減少了，併購方的抬價能力是不是提高？這個我們也會……"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個顯然易見的，抬價能力絕對是提高的，因為這是自然而然，有一些個案還是處於虧損的狀態，它自然覺得我虧損了，當然要提高！包括兩者合併後的市占率高達七成五，這樣的比例高不高？"],["李主任委員鎂：相當高！"],["賴委員瑞隆：相當高。過去你們否決掉很多案子，不管是從鋼鐵業，到泡麵，到KTV的，大概都還沒有這麼高的比例吧？"],["李主任委員鎂：過去這些比例也是很高，但是它們到多少比例，可能還要再瞭解一下。"],["賴委員瑞隆：泡麵的不可能高啦！統一跟維力兩個整併再怎麼樣，當然是高啦，但是還有很多競爭嘛！因為泡麵也不只有這兩大嘛！鋼鐵的當然也是多啦！KTV……"],["李主任委員鎂：比較高。"],["賴委員瑞隆：錢櫃跟好樂迪是高，但是還是有很多，像中南部就有很多不是這兩個系統的。但是這兩個幾乎是獨大到獨占，兩家都非常大，如果它們兩個併完之後，我認為它們就獨占掉全部的市場了，議價能力絕對是由他們說了算！所以我認為這件事情，公平會要非常審慎處理，社會都高度關注。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：過去以來其實有非常多禁止結合的案例，我看有十幾件你們都禁止結合，即使商家掛保證、附帶各項決議，你們還是有你們的顧慮跟考量。我舉一個例子就好，包括好樂迪、錢櫃，包括統一、維力，包括燁聯、唐榮等等很多家，但是我舉一個就好了，關於當時錢櫃跟好樂迪併購的部分，你們談的最後結論是，相關不調漲價格、不減少服務等均屬短期承諾，無法解決長期而言，市場因消除主要競爭對手所產生提高價格的誘因，這樣的問題應該也存在著吧？"],["李主任委員鎂：在這裡我們都會一起考量。"],["賴委員瑞隆：包括結合後將顯著減損，就是當時的好樂迪，減損掉視聽歌唱服務市場的競爭機能，有提高價格的高度誘因與能力，消費者與競爭者並無法有效對抗抑制，具有顯著限制競爭之不利益；這應該也符合吧？"],["李主任委員鎂：整個案子我們全部評估……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我知道你們會討論，我只是再三跟主委提醒，不要討論出來的結果跟社會有相當大的一個落差，我認為它們兩個結合整併的限制競爭不利益是高於前面所談到的錢櫃跟好樂迪這些，如果連錢櫃和好樂迪你都可以去限制了，不要在3個月後做出來的決定讓社會感到相當驚訝，這件事情我認為其實是非常明確的。","再來我要請教，有關外送勞動員的爭議已經非常多了，從2019年4萬人，一單70塊；到2020年的時候，到了一單40塊，到後來變成兩單40；甚至繼續往下降。勞動部這邊有沒有進行一些相關的要求？勞動部說明一下。"],["許專門委員根魁：跟委員報告，其實針對外送員薪酬部分提出意見的時候，我們就已經在我們的平台會議上……"],["賴委員瑞隆：現在處理的狀況怎麼樣？"],["許專門委員根魁：這部分我們讓他們有充分溝通。"],["賴委員瑞隆：有來說明了嗎？"],["許專門委員根魁：前幾天我們召開平台會議的時候，他們都已經針對這個議題有來……"],["賴委員瑞隆：兩家都有來說明嗎？"],["許專門委員根魁：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：兩家都來說明，說明的結果呢？"],["許專門委員根魁：這部分是不是之後我們整理了提供給委員？"],["賴委員瑞隆：提供給我們，好不好？我也希望公平會要審慎地思考，之前反映的效果還不是那麼理會，將來他們會議的結果，我講到這個對於外送員權益的影響、對商家的影響，現在商家是抽成三到四成，未來可能更高，當然未來對消費者會產生一定的影響，這個絕對會產生聯合壟斷的行為，所以我們希望這塊要請主委那邊嚴格把關。"],["李主任委員鎂：是的，我們會召開公聽會，而且也會徵詢相關機關，包括勞動部、消保會等等，跨機關……"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，請主委一定要嚴格把關，公平會一定要嚴格把關，不要讓社會感到有很大的落差。","再來我請教一下，我們在談網路詐騙，大家現在非常痛恨網路詐騙，我認為廣告資訊透明是一件重要的事情，特別是平台業者，你不能只賺廣告費，結果卻不去抑制。我們看到很多商家，甚至很多名人，整天還要在網路澄清說這個不是我，我從來沒有理財投資，我從來沒有什麼，不斷要發這些東西，但平台業者明明就有辦法去做很好的把關，卻連資訊都不揭露，也不認真把關，然後不斷地賺這些詐騙廣告的收入，我認為就是詐騙共犯啊！當然就是詐騙共犯！你不要等到消費者去告嘛，我認為其實政府要積極作為，至少資訊的揭露一定有把關的能力嘛，整天一堆名嘴說從來沒有投資理財，整天網路上廣告跳出來推薦大家來投資理財，一看就是詐騙，平台業者怎麼會沒有判斷能力？好，你這邊該處理以外，另外也應該要資訊揭露，就是到底是誰刊登這些廣告，讓大家知道嘛！這是最基本的嘛！如果是一些奇奇怪怪的人，根本就不是當事人刊載的，那當然是假的嘛！我有提出來一個推動廣告全部實名制，揭露委託刊播者與出資者，主委同意這樣的看法嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：委員，您的這個提案，我們非常重視，我也認為廣告主應該是可以被找得到，這是很重要的。針對這個議題，我們也去拜訪很多相關業者，第一個，如果這個廣告主有委託廣告代理業，通常是找得到這個廣告主，現在問題就是這些廣告主自己在平台上刊登廣告，沒有透過廣告代理……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我說揭露嘛！至少揭露嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：所以平台這部分如何讓它揭露這些廣告主，我會後會跟委員再做說明。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望朝這個方向來推動，我的案子一直被國民黨在程序委員會退回，我不知道為什麼會被退回，這件事情難道不能進到委員會來討論嗎？我們反詐騙嘛！我們就是要遏阻這樣的行為，為什麼這樣的案子要被退回？有任何意見，就進到委員會來討論嘛！為什麼連討論都不讓討論，這不是黑箱國會，什麼是黑箱國會？好不好？謝謝主委，這整個案件請再幫我整個瞭解一下，我們來努力啦！"],["李主任委員鎂：我會後跟委員做報告。"],["賴委員瑞隆：減少詐騙的發生，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員。","接下來我們請邱志偉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-13","speakers":["邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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{\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 547.892, \"end\": 547.932, \"score\": 0.503}, {\"word\": \"黑\", \"start\": 547.932, \"end\": 547.952, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"箱\", \"start\": 547.952, \"end\": 547.972, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"賴\"}, {\"word\": \"瑞\", \"start\": 552.616, \"end\": 552.716, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"隆\", \"start\": 552.716, \"end\": 552.736, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,106 --> 00:00:09,698\n賴瑞隆委員發言謝謝主席請李主委還有另外那個勞動部的許專委來請勞動部許專委\n\n2\n00:00:17,887 --> 00:00:37,635\n主委我想大家都高度關注這個UberEats跟Foodpanda的這個收購案那我認為這個其實對台灣有相當大的一個影響因為這兩個幾乎是兩大龍頭而且兩個其實是差距非常的接近而且台灣現在又是一個高度的\n\n3\n00:00:38,655 --> 00:00:54,334\n大量喜歡使用這些外送平台的一個所以這樣兩個案子一旦沒有處理好確實有可能嚴重影響到外送員包括店家包括消費者的權益我知道現在整個案件他們送進來了目前的進度是到哪邊\n\n4\n00:00:57,685 --> 00:01:16,132\n五、四號送件,那因為資料相當的多,我們現在在針對這些文件來檢核是否文件已經齊備。那已經送進來了嗎?送進來了,五月十四號。有交叉要求他們補件嗎?目前還在看這些文件。所以還在看文件,那如果需要補件會請他們補件?需要補件會請他們補件。那多久的時間要審查完畢?\n\n5\n00:01:16,892 --> 00:01:31,714\n如果文件齊備我們正式受理以後30天要審查完畢必要的時候可以延長60天延長到60天是不是也就是30天加60天90天所以最快在三個月後會做出決定\n\n6\n00:01:31,974 --> 00:01:32,054\n賴瑞隆\n\n7\n00:01:50,916 --> 00:01:51,897\n（一（本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具（\n\n8\n00:02:12,728 --> 00:02:13,489\n主委有沒有這樣的擔憂?\n\n9\n00:02:22,463 --> 00:02:24,264\n兩者合併後的市占率高達7乘5,這樣的比例高不高?相當高\n\n10\n00:02:50,447 --> 00:02:50,587\n賴瑞隆\n\n11\n00:03:19,478 --> 00:03:42,703\n前櫃跟好樂迪相高但是還是有很多像中南部就很多不是這兩個系統的所以我說但是這兩個幾乎是獨大到獨佔兩家都非常的大如果他們兩個併完之後我認為他們就獨佔掉全部的市場了所以溢價能力絕對是由他們說了算啦所以我認為這件事情公平要非常的審慎來做處理社會都高度在關注\n\n12\n00:03:43,303 --> 00:04:04,811\n那過去以來其實有非常多禁止結合的案例啦我看有十幾件你們禁止結合即使商家掛保證附帶各項的舉例你們還是有你們的顧慮跟考量所以換我舉一個就好了包括好樂迪、錢櫃、包括統一、維利包括葉蓮、唐榮等等很多家但是我舉一個就好了你們關於這個當時錢櫃跟好樂迪的這個併購的部分\n\n13\n00:04:09,173 --> 00:04:23,082\n你們談的最後,你們的結論怎樣?相關不漲、調漲價格、不減少服務等軍俗短期承諾無法解決長期而言,市場因消除主要競爭對手所產生提高價格的誘因。這樣的問題應該也存在著吧?\n\n14\n00:04:24,142 --> 00:04:47,461\n在這裡我們都會一起考量。包括結合後將顯著減損,所以它是減損要視聽歌唱服務市場的競爭機能有提高價格的高度誘因與能力,消費者與競爭者並無法有效對抗意志,具有顯著限制競爭之不利益。這應該也符合吧?\n\n15\n00:04:51,367 --> 00:05:08,569\n對,我知道你們會討論,我只是再三的跟主委提醒,不要討論出來的結果跟社會有相當大的一個落差。我認為他們兩個的結合整併了這些的這個競爭,限制競爭的不利益,我認為它是高於前面所談到的這些前櫃跟好樂的敵人。\n\n16\n00:05:08,849 --> 00:05:29,326\n那如果連錢貸勞力你都可以去限制了不要在三個月後做出來這樣決定讓大家社會感到相當驚訝我希望這些事情我認為其實是非常的明確的那再來我要請教外送勞動員的爭議已經非常的多了從2019年4萬人一單70塊到2020年的時候到了一單40塊到後來變成兩單40甚至自己往下降勞動部這邊有沒有去進行一些相關的要求\n\n17\n00:05:37,779 --> 00:05:39,099\n兩家都有來說明嗎?兩家都來說明,說明的結果呢?\n\n18\n00:06:08,915 --> 00:06:32,340\n這個部分我們是不是之後我們整理以後提供給委員?提供給我們了好不好?我也希望公平會要審慎的思考這個之前的時候這個反應的效果還不是那麼的理會那這些那將來他們所回憶的這個結果我講到了這個對於外送員的權益的影響對商家的影響商家抽成三到四成未來可能會更高\n\n19\n00:06:33,906 --> 00:06:55,178\n當然未來對消費者會產生一定的影響這個絕對會產生聯合壟斷的行為的部分所以我們希望這一塊要請主委那邊要來嚴格把關我們會召開公聽會而且會徵詢相關機關勞動部消保會等等請主委一定要嚴格把關公平一定要嚴格把關不要讓社會感到有很大的一個落差\n\n20\n00:06:55,738 --> 00:07:12,723\n再要請教一下我們其實在談網路詐騙大家現在非常痛恨網路詐騙那我認為其實廣告資訊透明這是一定重要的事情特別是平台業者你不能只賺廣告費結果你卻不去益智我們已經看到很多的商家\n\n21\n00:07:13,303 --> 00:07:36,880\n甚至很多的名人整天還要網路陳情說這個不是我我從來沒有理財投資我從來沒有什麼不斷要發這些東西但平台業者明明就有辦法去做很好的一個把關你連資訊都不揭露也不認真把關然後不斷的賺這些的詐騙的廣告的收入我認為就是詐騙共犯啊當然就是詐騙共犯你不要等到消費者去告嘛我認為其實政府要積極的作為對這些的\n\n22\n00:07:38,221 --> 00:07:59,936\n至少資訊的揭露一定有把關能力嘛整天一堆的名嘴然後說我從來就沒有投資理財整天網路上出來廣告跳出來說推薦大家來投資理財一看就是詐騙那平台業者怎麼會沒有判斷能力好那你這邊該處理以外你另外你應該也要資訊來揭露嘛就是讓到底誰刊登這些廣告讓大家知道嘛\n\n23\n00:08:00,196 --> 00:08:00,977\n委員您的提案我們非常重視,我也認為廣告主應該是處於可以被\n\n24\n00:08:20,931 --> 00:08:20,971\n賴瑞隆\n\n25\n00:08:41,634 --> 00:09:07,972\n廣告代理所以我說揭露嘛至少揭露嘛所以平台這部分如何讓他揭露這些廣告主我會後會跟委員再做說好不好我希望朝這個方向來推動啦那我的案子一直被國民黨在程序委員會退出我不知道為什麼要退出啦會被退回這件事情難道不能進到委員會來做討論嗎連這樣的詐騙我們反詐騙嘛我們就是要二合組這樣行為那為什麼這樣的案子要被退回有任何意見進到委員會來做討論嗎為什麼連討論都不可以討論這不是黑箱國會什麼是黑箱國會\n\n26\n00:09:12,616 --> 00:09:12,736\n賴瑞隆\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n106\t9698\t賴瑞隆委員發言謝謝主席請李主委還有另外那個勞動部的許專委來請勞動部許專委\n17887\t37635\t主委我想大家都高度關注這個Uber Eats跟Foodpanda的這個收購案那我認為這個其實對台灣有相當大的一個影響因為這兩個幾乎是兩大龍頭而且兩個其實是差距非常的接近而且台灣現在又是一個高度的\n38655\t54334\t大量喜歡使用這些外送平台的一個所以這樣兩個案子一旦沒有處理好確實有可能嚴重影響到外送員包括店家包括消費者的權益我知道現在整個案件他們送進來了目前的進度是到哪邊\n57685\t76132\t五、四號送件,那因為資料相當的多,我們現在在針對這些文件來檢核是否文件已經齊備。那已經送進來了嗎?送進來了,五月十四號。有交叉要求他們補件嗎?目前還在看這些文件。所以還在看文件,那如果需要補件會請他們補件?需要補件會請他們補件。那多久的時間要審查完畢?\n76892\t91714\t如果文件齊備我們正式受理以後30天要審查完畢必要的時候可以延長60天延長到60天是不是也就是30天加60天90天所以最快在三個月後會做出決定\n91974\t92054\t賴瑞隆\n110916\t111897\t（一（本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具（\n132728\t133489\t主委有沒有這樣的擔憂?\n142463\t144264\t兩者合併後的市占率高達7乘5,這樣的比例高不高?相當高\n170447\t170587\t賴瑞隆\n199478\t222703\t前櫃跟好樂迪相高但是還是有很多像中南部就很多不是這兩個系統的所以我說但是這兩個幾乎是獨大到獨佔兩家都非常的大如果他們兩個併完之後我認為他們就獨佔掉全部的市場了所以溢價能力絕對是由他們說了算啦所以我認為這件事情公平要非常的審慎來做處理社會都高度在關注\n223303\t244811\t那過去以來其實有非常多禁止結合的案例啦我看有十幾件你們禁止結合即使商家掛保證附帶各項的舉例你們還是有你們的顧慮跟考量所以換我舉一個就好了包括好樂迪、錢櫃、包括統一、維利包括葉蓮、唐榮等等很多家但是我舉一個就好了你們關於這個當時錢櫃跟好樂迪的這個併購的部分\n249173\t263082\t你們談的最後,你們的結論怎樣?相關不漲、調漲價格、不減少服務等軍俗短期承諾無法解決長期而言,市場因消除主要競爭對手所產生提高價格的誘因。這樣的問題應該也存在著吧?\n264142\t287461\t在這裡我們都會一起考量。包括結合後將顯著減損,所以它是減損要視聽歌唱服務市場的競爭機能有提高價格的高度誘因與能力,消費者與競爭者並無法有效對抗意志,具有顯著限制競爭之不利益。這應該也符合吧?\n291367\t308569\t對,我知道你們會討論,我只是再三的跟主委提醒,不要討論出來的結果跟社會有相當大的一個落差。我認為他們兩個的結合整併了這些的這個競爭,限制競爭的不利益,我認為它是高於前面所談到的這些前櫃跟好樂的敵人。\n308849\t329326\t那如果連錢貸勞力你都可以去限制了不要在三個月後做出來這樣決定讓大家社會感到相當驚訝我希望這些事情我認為其實是非常的明確的那再來我要請教外送勞動員的爭議已經非常的多了從2019年4萬人一單70塊到2020年的時候到了一單40塊到後來變成兩單40甚至自己往下降勞動部這邊有沒有去進行一些相關的要求\n337779\t339099\t兩家都有來說明嗎?兩家都來說明,說明的結果呢?\n368915\t392340\t這個部分我們是不是之後我們整理以後提供給委員?提供給我們了好不好?我也希望公平會要審慎的思考這個之前的時候這個反應的效果還不是那麼的理會那這些那將來他們所回憶的這個結果我講到了這個對於外送員的權益的影響對商家的影響商家抽成三到四成未來可能會更高\n393906\t415178\t當然未來對消費者會產生一定的影響這個絕對會產生聯合壟斷的行為的部分所以我們希望這一塊要請主委那邊要來嚴格把關我們會召開公聽會而且會徵詢相關機關勞動部消保會等等請主委一定要嚴格把關公平一定要嚴格把關不要讓社會感到有很大的一個落差\n415738\t432723\t再要請教一下我們其實在談網路詐騙大家現在非常痛恨網路詐騙那我認為其實廣告資訊透明這是一定重要的事情特別是平台業者你不能只賺廣告費結果你卻不去益智我們已經看到很多的商家\n433303\t456880\t甚至很多的名人整天還要網路陳情說這個不是我我從來沒有理財投資我從來沒有什麼不斷要發這些東西但平台業者明明就有辦法去做很好的一個把關你連資訊都不揭露也不認真把關然後不斷的賺這些的詐騙的廣告的收入我認為就是詐騙共犯啊當然就是詐騙共犯你不要等到消費者去告嘛我認為其實政府要積極的作為對這些的\n458221\t479936\t至少資訊的揭露一定有把關能力嘛整天一堆的名嘴然後說我從來就沒有投資理財整天網路上出來廣告跳出來說推薦大家來投資理財一看就是詐騙那平台業者怎麼會沒有判斷能力好那你這邊該處理以外你另外你應該也要資訊來揭露嘛就是讓到底誰刊登這些廣告讓大家知道嘛\n480196\t480977\t委員您的提案我們非常重視,我也認為廣告主應該是處於可以被\n500931\t500971\t賴瑞隆\n521634\t547972\t廣告代理所以我說揭露嘛至少揭露嘛所以平台這部分如何讓他揭露這些廣告主我會後會跟委員再做說好不好我希望朝這個方向來推動啦那我的案子一直被國民黨在程序委員會退出我不知道為什麼要退出啦會被退回這件事情難道不能進到委員會來做討論嗎連這樣的詐騙我們反詐騙嘛我們就是要二合組這樣行為那為什麼這樣的案子要被退回有任何意見進到委員會來做討論嗎為什麼連討論都不可以討論這不是黑箱國會什麼是黑箱國會\n552616\t552736\t賴瑞隆\n","txt":"賴瑞隆委員發言謝謝主席請李主委還有另外那個勞動部的許專委來請勞動部許專委\n主委我想大家都高度關注這個Uber Eats跟Foodpanda的這個收購案那我認為這個其實對台灣有相當大的一個影響因為這兩個幾乎是兩大龍頭而且兩個其實是差距非常的接近而且台灣現在又是一個高度的\n大量喜歡使用這些外送平台的一個所以這樣兩個案子一旦沒有處理好確實有可能嚴重影響到外送員包括店家包括消費者的權益我知道現在整個案件他們送進來了目前的進度是到哪邊\n五、四號送件,那因為資料相當的多,我們現在在針對這些文件來檢核是否文件已經齊備。那已經送進來了嗎?送進來了,五月十四號。有交叉要求他們補件嗎?目前還在看這些文件。所以還在看文件,那如果需要補件會請他們補件?需要補件會請他們補件。那多久的時間要審查完畢?\n如果文件齊備我們正式受理以後30天要審查完畢必要的時候可以延長60天延長到60天是不是也就是30天加60天90天所以最快在三個月後會做出決定\n賴瑞隆\n（一（本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具（\n主委有沒有這樣的擔憂?\n兩者合併後的市占率高達7乘5,這樣的比例高不高?相當高\n賴瑞隆\n前櫃跟好樂迪相高但是還是有很多像中南部就很多不是這兩個系統的所以我說但是這兩個幾乎是獨大到獨佔兩家都非常的大如果他們兩個併完之後我認為他們就獨佔掉全部的市場了所以溢價能力絕對是由他們說了算啦所以我認為這件事情公平要非常的審慎來做處理社會都高度在關注\n那過去以來其實有非常多禁止結合的案例啦我看有十幾件你們禁止結合即使商家掛保證附帶各項的舉例你們還是有你們的顧慮跟考量所以換我舉一個就好了包括好樂迪、錢櫃、包括統一、維利包括葉蓮、唐榮等等很多家但是我舉一個就好了你們關於這個當時錢櫃跟好樂迪的這個併購的部分\n你們談的最後,你們的結論怎樣?相關不漲、調漲價格、不減少服務等軍俗短期承諾無法解決長期而言,市場因消除主要競爭對手所產生提高價格的誘因。這樣的問題應該也存在著吧?\n在這裡我們都會一起考量。包括結合後將顯著減損,所以它是減損要視聽歌唱服務市場的競爭機能有提高價格的高度誘因與能力,消費者與競爭者並無法有效對抗意志,具有顯著限制競爭之不利益。這應該也符合吧?\n對,我知道你們會討論,我只是再三的跟主委提醒,不要討論出來的結果跟社會有相當大的一個落差。我認為他們兩個的結合整併了這些的這個競爭,限制競爭的不利益,我認為它是高於前面所談到的這些前櫃跟好樂的敵人。\n那如果連錢貸勞力你都可以去限制了不要在三個月後做出來這樣決定讓大家社會感到相當驚訝我希望這些事情我認為其實是非常的明確的那再來我要請教外送勞動員的爭議已經非常的多了從2019年4萬人一單70塊到2020年的時候到了一單40塊到後來變成兩單40甚至自己往下降勞動部這邊有沒有去進行一些相關的要求\n兩家都有來說明嗎?兩家都來說明,說明的結果呢?\n這個部分我們是不是之後我們整理以後提供給委員?提供給我們了好不好?我也希望公平會要審慎的思考這個之前的時候這個反應的效果還不是那麼的理會那這些那將來他們所回憶的這個結果我講到了這個對於外送員的權益的影響對商家的影響商家抽成三到四成未來可能會更高\n當然未來對消費者會產生一定的影響這個絕對會產生聯合壟斷的行為的部分所以我們希望這一塊要請主委那邊要來嚴格把關我們會召開公聽會而且會徵詢相關機關勞動部消保會等等請主委一定要嚴格把關公平一定要嚴格把關不要讓社會感到有很大的一個落差\n再要請教一下我們其實在談網路詐騙大家現在非常痛恨網路詐騙那我認為其實廣告資訊透明這是一定重要的事情特別是平台業者你不能只賺廣告費結果你卻不去益智我們已經看到很多的商家\n甚至很多的名人整天還要網路陳情說這個不是我我從來沒有理財投資我從來沒有什麼不斷要發這些東西但平台業者明明就有辦法去做很好的一個把關你連資訊都不揭露也不認真把關然後不斷的賺這些的詐騙的廣告的收入我認為就是詐騙共犯啊當然就是詐騙共犯你不要等到消費者去告嘛我認為其實政府要積極的作為對這些的\n至少資訊的揭露一定有把關能力嘛整天一堆的名嘴然後說我從來就沒有投資理財整天網路上出來廣告跳出來說推薦大家來投資理財一看就是詐騙那平台業者怎麼會沒有判斷能力好那你這邊該處理以外你另外你應該也要資訊來揭露嘛就是讓到底誰刊登這些廣告讓大家知道嘛\n委員您的提案我們非常重視,我也認為廣告主應該是處於可以被\n賴瑞隆\n廣告代理所以我說揭露嘛至少揭露嘛所以平台這部分如何讓他揭露這些廣告主我會後會跟委員再做說好不好我希望朝這個方向來推動啦那我的案子一直被國民黨在程序委員會退出我不知道為什麼要退出啦會被退回這件事情難道不能進到委員會來做討論嗎連這樣的詐騙我們反詐騙嘛我們就是要二合組這樣行為那為什麼這樣的案子要被退回有任何意見進到委員會來做討論嗎為什麼連討論都不可以討論這不是黑箱國會什麼是黑箱國會\n賴瑞隆\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.106 --> 00:09.698\n賴瑞隆委員發言謝謝主席請李主委還有另外那個勞動部的許專委來請勞動部許專委\n\n00:17.887 --> 00:37.635\n主委我想大家都高度關注這個UberEats跟Foodpanda的這個收購案那我認為這個其實對台灣有相當大的一個影響因為這兩個幾乎是兩大龍頭而且兩個其實是差距非常的接近而且台灣現在又是一個高度的\n\n00:38.655 --> 00:54.334\n大量喜歡使用這些外送平台的一個所以這樣兩個案子一旦沒有處理好確實有可能嚴重影響到外送員包括店家包括消費者的權益我知道現在整個案件他們送進來了目前的進度是到哪邊\n\n00:57.685 --> 01:16.132\n五、四號送件,那因為資料相當的多,我們現在在針對這些文件來檢核是否文件已經齊備。那已經送進來了嗎?送進來了,五月十四號。有交叉要求他們補件嗎?目前還在看這些文件。所以還在看文件,那如果需要補件會請他們補件?需要補件會請他們補件。那多久的時間要審查完畢?\n\n01:16.892 --> 01:31.714\n如果文件齊備我們正式受理以後30天要審查完畢必要的時候可以延長60天延長到60天是不是也就是30天加60天90天所以最快在三個月後會做出決定\n\n01:31.974 --> 01:32.054\n賴瑞隆\n\n01:50.916 --> 01:51.897\n（一（本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具（\n\n02:12.728 --> 02:13.489\n主委有沒有這樣的擔憂?\n\n02:22.463 --> 02:24.264\n兩者合併後的市占率高達7乘5,這樣的比例高不高?相當高\n\n02:50.447 --> 02:50.587\n賴瑞隆\n\n03:19.478 --> 03:42.703\n前櫃跟好樂迪相高但是還是有很多像中南部就很多不是這兩個系統的所以我說但是這兩個幾乎是獨大到獨佔兩家都非常的大如果他們兩個併完之後我認為他們就獨佔掉全部的市場了所以溢價能力絕對是由他們說了算啦所以我認為這件事情公平要非常的審慎來做處理社會都高度在關注\n\n03:43.303 --> 04:04.811\n那過去以來其實有非常多禁止結合的案例啦我看有十幾件你們禁止結合即使商家掛保證附帶各項的舉例你們還是有你們的顧慮跟考量所以換我舉一個就好了包括好樂迪、錢櫃、包括統一、維利包括葉蓮、唐榮等等很多家但是我舉一個就好了你們關於這個當時錢櫃跟好樂迪的這個併購的部分\n\n04:09.173 --> 04:23.082\n你們談的最後,你們的結論怎樣?相關不漲、調漲價格、不減少服務等軍俗短期承諾無法解決長期而言,市場因消除主要競爭對手所產生提高價格的誘因。這樣的問題應該也存在著吧?\n\n04:24.142 --> 04:47.461\n在這裡我們都會一起考量。包括結合後將顯著減損,所以它是減損要視聽歌唱服務市場的競爭機能有提高價格的高度誘因與能力,消費者與競爭者並無法有效對抗意志,具有顯著限制競爭之不利益。這應該也符合吧?\n\n04:51.367 --> 05:08.569\n對,我知道你們會討論,我只是再三的跟主委提醒,不要討論出來的結果跟社會有相當大的一個落差。我認為他們兩個的結合整併了這些的這個競爭,限制競爭的不利益,我認為它是高於前面所談到的這些前櫃跟好樂的敵人。\n\n05:08.849 --> 05:29.326\n那如果連錢貸勞力你都可以去限制了不要在三個月後做出來這樣決定讓大家社會感到相當驚訝我希望這些事情我認為其實是非常的明確的那再來我要請教外送勞動員的爭議已經非常的多了從2019年4萬人一單70塊到2020年的時候到了一單40塊到後來變成兩單40甚至自己往下降勞動部這邊有沒有去進行一些相關的要求\n\n05:37.779 --> 05:39.099\n兩家都有來說明嗎?兩家都來說明,說明的結果呢?\n\n06:08.915 --> 06:32.340\n這個部分我們是不是之後我們整理以後提供給委員?提供給我們了好不好?我也希望公平會要審慎的思考這個之前的時候這個反應的效果還不是那麼的理會那這些那將來他們所回憶的這個結果我講到了這個對於外送員的權益的影響對商家的影響商家抽成三到四成未來可能會更高\n\n06:33.906 --> 06:55.178\n當然未來對消費者會產生一定的影響這個絕對會產生聯合壟斷的行為的部分所以我們希望這一塊要請主委那邊要來嚴格把關我們會召開公聽會而且會徵詢相關機關勞動部消保會等等請主委一定要嚴格把關公平一定要嚴格把關不要讓社會感到有很大的一個落差\n\n06:55.738 --> 07:12.723\n再要請教一下我們其實在談網路詐騙大家現在非常痛恨網路詐騙那我認為其實廣告資訊透明這是一定重要的事情特別是平台業者你不能只賺廣告費結果你卻不去益智我們已經看到很多的商家\n\n07:13.303 --> 07:36.880\n甚至很多的名人整天還要網路陳情說這個不是我我從來沒有理財投資我從來沒有什麼不斷要發這些東西但平台業者明明就有辦法去做很好的一個把關你連資訊都不揭露也不認真把關然後不斷的賺這些的詐騙的廣告的收入我認為就是詐騙共犯啊當然就是詐騙共犯你不要等到消費者去告嘛我認為其實政府要積極的作為對這些的\n\n07:38.221 --> 07:59.936\n至少資訊的揭露一定有把關能力嘛整天一堆的名嘴然後說我從來就沒有投資理財整天網路上出來廣告跳出來說推薦大家來投資理財一看就是詐騙那平台業者怎麼會沒有判斷能力好那你這邊該處理以外你另外你應該也要資訊來揭露嘛就是讓到底誰刊登這些廣告讓大家知道嘛\n\n08:00.196 --> 08:00.977\n委員您的提案我們非常重視,我也認為廣告主應該是處於可以被\n\n08:20.931 --> 08:20.971\n賴瑞隆\n\n08:41.634 --> 09:07.972\n廣告代理所以我說揭露嘛至少揭露嘛所以平台這部分如何讓他揭露這些廣告主我會後會跟委員再做說好不好我希望朝這個方向來推動啦那我的案子一直被國民黨在程序委員會退出我不知道為什麼要退出啦會被退回這件事情難道不能進到委員會來做討論嗎連這樣的詐騙我們反詐騙嘛我們就是要二合組這樣行為那為什麼這樣的案子要被退回有任何意見進到委員會來做討論嗎為什麼連討論都不可以討論這不是黑箱國會什麼是黑箱國會\n\n09:12.616 --> 09:12.736\n賴瑞隆\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.106,"end":9.698,"text":"賴瑞隆委員發言謝謝主席請李主委還有另外那個勞動部的許專委來請勞動部許專委"},{"start":17.887,"end":37.635,"text":"主委我想大家都高度關注這個Uber Eats跟Foodpanda的這個收購案那我認為這個其實對台灣有相當大的一個影響因為這兩個幾乎是兩大龍頭而且兩個其實是差距非常的接近而且台灣現在又是一個高度的"},{"start":38.655,"end":54.334,"text":"大量喜歡使用這些外送平台的一個所以這樣兩個案子一旦沒有處理好確實有可能嚴重影響到外送員包括店家包括消費者的權益我知道現在整個案件他們送進來了目前的進度是到哪邊"},{"start":57.685,"end":76.132,"text":"五、四號送件,那因為資料相當的多,我們現在在針對這些文件來檢核是否文件已經齊備。那已經送進來了嗎?送進來了,五月十四號。有交叉要求他們補件嗎?目前還在看這些文件。所以還在看文件,那如果需要補件會請他們補件?需要補件會請他們補件。那多久的時間要審查完畢?"},{"start":76.892,"end":91.714,"text":"如果文件齊備我們正式受理以後30天要審查完畢必要的時候可以延長60天延長到60天是不是也就是30天加60天90天所以最快在三個月後會做出決定"},{"start":91.974,"end":92.054,"text":"賴瑞隆"},{"start":110.916,"end":111.897,"text":"（一（本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具（"},{"start":132.728,"end":133.489,"text":"主委有沒有這樣的擔憂?"},{"start":142.463,"end":144.264,"text":"兩者合併後的市占率高達7乘5,這樣的比例高不高?相當高"},{"start":170.447,"end":170.587,"text":"賴瑞隆"},{"start":199.478,"end":222.703,"text":"前櫃跟好樂迪相高但是還是有很多像中南部就很多不是這兩個系統的所以我說但是這兩個幾乎是獨大到獨佔兩家都非常的大如果他們兩個併完之後我認為他們就獨佔掉全部的市場了所以溢價能力絕對是由他們說了算啦所以我認為這件事情公平要非常的審慎來做處理社會都高度在關注"},{"start":223.303,"end":244.811,"text":"那過去以來其實有非常多禁止結合的案例啦我看有十幾件你們禁止結合即使商家掛保證附帶各項的舉例你們還是有你們的顧慮跟考量所以換我舉一個就好了包括好樂迪、錢櫃、包括統一、維利包括葉蓮、唐榮等等很多家但是我舉一個就好了你們關於這個當時錢櫃跟好樂迪的這個併購的部分"},{"start":249.173,"end":263.082,"text":"你們談的最後,你們的結論怎樣?相關不漲、調漲價格、不減少服務等軍俗短期承諾無法解決長期而言,市場因消除主要競爭對手所產生提高價格的誘因。這樣的問題應該也存在著吧?"},{"start":264.142,"end":287.461,"text":"在這裡我們都會一起考量。包括結合後將顯著減損,所以它是減損要視聽歌唱服務市場的競爭機能有提高價格的高度誘因與能力,消費者與競爭者並無法有效對抗意志,具有顯著限制競爭之不利益。這應該也符合吧?"},{"start":291.367,"end":308.569,"text":"對,我知道你們會討論,我只是再三的跟主委提醒,不要討論出來的結果跟社會有相當大的一個落差。我認為他們兩個的結合整併了這些的這個競爭,限制競爭的不利益,我認為它是高於前面所談到的這些前櫃跟好樂的敵人。"},{"start":308.849,"end":329.326,"text":"那如果連錢貸勞力你都可以去限制了不要在三個月後做出來這樣決定讓大家社會感到相當驚訝我希望這些事情我認為其實是非常的明確的那再來我要請教外送勞動員的爭議已經非常的多了從2019年4萬人一單70塊到2020年的時候到了一單40塊到後來變成兩單40甚至自己往下降勞動部這邊有沒有去進行一些相關的要求"},{"start":337.779,"end":339.099,"text":"兩家都有來說明嗎?兩家都來說明,說明的結果呢?"},{"start":368.915,"end":392.34,"text":"這個部分我們是不是之後我們整理以後提供給委員?提供給我們了好不好?我也希望公平會要審慎的思考這個之前的時候這個反應的效果還不是那麼的理會那這些那將來他們所回憶的這個結果我講到了這個對於外送員的權益的影響對商家的影響商家抽成三到四成未來可能會更高"},{"start":393.906,"end":415.178,"text":"當然未來對消費者會產生一定的影響這個絕對會產生聯合壟斷的行為的部分所以我們希望這一塊要請主委那邊要來嚴格把關我們會召開公聽會而且會徵詢相關機關勞動部消保會等等請主委一定要嚴格把關公平一定要嚴格把關不要讓社會感到有很大的一個落差"},{"start":415.738,"end":432.723,"text":"再要請教一下我們其實在談網路詐騙大家現在非常痛恨網路詐騙那我認為其實廣告資訊透明這是一定重要的事情特別是平台業者你不能只賺廣告費結果你卻不去益智我們已經看到很多的商家"},{"start":433.303,"end":456.88,"text":"甚至很多的名人整天還要網路陳情說這個不是我我從來沒有理財投資我從來沒有什麼不斷要發這些東西但平台業者明明就有辦法去做很好的一個把關你連資訊都不揭露也不認真把關然後不斷的賺這些的詐騙的廣告的收入我認為就是詐騙共犯啊當然就是詐騙共犯你不要等到消費者去告嘛我認為其實政府要積極的作為對這些的"},{"start":458.221,"end":479.936,"text":"至少資訊的揭露一定有把關能力嘛整天一堆的名嘴然後說我從來就沒有投資理財整天網路上出來廣告跳出來說推薦大家來投資理財一看就是詐騙那平台業者怎麼會沒有判斷能力好那你這邊該處理以外你另外你應該也要資訊來揭露嘛就是讓到底誰刊登這些廣告讓大家知道嘛"},{"start":480.196,"end":480.977,"text":"委員您的提案我們非常重視,我也認為廣告主應該是處於可以被"},{"start":500.931,"end":500.971,"text":"賴瑞隆"},{"start":521.634,"end":547.972,"text":"廣告代理所以我說揭露嘛至少揭露嘛所以平台這部分如何讓他揭露這些廣告主我會後會跟委員再做說好不好我希望朝這個方向來推動啦那我的案子一直被國民黨在程序委員會退出我不知道為什麼要退出啦會被退回這件事情難道不能進到委員會來做討論嗎連這樣的詐騙我們反詐騙嘛我們就是要二合組這樣行為那為什麼這樣的案子要被退回有任何意見進到委員會來做討論嗎為什麼連討論都不可以討論這不是黑箱國會什麼是黑箱國會"},{"start":552.616,"end":552.736,"text":"賴瑞隆"}]}}}}