{"id":152930,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152930","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa4530758d76e68d5212a9f2fcaa3dc194f73d34e896d657c5e837a0ad4916a9baa255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"12:34:58 - 12:46:34","影片長度":"00:11:36","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":696,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T12:46:34+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T12:34:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1178,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時35分）謝謝召委，麻煩請何部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好，首先很高興、也要誇你一下有這個勇氣及擔當來擔任勞動部部長這個重責大任的職位。勞動政策攸關全體國民的生活水準與健康安全，以及我們國家的經濟發展與國際競爭力，如果沒有勞工的支持，任何一個政黨都沒有辦法贏得執政的機會，所以勞工相當重要，我想部長也一定知道這個問題的嚴重性。","首先，我有8個字要送給部長：偏聽則廢，兼聽則明。過去部長擔任柯總召辦公室主任及8年行政院副秘書長的職務，我也見證了這些歲月，相信部長對於整個溝通協調很難有人可以出其右。現在您擔任部長，必須要做政策、決定及辯護，可是問題的專業及複雜往往都是牽一髮而動全身，所以除了文官的意見，建議部長未來也可以多聽事業單位及工會團體的意見，再加上專家學者的意見，再去思考問題應該要如何解決，特別是涉及勞動條件及職安衛的檢查部分。","我要舉一個例子，就是過去我曾經提醒勞動條件是否具有限期改善的空間，我們看一下簡報，這個部分在勞動檢查法第二十五條裡面明定確實有改善的空間，我也特別請教當過你們政務次長的法學教授，他也認為是可以的，而且勞基法第一條「本法未規定者，適用其他法律之規定」，也沒有說不可以。以前在地方執行的時候，也都是有空間的，但是自從你們的現任主秘、也就是過去的職安署劉傳名前署長搞了一個勞條大軍之後，就變成抓到就要罰，尤其是在一例一休的修法期間，曾經有事業單位計算勞工薪資因為差了1.33元，沒有辦法除盡，沒有四捨五入，差了幾塊錢，就要被罰2萬，甚至還有官員沾沾自喜地跟我們說：我的紀錄是差0.6元，我也是罰2萬塊錢。而且更可惡的是，在罰鍰之後，並不代表勞工就可以領到他們應有的權益，因為你們就只管收罰款，雇主沒有支付勞工加班費的部分，你們實際上沒有真的很關心。部長，就這件事情，你是不是願意去瞭解，看看我講的到底是不是真的？好。","我再舉一個例子，就是職業災害勞工受傷之後，面對雇主不聞不問，請問職安署能夠實質幫助到勞工什麼？最近這幾天我接到的一個案例是來自新竹的一位阿美族原住民，他是板模工，他在工作的時候眼睛受傷，到現在視力還沒有恢復。這個職災發生之後，雇主是沒有通報的，竟然是職災勞工的親友自己去通報職災，然後雇主就被勞檢了，職安署也是跳過勞檢法第二十五條的改善期，直接一共罰了雇主19萬，然後就告訴我們這件事情已經結案了，還沒完喔，並且是請職災勞工自己去申請職災調查報告，如果雇主仍然不補償，就請職災勞工自己上法院去提告。因為雇主已經被你們職安署給罰了，所以雇主認為他本來要付給勞工的原領工資及醫療補償等等就不再給付了。部長，你們職安署原來是在跟這些職災勞工搶錢喔，這很奇怪耶！我覺得完全是很不像話的一件事情，我也很好奇，鄒署長上任已經邁入第8年了，將近8年來，為了權益受損的這些勞工，你們實質上幫他們討回了什麼？為什麼不根據調查報告的結果，主動給予必要的協助？如果職災調查報告只是為了行政上的結案，或者是為了要做裁罰的需要，而不是為了職災勞工權益的保障，這樣的報告到底有什麼意義？調查報告全部都是封在職安署的藏經閣裡面，負責職災給付的勞保局，你們看不到嘛，還有負責照顧職災勞工的法人，他們也看不到，因為你們的系統是停留在恐龍時代，我覺得調查報告起碼要跟這兩個單位連線啊！省得公文往返，因為要發文才能調調查報告，甚至這兩個單位及我們辦公室能不能拿到調查報告，都還要看鄒署長的臉色，如果給了，是不是叫施捨？不給，他就講是個資啊！你們都可以這樣講嘛！所以部長，你知道嗎？在職業安全衛生法裡面的規範都是雇主責任，雇主必須要提供安全衛生的環境、教育訓練、提供安全的設備、機具跟個人防護的設備，而勞工有遵守的義務；如果勞工沒有遵守，雇主也必須要做安全衛生的管理，怎麼可以說發生職災之後，就可以不聞不問？職安署在檢查完之後，結果職安署完成調查報告也跟著不聞不問了，連這個檢查報告也都不能提供，只藏在他們職安署裡面。部長，這些都是會產生民怨的，我今天特別再點出來，您新上任，真的這個問題很普遍，常常在發生，你真的可以好好去瞭解一下。","我今天跟部長談的，都是過去我在質詢的時候有提過、有遇到的問題，因為本席是原住民選出的立法委員，原住民勞工實際就業人數其實是超過26萬人，我們總共大概有五十多萬人，實際就業有26萬人，但是實際加入勞保的人數大概只有18萬人左右，而且原住民勞工具有三高一低的現象，就是高職災、非典型的就業也高、失業率也高，唯一低的就是我們的薪資，這些資料可以從原住民就業調查報告，以及你們的職災統計數據就可以知道，為了解決這些問題，我的提案是不是可以用就安基金補助聘用原住民的雇主，用勞保保費的一半。我現在要講的這句話大家都沒有想到的，我今天要強調、再強調，我剛剛講的這些錢不是直接進到雇主的口袋，這些錢最後最後都會全部進入勞工口袋的給付，我覺得這個觀念大家要弄清楚，包括這些審議委員，大家要弄清楚，這些錢最後都是要進入原住民勞工口袋的給付。勞保局有精算過，費用大概要3億，而且能造成的效益，包括勞保投保人數增加、保費收入也增加，這些人變成正式的勞工，所以非典就業的比例就降低了，因為成為正式的員工，所以薪資的資料就更完整了，所得稅的預期也會增加，可以說是邊際效益更好的結果。但是有些人故意去提公平性的問題，而不支持，我在這邊要請教了，因為就安基金不就是要促進國民就業，我們對於高齡、婦女、育嬰留職停薪、職災預防、青少年，不是都有利用就安基金來穩定就業嗎？我剛剛點到這些族群的共通點，就是他們都是弱勢，而原住民勞工就是在最底層、最基層的勞動力，也更是弱勢中的弱勢，他們就很難被協助到，所以希望部長可以好好再重新思考這個問題，就是讓原住民勞工的三高問題可以因此得到解決。最後，期許部長可以成為勞工最有感的勞動部長。"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：我剛剛講那麼多，請部長簡短回應一下，好不好？這是很重要的問題。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，你提的職安署問題，我回去會馬上要求，這個資料內部至少要能夠互相串接的。"],["陳委員瑩：對！"],["何部長佩珊：因為職安署跟職災中心大家都在做同樣的事情，至少資料應該互相分享、互相瞭解。"],["陳委員瑩：沒錯。以後就不要在那邊發文，還要看你們同不同意。"],["何部長佩珊：是，回去我們會內部檢討，好嗎？"],["陳委員瑩：對，在提案的部分，我剛剛講的最重要的概念是這個錢最後都要進勞工的口袋。"],["何部長佩珊：對，主要是就安基金能不能符合去補助原民勞保費用，因為確實牽涉到就保法，就保法本身也有它的限制啦。"],["陳委員瑩：因為我覺得在前面……"],["何部長佩珊：對不起！是就安基金本身的……"],["陳委員瑩：部長你剛上任，我們還沒有跟辦公室實質討論這個問題，我覺得可能你前面得到的資訊，也未必是完整或者是正確的，我想這個過程當中，還有一些我們需要再溝通的部分，我們再……"],["何部長佩珊：在就安基金的部分，我們內部再來討論看看，好嗎？"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員。","接下來請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":464,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王育敏","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","鄭天財Sra 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\"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 208.487, \"end\": 208.507, \"score\": 0.81}]}, {\"start\": 210.404, \"end\": 237.056, \"text\": \"那我再舉一個例子喔就是職業災害勞工受傷之後呢面對雇主不聞不問那請問職安署呢你們能夠實質幫助到勞工什麼因為我這裡就這幾天我接到的最近接到的一個案例這是來自新竹的一位阿美族的這個原住民喔他是板磨工那他在工作的時候呢他眼睛受傷到現在視力還沒有恢復那\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 210.404, \"end\": 210.524, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 210.524, \"end\": 210.624, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 210.624, \"end\": 210.884, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"舉\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 210.884, \"end\": 211.104, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 211.104, \"end\": 211.344, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 211.344, \"end\": 211.504, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"喔\", \"start\": 211.504, \"end\": 211.985, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 211.985, \"end\": 212.125, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 212.125, \"end\": 212.925, \"score\": 0.924}, 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{\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 248.707, \"end\": 249.208, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"親\"}, {\"word\": \"友\", \"start\": 249.208, \"end\": 249.508, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 249.508, \"end\": 250.429, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 250.429, \"end\": 250.569, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 250.569, \"end\": 250.73, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 250.73, \"end\": 252.031, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"災\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 252.031, \"end\": 252.251, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 252.251, \"end\": 252.471, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 252.471, \"end\": 253.512, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 253.512, \"end\": 253.773, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 253.773, \"end\": 253.953, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 253.953, \"end\": 254.513, 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{\"start\": 303.803, \"end\": 322.042, \"text\": \"這很奇怪欸就完全我覺得是很不像話的一件事情喔因為我也很好奇周署長你上任已經邁入第8年了齁那這將近8年來到底這些你為了這些就是說權益受損的這些勞工齁你們實質上幫他們討回了什麼\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 303.803, \"end\": 304.003, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"奇\", \"start\": 304.003, \"end\": 304.204, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"怪\", \"start\": 304.204, \"end\": 305.365, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"欸\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 305.365, \"end\": 305.945, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 305.945, \"end\": 306.126, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 306.126, \"end\": 306.286, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 306.286, \"end\": 306.526, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 306.526, \"end\": 306.686, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 306.686, \"end\": 306.806, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 306.806, \"end\": 306.946, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 306.946, 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\"他變成了正式的勞工所以呢非典就業的比例他就降低了那因為成為正式的員工所以他的薪資的資料他就更完整了所得稅的預期也會增加所以呢這個可以說是這個編記效益更好的結果那但是呢因為有些人故意去提公平性的問題而不支持那我要請教囉在這邊\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 542.936, \"end\": 543.416, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"變\"}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 543.416, \"end\": 543.576, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 543.576, \"end\": 543.736, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 543.736, \"end\": 543.956, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"式\", \"start\": 543.956, \"end\": 544.116, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 544.116, \"end\": 544.537, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 544.537, \"end\": 544.997, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 544.997, \"end\": 545.197, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 545.197, \"end\": 545.337, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 545.337, \"end\": 545.997, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 545.997, \"end\": 546.277, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": 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560.802, \"end\": 561.462, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 561.462, \"end\": 561.622, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 561.622, \"end\": 561.782, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 561.782, \"end\": 561.962, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 561.962, \"end\": 562.163, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 562.163, \"end\": 562.403, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 562.403, \"end\": 562.643, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 562.643, \"end\": 563.183, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"故\", \"start\": 563.183, \"end\": 563.363, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 563.363, \"end\": 563.503, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 563.503, \"end\": 563.703, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 563.703, \"end\": 564.043, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 564.043, \"end\": 564.283, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"平\", \"start\": 564.283, \"end\": 564.503, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 564.503, \"end\": 564.683, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 564.683, \"end\": 565.824, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 565.824, \"end\": 566.004, \"score\": 0.759}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 566.004, \"end\": 566.144, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"支\", \"start\": 566.144, \"end\": 566.424, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 566.424, \"end\": 567.204, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 567.204, \"end\": 567.384, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 567.384, \"end\": 567.504, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 567.504, \"end\": 567.904, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 567.904, \"end\": 568.345, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"囉\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 568.345, \"end\": 568.365, \"score\": 0.005}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}]}, {\"start\": 569.545, \"end\": 599.125, \"text\": \"因為救安基金他不就是要促進這個國民就業嗎?那我們對於這個高齡啊、婦女啊、那育嬰留職、停薪、職災預防、青少年不是都有利用救安基金來穩定就業嗎?那這些族群我剛剛點到這些族群的共通點就是他們都是弱勢而原住民的勞工就是在最底層最基層的這些勞動力也更是弱勢中的弱勢他們就很難被協助到嘛\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 569.545, \"end\": 569.765, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"救\", \"start\": 569.765, \"end\": 569.905, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 569.905, \"end\": 570.065, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 570.065, \"end\": 570.246, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"金\", \"start\": 570.246, \"end\": 570.486, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 570.486, \"end\": 570.646, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 570.646, \"end\": 570.746, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 570.746, \"end\": 570.886, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 570.886, \"end\": 571.006, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 571.006, \"end\": 571.306, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"促\", \"start\": 571.306, 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\"start\": 587.857, \"end\": 588.458, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 588.458, \"end\": 588.658, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 588.658, \"end\": 588.838, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"弱\", \"start\": 588.838, \"end\": 589.759, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"勢\"}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 589.759, \"end\": 589.919, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 589.919, \"end\": 590.199, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"住\", \"start\": 590.199, \"end\": 590.399, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 590.399, \"end\": 590.539, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 590.539, \"end\": 591.099, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 591.099, \"end\": 591.64, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 591.64, \"end\": 591.78, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 591.78, \"end\": 591.92, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 591.92, \"end\": 592.24, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 592.24, \"end\": 592.6, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 592.6, \"end\": 593.181, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"層\"}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 593.181, \"end\": 593.421, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 593.421, \"end\": 593.761, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"層\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 593.761, \"end\": 594.001, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 594.001, \"end\": 594.662, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 594.662, \"end\": 595.082, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 595.082, \"end\": 595.322, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 595.322, \"end\": 595.542, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 595.542, \"end\": 595.743, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"弱\", \"start\": 595.743, \"end\": 596.203, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"勢\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 596.203, \"end\": 596.423, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 596.423, \"end\": 596.523, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"弱\", \"start\": 596.523, \"end\": 597.464, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"勢\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 597.464, \"end\": 597.724, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 597.724, \"end\": 597.904, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 597.904, \"end\": 598.324, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"難\"}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 598.324, \"end\": 598.705, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"協\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 598.705, \"end\": 598.945, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 598.945, \"end\": 599.105, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 599.105, \"end\": 599.125, \"score\": 0.353}]}, {\"start\": 599.605, \"end\": 624.67, \"text\": \"所以希望部長可以好好再重新這個思考這個問題請原住民的勞工就是讓原住民我們勞工這個三高一低的這個三高的問題可以因此得到解決那最後呢期許就是說部長可以成為勞工最有感的這個勞動部長謝謝委員謝謝好那我剛剛講那麼多那個部長簡短回應一下好不好這很重要的問題\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 599.605, \"end\": 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00:00:00,629\n我們麻煩請何部長。請何部長。\n\n2\n00:00:16,997 --> 00:00:35,666\n委員好部長好首先就很高興就是也要誇你一下有這個勇氣跟擔當來擔任勞動部部長這個重責大任這個職位那勞動政策呢他攸關全體國民的這個生活水準與健康安全也是我們國家經濟發展與這個國際競爭力\n\n3\n00:00:39,068 --> 00:00:39,929\n首先,我有八個字要送給部長。\n\n4\n00:00:55,373 --> 00:01:15,252\n偏聽則廢、兼聽則明所以在過去部長有擔任柯總召的辦公室主任以及八年行政院副秘書長的職務我也見證了這些歲月相信部長對於整個溝通協調很難有人可以出其用\n\n5\n00:01:16,673 --> 00:01:21,456\n現在您擔任部長必須要做政策跟決定還有辯護可是問題的專業跟複雜往往都是牽一髮而動全身所以除了文官的意見建議部長未來也可以多聽事業單位跟工會的團體的意見再加上專家學者的意見再去思考\n\n6\n00:01:40,167 --> 00:01:59,238\n問題應該要如何解決那特別是涉及到這個勞動條件還有這個職安位的這個檢查的部分那我要舉一個例子就是在過去我曾經提醒就是說這個勞動條件是否具有這個限期改善的空間我們看一下簡報\n\n7\n00:02:00,519 --> 00:02:21,253\n這個部分在這個勞動檢查法25條裡面法有明定確實有改善的空間那我也特別請教過當過你們政務次長的法學教授他也認為是可以的而且這個勞基法第一條本法未規定者適用其他法律之規定也沒有說不可以\n\n8\n00:02:22,434 --> 00:02:45,973\n以前在地方執行的時候也都是有空間的但是自從你們的現任主密也就是過去的這個執安署的這個劉傳明前署長他搞了一個牢條大軍之後就變成抓到就要罰尤其是在這個一例一休的修法期間曾經有事業單位計算勞工薪資因為差了這個1.33元沒有辦法這個\n\n9\n00:02:50,376 --> 00:03:12,744\n就是除禁那沒有四捨五入差了幾塊錢就要被罰兩萬甚至還有官員沾沾自喜的來跟我們說我的記錄是這個差0.6元我也是跟他罰兩萬塊錢而且更可惡的在罰完之後並不代表勞工就可以領到他們應有的權益因為\n\n10\n00:03:13,544 --> 00:03:28,507\n你們就只管收這個罰款那雇主呢沒有支付給這個勞工加班費的部分喔你們實際上沒有真的很關心啊部長這件事情喔你是不是願意去了解看看看我講的到底是不是真的\n\n11\n00:03:30,404 --> 00:03:57,056\n那我再舉一個例子喔就是職業災害勞工受傷之後呢面對雇主不聞不問那請問職安署呢你們能夠實質幫助到勞工什麼因為我這裡就這幾天我接到的最近接到的一個案例這是來自新竹的一位阿美族的這個原住民喔他是板磨工那他在工作的時候呢他眼睛受傷到現在視力還沒有恢復那\n\n12\n00:03:58,156 --> 00:04:14,914\n這件事情這個職災發生之後僱主是沒有通報的那竟然是這個職災勞工的親友自己去通報職災然後呢就被勞檢了嘛僱主被勞檢\n\n13\n00:04:16,435 --> 00:04:43,055\n職安署也是跳過勞檢法25條的改善期直接一共罰了僱主19萬然後就告訴我們這件事情已經結案了還沒完喔並且是請這個職災勞工自己去申請職災調查報告那如果僱主仍然不補償呢那就請這個職災勞工自己上法院去提告\n\n14\n00:04:43,935 --> 00:05:01,100\n因為僱主已經被你們職安署給罰了所以僱主認為說我本來要付給勞工的員領工資還有醫療補償等等就不再給付了部長你們職安署原來是在跟這些職債勞工搶錢\n\n15\n00:05:03,803 --> 00:05:22,042\n這很奇怪欸就完全我覺得是很不像話的一件事情喔因為我也很好奇周署長你上任已經邁入第8年了齁那這將近8年來到底這些你為了這些就是說權益受損的這些勞工齁你們實質上幫他們討回了什麼\n\n16\n00:05:26,106 --> 00:05:43,300\n為什麼不根據這個調查報告的結果主動給予必要的協助?如果職災調查報告只是為了行政上的結案或者是為了要做裁罰的需要而不是為了職災勞工權益的保障這樣的報告到底有什麼意義?\n\n17\n00:05:44,681 --> 00:06:04,101\n那你們這個調查報告全部都是封在職安署的這個藏金格裡面喔那負責職災己負的這個勞保局你們看不到嘛那還有這個負責這個照顧職災勞工的法人他們也看不到因為你們的系統是停留在恐龍時代\n\n18\n00:06:05,602 --> 00:06:31,844\n那如果要看這個我覺得就是說調查報告起碼要跟這兩個單位要連線啊省得說你公文往返因為要發文才能調查報告嘛那甚至說他們這兩個單位甚至我們辦公室能不能拿到調查報告我們都還要看那個州署長的臉色欸那如果給了是不是叫施捨那不給他就講說是個資啊你們都可以這樣講嘛所以部長\n\n19\n00:06:33,886 --> 00:07:02,885\n你知道嗎?在這個職業安全衛生法裡面的規範都是雇主責任那雇主他必須要提供這個安全衛生的環境還有這個教育訓練那提供安全的設備還有機具跟個人防護的設備那勞工有這個遵守的義務嘛那如果勞工沒有遵守雇主他也就是必須要做這個要這個安全衛生的管理那怎麼可以說發生職貸之後呢就可以不聞不問\n\n20\n00:07:04,367 --> 00:07:18,799\n指安署呢就是檢查完之後結果指安署完成了調查報告也跟著不聞不問了那連這個檢查報告也都不能提供好所以只藏在他們自己指安署裡面部長這些都是會產生民怨的所以\n\n21\n00:07:19,379 --> 00:07:38,227\n我今天特別再點出來您新上任真的這個問題很普遍常常在發生你真的可以好好去了解一下那我今天跟部長談的呢都是過去我在質詢的時候有提過有遇到的問題那因為本期是原住民選出的立法委員那原住民的這個勞工實際就業的人數其實是超過26萬人\n\n22\n00:07:42,068 --> 00:08:02,646\n我們總共大概有50多萬人嘛那我們實際就有26萬人但是實際加入勞保的人數大概只有18萬人左右那而且這個原住民勞工具有這個三高一低的現象就是職災高高職災然後非典型的就業也高然後失業率也高唯一低的就是我們的薪資\n\n23\n00:08:03,607 --> 00:08:21,413\n那這些資料可以從這個原住民就業調查報告還有以及你們的這個職災統計的數據就可以知道那為了解決這些問題我提供我的提案就是是不是可以用這個救安基金的這個補助聘用原住民的雇主那勞保保費一半好這些\n\n24\n00:08:23,089 --> 00:08:39,228\n我現在講的這句話大家都沒有想到的我今天要強調再強調我剛剛講的這些錢不是直接進到雇主的口袋這些錢是最後最後都會全部進入勞工的口袋的幾副\n\n25\n00:08:40,169 --> 00:09:02,476\n我覺得這個觀念大家要弄清楚包括這些審議委員大家要弄清楚這些錢最後都是要進入我們原住民勞工的口袋的脊腹勞保局有精算過那費用大概要3億那而且造成這個效益包括勞保投保人數的增加保費收入也增加那這些人呢\n\n26\n00:09:02,936 --> 00:09:28,365\n他變成了正式的勞工所以呢非典就業的比例他就降低了那因為成為正式的員工所以他的薪資的資料他就更完整了所得稅的預期也會增加所以呢這個可以說是這個編記效益更好的結果那但是呢因為有些人故意去提公平性的問題而不支持那我要請教囉在這邊\n\n27\n00:09:29,545 --> 00:09:59,125\n因為救安基金他不就是要促進這個國民就業嗎?那我們對於這個高齡啊、婦女啊、那育嬰留職、停薪、職災預防、青少年不是都有利用救安基金來穩定就業嗎?那這些族群我剛剛點到這些族群的共通點就是他們都是弱勢而原住民的勞工就是在最底層最基層的這些勞動力也更是弱勢中的弱勢他們就很難被協助到嘛\n\n28\n00:09:59,605 --> 00:10:24,670\n所以希望部長可以好好再重新這個思考這個問題請原住民的勞工就是讓原住民我們勞工這個三高一低的這個三高的問題可以因此得到解決那最後呢期許就是說部長可以成為勞工最有感的這個勞動部長謝謝委員謝謝好那我剛剛講那麼多那個部長簡短回應一下好不好這很重要的問題\n\n29\n00:10:25,230 --> 00:10:26,410\n對那提案的部分我剛剛講的最重要的概念是這個錢最後都是要進\n\n30\n00:10:53,517 --> 00:11:10,971\n對,然後那個勞保的主要是救安基金能不能符合去補助原民勞保費用這確實因為有些人說救保法救保法本身也有它的限制因為我覺得在前面那個救安基金因為部長你當上任我們還沒有實質跟辦公室來實質討論這個問題那我覺得有些資訊可能你前面得到的資訊也\n\n31\n00:11:20,279 --> 00:11:20,299\n陳英偉\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t629\t我們麻煩請何部長。請何部長。\n16997\t35666\t委員好部長好首先就很高興就是也要誇你一下有這個勇氣跟擔當來擔任勞動部部長這個重責大任這個職位那勞動政策呢他攸關全體國民的這個生活水準與健康安全也是我們國家經濟發展與這個國際競爭力\n39068\t39929\t首先,我有八個字要送給部長。\n55373\t75252\t偏聽則廢、兼聽則明所以在過去部長有擔任柯總召的辦公室主任以及八年行政院副秘書長的職務我也見證了這些歲月相信部長對於整個溝通協調很難有人可以出其用\n76673\t81456\t現在您擔任部長必須要做政策跟決定還有辯護可是問題的專業跟複雜往往都是牽一髮而動全身所以除了文官的意見建議部長未來也可以多聽事業單位跟工會的團體的意見再加上專家學者的意見再去思考\n100167\t119238\t問題應該要如何解決那特別是涉及到這個勞動條件還有這個職安位的這個檢查的部分那我要舉一個例子就是在過去我曾經提醒就是說這個勞動條件是否具有這個限期改善的空間我們看一下簡報\n120519\t141253\t這個部分在這個勞動檢查法25條裡面法有明定確實有改善的空間那我也特別請教過當過你們政務次長的法學教授他也認為是可以的而且這個勞基法第一條本法未規定者適用其他法律之規定也沒有說不可以\n142434\t165973\t以前在地方執行的時候也都是有空間的但是自從你們的現任主密也就是過去的這個執安署的這個劉傳明前署長他搞了一個牢條大軍之後就變成抓到就要罰尤其是在這個一例一休的修法期間曾經有事業單位計算勞工薪資因為差了這個1.33元沒有辦法這個\n170376\t192744\t就是除禁那沒有四捨五入差了幾塊錢就要被罰兩萬甚至還有官員沾沾自喜的來跟我們說我的記錄是這個差0.6元我也是跟他罰兩萬塊錢而且更可惡的在罰完之後並不代表勞工就可以領到他們應有的權益因為\n193544\t208507\t你們就只管收這個罰款那雇主呢沒有支付給這個勞工加班費的部分喔你們實際上沒有真的很關心啊部長這件事情喔你是不是願意去了解看看看我講的到底是不是真的\n210404\t237056\t那我再舉一個例子喔就是職業災害勞工受傷之後呢面對雇主不聞不問那請問職安署呢你們能夠實質幫助到勞工什麼因為我這裡就這幾天我接到的最近接到的一個案例這是來自新竹的一位阿美族的這個原住民喔他是板磨工那他在工作的時候呢他眼睛受傷到現在視力還沒有恢復那\n238156\t254914\t這件事情這個職災發生之後僱主是沒有通報的那竟然是這個職災勞工的親友自己去通報職災然後呢就被勞檢了嘛僱主被勞檢\n256435\t283055\t職安署也是跳過勞檢法25條的改善期直接一共罰了僱主19萬然後就告訴我們這件事情已經結案了還沒完喔並且是請這個職災勞工自己去申請職災調查報告那如果僱主仍然不補償呢那就請這個職災勞工自己上法院去提告\n283935\t301100\t因為僱主已經被你們職安署給罰了所以僱主認為說我本來要付給勞工的員領工資還有醫療補償等等就不再給付了部長你們職安署原來是在跟這些職債勞工搶錢\n303803\t322042\t這很奇怪欸就完全我覺得是很不像話的一件事情喔因為我也很好奇周署長你上任已經邁入第8年了齁那這將近8年來到底這些你為了這些就是說權益受損的這些勞工齁你們實質上幫他們討回了什麼\n326106\t343300\t為什麼不根據這個調查報告的結果主動給予必要的協助?如果職災調查報告只是為了行政上的結案或者是為了要做裁罰的需要而不是為了職災勞工權益的保障這樣的報告到底有什麼意義?\n344681\t364101\t那你們這個調查報告全部都是封在職安署的這個藏金格裡面喔那負責職災己負的這個勞保局你們看不到嘛那還有這個負責這個照顧職災勞工的法人他們也看不到因為你們的系統是停留在恐龍時代\n365602\t391844\t那如果要看這個我覺得就是說調查報告起碼要跟這兩個單位要連線啊省得說你公文往返因為要發文才能調查報告嘛那甚至說他們這兩個單位甚至我們辦公室能不能拿到調查報告我們都還要看那個州署長的臉色欸那如果給了是不是叫施捨那不給他就講說是個資啊你們都可以這樣講嘛所以部長\n393886\t422885\t你知道嗎?在這個職業安全衛生法裡面的規範都是雇主責任那雇主他必須要提供這個安全衛生的環境還有這個教育訓練那提供安全的設備還有機具跟個人防護的設備那勞工有這個遵守的義務嘛那如果勞工沒有遵守雇主他也就是必須要做這個要這個安全衛生的管理那怎麼可以說發生職貸之後呢就可以不聞不問\n424367\t438799\t指安署呢就是檢查完之後結果指安署完成了調查報告也跟著不聞不問了那連這個檢查報告也都不能提供好所以只藏在他們自己指安署裡面部長這些都是會產生民怨的所以\n439379\t458227\t我今天特別再點出來您新上任真的這個問題很普遍常常在發生你真的可以好好去了解一下那我今天跟部長談的呢都是過去我在質詢的時候有提過有遇到的問題那因為本期是原住民選出的立法委員那原住民的這個勞工實際就業的人數其實是超過26萬人\n462068\t482646\t我們總共大概有50多萬人嘛那我們實際就有26萬人但是實際加入勞保的人數大概只有18萬人左右那而且這個原住民勞工具有這個三高一低的現象就是職災高高職災然後非典型的就業也高然後失業率也高唯一低的就是我們的薪資\n483607\t501413\t那這些資料可以從這個原住民就業調查報告還有以及你們的這個職災統計的數據就可以知道那為了解決這些問題我提供我的提案就是是不是可以用這個救安基金的這個補助聘用原住民的雇主那勞保保費一半好這些\n503089\t519228\t我現在講的這句話大家都沒有想到的我今天要強調再強調我剛剛講的這些錢不是直接進到雇主的口袋這些錢是最後最後都會全部進入勞工的口袋的幾副\n520169\t542476\t我覺得這個觀念大家要弄清楚包括這些審議委員大家要弄清楚這些錢最後都是要進入我們原住民勞工的口袋的脊腹勞保局有精算過那費用大概要3億那而且造成這個效益包括勞保投保人數的增加保費收入也增加那這些人呢\n542936\t568365\t他變成了正式的勞工所以呢非典就業的比例他就降低了那因為成為正式的員工所以他的薪資的資料他就更完整了所得稅的預期也會增加所以呢這個可以說是這個編記效益更好的結果那但是呢因為有些人故意去提公平性的問題而不支持那我要請教囉在這邊\n569545\t599125\t因為救安基金他不就是要促進這個國民就業嗎?那我們對於這個高齡啊、婦女啊、那育嬰留職、停薪、職災預防、青少年不是都有利用救安基金來穩定就業嗎?那這些族群我剛剛點到這些族群的共通點就是他們都是弱勢而原住民的勞工就是在最底層最基層的這些勞動力也更是弱勢中的弱勢他們就很難被協助到嘛\n599605\t624670\t所以希望部長可以好好再重新這個思考這個問題請原住民的勞工就是讓原住民我們勞工這個三高一低的這個三高的問題可以因此得到解決那最後呢期許就是說部長可以成為勞工最有感的這個勞動部長謝謝委員謝謝好那我剛剛講那麼多那個部長簡短回應一下好不好這很重要的問題\n625230\t626410\t對那提案的部分我剛剛講的最重要的概念是這個錢最後都是要進\n653517\t670971\t對,然後那個勞保的主要是救安基金能不能符合去補助原民勞保費用這確實因為有些人說救保法救保法本身也有它的限制因為我覺得在前面那個救安基金因為部長你當上任我們還沒有實質跟辦公室來實質討論這個問題那我覺得有些資訊可能你前面得到的資訊也\n680279\t680299\t陳英偉\n","txt":"我們麻煩請何部長。請何部長。\n委員好部長好首先就很高興就是也要誇你一下有這個勇氣跟擔當來擔任勞動部部長這個重責大任這個職位那勞動政策呢他攸關全體國民的這個生活水準與健康安全也是我們國家經濟發展與這個國際競爭力\n首先,我有八個字要送給部長。\n偏聽則廢、兼聽則明所以在過去部長有擔任柯總召的辦公室主任以及八年行政院副秘書長的職務我也見證了這些歲月相信部長對於整個溝通協調很難有人可以出其用\n現在您擔任部長必須要做政策跟決定還有辯護可是問題的專業跟複雜往往都是牽一髮而動全身所以除了文官的意見建議部長未來也可以多聽事業單位跟工會的團體的意見再加上專家學者的意見再去思考\n問題應該要如何解決那特別是涉及到這個勞動條件還有這個職安位的這個檢查的部分那我要舉一個例子就是在過去我曾經提醒就是說這個勞動條件是否具有這個限期改善的空間我們看一下簡報\n這個部分在這個勞動檢查法25條裡面法有明定確實有改善的空間那我也特別請教過當過你們政務次長的法學教授他也認為是可以的而且這個勞基法第一條本法未規定者適用其他法律之規定也沒有說不可以\n以前在地方執行的時候也都是有空間的但是自從你們的現任主密也就是過去的這個執安署的這個劉傳明前署長他搞了一個牢條大軍之後就變成抓到就要罰尤其是在這個一例一休的修法期間曾經有事業單位計算勞工薪資因為差了這個1.33元沒有辦法這個\n就是除禁那沒有四捨五入差了幾塊錢就要被罰兩萬甚至還有官員沾沾自喜的來跟我們說我的記錄是這個差0.6元我也是跟他罰兩萬塊錢而且更可惡的在罰完之後並不代表勞工就可以領到他們應有的權益因為\n你們就只管收這個罰款那雇主呢沒有支付給這個勞工加班費的部分喔你們實際上沒有真的很關心啊部長這件事情喔你是不是願意去了解看看看我講的到底是不是真的\n那我再舉一個例子喔就是職業災害勞工受傷之後呢面對雇主不聞不問那請問職安署呢你們能夠實質幫助到勞工什麼因為我這裡就這幾天我接到的最近接到的一個案例這是來自新竹的一位阿美族的這個原住民喔他是板磨工那他在工作的時候呢他眼睛受傷到現在視力還沒有恢復那\n這件事情這個職災發生之後僱主是沒有通報的那竟然是這個職災勞工的親友自己去通報職災然後呢就被勞檢了嘛僱主被勞檢\n職安署也是跳過勞檢法25條的改善期直接一共罰了僱主19萬然後就告訴我們這件事情已經結案了還沒完喔並且是請這個職災勞工自己去申請職災調查報告那如果僱主仍然不補償呢那就請這個職災勞工自己上法院去提告\n因為僱主已經被你們職安署給罰了所以僱主認為說我本來要付給勞工的員領工資還有醫療補償等等就不再給付了部長你們職安署原來是在跟這些職債勞工搶錢\n這很奇怪欸就完全我覺得是很不像話的一件事情喔因為我也很好奇周署長你上任已經邁入第8年了齁那這將近8年來到底這些你為了這些就是說權益受損的這些勞工齁你們實質上幫他們討回了什麼\n為什麼不根據這個調查報告的結果主動給予必要的協助?如果職災調查報告只是為了行政上的結案或者是為了要做裁罰的需要而不是為了職災勞工權益的保障這樣的報告到底有什麼意義?\n那你們這個調查報告全部都是封在職安署的這個藏金格裡面喔那負責職災己負的這個勞保局你們看不到嘛那還有這個負責這個照顧職災勞工的法人他們也看不到因為你們的系統是停留在恐龍時代\n那如果要看這個我覺得就是說調查報告起碼要跟這兩個單位要連線啊省得說你公文往返因為要發文才能調查報告嘛那甚至說他們這兩個單位甚至我們辦公室能不能拿到調查報告我們都還要看那個州署長的臉色欸那如果給了是不是叫施捨那不給他就講說是個資啊你們都可以這樣講嘛所以部長\n你知道嗎?在這個職業安全衛生法裡面的規範都是雇主責任那雇主他必須要提供這個安全衛生的環境還有這個教育訓練那提供安全的設備還有機具跟個人防護的設備那勞工有這個遵守的義務嘛那如果勞工沒有遵守雇主他也就是必須要做這個要這個安全衛生的管理那怎麼可以說發生職貸之後呢就可以不聞不問\n指安署呢就是檢查完之後結果指安署完成了調查報告也跟著不聞不問了那連這個檢查報告也都不能提供好所以只藏在他們自己指安署裡面部長這些都是會產生民怨的所以\n我今天特別再點出來您新上任真的這個問題很普遍常常在發生你真的可以好好去了解一下那我今天跟部長談的呢都是過去我在質詢的時候有提過有遇到的問題那因為本期是原住民選出的立法委員那原住民的這個勞工實際就業的人數其實是超過26萬人\n我們總共大概有50多萬人嘛那我們實際就有26萬人但是實際加入勞保的人數大概只有18萬人左右那而且這個原住民勞工具有這個三高一低的現象就是職災高高職災然後非典型的就業也高然後失業率也高唯一低的就是我們的薪資\n那這些資料可以從這個原住民就業調查報告還有以及你們的這個職災統計的數據就可以知道那為了解決這些問題我提供我的提案就是是不是可以用這個救安基金的這個補助聘用原住民的雇主那勞保保費一半好這些\n我現在講的這句話大家都沒有想到的我今天要強調再強調我剛剛講的這些錢不是直接進到雇主的口袋這些錢是最後最後都會全部進入勞工的口袋的幾副\n我覺得這個觀念大家要弄清楚包括這些審議委員大家要弄清楚這些錢最後都是要進入我們原住民勞工的口袋的脊腹勞保局有精算過那費用大概要3億那而且造成這個效益包括勞保投保人數的增加保費收入也增加那這些人呢\n他變成了正式的勞工所以呢非典就業的比例他就降低了那因為成為正式的員工所以他的薪資的資料他就更完整了所得稅的預期也會增加所以呢這個可以說是這個編記效益更好的結果那但是呢因為有些人故意去提公平性的問題而不支持那我要請教囉在這邊\n因為救安基金他不就是要促進這個國民就業嗎?那我們對於這個高齡啊、婦女啊、那育嬰留職、停薪、職災預防、青少年不是都有利用救安基金來穩定就業嗎?那這些族群我剛剛點到這些族群的共通點就是他們都是弱勢而原住民的勞工就是在最底層最基層的這些勞動力也更是弱勢中的弱勢他們就很難被協助到嘛\n所以希望部長可以好好再重新這個思考這個問題請原住民的勞工就是讓原住民我們勞工這個三高一低的這個三高的問題可以因此得到解決那最後呢期許就是說部長可以成為勞工最有感的這個勞動部長謝謝委員謝謝好那我剛剛講那麼多那個部長簡短回應一下好不好這很重要的問題\n對那提案的部分我剛剛講的最重要的概念是這個錢最後都是要進\n對,然後那個勞保的主要是救安基金能不能符合去補助原民勞保費用這確實因為有些人說救保法救保法本身也有它的限制因為我覺得在前面那個救安基金因為部長你當上任我們還沒有實質跟辦公室來實質討論這個問題那我覺得有些資訊可能你前面得到的資訊也\n陳英偉\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:00.629\n我們麻煩請何部長。請何部長。\n\n00:16.997 --> 00:35.666\n委員好部長好首先就很高興就是也要誇你一下有這個勇氣跟擔當來擔任勞動部部長這個重責大任這個職位那勞動政策呢他攸關全體國民的這個生活水準與健康安全也是我們國家經濟發展與這個國際競爭力\n\n00:39.068 --> 00:39.929\n首先,我有八個字要送給部長。\n\n00:55.373 --> 01:15.252\n偏聽則廢、兼聽則明所以在過去部長有擔任柯總召的辦公室主任以及八年行政院副秘書長的職務我也見證了這些歲月相信部長對於整個溝通協調很難有人可以出其用\n\n01:16.673 --> 01:21.456\n現在您擔任部長必須要做政策跟決定還有辯護可是問題的專業跟複雜往往都是牽一髮而動全身所以除了文官的意見建議部長未來也可以多聽事業單位跟工會的團體的意見再加上專家學者的意見再去思考\n\n01:40.167 --> 01:59.238\n問題應該要如何解決那特別是涉及到這個勞動條件還有這個職安位的這個檢查的部分那我要舉一個例子就是在過去我曾經提醒就是說這個勞動條件是否具有這個限期改善的空間我們看一下簡報\n\n02:00.519 --> 02:21.253\n這個部分在這個勞動檢查法25條裡面法有明定確實有改善的空間那我也特別請教過當過你們政務次長的法學教授他也認為是可以的而且這個勞基法第一條本法未規定者適用其他法律之規定也沒有說不可以\n\n02:22.434 --> 02:45.973\n以前在地方執行的時候也都是有空間的但是自從你們的現任主密也就是過去的這個執安署的這個劉傳明前署長他搞了一個牢條大軍之後就變成抓到就要罰尤其是在這個一例一休的修法期間曾經有事業單位計算勞工薪資因為差了這個1.33元沒有辦法這個\n\n02:50.376 --> 03:12.744\n就是除禁那沒有四捨五入差了幾塊錢就要被罰兩萬甚至還有官員沾沾自喜的來跟我們說我的記錄是這個差0.6元我也是跟他罰兩萬塊錢而且更可惡的在罰完之後並不代表勞工就可以領到他們應有的權益因為\n\n03:13.544 --> 03:28.507\n你們就只管收這個罰款那雇主呢沒有支付給這個勞工加班費的部分喔你們實際上沒有真的很關心啊部長這件事情喔你是不是願意去了解看看看我講的到底是不是真的\n\n03:30.404 --> 03:57.056\n那我再舉一個例子喔就是職業災害勞工受傷之後呢面對雇主不聞不問那請問職安署呢你們能夠實質幫助到勞工什麼因為我這裡就這幾天我接到的最近接到的一個案例這是來自新竹的一位阿美族的這個原住民喔他是板磨工那他在工作的時候呢他眼睛受傷到現在視力還沒有恢復那\n\n03:58.156 --> 04:14.914\n這件事情這個職災發生之後僱主是沒有通報的那竟然是這個職災勞工的親友自己去通報職災然後呢就被勞檢了嘛僱主被勞檢\n\n04:16.435 --> 04:43.055\n職安署也是跳過勞檢法25條的改善期直接一共罰了僱主19萬然後就告訴我們這件事情已經結案了還沒完喔並且是請這個職災勞工自己去申請職災調查報告那如果僱主仍然不補償呢那就請這個職災勞工自己上法院去提告\n\n04:43.935 --> 05:01.100\n因為僱主已經被你們職安署給罰了所以僱主認為說我本來要付給勞工的員領工資還有醫療補償等等就不再給付了部長你們職安署原來是在跟這些職債勞工搶錢\n\n05:03.803 --> 05:22.042\n這很奇怪欸就完全我覺得是很不像話的一件事情喔因為我也很好奇周署長你上任已經邁入第8年了齁那這將近8年來到底這些你為了這些就是說權益受損的這些勞工齁你們實質上幫他們討回了什麼\n\n05:26.106 --> 05:43.300\n為什麼不根據這個調查報告的結果主動給予必要的協助?如果職災調查報告只是為了行政上的結案或者是為了要做裁罰的需要而不是為了職災勞工權益的保障這樣的報告到底有什麼意義?\n\n05:44.681 --> 06:04.101\n那你們這個調查報告全部都是封在職安署的這個藏金格裡面喔那負責職災己負的這個勞保局你們看不到嘛那還有這個負責這個照顧職災勞工的法人他們也看不到因為你們的系統是停留在恐龍時代\n\n06:05.602 --> 06:31.844\n那如果要看這個我覺得就是說調查報告起碼要跟這兩個單位要連線啊省得說你公文往返因為要發文才能調查報告嘛那甚至說他們這兩個單位甚至我們辦公室能不能拿到調查報告我們都還要看那個州署長的臉色欸那如果給了是不是叫施捨那不給他就講說是個資啊你們都可以這樣講嘛所以部長\n\n06:33.886 --> 07:02.885\n你知道嗎?在這個職業安全衛生法裡面的規範都是雇主責任那雇主他必須要提供這個安全衛生的環境還有這個教育訓練那提供安全的設備還有機具跟個人防護的設備那勞工有這個遵守的義務嘛那如果勞工沒有遵守雇主他也就是必須要做這個要這個安全衛生的管理那怎麼可以說發生職貸之後呢就可以不聞不問\n\n07:04.367 --> 07:18.799\n指安署呢就是檢查完之後結果指安署完成了調查報告也跟著不聞不問了那連這個檢查報告也都不能提供好所以只藏在他們自己指安署裡面部長這些都是會產生民怨的所以\n\n07:19.379 --> 07:38.227\n我今天特別再點出來您新上任真的這個問題很普遍常常在發生你真的可以好好去了解一下那我今天跟部長談的呢都是過去我在質詢的時候有提過有遇到的問題那因為本期是原住民選出的立法委員那原住民的這個勞工實際就業的人數其實是超過26萬人\n\n07:42.068 --> 08:02.646\n我們總共大概有50多萬人嘛那我們實際就有26萬人但是實際加入勞保的人數大概只有18萬人左右那而且這個原住民勞工具有這個三高一低的現象就是職災高高職災然後非典型的就業也高然後失業率也高唯一低的就是我們的薪資\n\n08:03.607 --> 08:21.413\n那這些資料可以從這個原住民就業調查報告還有以及你們的這個職災統計的數據就可以知道那為了解決這些問題我提供我的提案就是是不是可以用這個救安基金的這個補助聘用原住民的雇主那勞保保費一半好這些\n\n08:23.089 --> 08:39.228\n我現在講的這句話大家都沒有想到的我今天要強調再強調我剛剛講的這些錢不是直接進到雇主的口袋這些錢是最後最後都會全部進入勞工的口袋的幾副\n\n08:40.169 --> 09:02.476\n我覺得這個觀念大家要弄清楚包括這些審議委員大家要弄清楚這些錢最後都是要進入我們原住民勞工的口袋的脊腹勞保局有精算過那費用大概要3億那而且造成這個效益包括勞保投保人數的增加保費收入也增加那這些人呢\n\n09:02.936 --> 09:28.365\n他變成了正式的勞工所以呢非典就業的比例他就降低了那因為成為正式的員工所以他的薪資的資料他就更完整了所得稅的預期也會增加所以呢這個可以說是這個編記效益更好的結果那但是呢因為有些人故意去提公平性的問題而不支持那我要請教囉在這邊\n\n09:29.545 --> 09:59.125\n因為救安基金他不就是要促進這個國民就業嗎?那我們對於這個高齡啊、婦女啊、那育嬰留職、停薪、職災預防、青少年不是都有利用救安基金來穩定就業嗎?那這些族群我剛剛點到這些族群的共通點就是他們都是弱勢而原住民的勞工就是在最底層最基層的這些勞動力也更是弱勢中的弱勢他們就很難被協助到嘛\n\n09:59.605 --> 10:24.670\n所以希望部長可以好好再重新這個思考這個問題請原住民的勞工就是讓原住民我們勞工這個三高一低的這個三高的問題可以因此得到解決那最後呢期許就是說部長可以成為勞工最有感的這個勞動部長謝謝委員謝謝好那我剛剛講那麼多那個部長簡短回應一下好不好這很重要的問題\n\n10:25.230 --> 10:26.410\n對那提案的部分我剛剛講的最重要的概念是這個錢最後都是要進\n\n10:53.517 --> 11:10.971\n對,然後那個勞保的主要是救安基金能不能符合去補助原民勞保費用這確實因為有些人說救保法救保法本身也有它的限制因為我覺得在前面那個救安基金因為部長你當上任我們還沒有實質跟辦公室來實質討論這個問題那我覺得有些資訊可能你前面得到的資訊也\n\n11:20.279 --> 11:20.299\n陳英偉\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":0.629,"text":"我們麻煩請何部長。請何部長。"},{"start":16.997,"end":35.666,"text":"委員好部長好首先就很高興就是也要誇你一下有這個勇氣跟擔當來擔任勞動部部長這個重責大任這個職位那勞動政策呢他攸關全體國民的這個生活水準與健康安全也是我們國家經濟發展與這個國際競爭力"},{"start":39.068,"end":39.929,"text":"首先,我有八個字要送給部長。"},{"start":55.373,"end":75.252,"text":"偏聽則廢、兼聽則明所以在過去部長有擔任柯總召的辦公室主任以及八年行政院副秘書長的職務我也見證了這些歲月相信部長對於整個溝通協調很難有人可以出其用"},{"start":76.673,"end":81.456,"text":"現在您擔任部長必須要做政策跟決定還有辯護可是問題的專業跟複雜往往都是牽一髮而動全身所以除了文官的意見建議部長未來也可以多聽事業單位跟工會的團體的意見再加上專家學者的意見再去思考"},{"start":100.167,"end":119.238,"text":"問題應該要如何解決那特別是涉及到這個勞動條件還有這個職安位的這個檢查的部分那我要舉一個例子就是在過去我曾經提醒就是說這個勞動條件是否具有這個限期改善的空間我們看一下簡報"},{"start":120.519,"end":141.253,"text":"這個部分在這個勞動檢查法25條裡面法有明定確實有改善的空間那我也特別請教過當過你們政務次長的法學教授他也認為是可以的而且這個勞基法第一條本法未規定者適用其他法律之規定也沒有說不可以"},{"start":142.434,"end":165.973,"text":"以前在地方執行的時候也都是有空間的但是自從你們的現任主密也就是過去的這個執安署的這個劉傳明前署長他搞了一個牢條大軍之後就變成抓到就要罰尤其是在這個一例一休的修法期間曾經有事業單位計算勞工薪資因為差了這個1.33元沒有辦法這個"},{"start":170.376,"end":192.744,"text":"就是除禁那沒有四捨五入差了幾塊錢就要被罰兩萬甚至還有官員沾沾自喜的來跟我們說我的記錄是這個差0.6元我也是跟他罰兩萬塊錢而且更可惡的在罰完之後並不代表勞工就可以領到他們應有的權益因為"},{"start":193.544,"end":208.507,"text":"你們就只管收這個罰款那雇主呢沒有支付給這個勞工加班費的部分喔你們實際上沒有真的很關心啊部長這件事情喔你是不是願意去了解看看看我講的到底是不是真的"},{"start":210.404,"end":237.056,"text":"那我再舉一個例子喔就是職業災害勞工受傷之後呢面對雇主不聞不問那請問職安署呢你們能夠實質幫助到勞工什麼因為我這裡就這幾天我接到的最近接到的一個案例這是來自新竹的一位阿美族的這個原住民喔他是板磨工那他在工作的時候呢他眼睛受傷到現在視力還沒有恢復那"},{"start":238.156,"end":254.914,"text":"這件事情這個職災發生之後僱主是沒有通報的那竟然是這個職災勞工的親友自己去通報職災然後呢就被勞檢了嘛僱主被勞檢"},{"start":256.435,"end":283.055,"text":"職安署也是跳過勞檢法25條的改善期直接一共罰了僱主19萬然後就告訴我們這件事情已經結案了還沒完喔並且是請這個職災勞工自己去申請職災調查報告那如果僱主仍然不補償呢那就請這個職災勞工自己上法院去提告"},{"start":283.935,"end":301.1,"text":"因為僱主已經被你們職安署給罰了所以僱主認為說我本來要付給勞工的員領工資還有醫療補償等等就不再給付了部長你們職安署原來是在跟這些職債勞工搶錢"},{"start":303.803,"end":322.042,"text":"這很奇怪欸就完全我覺得是很不像話的一件事情喔因為我也很好奇周署長你上任已經邁入第8年了齁那這將近8年來到底這些你為了這些就是說權益受損的這些勞工齁你們實質上幫他們討回了什麼"},{"start":326.106,"end":343.3,"text":"為什麼不根據這個調查報告的結果主動給予必要的協助?如果職災調查報告只是為了行政上的結案或者是為了要做裁罰的需要而不是為了職災勞工權益的保障這樣的報告到底有什麼意義?"},{"start":344.681,"end":364.101,"text":"那你們這個調查報告全部都是封在職安署的這個藏金格裡面喔那負責職災己負的這個勞保局你們看不到嘛那還有這個負責這個照顧職災勞工的法人他們也看不到因為你們的系統是停留在恐龍時代"},{"start":365.602,"end":391.844,"text":"那如果要看這個我覺得就是說調查報告起碼要跟這兩個單位要連線啊省得說你公文往返因為要發文才能調查報告嘛那甚至說他們這兩個單位甚至我們辦公室能不能拿到調查報告我們都還要看那個州署長的臉色欸那如果給了是不是叫施捨那不給他就講說是個資啊你們都可以這樣講嘛所以部長"},{"start":393.886,"end":422.885,"text":"你知道嗎?在這個職業安全衛生法裡面的規範都是雇主責任那雇主他必須要提供這個安全衛生的環境還有這個教育訓練那提供安全的設備還有機具跟個人防護的設備那勞工有這個遵守的義務嘛那如果勞工沒有遵守雇主他也就是必須要做這個要這個安全衛生的管理那怎麼可以說發生職貸之後呢就可以不聞不問"},{"start":424.367,"end":438.799,"text":"指安署呢就是檢查完之後結果指安署完成了調查報告也跟著不聞不問了那連這個檢查報告也都不能提供好所以只藏在他們自己指安署裡面部長這些都是會產生民怨的所以"},{"start":439.379,"end":458.227,"text":"我今天特別再點出來您新上任真的這個問題很普遍常常在發生你真的可以好好去了解一下那我今天跟部長談的呢都是過去我在質詢的時候有提過有遇到的問題那因為本期是原住民選出的立法委員那原住民的這個勞工實際就業的人數其實是超過26萬人"},{"start":462.068,"end":482.646,"text":"我們總共大概有50多萬人嘛那我們實際就有26萬人但是實際加入勞保的人數大概只有18萬人左右那而且這個原住民勞工具有這個三高一低的現象就是職災高高職災然後非典型的就業也高然後失業率也高唯一低的就是我們的薪資"},{"start":483.607,"end":501.413,"text":"那這些資料可以從這個原住民就業調查報告還有以及你們的這個職災統計的數據就可以知道那為了解決這些問題我提供我的提案就是是不是可以用這個救安基金的這個補助聘用原住民的雇主那勞保保費一半好這些"},{"start":503.089,"end":519.228,"text":"我現在講的這句話大家都沒有想到的我今天要強調再強調我剛剛講的這些錢不是直接進到雇主的口袋這些錢是最後最後都會全部進入勞工的口袋的幾副"},{"start":520.169,"end":542.476,"text":"我覺得這個觀念大家要弄清楚包括這些審議委員大家要弄清楚這些錢最後都是要進入我們原住民勞工的口袋的脊腹勞保局有精算過那費用大概要3億那而且造成這個效益包括勞保投保人數的增加保費收入也增加那這些人呢"},{"start":542.936,"end":568.365,"text":"他變成了正式的勞工所以呢非典就業的比例他就降低了那因為成為正式的員工所以他的薪資的資料他就更完整了所得稅的預期也會增加所以呢這個可以說是這個編記效益更好的結果那但是呢因為有些人故意去提公平性的問題而不支持那我要請教囉在這邊"},{"start":569.545,"end":599.125,"text":"因為救安基金他不就是要促進這個國民就業嗎?那我們對於這個高齡啊、婦女啊、那育嬰留職、停薪、職災預防、青少年不是都有利用救安基金來穩定就業嗎?那這些族群我剛剛點到這些族群的共通點就是他們都是弱勢而原住民的勞工就是在最底層最基層的這些勞動力也更是弱勢中的弱勢他們就很難被協助到嘛"},{"start":599.605,"end":624.67,"text":"所以希望部長可以好好再重新這個思考這個問題請原住民的勞工就是讓原住民我們勞工這個三高一低的這個三高的問題可以因此得到解決那最後呢期許就是說部長可以成為勞工最有感的這個勞動部長謝謝委員謝謝好那我剛剛講那麼多那個部長簡短回應一下好不好這很重要的問題"},{"start":625.23,"end":626.41,"text":"對那提案的部分我剛剛講的最重要的概念是這個錢最後都是要進"},{"start":653.517,"end":670.971,"text":"對,然後那個勞保的主要是救安基金能不能符合去補助原民勞保費用這確實因為有些人說救保法救保法本身也有它的限制因為我覺得在前面那個救安基金因為部長你當上任我們還沒有實質跟辦公室來實質討論這個問題那我覺得有些資訊可能你前面得到的資訊也"},{"start":680.279,"end":680.299,"text":"陳英偉"}]}}}}