{"id":152925,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152925","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa45373810a4bb29468ed5d1368e7b3a1940ed34e896d657c5e831b1c8797d1715c815ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"12:18:40 - 12:29:37","影片長度":"00:10:57","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案7案。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":657,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T12:29:37+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T12:18:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":897,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（12時18分）謝謝召委，有請主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["范委員雲：主委早安。"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員早安。"],["范委員雲：先跟您借一、兩分鐘，因為我剛剛在辦公室聽質詢的時候赫然發現，葉元之委員剛剛還在，我想說他最好不要走，他除了在議會被發現定期會議10次會議中簽到10次、開會0次，上政論節目，罔顧議員的職責之外，來我們立法院是新任的委員，我是上一任的全勤委員，新任委員蹺班放棄質詢權，被大家指責，現在比較收斂一點，可是剛剛他居然在我們立委的質詢台把質詢當政論節目。我也上過政論節目，政論節目也可以嚴謹發言，但是他未經查證，信口開河栽贓同事，言論行為如同網軍，這難道不是藐視國會嗎？這種行為才是藐視國會。","今天我的主題不是性騷，范雲人生中沒有任意抹紅過任何人，也沒有任意說誰性騷，我人生中只有指稱過一位立委性騷，後來就被法院認證，人證、物證齊全，法院認證的性騷犯。他剛剛說我女權雙標，我不敢說我對他黨、本黨的作法完全一致，我們林宜瑾委員可以作證，本黨的原能會主委被報導性騷、性別歧視的時候，我們經過嚴縝瞭解，發現他們內部性騷制度的確有漏洞，我們公開主動要求行政院調查，而且我們說的是調查、說的是嫌疑，我們也沒有說他就是性騷犯。後來果然他被行政院調查，他的確有性別歧視相關的部分，就下台了。","其他政務委員有相關的事情，如果找我，我也協助他們，該道歉就道歉，民進黨的#MeToo事件發生，我主動協助內部建立健全的性別制度，我一直覺得制度比較好，我們國會的性平改革，民進黨接受我的版本。葉元之，你敢跟你們的性騷嫌疑犯說嗎？我非常尊重他，因為他們總召傅崐萁的案子未經調查，你敢跟他說不應該阻撓立法院不分黨派的制度保障嗎？有制度保障才不會讓性騷的指控淪為政治攻擊。葉元之，你敢做到這件事情、你敢跟陳雪生委員說「你應該跟范雲委員道歉」？至今從來沒有跟我道歉過。那我就相信你有一個性騷的標準，不要罵人家雙標了，連標準都沒有，連性騷定義都沒有。","我們回到今天的主題，我一定要嚴正駁斥，主委，我覺得剛剛您的話沒有講清楚，2021年我跟誰開記者會質疑清華大學，即您任教的地方？我是跟經濟民主連合，它是一個非常嚴謹的公民團體，也是最近非常擔心我們國會亂象的團體，他們發現，我經過查證之後覺得有這個問題。清華海峽研究院是清大的校友會跟對岸廈門市政府、北京清華大學成立的，未經向政府申報，就在清華大學校內的育成大樓內成立一個辦公室攬才、投資，引發各界擔心挖角我國高科技人才、竊取技術之疑慮。當經民連開記者會的時候，清大校方說未曾知悉。您剛剛有回應，當時是校長指派你去的，我當年也知道你不是路人甲，您是副校長，校長指派你去表示校方知悉，所以我沒有對你做人身攻擊，我是以副校長不是路人甲為由。這件事情我想請問主委，我們當時有亂指控嗎？請問您，這個被指控背後有中國資金、中方勢力的這個單位，清華海峽研究院目前有沒有在營運？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我目前不知道，因為……"],["范委員雲：您真的不知道？那您真的不關心跟您有關的事，目前沒有在營運。"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為當時也不是我的業務。"],["范委員雲：我知道，因為那是2016年的事情，我也收到好幾方人有幫您澄清，我說我們針對的是清華，新聞報導您是校長請你去揭幕，那是2016年的事情了，您知不知道後來這個自強基金會，就是清大校友會背後的這個臺灣民間團體有沒有被經濟部裁罰？您也不知道？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我也不知道。"],["范委員雲：我告訴你，他們有被裁罰。那您知不知道清華目前已經沒有在營運的清華海峽研究院有沒有被教育部裁罰？您也不知道。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我也不知道。"],["范委員雲：根據我跟教育部的確認，教育部的網站也有公告，2021年11月8號教育部公告，清華海峽研究院違反法令情事，立即停止其使用，並立即撤離。為什麼？它違反我們國家的兩岸人民關係條例第四十條之二，大陸地區之非營利法人、團體或其他機構，非經各該主管機關許可，不得在臺灣地區設立辦事處或分支機構，從事業務活動。這是違法的事，我們針對違法的事情，我們對於清大校方派副校長去揭幕、參加相關活動，說自己不知悉。我當天最重的話也只有說，清大這樣子，校方是不是有公然說謊的嫌疑？後來的確證明，這個案子就是違反法令，它已經沒有在運作，經濟部已經裁罰自強基金會，教育部也裁罰了清華海峽研究院的執行長，我們就不用說他是誰了。所以我想這是民間團體跟我做為一個教育文化委員會的委員，我們有證據就說到哪裡，然後剛才葉元之委員可以只是覺得您當時委屈，就把我變成是一個抹紅的立委，順便口吐髒水，此風不可長。也因為這個主題，我今天也要接著問您我很關心的主題，本來四題，因為他，今天只問一題。","如何防範國家科學技術成為中國滲透的工具？大家知道教育部跟經濟部很少裁罰學術相關的交流對不對？因為我們一向尊重大學自主，這也是為什麼會有這麼多人跟我陳情，我會去參加那個記者會，而且當時主要的證據就是經民連的研究員講的，我就我看到的部分覺得清華大學不可能不知悉。這件事情難道不嚴重嗎？我們看一下，美國說要採取小院高牆政策，他的晶片法案就是都不准在中國擴展，然後怎麼樣的技術必須要有國安審查，外資交易都要有國安審查。美國最信奉自由市場了，連美國都擔心，半導體、AI、生技等領域的外資交易要國安審查，你就知道臺灣是不是在最前線。我們也給大家一點例子，加拿大今年公布的敏感技術研究領域，點名來自中國85個機構試圖竊取加拿大的技術優勢，所以要求加拿大研究人員避開這些研究組織，否則就無法獲得聯邦資金。我們剛剛講到的清華的例子，大家可以看到，我們的國立大學都有這樣的一個危機跟不夠敏感，我並沒有說他主觀想要怎麼做。","您是國科會主委，過去的事情我知道您有澄清過了，所以我也沒有任何的發言，可是這件事情到現在還有人在帶這種風向，我真的覺得我們必須在敏感的科技領域研究防中滲透策略，之前我們的前主委非常關心這個議題，也有作出相關的一些機制，他也跟我們報告，我們有國家核心關鍵技術認定辦法，持續滾動檢討評估。今天剛好發生葉元之信口開河的事情，是不是主委您可以再談一下，您在國家核心關鍵技術的防中滲透策略，在我們前主委的努力下，您的看法跟立場是什麼？有沒有什麼未來要積極處理的部分？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們沒有改變態度，我們政府當然是以我們國家的發展、安全為優先，所以在自由民主的社會所訂定的相關國際規範，我們也會遵循，政府的政策、法令，我們都會遵循。剛剛范委員所提到的，協助我們國內的學術界、大學去遵循這些法令、限制，我們也會努力去做。"],["范委員雲：好，我相信很多人是希望能夠做國際學術交流，包含對岸，但是敏感科技的部分不能觸犯國家的法令。什麼是敏感科技，我覺得國科會有善盡提醒的義務，我們不希望任何一個人像清華大學一樣，再度觸犯法律被裁罰，這是有國家的法律在，主委您可以承諾善盡提醒的義務嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["范委員雲：主委，您說您完全不知道那個案子的後續發展，因為您被捲入其中，您是副校長，您當時不知道可以理解，由於您被捲入，也希望您瞭解一下後續發展好嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["范委員雲：因為這也是您職責相關的事情，謝謝主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員，范雲委員加油。主委請回。","現在請蔡易餘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":216,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","萬美玲","林倩綺","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","吳春城","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","賴士葆","范雲","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":155,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年\n度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案7案","agenda_id":"1135001_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"152925","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152925","tool":"pyannote","id":"152925-pyannote"},"job_id":"28WuEnphlZmrHOxv","queued_at":"2024-05-30 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\"持續滾動檢討評估今天剛好發生葉元智信口開河的事情是不是主委您可以再談一下您在國家核心關鍵的技術防中滲透策略在我們前主委的努力下您的看法跟立場是什麼有沒有什麼要積極未來處理的部分\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 549.418, \"end\": 551.859, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"滾\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"評\"}, {\"word\": \"估\", \"start\": 551.859, \"end\": 552.619, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 552.619, \"end\": 552.819, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 552.819, \"end\": 553.199, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 553.199, \"end\": 553.619, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 553.619, \"end\": 554.159, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"葉\"}, {\"word\": \"元\", \"start\": 554.159, \"end\": 554.419, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"智\", \"start\": 554.419, \"end\": 555.479, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 555.479, \"end\": 555.72, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"口\", \"start\": 555.72, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 568.663, \"end\": 568.983, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 568.983, \"end\": 569.183, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 569.183, \"end\": 569.363, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 569.363, \"end\": 569.743, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 569.743, \"end\": 569.883, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 569.883, \"end\": 570.323, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 570.323, \"end\": 570.423, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 570.423, \"end\": 570.523, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 570.523, \"end\": 570.683, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 570.683, \"end\": 571.003, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 571.003, \"end\": 572.503, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"積\"}, {\"word\": \"極\"}, {\"word\": \"未\", \"start\": 572.503, \"end\": 573.364, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 573.364, \"end\": 573.524, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 573.524, \"end\": 573.644, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 573.644, \"end\": 573.804, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 573.804, \"end\": 573.824, \"score\": 0.545}]}, {\"start\": 574.984, \"end\": 587.622, \"text\": \"我們沒有改變態度我們政府當然是以我們國家的發展安全為優先所以在我們在自由民主的社會所訂定的相關的這個國際的規範我們也會遵循\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 574.984, \"end\": 575.245, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 575.245, \"end\": 575.385, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 575.385, \"end\": 575.545, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"改\", \"start\": 575.545, \"end\": 576.166, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"變\"}, {\"word\": \"態\"}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 576.166, \"end\": 577.348, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 577.348, \"end\": 577.668, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", 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\"所\", \"start\": 582.595, \"end\": 582.815, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 582.815, \"end\": 583.036, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 583.036, \"end\": 583.857, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 583.857, \"end\": 584.257, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 584.257, \"end\": 584.898, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 584.898, \"end\": 585.038, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 585.038, \"end\": 585.159, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 585.159, \"end\": 585.359, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 585.359, \"end\": 585.459, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 585.459, \"end\": 585.599, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 585.599, \"end\": 586.02, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 586.02, \"end\": 586.26, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"訂\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 586.26, \"end\": 586.38, 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\"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 592.688, \"end\": 592.768, \"score\": 0.572}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 592.768, \"end\": 592.889, \"score\": 0.769}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 592.889, \"end\": 593.009, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 593.009, \"end\": 593.029, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 593.029, \"end\": 593.049, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 593.049, \"end\": 593.149, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 593.149, \"end\": 593.169, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 593.169, \"end\": 593.229, \"score\": 0.664}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 593.229, \"end\": 593.729, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"際\"}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 593.729, \"end\": 593.849, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"術\"}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 593.849, \"end\": 593.889, \"score\": 0.486}, {\"word\": \"流\", \"start\": 593.889, \"end\": 594.57, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 594.57, \"end\": 594.65, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"含\", \"start\": 594.65, \"end\": 594.67, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"岸\", \"start\": 594.67, \"end\": 594.69, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 612.941, \"end\": 636.384, \"text\": \"但是敏感科技的部分不能觸犯國家的法令什麼是敏感科技我覺得國科會有善盡提醒的義務我們不希望任何一個人像清華大學一樣再度觸犯法律被裁罰這是有國家的法令在那主委您可以承諾就是確定這件事情嗎善盡提醒的義務\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 612.941, \"end\": 613.081, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 613.081, \"end\": 613.261, \"score\": 0.735}, {\"word\": \"敏\", \"start\": 613.261, \"end\": 613.562, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"感\", \"start\": 613.562, \"end\": 613.862, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"科\", \"start\": 613.862, \"end\": 614.162, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"技\", \"start\": 614.162, \"end\": 614.302, \"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 614.302, \"end\": 614.463, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 614.463, \"end\": 614.683, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": 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653.501, \"score\": 0.764}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 653.501, \"end\": 653.662, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 653.662, \"end\": 653.802, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 653.802, \"end\": 653.882, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 653.882, \"end\": 654.122, \"score\": 0.692}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 654.122, \"end\": 654.142, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 654.142, \"end\": 654.162, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 654.162, \"end\": 654.182, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,329 --> 00:00:04,334\n主委早安,先跟您借一兩分鐘因為我剛剛在辦公室聽質詢的時候居然赫然發現議員之委員他剛還在我想說他最好不要走\n\n2\n00:00:22,961 --> 00:00:47,495\n他除了在議會被發現定期會議10次會議中簽到10次開會零次上爭論節目枉顧議員的職責之外來我們立法院剛新任委員我是上一任全勤委員新任委員翹班放棄質詢權被大家指責現在比較收斂一點可是呢\n\n3\n00:00:48,715 --> 00:01:07,227\n他居然在我們的立委的質詢台把質詢當政論節目我也上過政論節目政論節目也可以嚴謹發言但是他未經查證信口開河栽贓同事言論行為如同網軍這難道不是\n\n4\n00:01:08,428 --> 00:01:22,219\n妙視國會嗎?這種行為才是妙視國會。好,我今天的主題不是性騷,我講范雲人生沒有任意抹紅過任何人,抹紅,也沒有任意說誰性騷。我人生只有指稱過一位立委性騷,後來就被法院認證,人證、物證齊全,法院認證性騷犯。\n\n5\n00:01:32,206 --> 00:01:59,839\n他剛剛說我女權雙標我不敢說我對他黨本黨的做法完全一致我們移警委員可以作證本黨的原能會主委被報導性騷性別歧視的時候我們經過嚴整瞭解發現他們內部性騷制度的確有漏洞我們公開主動要求行政院要調查而且我們說的是調查說的是嫌疑我們也沒有說他就是性騷犯\n\n6\n00:02:00,959 --> 00:02:20,326\n後來果然他被刑罪院調查他的確有性別歧視相關的部分就下台了其他的政務委員有相關的事情如果找我我也協助他們該道歉就道歉民進黨的MeToo事件發生我主動協助內部建立健全的性別制度\n\n7\n00:02:20,686 --> 00:02:33,813\n我一直覺得制度比較好可是我們國會的性品改革民進黨接受的版本葉元之你敢跟你們的性騷嫌疑犯我非常尊重他因為他們總召的傅昆奇的案子未經調查敢跟他說不應該阻撓立法院就是說就是不分黨\n\n8\n00:02:40,757 --> 00:02:59,884\n一般的制度保障嗎?有制度保障才不會讓性騷的指控淪為政治攻擊我請你業人之你敢做到這件事情你敢跟你們的陳雪生委員說你應該跟范雲委員道歉至今從來沒有跟我道歉過我就相信你有一個性騷的標準\n\n9\n00:03:01,044 --> 00:03:09,391\n拜託不要罵人家雙標了連標準都沒有連性騷定義都沒有我們回到今天主題我一定要嚴正駁斥剛剛主委我覺得您話沒有講清楚2021年我跟誰開記者會質疑清華大學您任教的地方我是跟\n\n10\n00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:41,072\n經濟民主聯合他是一個非常嚴謹的公民團體也是最近非常的擔心我們國會亂象團體那他們發現我經過查證之後覺得有這個問題清華海峽研究院他是清大的校友會跟對岸廈門市政府北京清華大學成立的\n\n11\n00:03:42,193 --> 00:03:58,209\n未經政府申報就在清華大學校內的裕城大樓內成立一個辦公室攬財投資引發各界擔心挖角我國高科技人才竊取技術疑慮\n\n12\n00:04:00,190 --> 00:04:23,621\n當金明聯開記者會的時候清大校方說未曾知悉您剛剛有回應您當時是校長指派你去的我當年也知道說你不是路人甲您是副校長校長指派你去表示校方知悉所以我沒有對你做人身攻擊或是以副校長不是路人甲\n\n13\n00:04:26,322 --> 00:04:40,790\n請問主委我們當時有亂指控嗎請問您這個被指控背後有中國資金中方勢力的這個單位海峽清華海峽研究院目前有沒有在營運請問主委\n\n14\n00:04:42,830 --> 00:04:58,129\n我目前不知道因為...您真的不知道那您真的不關心跟您有關的事目前沒有在營運因為當時也不是我的業務我知道因為那是2016年的事情那您當時有我也收到好幾方人有跟有幫您澄清我說我們針對的是清華\n\n15\n00:04:59,651 --> 00:05:12,321\n您是新聞報導就是您是代表校長請你去揭幕那是2016年事情了那您知不知道後來這個自強基金會清大校友會就是這背後的這個臺灣的民營團體有沒有被經濟部裁罰\n\n16\n00:05:16,357 --> 00:05:30,565\n你也不知道我告訴你他們有被裁罰那您知不知道清華這個目前已經沒有在營運的清華海峽研究院有沒有被教育部裁罰您也不知道\n\n17\n00:05:31,825 --> 00:05:46,978\n根據我跟教育部的確認那教育部的網站也有公告2021年11月8號教育部公告這個清華海峽研究院違反法令情勢立即停止其使用並立即撤離為什麼?\n\n18\n00:05:48,719 --> 00:06:02,831\n他違反我們國家的兩岸人民關係條例大陸地區40支二條大陸地區之非營利法人團體或其他機構非經各該主管機關許可不得在台灣地區設立辦事處或分支機構從事業務活動\n\n19\n00:06:05,553 --> 00:06:25,266\n這是違法的事我們針對違法的事情我們對於清大校方派副校長去揭幕參加相關活動說自己不知悉我當天最重的話也就說清大這樣子校方是不是有說謊公然說謊的嫌疑後來的確證明這個案子他就是違反法令\n\n20\n00:06:25,666 --> 00:06:26,127\n蓬佩奧議員\n\n21\n00:06:46,969 --> 00:07:05,526\n據說透過您只是覺得您當時委屈就把我變成是一個抹紅的立委順便就是口吐髒水隨便此風不可漲那也因為這個主題我想我今天也要接著問您我很關心的主題我覺得本來四題因為他今天只問一題\n\n22\n00:07:07,372 --> 00:07:32,940\n如何防範國家科學及技術成為中國滲透的工具大家知道教育部跟經濟部很少財閥學術相關的交流對不對因為我們一向尊重大學自主這也是為什麼會有這麼多人跟我陳情我會去參加那個記者會而且當時主要的證據就是金明聯的研究員講的那我就我看到的部分覺得清華大學不可能不知其\n\n23\n00:07:33,660 --> 00:07:35,141\n這件事情難道不嚴重嗎?我們看一下美國說要採取小院高牆那他的晶片法案就是都必須要不准在中國擴展然後怎麼樣的技術必須要有國安審查外資交易都要有國安審查\n\n24\n00:07:52,395 --> 00:08:20,447\n美國最興奉自由市場了連美國都擔心半導體AI生技這些的外資交易要國安審查你就知道台灣是不是在最前線那我們也給大家一點例子就是加拿大今年公佈的敏感技術研究領域點名來自中國85個機構試圖竊取加拿大的技術優勢所以呢要求加拿大研究人員避開這些研究組織\n\n25\n00:08:22,047 --> 00:08:37,257\n離開這些研究組織我們剛講到的清華的例子大家可以看到我們的國立大學都有這樣子的一個我講的是危機了跟不夠敏感了我並沒有說他主觀想要怎麼做否則就無法獲得聯邦資金您是國科會過去的事情\n\n26\n00:08:39,679 --> 00:09:01,193\n我知道您有澄清過了所以我也沒有任何的發言可是這件事情到現在還有人在帶這種方向風向我真的覺得我們必須在敏感的科技領域的研究防中滲透策略之前我們的前主委他非常關心這個議題也有做出相關的一些機制他也跟我們報告我們有國家核心關鍵技術認定辦法\n\n27\n00:09:09,418 --> 00:09:33,824\n持續滾動檢討評估今天剛好發生葉元智信口開河的事情是不是主委您可以再談一下您在國家核心關鍵的技術防中滲透策略在我們前主委的努力下您的看法跟立場是什麼有沒有什麼要積極未來處理的部分\n\n28\n00:09:34,984 --> 00:09:47,622\n我們沒有改變態度我們政府當然是以我們國家的發展安全為優先所以在我們在自由民主的社會所訂定的相關的這個國際的規範我們也會遵循\n\n29\n00:09:52,088 --> 00:09:54,690\n我相信很多人是希望能夠做國際學術交流包含對岸\n\n30\n00:10:12,941 --> 00:10:36,384\n但是敏感科技的部分不能觸犯國家的法令什麼是敏感科技我覺得國科會有善盡提醒的義務我們不希望任何一個人像清華大學一樣再度觸犯法律被裁罰這是有國家的法令在那主委您可以承諾就是確定這件事情嗎善盡提醒的義務\n\n31\n00:10:38,907 --> 00:10:54,182\n主委,您說您完全不知道那個案子的後續發展因為您被捲入其中您是副校長那您當時不知道可以理解那您捲入其中也希望您了解一下後續發展好嗎?好,謝謝因為這也是您職責相關的事情好不好?謝謝主委謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n329\t4334\t主委早安,先跟您借一兩分鐘因為我剛剛在辦公室聽質詢的時候居然赫然發現議員之委員他剛還在我想說他最好不要走\n22961\t47495\t他除了在議會被發現定期會議10次會議中簽到10次開會零次上爭論節目枉顧議員的職責之外來我們立法院剛新任委員我是上一任全勤委員新任委員翹班放棄質詢權被大家指責現在比較收斂一點可是呢\n48715\t67227\t他居然在我們的立委的質詢台把質詢當政論節目我也上過政論節目政論節目也可以嚴謹發言但是他未經查證信口開河栽贓同事言論行為如同網軍這難道不是\n68428\t82219\t妙視國會嗎?這種行為才是妙視國會。好,我今天的主題不是性騷,我講范雲人生沒有任意抹紅過任何人,抹紅,也沒有任意說誰性騷。我人生只有指稱過一位立委性騷,後來就被法院認證,人證、物證齊全,法院認證性騷犯。\n92206\t119839\t他剛剛說我女權雙標我不敢說我對他黨本黨的做法完全一致我們移警委員可以作證本黨的原能會主委被報導性騷性別歧視的時候我們經過嚴整瞭解發現他們內部性騷制度的確有漏洞我們公開主動要求行政院要調查而且我們說的是調查說的是嫌疑我們也沒有說他就是性騷犯\n120959\t140326\t後來果然他被刑罪院調查他的確有性別歧視相關的部分就下台了其他的政務委員有相關的事情如果找我我也協助他們該道歉就道歉民進黨的MeToo事件發生我主動協助內部建立健全的性別制度\n140686\t153813\t我一直覺得制度比較好可是我們國會的性品改革民進黨接受的版本葉元之你敢跟你們的性騷嫌疑犯我非常尊重他因為他們總召的傅昆奇的案子未經調查敢跟他說不應該阻撓立法院就是說就是不分黨\n160757\t179884\t一般的制度保障嗎?有制度保障才不會讓性騷的指控淪為政治攻擊我請你業人之你敢做到這件事情你敢跟你們的陳雪生委員說你應該跟范雲委員道歉至今從來沒有跟我道歉過我就相信你有一個性騷的標準\n181044\t189391\t拜託不要罵人家雙標了連標準都沒有連性騷定義都沒有我們回到今天主題我一定要嚴正駁斥剛剛主委我覺得您話沒有講清楚2021年我跟誰開記者會質疑清華大學您任教的地方我是跟\n200680\t221072\t經濟民主聯合他是一個非常嚴謹的公民團體也是最近非常的擔心我們國會亂象團體那他們發現我經過查證之後覺得有這個問題清華海峽研究院他是清大的校友會跟對岸廈門市政府北京清華大學成立的\n222193\t238209\t未經政府申報就在清華大學校內的裕城大樓內成立一個辦公室攬財投資引發各界擔心挖角我國高科技人才竊取技術疑慮\n240190\t263621\t當金明聯開記者會的時候清大校方說未曾知悉您剛剛有回應您當時是校長指派你去的我當年也知道說你不是路人甲您是副校長校長指派你去表示校方知悉所以我沒有對你做人身攻擊或是以副校長不是路人甲\n266322\t280790\t請問主委我們當時有亂指控嗎請問您這個被指控背後有中國資金中方勢力的這個單位海峽清華海峽研究院目前有沒有在營運請問主委\n282830\t298129\t我目前不知道因為...您真的不知道那您真的不關心跟您有關的事目前沒有在營運因為當時也不是我的業務我知道因為那是2016年的事情那您當時有我也收到好幾方人有跟有幫您澄清我說我們針對的是清華\n299651\t312321\t您是新聞報導就是您是代表校長請你去揭幕那是2016年事情了那您知不知道後來這個自強基金會清大校友會就是這背後的這個臺灣的民營團體有沒有被經濟部裁罰\n316357\t330565\t你也不知道我告訴你他們有被裁罰那您知不知道清華這個目前已經沒有在營運的清華海峽研究院有沒有被教育部裁罰您也不知道\n331825\t346978\t根據我跟教育部的確認那教育部的網站也有公告2021年11月8號教育部公告這個清華海峽研究院違反法令情勢立即停止其使用並立即撤離為什麼?\n348719\t362831\t他違反我們國家的兩岸人民關係條例大陸地區40支二條大陸地區之非營利法人團體或其他機構非經各該主管機關許可不得在台灣地區設立辦事處或分支機構從事業務活動\n365553\t385266\t這是違法的事我們針對違法的事情我們對於清大校方派副校長去揭幕參加相關活動說自己不知悉我當天最重的話也就說清大這樣子校方是不是有說謊公然說謊的嫌疑後來的確證明這個案子他就是違反法令\n385666\t386127\t蓬佩奧議員\n406969\t425526\t據說透過您只是覺得您當時委屈就把我變成是一個抹紅的立委順便就是口吐髒水隨便此風不可漲那也因為這個主題我想我今天也要接著問您我很關心的主題我覺得本來四題因為他今天只問一題\n427372\t452940\t如何防範國家科學及技術成為中國滲透的工具大家知道教育部跟經濟部很少財閥學術相關的交流對不對因為我們一向尊重大學自主這也是為什麼會有這麼多人跟我陳情我會去參加那個記者會而且當時主要的證據就是金明聯的研究員講的那我就我看到的部分覺得清華大學不可能不知其\n453660\t455141\t這件事情難道不嚴重嗎?我們看一下美國說要採取小院高牆那他的晶片法案就是都必須要不准在中國擴展然後怎麼樣的技術必須要有國安審查外資交易都要有國安審查\n472395\t500447\t美國最興奉自由市場了連美國都擔心半導體AI生技這些的外資交易要國安審查你就知道台灣是不是在最前線那我們也給大家一點例子就是加拿大今年公佈的敏感技術研究領域點名來自中國85個機構試圖竊取加拿大的技術優勢所以呢要求加拿大研究人員避開這些研究組織\n502047\t517257\t離開這些研究組織我們剛講到的清華的例子大家可以看到我們的國立大學都有這樣子的一個我講的是危機了跟不夠敏感了我並沒有說他主觀想要怎麼做否則就無法獲得聯邦資金您是國科會過去的事情\n519679\t541193\t我知道您有澄清過了所以我也沒有任何的發言可是這件事情到現在還有人在帶這種方向風向我真的覺得我們必須在敏感的科技領域的研究防中滲透策略之前我們的前主委他非常關心這個議題也有做出相關的一些機制他也跟我們報告我們有國家核心關鍵技術認定辦法\n549418\t573824\t持續滾動檢討評估今天剛好發生葉元智信口開河的事情是不是主委您可以再談一下您在國家核心關鍵的技術防中滲透策略在我們前主委的努力下您的看法跟立場是什麼有沒有什麼要積極未來處理的部分\n574984\t587622\t我們沒有改變態度我們政府當然是以我們國家的發展安全為優先所以在我們在自由民主的社會所訂定的相關的這個國際的規範我們也會遵循\n592088\t594690\t我相信很多人是希望能夠做國際學術交流包含對岸\n612941\t636384\t但是敏感科技的部分不能觸犯國家的法令什麼是敏感科技我覺得國科會有善盡提醒的義務我們不希望任何一個人像清華大學一樣再度觸犯法律被裁罰這是有國家的法令在那主委您可以承諾就是確定這件事情嗎善盡提醒的義務\n638907\t654182\t主委,您說您完全不知道那個案子的後續發展因為您被捲入其中您是副校長那您當時不知道可以理解那您捲入其中也希望您了解一下後續發展好嗎?好,謝謝因為這也是您職責相關的事情好不好?謝謝主委謝謝委員\n","txt":"主委早安,先跟您借一兩分鐘因為我剛剛在辦公室聽質詢的時候居然赫然發現議員之委員他剛還在我想說他最好不要走\n他除了在議會被發現定期會議10次會議中簽到10次開會零次上爭論節目枉顧議員的職責之外來我們立法院剛新任委員我是上一任全勤委員新任委員翹班放棄質詢權被大家指責現在比較收斂一點可是呢\n他居然在我們的立委的質詢台把質詢當政論節目我也上過政論節目政論節目也可以嚴謹發言但是他未經查證信口開河栽贓同事言論行為如同網軍這難道不是\n妙視國會嗎?這種行為才是妙視國會。好,我今天的主題不是性騷,我講范雲人生沒有任意抹紅過任何人,抹紅,也沒有任意說誰性騷。我人生只有指稱過一位立委性騷,後來就被法院認證,人證、物證齊全,法院認證性騷犯。\n他剛剛說我女權雙標我不敢說我對他黨本黨的做法完全一致我們移警委員可以作證本黨的原能會主委被報導性騷性別歧視的時候我們經過嚴整瞭解發現他們內部性騷制度的確有漏洞我們公開主動要求行政院要調查而且我們說的是調查說的是嫌疑我們也沒有說他就是性騷犯\n後來果然他被刑罪院調查他的確有性別歧視相關的部分就下台了其他的政務委員有相關的事情如果找我我也協助他們該道歉就道歉民進黨的MeToo事件發生我主動協助內部建立健全的性別制度\n我一直覺得制度比較好可是我們國會的性品改革民進黨接受的版本葉元之你敢跟你們的性騷嫌疑犯我非常尊重他因為他們總召的傅昆奇的案子未經調查敢跟他說不應該阻撓立法院就是說就是不分黨\n一般的制度保障嗎?有制度保障才不會讓性騷的指控淪為政治攻擊我請你業人之你敢做到這件事情你敢跟你們的陳雪生委員說你應該跟范雲委員道歉至今從來沒有跟我道歉過我就相信你有一個性騷的標準\n拜託不要罵人家雙標了連標準都沒有連性騷定義都沒有我們回到今天主題我一定要嚴正駁斥剛剛主委我覺得您話沒有講清楚2021年我跟誰開記者會質疑清華大學您任教的地方我是跟\n經濟民主聯合他是一個非常嚴謹的公民團體也是最近非常的擔心我們國會亂象團體那他們發現我經過查證之後覺得有這個問題清華海峽研究院他是清大的校友會跟對岸廈門市政府北京清華大學成立的\n未經政府申報就在清華大學校內的裕城大樓內成立一個辦公室攬財投資引發各界擔心挖角我國高科技人才竊取技術疑慮\n當金明聯開記者會的時候清大校方說未曾知悉您剛剛有回應您當時是校長指派你去的我當年也知道說你不是路人甲您是副校長校長指派你去表示校方知悉所以我沒有對你做人身攻擊或是以副校長不是路人甲\n請問主委我們當時有亂指控嗎請問您這個被指控背後有中國資金中方勢力的這個單位海峽清華海峽研究院目前有沒有在營運請問主委\n我目前不知道因為...您真的不知道那您真的不關心跟您有關的事目前沒有在營運因為當時也不是我的業務我知道因為那是2016年的事情那您當時有我也收到好幾方人有跟有幫您澄清我說我們針對的是清華\n您是新聞報導就是您是代表校長請你去揭幕那是2016年事情了那您知不知道後來這個自強基金會清大校友會就是這背後的這個臺灣的民營團體有沒有被經濟部裁罰\n你也不知道我告訴你他們有被裁罰那您知不知道清華這個目前已經沒有在營運的清華海峽研究院有沒有被教育部裁罰您也不知道\n根據我跟教育部的確認那教育部的網站也有公告2021年11月8號教育部公告這個清華海峽研究院違反法令情勢立即停止其使用並立即撤離為什麼?\n他違反我們國家的兩岸人民關係條例大陸地區40支二條大陸地區之非營利法人團體或其他機構非經各該主管機關許可不得在台灣地區設立辦事處或分支機構從事業務活動\n這是違法的事我們針對違法的事情我們對於清大校方派副校長去揭幕參加相關活動說自己不知悉我當天最重的話也就說清大這樣子校方是不是有說謊公然說謊的嫌疑後來的確證明這個案子他就是違反法令\n蓬佩奧議員\n據說透過您只是覺得您當時委屈就把我變成是一個抹紅的立委順便就是口吐髒水隨便此風不可漲那也因為這個主題我想我今天也要接著問您我很關心的主題我覺得本來四題因為他今天只問一題\n如何防範國家科學及技術成為中國滲透的工具大家知道教育部跟經濟部很少財閥學術相關的交流對不對因為我們一向尊重大學自主這也是為什麼會有這麼多人跟我陳情我會去參加那個記者會而且當時主要的證據就是金明聯的研究員講的那我就我看到的部分覺得清華大學不可能不知其\n這件事情難道不嚴重嗎?我們看一下美國說要採取小院高牆那他的晶片法案就是都必須要不准在中國擴展然後怎麼樣的技術必須要有國安審查外資交易都要有國安審查\n美國最興奉自由市場了連美國都擔心半導體AI生技這些的外資交易要國安審查你就知道台灣是不是在最前線那我們也給大家一點例子就是加拿大今年公佈的敏感技術研究領域點名來自中國85個機構試圖竊取加拿大的技術優勢所以呢要求加拿大研究人員避開這些研究組織\n離開這些研究組織我們剛講到的清華的例子大家可以看到我們的國立大學都有這樣子的一個我講的是危機了跟不夠敏感了我並沒有說他主觀想要怎麼做否則就無法獲得聯邦資金您是國科會過去的事情\n我知道您有澄清過了所以我也沒有任何的發言可是這件事情到現在還有人在帶這種方向風向我真的覺得我們必須在敏感的科技領域的研究防中滲透策略之前我們的前主委他非常關心這個議題也有做出相關的一些機制他也跟我們報告我們有國家核心關鍵技術認定辦法\n持續滾動檢討評估今天剛好發生葉元智信口開河的事情是不是主委您可以再談一下您在國家核心關鍵的技術防中滲透策略在我們前主委的努力下您的看法跟立場是什麼有沒有什麼要積極未來處理的部分\n我們沒有改變態度我們政府當然是以我們國家的發展安全為優先所以在我們在自由民主的社會所訂定的相關的這個國際的規範我們也會遵循\n我相信很多人是希望能夠做國際學術交流包含對岸\n但是敏感科技的部分不能觸犯國家的法令什麼是敏感科技我覺得國科會有善盡提醒的義務我們不希望任何一個人像清華大學一樣再度觸犯法律被裁罰這是有國家的法令在那主委您可以承諾就是確定這件事情嗎善盡提醒的義務\n主委,您說您完全不知道那個案子的後續發展因為您被捲入其中您是副校長那您當時不知道可以理解那您捲入其中也希望您了解一下後續發展好嗎?好,謝謝因為這也是您職責相關的事情好不好?謝謝主委謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.329 --> 00:04.334\n主委早安,先跟您借一兩分鐘因為我剛剛在辦公室聽質詢的時候居然赫然發現議員之委員他剛還在我想說他最好不要走\n\n00:22.961 --> 00:47.495\n他除了在議會被發現定期會議10次會議中簽到10次開會零次上爭論節目枉顧議員的職責之外來我們立法院剛新任委員我是上一任全勤委員新任委員翹班放棄質詢權被大家指責現在比較收斂一點可是呢\n\n00:48.715 --> 01:07.227\n他居然在我們的立委的質詢台把質詢當政論節目我也上過政論節目政論節目也可以嚴謹發言但是他未經查證信口開河栽贓同事言論行為如同網軍這難道不是\n\n01:08.428 --> 01:22.219\n妙視國會嗎?這種行為才是妙視國會。好,我今天的主題不是性騷,我講范雲人生沒有任意抹紅過任何人,抹紅,也沒有任意說誰性騷。我人生只有指稱過一位立委性騷,後來就被法院認證,人證、物證齊全,法院認證性騷犯。\n\n01:32.206 --> 01:59.839\n他剛剛說我女權雙標我不敢說我對他黨本黨的做法完全一致我們移警委員可以作證本黨的原能會主委被報導性騷性別歧視的時候我們經過嚴整瞭解發現他們內部性騷制度的確有漏洞我們公開主動要求行政院要調查而且我們說的是調查說的是嫌疑我們也沒有說他就是性騷犯\n\n02:00.959 --> 02:20.326\n後來果然他被刑罪院調查他的確有性別歧視相關的部分就下台了其他的政務委員有相關的事情如果找我我也協助他們該道歉就道歉民進黨的MeToo事件發生我主動協助內部建立健全的性別制度\n\n02:20.686 --> 02:33.813\n我一直覺得制度比較好可是我們國會的性品改革民進黨接受的版本葉元之你敢跟你們的性騷嫌疑犯我非常尊重他因為他們總召的傅昆奇的案子未經調查敢跟他說不應該阻撓立法院就是說就是不分黨\n\n02:40.757 --> 02:59.884\n一般的制度保障嗎?有制度保障才不會讓性騷的指控淪為政治攻擊我請你業人之你敢做到這件事情你敢跟你們的陳雪生委員說你應該跟范雲委員道歉至今從來沒有跟我道歉過我就相信你有一個性騷的標準\n\n03:01.044 --> 03:09.391\n拜託不要罵人家雙標了連標準都沒有連性騷定義都沒有我們回到今天主題我一定要嚴正駁斥剛剛主委我覺得您話沒有講清楚2021年我跟誰開記者會質疑清華大學您任教的地方我是跟\n\n03:20.680 --> 03:41.072\n經濟民主聯合他是一個非常嚴謹的公民團體也是最近非常的擔心我們國會亂象團體那他們發現我經過查證之後覺得有這個問題清華海峽研究院他是清大的校友會跟對岸廈門市政府北京清華大學成立的\n\n03:42.193 --> 03:58.209\n未經政府申報就在清華大學校內的裕城大樓內成立一個辦公室攬財投資引發各界擔心挖角我國高科技人才竊取技術疑慮\n\n04:00.190 --> 04:23.621\n當金明聯開記者會的時候清大校方說未曾知悉您剛剛有回應您當時是校長指派你去的我當年也知道說你不是路人甲您是副校長校長指派你去表示校方知悉所以我沒有對你做人身攻擊或是以副校長不是路人甲\n\n04:26.322 --> 04:40.790\n請問主委我們當時有亂指控嗎請問您這個被指控背後有中國資金中方勢力的這個單位海峽清華海峽研究院目前有沒有在營運請問主委\n\n04:42.830 --> 04:58.129\n我目前不知道因為...您真的不知道那您真的不關心跟您有關的事目前沒有在營運因為當時也不是我的業務我知道因為那是2016年的事情那您當時有我也收到好幾方人有跟有幫您澄清我說我們針對的是清華\n\n04:59.651 --> 05:12.321\n您是新聞報導就是您是代表校長請你去揭幕那是2016年事情了那您知不知道後來這個自強基金會清大校友會就是這背後的這個臺灣的民營團體有沒有被經濟部裁罰\n\n05:16.357 --> 05:30.565\n你也不知道我告訴你他們有被裁罰那您知不知道清華這個目前已經沒有在營運的清華海峽研究院有沒有被教育部裁罰您也不知道\n\n05:31.825 --> 05:46.978\n根據我跟教育部的確認那教育部的網站也有公告2021年11月8號教育部公告這個清華海峽研究院違反法令情勢立即停止其使用並立即撤離為什麼?\n\n05:48.719 --> 06:02.831\n他違反我們國家的兩岸人民關係條例大陸地區40支二條大陸地區之非營利法人團體或其他機構非經各該主管機關許可不得在台灣地區設立辦事處或分支機構從事業務活動\n\n06:05.553 --> 06:25.266\n這是違法的事我們針對違法的事情我們對於清大校方派副校長去揭幕參加相關活動說自己不知悉我當天最重的話也就說清大這樣子校方是不是有說謊公然說謊的嫌疑後來的確證明這個案子他就是違反法令\n\n06:25.666 --> 06:26.127\n蓬佩奧議員\n\n06:46.969 --> 07:05.526\n據說透過您只是覺得您當時委屈就把我變成是一個抹紅的立委順便就是口吐髒水隨便此風不可漲那也因為這個主題我想我今天也要接著問您我很關心的主題我覺得本來四題因為他今天只問一題\n\n07:07.372 --> 07:32.940\n如何防範國家科學及技術成為中國滲透的工具大家知道教育部跟經濟部很少財閥學術相關的交流對不對因為我們一向尊重大學自主這也是為什麼會有這麼多人跟我陳情我會去參加那個記者會而且當時主要的證據就是金明聯的研究員講的那我就我看到的部分覺得清華大學不可能不知其\n\n07:33.660 --> 07:35.141\n這件事情難道不嚴重嗎?我們看一下美國說要採取小院高牆那他的晶片法案就是都必須要不准在中國擴展然後怎麼樣的技術必須要有國安審查外資交易都要有國安審查\n\n07:52.395 --> 08:20.447\n美國最興奉自由市場了連美國都擔心半導體AI生技這些的外資交易要國安審查你就知道台灣是不是在最前線那我們也給大家一點例子就是加拿大今年公佈的敏感技術研究領域點名來自中國85個機構試圖竊取加拿大的技術優勢所以呢要求加拿大研究人員避開這些研究組織\n\n08:22.047 --> 08:37.257\n離開這些研究組織我們剛講到的清華的例子大家可以看到我們的國立大學都有這樣子的一個我講的是危機了跟不夠敏感了我並沒有說他主觀想要怎麼做否則就無法獲得聯邦資金您是國科會過去的事情\n\n08:39.679 --> 09:01.193\n我知道您有澄清過了所以我也沒有任何的發言可是這件事情到現在還有人在帶這種方向風向我真的覺得我們必須在敏感的科技領域的研究防中滲透策略之前我們的前主委他非常關心這個議題也有做出相關的一些機制他也跟我們報告我們有國家核心關鍵技術認定辦法\n\n09:09.418 --> 09:33.824\n持續滾動檢討評估今天剛好發生葉元智信口開河的事情是不是主委您可以再談一下您在國家核心關鍵的技術防中滲透策略在我們前主委的努力下您的看法跟立場是什麼有沒有什麼要積極未來處理的部分\n\n09:34.984 --> 09:47.622\n我們沒有改變態度我們政府當然是以我們國家的發展安全為優先所以在我們在自由民主的社會所訂定的相關的這個國際的規範我們也會遵循\n\n09:52.088 --> 09:54.690\n我相信很多人是希望能夠做國際學術交流包含對岸\n\n10:12.941 --> 10:36.384\n但是敏感科技的部分不能觸犯國家的法令什麼是敏感科技我覺得國科會有善盡提醒的義務我們不希望任何一個人像清華大學一樣再度觸犯法律被裁罰這是有國家的法令在那主委您可以承諾就是確定這件事情嗎善盡提醒的義務\n\n10:38.907 --> 10:54.182\n主委,您說您完全不知道那個案子的後續發展因為您被捲入其中您是副校長那您當時不知道可以理解那您捲入其中也希望您了解一下後續發展好嗎?好,謝謝因為這也是您職責相關的事情好不好?謝謝主委謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.329,"end":4.334,"text":"主委早安,先跟您借一兩分鐘因為我剛剛在辦公室聽質詢的時候居然赫然發現議員之委員他剛還在我想說他最好不要走"},{"start":22.961,"end":47.495,"text":"他除了在議會被發現定期會議10次會議中簽到10次開會零次上爭論節目枉顧議員的職責之外來我們立法院剛新任委員我是上一任全勤委員新任委員翹班放棄質詢權被大家指責現在比較收斂一點可是呢"},{"start":48.715,"end":67.227,"text":"他居然在我們的立委的質詢台把質詢當政論節目我也上過政論節目政論節目也可以嚴謹發言但是他未經查證信口開河栽贓同事言論行為如同網軍這難道不是"},{"start":68.428,"end":82.219,"text":"妙視國會嗎?這種行為才是妙視國會。好,我今天的主題不是性騷,我講范雲人生沒有任意抹紅過任何人,抹紅,也沒有任意說誰性騷。我人生只有指稱過一位立委性騷,後來就被法院認證,人證、物證齊全,法院認證性騷犯。"},{"start":92.206,"end":119.839,"text":"他剛剛說我女權雙標我不敢說我對他黨本黨的做法完全一致我們移警委員可以作證本黨的原能會主委被報導性騷性別歧視的時候我們經過嚴整瞭解發現他們內部性騷制度的確有漏洞我們公開主動要求行政院要調查而且我們說的是調查說的是嫌疑我們也沒有說他就是性騷犯"},{"start":120.959,"end":140.326,"text":"後來果然他被刑罪院調查他的確有性別歧視相關的部分就下台了其他的政務委員有相關的事情如果找我我也協助他們該道歉就道歉民進黨的MeToo事件發生我主動協助內部建立健全的性別制度"},{"start":140.686,"end":153.813,"text":"我一直覺得制度比較好可是我們國會的性品改革民進黨接受的版本葉元之你敢跟你們的性騷嫌疑犯我非常尊重他因為他們總召的傅昆奇的案子未經調查敢跟他說不應該阻撓立法院就是說就是不分黨"},{"start":160.757,"end":179.884,"text":"一般的制度保障嗎?有制度保障才不會讓性騷的指控淪為政治攻擊我請你業人之你敢做到這件事情你敢跟你們的陳雪生委員說你應該跟范雲委員道歉至今從來沒有跟我道歉過我就相信你有一個性騷的標準"},{"start":181.044,"end":189.391,"text":"拜託不要罵人家雙標了連標準都沒有連性騷定義都沒有我們回到今天主題我一定要嚴正駁斥剛剛主委我覺得您話沒有講清楚2021年我跟誰開記者會質疑清華大學您任教的地方我是跟"},{"start":200.68,"end":221.072,"text":"經濟民主聯合他是一個非常嚴謹的公民團體也是最近非常的擔心我們國會亂象團體那他們發現我經過查證之後覺得有這個問題清華海峽研究院他是清大的校友會跟對岸廈門市政府北京清華大學成立的"},{"start":222.193,"end":238.209,"text":"未經政府申報就在清華大學校內的裕城大樓內成立一個辦公室攬財投資引發各界擔心挖角我國高科技人才竊取技術疑慮"},{"start":240.19,"end":263.621,"text":"當金明聯開記者會的時候清大校方說未曾知悉您剛剛有回應您當時是校長指派你去的我當年也知道說你不是路人甲您是副校長校長指派你去表示校方知悉所以我沒有對你做人身攻擊或是以副校長不是路人甲"},{"start":266.322,"end":280.79,"text":"請問主委我們當時有亂指控嗎請問您這個被指控背後有中國資金中方勢力的這個單位海峽清華海峽研究院目前有沒有在營運請問主委"},{"start":282.83,"end":298.129,"text":"我目前不知道因為...您真的不知道那您真的不關心跟您有關的事目前沒有在營運因為當時也不是我的業務我知道因為那是2016年的事情那您當時有我也收到好幾方人有跟有幫您澄清我說我們針對的是清華"},{"start":299.651,"end":312.321,"text":"您是新聞報導就是您是代表校長請你去揭幕那是2016年事情了那您知不知道後來這個自強基金會清大校友會就是這背後的這個臺灣的民營團體有沒有被經濟部裁罰"},{"start":316.357,"end":330.565,"text":"你也不知道我告訴你他們有被裁罰那您知不知道清華這個目前已經沒有在營運的清華海峽研究院有沒有被教育部裁罰您也不知道"},{"start":331.825,"end":346.978,"text":"根據我跟教育部的確認那教育部的網站也有公告2021年11月8號教育部公告這個清華海峽研究院違反法令情勢立即停止其使用並立即撤離為什麼?"},{"start":348.719,"end":362.831,"text":"他違反我們國家的兩岸人民關係條例大陸地區40支二條大陸地區之非營利法人團體或其他機構非經各該主管機關許可不得在台灣地區設立辦事處或分支機構從事業務活動"},{"start":365.553,"end":385.266,"text":"這是違法的事我們針對違法的事情我們對於清大校方派副校長去揭幕參加相關活動說自己不知悉我當天最重的話也就說清大這樣子校方是不是有說謊公然說謊的嫌疑後來的確證明這個案子他就是違反法令"},{"start":385.666,"end":386.127,"text":"蓬佩奧議員"},{"start":406.969,"end":425.526,"text":"據說透過您只是覺得您當時委屈就把我變成是一個抹紅的立委順便就是口吐髒水隨便此風不可漲那也因為這個主題我想我今天也要接著問您我很關心的主題我覺得本來四題因為他今天只問一題"},{"start":427.372,"end":452.94,"text":"如何防範國家科學及技術成為中國滲透的工具大家知道教育部跟經濟部很少財閥學術相關的交流對不對因為我們一向尊重大學自主這也是為什麼會有這麼多人跟我陳情我會去參加那個記者會而且當時主要的證據就是金明聯的研究員講的那我就我看到的部分覺得清華大學不可能不知其"},{"start":453.66,"end":455.141,"text":"這件事情難道不嚴重嗎?我們看一下美國說要採取小院高牆那他的晶片法案就是都必須要不准在中國擴展然後怎麼樣的技術必須要有國安審查外資交易都要有國安審查"},{"start":472.395,"end":500.447,"text":"美國最興奉自由市場了連美國都擔心半導體AI生技這些的外資交易要國安審查你就知道台灣是不是在最前線那我們也給大家一點例子就是加拿大今年公佈的敏感技術研究領域點名來自中國85個機構試圖竊取加拿大的技術優勢所以呢要求加拿大研究人員避開這些研究組織"},{"start":502.047,"end":517.257,"text":"離開這些研究組織我們剛講到的清華的例子大家可以看到我們的國立大學都有這樣子的一個我講的是危機了跟不夠敏感了我並沒有說他主觀想要怎麼做否則就無法獲得聯邦資金您是國科會過去的事情"},{"start":519.679,"end":541.193,"text":"我知道您有澄清過了所以我也沒有任何的發言可是這件事情到現在還有人在帶這種方向風向我真的覺得我們必須在敏感的科技領域的研究防中滲透策略之前我們的前主委他非常關心這個議題也有做出相關的一些機制他也跟我們報告我們有國家核心關鍵技術認定辦法"},{"start":549.418,"end":573.824,"text":"持續滾動檢討評估今天剛好發生葉元智信口開河的事情是不是主委您可以再談一下您在國家核心關鍵的技術防中滲透策略在我們前主委的努力下您的看法跟立場是什麼有沒有什麼要積極未來處理的部分"},{"start":574.984,"end":587.622,"text":"我們沒有改變態度我們政府當然是以我們國家的發展安全為優先所以在我們在自由民主的社會所訂定的相關的這個國際的規範我們也會遵循"},{"start":592.088,"end":594.69,"text":"我相信很多人是希望能夠做國際學術交流包含對岸"},{"start":612.941,"end":636.384,"text":"但是敏感科技的部分不能觸犯國家的法令什麼是敏感科技我覺得國科會有善盡提醒的義務我們不希望任何一個人像清華大學一樣再度觸犯法律被裁罰這是有國家的法令在那主委您可以承諾就是確定這件事情嗎善盡提醒的義務"},{"start":638.907,"end":654.182,"text":"主委,您說您完全不知道那個案子的後續發展因為您被捲入其中您是副校長那您當時不知道可以理解那您捲入其中也希望您了解一下後續發展好嗎?好,謝謝因為這也是您職責相關的事情好不好?謝謝主委謝謝委員"}]}}}}