{"id":152915,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152915","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453f0f83f0d6c54d3a5bde51848baade829d34e896d657c5e833fd1aa64397e0cb55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"11:31:24 - 11:38:46","影片長度":"00:07:22","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共4案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處主管預算凍結項目共1案。\n三、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第三案（一）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查；（四）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":442,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":25,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-25"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T11:38:46+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T11:31:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1124,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（11時31分）謝謝主席，有請我們法務部鄭部長以及我們銀行局局長，還有證期局代表。"],["主席：剛剛點到名的請上臺，包括部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：部長好。因為本席今天有洗防法的提案，洗防法的問題當中主要是針對打詐的部分，現在詐騙集團的介面，除了電話、網路之外，最關鍵的就是虛擬貨幣，現在虛擬貨幣幾乎是無政府狀態，以至於詐騙集團的洗錢管道都朝向了虛擬貨幣。在上一次劍青改的討論當中，劍青改成員對於現階段金管會的作為非常的不滿，所以我想問你站在法務部部長的角色，就他們不滿的一個很關鍵的原因，就是金管會並沒有全面性的納管，是選擇性的納管，也就是只有採取深度監管，沒有採取廣度監管，這種情況底下會有掛一漏萬，造成了第一線的檢查人員、檢察官的負擔非常之重，你有沒有期待整個行政納管應該把它廣面化？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員的關心這個議題，目前初期我們先做一個洗防法的納管，因為這也是經過多方的廣納意見，至於委員所提到的，再更廣面、更深度的納管，我想我們可以再做一個……"],["郭委員國文：我覺得你要強烈地表達意見，部長，到目前為止，整個金管會的內部，從銀行局移撥到證期局，也不過從23家變成25家有法遵聲明而已，到目前為止約略有60家，還有包括個人的幣商，還有其他黑數，很多都沒有納入管理，即便你今天通過所謂的登記制，有限度的限縮方式，也沒有辦法達到一個納管的目的，也沒有達到一個洗錢防制的功能，部長，所以針對這一點，你應該強烈的要求金管會做全面性的納管，部長，有沒有可能？你對這個業務可能還不是非常清楚啦！","另外，他們也期望、強調要有差異化的管理，也就是大規模金控跟小規模的當舖，每一個地方借錢的方式都不太一樣，不可能承擔所有管理成本的規模，部長，這個都是基層檢察官的心聲啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：洗錢法目前還是在一個洗錢的防制上，剛才委員有關心的，要普遍性的納管、更深入的納管，我想這個我們也是有建議過金管會就專法來做……"],["郭委員國文：有建議過金管會？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有建議就專法來做處理。"],["郭委員國文：那我接下來請教金管會的組長，部長已經有強烈的建議，你們看法怎麼樣？"],["黃組長錫和：報告委員，就專法部分我們已經有委外研究，大概在今年9月底之前會有……"],["郭委員國文：可是剛剛委員有講，可能要把洗防法當成母法，這樣以後會有專法嗎？確定？現在不是還在評估而已？"],["黃組長錫和：報告委員，專法與第六條通過之後的子法，兩個案子都有在做委外研究。"],["郭委員國文：有沒有可能全面性納管？"],["黃組長錫和：我們在受理申請時，不管是現在的法遵聲明或以後……"],["郭委員國文：你們就是個案審查，這樣非常侷限！部長都已經跟你們開口了，金管會要有積極作為，好不好？今天的法條如果通過的話，尤其第六條或第六條之一通過的話，你們應該要有積極的作為，不要讓第一線的檢察官承擔太多，也不要讓詐騙的風氣越來越猖獗，好不好？可以嗎？"],["黃組長錫和：好。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝。主席，有請周萬來周秘書長。"],["主席：請周秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：郭委員早。"],["郭委員國文：那兩本書還有那些會議資料……"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝，因為……"],["郭委員國文：有沒有收到？"],["周秘書長萬來：有收到。但因為恰好是總統就職典禮，委員也可能去，所以我沒有……"],["郭委員國文：對，因為當天晚上我去住院，隔天是禮拜六、禮拜天，也不能送過去。你很清楚，我是針對書，不是針對你，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：當時我想應該……要資料……"],["郭委員國文：針對那些資料、會議資料，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：對。"],["郭委員國文：我沒有出手攻擊你，我有沒有？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為在推擠中，難免會……那個時候因為椅子會滑動……"],["郭委員國文：主要是拿你的書，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為我拿著書，而那個椅子會滑動……"],["郭委員國文：那是椅子。"],["周秘書長萬來：還好我的同事壓在後面。"],["郭委員國文：我有看到你跌坐在椅子裡……"],["周秘書長萬來：結果我沒有跌倒。"],["郭委員國文：我問一下，你有嚇到嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：當時是有一個驚訝而已，不知道突然會有這個動作……"],["郭委員國文：需不需要帶你去收驚？"],["周秘書長萬來：倒沒有……"],["郭委員國文：不用嘛……"],["周秘書長萬來：就有點刮傷。"],["郭委員國文：所以不用帶你去收驚？"],["周秘書長萬來：應該不至於、不至於。"],["郭委員國文：不用？不用？"],["周秘書長萬來：不至於，沒有到那個地步。"],["郭委員國文：我問你一個實質的問題好了。剛剛鍾佳濱委員問說，未來立法院公報是一個很重要的關鍵！也就是說，在沒有採取記名表決，而是採取舉手表決的情況下，依照立法院目前的紀錄，不管照片也好、錄影也好，有沒有辦法判別出哪些委員反對、哪些委員贊成？有沒有辦法判別？"],["周秘書長萬來：舉手表決不大可能，除非去照照片……"],["郭委員國文：對、對，議事人員有沒有可能依照照片來判讀哪一個人贊成或反對，有沒有可能？"],["周秘書長萬來：如果真正去看帶子，是有可能……"],["郭委員國文：可以判別出來嗎？判斷得出來的話，那以後立法院公報在公報的文字記錄上，可不可以記錄哪些人贊成，哪些人反對？依照舉手表決的情況。"],["周秘書長萬來：因為……"],["郭委員國文：根據判別、判斷基礎？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為在舉手表決的方式裡，一般來講是不會去考量顯示……"],["郭委員國文：所以只會記錄總人數？即哪些人贊成的總人數，還有哪些人反對的總數而已？"],["周秘書長萬來：對。"],["郭委員國文：不會用這種方式？如果將來找你去現場作證，要你提供相關資料的話，有沒有辦法作為判准的依據？"],["周秘書長萬來：以委員人數的贊成、反對當然可能會有……"],["郭委員國文：會有判准的依據？我覺得你要站在議事中立的角色……"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：不要老是在議事規則轉彎，我提醒你。"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝你，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：你相助過王金平，也相助過韓國瑜，你要請韓國瑜多學學王金平。"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭國文委員，謝謝周秘書長。","跟委員會報告，依先前徵得委員會同意於11點半處理臨時提案。剛剛11點半時間屆滿，本席也有宣告不再受理提案，也徵詢大家同意，在郭委員詢答後就進行處理。","現在處理臨時提案，共一案，宣讀後我們再處理。請宣讀。","臨時提案1（修正本）","為確保立法院各種會議在議決法律案、預算案等，具法律位階法規範之議案時，必須依《立法院職權行使法》第6條等、立法院《議事規則》第35條、第36條及其他相關規定，以具「具名表決，效力之表決方式進行表決，俾以維護未來若有合憲性爭議時，本院委員依《憲法訴訟法》提出釋憲之聲請要件，以保障本院解決憲政爭議的合憲解決途徑。","提案人：鍾佳濱　　陳俊宇　　吳思瑤　　"],["主席：因為本席是提案委員，我這裡做一個補充說明。倒數第二行：「以保障本院解決憲政爭議」，把「解決」拿掉，就是「以保障本院憲政爭議的合憲解決途徑」，多了兩個字，「解決」是多的。","針對臨時提案，請問在場機關有無其他意見或說明？"],["黃委員國昌：你是問機關還是問……"],["主席：問機關有沒有意見。沒有的話，我們就請問現場其他委員有沒有意見？先請羅委員智強、再請謝委員龍介、再請黃委員國昌、翁委員曉玲，時間3分鐘。"],["羅委員智強：我覺得主席很認真提案，這點要肯定他。針對主席的這個提案，我們待會會來討論，但剛剛主席不受理我四個提案，理由是時間因素，沒有關係！我覺得如果主席這提案能夠一同把我的四個提案都送進來、一起討論的話，更能彰顯這次立法院民進黨的偉大！雖然主席說我的提案逾時不受理，不過我可以念給大家聽。","第一個提案，有鑑於日前發生民進黨籍立法委員郭國文在議場內公然以暴力搶奪議事人員之文件，造成議事人員摔倒之情形，爰提案立法院院會未來開會時，不得再攻擊議事人員。這個也很重要！舉手表決要不要做很重要，但這個也很重要，不要隨便亂打議事人員，這樣子不好！壞習慣！","第二個提案，鑑於日前發生民進黨籍立委鍾佳濱爬上主席台對國民黨立委陳菁徽施以兩次衝撞暴行，有不當接觸，造成女性立委身心受創，心生恐懼。爰提案立法院院會未來議事時，不得衝上主席台用暴力行為來延宕議事，並要求民進黨立委鍾佳濱公開向陳菁徽委員道歉。民進黨向來關心女權、向來關心性平、向來關心性騷，如果我們在這邊能表決這件事，我覺得也非常有意義。不只是舉手投票，不要性騷擾也很重要！","第三個，有鑑於日前發生民進黨立委在議場以鎖門、身體擒抱方式限制立法院長人身自由，不僅造成議事延宕，而且有性騷擾之虞。爰提案立法院院會開會之時，不得以任何方式來限制立法院院長的人身自由。所以基本上，我希望大家能夠尊重院長，舉手投票很重要，要不要討論很重要，但是不要一直杯葛、騷擾我們的立法院院長韓國瑜，我想這個也是非常重要。","另外，我們的國民禮儀條款今天最好也討論一下，為什麼？從小到大大家知道，進場要排隊，如果想要第一個進場的話就早點排隊，演唱會什麼的都是這樣做，小時候讀書排圖書館也是這樣做。國民黨排隊排了四十八小時，結果民進黨竟然在開場前十分鐘，好兇！插隊！一路打記者！打議事人員！打警察！打立委！一路打進立法院！這麼雄壯威武的事情，在司法及法制委員會難道不會比舉手投票要不要舉行重要嗎？雖然今天鍾佳濱主席不表決這幾項，但是沒關係，我建議、我口頭告訴大家：不要插隊，民進黨！不要插隊，民進黨！不要插隊，民進黨！這很重要，所以要說三次。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員。接下來請謝委員龍介發言。"],["謝委員龍介：自古以來做賊心虛，不要白布硬是要染黑！現場抽表決卡，徐欣瑩搶回來，結果你們說徐欣瑩搶你們的表決卡？所有國民黨的表決卡都被你們拿走！舉手表決，國會要尊重傳統，去看看英國國會是怎樣做的？不用廢除啦，廢除什麼？本來就有很多種表決方式，不要白布硬是要染黑，作賊喊捉賊、打人喊救人，這都無法教導後代子孫。","今天舉手表決，這叫做傳統，傳統跟創新要並顧，臺灣號稱科技之島，AI領先全世界，一個國會表決，秘書長，這個你就要注意聽了，我們有新的工具、新的科技，要表決也好，有哪一條法律規定表決要坐在你的位子上？沒有！只要在議場裡面即可，所以我建議秘書長，趕快請我們臺灣這些AI科技大廠，針對立法院來做一個設計，每一位立委只要簽到之後就發一條手環，這個手環就是我們臺灣的科技，我站在哪裡都可以表決，yes、no我都可以按，我按廢票也可以，而且這條AI是屬於你個人的，你要舉手也好，你要用按的也好，老百姓不管你們這些立法委員挖鼻孔挖到流鼻血也沒關係，誰要管你們？但是表決只要有一個手環，我要站著表決、我要坐著表決，我在哪裡我都可以按，只要沒有離開議場，離開議場的話，你的手環就會感應不到，這麼簡單。就只會在那裡要廢除這一條，也要廢除那一條，「胡蠅舞屎桮」，在那裡舞弄什麼？糞坑越攪越臭，不要這樣啦！有風度一點啦！人多的話，少數尊重多數、少數服從多數，多數會疼惜少數，國會不要再吵下去了，受傷了你有看到了嗎？我只是沒有喊出來而已，鍾佳濱的身體很好，他每天都在練，muscle那麼多，像一頭牛一樣，那是真的有夠有力，改天請高抬貴手啦！主席！"],["主席：謝謝謝委員的建議、構想，接下來請黃委員國昌發言。"],["黃委員國昌：謝謝主席。針對民主進步黨立委所提出來的這個臨時提案，要求立法院院會未來討論法律案、預算案和條約案時，應採用記名的方式表決，不得以舉手表決為之。針對這項臨時提案……"],["主席：拿錯版本。"],["黃委員國昌：不是這個版本？請問是哪個版本？可以發給大家嗎？"],["主席：有發了，抱歉。"],["黃委員國昌：所以這個版本是什麼時候抽換的？"],["主席：剛剛在同一時間、11點半前……"],["黃委員國昌：這個是11點半的時候？"],["主席：之前。"],["黃委員國昌：好，所以你們要依照立法院職權行使法、議事規則，以具「具名表決」效力的表決方式進行表決，然後維護未來有憲政爭議的時候，然後以保障什麼途徑，針對這個提案的內容，等一下是不是可以請立法院秘書長周萬來表示一下意見？因為對於立法院議事規則第三十五條所承認合法表決的方式，可不可以透過臨時提案的方式予以變更？這是法制上的重大作業，如果今天透過臨時提案的方式就可以變更立法院議事規則的話，那以後關於立法院議事規則的審議程序是不是就被空洞化掉了？是不是就被空洞化掉了？我覺得這個是最關鍵的核心問題。","第二個，我必須要說明的是，為什麼會被逼到用舉手表決？今天如果沒有人要攻擊主席臺，妨礙議事的正常運作，如果今天沒有人要破壞表決器，甚至把其他委員的表決卡抽走，破壞整個表決器表決的方式，哪一個立法委員不希望坐在自己的位置上，好好地進行表決器表決？你不能夠說一方面我想要去干擾議事的進行，我要攻占主席臺，我要讓院長、讓主席沒有辦法主持會議，另外一方面要求別人，你如果想投票，你要乖乖的坐在位置上，天底下沒有這種道理！議事規則不是為民主進步黨而創設的，議事規則也不是民主進步黨想幹嘛就幹嘛，以上。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，剛剛黃委員又重新把一些提案內容念一遍，謝謝黃委員提醒，剛剛在宣讀的時候，我先說明一下，第五行「以具記名表決」，「具」應該是別字，「具記名表決效力」不是「具具名表決效力」，這邊做一個修正。因為剛剛有翁委員登記發言，還有吳思瑤委員登記發言，是不是我們請要發言的委員先表示一下？我依序讓大家發言。接下來請翁委員曉玲發言。還有其他委員要發言的話，請舉手，至於黃委員說要請周秘書長的部分，在兩位委員發言後，再請他來表示意見。來，請。"],["翁委員曉玲：我看到今天主席的臨時提案，真的讓我覺得不可思議，會要討論有關於記名表決的這個方式，基本上，我認為它有兩個大問題，第一個，就像剛剛前面黃國昌委員所說的，一個委員會議的決議就可以去推翻立法院議事規則嗎？立法院議事規則第三十五條規定得非常清楚，議案表決的方式總共有5種：口頭表決、舉手表決、表決器表決、投票表決以及點名表決，舉手表決就是一個合法的表決方式，不要以文害意，投票是一定要有那個票嗎？我們舉手，它就是一個最古老、最傳統、最公開、直接、透明的一個表達每個委員個人自己意見、立場的方式，舉手表決，就像我們講的，這是一個最直接、民主的方式，後來因為有現代科技的發展，然後讓大家委員們可以輕鬆一點，坐在委員位置上面按表決器來表決，這有什麼不對？","我要再說，今天之前吳思瑤委員在那裡講什麼拿表決卡的事情，剛剛楊瓊瓔委員播的那段影片，就是我本人用手機當場錄下的，我在第一時間看到民進黨的幾位女立委，直接從我的面前拿走我同伴、我的委員同志的表決卡，簡直是不可思議！他們怎麼可能會有這樣的一個行為？他們有尊重別的委員的職權行使嗎？他們有尊重議事人員已經把所有的卡都插在上面，他們可以這麼做嗎？我必須說，民進黨的立法院黨團，我認為以後可以有另外一個暱名叫做強盜黨團，他們既搶周萬來秘書長的資料文件，也搶我們其他委員的表決卡，嚴重破壞民主程序、議事程序，不要惡人先告狀！","我們在講民主，要看一個國家的民主素養，就看這個國家的立法委員的行為表現，我們一直在說君子動口不動手，可是我們看到立法院民進黨委員的所作所為都是先動手，他們什麼時候變成了拳腳政府、拳腳黨團？我在這裡真的感到非常遺憾，之後我們立法院可能還必須更嚴格的修改我們的立法院議事規則，要嚴禁這種拿別人的、搶奪、強盜別人表決卡的行為。"],["主席：好，在吳思瑤委員發言後，我們請周秘書長答復，再請莊瑞雄委員繼續發言。你先？對不起，在周秘書長答復之後請傅委員，再來是莊委員。","請吳思瑤委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：主席、各位同仁。我難得非常同意剛剛幾位委員的論述，但是就更好，我們可以好好來看看誰是今天說一套，然後平時又做另外一套。剛剛兩位法學博士──黃國昌跟翁曉玲，都提到依據立法院議事規則，可以用一個委員會的決議來超越議事規則嗎？這個問題很好！那你們先去問一問，可以用修法來超越憲法嗎？你們現在所推動的立法院職權行使法，沒有關係！黃國昌，你繼續你的訕笑，沒有問題，就繼續離場，不要落跑，回來聽我講啊！法學博士只會落跑，翁曉玲也不要跑啊！我會講到你啊！所以，現在國民黨、民眾黨所提的國會擴權法案，就是用法律來超越憲法，不是嗎？剛剛黃國昌說，不要讓法制空洞化，那麼你們的作為不是讓憲法空洞化嗎？","第二個，羅智強委員說，因為他們沒有跟上今天主席宣告多次11點半登記臨時提案的時間，所以他們的4個案子沒有辦法在今天併案審查，我們覺得尊重下一次，還有下一次的委員會，其實羅委員的幾個提案都可以在下一次委員會再透過臨時提案提出，這個程序上是沒有問題的。但如果羅委員這麼重視他的案子沒有被併案的話，那麼羅委員應當將心比心，現在的國會擴權法案，國民黨只審國民黨、民眾黨的版本，民進黨的國會真改革的4個法案完全沒有辦法被併案審查，完全沒有辦法被併案協商。所以就併案論併案，國民黨想要併案的時候就要併案，然後不想讓民進黨的版本一起來審查的時候就拒絕併案，這是什麼樣的邏輯跟道理？","好，講到我們鍾佳濱召委，如果那天在肢體推擠當中，對於其他委員有產生肢體上的衝撞，鍾委員已經親自多次道歉，而且清楚說明，絕非故意！如果國民黨這麼重視國會反性騷，那為什麼不讓民進黨的#MeToo條款，立法院委員行為法能夠併案審查，能夠一起在我們的議事審議程序當中來落實國會的改革，真正的從制度面來反性騷呢？國民黨為什麼不審民進黨的反性騷條款呢？又說到有沒有人偷卡，翁曉玲委員走了，我實在很想說給他聽，剛剛就在今天早上國民黨團的記者會，翁曉玲委員自己說漏嘴，他那天偷了民進黨兩個委員的卡，翁曉玲委員今天早上在國民黨的記者會，所有的發言都被拍下來記錄了，誰偷卡？翁曉玲委員自己說，他偷了民進黨或是抽了民進黨兩位委員的表決卡。","最後回到這個提案的主題，我們反對舉手表決，我們要求記名表決，不是為了議事方便不方便、技術如何如何，而是為了每一個議案，國會議員要對歷史負責，如果不採取表決器表決卡按鈕表決，歷史上誰能夠去記載誰支持了國會的擴權？誰支持了對人民查水表的條款？誰支持了這種無限上綱的藐視國會罪？透過記名表決是對歷史負責。羅智強委員，您回來了喔！你剛剛講到演唱會，我非常喜歡演唱會，你知道嗎？在場外抗議的年輕人，他們拿著海報說，現在連演唱會購票都要實名制了，立法院表決居然不用記名投票，講演唱會，就講演唱會，現在連演唱會都要推實名制了。"],["主席：請發言委員注意時間。"],["吳委員思瑤：為什麼立法院的委員表決不敢記名投票？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：我剛剛質詢的時候跟私下時間有問了周萬來秘書長，表決卡有沒有備卡？有沒有空卡？秘書長說是有的，既然有備卡、有空卡……"],["主席：待會兒我們再請秘書長……"],["吳委員思瑤：如果有任何表決卡發生遺失的狀況，難道不能趕快來做處理嗎？"],["主席：我們待會兒請周秘書長回復。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝龍介委員說臺灣是科技之島，對啊！臺灣是科技之島啊！所以立法院的表決卡，難道因為有所遺失就不能夠有備卡跟空卡嗎？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：這是什麼科技？"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。待會兒請周秘書長答復。","先處理會議時間，上午會議時間繼續進行至臨時提案處理完畢，所有登記發言委員詢答結束，並將報告事項所列預算解凍書面報告案處理完畢，及討論事項法案條文宣讀完畢為止。","應委員要求，接著請周秘書長回應，因為好幾位都有提到，時間3分鐘。"],["周秘書長萬來：主席、各位委員。修正版本我是看過了，但一般來講就是議事規則裡面的這五款，第三十五條第一款跟第四款是由主席決定宣告，以現行的規則這是主席的權力，這是以目前來講。至於第五款裡面的點名表決才會由委員提出來，然後再由主席進行表決，目前是這樣啦！修正版本要不要這樣去處理，我個人並沒有表示意見，是由大家委員去合議。","至於剛才郭委員有提到將來的憲法訴訟法裡面四分之一的問題，我想司法院大概會從第四十九條去看，我就不再說明，因為這跟我們沒有很大關聯性。","至於卡的問題，當然我們會有備卡，我們會有備卡，不可能是沒有備卡，不過當時的情況是已經被抽了，有上簽呈給我看過，因為這是內部的公文，我不會說明。當時的情況就以主席本身對這四款有權力自己就決定宣告舉手表決，這是一個補充，請各位瞭解，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來有登記的是傅總召發言，請。"],["傅委員崐萁：今天我想我們討論這個議題非常有意思，周萬來周秘書長，我想比較重要在這裡，未來相關委員所提出來的建議，我想都可以討論。剛剛謝龍介謝委員所提出的，本席覺得，真的立法要與時俱進，因為現在在立法院裡面的各種行為──偷、拐、矇、騙，樣樣都有！但是表決是非常神聖的事情，今天鍾佳濱召委也提出了這個問題，我們在這裡正式討論，我想這也是好事啦！既然要討論的話，未來有什麼樣一次解決的方式？其實早就應該進行了。所以到底進了立法院以後，是不是人人手上就有一份屬於自己各個委員在行使自己職權該有的一些科技裝備？我想早就應該跟上時代了。","不過，在這裡對於表決方式，是不是韓院長可以來主持、來決定，事實上議事規則裡面寫得非常清楚，本來舉手表決就可以由院長直接裁示。","對於外面講到很多各種不同的說法，我們還是要在這裡澄清，在國會有一就一、有二就二，雖然各種謠言滿天，抹黑、各種假消息、假訊息，不斷地在散播，但是我們要清楚的表達，立法院各個委員會到今天為止，甚至待會兒鍾佳濱召委所提出的臨時提案都是大家舉手表決，這裡也沒有辦法插卡表決，也沒有辦法做其他的表決，最常用的就是舉手表決，從有立法院到今天為止都在舉手表決，走到國外有800年民主歷史的英國，英國國會到現在都是舉手表決，更重要的是，全世界共同聯合在一起的聯合國也是舉手表決。","剛剛特別強調一個重點，因為韓院長還是有他的苦衷，本席要在這裡清楚地再次表達，為什麼非要用舉手表決？第一個，禮拜五院會的時候，民進黨立委當場竊取國民黨立委的表決卡，竊取之後又指責翁曉玲委員，說他有去抽兩張民進黨的卡，事實上翁曉玲委員抽的卡有交給議事人員，是交給議事人員！而民進黨抽的卡、幾位委員竊取國民黨的表決卡，是把它藏起來，讓議事人員找不到這些卡，所以當天是有發生竊盜的行為，而且並沒有交給議事人員，才讓院長決定要來用舉手表決。","更重要的事情是，不管是在禮拜二的協商當中，還是原本今天下午要進行的協商當中，希望柯建銘柯總召本諸國會議事和諧、遵守議事規則、立法委員的行為要可受公評，希望大家能夠支持接受民進黨所提出的要求用表決器表決，就是大家都坐在位子上表決，本席也欣然同意，但是要請柯建銘柯總召簽字具結，大家一致同意坐在位子上表決，不得侵占主席台，不讓韓國瑜院長主持會議，但是很抱歉，柯建銘柯總召悍然拒絕簽署這樣的一個朝野協商決議，讓大家沒有辦法坐在位子上表決，也沒有辦法用插卡表決。我們把事實還原真相。","但我還是很謝謝鍾佳濱鍾召委，可能未來是民進黨的鍾總召，最近表現得非常大，今天也提出這個臨時提案，本席是很高興啦！因為畢竟這個提案今天在這裡還是要做舉手表決，然後做一個決定。未來如果在委員會提的臨時提案可以改變議事規則的話，本席也欣然接受啦！這樣以後我們都在委員會來做決定也可以，少數服從多數，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝傅總召。說明一下，在委員會的會議我們還是根據立法院議事規則第三十五條、第三十六條，依照這五種表決方式行之。再次說明。","接下來是由莊委員瑞雄進行發言。請！時間3分鐘。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝召委。我看傅崐萁坐在那邊，都不想走他那邊，我要過來這邊！","其實在場所有委員，還有在場媒體朋友和這麼多列席官員，雖然主席宣告3分鐘，但是看一下就知道都是參考用的，很難去遵循。有時候真的是議題還沒有講完，遇到話多的人，他就一直說，這也都合理！","聽了剛剛幾個國民黨委員的講法，我有一點感慨，立法院只要早上還沒有進到議場的時候，每一個人都是正常的人，進到議場、簽到以後，立法院就瘋子一堆，話都亂說！比如說剛剛我們羅智強委員，我看他語意裡面就贊成鍾佳濱這個提案，只是說想多加入他幾個提案，這個都是好事。但是聽完以後，其實大家今天幾乎都是在講口水，比如說大家談到到底誰偷立法院的表決卡，不管哪一個政黨的委員去拿到那個表決卡，我也不認為是偷啦！在場有吳宗憲委員，還有這麼多法制人員，竊盜要去看第三百二十條的規定：竊取他人之物、他人之動產。在我看來那個都不是竊取，其實吳宗憲委員很清楚，這個都是議事攻防，只是到底要不要約束、做得有沒有超過？","黃捷委員拿了那個表決卡以後是交給議事人員耶！"],["翁委員曉玲：哪有？沒有！"],["莊委員瑞雄：有啦！你去看一下影片，那個影片都有看到。不要每一個人都去擷取片段到這個地方。像謝龍介，我也覺得他的提案很好啊！雖然謝龍介來到立法院以後都胡說八道，但是我覺得聽得很爽啊！我也覺得聽得很爽啊！"],["傅委員崐萁：秘書長，他有還給人家嗎？什麼時候還的？"],["莊委員瑞雄：尊重我一下！尊重我一下！"],["主席：時間暫停。委員，我們是不是讓莊委員講完再……","來，莊委員請繼續。"],["莊委員瑞雄：現在謝龍介站在我旁邊，你看這個鏡頭多好你知道嗎？這個畫面一般人會認為他是不是具有攻擊性？不會啊！","我看謝委員臉臭臭的，我在講話你也笑一下啊！"],["謝委員龍介：你要給我捧場嗎？"],["莊委員瑞雄：我現在就是要給你捧場啊！","他剛剛有一個提案我倒是覺得非常好，大家考慮一下。他說臺灣是一個高科技之島，掛個手鍊就好。那個是要感應到的。可是你只說表決而已，我覺得不夠。你這個臺南的，腦袋瓜總是稍微有點不清楚，我屏東的就很清楚，因為我比較遠……"],["謝委員龍介：臺南的民進黨委員有6個喔！"],["莊委員瑞雄：你聽我說，我是說你這個提案不夠清楚啦！我這個屏東的就會覺得那個距離要再拉長，你剛剛提案說高科技，弄個可以感應的就可以表決了，你乾脆就連簽名也可以！只要感應到就算簽名了，就不用每天在那邊搭高鐵。"],["謝委員龍介：可以做得到啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：你有贊成我就對了！"],["謝委員龍介：在院區裡面才感應得到啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：我跟你講，這樣我們兩個都瘋了，你知道嗎？","我要講的就是，立法院就成天在練這些「痟話」啦！全都是口水啦！","鍾委員的提案我倒是覺得重要的意義在什麼地方──在立法院議事規則第三十五條第一項裡面，其實我們的表決有兩種，以抽象來看真的是只有兩種，一種叫做記名，一種叫做不記名，不記名的話，口頭表決當然是不記名，不記名投票當然也是不記名，用表決器就是一種記名，點名表決也是一種記名，記名投票也是一種記名。那就怪了！就是舉手表決要怎麼去定義它的問題啦！各位偉大的政治家，其實都可以討論啦！","但是相互攻防，輸的那方不要比較好啦！當人家在說你們陳雪生的時候，我也覺得那哪有可能，眾目睽睽之下，我也覺得比較不愛講人家私人的事情。鍾佳濱委員那天那個議事攻防裡面，國民黨已經講他幾次說什麼他性騷。我們議場所有媒體都在那裡耶！你們明明看到他是要爬上去，被推下來，因為有紙在那裡，他往前倒，衝過去抱到陳委員嘛！那個怎麼會是性騷嘛！就是睜著眼睛說瞎話嘛！當事人當然會不舒服，鍾佳濱委員也去道歉了，你們還糾結在這裡！這個就是離開議場以後要放下啦！那樣不好啦！亂成這樣！你們在課堂裡面，大家是當老師的，難道這個議事攻防學生看到以後會跟你說「老師這樣好棒棒」嗎？有必要嗎？"],["翁委員曉玲：老師會質疑……"],["莊委員瑞雄：有必要嗎？有必要嗎？","大家來到立法院都張牙舞爪，是誰比誰來得凶？不用這樣嘛！哪有誰比誰凶！有啊！你們每個人都背負著民意到這邊來，問題是進來以後都走了樣啊！","立法院我覺得真正有必要修的大家可以建議一下，憲法規定的立法委員言論免責權，時代不一樣了，這一條把它修掉啦！這一條修掉就好玩了，立法院就不會再這樣胡說八道了。你看，傅崐萁也幫我按讚！"],["傅委員崐萁：請你提案。"],["莊委員瑞雄：很好啊！我們共提！","幫我按讚就要共提，可以喔？這樣大家進來以後就不會胡說八道了嘛！對不對？大家都在胡說八道，實在是！這樣延宕了一整天，結果大家薪水照領！感慨啦！"],["主席：謝謝。還有沒有委員要表示意見？這樣子啦！在場委員，我大概說明一下，這個提案我聽了各位委員的意見，因為我身為提案人，我跟大家說明，這裡面還是有一些要補充的，就是為確保立法院的議事公正，我想議事公正還是要寫上去，在各種會議議決，因為我們是委員會，我再講一次，「為確保立法院之議事公正，在各種委員會議決法律案、預算案等具法律位階法規範之議案時」，我想這裡說明，因為我們是委員會，那委員會做的決議，我們只是各種會議之中的一種，所以這樣的一個臨時提案如果通過了，它是為了確保立法院之議事公正，那麼在議決，有限定喔！法律案、預算案，這些具有法律位階的法規範，只有這些案子在議決的時候，我們才是根據立法院職權行使法第六條，完全沒有去超越，還是照第六條，就是以過半數同意為之。","那議事規則第三十五條、第三十六條，它分別規定了可決的額數和表決的方式，那表決的方式誠如各位委員所指教的，一共有五種，那這五種根據第三十五條規定，就是第一、口頭表決；第二、舉手表決；第三、表決器表決；第四、投票表決；第五、點名表決。本委員會過去因為沒有表決器，我們也沒有用口頭表決，我們都是用舉手表決的方式，在吳召委的時候，也曾經通過用點名表決，那舉手表決跟點名表決的差別在於說，點名表決可以確認，具有記名的效果，因為這些預算案、法律案或者條約案在未來如果有合憲爭議的時候，根據憲法訴訟法，我們必須要能夠確定是誰投了贊成還是反對，所以我這邊再強調一次，我們只是為了確保立法院之議事公正，我們在各種委員會包括本委員會，我們當然這裡只能就本委員會在議決法律案和預算案等這些議案的時候，要依據第六條、第三十五條、第三十六條，以具記名表決效力的表決方式為之，這個是確保我們議事人員在登記這次的議決過程，每一位行使表決權的委員，他是贊成、反對，以記名的方式能夠被呈現出來，未來萬一有合憲爭議的時候，我們在處理的時候才能確保每位委員的情況，以上說明。","委員還有要發言的嗎？來，請黃委員，請。"],["黃委員國昌：我不是要發言，我只是要進行一個簡單的會議詢問，這個會議詢問的內容是針對目前所提出來的臨時提案，我們是不是能夠按照以前處理臨時提案的方式，針對臨時提案內容的變更提出修正的建議？"],["主席：目前就在進行啊！我剛剛的發言是要請大家來表示意見。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，好。那我現在是可以正式的針對這一個臨時提案內容文字的變更提出文字修正建議嗎？"],["主席：請提出，我們等你提。"],["黃委員國昌：好。"],["主席：委員，在這段時間，有沒有……謝謝，那是不是印給大家？"],["黃委員國昌：我先簽完。"],["主席：變更不用簽名，因為修正給大家看就可以了。我看一下，我再唸一遍「為確保立法院之議事公正，在各種會議議決法律案、預算案等具法律位階法規範之議案時，必須依立法院職權行使法第六條、立法院議事規則第三十五條、第三十六條及其他相關規定，以具記名表決效力之表決方式進行表決，俾維護未來若有合憲性爭議時，本院委員依憲法訴訟法提出釋憲之申請要件，以保障本院憲政爭議的合憲解決途徑。且為確保會議進行之合法性及合憲性，各黨團應切結不得以攻佔主席台，阻礙院長或副院長主持會議，或強行抽走表決卡之方式，破壞會議之合法合憲進行。」"],["吳委員思瑤：修正文字要印給大家。"],["主席：我們請印給大家，我唸過了，請印給大家。那在印給大家的過程我說明一下，我強調一次，這個內容請各位委員瞭解，因為我們只是司法委員會的一分子，那我們所做的，雖然上面講到了各種會議，但是因為本委員會是屬於院會授權做審查的一個單元，所以基本上我們的決定是以我們委員會來遵循，所以這一點我跟黃委員說明，因為我們做成決議是本委員會，我們不可能……如果說我們要做成決議跟院會建議，那我是建請黃委員是不是另外寫一個跟院會的建議案，我們再來處理。因為我剛剛所講的，純粹是就各種會議當中，為了確保我們的議事公正性，在處理相關法律案或預算案的時候，我們要有一個記名表決效力的表決方式，大概這樣的說明，請黃委員鑒察。"],["黃委員國昌：我同意要確保整個會議的合法性跟合憲性，以及事後的司法審查，因為司法審查的範圍，包括會議進行當中是不是有符合相關的規範，會不會破壞憲政民主的秩序，這個是憲法法庭在針對國會自律事項，在進行合憲性審查的時候，所必要審查的要素，那也就是因為這個樣子，為了要確保本院在議事進行當中所為的表決具有合法性，也可以通過憲法法庭未來合憲性的審查，那顯然我們要關注的事項就不僅僅是到底是不是用記名還是哪一種特定的表決方式，我們必須要關注的事項還有這個會議是不是合法合憲的進行，如果會議要能夠合法合憲進行的話，不要攻佔主席台，阻礙院長或副院長主持議事程序，不要去偷抽其他立法委員的表決卡，導致其他立法委員在行使憲法所賦予的職權的時候，遭到外力不當的阻礙，這個都攸關於立法院所為的立法行為，在憲法法庭是不是能夠判定這一個會議通過合憲性審查的必要要件。","因此，我們針對剛剛鍾佳濱委員所提出來那樣子的一個臨時提案，在後面更完整的就要確保合法合憲性提出修正的文字，我們認為並無不妥，至於說到底是妥還是不妥這件事情，我覺得應該是交由司法及法制委員會現在已經出席的委員來共同決定，而不是主席一個人的裁示，以上。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員的會議詢問。在吳委員發言之前，我大概做一個建議請各位參考。因為我強調的是我們是在本委員會，是不是後面加的「為確保會議進行之合法性及合憲性……」是不是要各黨團切結，這個尊重大家……"],["吳委員思瑤：主席，等一下，我有不同意見耶！"],["主席：我先把……"],["吳委員思瑤：沒有、沒有，我針對這個提案這樣……"],["主席：好。"],["吳委員思瑤：主席，因為臨時提案一的提案是在講記名表決的方式，但是剛剛黃國昌委員他試圖要用修正的文字，去處理另外兩個前提不一樣的東西，如果黃國昌委員要再提下面這個部分，他應該是另外再提一個臨時提案，而且要循你剛剛宣告的那個提案時間，因為黃委員後面加的這一大段，跟你前面在講記名表決有什麼直接的關聯？所以現在他們用不同的修正文字，其實就是在……那就另外提一個新的臨時提案啊！循臨時提案的程序啊！不然這樣沒完沒了啊！我一看就覺得這根本是在你原始提案的後面加一大堆，而且跟你原本的提案有什麼直接的關聯，你的很簡單，你就講表決方式而已，後面的卻扯到要不要攻占主席臺、要不要怎樣、有沒有人抽走表決卡，我都同意不攻占主席臺，我絕對同意啊！但是是誰去攻占主席臺？誰昨天半夜又開始去那邊排隊了，對不對？然後黃委員說，不可以去抽走表決卡。我也絕對同意啊！我們就是討厭別人抽走表決卡，現在是國民黨抽走別人的表決卡啊！我都同意這兩個，那你就去弄另外的臨時提案，看是一個案或兩個案啊……"],["主席：謝謝吳委員……"],["吳委員思瑤：因為這完全把你的本質都改掉了耶！你的提案很簡單，是在講表決方式，後面的居然是什麼攻占主席臺，全部要和在同一個提案，另外循程序提新的臨時提案，這樣才對！"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。我現在正要說明，因為後面的文字內容有跟本委員會有間的部分，第一個是攻占主席臺，其實我們過去在委員會有發生的是占據主席臺，就是這個地方，然後妨礙院長、副院長的部分，因為我們在委員會，院長、副院長主持的會議大概不是指本委員會的會議，表決卡也不在本委員會的使用範疇，所以是不是黃委員考慮一下這個內容文字上？我們現在講的是各種會議，這當然以本委員會來談處理重要議案的表決方式，還是依照我們現有的議事規則及職權行使法的方式為之。這是一點意見，您可以參考，因為我們這裡沒有表決卡，我們這裡也沒有院長、副院長，我們也沒有什麼攻占主席臺，過去只有主席主持的時候，大家在主席臺前情況比較混亂而已。","委員是不是還要針對剛剛的文字修正部分提出意見？先請羅委員，再來翁委員。"],["羅委員智強：我也要提文字修正，我覺得我們鍾佳濱委員很認真、用心，他說要用具名表決，我覺得非常好，但是考量我們的議事順暢，我覺得應該要有一個前提設定，所以我建議在第2行「具法律位階規範之議案時」的「時」前面加上一段文字，「在沒有立法委員或任何人為干擾癱瘓議事欲占據主席臺，以及偷竊、強盜其他立委表決卡，以致無法進行投票器表決，主席必須以舉手投票維持議事情況時」，你就可以接上後面的「具名表決」，因為事實上我們必須考量所有的情況，具名表決很好，非常棒啊！只要沒有什麼無賴政黨想要去攻占主席臺癱瘓議事，或者是去搶人家的表決卡，這種情況之下，當然大大方方，任何表決方式我都同意啊！可是如果這兩件事情發生，你已經沒有辦法進行表決了，當然按照議事規則，用舉手表決，我覺得是很好的方式，所以為周延起見，要讓這個提案更具憲政與立法高度的意義，我建議把以上的文字加上去，謝謝。"],["主席：這樣好不好？因為剛剛有遞了一個文字修正，是不是我們休息幾分鐘，讓議事人繕寫清楚，我們才有辦法處理，好不好？我們先休息2分鐘，之後再請翁委員發言，我們把文字謄清楚，大家才有辦法處理，因為這樣文字不清楚，接下來不知道怎麼討論？先讓大家休息一下，休息2分鐘。","休息（12時28分）","繼續開會（12時30分）"],["主席：繼續開會。由於登記發言委員還有包括黃委員及葉委員，還有報告事項的解凍案，還有法案條文的宣讀，所以這一案就暫不處理。","接下來有請黃國昌委員發言。"],["羅委員智強：主席，這樣不對吧！你提了臨時提案，自己又不處理自己的臨時提案，不好啦！表決一下，馬上就結束，不用3分鐘。這樣就收回去，不好啦！"],["主席：可以、可以，我們上次也這樣子。"],["羅委員智強：主席，上次收回去不好看，你已經提案啦！"],["黃委員國昌：今天不再處理？"],["主席：今天不再處理。"],["黃委員國昌：今天不再處理。"],["主席：今天不再處理。"],["黃委員國昌：你就確保……"],["主席：不會啦！不會啦！今天不再處理。","黃委員，你要發言。接下來請黃委員國昌發言。"],["羅委員智強：我們大家在這邊要等表決，不給我們表決，真的是，這麼好的提案，我都支持。"],["吳委員宗憲：每次都反對你自己的提案，莫名其妙！"],["羅委員智強：對啊！每次都反對自己的提案，我不能理解啊！"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-25","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","郭國文","黃國昌","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共 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{\"word\": \"瑜\", \"start\": 431.679, \"end\": 431.699, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"郭\", \"start\": 431.699, \"end\": 431.82, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 431.82, \"end\": 431.9, \"score\": 0.743}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"周\", \"start\": 431.9, \"end\": 432.08, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"秘\", \"start\": 432.08, \"end\": 432.1, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 432.1, \"end\": 432.32, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 432.32, \"end\": 432.34, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,145 --> 00:00:26,630\n因為11點半要開始處理提案所以這邊預作宣告我們就不再受理臨時提案謝謝主席主席有請我們法務部正部長以及我們銀行局局長還有政區局代表剛剛點到名的請上台報告部長\n\n2\n00:00:30,314 --> 00:00:55,030\n部長好部長因為本席今天有洗房法的這個提案那洗房法的這個問題當中主要針對打詐打詐的部分現在詐騙集團的界面其實除了這個電話網路之外最關鍵的就是虛擬貨幣那現在虛擬貨幣幾乎是無政府狀態以至於這個詐騙集團的洗錢管道都朝向這個虛擬貨幣\n\n3\n00:00:57,131 --> 00:01:15,606\n我上次在建清改的這個討論當中呢建清改的這個成員啊對於現階段金管會做非常地不滿那我想問站在法務部的這個部長的角色就他們不滿的一個很關鍵的一個原因就是呢金管會並沒有全面性的納管是選擇性的納管\n\n4\n00:01:17,347 --> 00:01:34,194\n那也就是只有採取深度監管沒有採取廣度監管這種情況底下會有掛一落萬的情況底下造成了第一線的檢察人員檢察官負擔非常之重那你有沒有期待整個行政納管應該把它廣面化\n\n5\n00:01:39,248 --> 00:02:00,993\n謝謝委員的關心這個議題那這個目前我們初期我們先做就是先做一個洗房法這樣的納管因為這也是經過多方的一個廣納意見那至於委員所提到的再更廣面更深度的納管我想我們可以做是再做一個我覺得你要強烈表達意見啊部長\n\n6\n00:02:02,293 --> 00:02:24,633\n依照目前為止整個經管部經管會的內部從銀行局移撥到正期局也不過從23家變25家有法遵聲明而已到目前為止還有約六六六十家還有包括個人的幣商還有其他黑數很多都沒有納入管理的情況底下即便今天通過了所謂的登記制\n\n7\n00:02:25,814 --> 00:02:45,159\n他有限度的這種限縮的方式也沒有辦法達到一個納管的一個目的也沒有達到一個洗錢防制的一個功能啊部長所以這一點你應該強烈的要求經管會做全面性的一個納管有沒有可能部長你可能對這個業務還不是非常清楚啦齁\n\n8\n00:02:46,448 --> 00:03:06,309\n另外還有他們也期望強調要有差異化的管理也就是呢大規模金控呢跟小規模的當鋪呢每一個地方這些借錢的方式都不太一樣不可能承擔所有的一個管理成本的一個規模部長這個都是基層檢察官的心聲啊\n\n9\n00:03:07,721 --> 00:03:29,274\n市長這個洗錢法目前還是在一個洗錢的防制那當然委員有關心的要普遍性的一個納管更深入納管我想這個我們也是有建立過金管會就專法有建立過金管會那我接下來請金管會金管會那個組長來那個部長已經有強烈的建議那你們看法怎麼樣\n\n10\n00:03:30,653 --> 00:03:54,599\n報告委員就專法的部分我們已經有委外研究那大概在今年的九月底之前會有委外研究可是剛剛委員有講阿你可能要把洗錢洗房法當成母法阿你以後會有專法嗎確定嗎你們現在不是還在評估而已嗎報告委員其實專法跟就是說這個第六條如果說通過之後的這個執法我們其實兩個案子都有在做委外研究那有沒有可能全面性的納管\n\n11\n00:03:56,368 --> 00:04:21,971\n報告委員其實我們在受理申請不管是現在的法律申請或以後的你們都是個案審查啦非常局限啦部長都已經跟你們開口了你們經管會要有積極作為啦好不好今天又有這個法條如果通過的話六條之一如果第六條或第六條之一通過的話你們應該要有積極的作為啊不要讓第一線的檢察官承擔太多嘛也不要讓打詐的這個風氣越來越猖獗嘛好不好\n\n12\n00:04:22,671 --> 00:04:49,449\n可以嗎?好,謝謝主席。有請周秘書長。請周秘書長。秘書長,那兩本書還有那些會議資料有沒有收到?有收到,因為跳在中午就職你也可能去,所以我沒有…對啊,因為當天我們上個時候去住院啦,那後來隔天又禮拜六禮拜天啦,也不能送過去啦。那你很清楚我是針對書,不是針對你嘛,對不對?\n\n13\n00:04:51,722 --> 00:04:53,384\n我看到你跌落在椅子裡頭啦。那我問一下,你有怕到嗎?\n\n14\n00:05:18,295 --> 00:05:26,844\n當時是有一個驚訝而已啦。我不知道突然會有這個動作啦。倒沒有。因為有點刮的傷啦。所以刮一點點。因為不至於啦。因為不至於。那我還要問你一個實質的問題好了。\n\n15\n00:05:38,185 --> 00:05:58,593\n剛剛鍾嘉斌委員在問說,未來的整個立法院公報是一個很重要的關鍵,也就是說沒有採取記名表格,那採取舉手表決的情況底下,依照我們立法院目前的這一個紀錄,不管是照片也好,錄影也好,有沒有辦法判別出來哪一些委員是屬於反對的,哪一些委員是贊成的,有沒有辦法判別?議員,剛剛有一些舉手表決不太可能會出名,除非你是\n\n16\n00:06:08,466 --> 00:06:32,260\n對!對!對!議事人員有沒有可能依照這照片來判讀說哪一個人是屬於贊成或反對有沒有可能?如果要真正分析帶子是有可能的。又可以判決出來嗎?判斷了出來的話那我們以後立法院公報在公報的文字記錄上面可不可以記錄說哪些人贊成哪些人反對依照舉手表決的情況底下根據判決的判斷的一個基礎\n\n17\n00:06:33,410 --> 00:06:55,938\n因為舉所表決的方式裏面啦一般來講是不會去考量所以您只會記錄說哪些人總人數哪些人贊成總人數還有哪些人反對總數而已不會用這種方式可是那將來如果找你去那個現場來作證的時候呢你又提供相關資料有沒有辦法作為判決的依據判準的依據那稍等稍等你委員的連續的贊成有沒有\n\n18\n00:07:02,293 --> 00:07:12,340\n會有判決的依據我覺得你要站在一個議事中立的角色不要老是在那邊議事規則轉彎我提醒你你相助過黃國瑜你也相助過韓國瑜你要請黃國瑜多學學黃國瑜謝謝郭委員謝謝周秘書長跟委員會\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9145\t26630\t因為11點半要開始處理提案所以這邊預作宣告我們就不再受理臨時提案謝謝主席主席有請我們法務部正部長以及我們銀行局局長還有政區局代表剛剛點到名的請上台報告部長\n30314\t55030\t部長好部長因為本席今天有洗房法的這個提案那洗房法的這個問題當中主要針對打詐打詐的部分現在詐騙集團的界面其實除了這個電話網路之外最關鍵的就是虛擬貨幣那現在虛擬貨幣幾乎是無政府狀態以至於這個詐騙集團的洗錢管道都朝向這個虛擬貨幣\n57131\t75606\t我上次在建清改的這個討論當中呢建清改的這個成員啊對於現階段金管會做非常地不滿那我想問站在法務部的這個部長的角色就他們不滿的一個很關鍵的一個原因就是呢金管會並沒有全面性的納管是選擇性的納管\n77347\t94194\t那也就是只有採取深度監管沒有採取廣度監管這種情況底下會有掛一落萬的情況底下造成了第一線的檢察人員檢察官負擔非常之重那你有沒有期待整個行政納管應該把它廣面化\n99248\t120993\t謝謝委員的關心這個議題那這個目前我們初期我們先做就是先做一個洗房法這樣的納管因為這也是經過多方的一個廣納意見那至於委員所提到的再更廣面更深度的納管我想我們可以做是再做一個我覺得你要強烈表達意見啊部長\n122293\t144633\t依照目前為止整個經管部經管會的內部從銀行局移撥到正期局也不過從23家變25家有法遵聲明而已到目前為止還有約六六六十家還有包括個人的幣商還有其他黑數很多都沒有納入管理的情況底下即便今天通過了所謂的登記制\n145814\t165159\t他有限度的這種限縮的方式也沒有辦法達到一個納管的一個目的也沒有達到一個洗錢防制的一個功能啊部長所以這一點你應該強烈的要求經管會做全面性的一個納管有沒有可能部長你可能對這個業務還不是非常清楚啦齁\n166448\t186309\t另外還有他們也期望強調要有差異化的管理也就是呢大規模金控呢跟小規模的當鋪呢每一個地方這些借錢的方式都不太一樣不可能承擔所有的一個管理成本的一個規模部長這個都是基層檢察官的心聲啊\n187721\t209274\t市長這個洗錢法目前還是在一個洗錢的防制那當然委員有關心的要普遍性的一個納管更深入納管我想這個我們也是有建立過金管會就專法有建立過金管會那我接下來請金管會金管會那個組長來那個部長已經有強烈的建議那你們看法怎麼樣\n210653\t234599\t報告委員就專法的部分我們已經有委外研究那大概在今年的九月底之前會有委外研究可是剛剛委員有講阿你可能要把洗錢洗房法當成母法阿你以後會有專法嗎確定嗎你們現在不是還在評估而已嗎報告委員其實專法跟就是說這個第六條如果說通過之後的這個執法我們其實兩個案子都有在做委外研究那有沒有可能全面性的納管\n236368\t261971\t報告委員其實我們在受理申請不管是現在的法律申請或以後的你們都是個案審查啦非常局限啦部長都已經跟你們開口了你們經管會要有積極作為啦好不好今天又有這個法條如果通過的話六條之一如果第六條或第六條之一通過的話你們應該要有積極的作為啊不要讓第一線的檢察官承擔太多嘛也不要讓打詐的這個風氣越來越猖獗嘛好不好\n262671\t289449\t可以嗎?好,謝謝主席。有請周秘書長。請周秘書長。秘書長,那兩本書還有那些會議資料有沒有收到?有收到,因為跳在中午就職你也可能去,所以我沒有…對啊,因為當天我們上個時候去住院啦,那後來隔天又禮拜六禮拜天啦,也不能送過去啦。那你很清楚我是針對書,不是針對你嘛,對不對?\n291722\t293384\t我看到你跌落在椅子裡頭啦。那我問一下,你有怕到嗎?\n318295\t326844\t當時是有一個驚訝而已啦。我不知道突然會有這個動作啦。倒沒有。因為有點刮的傷啦。所以刮一點點。因為不至於啦。因為不至於。那我還要問你一個實質的問題好了。\n338185\t358593\t剛剛鍾嘉斌委員在問說,未來的整個立法院公報是一個很重要的關鍵,也就是說沒有採取記名表格,那採取舉手表決的情況底下,依照我們立法院目前的這一個紀錄,不管是照片也好,錄影也好,有沒有辦法判別出來哪一些委員是屬於反對的,哪一些委員是贊成的,有沒有辦法判別?議員,剛剛有一些舉手表決不太可能會出名,除非你是\n368466\t392260\t對!對!對!議事人員有沒有可能依照這照片來判讀說哪一個人是屬於贊成或反對有沒有可能?如果要真正分析帶子是有可能的。又可以判決出來嗎?判斷了出來的話那我們以後立法院公報在公報的文字記錄上面可不可以記錄說哪些人贊成哪些人反對依照舉手表決的情況底下根據判決的判斷的一個基礎\n393410\t415938\t因為舉所表決的方式裏面啦一般來講是不會去考量所以您只會記錄說哪些人總人數哪些人贊成總人數還有哪些人反對總數而已不會用這種方式可是那將來如果找你去那個現場來作證的時候呢你又提供相關資料有沒有辦法作為判決的依據判準的依據那稍等稍等你委員的連續的贊成有沒有\n422293\t432340\t會有判決的依據我覺得你要站在一個議事中立的角色不要老是在那邊議事規則轉彎我提醒你你相助過黃國瑜你也相助過韓國瑜你要請黃國瑜多學學黃國瑜謝謝郭委員謝謝周秘書長跟委員會\n","txt":"因為11點半要開始處理提案所以這邊預作宣告我們就不再受理臨時提案謝謝主席主席有請我們法務部正部長以及我們銀行局局長還有政區局代表剛剛點到名的請上台報告部長\n部長好部長因為本席今天有洗房法的這個提案那洗房法的這個問題當中主要針對打詐打詐的部分現在詐騙集團的界面其實除了這個電話網路之外最關鍵的就是虛擬貨幣那現在虛擬貨幣幾乎是無政府狀態以至於這個詐騙集團的洗錢管道都朝向這個虛擬貨幣\n我上次在建清改的這個討論當中呢建清改的這個成員啊對於現階段金管會做非常地不滿那我想問站在法務部的這個部長的角色就他們不滿的一個很關鍵的一個原因就是呢金管會並沒有全面性的納管是選擇性的納管\n那也就是只有採取深度監管沒有採取廣度監管這種情況底下會有掛一落萬的情況底下造成了第一線的檢察人員檢察官負擔非常之重那你有沒有期待整個行政納管應該把它廣面化\n謝謝委員的關心這個議題那這個目前我們初期我們先做就是先做一個洗房法這樣的納管因為這也是經過多方的一個廣納意見那至於委員所提到的再更廣面更深度的納管我想我們可以做是再做一個我覺得你要強烈表達意見啊部長\n依照目前為止整個經管部經管會的內部從銀行局移撥到正期局也不過從23家變25家有法遵聲明而已到目前為止還有約六六六十家還有包括個人的幣商還有其他黑數很多都沒有納入管理的情況底下即便今天通過了所謂的登記制\n他有限度的這種限縮的方式也沒有辦法達到一個納管的一個目的也沒有達到一個洗錢防制的一個功能啊部長所以這一點你應該強烈的要求經管會做全面性的一個納管有沒有可能部長你可能對這個業務還不是非常清楚啦齁\n另外還有他們也期望強調要有差異化的管理也就是呢大規模金控呢跟小規模的當鋪呢每一個地方這些借錢的方式都不太一樣不可能承擔所有的一個管理成本的一個規模部長這個都是基層檢察官的心聲啊\n市長這個洗錢法目前還是在一個洗錢的防制那當然委員有關心的要普遍性的一個納管更深入納管我想這個我們也是有建立過金管會就專法有建立過金管會那我接下來請金管會金管會那個組長來那個部長已經有強烈的建議那你們看法怎麼樣\n報告委員就專法的部分我們已經有委外研究那大概在今年的九月底之前會有委外研究可是剛剛委員有講阿你可能要把洗錢洗房法當成母法阿你以後會有專法嗎確定嗎你們現在不是還在評估而已嗎報告委員其實專法跟就是說這個第六條如果說通過之後的這個執法我們其實兩個案子都有在做委外研究那有沒有可能全面性的納管\n報告委員其實我們在受理申請不管是現在的法律申請或以後的你們都是個案審查啦非常局限啦部長都已經跟你們開口了你們經管會要有積極作為啦好不好今天又有這個法條如果通過的話六條之一如果第六條或第六條之一通過的話你們應該要有積極的作為啊不要讓第一線的檢察官承擔太多嘛也不要讓打詐的這個風氣越來越猖獗嘛好不好\n可以嗎?好,謝謝主席。有請周秘書長。請周秘書長。秘書長,那兩本書還有那些會議資料有沒有收到?有收到,因為跳在中午就職你也可能去,所以我沒有…對啊,因為當天我們上個時候去住院啦,那後來隔天又禮拜六禮拜天啦,也不能送過去啦。那你很清楚我是針對書,不是針對你嘛,對不對?\n我看到你跌落在椅子裡頭啦。那我問一下,你有怕到嗎?\n當時是有一個驚訝而已啦。我不知道突然會有這個動作啦。倒沒有。因為有點刮的傷啦。所以刮一點點。因為不至於啦。因為不至於。那我還要問你一個實質的問題好了。\n剛剛鍾嘉斌委員在問說,未來的整個立法院公報是一個很重要的關鍵,也就是說沒有採取記名表格,那採取舉手表決的情況底下,依照我們立法院目前的這一個紀錄,不管是照片也好,錄影也好,有沒有辦法判別出來哪一些委員是屬於反對的,哪一些委員是贊成的,有沒有辦法判別?議員,剛剛有一些舉手表決不太可能會出名,除非你是\n對!對!對!議事人員有沒有可能依照這照片來判讀說哪一個人是屬於贊成或反對有沒有可能?如果要真正分析帶子是有可能的。又可以判決出來嗎?判斷了出來的話那我們以後立法院公報在公報的文字記錄上面可不可以記錄說哪些人贊成哪些人反對依照舉手表決的情況底下根據判決的判斷的一個基礎\n因為舉所表決的方式裏面啦一般來講是不會去考量所以您只會記錄說哪些人總人數哪些人贊成總人數還有哪些人反對總數而已不會用這種方式可是那將來如果找你去那個現場來作證的時候呢你又提供相關資料有沒有辦法作為判決的依據判準的依據那稍等稍等你委員的連續的贊成有沒有\n會有判決的依據我覺得你要站在一個議事中立的角色不要老是在那邊議事規則轉彎我提醒你你相助過黃國瑜你也相助過韓國瑜你要請黃國瑜多學學黃國瑜謝謝郭委員謝謝周秘書長跟委員會\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.145 --> 00:26.630\n因為11點半要開始處理提案所以這邊預作宣告我們就不再受理臨時提案謝謝主席主席有請我們法務部正部長以及我們銀行局局長還有政區局代表剛剛點到名的請上台報告部長\n\n00:30.314 --> 00:55.030\n部長好部長因為本席今天有洗房法的這個提案那洗房法的這個問題當中主要針對打詐打詐的部分現在詐騙集團的界面其實除了這個電話網路之外最關鍵的就是虛擬貨幣那現在虛擬貨幣幾乎是無政府狀態以至於這個詐騙集團的洗錢管道都朝向這個虛擬貨幣\n\n00:57.131 --> 01:15.606\n我上次在建清改的這個討論當中呢建清改的這個成員啊對於現階段金管會做非常地不滿那我想問站在法務部的這個部長的角色就他們不滿的一個很關鍵的一個原因就是呢金管會並沒有全面性的納管是選擇性的納管\n\n01:17.347 --> 01:34.194\n那也就是只有採取深度監管沒有採取廣度監管這種情況底下會有掛一落萬的情況底下造成了第一線的檢察人員檢察官負擔非常之重那你有沒有期待整個行政納管應該把它廣面化\n\n01:39.248 --> 02:00.993\n謝謝委員的關心這個議題那這個目前我們初期我們先做就是先做一個洗房法這樣的納管因為這也是經過多方的一個廣納意見那至於委員所提到的再更廣面更深度的納管我想我們可以做是再做一個我覺得你要強烈表達意見啊部長\n\n02:02.293 --> 02:24.633\n依照目前為止整個經管部經管會的內部從銀行局移撥到正期局也不過從23家變25家有法遵聲明而已到目前為止還有約六六六十家還有包括個人的幣商還有其他黑數很多都沒有納入管理的情況底下即便今天通過了所謂的登記制\n\n02:25.814 --> 02:45.159\n他有限度的這種限縮的方式也沒有辦法達到一個納管的一個目的也沒有達到一個洗錢防制的一個功能啊部長所以這一點你應該強烈的要求經管會做全面性的一個納管有沒有可能部長你可能對這個業務還不是非常清楚啦齁\n\n02:46.448 --> 03:06.309\n另外還有他們也期望強調要有差異化的管理也就是呢大規模金控呢跟小規模的當鋪呢每一個地方這些借錢的方式都不太一樣不可能承擔所有的一個管理成本的一個規模部長這個都是基層檢察官的心聲啊\n\n03:07.721 --> 03:29.274\n市長這個洗錢法目前還是在一個洗錢的防制那當然委員有關心的要普遍性的一個納管更深入納管我想這個我們也是有建立過金管會就專法有建立過金管會那我接下來請金管會金管會那個組長來那個部長已經有強烈的建議那你們看法怎麼樣\n\n03:30.653 --> 03:54.599\n報告委員就專法的部分我們已經有委外研究那大概在今年的九月底之前會有委外研究可是剛剛委員有講阿你可能要把洗錢洗房法當成母法阿你以後會有專法嗎確定嗎你們現在不是還在評估而已嗎報告委員其實專法跟就是說這個第六條如果說通過之後的這個執法我們其實兩個案子都有在做委外研究那有沒有可能全面性的納管\n\n03:56.368 --> 04:21.971\n報告委員其實我們在受理申請不管是現在的法律申請或以後的你們都是個案審查啦非常局限啦部長都已經跟你們開口了你們經管會要有積極作為啦好不好今天又有這個法條如果通過的話六條之一如果第六條或第六條之一通過的話你們應該要有積極的作為啊不要讓第一線的檢察官承擔太多嘛也不要讓打詐的這個風氣越來越猖獗嘛好不好\n\n04:22.671 --> 04:49.449\n可以嗎?好,謝謝主席。有請周秘書長。請周秘書長。秘書長,那兩本書還有那些會議資料有沒有收到?有收到,因為跳在中午就職你也可能去,所以我沒有…對啊,因為當天我們上個時候去住院啦,那後來隔天又禮拜六禮拜天啦,也不能送過去啦。那你很清楚我是針對書,不是針對你嘛,對不對?\n\n04:51.722 --> 04:53.384\n我看到你跌落在椅子裡頭啦。那我問一下,你有怕到嗎?\n\n05:18.295 --> 05:26.844\n當時是有一個驚訝而已啦。我不知道突然會有這個動作啦。倒沒有。因為有點刮的傷啦。所以刮一點點。因為不至於啦。因為不至於。那我還要問你一個實質的問題好了。\n\n05:38.185 --> 05:58.593\n剛剛鍾嘉斌委員在問說,未來的整個立法院公報是一個很重要的關鍵,也就是說沒有採取記名表格,那採取舉手表決的情況底下,依照我們立法院目前的這一個紀錄,不管是照片也好,錄影也好,有沒有辦法判別出來哪一些委員是屬於反對的,哪一些委員是贊成的,有沒有辦法判別?議員,剛剛有一些舉手表決不太可能會出名,除非你是\n\n06:08.466 --> 06:32.260\n對!對!對!議事人員有沒有可能依照這照片來判讀說哪一個人是屬於贊成或反對有沒有可能?如果要真正分析帶子是有可能的。又可以判決出來嗎?判斷了出來的話那我們以後立法院公報在公報的文字記錄上面可不可以記錄說哪些人贊成哪些人反對依照舉手表決的情況底下根據判決的判斷的一個基礎\n\n06:33.410 --> 06:55.938\n因為舉所表決的方式裏面啦一般來講是不會去考量所以您只會記錄說哪些人總人數哪些人贊成總人數還有哪些人反對總數而已不會用這種方式可是那將來如果找你去那個現場來作證的時候呢你又提供相關資料有沒有辦法作為判決的依據判準的依據那稍等稍等你委員的連續的贊成有沒有\n\n07:02.293 --> 07:12.340\n會有判決的依據我覺得你要站在一個議事中立的角色不要老是在那邊議事規則轉彎我提醒你你相助過黃國瑜你也相助過韓國瑜你要請黃國瑜多學學黃國瑜謝謝郭委員謝謝周秘書長跟委員會\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.145,"end":26.63,"text":"因為11點半要開始處理提案所以這邊預作宣告我們就不再受理臨時提案謝謝主席主席有請我們法務部正部長以及我們銀行局局長還有政區局代表剛剛點到名的請上台報告部長"},{"start":30.314,"end":55.03,"text":"部長好部長因為本席今天有洗房法的這個提案那洗房法的這個問題當中主要針對打詐打詐的部分現在詐騙集團的界面其實除了這個電話網路之外最關鍵的就是虛擬貨幣那現在虛擬貨幣幾乎是無政府狀態以至於這個詐騙集團的洗錢管道都朝向這個虛擬貨幣"},{"start":57.131,"end":75.606,"text":"我上次在建清改的這個討論當中呢建清改的這個成員啊對於現階段金管會做非常地不滿那我想問站在法務部的這個部長的角色就他們不滿的一個很關鍵的一個原因就是呢金管會並沒有全面性的納管是選擇性的納管"},{"start":77.347,"end":94.194,"text":"那也就是只有採取深度監管沒有採取廣度監管這種情況底下會有掛一落萬的情況底下造成了第一線的檢察人員檢察官負擔非常之重那你有沒有期待整個行政納管應該把它廣面化"},{"start":99.248,"end":120.993,"text":"謝謝委員的關心這個議題那這個目前我們初期我們先做就是先做一個洗房法這樣的納管因為這也是經過多方的一個廣納意見那至於委員所提到的再更廣面更深度的納管我想我們可以做是再做一個我覺得你要強烈表達意見啊部長"},{"start":122.293,"end":144.633,"text":"依照目前為止整個經管部經管會的內部從銀行局移撥到正期局也不過從23家變25家有法遵聲明而已到目前為止還有約六六六十家還有包括個人的幣商還有其他黑數很多都沒有納入管理的情況底下即便今天通過了所謂的登記制"},{"start":145.814,"end":165.159,"text":"他有限度的這種限縮的方式也沒有辦法達到一個納管的一個目的也沒有達到一個洗錢防制的一個功能啊部長所以這一點你應該強烈的要求經管會做全面性的一個納管有沒有可能部長你可能對這個業務還不是非常清楚啦齁"},{"start":166.448,"end":186.309,"text":"另外還有他們也期望強調要有差異化的管理也就是呢大規模金控呢跟小規模的當鋪呢每一個地方這些借錢的方式都不太一樣不可能承擔所有的一個管理成本的一個規模部長這個都是基層檢察官的心聲啊"},{"start":187.721,"end":209.274,"text":"市長這個洗錢法目前還是在一個洗錢的防制那當然委員有關心的要普遍性的一個納管更深入納管我想這個我們也是有建立過金管會就專法有建立過金管會那我接下來請金管會金管會那個組長來那個部長已經有強烈的建議那你們看法怎麼樣"},{"start":210.653,"end":234.599,"text":"報告委員就專法的部分我們已經有委外研究那大概在今年的九月底之前會有委外研究可是剛剛委員有講阿你可能要把洗錢洗房法當成母法阿你以後會有專法嗎確定嗎你們現在不是還在評估而已嗎報告委員其實專法跟就是說這個第六條如果說通過之後的這個執法我們其實兩個案子都有在做委外研究那有沒有可能全面性的納管"},{"start":236.368,"end":261.971,"text":"報告委員其實我們在受理申請不管是現在的法律申請或以後的你們都是個案審查啦非常局限啦部長都已經跟你們開口了你們經管會要有積極作為啦好不好今天又有這個法條如果通過的話六條之一如果第六條或第六條之一通過的話你們應該要有積極的作為啊不要讓第一線的檢察官承擔太多嘛也不要讓打詐的這個風氣越來越猖獗嘛好不好"},{"start":262.671,"end":289.449,"text":"可以嗎?好,謝謝主席。有請周秘書長。請周秘書長。秘書長,那兩本書還有那些會議資料有沒有收到?有收到,因為跳在中午就職你也可能去,所以我沒有…對啊,因為當天我們上個時候去住院啦,那後來隔天又禮拜六禮拜天啦,也不能送過去啦。那你很清楚我是針對書,不是針對你嘛,對不對?"},{"start":291.722,"end":293.384,"text":"我看到你跌落在椅子裡頭啦。那我問一下,你有怕到嗎?"},{"start":318.295,"end":326.844,"text":"當時是有一個驚訝而已啦。我不知道突然會有這個動作啦。倒沒有。因為有點刮的傷啦。所以刮一點點。因為不至於啦。因為不至於。那我還要問你一個實質的問題好了。"},{"start":338.185,"end":358.593,"text":"剛剛鍾嘉斌委員在問說,未來的整個立法院公報是一個很重要的關鍵,也就是說沒有採取記名表格,那採取舉手表決的情況底下,依照我們立法院目前的這一個紀錄,不管是照片也好,錄影也好,有沒有辦法判別出來哪一些委員是屬於反對的,哪一些委員是贊成的,有沒有辦法判別?議員,剛剛有一些舉手表決不太可能會出名,除非你是"},{"start":368.466,"end":392.26,"text":"對!對!對!議事人員有沒有可能依照這照片來判讀說哪一個人是屬於贊成或反對有沒有可能?如果要真正分析帶子是有可能的。又可以判決出來嗎?判斷了出來的話那我們以後立法院公報在公報的文字記錄上面可不可以記錄說哪些人贊成哪些人反對依照舉手表決的情況底下根據判決的判斷的一個基礎"},{"start":393.41,"end":415.938,"text":"因為舉所表決的方式裏面啦一般來講是不會去考量所以您只會記錄說哪些人總人數哪些人贊成總人數還有哪些人反對總數而已不會用這種方式可是那將來如果找你去那個現場來作證的時候呢你又提供相關資料有沒有辦法作為判決的依據判準的依據那稍等稍等你委員的連續的贊成有沒有"},{"start":422.293,"end":432.34,"text":"會有判決的依據我覺得你要站在一個議事中立的角色不要老是在那邊議事規則轉彎我提醒你你相助過黃國瑜你也相助過韓國瑜你要請黃國瑜多學學黃國瑜謝謝郭委員謝謝周秘書長跟委員會"}]}}}}