{"id":152893,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152893","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453c132ab06e5a438b8bde51848baade829d34e896d657c5e83538125fad269566d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:25:31 - 10:39:53","影片長度":"00:14:22","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共4案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處主管預算凍結項目共1案。\n三、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第三案（一）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查；（四）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":862,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":25,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-25"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T10:39:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T10:25:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":830,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時25分）謝謝召委，請秘書長。"],["主席：請周秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：林委員好。"],["林委員思銘：秘書長，針對剛才召委說要把你趕下台，這個我聽了非常shock、非常震驚。其實鍾佳濱委員，過去我們在第10屆大家也是同事，我的感受上對於他這個人，我覺得他還蠻穩健理性的，但是剛才說要把你從主席台趕下來，我覺得蠻震驚的，不像過去讓我感覺的他還是蠻理性、作風蠻溫文儒雅的一位立法委員。在我們委員會質詢時對秘書長有這樣子的言詞，其實我覺得很不恰當。所以召委，我不想說讓我對你的觀感有所改變，我還是希望大家理性問政，而不要涉及到是說：「秘書長，我要把你趕下台。」怎麼趕？暴力嗎？你可以嘴巴上講，很多委員在質詢包括行政官員，我們也會說：「你下台、你下台。」大家言詞交鋒，但如果要用這種暴力的行為，我想這個絕對要受到譴責，很不恰當。","回歸正題，秘書長，星期二院會發生一件事情，我們立法委員在審查國會改革五法的時候，有好幾位立委都被在媒體台上面的某位委員的國會助理詹守忠，用他的不曉得是手機、攝影機還是相機去拍攝，刻意拍攝我們的委員，去窺視委員手機的內容。你看一下照片，有好幾位委員，包含陳永康、賴士葆，還有高金素梅、陳菁徽委員，故意對著委員的手機，窺視委員的手機正在看什麼。請問秘書長，當天委員有跟您提出台上有人正在偷拍他，當時你怎麼處理？"],["周秘書長萬來：當時王委員來台上跟我說，我立即就請他們去處理。可能是某個委員的助理在……"],["林委員思銘：叫詹守忠。"],["周秘書長萬來：我們是有請他……因為他有證件，助理有證件。當然也不可能在場上做攝影的動作，所以我們請他離場。"],["林委員思銘：是。他做這樣的一個動作，而且po到他的臉書上面意圖散布。請問秘書長，這種行為是不是構成刑法上的罪責？"],["周秘書長萬來：我只在行政上對於議場的管理會去加強，就是對於這個的處理，至於有沒有涉及刑責，很抱歉，我也不太瞭解。"],["林委員思銘：那我們請法務部，法務部次長，我也大概讓你看一下，刑法的妨害秘密罪章規定得很清楚，不得窺視、偷拍人家非公開的活動。那您認為這位助理在我們的媒體區上面，從台上拍攝我們委員，他不是拍攝委員整個公開活動，而是針對他的手機內容，拉近距離去偷拍、去窺視他的手機內容，請問這樣符不符合刑法第三百十五條之一的「無故利用工具或設備窺視、竊聽他人非公開之活動、言論、談話或身體隱私部位」？構不構成這條罪？"],["徐次長錫祥：關於這個案子，從委員出示的畫面我不太能夠掌握他到底看得到、看不到委員的談話內容。就這樣一個畫面，如果只是一個人坐在那裡看手機，這樣的動作……"],["林委員思銘：其實有好幾張相片，都可以看得出來啦！"],["徐次長錫祥：這樣子看……"],["林委員思銘：所以這個部分……"],["徐次長錫祥：委員，目前我看那個照片是看不太到……"],["林委員思銘：因為它有點比較小。"],["徐次長錫祥：對、對、對。如果看起來只是一個人在那裡滑手機，這個動作……"],["林委員思銘：好，沒關係，既然你看不清楚，我體諒你啦！"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["林委員思銘：但是其實從他這個行為舉止裡面，我們看得出來其實他是故意要去窺視我們國民黨籍的立法委員現在手機到底在談論什麼、在看什麼。他的意圖非常清楚，他是無故以照相的方式來竊錄、竊看他人的言論還有談話，這其實是滿清楚的。所以這個部分我就在這邊提告發。這位詹守忠先生，希望你們趕快予以偵辦。因為秘書長很客氣，沒有把他移送法辦，其實這已經涉及相關的犯罪嫌疑，所以我在這邊正式告發這位詹守忠先生涉及違反刑法第三百十五條之一的妨害秘密罪。"],["徐次長錫祥：對，這是一個告訴乃論的罪，就是被拍攝的委員要提出告訴。"],["林委員思銘：好，我們會請被拍攝的委員趕快提告。"],["徐次長錫祥：檢察官就會依法來調查。"],["林委員思銘：好，謝謝。","請問秘書長還有什麼要補充的？"],["周秘書長萬來：跟林委員補充一下，我們當時有依照規定請他離場。"],["林委員思銘：有離場嘛！就是把他趕出場了。","次長，我再請問一下，針對這次行政院版的洗錢防制法修正草案第二條有關洗錢的定義，第一款將原本的「意圖掩飾或隱匿特定犯罪所得來源，或使他人逃避刑事追訴，而移轉或變更特定犯罪所得」中的「意圖」二字刪除，請問次長，刪除的原因是什麼？"],["徐次長錫祥：因為我們是參照德國立法例，德國刑法第二百六十一條對於掩飾型洗錢犯罪的定性是採所謂的抽象危險犯，我們也是一樣，只要行為人客觀上有隱匿或掩飾行為，且其主觀上知悉或可得知悉財物或財產上利益是特定犯罪所得，就會構成本款之要件，沒有必要把特定的意圖，也就是意圖犯放在條文裡面。我們覺得這樣既方便認定，也不影響法律的構成要件。"],["林委員思銘：我看你們在立法說明裡面提到，意圖隱匿、掩飾好像跟我們刑法體例有所扞格。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["林委員思銘：其實我看起來不會啊！我們刑法裡面有很多意圖營利或意圖使自己或第三人不法所有這樣的構成要件都寫在我們的法條裡面。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["林委員思銘：所以原本有「意圖掩飾或隱匿」這樣的構成要件，但是你們現在把這個主觀的要件拿掉，這個我看起來……"],["徐次長錫祥：報告……"],["林委員思銘：剛才你解釋得很多，但我還是覺得把它拿掉在適用上可能會有疑義。"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，基本上犯罪我們都會分成客觀要件和主觀要件，不會因為「意圖」這兩個字拿掉以後，就不需要主觀要件。這個主觀要件必須主觀上知悉或可得知悉所接受之財物或財產上利益是他人特定犯罪所得……"],["林委員思銘：次長，這我都瞭解。"],["徐次長錫祥：對、對、對。"],["林委員思銘：次長，其實我是覺得原本的條文把它寫得更明確一點，因為現在把「意圖」兩個字拿掉，感覺上雖然你剛剛說客觀上可能我們的檢察官、法官或是檢調能夠去做一個判斷……"],["徐次長錫祥：是！"],["林委員思銘：但實際上好像比較沒那麼具體。看起來啦！你思考一下啦！這是我的建議啦！我覺得把「意圖」兩個字拿掉滿奇怪的。意圖隱匿、意圖掩飾，這很清楚啊！構成要件非常清楚，把它拿掉說是因為要參照德國的立法例……"],["徐次長錫祥：是，我們是參照德國的立法例……"],["林委員思銘：我是請你們再研議啦！"],["徐次長錫祥：是，謝謝委員。"],["林委員思銘：我再請教一下，行政院修正草案第十七條是新增的，它的規定是得向相關公務機關或非公務機關調取必要之資料，並得分送國內外相關機關。說明欄說這是參考FATF評鑑方法論所建議的準則而增訂的。所以我要請教次長，在尚未增訂本條條文時，偵查洗錢案件是否有遇到任何調取資料的困難？"],["徐次長錫祥：目前的運作都是根據法務部調查局組織法、法務部調查局處務規程，以及法務部調查局辦理防制洗錢及打擊資恐業務作業要點等行政組織法或內部行政規則來執行調取，我們是把它法制化。"],["林委員思銘：次長，我瞭解，我現在問你的是說，在沒有這一條以前，你們……"],["徐次長錫祥：沒有問題！"],["林委員思銘：你們偵查這些案件有遇到任何困難嗎？不會吧！"],["徐次長錫祥：行政機關還是都會配合，但是評鑑的時候就認為我們沒有法制化，這對我們來講……"],["林委員思銘：所以你們想把它明確規定出來？"],["徐次長錫祥：對，有一個法源的依據。"],["林委員思銘：非常好，我贊同。但是我也有個疑問，就是載明調取的資料得分送國內外相關機關，那麼國外也會將他們調查的資料傳送給我們嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：這個要互惠。"],["林委員思銘：對嘛！要互惠嘛！"],["徐次長錫祥：對！我們後面也有……"],["林委員思銘：要有互惠的……"],["徐次長錫祥：我們要互惠，要有一定的條件。"],["林委員思銘：現在有哪幾個國家已經跟我們建立這樣的平等互惠的制度？有沒有？"],["徐次長錫祥：這個要調查局才能夠回答。"],["林委員思銘：請調查局洗錢防制處處長簡要回答，有沒有？有幾個國家了？"],["吳處長月萍：報告委員，現在艾格蒙的會員有174個國家，所以我們透過艾格蒙的安全網路，可以跟174個會員國交換情資。"],["林委員思銘：所以已經有174個國家跟我們建立互惠平等的機制，就是我們的資料分享給它，他們也會把他們的資料分享給我們。"],["吳處長月萍：對，基於平等互惠的原則。"],["林委員思銘：我想這個非常重要，否則我們空有這個條文，如果沒有平等互惠的機制，我們把資料分享給他們，結果他們卻沒有……","就是人家把錢洗到國外去，我們拿不到這些國家分享給我們的資料，在查證上面就會非常困難。所以我們訂了這個條文之後，國外一樣會依照您剛剛講的什麼艾……"],["吳處長月萍：艾格蒙聯盟安全網路。"],["林委員思銘：也會提供給我們？"],["吳處長月萍：對。"],["林委員思銘：分享他們的資料給我們？"],["吳處長月萍：對，現行都有在分享。"],["林委員思銘：他們也有相同的洗錢防制條文嗎？跟我們一樣對等的條文嗎？"],["吳處長月萍：因為所有的金融情資，FIU（金融情報中心）的相關法制要符合國際規範，國際規範FATF的規定就是你要跟會員國做情資交換。"],["林委員思銘：所以我國也已經建立這樣一個制度了。好，謝謝。","請主席再給我1分鐘，我要請問地政司王成機司長。"],["主席：好，1分鐘。"],["林委員思銘：司長。"],["王司長成機：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：我簡單問你，我們新竹科學園區三期還有台知園區在上個月和這個月陸續召開專案小組會議，結論分別是三期要送土徵小組繼續審查，台知園區前天是說要舉辦公聽會，所以請問司長，就你的業管來講，未來地政司就這兩個案子要如何來做相關徵收案件的推動？"],["王司長成機：跟委員簡單報告，目前還在都委會嘛！都委會專案小組有這樣一個建議，未來送到地政司這邊的話，我們是進行整個公益性、必要性的評估報告，我們會按照這個程序來排公益性、必要性的報告。"],["林委員思銘：台知呢？他們現在講到要開公聽會，要開幾場公聽會？"],["王司長成機：開公聽會還是在都委會這個階段。"],["林委員思銘：不是您的業管？"],["王司長成機：不是。"],["林委員思銘：好，謝謝。"],["王司長成機：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","接下來請翁委員曉玲質詢。翁委員曉玲，翁委員曉玲不在。","請黃委員珊珊發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-25","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","郭國文","黃國昌","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共 4案；二、處理113年度中央政\n府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處主管預算凍結項目共1案；三、併案審查(一)行政院函請審議\n「洗錢防制法修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修\n正草案」案、(三)委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135001_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"152893","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152893","tool":"pyannote","id":"152893-pyannote"},"job_id":"TyEbPWbsei4535Uv","queued_at":"2024-05-30 18:22:39","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-05-30 18:22:39","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152893"},{"time":"2024-05-30 18:22:40","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453c132ab06e5a438b8bde51848baade829a11fe39283430859dd14c04eb8ab3b375ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-05-30 18:23:05","msg":"converting mp4 to wav"},{"time":"2024-05-30 18:23:07","msg":"running pyannote"},{"time":"2024-05-30 18:23:20","msg":"status: 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{\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,414 --> 00:00:09,698\n好謝謝昭偉請秘書長請周秘書長秘書長你好我想針對剛才我們昭偉講說要把你趕下台這我聽了非常震驚其實中嘉兵委員我想過去我們在第十屆大家也是同事我對他的這個\n\n2\n00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:35,361\n五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗\n\n3\n00:00:55,114 --> 00:01:19,851\n所以我想這樣的在我們的委員會質詢的時候對秘書長做這樣子的一個言辭的其實我是覺得說很不恰當所以趙偉我不想說讓你從我的這個對你的觀感有所改變所以我還是希望說大家理性的來問政而不要涉及到說秘書長我要把你趕下來怎麼趕\n\n4\n00:01:21,343 --> 00:01:23,765\n五（五（五（五（五（五（五（五（五（\n\n5\n00:01:43,218 --> 00:02:11,865\n民主黨,我們在星期二的院會的時候,發生一件事情。就是說我們的立法委員,我們在審查國會改革無法的時候,有好幾位立委都被在我們的媒體台上面某位委員的國會助理,這位助理叫詹守中,\n\n6\n00:02:12,950 --> 00:02:35,608\n而用他的不曉得是用手機還是用用攝影機還是用這個相機呢去拍攝可以的拍攝我們委員去窺視他的手機他在看手機去窺視他手機的內容啊窺視他手機的內容啊不是啊你看那相你就看一下啊有好幾位委員吼包含了這個\n\n7\n00:02:38,795 --> 00:03:00,931\n陳永康賴世寶還有高堅素梅陳清輝委員故意的對他的手機的內容在窺視他手機現在正在拍攝什麼請問民主黨當天有跟您有委員有跟您這個提出說現在在台上有人在偷窺就是偷拍他當時你怎麼處理\n\n8\n00:03:02,353 --> 00:03:29,110\n我當時王委員來臺上有跟我說我立即就請他們去處理了是在可能是某個委員的助理在是叫詹守中嗎我們是有叫他請他因為他有證的是因為助理有證所以當然不可能在場上做獸營的動作所以我們請他離場是那他做這樣的一個動作而且他PO到這個他的臉書上面\n\n9\n00:03:30,285 --> 00:03:32,346\n則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．\n\n10\n00:04:04,656 --> 00:04:20,993\n市長請快點市長現在我們想我也大概給你看一下就是我們刑法其實妨礙秘密罪章規定的很清楚就是不得去歸視偷拍人家非公開的這些活動那您認為說現在\n\n11\n00:04:24,056 --> 00:04:41,726\n這位助理在我們的媒體區上面從台上拍攝我們委員他不是拍攝他的這個整個公開的活動他針對他的手機的內容可能去拉近距離去偷拍去窺視他手機的內容\n\n12\n00:04:43,327 --> 00:05:04,681\n請問這樣符不符合我們刑法315條的無故利用工具或設備去窺視他人之非公開的活動、言論、談話或身體隱私部位,夠不夠成這條罪?我想這個案子從這樣的畫面我不太能夠掌握,他到底看得到看不到他的談話內容。\n\n13\n00:05:06,542 --> 00:05:26,538\n就這樣一個畫面如果只是一個人坐在那裡看手機這樣的動作其實我想好幾張相片都可以看得出來這樣子看所以這個部分看起來好像我目前看到那個照片是看不到的因為那個有點比較小啦對對對但是如果只是看起來只是一個人在那裡滑手機這個動作\n\n14\n00:05:27,659 --> 00:05:50,950\n好,這樣沒關係,這樣你看不清楚我體諒你啦但是其實我們從他這個行為舉止裡面我們看得出來其實他是故意要去窺視我們國民黨籍的立法委員現在手機到底在談論什麼,在看什麼這個他的意圖非常清楚啦所以他是無故以照相的方式來這個切入\n\n15\n00:05:51,730 --> 00:05:55,793\n則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．\n\n16\n00:06:22,112 --> 00:06:47,540\n五條之一的防害秘密罪。對,這是一個告訴乃論的罪。就是被拍攝的委員要提出告訴。好,那我們請他,請這個被拍攝的委員趕快來提告。檢察官就會依法來調查。好,謝謝。好,那請這個秘書長。秘書長,你要有什麼補充?沒有,我以為說要這樣。好,沒有,現在我們,你請了我,現在要繼續請法務。跟林委員補充一下,因為當時有請他依照規定請他離場。\n\n17\n00:06:50,841 --> 00:07:12,614\n市長我再請問一下我們針對這一次我們行政院本的洗錢防制法第二條就洗錢的定義啊將第二條第一款的原本是意圖掩飾或隱匿特定犯罪的所得來源或使他人逃避刑事追溯而移轉或變更特定犯罪所得\n\n18\n00:07:13,675 --> 00:07:19,973\n現在我們把它修正就是把意圖兩個字刪除。請問次長刪除的原因是什麼?\n\n19\n00:07:21,107 --> 00:07:50,132\n因為我們是參照德國立法例那德國刑法261條對於掩飾型的洗錢犯罪我們還是一樣是採所謂的抽象危險犯那我們只要客觀有隱匿或掩飾行為主觀上知悉可得知悉財產或財產上利益是特定犯罪所得就會構成那沒有必要把這個特定的意圖意圖犯放在條文裡面如果沒有那我們覺得\n\n20\n00:07:50,512 --> 00:07:50,932\n則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．\n\n21\n00:08:12,570 --> 00:08:28,186\n此自及或第三人不法所有這樣的一個構成要件都寫在我們的法條裡面。所以你原本有意圖隱匿或掩飾這樣的一個構成要件但是你現在把它拿掉把這個主觀的一個要件拿掉\n\n22\n00:08:30,362 --> 00:08:56,052\n這個我看起來你解釋的很多啦但是我還是覺得說這個把他拿掉好像在這個我們試用上可能會有意義基本上犯罪我們都會分成客觀要件跟主觀要件不會因為意圖這兩支拿掉以後就不需要主觀要件那這個主觀要件必須要主觀上知悉或可得知悉財產或財產上利益是特定犯罪所得\n\n23\n00:08:56,852 --> 00:08:57,012\n五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗\n\n24\n00:09:26,036 --> 00:09:27,697\n第十七條規定可向公務機關或非公務機關調取必要資料並得分送國內外相關機關。\n\n25\n00:09:49,625 --> 00:10:05,558\n在條文說明處說這是參考FATF評鑑方法論所建議的準則而增列。除了請問次長在尚未新增本條條文時偵查洗錢的案件是否有遇到任何的調取資料的困難?\n\n26\n00:10:06,754 --> 00:10:33,187\n目前的運作都是根據法務部調查局組織法以及法務部調查局處務規程法務部調查局辦理洗錢防制洗錢及打擊滋控業務作業要點等這個行政組織法或內部行政規則來執行調查市長我了解我現在問的是說在過去沒有這一條以前你們在偵查這些案件有遇到任何的困難嗎不會吧\n\n27\n00:10:34,207 --> 00:10:42,136\n行政機關還是都會配合但是評鑑的時候就認為我們沒有法證的話這對我們來講是一個規定有一個法源的依據但是我現在想一個疑問就是說那我們採明的時候我們調取的資料得分送國內外相關機關\n\n28\n00:10:55,529 --> 00:11:21,599\n那國外也會將他們調查的資料傳送給我們嗎?這個要互惠對嗎?要互惠嗎?對對對我們要互惠要一定的條件所以那現在我們有哪幾個國家已經跟我們建立這樣的平等互惠的一個制度啊?有沒有?這個要調查局才能夠回答那調查局勒?調查局今天是洗錢防制處的處長嗎?\n\n29\n00:11:26,934 --> 00:11:47,941\n蘇長檢要回答啦齁有沒有幾個國家啦現在愛格萌的會員有174個國家所以我們透過愛格萌的安全網路可以跟174個會員交換情誌是所以有174個國家已經跟我們建立這樣互惠平和的機制我們的資料分享給他他們也會把他們的資料分享給我們啦\n\n30\n00:11:49,699 --> 00:12:16,130\n是我想這個非常重要否則我們空口這條文如果沒有平等互惠的一個機制那我們把資料分享給他結果他們都沒有都沒有把他們就是人家把錢洗到國外去我們拿不到這些國家分享給我們的資料我們對查證上面就非常困難所以說就是國外他們我們訂了這個條文之後國外一樣會依照你剛才講的什麼愛德蒙\n\n31\n00:12:17,011 --> 00:12:17,352\n則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．\n\n32\n00:12:31,971 --> 00:12:36,453\n國際規範的規定就是你要跟會員國做情資交換是是是所以我國也已經建立這樣的一個制度了規範好謝謝主席再給我一分鐘我請那個地政司王晨基市長\n\n33\n00:13:03,030 --> 00:13:15,497\n市長,我簡單問你,我想我們新竹園區科學園區三期還有台資園區在上個月及這個月都陸續召開了我們的專案小組會議。結論其中一個那個三期是說送土珍小組繼續來做一個審查。\n\n34\n00:13:23,982 --> 00:13:42,262\n那台資源區就是說昨天講說前天講說要舉辦公聽會所以請問市長未來地政司就這兩個案子的就是從你的業館來講未來您如何來這個做相關的相關這個徵收案件的一個推動\n\n35\n00:13:43,122 --> 00:14:07,679\n跟委員簡單報告目前還在都委會嘛那都委會專案小組有這樣一個建議那未來送到地政司這邊的話那是我們進行那個整個公益性必要性的一個評估報告那我們會按照這個程序來排這個公益性必要性的一個報告台資呢台資現在因為你講要開公聽會嘛\n\n36\n00:14:09,580 --> 00:14:16,725\n大概開幾場公聽會?開公聽會類是在還是在都委會這個階段。是是,不是您的夜館。不是。好,以上,謝謝。好,謝謝,謝謝委員,謝謝。好,謝謝林委員,謝謝。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4414\t9698\t好謝謝昭偉請秘書長請周秘書長秘書長你好我想針對剛才我們昭偉講說要把你趕下台這我聽了非常震驚其實中嘉兵委員我想過去我們在第十屆大家也是同事我對他的這個\n34880\t35361\t五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗\n55114\t79851\t所以我想這樣的在我們的委員會質詢的時候對秘書長做這樣子的一個言辭的其實我是覺得說很不恰當所以趙偉我不想說讓你從我的這個對你的觀感有所改變所以我還是希望說大家理性的來問政而不要涉及到說秘書長我要把你趕下來怎麼趕\n81343\t83765\t五（五（五（五（五（五（五（五（五（\n103218\t131865\t民主黨,我們在星期二的院會的時候,發生一件事情。就是說我們的立法委員,我們在審查國會改革無法的時候,有好幾位立委都被在我們的媒體台上面某位委員的國會助理,這位助理叫詹守中,\n132950\t155608\t而用他的不曉得是用手機還是用用攝影機還是用這個相機呢去拍攝可以的拍攝我們委員去窺視他的手機他在看手機去窺視他手機的內容啊窺視他手機的內容啊不是啊你看那相你就看一下啊有好幾位委員吼包含了這個\n158795\t180931\t陳永康賴世寶還有高堅素梅陳清輝委員故意的對他的手機的內容在窺視他手機現在正在拍攝什麼請問民主黨當天有跟您有委員有跟您這個提出說現在在台上有人在偷窺就是偷拍他當時你怎麼處理\n182353\t209110\t我當時王委員來臺上有跟我說我立即就請他們去處理了是在可能是某個委員的助理在是叫詹守中嗎我們是有叫他請他因為他有證的是因為助理有證所以當然不可能在場上做獸營的動作所以我們請他離場是那他做這樣的一個動作而且他PO到這個他的臉書上面\n210285\t212346\t則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．\n244656\t260993\t市長請快點市長現在我們想我也大概給你看一下就是我們刑法其實妨礙秘密罪章規定的很清楚就是不得去歸視偷拍人家非公開的這些活動那您認為說現在\n264056\t281726\t這位助理在我們的媒體區上面從台上拍攝我們委員他不是拍攝他的這個整個公開的活動他針對他的手機的內容可能去拉近距離去偷拍去窺視他手機的內容\n283327\t304681\t請問這樣符不符合我們刑法315條的無故利用工具或設備去窺視他人之非公開的活動、言論、談話或身體隱私部位,夠不夠成這條罪?我想這個案子從這樣的畫面我不太能夠掌握,他到底看得到看不到他的談話內容。\n306542\t326538\t就這樣一個畫面如果只是一個人坐在那裡看手機這樣的動作其實我想好幾張相片都可以看得出來這樣子看所以這個部分看起來好像我目前看到那個照片是看不到的因為那個有點比較小啦對對對但是如果只是看起來只是一個人在那裡滑手機這個動作\n327659\t350950\t好,這樣沒關係,這樣你看不清楚我體諒你啦但是其實我們從他這個行為舉止裡面我們看得出來其實他是故意要去窺視我們國民黨籍的立法委員現在手機到底在談論什麼,在看什麼這個他的意圖非常清楚啦所以他是無故以照相的方式來這個切入\n351730\t355793\t則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．\n382112\t407540\t五條之一的防害秘密罪。對,這是一個告訴乃論的罪。就是被拍攝的委員要提出告訴。好,那我們請他,請這個被拍攝的委員趕快來提告。檢察官就會依法來調查。好,謝謝。好,那請這個秘書長。秘書長,你要有什麼補充?沒有,我以為說要這樣。好,沒有,現在我們,你請了我,現在要繼續請法務。跟林委員補充一下,因為當時有請他依照規定請他離場。\n410841\t432614\t市長我再請問一下我們針對這一次我們行政院本的洗錢防制法第二條就洗錢的定義啊將第二條第一款的原本是意圖掩飾或隱匿特定犯罪的所得來源或使他人逃避刑事追溯而移轉或變更特定犯罪所得\n433675\t439973\t現在我們把它修正就是把意圖兩個字刪除。請問次長刪除的原因是什麼?\n441107\t470132\t因為我們是參照德國立法例那德國刑法261條對於掩飾型的洗錢犯罪我們還是一樣是採所謂的抽象危險犯那我們只要客觀有隱匿或掩飾行為主觀上知悉可得知悉財產或財產上利益是特定犯罪所得就會構成那沒有必要把這個特定的意圖意圖犯放在條文裡面如果沒有那我們覺得\n470512\t470932\t則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．\n492570\t508186\t此自及或第三人不法所有這樣的一個構成要件都寫在我們的法條裡面。所以你原本有意圖隱匿或掩飾這樣的一個構成要件但是你現在把它拿掉把這個主觀的一個要件拿掉\n510362\t536052\t這個我看起來你解釋的很多啦但是我還是覺得說這個把他拿掉好像在這個我們試用上可能會有意義基本上犯罪我們都會分成客觀要件跟主觀要件不會因為意圖這兩支拿掉以後就不需要主觀要件那這個主觀要件必須要主觀上知悉或可得知悉財產或財產上利益是特定犯罪所得\n536852\t537012\t五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗\n566036\t567697\t第十七條規定可向公務機關或非公務機關調取必要資料並得分送國內外相關機關。\n589625\t605558\t在條文說明處說這是參考FATF評鑑方法論所建議的準則而增列。除了請問次長在尚未新增本條條文時偵查洗錢的案件是否有遇到任何的調取資料的困難?\n606754\t633187\t目前的運作都是根據法務部調查局組織法以及法務部調查局處務規程法務部調查局辦理洗錢防制洗錢及打擊滋控業務作業要點等這個行政組織法或內部行政規則來執行調查市長我了解我現在問的是說在過去沒有這一條以前你們在偵查這些案件有遇到任何的困難嗎不會吧\n634207\t642136\t行政機關還是都會配合但是評鑑的時候就認為我們沒有法證的話這對我們來講是一個規定有一個法源的依據但是我現在想一個疑問就是說那我們採明的時候我們調取的資料得分送國內外相關機關\n655529\t681599\t那國外也會將他們調查的資料傳送給我們嗎?這個要互惠對嗎?要互惠嗎?對對對我們要互惠要一定的條件所以那現在我們有哪幾個國家已經跟我們建立這樣的平等互惠的一個制度啊?有沒有?這個要調查局才能夠回答那調查局勒?調查局今天是洗錢防制處的處長嗎?\n686934\t707941\t蘇長檢要回答啦齁有沒有幾個國家啦現在愛格萌的會員有174個國家所以我們透過愛格萌的安全網路可以跟174個會員交換情誌是所以有174個國家已經跟我們建立這樣互惠平和的機制我們的資料分享給他他們也會把他們的資料分享給我們啦\n709699\t736130\t是 我想這個非常重要否則我們空口這條文如果沒有平等互惠的一個機制那我們把資料分享給他結果他們都沒有都沒有把他們就是人家把錢洗到國外去我們拿不到這些國家分享給我們的資料我們對查證上面就非常困難所以說就是國外他們我們訂了這個條文之後國外一樣會依照你剛才講的什麼愛德蒙\n737011\t737352\t則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．\n751971\t756453\t國際規範的規定就是你要跟會員國做情資交換是是是所以我國也已經建立這樣的一個制度了規範好謝謝主席再給我一分鐘我請那個地政司王晨基市長\n783030\t795497\t市長,我簡單問你,我想我們新竹園區科學園區三期還有台資園區在上個月及這個月都陸續召開了我們的專案小組會議。結論其中一個那個三期是說送土珍小組繼續來做一個審查。\n803982\t822262\t那台資源區就是說昨天講說前天講說要舉辦公聽會所以請問市長未來地政司就這兩個案子的就是從你的業館來講未來您如何來這個做相關的相關這個徵收案件的一個推動\n823122\t847679\t跟委員簡單報告目前還在都委會嘛那都委會專案小組有這樣一個建議那未來送到地政司這邊的話那是我們進行那個整個公益性必要性的一個評估報告那我們會按照這個程序來排這個公益性必要性的一個報告台資呢台資現在因為你講要開公聽會嘛\n849580\t856725\t大概開幾場公聽會?開公聽會類是在還是在都委會這個階段。是是,不是您的夜館。不是。好,以上,謝謝。好,謝謝,謝謝委員,謝謝。好,謝謝林委員,謝謝。\n","txt":"好謝謝昭偉請秘書長請周秘書長秘書長你好我想針對剛才我們昭偉講說要把你趕下台這我聽了非常震驚其實中嘉兵委員我想過去我們在第十屆大家也是同事我對他的這個\n五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗\n所以我想這樣的在我們的委員會質詢的時候對秘書長做這樣子的一個言辭的其實我是覺得說很不恰當所以趙偉我不想說讓你從我的這個對你的觀感有所改變所以我還是希望說大家理性的來問政而不要涉及到說秘書長我要把你趕下來怎麼趕\n五（五（五（五（五（五（五（五（五（\n民主黨,我們在星期二的院會的時候,發生一件事情。就是說我們的立法委員,我們在審查國會改革無法的時候,有好幾位立委都被在我們的媒體台上面某位委員的國會助理,這位助理叫詹守中,\n而用他的不曉得是用手機還是用用攝影機還是用這個相機呢去拍攝可以的拍攝我們委員去窺視他的手機他在看手機去窺視他手機的內容啊窺視他手機的內容啊不是啊你看那相你就看一下啊有好幾位委員吼包含了這個\n陳永康賴世寶還有高堅素梅陳清輝委員故意的對他的手機的內容在窺視他手機現在正在拍攝什麼請問民主黨當天有跟您有委員有跟您這個提出說現在在台上有人在偷窺就是偷拍他當時你怎麼處理\n我當時王委員來臺上有跟我說我立即就請他們去處理了是在可能是某個委員的助理在是叫詹守中嗎我們是有叫他請他因為他有證的是因為助理有證所以當然不可能在場上做獸營的動作所以我們請他離場是那他做這樣的一個動作而且他PO到這個他的臉書上面\n則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．\n市長請快點市長現在我們想我也大概給你看一下就是我們刑法其實妨礙秘密罪章規定的很清楚就是不得去歸視偷拍人家非公開的這些活動那您認為說現在\n這位助理在我們的媒體區上面從台上拍攝我們委員他不是拍攝他的這個整個公開的活動他針對他的手機的內容可能去拉近距離去偷拍去窺視他手機的內容\n請問這樣符不符合我們刑法315條的無故利用工具或設備去窺視他人之非公開的活動、言論、談話或身體隱私部位,夠不夠成這條罪?我想這個案子從這樣的畫面我不太能夠掌握,他到底看得到看不到他的談話內容。\n就這樣一個畫面如果只是一個人坐在那裡看手機這樣的動作其實我想好幾張相片都可以看得出來這樣子看所以這個部分看起來好像我目前看到那個照片是看不到的因為那個有點比較小啦對對對但是如果只是看起來只是一個人在那裡滑手機這個動作\n好,這樣沒關係,這樣你看不清楚我體諒你啦但是其實我們從他這個行為舉止裡面我們看得出來其實他是故意要去窺視我們國民黨籍的立法委員現在手機到底在談論什麼,在看什麼這個他的意圖非常清楚啦所以他是無故以照相的方式來這個切入\n則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．\n五條之一的防害秘密罪。對,這是一個告訴乃論的罪。就是被拍攝的委員要提出告訴。好,那我們請他,請這個被拍攝的委員趕快來提告。檢察官就會依法來調查。好,謝謝。好,那請這個秘書長。秘書長,你要有什麼補充?沒有,我以為說要這樣。好,沒有,現在我們,你請了我,現在要繼續請法務。跟林委員補充一下,因為當時有請他依照規定請他離場。\n市長我再請問一下我們針對這一次我們行政院本的洗錢防制法第二條就洗錢的定義啊將第二條第一款的原本是意圖掩飾或隱匿特定犯罪的所得來源或使他人逃避刑事追溯而移轉或變更特定犯罪所得\n現在我們把它修正就是把意圖兩個字刪除。請問次長刪除的原因是什麼?\n因為我們是參照德國立法例那德國刑法261條對於掩飾型的洗錢犯罪我們還是一樣是採所謂的抽象危險犯那我們只要客觀有隱匿或掩飾行為主觀上知悉可得知悉財產或財產上利益是特定犯罪所得就會構成那沒有必要把這個特定的意圖意圖犯放在條文裡面如果沒有那我們覺得\n則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．\n此自及或第三人不法所有這樣的一個構成要件都寫在我們的法條裡面。所以你原本有意圖隱匿或掩飾這樣的一個構成要件但是你現在把它拿掉把這個主觀的一個要件拿掉\n這個我看起來你解釋的很多啦但是我還是覺得說這個把他拿掉好像在這個我們試用上可能會有意義基本上犯罪我們都會分成客觀要件跟主觀要件不會因為意圖這兩支拿掉以後就不需要主觀要件那這個主觀要件必須要主觀上知悉或可得知悉財產或財產上利益是特定犯罪所得\n五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗\n第十七條規定可向公務機關或非公務機關調取必要資料並得分送國內外相關機關。\n在條文說明處說這是參考FATF評鑑方法論所建議的準則而增列。除了請問次長在尚未新增本條條文時偵查洗錢的案件是否有遇到任何的調取資料的困難?\n目前的運作都是根據法務部調查局組織法以及法務部調查局處務規程法務部調查局辦理洗錢防制洗錢及打擊滋控業務作業要點等這個行政組織法或內部行政規則來執行調查市長我了解我現在問的是說在過去沒有這一條以前你們在偵查這些案件有遇到任何的困難嗎不會吧\n行政機關還是都會配合但是評鑑的時候就認為我們沒有法證的話這對我們來講是一個規定有一個法源的依據但是我現在想一個疑問就是說那我們採明的時候我們調取的資料得分送國內外相關機關\n那國外也會將他們調查的資料傳送給我們嗎?這個要互惠對嗎?要互惠嗎?對對對我們要互惠要一定的條件所以那現在我們有哪幾個國家已經跟我們建立這樣的平等互惠的一個制度啊?有沒有?這個要調查局才能夠回答那調查局勒?調查局今天是洗錢防制處的處長嗎?\n蘇長檢要回答啦齁有沒有幾個國家啦現在愛格萌的會員有174個國家所以我們透過愛格萌的安全網路可以跟174個會員交換情誌是所以有174個國家已經跟我們建立這樣互惠平和的機制我們的資料分享給他他們也會把他們的資料分享給我們啦\n是 我想這個非常重要否則我們空口這條文如果沒有平等互惠的一個機制那我們把資料分享給他結果他們都沒有都沒有把他們就是人家把錢洗到國外去我們拿不到這些國家分享給我們的資料我們對查證上面就非常困難所以說就是國外他們我們訂了這個條文之後國外一樣會依照你剛才講的什麼愛德蒙\n則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．\n國際規範的規定就是你要跟會員國做情資交換是是是所以我國也已經建立這樣的一個制度了規範好謝謝主席再給我一分鐘我請那個地政司王晨基市長\n市長,我簡單問你,我想我們新竹園區科學園區三期還有台資園區在上個月及這個月都陸續召開了我們的專案小組會議。結論其中一個那個三期是說送土珍小組繼續來做一個審查。\n那台資源區就是說昨天講說前天講說要舉辦公聽會所以請問市長未來地政司就這兩個案子的就是從你的業館來講未來您如何來這個做相關的相關這個徵收案件的一個推動\n跟委員簡單報告目前還在都委會嘛那都委會專案小組有這樣一個建議那未來送到地政司這邊的話那是我們進行那個整個公益性必要性的一個評估報告那我們會按照這個程序來排這個公益性必要性的一個報告台資呢台資現在因為你講要開公聽會嘛\n大概開幾場公聽會?開公聽會類是在還是在都委會這個階段。是是,不是您的夜館。不是。好,以上,謝謝。好,謝謝,謝謝委員,謝謝。好,謝謝林委員,謝謝。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.414 --> 00:09.698\n好謝謝昭偉請秘書長請周秘書長秘書長你好我想針對剛才我們昭偉講說要把你趕下台這我聽了非常震驚其實中嘉兵委員我想過去我們在第十屆大家也是同事我對他的這個\n\n00:34.880 --> 00:35.361\n五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗\n\n00:55.114 --> 01:19.851\n所以我想這樣的在我們的委員會質詢的時候對秘書長做這樣子的一個言辭的其實我是覺得說很不恰當所以趙偉我不想說讓你從我的這個對你的觀感有所改變所以我還是希望說大家理性的來問政而不要涉及到說秘書長我要把你趕下來怎麼趕\n\n01:21.343 --> 01:23.765\n五（五（五（五（五（五（五（五（五（\n\n01:43.218 --> 02:11.865\n民主黨,我們在星期二的院會的時候,發生一件事情。就是說我們的立法委員,我們在審查國會改革無法的時候,有好幾位立委都被在我們的媒體台上面某位委員的國會助理,這位助理叫詹守中,\n\n02:12.950 --> 02:35.608\n而用他的不曉得是用手機還是用用攝影機還是用這個相機呢去拍攝可以的拍攝我們委員去窺視他的手機他在看手機去窺視他手機的內容啊窺視他手機的內容啊不是啊你看那相你就看一下啊有好幾位委員吼包含了這個\n\n02:38.795 --> 03:00.931\n陳永康賴世寶還有高堅素梅陳清輝委員故意的對他的手機的內容在窺視他手機現在正在拍攝什麼請問民主黨當天有跟您有委員有跟您這個提出說現在在台上有人在偷窺就是偷拍他當時你怎麼處理\n\n03:02.353 --> 03:29.110\n我當時王委員來臺上有跟我說我立即就請他們去處理了是在可能是某個委員的助理在是叫詹守中嗎我們是有叫他請他因為他有證的是因為助理有證所以當然不可能在場上做獸營的動作所以我們請他離場是那他做這樣的一個動作而且他PO到這個他的臉書上面\n\n03:30.285 --> 03:32.346\n則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．\n\n04:04.656 --> 04:20.993\n市長請快點市長現在我們想我也大概給你看一下就是我們刑法其實妨礙秘密罪章規定的很清楚就是不得去歸視偷拍人家非公開的這些活動那您認為說現在\n\n04:24.056 --> 04:41.726\n這位助理在我們的媒體區上面從台上拍攝我們委員他不是拍攝他的這個整個公開的活動他針對他的手機的內容可能去拉近距離去偷拍去窺視他手機的內容\n\n04:43.327 --> 05:04.681\n請問這樣符不符合我們刑法315條的無故利用工具或設備去窺視他人之非公開的活動、言論、談話或身體隱私部位,夠不夠成這條罪?我想這個案子從這樣的畫面我不太能夠掌握,他到底看得到看不到他的談話內容。\n\n05:06.542 --> 05:26.538\n就這樣一個畫面如果只是一個人坐在那裡看手機這樣的動作其實我想好幾張相片都可以看得出來這樣子看所以這個部分看起來好像我目前看到那個照片是看不到的因為那個有點比較小啦對對對但是如果只是看起來只是一個人在那裡滑手機這個動作\n\n05:27.659 --> 05:50.950\n好,這樣沒關係,這樣你看不清楚我體諒你啦但是其實我們從他這個行為舉止裡面我們看得出來其實他是故意要去窺視我們國民黨籍的立法委員現在手機到底在談論什麼,在看什麼這個他的意圖非常清楚啦所以他是無故以照相的方式來這個切入\n\n05:51.730 --> 05:55.793\n則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．\n\n06:22.112 --> 06:47.540\n五條之一的防害秘密罪。對,這是一個告訴乃論的罪。就是被拍攝的委員要提出告訴。好,那我們請他,請這個被拍攝的委員趕快來提告。檢察官就會依法來調查。好,謝謝。好,那請這個秘書長。秘書長,你要有什麼補充?沒有,我以為說要這樣。好,沒有,現在我們,你請了我,現在要繼續請法務。跟林委員補充一下,因為當時有請他依照規定請他離場。\n\n06:50.841 --> 07:12.614\n市長我再請問一下我們針對這一次我們行政院本的洗錢防制法第二條就洗錢的定義啊將第二條第一款的原本是意圖掩飾或隱匿特定犯罪的所得來源或使他人逃避刑事追溯而移轉或變更特定犯罪所得\n\n07:13.675 --> 07:19.973\n現在我們把它修正就是把意圖兩個字刪除。請問次長刪除的原因是什麼?\n\n07:21.107 --> 07:50.132\n因為我們是參照德國立法例那德國刑法261條對於掩飾型的洗錢犯罪我們還是一樣是採所謂的抽象危險犯那我們只要客觀有隱匿或掩飾行為主觀上知悉可得知悉財產或財產上利益是特定犯罪所得就會構成那沒有必要把這個特定的意圖意圖犯放在條文裡面如果沒有那我們覺得\n\n07:50.512 --> 07:50.932\n則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．\n\n08:12.570 --> 08:28.186\n此自及或第三人不法所有這樣的一個構成要件都寫在我們的法條裡面。所以你原本有意圖隱匿或掩飾這樣的一個構成要件但是你現在把它拿掉把這個主觀的一個要件拿掉\n\n08:30.362 --> 08:56.052\n這個我看起來你解釋的很多啦但是我還是覺得說這個把他拿掉好像在這個我們試用上可能會有意義基本上犯罪我們都會分成客觀要件跟主觀要件不會因為意圖這兩支拿掉以後就不需要主觀要件那這個主觀要件必須要主觀上知悉或可得知悉財產或財產上利益是特定犯罪所得\n\n08:56.852 --> 08:57.012\n五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗\n\n09:26.036 --> 09:27.697\n第十七條規定可向公務機關或非公務機關調取必要資料並得分送國內外相關機關。\n\n09:49.625 --> 10:05.558\n在條文說明處說這是參考FATF評鑑方法論所建議的準則而增列。除了請問次長在尚未新增本條條文時偵查洗錢的案件是否有遇到任何的調取資料的困難?\n\n10:06.754 --> 10:33.187\n目前的運作都是根據法務部調查局組織法以及法務部調查局處務規程法務部調查局辦理洗錢防制洗錢及打擊滋控業務作業要點等這個行政組織法或內部行政規則來執行調查市長我了解我現在問的是說在過去沒有這一條以前你們在偵查這些案件有遇到任何的困難嗎不會吧\n\n10:34.207 --> 10:42.136\n行政機關還是都會配合但是評鑑的時候就認為我們沒有法證的話這對我們來講是一個規定有一個法源的依據但是我現在想一個疑問就是說那我們採明的時候我們調取的資料得分送國內外相關機關\n\n10:55.529 --> 11:21.599\n那國外也會將他們調查的資料傳送給我們嗎?這個要互惠對嗎?要互惠嗎?對對對我們要互惠要一定的條件所以那現在我們有哪幾個國家已經跟我們建立這樣的平等互惠的一個制度啊?有沒有?這個要調查局才能夠回答那調查局勒?調查局今天是洗錢防制處的處長嗎?\n\n11:26.934 --> 11:47.941\n蘇長檢要回答啦齁有沒有幾個國家啦現在愛格萌的會員有174個國家所以我們透過愛格萌的安全網路可以跟174個會員交換情誌是所以有174個國家已經跟我們建立這樣互惠平和的機制我們的資料分享給他他們也會把他們的資料分享給我們啦\n\n11:49.699 --> 12:16.130\n是我想這個非常重要否則我們空口這條文如果沒有平等互惠的一個機制那我們把資料分享給他結果他們都沒有都沒有把他們就是人家把錢洗到國外去我們拿不到這些國家分享給我們的資料我們對查證上面就非常困難所以說就是國外他們我們訂了這個條文之後國外一樣會依照你剛才講的什麼愛德蒙\n\n12:17.011 --> 12:17.352\n則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．\n\n12:31.971 --> 12:36.453\n國際規範的規定就是你要跟會員國做情資交換是是是所以我國也已經建立這樣的一個制度了規範好謝謝主席再給我一分鐘我請那個地政司王晨基市長\n\n13:03.030 --> 13:15.497\n市長,我簡單問你,我想我們新竹園區科學園區三期還有台資園區在上個月及這個月都陸續召開了我們的專案小組會議。結論其中一個那個三期是說送土珍小組繼續來做一個審查。\n\n13:23.982 --> 13:42.262\n那台資源區就是說昨天講說前天講說要舉辦公聽會所以請問市長未來地政司就這兩個案子的就是從你的業館來講未來您如何來這個做相關的相關這個徵收案件的一個推動\n\n13:43.122 --> 14:07.679\n跟委員簡單報告目前還在都委會嘛那都委會專案小組有這樣一個建議那未來送到地政司這邊的話那是我們進行那個整個公益性必要性的一個評估報告那我們會按照這個程序來排這個公益性必要性的一個報告台資呢台資現在因為你講要開公聽會嘛\n\n14:09.580 --> 14:16.725\n大概開幾場公聽會?開公聽會類是在還是在都委會這個階段。是是,不是您的夜館。不是。好,以上,謝謝。好,謝謝,謝謝委員,謝謝。好,謝謝林委員,謝謝。\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.414,"end":9.698,"text":"好謝謝昭偉請秘書長請周秘書長秘書長你好我想針對剛才我們昭偉講說要把你趕下台這我聽了非常震驚其實中嘉兵委員我想過去我們在第十屆大家也是同事我對他的這個"},{"start":34.88,"end":35.361,"text":"五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗"},{"start":55.114,"end":79.851,"text":"所以我想這樣的在我們的委員會質詢的時候對秘書長做這樣子的一個言辭的其實我是覺得說很不恰當所以趙偉我不想說讓你從我的這個對你的觀感有所改變所以我還是希望說大家理性的來問政而不要涉及到說秘書長我要把你趕下來怎麼趕"},{"start":81.343,"end":83.765,"text":"五（五（五（五（五（五（五（五（五（"},{"start":103.218,"end":131.865,"text":"民主黨,我們在星期二的院會的時候,發生一件事情。就是說我們的立法委員,我們在審查國會改革無法的時候,有好幾位立委都被在我們的媒體台上面某位委員的國會助理,這位助理叫詹守中,"},{"start":132.95,"end":155.608,"text":"而用他的不曉得是用手機還是用用攝影機還是用這個相機呢去拍攝可以的拍攝我們委員去窺視他的手機他在看手機去窺視他手機的內容啊窺視他手機的內容啊不是啊你看那相你就看一下啊有好幾位委員吼包含了這個"},{"start":158.795,"end":180.931,"text":"陳永康賴世寶還有高堅素梅陳清輝委員故意的對他的手機的內容在窺視他手機現在正在拍攝什麼請問民主黨當天有跟您有委員有跟您這個提出說現在在台上有人在偷窺就是偷拍他當時你怎麼處理"},{"start":182.353,"end":209.11,"text":"我當時王委員來臺上有跟我說我立即就請他們去處理了是在可能是某個委員的助理在是叫詹守中嗎我們是有叫他請他因為他有證的是因為助理有證所以當然不可能在場上做獸營的動作所以我們請他離場是那他做這樣的一個動作而且他PO到這個他的臉書上面"},{"start":210.285,"end":212.346,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":244.656,"end":260.993,"text":"市長請快點市長現在我們想我也大概給你看一下就是我們刑法其實妨礙秘密罪章規定的很清楚就是不得去歸視偷拍人家非公開的這些活動那您認為說現在"},{"start":264.056,"end":281.726,"text":"這位助理在我們的媒體區上面從台上拍攝我們委員他不是拍攝他的這個整個公開的活動他針對他的手機的內容可能去拉近距離去偷拍去窺視他手機的內容"},{"start":283.327,"end":304.681,"text":"請問這樣符不符合我們刑法315條的無故利用工具或設備去窺視他人之非公開的活動、言論、談話或身體隱私部位,夠不夠成這條罪?我想這個案子從這樣的畫面我不太能夠掌握,他到底看得到看不到他的談話內容。"},{"start":306.542,"end":326.538,"text":"就這樣一個畫面如果只是一個人坐在那裡看手機這樣的動作其實我想好幾張相片都可以看得出來這樣子看所以這個部分看起來好像我目前看到那個照片是看不到的因為那個有點比較小啦對對對但是如果只是看起來只是一個人在那裡滑手機這個動作"},{"start":327.659,"end":350.95,"text":"好,這樣沒關係,這樣你看不清楚我體諒你啦但是其實我們從他這個行為舉止裡面我們看得出來其實他是故意要去窺視我們國民黨籍的立法委員現在手機到底在談論什麼,在看什麼這個他的意圖非常清楚啦所以他是無故以照相的方式來這個切入"},{"start":351.73,"end":355.793,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":382.112,"end":407.54,"text":"五條之一的防害秘密罪。對,這是一個告訴乃論的罪。就是被拍攝的委員要提出告訴。好,那我們請他,請這個被拍攝的委員趕快來提告。檢察官就會依法來調查。好,謝謝。好,那請這個秘書長。秘書長,你要有什麼補充?沒有,我以為說要這樣。好,沒有,現在我們,你請了我,現在要繼續請法務。跟林委員補充一下,因為當時有請他依照規定請他離場。"},{"start":410.841,"end":432.614,"text":"市長我再請問一下我們針對這一次我們行政院本的洗錢防制法第二條就洗錢的定義啊將第二條第一款的原本是意圖掩飾或隱匿特定犯罪的所得來源或使他人逃避刑事追溯而移轉或變更特定犯罪所得"},{"start":433.675,"end":439.973,"text":"現在我們把它修正就是把意圖兩個字刪除。請問次長刪除的原因是什麼?"},{"start":441.107,"end":470.132,"text":"因為我們是參照德國立法例那德國刑法261條對於掩飾型的洗錢犯罪我們還是一樣是採所謂的抽象危險犯那我們只要客觀有隱匿或掩飾行為主觀上知悉可得知悉財產或財產上利益是特定犯罪所得就會構成那沒有必要把這個特定的意圖意圖犯放在條文裡面如果沒有那我們覺得"},{"start":470.512,"end":470.932,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":492.57,"end":508.186,"text":"此自及或第三人不法所有這樣的一個構成要件都寫在我們的法條裡面。所以你原本有意圖隱匿或掩飾這樣的一個構成要件但是你現在把它拿掉把這個主觀的一個要件拿掉"},{"start":510.362,"end":536.052,"text":"這個我看起來你解釋的很多啦但是我還是覺得說這個把他拿掉好像在這個我們試用上可能會有意義基本上犯罪我們都會分成客觀要件跟主觀要件不會因為意圖這兩支拿掉以後就不需要主觀要件那這個主觀要件必須要主觀上知悉或可得知悉財產或財產上利益是特定犯罪所得"},{"start":536.852,"end":537.012,"text":"五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗"},{"start":566.036,"end":567.697,"text":"第十七條規定可向公務機關或非公務機關調取必要資料並得分送國內外相關機關。"},{"start":589.625,"end":605.558,"text":"在條文說明處說這是參考FATF評鑑方法論所建議的準則而增列。除了請問次長在尚未新增本條條文時偵查洗錢的案件是否有遇到任何的調取資料的困難?"},{"start":606.754,"end":633.187,"text":"目前的運作都是根據法務部調查局組織法以及法務部調查局處務規程法務部調查局辦理洗錢防制洗錢及打擊滋控業務作業要點等這個行政組織法或內部行政規則來執行調查市長我了解我現在問的是說在過去沒有這一條以前你們在偵查這些案件有遇到任何的困難嗎不會吧"},{"start":634.207,"end":642.136,"text":"行政機關還是都會配合但是評鑑的時候就認為我們沒有法證的話這對我們來講是一個規定有一個法源的依據但是我現在想一個疑問就是說那我們採明的時候我們調取的資料得分送國內外相關機關"},{"start":655.529,"end":681.599,"text":"那國外也會將他們調查的資料傳送給我們嗎?這個要互惠對嗎?要互惠嗎?對對對我們要互惠要一定的條件所以那現在我們有哪幾個國家已經跟我們建立這樣的平等互惠的一個制度啊?有沒有?這個要調查局才能夠回答那調查局勒?調查局今天是洗錢防制處的處長嗎?"},{"start":686.934,"end":707.941,"text":"蘇長檢要回答啦齁有沒有幾個國家啦現在愛格萌的會員有174個國家所以我們透過愛格萌的安全網路可以跟174個會員交換情誌是所以有174個國家已經跟我們建立這樣互惠平和的機制我們的資料分享給他他們也會把他們的資料分享給我們啦"},{"start":709.699,"end":736.13,"text":"是 我想這個非常重要否則我們空口這條文如果沒有平等互惠的一個機制那我們把資料分享給他結果他們都沒有都沒有把他們就是人家把錢洗到國外去我們拿不到這些國家分享給我們的資料我們對查證上面就非常困難所以說就是國外他們我們訂了這個條文之後國外一樣會依照你剛才講的什麼愛德蒙"},{"start":737.011,"end":737.352,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":751.971,"end":756.453,"text":"國際規範的規定就是你要跟會員國做情資交換是是是所以我國也已經建立這樣的一個制度了規範好謝謝主席再給我一分鐘我請那個地政司王晨基市長"},{"start":783.03,"end":795.497,"text":"市長,我簡單問你,我想我們新竹園區科學園區三期還有台資園區在上個月及這個月都陸續召開了我們的專案小組會議。結論其中一個那個三期是說送土珍小組繼續來做一個審查。"},{"start":803.982,"end":822.262,"text":"那台資源區就是說昨天講說前天講說要舉辦公聽會所以請問市長未來地政司就這兩個案子的就是從你的業館來講未來您如何來這個做相關的相關這個徵收案件的一個推動"},{"start":823.122,"end":847.679,"text":"跟委員簡單報告目前還在都委會嘛那都委會專案小組有這樣一個建議那未來送到地政司這邊的話那是我們進行那個整個公益性必要性的一個評估報告那我們會按照這個程序來排這個公益性必要性的一個報告台資呢台資現在因為你講要開公聽會嘛"},{"start":849.58,"end":856.725,"text":"大概開幾場公聽會?開公聽會類是在還是在都委會這個階段。是是,不是您的夜館。不是。好,以上,謝謝。好,謝謝,謝謝委員,謝謝。好,謝謝林委員,謝謝。"}]}}}}