{"id":152990,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152990","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3f9cdc23c9415f578e6d49214c7a82f13945ede7791f90b9e13c5f764d90b48005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:43:12 - 09:57:39","影片長度":"00:14:27","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":867,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T09:57:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T09:43:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":181,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時43分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請鄭部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長早。您剛剛受訪的時候說非常奇妙來備詢，也說希望臺灣教育越來越好，本席跟你一樣的想法，我們都希望臺灣的教育越來越好。所以我首先要先跟您請教的是，因為教育很重要的就是誠實面對，不管是過去、現在或未來都一樣。您在擔任中山大學校長的時候，當時政大教育系的教授周祝瑛指出，曾經擔任中山大學校長的部長曾向他坦承卡管案是不對的，部長願意證實一下嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：基本上，這個是來自於跟周教授，因為我們算是學長學弟的關係，我們總是希望大學裡面能夠學術自主，怎麼樣從學校裡的機制來做比較適當的校長遴選，是這樣的。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以卡管案是不對的？你有說過這句話？"],["鄭部長英耀：對不起，因為確實是有一點時間，有一點……"],["洪委員孟楷：那您現在認為呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：我還是認為學校的校長遴選，以現在的一個辦法機制，還是回到學校裡邊來做……"],["洪委員孟楷：政治黑手或是任何政治力都不應該介入？"],["鄭部長英耀：基本上，我認為應該回到讓大學從專業出發，就學術論學術，以既有的一個規範來……"],["洪委員孟楷：就學術論學術？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，為什麼我會特別跟您這麼請教？因為過去8年，蔡政府的教育成績單，卡管案跟論文抄襲案其實嚴重傷害了大學自主跟學術倫理，也因此我們才會希望在新任教育部長第一天來到教育文化委員會的時候，應該要開宗明義明確地說明清楚，到底在你任內還會不會發生有任何政治力干預大學自主或是學術倫理的事情？你有信心不會再發生嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想在我任內，我會朝那一個方向努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：就是不會讓它再發生，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。部長，有很多人及學界稱讚你是作風親民，但是都呼籲應該要檢討一個政策，什麼樣的政策？剛剛也有委員提到，其實過去好幾年我們也都一直在質詢，就是所謂課綱學習歷程的部分。學習歷程從過去這樣子上來，已經淪為很多媒體或很多坊間都在講的代工、代寫、軍備競賽、商品抄襲化，甚至你只要在Google關鍵字搜尋學習歷程所跳出來的，行情價是多少，部長有沒有瞭解？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，對不起，我不清楚。"],["洪委員孟楷：不清楚？有沒有聽過？有沒有試著google過？如果連我們的教育部長都不瞭解現在高中生面臨到什麼樣的問題，要升大學可能會面臨到學習歷程檔案有開價十六萬八的、有開價二十萬的，很多大學一直在疾呼不要花冤枉錢，可是還是有這樣的市場、還是有這樣的行情，這代表什麼？代表有人買嘛！為什麼會有人買？是不是根本就認為學習歷程檔案到最後就變成是軍備競賽，有資源的學生可以做得漂漂亮亮，沒資源的、偏鄉學生就只能自求多福？部長，要不要正視這樣的問題？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我想會有這樣的情形當然不是我們所樂見，我們也並不鼓勵。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然，我相信一開始開宗明義講這個政策的時候，絕對不是說要讓民間做事業、做生意嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：但問題是到現在推動了這幾年下來，這種情形越來越多，我們要不要查一下──現在輸入學習歷程檔案，google一下，有沒有這種行情價？"],["鄭部長英耀：確實的行情我並不清楚，因為我來自大學，我們當然也在大學裡面聽到一些系所教授，他們事實上……"],["洪委員孟楷：有講過？"],["鄭部長英耀：也討論過這一個，我們怎麼樣去呼籲大學裡的教授在推甄、在申請入學的時候，對於學生的學習歷程檔案，能夠真正的去閱讀，然後瞭解，以便跟學生在面談的時候能夠形成一個更良好的、認識學生發展的一個可能性，我想這是我們要來努力的。另外……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你講得都非常好，這也都是教育人應該要有的理想，但理想很豐滿，現實很骨感啊，現在的狀況就是這樣子，那您上任之後要怎麼樣解決這個問題？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們一定會積極地來宣導，包括……"],["洪委員孟楷：宣導？不用檢討制度？"],["鄭部長英耀：我……"],["洪委員孟楷：就是告訴大家不要去買，多講幾次，就會有學生認為不要去買，是不是？多講幾次叫你不要賣，就會有人說「對，因為部長講了不要賣，所以我就不賣」，有可能嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想民主社會裡面確實會有一些我們看不到的、衍生出來的可能弊端，但是我們基本上還是會從……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，比較誠摯的建議啦，今年已經來不及了，但是既然您上任，是不是能夠在這三個月、半年的時間，針對學習歷程檔案去做一個澈底的檢討？您有大學端的經驗，把過去大學端、高中端的經驗，大家澈底的來做一個討論。有關學習歷程檔案，本席沒有說這樣的政策一定要廢除或怎麼樣，但是當利大於弊或弊大於利的時候，代表有相當的弊端，而我們要做的就是怎麼樣讓它精進，檢討得更好，這能夠做到嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的關心，這個方向確實也是我們在努力的。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，三個月內，是不是能夠針對學習歷程檔案來做一個檢討？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們來努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝部長。部長，您上任的時候曾對媒體講說首要三件事，其中第一件事情是希望達到賴清德總統就職演說時候的一個目標，希望能夠讓陸生來臺，對不對？恢復陸生來臺。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：確實，這一點我必須要究責一下，教育部整部的業務報告那麼重要，部長宣示三件事、三把劍，照理講這三把劍，如果我是你們的同仁，一定是寫在最前面，寫在第1頁。結果我們部長的報告通篇36頁，下面報告人寫「教育部部長報告」，為什麼您最重要的事情沒有放在裡面？如果推說是時間來不及，我想您不是今天才上任，上個禮拜一的此時此刻，您剛上任，有整整一個禮拜的時間準備，禮拜五柯志恩召委也才告知今天會有專案報告，你有太多時間可以準備，但卻沒有放在裡面，原因是什麼？是不確定、沒有信心達成？還是有難言之隱？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想這是我的疏忽，我們內部會來深切檢討。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長算是有肩膀的人，不是推給下屬，而是說您自己疏忽，所以您是忘記了？"],["鄭部長英耀：應該說我確實是整個……這個角色的改變，確實這一個觀照不夠。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長自己承認說是來不及，本席不希望到明年5月公告簡章，9月能夠入學的時候又說來不及，所以沒有辦法推行這樣的制度。所以我想請教，現在我們溝通的管道是暢通的嗎？能夠確實達到明年5月公告簡章、7月放榜、9月入學嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們在努力，也跟陸委會這邊……"],["洪委員孟楷：有多少信心能夠達成？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們當然希望能夠……這是一個好事，從教育的觀點，能夠讓兩岸的年輕人……"],["洪委員孟楷：當然是好事，能夠用教育交流，尤其您有提到平等尊嚴，本席也認同，一定要平等尊嚴，兩岸交流本來就是這樣，但我不希望看到：第一，2023年有前總統馬英九前往中國大陸也是平等尊嚴的情況，帶學生去交流，之後也有大陸學生組團來臺交流，也是平等尊嚴，這兩個交流也沒有涉及到政治，但當時民進黨就有委員講說這叫「統戰團」，我們心裡在想，37位大學生來臺灣旅遊觀光一個禮拜，就可以把我們統戰，那臺灣的民主也太脆弱了吧！所以部長，你有信心明年5月能夠公告簡章、7月放榜、9月入學？會不會變成是統戰？"],["鄭部長英耀：就我個人來講，我從來不從這個角度來思考。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛！我也不認為學生平等尊嚴的交流會是統戰，所以我們是不是應該在學術上面，政治歸政治，但學術歸學術？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們會努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，努力就要達成，我希望您到明年的7月、9月的時候還在這個位置上，本席也會在這個位置上持續監督您，現在開的支票，明年要兌現，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是謝謝啦！你要說「可以」啦！"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，最後我再請教，賴清德總統在選舉的時候有提過，他希望能夠讓高中職全面免學費。您知道，到目前為止教育部真的有推動，可是就有一類人是被排除在外的，讓大家覺得他好像不是我們中華民國的國人、不是我們臺灣的學生，哪一類人？"],["鄭部長英耀：那就是獨招的獨中。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，有多少位？"],["鄭部長英耀：一屆有2,000位學生。"],["洪委員孟楷：總共有6,030位，這個是教育部長潘文忠給本席的公文，總共有6,030人。"],["鄭部長英耀：三年剛好大概就是六千多。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，大家也會問，覺得奇怪，明明賴清德總統不管在競選或是選舉完的承諾，都是說高中職免學費，一視同仁嘛！臺灣的學生沒有分你我，沒有分彼此，沒有分階級啊！但為什麼會……當初他的政策在宣布的時候也沒有但書，也沒有說獨立招生不算。如果說他當時有講的話，大家不會去怪罪，但現在變成是所有的這些家長或是學生都覺得奇怪，難道我們被賴清德總統遺忘了嗎？難道我們被教育部遺忘？還是我們不是高中職？部長，我覺得這是一個態度問題，今天它的預算到底有多少錢，其實算起來，依照教育部給本席的資料，每學年差不多是3億。它不是真的大筆到沒有辦法承受，可是它是一個公平性跟原則性的問題，這個部分有沒有能夠檢討的空間？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，謝謝委員的關心。根據我們目前高中職教育法第五十六條第一項的規定，相當程度辦理單獨招生的這些是不適用的，就法令上它目前是這樣。另外我想委員也非常清楚，現在基本上有兩派不同的一些觀點，我們也希望最近看怎麼樣能夠透過一些諮詢會議，讓我們能夠得到一個共識。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席都完全理解，但是您是教育部部長，我只請教您的態度是什麼？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想就政策的大方向，我們是樂觀其成。"],["洪委員孟楷：樂觀其成怎麼樣？"],["鄭部長英耀：就是說未來能夠兼顧社會公共性，我們希望能夠朝一體適用免學雜費的方向來努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：就是針對高中職，既然賴清德總統也說了，現在也都上路了，不管是公立學校、私立學校也都是高中職免學費了，您也認為應該是朝一體適用，全部都免學費，不要分你我，是不是？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們希望能夠在符合社會公共性的前提下，我們來努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然是符合社會公正性啊！現在就是很多的學生跟家長認為他們被排除在外是不公平的，他們有他們的講法，另外一派有另外一派的講法，所以本席剛才才會請教部長，您的態度是什麼？因為您是主事者，您懂我的意思嗎？不管怎麼樣，兩派的意見來到你這邊，到最後你要做一個綜合判斷，不判斷也是一種判斷，不然就是逃避。賴清德總統既然已經說了，高中職全面免學費，我想所有的人也都認為這句話絕對沒有超譯或是過度衍生，只要你是中華民國國民，你是臺灣的學生，你唸高中職就免學費，結果沒想到現在有一群6,030人位在化外之地，他們被排除在外。即便你再拿更多的法條出來解釋，也於事無補啊！他們就是認為他們被排除在外，他們沒有公平，所以您的態度剛剛有講到是要一體適用是嗎？能夠做檢討？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們會優先檢討相關的法令，然後朝這個方向來努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：一體適用的方向？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我們繼續努力，還是強調本席跟您都一樣，希望臺灣教育愈來愈好，我們一起加油，謝謝部長！"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["主席（林委員倩綺代）：請柯志恩委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","林倩綺","葉元之","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra 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00:00:36,347\n好部長早齁您剛剛受訪的時候說非常奇妙來備詢那也說希望台灣教育越來越好本席跟你一樣的想法我們都希望台灣教育越來越好所以我想首先也要先跟您請教因為教育很重要的就是誠實面對不管是過去現在未來都一樣您曾經\n\n3\n00:00:37,884 --> 00:00:52,938\n有在擔任中山大學校長的時候當時有政大教育系的教授周祝英指出曾經擔任中山大學校長的部長曾向他坦承卡管案是不對的部長願意證實一下嗎\n\n4\n00:00:56,363 --> 00:00:57,243\n所以卡管案是不對的你有說過這句話\n\n5\n00:01:26,616 --> 00:01:28,758\n甚至黑手或是任何政治意義都不應該介入\n\n6\n00:01:42,723 --> 00:02:05,310\n基本上我認為應該回到讓大學裡邊從專業出發就學術論學術是有的一個規範就學術論學術我想部長為什麼會特別跟您這麼請教因為過去8年蔡政府的教育成績單卡管案跟論文抄襲案其實嚴重傷害大學自主跟學術倫理\n\n7\n00:02:06,610 --> 00:02:28,675\n因此我們才會希望在新任教育部長開宗明義第一天來到教育文化委員會的時候應該要明確的說明清楚到底在你任內還會不會發生有任何政治力干預大學自主或是學術人力的事情你有信心不會再發生嗎我想在我任內我會朝那個方向努力就是不會讓它再發生對不對好\n\n8\n00:02:30,115 --> 00:02:45,463\n部長另外很多人學界也稱讚你說是作風親民但是都呼籲說應該要檢討一個政策什麼樣的政策剛剛我們有委員提到其實過去好幾年我們也都一直在質詢就所謂的課綱\n\n9\n00:02:48,197 --> 00:03:15,128\n學習歷程的部分學習歷程從過去這樣子上來已經已經淪為很多的媒體或說很多坊間都在講代工代寫軍備競賽商品抄襲化甚至你只要打學習歷程google跳出來行情價是多少部長有沒有了解各位報告對不起我不清楚不清楚有沒有聽過有沒有試著google過\n\n10\n00:03:16,638 --> 00:03:27,255\n如果說我們連一個教育部長你都不了解說現在高中生面臨到什麼樣的問題要升大學他可能會面臨到學習歷程檔案有開架16萬8有開架20萬\n\n11\n00:03:30,725 --> 00:03:30,745\n部長\n\n12\n00:03:53,172 --> 00:04:12,794\n要不要正式這樣的問題跟委員報告我想會有這樣的當然不是我們所樂見我們也並不鼓勵當然我相信一開始開宗明義講這一個政策的時候絕對不是說要讓民間做事業嘛做生意嘛但問題是現在就是推動了這幾年下來越來越多\n\n13\n00:04:13,875 --> 00:04:13,895\n有講過\n\n14\n00:04:28,772 --> 00:04:29,572\n部長你講的都非常好\n\n15\n00:04:57,388 --> 00:05:17,415\n這也都是教育人應該要有的理想但理想很豐滿現實很骨感啊現在的狀況就是這樣子那您上任之後要怎麼樣解決這個問題我想我們一定會積極的來宣導包括骨宣導不用檢討制度就是告訴大家不要去買\n\n16\n00:05:18,732 --> 00:05:29,131\n多講幾次就會有學生認為說不要去買是不是多講幾次叫你不要賣就會有人說啊對因為部長講了不要賣所以我就不賣有可能嗎\n\n17\n00:05:30,365 --> 00:05:32,488\n部長,比較誠摯的建議今年已經來不及了但是既然您上任是不是能夠在\n\n18\n00:05:50,452 --> 00:06:03,062\n這三個月半年的時間針對學習歷程檔案來做一個徹底的檢討我們把過去您有大學端的經驗把過去大學端把高中端的經驗徹底大家來做一個討論學習歷程檔案\n\n19\n00:06:05,123 --> 00:06:05,403\n謝謝部長部長\n\n20\n00:06:29,978 --> 00:06:51,265\n拉回來您上任的時候媒體也對外媒體講說首要三件事其中第一件事情是希望達到賴清德總統就職演說時候的一個目標希望能夠讓陸生來台對不對恢復陸生來台確實這一點我必須要究責一下整部教育部業務報告\n\n21\n00:06:53,103 --> 00:07:16,383\n那麼重要部長宣誓三件事三把劍照理講這三把劍如果說我是我們的同仁一定是寫在最前面寫在第一頁結果通篇我們部長的報告36頁下面報告人寫教育部部長報告您的最重要的事情沒有放在裡面為什麼\n\n22\n00:07:17,455 --> 00:07:33,567\n如果說只推說給時間來不及我想您不是今天才上任上個禮拜一的此時此刻您剛上任有整整一個禮拜的時間準備我們禮拜五我們柯志恩召委也才告知說今天會有專案報告\n\n23\n00:07:34,528 --> 00:07:55,660\n您有太多時間可以準備但沒有放在裡面原因是什麼是不確定沒有信心達成還是有難言之意我想這是我的疏忽那我們會來深切內部我們會檢討部長您算是有肩膀的人不是推給下屬而是說您自己疏忽那所以您是忘記了\n\n24\n00:07:58,475 --> 00:08:02,479\n應該說我確實是整個這個這個角色的一個改變確實是一個\n\n25\n00:08:10,351 --> 00:08:34,095\n本席不希望到明年5月公告簡章7月能夠入學的時候又說來不及所以說沒有辦法推行這樣的一個制度所以我想請教現在我們跟溝通的管道是暢通的嗎能夠確實達到明年5月公告簡章7月放榜9月入學嗎\n\n26\n00:08:35,342 --> 00:09:01,272\n我們跟委員報告我們在努力也跟陸委會這邊有多少信心能夠達成我們當然希望能夠這一個這是一個好事從教育的觀點能夠讓兩岸的年輕人當然是好事能夠交流用教育尤其您有提到平等尊嚴本市也認同一定要平等尊嚴兩岸交流本來就是這樣但我不希望看到第一2023年\n\n27\n00:09:02,893 --> 00:09:30,929\n有前總統馬英九他前往中國大陸也是平等尊嚴的一個情況帶學生去交流之後也有大陸學生組團來台交流也是平等尊嚴這兩個交流也沒有涉及到政治但當時民進黨就有委員講說這叫統戰團我們現在想說37位大學生來台灣旅遊觀光一個禮拜就可以幫他們統戰那台灣的民主也太脆弱了吧\n\n28\n00:09:32,165 --> 00:09:54,298\n所以部長你有信心明年5月能夠公告檢章7月放榜9月入學會不會變成是統戰就我個人來講我從來不從這個角度來思考是嘛我也不認為說學生平等尊嚴的交流會是統戰所以我們是不是應該在學術上面政治歸政治但學術歸學術我想我們會努力\n\n29\n00:09:56,803 --> 00:09:59,825\n部長最後我再請教賴金德總統在選舉的時候有提過說他希望能夠讓高中職全面免學費\n\n30\n00:10:22,435 --> 00:10:37,743\n但您知道到目前為止教育部真的有推動可是就有一類人他是被排除在外讓大家覺得說他好像不是我們中華民國的國人他不是我們台灣的學生哪一類人那就是獨招的獨中是有多少位\n\n31\n00:10:40,000 --> 00:11:02,555\n一屆有2000位的學生總共6030位這個是教育部長潘文忠給本席的公文總共有6030人三年剛好大概有6000多那大家也會問啊覺得奇怪明明賴清德總統在不管競選或是選舉完之後的承諾都是說高中職免學費一視同仁嗎\n\n32\n00:11:03,576 --> 00:11:25,794\n台灣的學生沒有分你我沒有分彼此沒有分階級啊但為什麼會當初他的政策宣布的時候也沒有但書啊也沒有說獨立招生不算如果說他當時有講的話大家不會去怪罪但現在變成是所有的這些家長或學生大家都覺得說奇怪難道我們被賴金的總統遺忘了嗎難道我們被教育部遺忘還是我們不是高中職\n\n33\n00:11:27,691 --> 00:11:48,339\n部長我覺得這是一個態度問題今天他的預算到底有多少錢其實算起來每學年依照教育部給本席的資料每學年差不多3億他不是一個真的大筆到沒有辦法承受可是他是一個公平性跟原則性的問題在這個部分上面有沒有能夠檢討的空間\n\n34\n00:11:49,997 --> 00:11:56,632\n要跟委員報告謝謝委員的一個關心因為根據我們目前的高中職的一個教育法第56條第一項的規定\n\n35\n00:11:59,491 --> 00:12:02,612\n本席都完全理解但是您是教育部長我只請教您的態度是什麼\n\n36\n00:12:27,847 --> 00:12:32,511\n就是高中職既然賴清德總統也說了現在也都上路了不管是公立學校私立學校也都是高中職免學費了\n\n37\n00:12:55,192 --> 00:13:20,256\n您也認為是說應該是朝一體適用全部都免學費不要分你我我們希望能夠符合社會公共性的這個前提下我們來努力當然是符合社會公正性現在就是很多的學生跟家長認為說他們被排除在外是不公平啊他們有他們的講法另外一派有另外一派的講法所以本席剛才會請教部長您的態度是什麼\n\n38\n00:13:22,159 --> 00:13:36,477\n因為您是主事者,您懂我意思嗎?不管怎麼樣兩派的意見來到你這邊到時候你要做一個綜合判斷不判斷也是一種判斷啦但就是逃避但賴清德總統竟然已經說了高中職全面免學費我想所有的人也都認為是說\n\n39\n00:13:37,958 --> 00:14:02,330\n這一句話絕對沒有抄議或是絕對沒有過度衍生就是高中職只要你念的是中華民國國民你是台灣的學生你高中職就免學費結果沒想到現在是有一群人6030人他是話外之地他被排除在外那即便你再拿更多的法條出來解釋也於事無補啊他們就會認為是說他們就被排除在外他們沒有公平啊所以您的態度剛剛有講到是要一體適用是嗎\n\n40\n00:14:03,667 --> 00:14:03,687\n謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4693\t5335\t主席謝謝麻煩請鄭部長好請部長\n14229\t36347\t好部長早齁您剛剛受訪的時候說非常奇妙來備詢那也說希望台灣教育越來越好本席跟你一樣的想法我們都希望台灣教育越來越好所以我想首先也要先跟您請教因為教育很重要的就是誠實面對不管是過去現在未來都一樣您曾經\n37884\t52938\t有在擔任中山大學校長的時候當時有政大教育系的教授周祝英指出曾經擔任中山大學校長的部長曾向他坦承卡管案是不對的部長願意證實一下嗎\n56363\t57243\t所以卡管案是不對的你有說過這句話\n86616\t88758\t甚至黑手或是任何政治意義都不應該介入\n102723\t125310\t基本上我認為應該回到讓大學裡邊從專業出發就學術論學術是有的一個規範就學術論學術我想部長為什麼會特別跟您這麼請教因為過去8年蔡政府的教育成績單卡管案跟論文抄襲案其實嚴重傷害大學自主跟學術倫理\n126610\t148675\t因此我們才會希望在新任教育部長開宗明義第一天來到教育文化委員會的時候應該要明確的說明清楚到底在你任內還會不會發生有任何政治力干預大學自主或是學術人力的事情你有信心不會再發生嗎我想在我任內我會朝那個方向努力就是不會讓它再發生對不對好\n150115\t165463\t部長另外很多人學界也稱讚你說是作風親民但是都呼籲說應該要檢討一個政策什麼樣的政策剛剛我們有委員提到其實過去好幾年我們也都一直在質詢就所謂的課綱\n168197\t195128\t學習歷程的部分學習歷程從過去這樣子上來已經已經淪為很多的媒體或說很多坊間都在講代工代寫軍備競賽商品抄襲化甚至你只要打學習歷程google跳出來行情價是多少部長有沒有了解各位報告對不起我不清楚不清楚有沒有聽過有沒有試著google過\n196638\t207255\t如果說我們連一個教育部長你都不了解說現在高中生面臨到什麼樣的問題要升大學他可能會面臨到學習歷程檔案有開架16萬8有開架20萬\n210725\t210745\t部長\n233172\t252794\t要不要正式這樣的問題跟委員報告我想會有這樣的當然不是我們所樂見我們也並不鼓勵當然我相信一開始開宗明義講這一個政策的時候絕對不是說要讓民間做事業嘛做生意嘛但問題是現在就是推動了這幾年下來越來越多\n253875\t253895\t有講過\n268772\t269572\t部長你講的都非常好\n297388\t317415\t這也都是教育人應該要有的理想但理想很豐滿現實很骨感啊現在的狀況就是這樣子那您上任之後要怎麼樣解決這個問題我想我們一定會積極的來宣導包括骨 宣導不用檢討制度就是告訴大家不要去買\n318732\t329131\t多講幾次就會有學生認為說不要去買是不是多講幾次叫你不要賣就會有人說啊對因為部長講了不要賣所以我就不賣有可能嗎\n330365\t332488\t部長,比較誠摯的建議今年已經來不及了但是既然您上任是不是能夠在\n350452\t363062\t這三個月半年的時間針對學習歷程檔案來做一個徹底的檢討我們把過去您有大學端的經驗把過去大學端把高中端的經驗徹底大家來做一個討論學習歷程檔案\n365123\t365403\t謝謝部長部長\n389978\t411265\t拉回來您上任的時候媒體也對外媒體講說首要三件事其中第一件事情是希望達到賴清德總統就職演說時候的一個目標希望能夠讓陸生來台對不對恢復陸生來台確實這一點我必須要究責一下整部教育部業務報告\n413103\t436383\t那麼重要部長宣誓三件事三把劍照理講這三把劍如果說我是我們的同仁一定是寫在最前面寫在第一頁結果通篇我們部長的報告36頁下面報告人寫教育部部長報告您的最重要的事情沒有放在裡面為什麼\n437455\t453567\t如果說只推說給時間來不及我想您不是今天才上任上個禮拜一的此時此刻您剛上任有整整一個禮拜的時間準備我們禮拜五我們柯志恩召委也才告知說今天會有專案報告\n454528\t475660\t您有太多時間可以準備但沒有放在裡面原因是什麼是不確定沒有信心達成還是有難言之意我想這是我的疏忽那我們會來深切內部我們會檢討部長您算是有肩膀的人不是推給下屬而是說您自己疏忽那所以您是忘記了\n478475\t482479\t應該說我確實是整個這個這個角色的一個改變確實是一個\n490351\t514095\t本席不希望到明年5月公告簡章7月能夠入學的時候又說來不及所以說沒有辦法推行這樣的一個制度所以我想請教現在我們跟溝通的管道是暢通的嗎能夠確實達到明年5月公告簡章7月放榜9月入學嗎\n515342\t541272\t我們跟委員報告我們在努力也跟陸委會這邊有多少信心能夠達成我們當然希望能夠這一個這是一個好事從教育的觀點能夠讓兩岸的年輕人當然是好事能夠交流用教育尤其您有提到平等尊嚴本市也認同一定要平等尊嚴兩岸交流本來就是這樣但我不希望看到第一2023年\n542893\t570929\t有前總統馬英九他前往中國大陸也是平等尊嚴的一個情況帶學生去交流之後也有大陸學生組團來台交流也是平等尊嚴這兩個交流也沒有涉及到政治但當時民進黨就有委員講說這叫統戰團我們現在想說37位大學生來台灣旅遊觀光一個禮拜就可以幫他們統戰那台灣的民主也太脆弱了吧\n572165\t594298\t所以部長你有信心明年5月能夠公告檢章7月放榜9月入學會不會變成是統戰就我個人來講我從來不從這個角度來思考是嘛我也不認為說學生平等尊嚴的交流會是統戰所以我們是不是應該在學術上面政治歸政治但學術歸學術我想我們會努力\n596803\t599825\t部長最後我再請教賴金德總統在選舉的時候有提過說他希望能夠讓高中職全面免學費\n622435\t637743\t但您知道到目前為止教育部真的有推動可是就有一類人他是被排除在外讓大家覺得說他好像不是我們中華民國的國人他不是我們台灣的學生哪一類人那就是獨招的獨中是有多少位\n640000\t662555\t一屆有2000位的學生總共6030位這個是教育部長潘文忠給本席的公文總共有6030人三年剛好大概有6000多那大家也會問啊覺得奇怪明明賴清德總統在不管競選或是選舉完之後的承諾都是說高中職免學費一視同仁嗎\n663576\t685794\t台灣的學生沒有分你我沒有分彼此沒有分階級啊但為什麼會當初他的政策宣布的時候也沒有但書啊也沒有說獨立招生不算如果說他當時有講的話大家不會去怪罪但現在變成是所有的這些家長或學生大家都覺得說奇怪難道我們被賴金的總統遺忘了嗎難道我們被教育部遺忘還是我們不是高中職\n687691\t708339\t部長我覺得這是一個態度問題今天他的預算到底有多少錢其實算起來每學年依照教育部給本席的資料每學年差不多3億他不是一個真的大筆到沒有辦法承受可是他是一個公平性跟原則性的問題在這個部分上面有沒有能夠檢討的空間\n709997\t716632\t要跟委員報告謝謝委員的一個關心因為根據我們目前的高中職的一個教育法第56條第一項的規定\n719491\t722612\t本席都完全理解但是您是教育部長我只請教您的態度是什麼\n747847\t752511\t就是高中職 既然賴清德總統也說了現在也都上路了不管是公立學校私立學校也都是高中職免學費了\n775192\t800256\t您也認為是說應該是朝一體適用全部都免學費不要分你我我們希望能夠符合社會公共性的這個前提下我們來努力當然是符合社會公正性現在就是很多的學生跟家長認為說他們被排除在外是不公平啊他們有他們的講法另外一派有另外一派的講法所以本席剛才會請教部長您的態度是什麼\n802159\t816477\t因為您是主事者,您懂我意思嗎?不管怎麼樣兩派的意見來到你這邊到時候你要做一個綜合判斷不判斷也是一種判斷啦但就是逃避但賴清德總統竟然已經說了高中職全面免學費我想所有的人也都認為是說\n817958\t842330\t這一句話絕對沒有抄議或是絕對沒有過度衍生就是高中職只要你念的是中華民國國民你是台灣的學生你高中職就免學費結果沒想到現在是有一群人6030人他是話外之地他被排除在外那即便你再拿更多的法條出來解釋也於事無補啊他們就會認為是說他們就被排除在外他們沒有公平啊所以您的態度剛剛有講到是要一體適用是嗎\n843667\t843687\t謝謝委員謝謝\n","txt":"主席謝謝麻煩請鄭部長好請部長\n好部長早齁您剛剛受訪的時候說非常奇妙來備詢那也說希望台灣教育越來越好本席跟你一樣的想法我們都希望台灣教育越來越好所以我想首先也要先跟您請教因為教育很重要的就是誠實面對不管是過去現在未來都一樣您曾經\n有在擔任中山大學校長的時候當時有政大教育系的教授周祝英指出曾經擔任中山大學校長的部長曾向他坦承卡管案是不對的部長願意證實一下嗎\n所以卡管案是不對的你有說過這句話\n甚至黑手或是任何政治意義都不應該介入\n基本上我認為應該回到讓大學裡邊從專業出發就學術論學術是有的一個規範就學術論學術我想部長為什麼會特別跟您這麼請教因為過去8年蔡政府的教育成績單卡管案跟論文抄襲案其實嚴重傷害大學自主跟學術倫理\n因此我們才會希望在新任教育部長開宗明義第一天來到教育文化委員會的時候應該要明確的說明清楚到底在你任內還會不會發生有任何政治力干預大學自主或是學術人力的事情你有信心不會再發生嗎我想在我任內我會朝那個方向努力就是不會讓它再發生對不對好\n部長另外很多人學界也稱讚你說是作風親民但是都呼籲說應該要檢討一個政策什麼樣的政策剛剛我們有委員提到其實過去好幾年我們也都一直在質詢就所謂的課綱\n學習歷程的部分學習歷程從過去這樣子上來已經已經淪為很多的媒體或說很多坊間都在講代工代寫軍備競賽商品抄襲化甚至你只要打學習歷程google跳出來行情價是多少部長有沒有了解各位報告對不起我不清楚不清楚有沒有聽過有沒有試著google過\n如果說我們連一個教育部長你都不了解說現在高中生面臨到什麼樣的問題要升大學他可能會面臨到學習歷程檔案有開架16萬8有開架20萬\n部長\n要不要正式這樣的問題跟委員報告我想會有這樣的當然不是我們所樂見我們也並不鼓勵當然我相信一開始開宗明義講這一個政策的時候絕對不是說要讓民間做事業嘛做生意嘛但問題是現在就是推動了這幾年下來越來越多\n有講過\n部長你講的都非常好\n這也都是教育人應該要有的理想但理想很豐滿現實很骨感啊現在的狀況就是這樣子那您上任之後要怎麼樣解決這個問題我想我們一定會積極的來宣導包括骨 宣導不用檢討制度就是告訴大家不要去買\n多講幾次就會有學生認為說不要去買是不是多講幾次叫你不要賣就會有人說啊對因為部長講了不要賣所以我就不賣有可能嗎\n部長,比較誠摯的建議今年已經來不及了但是既然您上任是不是能夠在\n這三個月半年的時間針對學習歷程檔案來做一個徹底的檢討我們把過去您有大學端的經驗把過去大學端把高中端的經驗徹底大家來做一個討論學習歷程檔案\n謝謝部長部長\n拉回來您上任的時候媒體也對外媒體講說首要三件事其中第一件事情是希望達到賴清德總統就職演說時候的一個目標希望能夠讓陸生來台對不對恢復陸生來台確實這一點我必須要究責一下整部教育部業務報告\n那麼重要部長宣誓三件事三把劍照理講這三把劍如果說我是我們的同仁一定是寫在最前面寫在第一頁結果通篇我們部長的報告36頁下面報告人寫教育部部長報告您的最重要的事情沒有放在裡面為什麼\n如果說只推說給時間來不及我想您不是今天才上任上個禮拜一的此時此刻您剛上任有整整一個禮拜的時間準備我們禮拜五我們柯志恩召委也才告知說今天會有專案報告\n您有太多時間可以準備但沒有放在裡面原因是什麼是不確定沒有信心達成還是有難言之意我想這是我的疏忽那我們會來深切內部我們會檢討部長您算是有肩膀的人不是推給下屬而是說您自己疏忽那所以您是忘記了\n應該說我確實是整個這個這個角色的一個改變確實是一個\n本席不希望到明年5月公告簡章7月能夠入學的時候又說來不及所以說沒有辦法推行這樣的一個制度所以我想請教現在我們跟溝通的管道是暢通的嗎能夠確實達到明年5月公告簡章7月放榜9月入學嗎\n我們跟委員報告我們在努力也跟陸委會這邊有多少信心能夠達成我們當然希望能夠這一個這是一個好事從教育的觀點能夠讓兩岸的年輕人當然是好事能夠交流用教育尤其您有提到平等尊嚴本市也認同一定要平等尊嚴兩岸交流本來就是這樣但我不希望看到第一2023年\n有前總統馬英九他前往中國大陸也是平等尊嚴的一個情況帶學生去交流之後也有大陸學生組團來台交流也是平等尊嚴這兩個交流也沒有涉及到政治但當時民進黨就有委員講說這叫統戰團我們現在想說37位大學生來台灣旅遊觀光一個禮拜就可以幫他們統戰那台灣的民主也太脆弱了吧\n所以部長你有信心明年5月能夠公告檢章7月放榜9月入學會不會變成是統戰就我個人來講我從來不從這個角度來思考是嘛我也不認為說學生平等尊嚴的交流會是統戰所以我們是不是應該在學術上面政治歸政治但學術歸學術我想我們會努力\n部長最後我再請教賴金德總統在選舉的時候有提過說他希望能夠讓高中職全面免學費\n但您知道到目前為止教育部真的有推動可是就有一類人他是被排除在外讓大家覺得說他好像不是我們中華民國的國人他不是我們台灣的學生哪一類人那就是獨招的獨中是有多少位\n一屆有2000位的學生總共6030位這個是教育部長潘文忠給本席的公文總共有6030人三年剛好大概有6000多那大家也會問啊覺得奇怪明明賴清德總統在不管競選或是選舉完之後的承諾都是說高中職免學費一視同仁嗎\n台灣的學生沒有分你我沒有分彼此沒有分階級啊但為什麼會當初他的政策宣布的時候也沒有但書啊也沒有說獨立招生不算如果說他當時有講的話大家不會去怪罪但現在變成是所有的這些家長或學生大家都覺得說奇怪難道我們被賴金的總統遺忘了嗎難道我們被教育部遺忘還是我們不是高中職\n部長我覺得這是一個態度問題今天他的預算到底有多少錢其實算起來每學年依照教育部給本席的資料每學年差不多3億他不是一個真的大筆到沒有辦法承受可是他是一個公平性跟原則性的問題在這個部分上面有沒有能夠檢討的空間\n要跟委員報告謝謝委員的一個關心因為根據我們目前的高中職的一個教育法第56條第一項的規定\n本席都完全理解但是您是教育部長我只請教您的態度是什麼\n就是高中職 既然賴清德總統也說了現在也都上路了不管是公立學校私立學校也都是高中職免學費了\n您也認為是說應該是朝一體適用全部都免學費不要分你我我們希望能夠符合社會公共性的這個前提下我們來努力當然是符合社會公正性現在就是很多的學生跟家長認為說他們被排除在外是不公平啊他們有他們的講法另外一派有另外一派的講法所以本席剛才會請教部長您的態度是什麼\n因為您是主事者,您懂我意思嗎?不管怎麼樣兩派的意見來到你這邊到時候你要做一個綜合判斷不判斷也是一種判斷啦但就是逃避但賴清德總統竟然已經說了高中職全面免學費我想所有的人也都認為是說\n這一句話絕對沒有抄議或是絕對沒有過度衍生就是高中職只要你念的是中華民國國民你是台灣的學生你高中職就免學費結果沒想到現在是有一群人6030人他是話外之地他被排除在外那即便你再拿更多的法條出來解釋也於事無補啊他們就會認為是說他們就被排除在外他們沒有公平啊所以您的態度剛剛有講到是要一體適用是嗎\n謝謝委員謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.693 --> 00:05.335\n主席謝謝麻煩請鄭部長好請部長\n\n00:14.229 --> 00:36.347\n好部長早齁您剛剛受訪的時候說非常奇妙來備詢那也說希望台灣教育越來越好本席跟你一樣的想法我們都希望台灣教育越來越好所以我想首先也要先跟您請教因為教育很重要的就是誠實面對不管是過去現在未來都一樣您曾經\n\n00:37.884 --> 00:52.938\n有在擔任中山大學校長的時候當時有政大教育系的教授周祝英指出曾經擔任中山大學校長的部長曾向他坦承卡管案是不對的部長願意證實一下嗎\n\n00:56.363 --> 00:57.243\n所以卡管案是不對的你有說過這句話\n\n01:26.616 --> 01:28.758\n甚至黑手或是任何政治意義都不應該介入\n\n01:42.723 --> 02:05.310\n基本上我認為應該回到讓大學裡邊從專業出發就學術論學術是有的一個規範就學術論學術我想部長為什麼會特別跟您這麼請教因為過去8年蔡政府的教育成績單卡管案跟論文抄襲案其實嚴重傷害大學自主跟學術倫理\n\n02:06.610 --> 02:28.675\n因此我們才會希望在新任教育部長開宗明義第一天來到教育文化委員會的時候應該要明確的說明清楚到底在你任內還會不會發生有任何政治力干預大學自主或是學術人力的事情你有信心不會再發生嗎我想在我任內我會朝那個方向努力就是不會讓它再發生對不對好\n\n02:30.115 --> 02:45.463\n部長另外很多人學界也稱讚你說是作風親民但是都呼籲說應該要檢討一個政策什麼樣的政策剛剛我們有委員提到其實過去好幾年我們也都一直在質詢就所謂的課綱\n\n02:48.197 --> 03:15.128\n學習歷程的部分學習歷程從過去這樣子上來已經已經淪為很多的媒體或說很多坊間都在講代工代寫軍備競賽商品抄襲化甚至你只要打學習歷程google跳出來行情價是多少部長有沒有了解各位報告對不起我不清楚不清楚有沒有聽過有沒有試著google過\n\n03:16.638 --> 03:27.255\n如果說我們連一個教育部長你都不了解說現在高中生面臨到什麼樣的問題要升大學他可能會面臨到學習歷程檔案有開架16萬8有開架20萬\n\n03:30.725 --> 03:30.745\n部長\n\n03:53.172 --> 04:12.794\n要不要正式這樣的問題跟委員報告我想會有這樣的當然不是我們所樂見我們也並不鼓勵當然我相信一開始開宗明義講這一個政策的時候絕對不是說要讓民間做事業嘛做生意嘛但問題是現在就是推動了這幾年下來越來越多\n\n04:13.875 --> 04:13.895\n有講過\n\n04:28.772 --> 04:29.572\n部長你講的都非常好\n\n04:57.388 --> 05:17.415\n這也都是教育人應該要有的理想但理想很豐滿現實很骨感啊現在的狀況就是這樣子那您上任之後要怎麼樣解決這個問題我想我們一定會積極的來宣導包括骨宣導不用檢討制度就是告訴大家不要去買\n\n05:18.732 --> 05:29.131\n多講幾次就會有學生認為說不要去買是不是多講幾次叫你不要賣就會有人說啊對因為部長講了不要賣所以我就不賣有可能嗎\n\n05:30.365 --> 05:32.488\n部長,比較誠摯的建議今年已經來不及了但是既然您上任是不是能夠在\n\n05:50.452 --> 06:03.062\n這三個月半年的時間針對學習歷程檔案來做一個徹底的檢討我們把過去您有大學端的經驗把過去大學端把高中端的經驗徹底大家來做一個討論學習歷程檔案\n\n06:05.123 --> 06:05.403\n謝謝部長部長\n\n06:29.978 --> 06:51.265\n拉回來您上任的時候媒體也對外媒體講說首要三件事其中第一件事情是希望達到賴清德總統就職演說時候的一個目標希望能夠讓陸生來台對不對恢復陸生來台確實這一點我必須要究責一下整部教育部業務報告\n\n06:53.103 --> 07:16.383\n那麼重要部長宣誓三件事三把劍照理講這三把劍如果說我是我們的同仁一定是寫在最前面寫在第一頁結果通篇我們部長的報告36頁下面報告人寫教育部部長報告您的最重要的事情沒有放在裡面為什麼\n\n07:17.455 --> 07:33.567\n如果說只推說給時間來不及我想您不是今天才上任上個禮拜一的此時此刻您剛上任有整整一個禮拜的時間準備我們禮拜五我們柯志恩召委也才告知說今天會有專案報告\n\n07:34.528 --> 07:55.660\n您有太多時間可以準備但沒有放在裡面原因是什麼是不確定沒有信心達成還是有難言之意我想這是我的疏忽那我們會來深切內部我們會檢討部長您算是有肩膀的人不是推給下屬而是說您自己疏忽那所以您是忘記了\n\n07:58.475 --> 08:02.479\n應該說我確實是整個這個這個角色的一個改變確實是一個\n\n08:10.351 --> 08:34.095\n本席不希望到明年5月公告簡章7月能夠入學的時候又說來不及所以說沒有辦法推行這樣的一個制度所以我想請教現在我們跟溝通的管道是暢通的嗎能夠確實達到明年5月公告簡章7月放榜9月入學嗎\n\n08:35.342 --> 09:01.272\n我們跟委員報告我們在努力也跟陸委會這邊有多少信心能夠達成我們當然希望能夠這一個這是一個好事從教育的觀點能夠讓兩岸的年輕人當然是好事能夠交流用教育尤其您有提到平等尊嚴本市也認同一定要平等尊嚴兩岸交流本來就是這樣但我不希望看到第一2023年\n\n09:02.893 --> 09:30.929\n有前總統馬英九他前往中國大陸也是平等尊嚴的一個情況帶學生去交流之後也有大陸學生組團來台交流也是平等尊嚴這兩個交流也沒有涉及到政治但當時民進黨就有委員講說這叫統戰團我們現在想說37位大學生來台灣旅遊觀光一個禮拜就可以幫他們統戰那台灣的民主也太脆弱了吧\n\n09:32.165 --> 09:54.298\n所以部長你有信心明年5月能夠公告檢章7月放榜9月入學會不會變成是統戰就我個人來講我從來不從這個角度來思考是嘛我也不認為說學生平等尊嚴的交流會是統戰所以我們是不是應該在學術上面政治歸政治但學術歸學術我想我們會努力\n\n09:56.803 --> 09:59.825\n部長最後我再請教賴金德總統在選舉的時候有提過說他希望能夠讓高中職全面免學費\n\n10:22.435 --> 10:37.743\n但您知道到目前為止教育部真的有推動可是就有一類人他是被排除在外讓大家覺得說他好像不是我們中華民國的國人他不是我們台灣的學生哪一類人那就是獨招的獨中是有多少位\n\n10:40.000 --> 11:02.555\n一屆有2000位的學生總共6030位這個是教育部長潘文忠給本席的公文總共有6030人三年剛好大概有6000多那大家也會問啊覺得奇怪明明賴清德總統在不管競選或是選舉完之後的承諾都是說高中職免學費一視同仁嗎\n\n11:03.576 --> 11:25.794\n台灣的學生沒有分你我沒有分彼此沒有分階級啊但為什麼會當初他的政策宣布的時候也沒有但書啊也沒有說獨立招生不算如果說他當時有講的話大家不會去怪罪但現在變成是所有的這些家長或學生大家都覺得說奇怪難道我們被賴金的總統遺忘了嗎難道我們被教育部遺忘還是我們不是高中職\n\n11:27.691 --> 11:48.339\n部長我覺得這是一個態度問題今天他的預算到底有多少錢其實算起來每學年依照教育部給本席的資料每學年差不多3億他不是一個真的大筆到沒有辦法承受可是他是一個公平性跟原則性的問題在這個部分上面有沒有能夠檢討的空間\n\n11:49.997 --> 11:56.632\n要跟委員報告謝謝委員的一個關心因為根據我們目前的高中職的一個教育法第56條第一項的規定\n\n11:59.491 --> 12:02.612\n本席都完全理解但是您是教育部長我只請教您的態度是什麼\n\n12:27.847 --> 12:32.511\n就是高中職既然賴清德總統也說了現在也都上路了不管是公立學校私立學校也都是高中職免學費了\n\n12:55.192 --> 13:20.256\n您也認為是說應該是朝一體適用全部都免學費不要分你我我們希望能夠符合社會公共性的這個前提下我們來努力當然是符合社會公正性現在就是很多的學生跟家長認為說他們被排除在外是不公平啊他們有他們的講法另外一派有另外一派的講法所以本席剛才會請教部長您的態度是什麼\n\n13:22.159 --> 13:36.477\n因為您是主事者,您懂我意思嗎?不管怎麼樣兩派的意見來到你這邊到時候你要做一個綜合判斷不判斷也是一種判斷啦但就是逃避但賴清德總統竟然已經說了高中職全面免學費我想所有的人也都認為是說\n\n13:37.958 --> 14:02.330\n這一句話絕對沒有抄議或是絕對沒有過度衍生就是高中職只要你念的是中華民國國民你是台灣的學生你高中職就免學費結果沒想到現在是有一群人6030人他是話外之地他被排除在外那即便你再拿更多的法條出來解釋也於事無補啊他們就會認為是說他們就被排除在外他們沒有公平啊所以您的態度剛剛有講到是要一體適用是嗎\n\n14:03.667 --> 14:03.687\n謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.693,"end":5.335,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請鄭部長好請部長"},{"start":14.229,"end":36.347,"text":"好部長早齁您剛剛受訪的時候說非常奇妙來備詢那也說希望台灣教育越來越好本席跟你一樣的想法我們都希望台灣教育越來越好所以我想首先也要先跟您請教因為教育很重要的就是誠實面對不管是過去現在未來都一樣您曾經"},{"start":37.884,"end":52.938,"text":"有在擔任中山大學校長的時候當時有政大教育系的教授周祝英指出曾經擔任中山大學校長的部長曾向他坦承卡管案是不對的部長願意證實一下嗎"},{"start":56.363,"end":57.243,"text":"所以卡管案是不對的你有說過這句話"},{"start":86.616,"end":88.758,"text":"甚至黑手或是任何政治意義都不應該介入"},{"start":102.723,"end":125.31,"text":"基本上我認為應該回到讓大學裡邊從專業出發就學術論學術是有的一個規範就學術論學術我想部長為什麼會特別跟您這麼請教因為過去8年蔡政府的教育成績單卡管案跟論文抄襲案其實嚴重傷害大學自主跟學術倫理"},{"start":126.61,"end":148.675,"text":"因此我們才會希望在新任教育部長開宗明義第一天來到教育文化委員會的時候應該要明確的說明清楚到底在你任內還會不會發生有任何政治力干預大學自主或是學術人力的事情你有信心不會再發生嗎我想在我任內我會朝那個方向努力就是不會讓它再發生對不對好"},{"start":150.115,"end":165.463,"text":"部長另外很多人學界也稱讚你說是作風親民但是都呼籲說應該要檢討一個政策什麼樣的政策剛剛我們有委員提到其實過去好幾年我們也都一直在質詢就所謂的課綱"},{"start":168.197,"end":195.128,"text":"學習歷程的部分學習歷程從過去這樣子上來已經已經淪為很多的媒體或說很多坊間都在講代工代寫軍備競賽商品抄襲化甚至你只要打學習歷程google跳出來行情價是多少部長有沒有了解各位報告對不起我不清楚不清楚有沒有聽過有沒有試著google過"},{"start":196.638,"end":207.255,"text":"如果說我們連一個教育部長你都不了解說現在高中生面臨到什麼樣的問題要升大學他可能會面臨到學習歷程檔案有開架16萬8有開架20萬"},{"start":210.725,"end":210.745,"text":"部長"},{"start":233.172,"end":252.794,"text":"要不要正式這樣的問題跟委員報告我想會有這樣的當然不是我們所樂見我們也並不鼓勵當然我相信一開始開宗明義講這一個政策的時候絕對不是說要讓民間做事業嘛做生意嘛但問題是現在就是推動了這幾年下來越來越多"},{"start":253.875,"end":253.895,"text":"有講過"},{"start":268.772,"end":269.572,"text":"部長你講的都非常好"},{"start":297.388,"end":317.415,"text":"這也都是教育人應該要有的理想但理想很豐滿現實很骨感啊現在的狀況就是這樣子那您上任之後要怎麼樣解決這個問題我想我們一定會積極的來宣導包括骨 宣導不用檢討制度就是告訴大家不要去買"},{"start":318.732,"end":329.131,"text":"多講幾次就會有學生認為說不要去買是不是多講幾次叫你不要賣就會有人說啊對因為部長講了不要賣所以我就不賣有可能嗎"},{"start":330.365,"end":332.488,"text":"部長,比較誠摯的建議今年已經來不及了但是既然您上任是不是能夠在"},{"start":350.452,"end":363.062,"text":"這三個月半年的時間針對學習歷程檔案來做一個徹底的檢討我們把過去您有大學端的經驗把過去大學端把高中端的經驗徹底大家來做一個討論學習歷程檔案"},{"start":365.123,"end":365.403,"text":"謝謝部長部長"},{"start":389.978,"end":411.265,"text":"拉回來您上任的時候媒體也對外媒體講說首要三件事其中第一件事情是希望達到賴清德總統就職演說時候的一個目標希望能夠讓陸生來台對不對恢復陸生來台確實這一點我必須要究責一下整部教育部業務報告"},{"start":413.103,"end":436.383,"text":"那麼重要部長宣誓三件事三把劍照理講這三把劍如果說我是我們的同仁一定是寫在最前面寫在第一頁結果通篇我們部長的報告36頁下面報告人寫教育部部長報告您的最重要的事情沒有放在裡面為什麼"},{"start":437.455,"end":453.567,"text":"如果說只推說給時間來不及我想您不是今天才上任上個禮拜一的此時此刻您剛上任有整整一個禮拜的時間準備我們禮拜五我們柯志恩召委也才告知說今天會有專案報告"},{"start":454.528,"end":475.66,"text":"您有太多時間可以準備但沒有放在裡面原因是什麼是不確定沒有信心達成還是有難言之意我想這是我的疏忽那我們會來深切內部我們會檢討部長您算是有肩膀的人不是推給下屬而是說您自己疏忽那所以您是忘記了"},{"start":478.475,"end":482.479,"text":"應該說我確實是整個這個這個角色的一個改變確實是一個"},{"start":490.351,"end":514.095,"text":"本席不希望到明年5月公告簡章7月能夠入學的時候又說來不及所以說沒有辦法推行這樣的一個制度所以我想請教現在我們跟溝通的管道是暢通的嗎能夠確實達到明年5月公告簡章7月放榜9月入學嗎"},{"start":515.342,"end":541.272,"text":"我們跟委員報告我們在努力也跟陸委會這邊有多少信心能夠達成我們當然希望能夠這一個這是一個好事從教育的觀點能夠讓兩岸的年輕人當然是好事能夠交流用教育尤其您有提到平等尊嚴本市也認同一定要平等尊嚴兩岸交流本來就是這樣但我不希望看到第一2023年"},{"start":542.893,"end":570.929,"text":"有前總統馬英九他前往中國大陸也是平等尊嚴的一個情況帶學生去交流之後也有大陸學生組團來台交流也是平等尊嚴這兩個交流也沒有涉及到政治但當時民進黨就有委員講說這叫統戰團我們現在想說37位大學生來台灣旅遊觀光一個禮拜就可以幫他們統戰那台灣的民主也太脆弱了吧"},{"start":572.165,"end":594.298,"text":"所以部長你有信心明年5月能夠公告檢章7月放榜9月入學會不會變成是統戰就我個人來講我從來不從這個角度來思考是嘛我也不認為說學生平等尊嚴的交流會是統戰所以我們是不是應該在學術上面政治歸政治但學術歸學術我想我們會努力"},{"start":596.803,"end":599.825,"text":"部長最後我再請教賴金德總統在選舉的時候有提過說他希望能夠讓高中職全面免學費"},{"start":622.435,"end":637.743,"text":"但您知道到目前為止教育部真的有推動可是就有一類人他是被排除在外讓大家覺得說他好像不是我們中華民國的國人他不是我們台灣的學生哪一類人那就是獨招的獨中是有多少位"},{"start":640,"end":662.555,"text":"一屆有2000位的學生總共6030位這個是教育部長潘文忠給本席的公文總共有6030人三年剛好大概有6000多那大家也會問啊覺得奇怪明明賴清德總統在不管競選或是選舉完之後的承諾都是說高中職免學費一視同仁嗎"},{"start":663.576,"end":685.794,"text":"台灣的學生沒有分你我沒有分彼此沒有分階級啊但為什麼會當初他的政策宣布的時候也沒有但書啊也沒有說獨立招生不算如果說他當時有講的話大家不會去怪罪但現在變成是所有的這些家長或學生大家都覺得說奇怪難道我們被賴金的總統遺忘了嗎難道我們被教育部遺忘還是我們不是高中職"},{"start":687.691,"end":708.339,"text":"部長我覺得這是一個態度問題今天他的預算到底有多少錢其實算起來每學年依照教育部給本席的資料每學年差不多3億他不是一個真的大筆到沒有辦法承受可是他是一個公平性跟原則性的問題在這個部分上面有沒有能夠檢討的空間"},{"start":709.997,"end":716.632,"text":"要跟委員報告謝謝委員的一個關心因為根據我們目前的高中職的一個教育法第56條第一項的規定"},{"start":719.491,"end":722.612,"text":"本席都完全理解但是您是教育部長我只請教您的態度是什麼"},{"start":747.847,"end":752.511,"text":"就是高中職 既然賴清德總統也說了現在也都上路了不管是公立學校私立學校也都是高中職免學費了"},{"start":775.192,"end":800.256,"text":"您也認為是說應該是朝一體適用全部都免學費不要分你我我們希望能夠符合社會公共性的這個前提下我們來努力當然是符合社會公正性現在就是很多的學生跟家長認為說他們被排除在外是不公平啊他們有他們的講法另外一派有另外一派的講法所以本席剛才會請教部長您的態度是什麼"},{"start":802.159,"end":816.477,"text":"因為您是主事者,您懂我意思嗎?不管怎麼樣兩派的意見來到你這邊到時候你要做一個綜合判斷不判斷也是一種判斷啦但就是逃避但賴清德總統竟然已經說了高中職全面免學費我想所有的人也都認為是說"},{"start":817.958,"end":842.33,"text":"這一句話絕對沒有抄議或是絕對沒有過度衍生就是高中職只要你念的是中華民國國民你是台灣的學生你高中職就免學費結果沒想到現在是有一群人6030人他是話外之地他被排除在外那即便你再拿更多的法條出來解釋也於事無補啊他們就會認為是說他們就被排除在外他們沒有公平啊所以您的態度剛剛有講到是要一體適用是嗎"},{"start":843.667,"end":843.687,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝"}]}}}}