{"id":152992,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152992","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b31dc8af189ee88e32fcddaa0058768d2e945ede7791f90b9e0a3ad233f9b498fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"09:39:17 - 09:52:59","影片長度":"00:13:42","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員魯明哲等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【第二案（十七）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":822,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":26,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-26"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T09:52:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T09:39:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":229,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（9時39分）謝謝主席。有請法務部徐政次。"],["主席：請次長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：司法院李廳長。"],["主席：司法院廳長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：次長好。我剛剛聽了幾位委員的質詢，至於法務部的態度，我幾乎可以看得出來你們的態度到底是什麼，可以斷得出來。但問題就是，你看各政黨裡面，每一個政黨，我們今天這個修法時效已經不是所謂政黨之間的看法問題了，連各政黨裡面的看法都有所不一樣，像我的看法就跟我其他的同事看法會不同，不要說跟國民黨的不同，我相信國民黨裡面也會有不一樣的看法。","關於時效問題，本席最擔心的是什麼？大家現在說不能讓這些加害者逍遙法外，次長剛講了一句話我倒非常贊同，如果說完全要實現正義、站在正義的觀點來看的話，任何的犯罪都不應該有時效。時效的概念，如果真的是要把加害者找出來的話，那就是可以讓他躲一時，不能讓他躲一輩子，就變成一種應報的想法。但本席最擔心的是什麼？立法院有立法院的氛圍，整個社會有整個社會的氛圍，整個世界的法學思潮會有不一樣，我很擔心到最後變成在動物園裡面立法，就是大家好開心、好開心，大家一致把它通過了，但是造成很多不可彌補的狀況。可是本席要提出來的就是為什麼會變成這樣？其實法務部真的要檢討，司法院也要檢討，因為你們沒有辦法提出一個鏗鏘有力、一錘定音，讓社會大眾足以遵循比較權威的見解，現在的氛圍是這樣，臺灣人心是浮動的。我最擔心的是什麼？我最擔心的就是我舉個例子好了，現在桃園劉邦友命案，假設法務部明天跟我說破案了，或者其他幾十年前的案子，你們跟我說破案了，我會被你們嚇死，為什麼？發生在幾十年前的案子沒有辦法破案，在幾十年後，隨著時間流逝、證人死亡，證據一直滅失，反而在幾十年後，你告訴我說真相大白了、兇手抓到了，這也很可怕！本席的看法倒也會覺得非常可怕啦！所以我反而會覺得幾十年後，像這種突然出現的情形，會不會造成更多的冤獄？","當然在整個時效的設計裡面，法務部講的是基於整體法的安定性，這當然是對的，就是整個法的安定性，但今天幾位委員提出來的案子，譬如在探討追訴權時效部分，尤其是針對兒少侵害跟性犯罪態樣的追訴，我看到兩種不同的版本，王育敏委員是增訂第八十條之一，將對未成年施以妨害性自主罪者，不應該受第八十條追訴時效的影響，也就是說，性騷擾的追訴權十年，強制性交跟強制猥褻的追訴權時效是二十年，對未成年施以這些行為，以後都不再受到時效限制。這當然也是一種對被害者的平反，感情上的一種平復，都可以理解啦！洪孟楷委員提的是第八十三條，針對未成年施以妨害性自主，可以停止追訴權時效，直到被害人已經成年或者對自身被害事實有充分認識以後開始起算，這也是一種現在其他國家有的設計，都有，但我們要講的是，針對兒少性犯罪追訴權時效可否延長的問題，當初蔡部長在司法及法制委員會的答復是追訴權是為了法的安定性。這有講等於沒講，大家都知道。接著說，追訴或通緝時就會停止進行，目前並沒有針對個別犯罪就停止時效，兒少性犯罪部分可以討論，但時效問題必須整體考量。我到現在還聽不懂這句話的意思，次長，你們的看法如何？"],["徐次長錫祥：剛才委員有特別提到，它就是一個政策、一個制度，是針對法安定性的考量，今天如果針對兒少性侵害的案子特別又拉出來，那其他的呢？是不是其他部分也有機會整個拉出來？如果是這樣，整個時效追訴權的制度會有所動搖，就是沒有一個標準，大概是這樣。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我當然知道這個意思啦！今天不同黨派的委員大家在這個地方討論這個議題，我是覺得很有價值，但是你說要形成共識，我是覺得非常困難。非常困難的一個原因，就在於我剛剛提到的，所以我也就教很多在場的法律專家，因此才特別提出過去你們部長的講法。本席一直在想的是，從過去極權統治的一些國家，譬如普魯士，我剛剛要到委員會來之前特別去查了，1851年普魯士王國在皇權統治之下，死刑追訴期幾年呢？三十年；十年以上犯行是二十年，也就是說，哪怕我叫做皇帝，這個刑法的設計，基於法安定性的考量，基於整個追訴的成本，就是正義的代價到底會有多少，當皇帝的人，他的刑法設計都有追訴權時效，現在你說站在檢察官立場，或者站在人民想要正義的立場來看，國家就是要摘奸發伏，不管犯人跑到什麼地方去，躲了N年，你就是要給我抓出來，這值得討論啦！我是覺得值得討論，但我看這些提案，主要還是因為兒少性侵往往不容易被揭露，或者自身也不清楚遭遇到什麼，像澳洲皇家調查委員會就發現兒童遭到性侵平均要花費二十四年才會被揭露，以目前追訴權時效來看，十到二十年確實顯然又不足。","另外，監察院在2021年的報告中提到，就2014到2021年這8年裡，有關性平通報案件，教師對學生的有2,949件，職員工對學生有473件，合計高達3,422件。衛福部通報的性侵害案件被害人有8,401位，其中高達一半以上的被害人是未成年人，這個部分，確實修法委員這樣的提案是有其道理。"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，我補充一點，剛才委員講到時效是十年到二十年，我們在修法兩次以後，包含刑法第二百二十七條，那個都已經是二十年到三十年，也就是會跨過他的成年，所以不是只有十年，最少都有二十年。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，我的意思是，司法院跟法務部針對這些法律的修訂，你們要大膽提出疑慮，我相信在司法及法制委員會，只要是涉及到專業，本來就是可以討論的地方，你們也不要被民粹給綁死了，這本來就會有正反意見，如果法務部跟司法院都不敢提出比較權威的見解，或者以各國的看法為例來做一個調和，那我認為你們就是失職。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：真的，真的，我是比較反對派，看起來是保守，但我是擔心啦！我是擔心啦！召委也是檢察官出身，我相信他一輩子都在摸法律，這些已經討論了幾百年，就像我剛剛提的那個普魯士王國，還有歐洲很多皇權國家，哪怕他們是帝王統治，在刑法上都有時效性的設計，為什麼？沒辦法，國家沒有那麼大的力量，否則任何只要涉及到刑事犯罪，按照民粹來看，都不應該有時效，不是嗎？之所以會有這樣的設計，就是涉及到整個追訴的成本，甚至於會浮現……這些我都很擔心，這個法律……這樣講，又會被民粹給反撲，也不太好，就是說我們不要設計一個制度出來以後，會造成更多冤獄、造成更多被害人、造成社會更大亂，因此才會有整個法律體系、法的安定性考量，大家幾百年來考慮結果，最後才會說：好吧！基於法的安定性，給它一個時效的設計，讓社會安定。不是這樣子嗎？再考慮一下，你們應該可以提出更權威的看法，大膽的提出來，我們這裡是政治議題會吵而已，法律專業議題不用擔心，好不好？法務部跟司法院，在這裡要特別鼓勵你們，不要以為我們政黨在這邊攻防就會不理性，我們是涉及到政治議題，大家會比較像動物園，其他不會！好不好？","其次，針對詐欺犯罪的部分，我要特別提醒，相信大家都知道，過去在解決車手、人頭帳戶和洗錢部分，在大家共同努力下，才有今天我們防堵了高達89億詐騙金額這樣的成果，但相對於被詐騙的數量，我們其實需要更多因應詐騙前端的手段，怎麼說呢？雖然小英政府卸任了，但我記得在小英政府最後半年裡，行政院提出了打詐專法來回應國人對詐騙案件的一個立法手段，可是民眾還是不夠滿意，今天很多委員提出加重詐欺罪第三百三十九條之四的版本，在這個基礎上，希望對整個加重詐欺罪可以以更高的刑罰來改善，本席也認為這個立意都是良善，但另外一方面，大家也必須看到，行政院在詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案中，也有相同條文的罪責跟其他配套方案，按照政院版第四十三條詐欺獲取之財物或財產上利益達一千萬元以上者，把第三百三十九條之四的法定刑一年以上七年以下，增加到三年以上十年以下，得併科三千萬元以下罰金；針對冒用公務員名義、境外機房及三人以上共犯加重其刑二分之一，亦即從原本一年以上七年以下，增加到一年六個月以上到十年六個月以下，也擴大了沒收的部分，甚至於將犯罪利得跟所用之物一併沒收，就是提高詐欺犯假釋三分之二的刑期，累犯四分之三，還有不得假釋的各種手段等，我為什麼提出這些？就是說你們有時間差啦！為什麼有時間差？這個草案是5月9號才提出來的，而委員的這些提案比你們的提案還要早，所以你們要到各個委員辦公室再去協調。召委，我到現在也沒有聽到法務部來跟我說：我們後面已經提出來了，針對你們前面的這個，我們後面提的比你們還更完備。你們在搞什麼？我看了你們的版本，後面提出來的不輸給我們，可是各立法委員提出的版本是在5月9號以前，所以召委你今天就頭痛了你知道嗎？所以我覺得法務部這樣有點……當然最近政局比較亂，問題在於你們是要修法的人，你們不能這樣子啊！你至少要讓各個辦公室知道啊！你要到羅智強委員辦公室、到翁委員辦公室裡面去講，或者到我辦公室來講說：我們後面已經提出這一些，不輸給你們立法委員，我們的配套更完整了。我沒有聽到你們這樣講，這就可惜了，好不好？要打詐的部分大家都會支持你們啦，好不好？"],["徐次長錫祥：好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：有關時效的部分，我覺得你們論述還不夠，司法院對於這個地方的論述也還不夠，這個是爭執幾百年的問題，不是對錯，而是價值選擇的問題，好不好？"],["徐次長錫祥：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員、謝謝次長，我們休息1分鐘。","休息（9時53分）","繼續開會（9時54分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接下來請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-26","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","王育敏","沈發惠","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","翁曉玲","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135102_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委\n員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案；二、繼續併案審查 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17:10:40","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-05-30 17:11:27","msg":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152992 already downloaded"},{"time":"2024-05-30 17:11:27","msg":"running whisperx with  --language zh --model large-v3 --initial_prompt '會議名稱：立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員魯明哲等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【第二案（十七）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）\n發言委員：莊瑞雄'"},{"time":"2024-05-30 17:11:53","msg":"merging result"},{"time":"2024-05-30 17:11:53","msg":"status: done"}],"result":{"json":"{\"segments\": [{\"start\": 0.009, \"end\": 1.07, \"text\": \"謝謝主席有請我們法務部徐政次請次長司法院我們李廳長司法院廳長委員好次長好我想我剛聽了\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 0.009, \"end\": 0.029, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 0.029, \"end\": 0.049, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 0.049, \"end\": 0.069, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 0.069, \"end\": 0.149, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 0.149, \"end\": 0.169, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 0.169, \"end\": 0.189, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"徐\", \"start\": 0.189, \"end\": 0.209, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 0.209, \"end\": 0.229, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 0.229, \"end\": 0.249, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 0.249, \"end\": 0.409, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, 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\"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"套\", \"start\": 780.147, \"end\": 780.167, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 780.167, \"end\": 780.267, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 780.267, \"end\": 780.287, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 780.287, \"end\": 780.307, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 780.307, \"end\": 780.327, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 780.327, \"end\": 780.347, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 780.347, \"end\": 780.367, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 780.367, \"end\": 780.448, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 780.448, \"end\": 780.468, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 780.468, \"end\": 780.488, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"則\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 799.929, \"end\": 800.009, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"允\", \"start\": 800.009, \"end\": 800.029, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"許\", \"start\": 800.029, \"end\": 800.049, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:01,070\n謝謝主席有請我們法務部徐政次請次長司法院我們李廳長司法院廳長委員好次長好我想我剛聽了\n\n2\n00:00:28,791 --> 00:00:44,522\n我們幾位委員的一個質詢,看華富的態度我幾乎可以看得出來你們的態度到底是什麼,可以斷得出來。但問題就是說,你看各個政黨裡面,每一個政黨\n\n3\n00:00:47,879 --> 00:01:09,945\n這一條我們今天這個修法時效已經不是所謂的政黨之間的看法的問題了。連各政黨裡面看法都有所不一樣。像我的看法就跟我其他的同事看法會不同。不要說跟國民黨的不同。我相信國民黨裡面也會有不一樣的一個看法。時效本席最擔心的就是什麼?大家現在在講說\n\n4\n00:01:12,726 --> 00:01:41,321\n不能讓這些加害者逍遙法外。那次長剛講的一句話我都非常贊同啊。如果說完全要實現正義站在正義的一個觀點來看的話那任何的犯罪都不應該要失效啊。就你跑到你躲的就是失效的概念如果真的是要把這個加害者找出來的話那就是不能讓他躲一時可以讓他躲一時就不能讓他躲一輩子啊。\n\n5\n00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:43,042\n但本期最擔心的是什麼?\n\n6\n00:01:47,443 --> 00:02:13,646\n立法院也立法院的氛圍整個社會有整個社會的氛圍那整個世界的法學的思潮會有不一樣我很擔心到最後變成在動物園裡面立法就大家噢好開心好開心大家一致把它給通過但是造成很多這個不可彌補的一個狀況可是呢本席要提出來的就是說為什麼會變成這樣其實法務部真的要檢討\n\n7\n00:02:15,416 --> 00:02:41,136\n司法院也要檢討因為你們沒有辦法提出一個鏗鏘有力一錘定音讓世衛大眾足以遵循就是比較權威的一個見解現在的氛圍是這樣台灣人心是浮動的你像比如說我最擔心的是什麼呢我最擔心的就是說我舉個例子好了你說現在桃園的劉邦有的命案假設你們法務部跟我說明年跟我說破案了\n\n8\n00:02:42,776 --> 00:03:04,566\n或者其他這幾十年前的案子你們跟我說破案啦我會被你們嚇死為什麼發生在幾十年前沒有辦法破案在幾十年後證據一直蔑視時間的流逝證人的死亡反而是幾十年後你們告訴我說真相大白了兇手抓到了這也很可怕\n\n9\n00:03:05,854 --> 00:03:08,999\n這也會本席我的看法我倒也會覺得非常可怕那時候我反而會覺得說幾十年後\n\n10\n00:03:14,653 --> 00:03:15,233\n則不予審查．則不予審查．\n\n11\n00:03:37,069 --> 00:03:58,997\n追溯權時效尤其是針對兒少侵害跟性犯罪的太陽裡面的一個追溯我就看到兩種不同的版本王玉敏王委員是政令八十條之一將對未成年施以妨礙性自主罪不應該受到八十條追溯時效的一個影響也就是說性騷擾的追溯權十年強制性交跟強制尾稅的追溯權時效都是二十年\n\n12\n00:04:00,097 --> 00:04:26,673\n這對未成年失語這些行為以後都不再受到時效的一個限制。這當然也是一種對被害者的一種平反感情上的一種平復都可以理解啦。我孟凱委員的是八十三條針對未成年失語妨礙性自主可以停止追溯權時效直到被害人已經成年或者自身被害事實有充分認識以後開始起算。這個也是一種現在有其他的國家的這樣的一個設計都會有。\n\n13\n00:04:28,174 --> 00:04:31,607\n但我們要講的就是說其實我看過去從蔡部長在\n\n14\n00:04:32,904 --> 00:04:53,591\n社會法治委員會裏面我看到他的答詢是針對兒少性犯罪追溯權時效可否延長當初蔡部長的答覆說追溯權時效是為了法的安定性有講等於沒講這大家都知道的追溯或通緝時候就會停止進行目前沒有針對個別犯罪就停止時效兒少性犯罪部分可以討論但時效問題必須整體考量我到現在還聽不懂這句話的意思啦市長您的看法是什麼\n\n15\n00:05:00,828 --> 00:05:25,797\n因為剛才委員有特別提到他就是一個政策又就是一個制度就是對於法安定性的考量那今天如果針對兒少性侵害的案子特別又拉出來那其他的呢是不是其他的也有機會就整個就拉出來那整個可能整個這一個時效追溯權的這個制度會有動搖就是沒有一個標準\n\n16\n00:05:28,128 --> 00:05:55,980\n我當然知道這個意思啦所以今天我看不同黨派的委員大家在這個地方討論這個議題我是覺得很有他的一個價值啦但是你說要形成共識我是覺得是非常困難非常困難的一個原因就在於我剛所提到的啊所以我也救教很多的一個在場的一些法律的一個專家所以特別才會提出說你們過去的部長的講法是如此嘛那我本席一直在想的就是說\n\n17\n00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:24,355\n從過去這個極權統治的一些國家你說普魯士我剛要到委員會來我特別去查了1851年普魯士王國那個就是皇權統治之下死刑是幾年呢?30年10年以上呢?是20年也就是說哪怕我叫做皇帝\n\n18\n00:06:25,728 --> 00:06:43,564\n我這個刑法的設計我基於整個法的安定性的考量我基於你像比如說整個追溯的一個成本就是正義的一個代價到底會有多少當皇帝的人他的刑法的設計都有追溯權時效\n\n19\n00:06:45,847 --> 00:06:56,222\n現在你說站在檢察官的立場,或者說站在人民的那種想要的正義的立場來看的話,你國家就是要給我在尖發福。不管他討論到什麼地方去,他躲了N年,你就給我抓出來。\n\n20\n00:06:58,948 --> 00:07:24,068\n值得討論我是覺得值得討論但是呢我看這些提案裡面主要是因為兒少性侵往往不容易被揭露或者自身也不清楚自己遭遇到些什麼你像是澳洲他們皇家調查委員會就發現兒童遭到性侵平均要發揮到24年才會被揭露那以目前追溯權時效來看10到20年確實又顯然又不足\n\n21\n00:07:26,226 --> 00:07:51,783\n那另外你去看監察院在二零二一年所做的報告當中啊就二零一四到二零二一這八年裡面教師對學生兩千九百四十九件職員工對學生四百七十三件這種通報性平案件呢就高達三千四百二十二件衛福部裡面的通報裡面的性侵害案件裡面悲哀人八千四百零一啊高達一半以上悲哀人都是未成年人\n\n22\n00:07:53,203 --> 00:08:14,538\n確實這個部分這一些修法的委員這樣的提案又有他的道理。報告委員我們補充一點好不好。來來來。剛才委員有講到時效是10年到20年。我們在修法兩次以後其實包含了227刑法227那個都已經是20年到30年。就會跨過他的成年。\n\n23\n00:08:16,722 --> 00:08:41,871\n所以不是說只有十年,最少都二十年。是,所以我的意思就是為什麼說司法院跟我們法務部這個地方啊,針對這些法律的一個修訂,你們要大膽去提出這個疑慮啊。我相信在司法法制委員會啊,它本來就是可以,只要是涉及到專業的,都是可以討論的地方。你們也不要被民粹給綁死啦。這本來就會有正反。\n\n24\n00:08:42,952 --> 00:08:54,296\n本來就會有正反如果說法務部跟司法院你們都不敢去提出比較權威的一個見解或者各國的看法是如此來做一個調和的話那我認為你們就是失職了是\n\n25\n00:08:56,636 --> 00:09:20,516\n真的真的我是我是我是我這個是比較反對派啊看起來是保守啊但是我是擔心啊我是招惠也是假官出身啊我相信他一輩子都在摸法律啊這些是討論了幾百年啊討論了幾百年啊就像我提的啊剛剛那個波魯斯王國啊像歐歐洲很多王權國家啊他們哪怕他們是帝王統治啊\n\n26\n00:09:21,687 --> 00:09:34,114\n在刑法的設計都有實效的設計為什麼沒辦法國家就是沒有大門大的一個力量否則任何只要涉及到刑事犯罪按照民粹來看的話都不應該有實效不是嗎\n\n27\n00:09:37,739 --> 00:10:05,317\n所以我會這樣設計就是涉及到整個追溯的一個成本甚至於會浮現我都很擔心喔這個法律這樣講又會被這個民粹給反撲也不太好就是說我們不要設計一個制度出來以後會造成更多的煙獄造成更多的被害人造成更社會大亂才會有整個法律體系法的安定性的考量到最後大家幾百年來考慮出來就說好吧就基於法的安定性給他一個實效的設計\n\n28\n00:10:06,998 --> 00:10:31,727\n讓社會去安定。不是這樣子嗎?所以再考慮一下應該可以再提出你們更權威的看法大膽的提出來啦。我家是政治議題也差而已啦。法律專業議題不用擔心啦好不好。這個法務部跟那個司法院這個要特別跟你們鼓勵啦。不要以為我們這個政黨在這邊攻防就我們不理性。我們是涉及到政治議題大家會比較像動物園。其他不會好不好。那另外啊\n\n29\n00:10:32,887 --> 00:10:54,818\n這個針對第二個詐欺犯罪的部分我特別要提醒我特別要提醒我相信大家都知道過去在解決這個車手跟人頭賬戶跟洗錢的部分啊這個大家共同努力還有今天我們去防堵了高達八十九億的詐騙金額這樣的一個成果但是相對於說被詐騙的數量我們其實需要有更多因應詐騙前端的手段\n\n30\n00:10:55,658 --> 00:11:04,542\n怎麼說呢我記得小英政府卸任了最後半年裡面行政院裡面也去提出打詐專法這個就是在回應國人對詐騙的一個立法的一個手段可是民眾是不滿意的還是不夠滿意的但今天很多委員提出的加重詐欺339之四的版本裡面就在這個基礎上\n\n31\n00:11:17,628 --> 00:11:34,106\n就希望對整個加重詐欺可以更高的一個刑法以便去改善我認為本席也認為這個利益都良善但另外一方面你也必須要去看到行政院你詐欺犯罪的危害防治當中啊你們也有相同條文的罪責跟其他的配套的一個方案喔\n\n32\n00:11:34,767 --> 00:12:00,384\n所以說你按照你正願版四十三條這個詐欺獲取財富跟獲得高達一千萬以上的你就增加了三三九之四法定刑一年以上七年以下增加到三年以上啦你也去增加啦並併科三千萬以下的一個罰金那針對冒名公務員境外機房跟三年以上共犯加重期刑二分之一啊你都從原本一年以上到七年以下的你增加到一年六個月到十年六個月以下\n\n33\n00:12:01,024 --> 00:12:23,280\n也擴大了去沒收的一個部分甚至於將犯罪利德跟所用之物一併沒收就是說你去提高詐欺犯假釋三分之二的刑期累犯四分之三還有不得假釋的手段為什麼提出這些就是說你們有時間差為什麼要有時間差你這一些啊\n\n34\n00:12:24,261 --> 00:12:34,244\n草案你五月九號才提出啦,這些委員的提案是比你還要早啦,所以你們要跟各個辦公室去再去做一個協調看看。你至少我沒有,欸莊瑞我到現在也沒聽到,我不來跟他說,欸我們後面已經提出來了,你們前面這個我後面比你還更完備。\n\n35\n00:12:44,858 --> 00:12:53,083\n你們在搞什麼我看了你們的版本後面提出來的不輸給我們啊可是我們立法委員各委員提出的版本是5月9號以前啊\n\n36\n00:12:54,983 --> 00:13:00,488\n所以趙偉你今天就拖了你知道嗎?所以這個喔法務部我是覺得這個有點喔你們這樣喔當然最近政局比較亂可是問題是說你們要修法的人你們不能這樣子啊你是要讓各個辦公室知道啊你要到羅志強委員辦公室到歐委員辦公室裡面去講或者到我辦公室來講說我們後面已經提出這些了不輸給你們立法委員的你們的配套更完整了我沒有聽到你們這樣講\n\n37\n00:13:19,929 --> 00:13:20,049\n則不允許\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9\t1070\t謝謝主席有請我們法務部徐政次請次長司法院我們李廳長司法院廳長委員好次長好我想我剛聽了\n28791\t44522\t我們幾位委員的一個質詢,看華富的態度我幾乎可以看得出來你們的態度到底是什麼,可以斷得出來。但問題就是說,你看各個政黨裡面,每一個政黨\n47879\t69945\t這一條我們今天這個修法時效已經不是所謂的政黨之間的看法的問題了。連各政黨裡面看法都有所不一樣。像我的看法就跟我其他的同事看法會不同。不要說跟國民黨的不同。我相信國民黨裡面也會有不一樣的一個看法。時效本席最擔心的就是什麼?大家現在在講說\n72726\t101321\t不能讓這些加害者逍遙法外。那次長剛講的一句話我都非常贊同啊。如果說完全要實現正義站在正義的一個觀點來看的話那任何的犯罪都不應該要失效啊。就你跑到你躲的就是失效的概念如果真的是要把這個加害者找出來的話那就是不能讓他躲一時可以讓他躲一時就不能讓他躲一輩子啊。\n102520\t103042\t但本期最擔心的是什麼?\n107443\t133646\t立法院也立法院的氛圍整個社會有整個社會的氛圍那整個世界的法學的思潮會有不一樣我很擔心到最後變成在動物園裡面立法就大家噢好開心好開心大家一致把它給通過但是造成很多這個不可彌補的一個狀況可是呢本席要提出來的就是說為什麼會變成這樣其實法務部真的要檢討\n135416\t161136\t司法院也要檢討因為你們沒有辦法提出一個鏗鏘有力一錘定音讓世衛大眾足以遵循就是比較權威的一個見解現在的氛圍是這樣台灣人心是浮動的你像比如說我最擔心的是什麼呢我最擔心的就是說我舉個例子好了你說現在桃園的劉邦有的命案假設你們法務部跟我說明年跟我說破案了\n162776\t184566\t或者其他這幾十年前的案子你們跟我說破案啦我會被你們嚇死為什麼發生在幾十年前沒有辦法破案在幾十年後證據一直蔑視時間的流逝證人的死亡反而是幾十年後你們告訴我說真相大白了兇手抓到了這也很可怕\n185854\t188999\t這也會本席我的看法我倒也會覺得非常可怕那時候我反而會覺得說幾十年後\n194653\t195233\t則不予審查 ．則不予審查 ．\n217069\t238997\t追溯權時效尤其是針對兒少侵害跟性犯罪的太陽裡面的一個追溯我就看到兩種不同的版本王玉敏王委員是政令八十條之一將對未成年施以妨礙性自主罪不應該受到八十條追溯時效的一個影響也就是說性騷擾的追溯權十年強制性交跟強制尾稅的追溯權時效都是二十年\n240097\t266673\t這對未成年失語這些行為以後都不再受到時效的一個限制。這當然也是一種對被害者的一種平反感情上的一種平復都可以理解啦。我孟凱委員的是八十三條針對未成年失語妨礙性自主可以停止追溯權時效直到被害人已經成年或者自身被害事實有充分認識以後開始起算。這個也是一種現在有其他的國家的這樣的一個設計都會有。\n268174\t271607\t但我們要講的就是說其實我看過去從蔡部長在\n272904\t293591\t社會法治委員會裏面我看到他的答詢是針對兒少性犯罪追溯權時效可否延長當初蔡部長的答覆說追溯權時效是為了法的安定性有講等於沒講這大家都知道的追溯或通緝時候就會停止進行目前沒有針對個別犯罪就停止時效兒少性犯罪部分可以討論但時效問題必須整體考量我到現在還聽不懂這句話的意思啦市長您的看法是什麼\n300828\t325797\t因為剛才委員有特別提到他就是一個政策又就是一個制度就是對於法安定性的考量那今天如果針對兒少性侵害的案子特別又拉出來那其他的呢是不是其他的也有機會就整個就拉出來那整個可能整個這一個時效追溯權的這個制度會有動搖就是沒有一個標準\n328128\t355980\t我當然知道這個意思啦所以今天我看不同黨派的委員大家在這個地方討論這個議題我是覺得很有他的一個價值啦但是你說要形成共識我是覺得是非常困難非常困難的一個原因就在於我剛所提到的啊所以我也救教很多的一個在場的一些法律的一個專家所以特別才會提出說你們過去的部長的講法是如此嘛那我本席一直在想的就是說\n360800\t384355\t從過去這個極權統治的一些國家你說普魯士我剛要到委員會來我特別去查了1851年普魯士王國那個就是皇權統治之下死刑是幾年呢?30年10年以上呢?是20年也就是說哪怕我叫做皇帝\n385728\t403564\t我這個刑法的設計我基於整個法的安定性的考量我基於你像比如說整個追溯的一個成本就是正義的一個代價到底會有多少當皇帝的人他的刑法的設計都有追溯權時效\n405847\t416222\t現在你說站在檢察官的立場,或者說站在人民的那種想要的正義的立場來看的話,你國家就是要給我在尖發福。不管他討論到什麼地方去,他躲了N年,你就給我抓出來。\n418948\t444068\t值得討論我是覺得值得討論但是呢我看這些提案裡面主要是因為兒少性侵往往不容易被揭露或者自身也不清楚自己遭遇到些什麼你像是澳洲他們皇家調查委員會就發現兒童遭到性侵平均要發揮到24年才會被揭露那以目前追溯權時效來看10到20年確實又顯然又不足\n446226\t471783\t那另外你去看監察院在二零二一年所做的報告當中啊就二零一四到二零二一這八年裡面教師對學生兩千九百四十九件職員工對學生四百七十三件這種通報性平案件呢就高達三千四百二十二件衛福部裡面的通報裡面的性侵害案件裡面悲哀人八千四百零一啊高達一半以上悲哀人都是未成年人\n473203\t494538\t確實這個部分這一些修法的委員這樣的提案又有他的道理。報告委員我們補充一點好不好。來來來。剛才委員有講到時效是10年到20年。我們在修法兩次以後其實包含了227刑法227那個都已經是20年到30年。就會跨過他的成年。\n496722\t521871\t所以不是說只有十年,最少都二十年。是,所以我的意思就是為什麼說司法院跟我們法務部這個地方啊,針對這些法律的一個修訂,你們要大膽去提出這個疑慮啊。我相信在司法法制委員會啊,它本來就是可以,只要是涉及到專業的,都是可以討論的地方。你們也不要被民粹給綁死啦。這本來就會有正反。\n522952\t534296\t本來就會有正反如果說法務部跟司法院你們都不敢去提出比較權威的一個見解或者各國的看法是如此來做一個調和的話那我認為你們就是失職了是\n536636\t560516\t真的真的我是我是我是我這個是比較反對派啊看起來是保守啊但是我是擔心啊我是招惠也是假官出身啊我相信他一輩子都在摸法律啊這些是討論了幾百年啊討論了幾百年啊就像我提的啊剛剛那個波魯斯王國啊像歐歐洲很多王權國家啊他們哪怕他們是帝王統治啊\n561687\t574114\t在刑法的設計都有實效的設計為什麼沒辦法國家就是沒有大門大的一個力量否則任何只要涉及到刑事犯罪按照民粹來看的話都不應該有實效不是嗎\n577739\t605317\t所以我會這樣設計就是涉及到整個追溯的一個成本甚至於會浮現我都很擔心喔這個法律這樣講又會被這個民粹給反撲也不太好就是說我們不要設計一個制度出來以後會造成更多的煙獄造成更多的被害人造成更社會大亂才會有整個法律體系法的安定性的考量到最後大家幾百年來考慮出來就說好吧就基於法的安定性給他一個實效的設計\n606998\t631727\t讓社會去安定。不是這樣子嗎?所以再考慮一下應該可以再提出你們更權威的看法大膽的提出來啦。我家是政治議題也差而已啦。法律專業議題不用擔心啦好不好。這個法務部跟那個司法院這個要特別跟你們鼓勵啦。不要以為我們這個政黨在這邊攻防就我們不理性。我們是涉及到政治議題大家會比較像動物園。其他不會好不好。那另外啊\n632887\t654818\t這個針對第二個詐欺犯罪的部分我特別要提醒我特別要提醒我相信大家都知道過去在解決這個車手跟人頭賬戶跟洗錢的部分啊這個大家共同努力還有今天我們去防堵了高達八十九億的詐騙金額這樣的一個成果但是相對於說被詐騙的數量我們其實需要有更多因應詐騙前端的手段\n655658\t664542\t怎麼說呢我記得小英政府卸任了最後半年裡面行政院裡面也去提出打詐專法這個就是在回應國人對詐騙的一個立法的一個手段可是民眾是不滿意的還是不夠滿意的但今天很多委員提出的加重詐欺339之四的版本裡面就在這個基礎上\n677628\t694106\t就希望對整個加重詐欺可以更高的一個刑法以便去改善我認為本席也認為這個利益都良善但另外一方面你也必須要去看到行政院你詐欺犯罪的危害防治當中啊你們也有相同條文的罪責跟其他的配套的一個方案喔\n694767\t720384\t所以說你按照你正願版四十三條這個詐欺獲取財富跟獲得高達一千萬以上的你就增加了三三九之四法定刑一年以上七年以下增加到三年以上啦你也去增加啦並併科三千萬以下的一個罰金那針對冒名公務員境外機房跟三年以上共犯加重期刑二分之一啊你都從原本一年以上到七年以下的你增加到一年六個月到十年六個月以下\n721024\t743280\t也擴大了去沒收的一個部分甚至於將犯罪利德跟所用之物一併沒收就是說你去提高詐欺犯假釋三分之二的刑期累犯四分之三還有不得假釋的手段為什麼提出這些就是說你們有時間差為什麼要有時間差你這一些啊\n744261\t754244\t草案你五月九號才提出啦,這些委員的提案是比你還要早啦,所以你們要跟各個辦公室去再去做一個協調看看。你至少我沒有,欸莊瑞我到現在也沒聽到,我不來跟他說,欸我們後面已經提出來了,你們前面這個我後面比你還更完備。\n764858\t773083\t你們在搞什麼我看了你們的版本後面提出來的不輸給我們啊可是我們立法委員各委員提出的版本是5月9號以前啊\n774983\t780488\t所以趙偉你今天就拖了你知道嗎?所以這個喔法務部我是覺得這個有點喔你們這樣喔當然最近政局比較亂可是問題是說你們要修法的人你們不能這樣子啊你是要讓各個辦公室知道啊你要到羅志強委員辦公室到歐委員辦公室裡面去講或者到我辦公室來講說我們後面已經提出這些了不輸給你們立法委員的你們的配套更完整了我沒有聽到你們這樣講\n799929\t800049\t則不允許\n","txt":"謝謝主席有請我們法務部徐政次請次長司法院我們李廳長司法院廳長委員好次長好我想我剛聽了\n我們幾位委員的一個質詢,看華富的態度我幾乎可以看得出來你們的態度到底是什麼,可以斷得出來。但問題就是說,你看各個政黨裡面,每一個政黨\n這一條我們今天這個修法時效已經不是所謂的政黨之間的看法的問題了。連各政黨裡面看法都有所不一樣。像我的看法就跟我其他的同事看法會不同。不要說跟國民黨的不同。我相信國民黨裡面也會有不一樣的一個看法。時效本席最擔心的就是什麼?大家現在在講說\n不能讓這些加害者逍遙法外。那次長剛講的一句話我都非常贊同啊。如果說完全要實現正義站在正義的一個觀點來看的話那任何的犯罪都不應該要失效啊。就你跑到你躲的就是失效的概念如果真的是要把這個加害者找出來的話那就是不能讓他躲一時可以讓他躲一時就不能讓他躲一輩子啊。\n但本期最擔心的是什麼?\n立法院也立法院的氛圍整個社會有整個社會的氛圍那整個世界的法學的思潮會有不一樣我很擔心到最後變成在動物園裡面立法就大家噢好開心好開心大家一致把它給通過但是造成很多這個不可彌補的一個狀況可是呢本席要提出來的就是說為什麼會變成這樣其實法務部真的要檢討\n司法院也要檢討因為你們沒有辦法提出一個鏗鏘有力一錘定音讓世衛大眾足以遵循就是比較權威的一個見解現在的氛圍是這樣台灣人心是浮動的你像比如說我最擔心的是什麼呢我最擔心的就是說我舉個例子好了你說現在桃園的劉邦有的命案假設你們法務部跟我說明年跟我說破案了\n或者其他這幾十年前的案子你們跟我說破案啦我會被你們嚇死為什麼發生在幾十年前沒有辦法破案在幾十年後證據一直蔑視時間的流逝證人的死亡反而是幾十年後你們告訴我說真相大白了兇手抓到了這也很可怕\n這也會本席我的看法我倒也會覺得非常可怕那時候我反而會覺得說幾十年後\n則不予審查 ．則不予審查 ．\n追溯權時效尤其是針對兒少侵害跟性犯罪的太陽裡面的一個追溯我就看到兩種不同的版本王玉敏王委員是政令八十條之一將對未成年施以妨礙性自主罪不應該受到八十條追溯時效的一個影響也就是說性騷擾的追溯權十年強制性交跟強制尾稅的追溯權時效都是二十年\n這對未成年失語這些行為以後都不再受到時效的一個限制。這當然也是一種對被害者的一種平反感情上的一種平復都可以理解啦。我孟凱委員的是八十三條針對未成年失語妨礙性自主可以停止追溯權時效直到被害人已經成年或者自身被害事實有充分認識以後開始起算。這個也是一種現在有其他的國家的這樣的一個設計都會有。\n但我們要講的就是說其實我看過去從蔡部長在\n社會法治委員會裏面我看到他的答詢是針對兒少性犯罪追溯權時效可否延長當初蔡部長的答覆說追溯權時效是為了法的安定性有講等於沒講這大家都知道的追溯或通緝時候就會停止進行目前沒有針對個別犯罪就停止時效兒少性犯罪部分可以討論但時效問題必須整體考量我到現在還聽不懂這句話的意思啦市長您的看法是什麼\n因為剛才委員有特別提到他就是一個政策又就是一個制度就是對於法安定性的考量那今天如果針對兒少性侵害的案子特別又拉出來那其他的呢是不是其他的也有機會就整個就拉出來那整個可能整個這一個時效追溯權的這個制度會有動搖就是沒有一個標準\n我當然知道這個意思啦所以今天我看不同黨派的委員大家在這個地方討論這個議題我是覺得很有他的一個價值啦但是你說要形成共識我是覺得是非常困難非常困難的一個原因就在於我剛所提到的啊所以我也救教很多的一個在場的一些法律的一個專家所以特別才會提出說你們過去的部長的講法是如此嘛那我本席一直在想的就是說\n從過去這個極權統治的一些國家你說普魯士我剛要到委員會來我特別去查了1851年普魯士王國那個就是皇權統治之下死刑是幾年呢?30年10年以上呢?是20年也就是說哪怕我叫做皇帝\n我這個刑法的設計我基於整個法的安定性的考量我基於你像比如說整個追溯的一個成本就是正義的一個代價到底會有多少當皇帝的人他的刑法的設計都有追溯權時效\n現在你說站在檢察官的立場,或者說站在人民的那種想要的正義的立場來看的話,你國家就是要給我在尖發福。不管他討論到什麼地方去,他躲了N年,你就給我抓出來。\n值得討論我是覺得值得討論但是呢我看這些提案裡面主要是因為兒少性侵往往不容易被揭露或者自身也不清楚自己遭遇到些什麼你像是澳洲他們皇家調查委員會就發現兒童遭到性侵平均要發揮到24年才會被揭露那以目前追溯權時效來看10到20年確實又顯然又不足\n那另外你去看監察院在二零二一年所做的報告當中啊就二零一四到二零二一這八年裡面教師對學生兩千九百四十九件職員工對學生四百七十三件這種通報性平案件呢就高達三千四百二十二件衛福部裡面的通報裡面的性侵害案件裡面悲哀人八千四百零一啊高達一半以上悲哀人都是未成年人\n確實這個部分這一些修法的委員這樣的提案又有他的道理。報告委員我們補充一點好不好。來來來。剛才委員有講到時效是10年到20年。我們在修法兩次以後其實包含了227刑法227那個都已經是20年到30年。就會跨過他的成年。\n所以不是說只有十年,最少都二十年。是,所以我的意思就是為什麼說司法院跟我們法務部這個地方啊,針對這些法律的一個修訂,你們要大膽去提出這個疑慮啊。我相信在司法法制委員會啊,它本來就是可以,只要是涉及到專業的,都是可以討論的地方。你們也不要被民粹給綁死啦。這本來就會有正反。\n本來就會有正反如果說法務部跟司法院你們都不敢去提出比較權威的一個見解或者各國的看法是如此來做一個調和的話那我認為你們就是失職了是\n真的真的我是我是我是我這個是比較反對派啊看起來是保守啊但是我是擔心啊我是招惠也是假官出身啊我相信他一輩子都在摸法律啊這些是討論了幾百年啊討論了幾百年啊就像我提的啊剛剛那個波魯斯王國啊像歐歐洲很多王權國家啊他們哪怕他們是帝王統治啊\n在刑法的設計都有實效的設計為什麼沒辦法國家就是沒有大門大的一個力量否則任何只要涉及到刑事犯罪按照民粹來看的話都不應該有實效不是嗎\n所以我會這樣設計就是涉及到整個追溯的一個成本甚至於會浮現我都很擔心喔這個法律這樣講又會被這個民粹給反撲也不太好就是說我們不要設計一個制度出來以後會造成更多的煙獄造成更多的被害人造成更社會大亂才會有整個法律體系法的安定性的考量到最後大家幾百年來考慮出來就說好吧就基於法的安定性給他一個實效的設計\n讓社會去安定。不是這樣子嗎?所以再考慮一下應該可以再提出你們更權威的看法大膽的提出來啦。我家是政治議題也差而已啦。法律專業議題不用擔心啦好不好。這個法務部跟那個司法院這個要特別跟你們鼓勵啦。不要以為我們這個政黨在這邊攻防就我們不理性。我們是涉及到政治議題大家會比較像動物園。其他不會好不好。那另外啊\n這個針對第二個詐欺犯罪的部分我特別要提醒我特別要提醒我相信大家都知道過去在解決這個車手跟人頭賬戶跟洗錢的部分啊這個大家共同努力還有今天我們去防堵了高達八十九億的詐騙金額這樣的一個成果但是相對於說被詐騙的數量我們其實需要有更多因應詐騙前端的手段\n怎麼說呢我記得小英政府卸任了最後半年裡面行政院裡面也去提出打詐專法這個就是在回應國人對詐騙的一個立法的一個手段可是民眾是不滿意的還是不夠滿意的但今天很多委員提出的加重詐欺339之四的版本裡面就在這個基礎上\n就希望對整個加重詐欺可以更高的一個刑法以便去改善我認為本席也認為這個利益都良善但另外一方面你也必須要去看到行政院你詐欺犯罪的危害防治當中啊你們也有相同條文的罪責跟其他的配套的一個方案喔\n所以說你按照你正願版四十三條這個詐欺獲取財富跟獲得高達一千萬以上的你就增加了三三九之四法定刑一年以上七年以下增加到三年以上啦你也去增加啦並併科三千萬以下的一個罰金那針對冒名公務員境外機房跟三年以上共犯加重期刑二分之一啊你都從原本一年以上到七年以下的你增加到一年六個月到十年六個月以下\n也擴大了去沒收的一個部分甚至於將犯罪利德跟所用之物一併沒收就是說你去提高詐欺犯假釋三分之二的刑期累犯四分之三還有不得假釋的手段為什麼提出這些就是說你們有時間差為什麼要有時間差你這一些啊\n草案你五月九號才提出啦,這些委員的提案是比你還要早啦,所以你們要跟各個辦公室去再去做一個協調看看。你至少我沒有,欸莊瑞我到現在也沒聽到,我不來跟他說,欸我們後面已經提出來了,你們前面這個我後面比你還更完備。\n你們在搞什麼我看了你們的版本後面提出來的不輸給我們啊可是我們立法委員各委員提出的版本是5月9號以前啊\n所以趙偉你今天就拖了你知道嗎?所以這個喔法務部我是覺得這個有點喔你們這樣喔當然最近政局比較亂可是問題是說你們要修法的人你們不能這樣子啊你是要讓各個辦公室知道啊你要到羅志強委員辦公室到歐委員辦公室裡面去講或者到我辦公室來講說我們後面已經提出這些了不輸給你們立法委員的你們的配套更完整了我沒有聽到你們這樣講\n則不允許\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.009 --> 00:01.070\n謝謝主席有請我們法務部徐政次請次長司法院我們李廳長司法院廳長委員好次長好我想我剛聽了\n\n00:28.791 --> 00:44.522\n我們幾位委員的一個質詢,看華富的態度我幾乎可以看得出來你們的態度到底是什麼,可以斷得出來。但問題就是說,你看各個政黨裡面,每一個政黨\n\n00:47.879 --> 01:09.945\n這一條我們今天這個修法時效已經不是所謂的政黨之間的看法的問題了。連各政黨裡面看法都有所不一樣。像我的看法就跟我其他的同事看法會不同。不要說跟國民黨的不同。我相信國民黨裡面也會有不一樣的一個看法。時效本席最擔心的就是什麼?大家現在在講說\n\n01:12.726 --> 01:41.321\n不能讓這些加害者逍遙法外。那次長剛講的一句話我都非常贊同啊。如果說完全要實現正義站在正義的一個觀點來看的話那任何的犯罪都不應該要失效啊。就你跑到你躲的就是失效的概念如果真的是要把這個加害者找出來的話那就是不能讓他躲一時可以讓他躲一時就不能讓他躲一輩子啊。\n\n01:42.520 --> 01:43.042\n但本期最擔心的是什麼?\n\n01:47.443 --> 02:13.646\n立法院也立法院的氛圍整個社會有整個社會的氛圍那整個世界的法學的思潮會有不一樣我很擔心到最後變成在動物園裡面立法就大家噢好開心好開心大家一致把它給通過但是造成很多這個不可彌補的一個狀況可是呢本席要提出來的就是說為什麼會變成這樣其實法務部真的要檢討\n\n02:15.416 --> 02:41.136\n司法院也要檢討因為你們沒有辦法提出一個鏗鏘有力一錘定音讓世衛大眾足以遵循就是比較權威的一個見解現在的氛圍是這樣台灣人心是浮動的你像比如說我最擔心的是什麼呢我最擔心的就是說我舉個例子好了你說現在桃園的劉邦有的命案假設你們法務部跟我說明年跟我說破案了\n\n02:42.776 --> 03:04.566\n或者其他這幾十年前的案子你們跟我說破案啦我會被你們嚇死為什麼發生在幾十年前沒有辦法破案在幾十年後證據一直蔑視時間的流逝證人的死亡反而是幾十年後你們告訴我說真相大白了兇手抓到了這也很可怕\n\n03:05.854 --> 03:08.999\n這也會本席我的看法我倒也會覺得非常可怕那時候我反而會覺得說幾十年後\n\n03:14.653 --> 03:15.233\n則不予審查．則不予審查．\n\n03:37.069 --> 03:58.997\n追溯權時效尤其是針對兒少侵害跟性犯罪的太陽裡面的一個追溯我就看到兩種不同的版本王玉敏王委員是政令八十條之一將對未成年施以妨礙性自主罪不應該受到八十條追溯時效的一個影響也就是說性騷擾的追溯權十年強制性交跟強制尾稅的追溯權時效都是二十年\n\n04:00.097 --> 04:26.673\n這對未成年失語這些行為以後都不再受到時效的一個限制。這當然也是一種對被害者的一種平反感情上的一種平復都可以理解啦。我孟凱委員的是八十三條針對未成年失語妨礙性自主可以停止追溯權時效直到被害人已經成年或者自身被害事實有充分認識以後開始起算。這個也是一種現在有其他的國家的這樣的一個設計都會有。\n\n04:28.174 --> 04:31.607\n但我們要講的就是說其實我看過去從蔡部長在\n\n04:32.904 --> 04:53.591\n社會法治委員會裏面我看到他的答詢是針對兒少性犯罪追溯權時效可否延長當初蔡部長的答覆說追溯權時效是為了法的安定性有講等於沒講這大家都知道的追溯或通緝時候就會停止進行目前沒有針對個別犯罪就停止時效兒少性犯罪部分可以討論但時效問題必須整體考量我到現在還聽不懂這句話的意思啦市長您的看法是什麼\n\n05:00.828 --> 05:25.797\n因為剛才委員有特別提到他就是一個政策又就是一個制度就是對於法安定性的考量那今天如果針對兒少性侵害的案子特別又拉出來那其他的呢是不是其他的也有機會就整個就拉出來那整個可能整個這一個時效追溯權的這個制度會有動搖就是沒有一個標準\n\n05:28.128 --> 05:55.980\n我當然知道這個意思啦所以今天我看不同黨派的委員大家在這個地方討論這個議題我是覺得很有他的一個價值啦但是你說要形成共識我是覺得是非常困難非常困難的一個原因就在於我剛所提到的啊所以我也救教很多的一個在場的一些法律的一個專家所以特別才會提出說你們過去的部長的講法是如此嘛那我本席一直在想的就是說\n\n06:00.800 --> 06:24.355\n從過去這個極權統治的一些國家你說普魯士我剛要到委員會來我特別去查了1851年普魯士王國那個就是皇權統治之下死刑是幾年呢?30年10年以上呢?是20年也就是說哪怕我叫做皇帝\n\n06:25.728 --> 06:43.564\n我這個刑法的設計我基於整個法的安定性的考量我基於你像比如說整個追溯的一個成本就是正義的一個代價到底會有多少當皇帝的人他的刑法的設計都有追溯權時效\n\n06:45.847 --> 06:56.222\n現在你說站在檢察官的立場,或者說站在人民的那種想要的正義的立場來看的話,你國家就是要給我在尖發福。不管他討論到什麼地方去,他躲了N年,你就給我抓出來。\n\n06:58.948 --> 07:24.068\n值得討論我是覺得值得討論但是呢我看這些提案裡面主要是因為兒少性侵往往不容易被揭露或者自身也不清楚自己遭遇到些什麼你像是澳洲他們皇家調查委員會就發現兒童遭到性侵平均要發揮到24年才會被揭露那以目前追溯權時效來看10到20年確實又顯然又不足\n\n07:26.226 --> 07:51.783\n那另外你去看監察院在二零二一年所做的報告當中啊就二零一四到二零二一這八年裡面教師對學生兩千九百四十九件職員工對學生四百七十三件這種通報性平案件呢就高達三千四百二十二件衛福部裡面的通報裡面的性侵害案件裡面悲哀人八千四百零一啊高達一半以上悲哀人都是未成年人\n\n07:53.203 --> 08:14.538\n確實這個部分這一些修法的委員這樣的提案又有他的道理。報告委員我們補充一點好不好。來來來。剛才委員有講到時效是10年到20年。我們在修法兩次以後其實包含了227刑法227那個都已經是20年到30年。就會跨過他的成年。\n\n08:16.722 --> 08:41.871\n所以不是說只有十年,最少都二十年。是,所以我的意思就是為什麼說司法院跟我們法務部這個地方啊,針對這些法律的一個修訂,你們要大膽去提出這個疑慮啊。我相信在司法法制委員會啊,它本來就是可以,只要是涉及到專業的,都是可以討論的地方。你們也不要被民粹給綁死啦。這本來就會有正反。\n\n08:42.952 --> 08:54.296\n本來就會有正反如果說法務部跟司法院你們都不敢去提出比較權威的一個見解或者各國的看法是如此來做一個調和的話那我認為你們就是失職了是\n\n08:56.636 --> 09:20.516\n真的真的我是我是我是我這個是比較反對派啊看起來是保守啊但是我是擔心啊我是招惠也是假官出身啊我相信他一輩子都在摸法律啊這些是討論了幾百年啊討論了幾百年啊就像我提的啊剛剛那個波魯斯王國啊像歐歐洲很多王權國家啊他們哪怕他們是帝王統治啊\n\n09:21.687 --> 09:34.114\n在刑法的設計都有實效的設計為什麼沒辦法國家就是沒有大門大的一個力量否則任何只要涉及到刑事犯罪按照民粹來看的話都不應該有實效不是嗎\n\n09:37.739 --> 10:05.317\n所以我會這樣設計就是涉及到整個追溯的一個成本甚至於會浮現我都很擔心喔這個法律這樣講又會被這個民粹給反撲也不太好就是說我們不要設計一個制度出來以後會造成更多的煙獄造成更多的被害人造成更社會大亂才會有整個法律體系法的安定性的考量到最後大家幾百年來考慮出來就說好吧就基於法的安定性給他一個實效的設計\n\n10:06.998 --> 10:31.727\n讓社會去安定。不是這樣子嗎?所以再考慮一下應該可以再提出你們更權威的看法大膽的提出來啦。我家是政治議題也差而已啦。法律專業議題不用擔心啦好不好。這個法務部跟那個司法院這個要特別跟你們鼓勵啦。不要以為我們這個政黨在這邊攻防就我們不理性。我們是涉及到政治議題大家會比較像動物園。其他不會好不好。那另外啊\n\n10:32.887 --> 10:54.818\n這個針對第二個詐欺犯罪的部分我特別要提醒我特別要提醒我相信大家都知道過去在解決這個車手跟人頭賬戶跟洗錢的部分啊這個大家共同努力還有今天我們去防堵了高達八十九億的詐騙金額這樣的一個成果但是相對於說被詐騙的數量我們其實需要有更多因應詐騙前端的手段\n\n10:55.658 --> 11:04.542\n怎麼說呢我記得小英政府卸任了最後半年裡面行政院裡面也去提出打詐專法這個就是在回應國人對詐騙的一個立法的一個手段可是民眾是不滿意的還是不夠滿意的但今天很多委員提出的加重詐欺339之四的版本裡面就在這個基礎上\n\n11:17.628 --> 11:34.106\n就希望對整個加重詐欺可以更高的一個刑法以便去改善我認為本席也認為這個利益都良善但另外一方面你也必須要去看到行政院你詐欺犯罪的危害防治當中啊你們也有相同條文的罪責跟其他的配套的一個方案喔\n\n11:34.767 --> 12:00.384\n所以說你按照你正願版四十三條這個詐欺獲取財富跟獲得高達一千萬以上的你就增加了三三九之四法定刑一年以上七年以下增加到三年以上啦你也去增加啦並併科三千萬以下的一個罰金那針對冒名公務員境外機房跟三年以上共犯加重期刑二分之一啊你都從原本一年以上到七年以下的你增加到一年六個月到十年六個月以下\n\n12:01.024 --> 12:23.280\n也擴大了去沒收的一個部分甚至於將犯罪利德跟所用之物一併沒收就是說你去提高詐欺犯假釋三分之二的刑期累犯四分之三還有不得假釋的手段為什麼提出這些就是說你們有時間差為什麼要有時間差你這一些啊\n\n12:24.261 --> 12:34.244\n草案你五月九號才提出啦,這些委員的提案是比你還要早啦,所以你們要跟各個辦公室去再去做一個協調看看。你至少我沒有,欸莊瑞我到現在也沒聽到,我不來跟他說,欸我們後面已經提出來了,你們前面這個我後面比你還更完備。\n\n12:44.858 --> 12:53.083\n你們在搞什麼我看了你們的版本後面提出來的不輸給我們啊可是我們立法委員各委員提出的版本是5月9號以前啊\n\n12:54.983 --> 13:00.488\n所以趙偉你今天就拖了你知道嗎?所以這個喔法務部我是覺得這個有點喔你們這樣喔當然最近政局比較亂可是問題是說你們要修法的人你們不能這樣子啊你是要讓各個辦公室知道啊你要到羅志強委員辦公室到歐委員辦公室裡面去講或者到我辦公室來講說我們後面已經提出這些了不輸給你們立法委員的你們的配套更完整了我沒有聽到你們這樣講\n\n13:19.929 --> 13:20.049\n則不允許\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.009,"end":1.07,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們法務部徐政次請次長司法院我們李廳長司法院廳長委員好次長好我想我剛聽了"},{"start":28.791,"end":44.522,"text":"我們幾位委員的一個質詢,看華富的態度我幾乎可以看得出來你們的態度到底是什麼,可以斷得出來。但問題就是說,你看各個政黨裡面,每一個政黨"},{"start":47.879,"end":69.945,"text":"這一條我們今天這個修法時效已經不是所謂的政黨之間的看法的問題了。連各政黨裡面看法都有所不一樣。像我的看法就跟我其他的同事看法會不同。不要說跟國民黨的不同。我相信國民黨裡面也會有不一樣的一個看法。時效本席最擔心的就是什麼?大家現在在講說"},{"start":72.726,"end":101.321,"text":"不能讓這些加害者逍遙法外。那次長剛講的一句話我都非常贊同啊。如果說完全要實現正義站在正義的一個觀點來看的話那任何的犯罪都不應該要失效啊。就你跑到你躲的就是失效的概念如果真的是要把這個加害者找出來的話那就是不能讓他躲一時可以讓他躲一時就不能讓他躲一輩子啊。"},{"start":102.52,"end":103.042,"text":"但本期最擔心的是什麼?"},{"start":107.443,"end":133.646,"text":"立法院也立法院的氛圍整個社會有整個社會的氛圍那整個世界的法學的思潮會有不一樣我很擔心到最後變成在動物園裡面立法就大家噢好開心好開心大家一致把它給通過但是造成很多這個不可彌補的一個狀況可是呢本席要提出來的就是說為什麼會變成這樣其實法務部真的要檢討"},{"start":135.416,"end":161.136,"text":"司法院也要檢討因為你們沒有辦法提出一個鏗鏘有力一錘定音讓世衛大眾足以遵循就是比較權威的一個見解現在的氛圍是這樣台灣人心是浮動的你像比如說我最擔心的是什麼呢我最擔心的就是說我舉個例子好了你說現在桃園的劉邦有的命案假設你們法務部跟我說明年跟我說破案了"},{"start":162.776,"end":184.566,"text":"或者其他這幾十年前的案子你們跟我說破案啦我會被你們嚇死為什麼發生在幾十年前沒有辦法破案在幾十年後證據一直蔑視時間的流逝證人的死亡反而是幾十年後你們告訴我說真相大白了兇手抓到了這也很可怕"},{"start":185.854,"end":188.999,"text":"這也會本席我的看法我倒也會覺得非常可怕那時候我反而會覺得說幾十年後"},{"start":194.653,"end":195.233,"text":"則不予審查 ．則不予審查 ．"},{"start":217.069,"end":238.997,"text":"追溯權時效尤其是針對兒少侵害跟性犯罪的太陽裡面的一個追溯我就看到兩種不同的版本王玉敏王委員是政令八十條之一將對未成年施以妨礙性自主罪不應該受到八十條追溯時效的一個影響也就是說性騷擾的追溯權十年強制性交跟強制尾稅的追溯權時效都是二十年"},{"start":240.097,"end":266.673,"text":"這對未成年失語這些行為以後都不再受到時效的一個限制。這當然也是一種對被害者的一種平反感情上的一種平復都可以理解啦。我孟凱委員的是八十三條針對未成年失語妨礙性自主可以停止追溯權時效直到被害人已經成年或者自身被害事實有充分認識以後開始起算。這個也是一種現在有其他的國家的這樣的一個設計都會有。"},{"start":268.174,"end":271.607,"text":"但我們要講的就是說其實我看過去從蔡部長在"},{"start":272.904,"end":293.591,"text":"社會法治委員會裏面我看到他的答詢是針對兒少性犯罪追溯權時效可否延長當初蔡部長的答覆說追溯權時效是為了法的安定性有講等於沒講這大家都知道的追溯或通緝時候就會停止進行目前沒有針對個別犯罪就停止時效兒少性犯罪部分可以討論但時效問題必須整體考量我到現在還聽不懂這句話的意思啦市長您的看法是什麼"},{"start":300.828,"end":325.797,"text":"因為剛才委員有特別提到他就是一個政策又就是一個制度就是對於法安定性的考量那今天如果針對兒少性侵害的案子特別又拉出來那其他的呢是不是其他的也有機會就整個就拉出來那整個可能整個這一個時效追溯權的這個制度會有動搖就是沒有一個標準"},{"start":328.128,"end":355.98,"text":"我當然知道這個意思啦所以今天我看不同黨派的委員大家在這個地方討論這個議題我是覺得很有他的一個價值啦但是你說要形成共識我是覺得是非常困難非常困難的一個原因就在於我剛所提到的啊所以我也救教很多的一個在場的一些法律的一個專家所以特別才會提出說你們過去的部長的講法是如此嘛那我本席一直在想的就是說"},{"start":360.8,"end":384.355,"text":"從過去這個極權統治的一些國家你說普魯士我剛要到委員會來我特別去查了1851年普魯士王國那個就是皇權統治之下死刑是幾年呢?30年10年以上呢?是20年也就是說哪怕我叫做皇帝"},{"start":385.728,"end":403.564,"text":"我這個刑法的設計我基於整個法的安定性的考量我基於你像比如說整個追溯的一個成本就是正義的一個代價到底會有多少當皇帝的人他的刑法的設計都有追溯權時效"},{"start":405.847,"end":416.222,"text":"現在你說站在檢察官的立場,或者說站在人民的那種想要的正義的立場來看的話,你國家就是要給我在尖發福。不管他討論到什麼地方去,他躲了N年,你就給我抓出來。"},{"start":418.948,"end":444.068,"text":"值得討論我是覺得值得討論但是呢我看這些提案裡面主要是因為兒少性侵往往不容易被揭露或者自身也不清楚自己遭遇到些什麼你像是澳洲他們皇家調查委員會就發現兒童遭到性侵平均要發揮到24年才會被揭露那以目前追溯權時效來看10到20年確實又顯然又不足"},{"start":446.226,"end":471.783,"text":"那另外你去看監察院在二零二一年所做的報告當中啊就二零一四到二零二一這八年裡面教師對學生兩千九百四十九件職員工對學生四百七十三件這種通報性平案件呢就高達三千四百二十二件衛福部裡面的通報裡面的性侵害案件裡面悲哀人八千四百零一啊高達一半以上悲哀人都是未成年人"},{"start":473.203,"end":494.538,"text":"確實這個部分這一些修法的委員這樣的提案又有他的道理。報告委員我們補充一點好不好。來來來。剛才委員有講到時效是10年到20年。我們在修法兩次以後其實包含了227刑法227那個都已經是20年到30年。就會跨過他的成年。"},{"start":496.722,"end":521.871,"text":"所以不是說只有十年,最少都二十年。是,所以我的意思就是為什麼說司法院跟我們法務部這個地方啊,針對這些法律的一個修訂,你們要大膽去提出這個疑慮啊。我相信在司法法制委員會啊,它本來就是可以,只要是涉及到專業的,都是可以討論的地方。你們也不要被民粹給綁死啦。這本來就會有正反。"},{"start":522.952,"end":534.296,"text":"本來就會有正反如果說法務部跟司法院你們都不敢去提出比較權威的一個見解或者各國的看法是如此來做一個調和的話那我認為你們就是失職了是"},{"start":536.636,"end":560.516,"text":"真的真的我是我是我是我這個是比較反對派啊看起來是保守啊但是我是擔心啊我是招惠也是假官出身啊我相信他一輩子都在摸法律啊這些是討論了幾百年啊討論了幾百年啊就像我提的啊剛剛那個波魯斯王國啊像歐歐洲很多王權國家啊他們哪怕他們是帝王統治啊"},{"start":561.687,"end":574.114,"text":"在刑法的設計都有實效的設計為什麼沒辦法國家就是沒有大門大的一個力量否則任何只要涉及到刑事犯罪按照民粹來看的話都不應該有實效不是嗎"},{"start":577.739,"end":605.317,"text":"所以我會這樣設計就是涉及到整個追溯的一個成本甚至於會浮現我都很擔心喔這個法律這樣講又會被這個民粹給反撲也不太好就是說我們不要設計一個制度出來以後會造成更多的煙獄造成更多的被害人造成更社會大亂才會有整個法律體系法的安定性的考量到最後大家幾百年來考慮出來就說好吧就基於法的安定性給他一個實效的設計"},{"start":606.998,"end":631.727,"text":"讓社會去安定。不是這樣子嗎?所以再考慮一下應該可以再提出你們更權威的看法大膽的提出來啦。我家是政治議題也差而已啦。法律專業議題不用擔心啦好不好。這個法務部跟那個司法院這個要特別跟你們鼓勵啦。不要以為我們這個政黨在這邊攻防就我們不理性。我們是涉及到政治議題大家會比較像動物園。其他不會好不好。那另外啊"},{"start":632.887,"end":654.818,"text":"這個針對第二個詐欺犯罪的部分我特別要提醒我特別要提醒我相信大家都知道過去在解決這個車手跟人頭賬戶跟洗錢的部分啊這個大家共同努力還有今天我們去防堵了高達八十九億的詐騙金額這樣的一個成果但是相對於說被詐騙的數量我們其實需要有更多因應詐騙前端的手段"},{"start":655.658,"end":664.542,"text":"怎麼說呢我記得小英政府卸任了最後半年裡面行政院裡面也去提出打詐專法這個就是在回應國人對詐騙的一個立法的一個手段可是民眾是不滿意的還是不夠滿意的但今天很多委員提出的加重詐欺339之四的版本裡面就在這個基礎上"},{"start":677.628,"end":694.106,"text":"就希望對整個加重詐欺可以更高的一個刑法以便去改善我認為本席也認為這個利益都良善但另外一方面你也必須要去看到行政院你詐欺犯罪的危害防治當中啊你們也有相同條文的罪責跟其他的配套的一個方案喔"},{"start":694.767,"end":720.384,"text":"所以說你按照你正願版四十三條這個詐欺獲取財富跟獲得高達一千萬以上的你就增加了三三九之四法定刑一年以上七年以下增加到三年以上啦你也去增加啦並併科三千萬以下的一個罰金那針對冒名公務員境外機房跟三年以上共犯加重期刑二分之一啊你都從原本一年以上到七年以下的你增加到一年六個月到十年六個月以下"},{"start":721.024,"end":743.28,"text":"也擴大了去沒收的一個部分甚至於將犯罪利德跟所用之物一併沒收就是說你去提高詐欺犯假釋三分之二的刑期累犯四分之三還有不得假釋的手段為什麼提出這些就是說你們有時間差為什麼要有時間差你這一些啊"},{"start":744.261,"end":754.244,"text":"草案你五月九號才提出啦,這些委員的提案是比你還要早啦,所以你們要跟各個辦公室去再去做一個協調看看。你至少我沒有,欸莊瑞我到現在也沒聽到,我不來跟他說,欸我們後面已經提出來了,你們前面這個我後面比你還更完備。"},{"start":764.858,"end":773.083,"text":"你們在搞什麼我看了你們的版本後面提出來的不輸給我們啊可是我們立法委員各委員提出的版本是5月9號以前啊"},{"start":774.983,"end":780.488,"text":"所以趙偉你今天就拖了你知道嗎?所以這個喔法務部我是覺得這個有點喔你們這樣喔當然最近政局比較亂可是問題是說你們要修法的人你們不能這樣子啊你是要讓各個辦公室知道啊你要到羅志強委員辦公室到歐委員辦公室裡面去講或者到我辦公室來講說我們後面已經提出這些了不輸給你們立法委員的你們的配套更完整了我沒有聽到你們這樣講"},{"start":799.929,"end":800.049,"text":"則不允許"}]}}}}