{"id":153002,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153002","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3c87dfc74b8d890edfcddaa0058768d2e945ede7791f90b9ee4facc25fc06bfb85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:06:37 - 10:22:59","影片長度":"00:16:22","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員魯明哲等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【第二案（十七）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":982,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":26,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-26"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T10:22:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T10:06:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":341,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時6分）謝謝主席。主席，我們請徐次長。"],["主席：好，麻煩次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：次長，我想今天大家關心的兒少受性侵追訴權時效的議題，我們可以回顧一下，憲法法庭在3月25號公布了一份受理的案件，112年度憲民字第384號，案由是為告訴妨害性自主案件，認臺灣士林地方法院111年度聲判字第37號刑事裁定，及所適用之刑法第八十條及刑法施行法第八條之一規定，有違憲疑義，聲請法規範及裁判憲法審查。該案主要是關於發生在民國94年刑法修正前的妨害性自主追訴權時效的問題，這導致非常多的被害者長大之後就沒有辦法來追訴，造成人生非常大的遺憾，所以心中那種永遠的痛、陰霾一直無法逃離。這種情形有好幾件，比如說高雄體操選手的案件，還有臺中的房思琪等案件，都是成年後因為時效超過而沒有辦法追訴，因為這都是在他們未成年時所遭受的性侵或者猥褻。所以我們看到兒童及青少年在經歷性侵害之後，他往往不容易在短時間內揭露性侵害的內容或者去報案，所以導致無法去追訴；又因為未成年遭受性侵者，他的智識有限，也無法清楚地表達，而且也可能受限於環境或權勢，缺乏支持而求助無門，他不得不沉默以對。","我們看到澳洲皇家調查委員會的全國機構兒童性侵調查發現，倖存者平均花23.9年才第一次揭露童年性侵的經歷，這個時間非常地久，所以等到成年之後，他想要對犯罪者提起告訴，因為追訴期已經過了，而使他沒有辦法提出告訴，也讓犯罪者逃過刑罰的制裁，讓正義無法伸張。因為未成年者身心發展不成熟，如果受到性侵，會嚴重影響他未來身心的發展，所以這種對兒少的性侵事件，真的是天理難容、非常重大的惡行。所以這一次我們兩位委員所提的修法，一個當然是針對兒少性侵的事件排除追訴權時效的適用；另外一個版本是在他未成年以前就停止時效的追訴。我想問次長，到底法務部的意見如何？因為我看你的報告裡面，你講了國外的好幾個立法例，也有排除追訴權時效，也有追訴權時效停止進行，或者延長追訴權時效的期間，或者追訴權時效延後起算，到底法務部的意見，你認為到底採哪一種立法例是最好的？因為你的報告寫得好像這個也不行、那個也不行，但是我們剛才點出有那麼多的問題，羅智強委員剛才也講得非常清楚，所以法務部你要有一個明確的立場，你可不可以提出建議？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，依照我們去年召集專家的刑修小組會議結論，是認為現有的規定、制度，在追訴權方面的規定是沒有什麼問題，因為他的追訴權期間是20到30年，一定會跨過被害人成年的這個門檻，當然不可能說到40歲、50歲這麼遠，但是至少是成年，成年以後，這個被害人理論上在社會上應該有一定的經濟能力、社會地位，他應該可以思索是不是要提出告訴，而且這個又涉及到證據蒐集的問題，20年的案子如果再不提起的話……"],["林委員思銘：次長，法秩序安定的部分，有關追訴權時效制度的設計我們是瞭解，但是對於這種兒少性侵的案件，因為我們看到國外也有排除時效適用的立法例，是不是我們國家的法制面還要如您剛才講的那麼保守？講說這個應該夠啦，二十年、三十年依現行的法律制度夠！但是如果夠，為什麼問題還是層出不窮？兒少被性侵害的案件在長大之後沒有辦法來追訴，就讓這些犯罪者有一個僥倖的心態，即便他做這些犯罪，未來這些人成年之後、過了一段時間如果不敢揭露結果，他們就僥倖、就逃過了法律的追訴。","所以我建議法要隨時則轉，我們不要再用這種保守的心態，要進步的立法，否則這種事件層出不窮，剛才羅智強委員講多少黑數沒有被揭發出來，所以我還是建議法務部，到時候我們在做法案審查的時候明確表達你的態度，因為現在講說現行法已經夠了、沒有修正的必要，但實際上真的是這樣嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，我們沒有反對的意思，我只是就法制面來看，檢討我們現有制度是不是足夠，我們非常尊重大會委員的……"],["林委員思銘：次長，所以我覺得有點保守啦，我還是希望您提出懇切的建議，到底適用排除追訴權時效比較OK、比較不會有問題，還是我們在他成年以後再來進行時效的進行、之前都停止，我想這些都是你可以給我們一個很中肯的建議，因為你後面又提到，這個版本、哪一個版本要等他心智成熟等等，這是一個不確定的法律概念，你沒有提出這樣一個見解，到底要如何修正這個法條能夠達到社會大眾的期待、能夠保障我們這些未成年的、受性侵的被害者？我想法務部應該有一個更積極的立法建議，我是這樣建議啦，我希望到時在逐條審查的時候能夠看到你們有更積極、明確的態度來對修法做出一個很明確的建議。","我再請問次長第二個問題，在這次立法院職權行使法的修正當中，我們大家一直在討論，是不是可以讓這些受調查、聽證的，不管是公務人員、團體、法人或者利害關係的人民，可以請律師到場？我想問次長，依我們現在的訴訟制度，可以請律師到場的情況有哪些？"],["徐次長錫祥：被告、犯罪嫌疑人這些都可以，經過檢察官同意的話，因為基於偵查的指揮，應該也不會排除……"],["林委員思銘：次長，我告訴你……"],["徐次長錫祥：但是要經過檢察官同意。"],["林委員思銘：是！所以刑事訴訟的犯罪嫌疑人、被告在接受偵訊或者在訊問的時候，他可以請被辯護人到場，這是他的權利。"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["林委員思銘：民事訴訟或者行政訴訟就不一定要請律師，他要不要請律師由當事人自己考量嘛。"],["徐次長錫祥：如果一個法律制定以後，有涉及到人民的自由權或者是財產權的侵害，他可能會因為違反規定……比較沒有爭議是，尊重當事人的意見會比較好。"],["林委員思銘：對，所以次長，其實我要跟你講的就是，我們這次立法院職權行使法的修訂內容為，這些受聽證人到場來接受聽證的時候，經過主席同意，於必要時他得請律師到場。但是我們看到民進黨委員講說，這條你們違憲啦！你怎麼可以說一定要經過主席同意，必要時才可以請律師？他的看法似乎認為我們就是把他當作刑事被告！","其實次長，我剛才已經跟您就教過，我們在什麼情況之下可以請律師？就是在刑事訴訟的程序裡面，你被當作犯罪嫌疑人、被當作被告，所以你有3項權利，第一個，可以保持緘默、不違背自己的意思而為陳述；第二個，可以申請調查有利於自己的證據；第三個，可以選任辯護人！所以我們法律明定可以選任辯護人、可以請律師是在這種情況之下。至於民事訴訟跟行政訴訟，你可以委任律師到庭來帶領你出庭，所以只有限於這幾種情況！如果是證人，證人可以請律師嗎？可以嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：證人有時候，譬如在檢察官同意之下，因為偵查指揮是檢察官的權力。"],["林委員思銘：所以證人依照現行法，因為證人是到庭來聽他講的，不可能由律師幫他代答，所以一定是證人依他自己的親自見聞來法庭接受訊問，證人不可能請律師，這不是他的權利嘛！你同不同意？"],["徐次長錫祥：我知道、我知道！"],["林委員思銘：就是證人，對嘛？是不是？"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["林委員思銘：所以一定要如你剛才講的，如果證人一定要請律師到場來協助他，可能要經過檢察官或者法官的同意。"],["徐次長錫祥：因為有些證人現在的身分是證人，但是身分轉換在我們訴訟法上是可能發生的。"],["林委員思銘：可能發生……"],["徐次長錫祥：證人到庭以前可能會擔心。"],["林委員思銘：我知道，所以證人身分轉換的時候，檢察官就要告訴他那3項權利嘛，要告訴他！"],["徐次長錫祥：對，我們要宣讀權利。"],["林委員思銘：甚至依照現行實務的作法，有些檢察官會等1個小時讓他去請律師，就暫時停止，對不對？"],["徐次長錫祥：對，沒有錯，這個法律有規定。"],["林委員思銘：對嘛，因為這是法律的強制規定，讓他可以請律師。但是我現在一直強調，我們在國會依照職權行使法行使調查聽證權的時候，不是一定要讓他請律師到場，你是來接受聽證、來證言的嘛，不是把你當犯罪嫌疑人、當被告，這是一個不一樣的體制嘛！"],["徐次長錫祥：是，因為剛才我特別有提到，如果又涉及到自由權或者是財產權問題的話，經過多方的討論、學者專家意見，還有法制程序上如果能夠討論的話，將來在執行上可能會比較沒有爭執，我只是這樣子的意見。"],["林委員思銘：我只跟你討論證人，證人是沒有請律師的權利啦，這點你同意吧？"],["徐次長錫祥：對，在設計上沒有這樣的設計。"],["林委員思銘：是啊，就沒有嘛！","最後，請主席再給我1分鐘，針對這一次大法官做出解釋，認為公然侮辱罪是合憲，但是訂出了非常嚴格的標準，次長先請回，這個可能請司法院廳長。關於訂出的標準非常嚴格，未來公然侮辱罪必須符合3項審查標準，必須當場侮辱、必須基於妨害公務的目的、必須影響執行公務。","所以未來我們的警察在執行公務的時候，如果只是民眾單純的口頭抱怨、或者抽象的辱罵、或僅針對公務員執行的職務本身，沒有針對特定的個人而且沒有影響公務的進行，就不會被認定是公然侮辱公務。比如說廣泛地指稱警察開紅單是政府養的狗，這會不會構成公然侮辱罪、公然侮辱公務員罪？"],["李廳長釱任：這個部分還是要依照大法官解釋，在第43段裡面有特別提到「足以影響公務員執行公務」，它有講這個情形下才會構成犯罪，例如說單純的揶揄、口頭嘲諷的話，可能未必會構成對公務員公然侮辱罪。"],["林委員思銘：我想這樣放寬言論自由當然是大法官的一個選擇，但是這樣放寬言論自由如何來保障我們的執法尊嚴、如何來維護我們的正義？所以大法官這樣的解釋，其實在我們現在實務上來看，這種解釋根本沒有考量我們執法人員的尊嚴！現在對執法人員來講，大家看到這個解釋都傻眼。"],["李廳長釱任：就執法人員來講，如果個人的名譽受到損害的時候，他還是可以依第三百零九條公然侮辱罪對於個人法益侵害的部分提起告訴。那在大法官解釋裡面也有思考到，對於公務員不是所謂國家法益侵害的時候，而是對於個人法益侵害的這部分是不是要改成公訴罪，它在第50段裡面曾經有提出一些建議跟說明。"],["林委員思銘：次長，這份判決宣告侮辱職務罪是違憲的，這很明顯就是為楊蕙如在解套嘛。所以我想，如果大法官這樣子完全向執政黨來靠攏，任由相關的公務機關被人家謾罵，在網路上散布不實訊息來批判的話，這樣一點尊嚴都沒有啊！未來這個國家的公務系統如何來維護其尊嚴。所以我覺得大法官，比如說我可不可以講大法官是執政黨養的狗，我可不可以講，我有沒有構成侮辱職務罪？"],["李廳長釱任：這個我……"],["林委員思銘：所以我說這樣的解釋，問題點太多了啦！大法官真的是不食人間煙火，完全往執政黨靠攏，非常的不恰當，我做這種結論。謝謝。"],["李廳長釱任：謝謝。"],["主席：何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","接下來請翁曉玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-26","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","王育敏","沈發惠","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","翁曉玲","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135102_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委\n員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案；二、繼續併案審查 (一)\n委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)委員徐巧芯\n等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(三)委員\n馬文君等17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員黃健豪\n等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(八)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之\n四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(十一)委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三\n及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四\n條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十\n九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第\n三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條之四條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135102_00008"}},"transcript":{"id":"153002","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153002","tool":"pyannote","id":"153002-pyannote"},"job_id":"vmGCSj37mNa3rTVj","queued_at":"2024-05-30 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16:59:25","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-05-30 17:01:58","msg":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153002 already downloaded"},{"time":"2024-05-30 17:01:58","msg":"running whisperx with  --language zh --model large-v3 --initial_prompt '會議名稱：立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員魯明哲等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【第二案（十七）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）\n發言委員：林思銘'"},{"time":"2024-05-30 17:02:25","msg":"merging result"},{"time":"2024-05-30 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242.774, \"text\": \"那我想問這個次長到底法務部的意見因為我看你的報告裡面當然你講了好多的國外的好幾個一個立法例就是也有排除追溯權時效也有追溯權時效停止進行或者延長追溯權時效的期間或者追溯權時效延後起算\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 220.356, \"end\": 221.397, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 221.397, \"end\": 221.617, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 221.617, \"end\": 222.478, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 222.478, \"end\": 223.619, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 223.619, \"end\": 223.859, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 223.859, \"end\": 225.02, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 225.02, \"end\": 225.3, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 225.3, \"end\": 225.48, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 225.48, \"end\": 225.72, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 225.72, \"end\": 226.181, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"見\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", 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這個因為是法律的一個強制規定讓他可以請律師嘛但是我現在一直強調說說我們在國會行使醫藥職權刑法行使調查聽證權的時候不是一定要讓他這個請律師到場嘛你是來聽證接受聽證的嘛來來證言的嘛不是叫你來當不是把你當犯罪嫌疑人當被告這是不一樣的一個訴訟的一個的一個這個體制嘛\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 693.645, \"end\": 694.005, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 694.005, \"end\": 694.225, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 694.225, \"end\": 694.405, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 694.405, \"end\": 694.565, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"律\", \"start\": 694.565, \"end\": 694.686, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 694.686, \"end\": 694.786, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 694.786, \"end\": 695.206, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"強\"}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 695.206, \"end\": 695.606, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 695.606, \"end\": 695.866, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 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\"務\"}, {\"word\": \"系\", \"start\": 950.347, \"end\": 950.727, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 950.727, \"end\": 951.167, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 951.167, \"end\": 951.447, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"何\", \"start\": 951.447, \"end\": 951.467, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"﹚\"}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 952.888, \"end\": 953.008, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 953.008, \"end\": 953.028, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"銘\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,355 --> 00:00:10,823\n謝謝主席主席我們請次長麻煩次長\n\n2\n00:00:15,782 --> 00:00:45,285\n委員好,謝謝次長。我想今天大家關心的這個兒少追溯權受性侵追溯權失效的議題我想我們回顧一下這個憲法法庭在3月25號公布了一份受理的案件112年度憲民制第384號他的案由是未告出妨害性自主案件認為台灣士林地方法院111年度審判制第37號刑事裁定\n\n3\n00:00:46,145 --> 00:01:07,741\n他所適用的刑法八十條及刑法司刑法第八條之一的規定有違憲疑議,申請裁判就憲法法庭來做一個審查。該案主要是關於發生在民國九十四年刑法修正前的妨害限制組追溯權時效的問題。\n\n4\n00:01:09,022 --> 00:01:09,623\n則不予審查\n\n5\n00:01:27,623 --> 00:01:51,782\n所以這種情形有好幾件比如說高雄體操選手的案件還有台中的房思琦等案件都是因為成年因為時效超過而沒有辦法追溯因為這個都是在他們未成年的時候所遭受的性侵或者猥褻\n\n6\n00:01:53,183 --> 00:02:07,713\n所以我們看到兒童及青少年在經歷性侵害之後他往往不容易在短時間內來揭露他性侵害的這個內容或者去報案所以導致無法去追溯\n\n7\n00:02:08,573 --> 00:02:30,768\n那麼又因為他這個未成年遭受性侵者他的自視有限也無法清楚的表達而且也可能受限於環境或權勢缺乏支持而求助無門他不得不沉默以對我們看到澳洲皇家調查委員會的全國機構兒童性侵調查發現\n\n8\n00:02:33,085 --> 00:02:54,327\n獲判者平均花23.9年才第一次揭露童年性侵的經歷所以這個時間非常的久所以等到成年之後他想要對他的這個犯罪者提起告訴那因為追訴前已經過了而使他這個沒有辦法\n\n9\n00:02:56,068 --> 00:03:12,533\n來提出告訴也讓犯罪者逃過刑法的制裁讓正義無法伸張所以我們為成年者身心發展因為不成熟如果受到性侵會嚴重影響他未來身心的一個發展\n\n10\n00:03:13,604 --> 00:03:39,105\n所以這種對兒少的性侵的事件真的是我們天理難容非常重大的一個惡行所以我們這一次我們兩位委員的修法一個當然是針對說這個是不是就排除這種兒少性侵的事件排除我們追溯前時效的適用那另外一個版本是說就是我們在他未成年以前就停止時效的一個追溯\n\n11\n00:03:40,356 --> 00:04:02,774\n那我想問這個次長到底法務部的意見因為我看你的報告裡面當然你講了好多的國外的好幾個一個立法例就是也有排除追溯權時效也有追溯權時效停止進行或者延長追溯權時效的期間或者追溯權時效延後起算\n\n12\n00:04:04,127 --> 00:04:22,889\n到底法務部的意見你認為到底採哪一種立法例是最好的因為你的報告都寫了好像這個也不行那個也不行但是我們剛才點出有那麼多的一個問題我看羅志強委員剛才也講得非常清楚所以到底法務部你要有一個明確的立場\n\n13\n00:04:25,060 --> 00:04:50,892\n提出建議一下一招我們去年召集專家的這個行修小組會議的結論是認為現有的規定制度應該是在追溯權方面的規定是沒有什麼問題那因為他的追溯權期間是二十到三十一定會跨過被害人成年的這個門檻\n\n14\n00:04:52,453 --> 00:05:10,191\n當然不可能說到40歲50歲這麼遠但是至少是成年成年以後這個被害人他理論上他應該在社會上有一定的這個經濟能力社會地位他應該可以思索去是不是提出告訴而且這個又涉及到證據收集的問題\n\n15\n00:05:11,232 --> 00:05:32,926\n二十年的案子如果再不提起的話法制序安定的部分就是說追溯權時效這個設計我們是了解了但是對於這種兒少性侵的案件因為我們看到國外立法立案他也有排除這個時效的這個適用的這樣的一個立法立案是不是我們國家的法制面還要如您剛才講的那麼保守\n\n16\n00:05:34,847 --> 00:06:01,881\n說這個應該夠啦二十年三十年一線型的法律的制度夠但是如果夠為什麼還是問題層出不窮不窮正兒少被性侵害的案件長大之後沒有辦法來追溯讓這些犯罪者就有一個僥倖的一個心態即便我做這些犯罪那未來這些人成年之後過了一段時間如果他不敢揭露\n\n17\n00:06:04,486 --> 00:06:20,088\n於是他們就假信他們就追過了就逃過了法律的追溯所以我是建議法要隨時者轉我們不要在這種保守的心態要進步的立法否則這種事件層出不窮\n\n18\n00:06:21,408 --> 00:06:24,650\n則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．\n\n19\n00:06:45,279 --> 00:07:13,269\n報告委員我們沒有反對的意思我們只是就法制面來看檢討我們現有制度是不是足夠那我們非常的尊重我們大會的委員的意見所以市長我覺得有點保守啦所以說我還是希望您提出懇切的一個建議到底是用這個排除追溯權時效比較OK比較不會有問題還是說我們在他成年以後再來進行時效的一個進行之前都停止\n\n20\n00:07:15,390 --> 00:07:37,749\n這是一個不確定的法律概念你沒有提出這樣的一個見解那到底要如何來讓這個法條修正能夠達到社會大眾的一個期待你能夠保障我們這些未成年的受性侵的這些被害者\n\n21\n00:07:38,650 --> 00:07:38,990\n第二個問題我在請問次長\n\n22\n00:07:57,907 --> 00:08:24,388\n我想對於我們這次在立法院職權行使法的修正當中我們大家一直在討論就是說這個我們是不是可以讓這些受調查聽證的這些不管是公務人員或者是我們的團體法人或者利害關係的人民可以請律師到場那我想問次長醫生在我們的訴訟制度可以請律師到場的情況是有哪些\n\n23\n00:08:25,926 --> 00:08:55,009\n我想那個被告犯罪嫌疑人這些都可以那經過檢察官同意的話因為基於偵查的指揮應該也不會派出但是要經過檢察官同意所以我們在刑事訴訟的犯罪嫌疑人或者被告他是在接受偵訊或者在詢問的時候他可以請辯護人到場嘛這是他的權利嘛那我們的民事訴訟或者行政訴訟就不是一定要請律師嘛\n\n24\n00:08:56,090 --> 00:09:06,879\n他有沒有請律師當時能自己考量嗎?因為如果說一個法律制定以後他有涉及到人民的自由權或者是他的財產權的侵害他可能會因為違反規定\n\n25\n00:09:10,114 --> 00:09:36,236\n較無爭議是尊重當事人的意見會比較好。所以市長其實我要跟你講的就是說因為我們這一次的立法委員職權行使法我們修訂就是說這些受聽證人他到場來接受聽證的時候經過主席同意與必要時他得請律師到場但是我們看到民進黨委員講說這一條你們這違憲啊你怎麼可以說一定要經過主席同意\n\n26\n00:09:37,198 --> 00:09:43,010\n必要時才可以請律師。他的看法似乎認為說我們就是把他當作刑事被告啊。\n\n27\n00:09:44,284 --> 00:10:07,891\n其實職長我剛已經跟你就教過其實我們在什麼情況之下可以請律師那就是說你在刑事訴訟的程序裡面你是被當作犯罪嫌疑人被當作被告所以你有三項權利嘛第一個就是說你可以保持緘默不違背自己的意識而為陳述第二個你可以申請調查有利於自己的證據第三個你可以選任辯護人嘛\n\n28\n00:10:09,131 --> 00:10:29,048\n所以我們法律明定說在可以選任辯護人可以請律師的情況是在這種情況之下至於民事訴訟跟行政訴訟你可以委任律師到庭來帶領你去出庭嘛所以只有限於這幾種情況嘛如果是證人證人可以請律師嗎可以嗎\n\n29\n00:10:30,029 --> 00:10:46,222\n證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候\n\n30\n00:10:55,758 --> 00:11:16,843\n這不是他的權利嘛你懂不同意我知道我知道對嘛對是不是所以一定要該如你剛才講的如果證人一定要請律師到場來協助他也可能要經過檢察官或者法官的一個同意因為有些證人他他現在身份是證人但是身份轉換在我們訴訟法上是可能發生的可能發生你當時在證人到庭以前他可能會擔心\n\n31\n00:11:17,483 --> 00:11:17,743\n對沒錯沒錯這規定法\n\n32\n00:11:33,645 --> 00:11:59,255\n對嘛這個因為是法律的一個強制規定讓他可以請律師嘛但是我現在一直強調說說我們在國會行使醫藥職權刑法行使調查聽證權的時候不是一定要讓他這個請律師到場嘛你是來聽證接受聽證的嘛來來證言的嘛不是叫你來當不是把你當犯罪嫌疑人當被告這是不一樣的一個訴訟的一個的一個這個體制嘛\n\n33\n00:12:03,616 --> 00:12:30,603\n因為剛才我特別有提到說如果又涉及到自由權的問題或者是財產權的問題的話經過多方的討論然後學者專家意見還有法治的程序上如果能夠討論的話將來在執行上可能會比較沒有爭執啦我只是這樣子的意見所以我想這個這部分就證人我只跟你討論證人啦證人是沒有請律師的權利啦這點你同意吧\n\n34\n00:12:31,923 --> 00:12:32,284\n議員林思銘\n\n35\n00:12:56,769 --> 00:13:10,387\n指出的標準非常嚴格,未來公然侮辱罪必須符合三項的審查標準。必須當場侮辱,必須基於妨害公務的目的,必須影響執行公務。\n\n36\n00:13:11,428 --> 00:13:27,988\n所以未來我們的警察在執行公務的時候如果說只是單純民眾單純的口頭抱怨或者抽象的辱罵或僅針對公務員執行的職務本身沒有針對特定的個人\n\n37\n00:13:28,949 --> 00:13:53,306\n而且沒有影響公務的進行就不會被認定說是公然侮辱我們的公務所以警察開紅單如果比如說廣泛的指稱警察開紅單是政府養的狗這會不會構成公然侮辱罪公然侮辱我們的公務人員罪\n\n38\n00:13:54,558 --> 00:14:21,348\n這部分是要依照大法官的解釋在第43段裡面有特別提到足以影響公務員執行公務他有講這個情形要實施才會構成犯罪那例如說單純的揶揄啦或者嘲諷的話那可能未必會構成公難無路那個對公務員公難無路的罪行是我想這樣放寬言論自由當然是大法官的一個選擇但是當然這樣放寬言論自由\n\n39\n00:14:22,208 --> 00:14:39,029\n如何來保障我們的執法尊嚴如何來維護我們的正義所以大法官這樣的解釋其實在我們現在很實務上來看這種解釋根本沒有去考量我們執法人員他的一個尊嚴\n\n40\n00:14:40,990 --> 00:14:55,555\n所以現在對執法人員來講大家看到這個解釋都傻眼了就執法人員來講他如果他個人的名義受到或是受到損害的時候他還是有三百零九條的公然侮辱罪的對個人身份法個人法益的侵害的部分他可以提起告訴的\n\n41\n00:14:56,515 --> 00:15:22,610\n在大法官的解釋裡面也有思考到說對於公務員的不是國家法律的部分侵害的時候對個人法律的侵害這部分是不是要改成公訴罪他在第五十段裡面曾經有提出這個部分的一些建議跟說明市長其實這份判決又認為說宣告五物植物罪是違憲的\n\n42\n00:15:24,896 --> 00:15:51,467\n這明顯就是為楊蕙如在解套嘛所以我想如果大法官是這樣子完全向執政黨來靠攏的話而不對於我們的這個相關的不管我們的公務機關這些被人家謾罵在網路上放布不實訊息來這樣批判的話一點尊嚴都沒有啊這國家未來這個國家的公務系統啊如何來\n\n43\n00:15:52,888 --> 00:15:53,028\n﹚林思銘\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9355\t10823\t謝謝主席主席我們請次長麻煩次長\n15782\t45285\t委員好,謝謝次長。我想今天大家關心的這個兒少追溯權受性侵追溯權失效的議題我想我們回顧一下這個憲法法庭在3月25號公布了一份受理的案件112年度憲民制第384號他的案由是未告出妨害性自主案件認為台灣士林地方法院111年度審判制第37號刑事裁定\n46145\t67741\t他所適用的刑法八十條及刑法司刑法第八條之一的規定有違憲疑議,申請裁判就憲法法庭來做一個審查。該案主要是關於發生在民國九十四年刑法修正前的妨害限制組追溯權時效的問題。\n69022\t69623\t則不予審查\n87623\t111782\t所以這種情形有好幾件比如說高雄體操選手的案件還有台中的房思琦等案件都是因為成年因為時效超過而沒有辦法追溯因為這個都是在他們未成年的時候所遭受的性侵或者猥褻\n113183\t127713\t所以我們看到兒童及青少年在經歷性侵害之後他往往不容易在短時間內來揭露他性侵害的這個內容或者去報案所以導致無法去追溯\n128573\t150768\t那麼又因為他這個未成年遭受性侵者他的自視有限也無法清楚的表達而且也可能受限於環境或權勢缺乏支持而求助無門他不得不沉默以對我們看到澳洲皇家調查委員會的全國機構兒童性侵調查發現\n153085\t174327\t獲判者平均花23.9年才第一次揭露童年性侵的經歷所以這個時間非常的久所以等到成年之後他想要對他的這個犯罪者提起告訴那因為追訴前已經過了而使他這個沒有辦法\n176068\t192533\t來提出告訴也讓犯罪者逃過刑法的制裁讓正義無法伸張所以我們為成年者身心發展因為不成熟如果受到性侵會嚴重影響他未來身心的一個發展\n193604\t219105\t所以這種對兒少的性侵的事件真的是我們天理難容非常重大的一個惡行所以我們這一次我們兩位委員的修法一個當然是針對說這個是不是就排除這種兒少性侵的事件排除我們追溯前時效的適用那另外一個版本是說就是我們在他未成年以前就停止時效的一個追溯\n220356\t242774\t那我想問這個次長到底法務部的意見因為我看你的報告裡面當然你講了好多的國外的好幾個一個立法例就是也有排除追溯權時效也有追溯權時效停止進行或者延長追溯權時效的期間或者追溯權時效延後起算\n244127\t262889\t到底法務部的意見你認為到底採哪一種立法例是最好的因為你的報告都寫了好像這個也不行那個也不行但是我們剛才點出有那麼多的一個問題我看羅志強委員剛才也講得非常清楚所以到底法務部你要有一個明確的立場\n265060\t290892\t提出建議一下一招我們去年召集專家的這個行修小組會議的結論是認為現有的規定制度應該是在追溯權方面的規定是沒有什麼問題那因為他的追溯權期間是二十到三十一定會跨過被害人成年的這個門檻\n292453\t310191\t當然不可能說到40歲50歲這麼遠但是至少是成年成年以後這個被害人他理論上他應該在社會上有一定的這個經濟能力社會地位他應該可以思索去是不是提出告訴而且這個又涉及到證據收集的問題\n311232\t332926\t二十年的案子如果再不提起的話法制序安定的部分就是說追溯權時效這個設計我們是了解了但是對於這種兒少性侵的案件因為我們看到國外立法立案他也有排除這個時效的這個適用的這樣的一個立法立案是不是我們國家的法制面還要如您剛才講的那麼保守\n334847\t361881\t說這個應該夠啦二十年三十年一線型的法律的制度夠但是如果夠為什麼還是問題層出不窮不窮正兒少被性侵害的案件長大之後沒有辦法來追溯讓這些犯罪者就有一個僥倖的一個心態即便我做這些犯罪那未來這些人成年之後過了一段時間如果他不敢揭露\n364486\t380088\t於是他們就假信他們就追過了就逃過了法律的追溯所以我是建議法要隨時者轉我們不要在這種保守的心態要進步的立法否則這種事件層出不窮\n381408\t384650\t則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．\n405279\t433269\t報告委員我們沒有反對的意思我們只是就法制面來看檢討我們現有制度是不是足夠那我們非常的尊重我們大會的委員的意見所以市長我覺得有點保守啦所以說我還是希望您提出懇切的一個建議到底是用這個排除追溯權時效比較OK比較不會有問題還是說我們在他成年以後再來進行時效的一個進行之前都停止\n435390\t457749\t這是一個不確定的法律概念你沒有提出這樣的一個見解那到底要如何來讓這個法條修正能夠達到社會大眾的一個期待你能夠保障我們這些未成年的受性侵的這些被害者\n458650\t458990\t第二個問題我在請問次長\n477907\t504388\t我想對於我們這次在立法院職權行使法的修正當中我們大家一直在討論就是說這個我們是不是可以讓這些受調查聽證的這些不管是公務人員或者是我們的團體法人或者利害關係的人民可以請律師到場那我想問次長醫生在我們的訴訟制度可以請律師到場的情況是有哪些\n505926\t535009\t我想那個被告犯罪嫌疑人這些都可以那經過檢察官同意的話因為基於偵查的指揮應該也不會派出但是要經過檢察官同意所以我們在刑事訴訟的犯罪嫌疑人或者被告他是在接受偵訊或者在詢問的時候他可以請辯護人到場嘛這是他的權利嘛那我們的民事訴訟或者行政訴訟就不是一定要請律師嘛\n536090\t546879\t他有沒有請律師當時能自己考量嗎?因為如果說一個法律制定以後他有涉及到人民的自由權或者是他的財產權的侵害他可能會因為違反規定\n550114\t576236\t較無爭議是尊重當事人的意見會比較好。所以市長其實我要跟你講的就是說因為我們這一次的立法委員職權行使法我們修訂就是說這些受聽證人他到場來接受聽證的時候經過主席同意與必要時他得請律師到場但是我們看到民進黨委員講說這一條你們這違憲啊你怎麼可以說一定要經過主席同意\n577198\t583010\t必要時才可以請律師。他的看法似乎認為說我們就是把他當作刑事被告啊。\n584284\t607891\t其實職長我剛已經跟你就教過其實我們在什麼情況之下可以請律師那就是說你在刑事訴訟的程序裡面你是被當作犯罪嫌疑人被當作被告所以你有三項權利嘛第一個就是說你可以保持緘默不違背自己的意識而為陳述第二個你可以申請調查有利於自己的證據第三個你可以選任辯護人嘛\n609131\t629048\t所以我們法律明定說在可以選任辯護人可以請律師的情況是在這種情況之下至於民事訴訟跟行政訴訟你可以委任律師到庭來帶領你去出庭嘛所以只有限於這幾種情況嘛如果是證人證人可以請律師嗎可以嗎\n630029\t646222\t證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候\n655758\t676843\t這不是他的權利嘛你懂不同意我知道我知道對嘛對是不是所以一定要該如你剛才講的如果證人一定要請律師到場來協助他也可能要經過檢察官或者法官的一個同意因為有些證人他他現在身份是證人但是身份轉換在我們訴訟法上是可能發生的可能發生你當時在證人到庭以前他可能會擔心\n677483\t677743\t對沒錯沒錯這規定法\n693645\t719255\t對嘛 這個因為是法律的一個強制規定讓他可以請律師嘛但是我現在一直強調說說我們在國會行使醫藥職權刑法行使調查聽證權的時候不是一定要讓他這個請律師到場嘛你是來聽證接受聽證的嘛來來證言的嘛不是叫你來當不是把你當犯罪嫌疑人當被告這是不一樣的一個訴訟的一個的一個這個體制嘛\n723616\t750603\t因為剛才我特別有提到說如果又涉及到自由權的問題或者是財產權的問題的話經過多方的討論然後學者專家意見還有法治的程序上如果能夠討論的話將來在執行上可能會比較沒有爭執啦我只是這樣子的意見所以我想這個這部分就證人我只跟你討論證人啦證人是沒有請律師的權利啦這點你同意吧\n751923\t752284\t議員林思銘\n776769\t790387\t指出的標準非常嚴格,未來公然侮辱罪必須符合三項的審查標準。必須當場侮辱,必須基於妨害公務的目的,必須影響執行公務。\n791428\t807988\t所以未來我們的警察在執行公務的時候如果說只是單純民眾單純的口頭抱怨或者抽象的辱罵或僅針對公務員執行的職務本身沒有針對特定的個人\n808949\t833306\t而且沒有影響公務的進行就不會被認定說是公然侮辱我們的公務所以警察開紅單如果比如說廣泛的指稱警察開紅單是政府養的狗這會不會構成公然侮辱罪公然侮辱我們的公務人員罪\n834558\t861348\t這部分是要依照大法官的解釋在第43段裡面有特別提到足以影響公務員執行公務他有講這個情形要實施才會構成犯罪那例如說單純的揶揄啦或者嘲諷的話那可能未必會構成公難無路那個對公務員公難無路的罪行是我想這樣放寬言論自由當然是大法官的一個選擇但是當然這樣放寬言論自由\n862208\t879029\t如何來保障我們的執法尊嚴如何來維護我們的正義所以大法官這樣的解釋其實在我們現在很實務上來看這種解釋根本沒有去考量我們執法人員他的一個尊嚴\n880990\t895555\t所以現在對執法人員來講大家看到這個解釋都傻眼了就執法人員來講他如果他個人的名義受到或是受到損害的時候他還是有三百零九條的公然侮辱罪的對個人身份法個人法益的侵害的部分他可以提起告訴的\n896515\t922610\t在大法官的解釋裡面也有思考到說對於公務員的不是國家法律的部分侵害的時候對個人法律的侵害這部分是不是要改成公訴罪他在第五十段裡面曾經有提出這個部分的一些建議跟說明市長其實這份判決又認為說宣告五物植物罪是違憲的\n924896\t951467\t這明顯就是為楊蕙如在解套嘛所以我想如果大法官是這樣子完全向執政黨來靠攏的話而不對於我們的這個相關的不管我們的公務機關這些被人家謾罵在網路上放布不實訊息來這樣批判的話一點尊嚴都沒有啊這國家未來這個國家的公務系統啊如何來\n952888\t953028\t﹚林思銘\n","txt":"謝謝主席主席我們請次長麻煩次長\n委員好,謝謝次長。我想今天大家關心的這個兒少追溯權受性侵追溯權失效的議題我想我們回顧一下這個憲法法庭在3月25號公布了一份受理的案件112年度憲民制第384號他的案由是未告出妨害性自主案件認為台灣士林地方法院111年度審判制第37號刑事裁定\n他所適用的刑法八十條及刑法司刑法第八條之一的規定有違憲疑議,申請裁判就憲法法庭來做一個審查。該案主要是關於發生在民國九十四年刑法修正前的妨害限制組追溯權時效的問題。\n則不予審查\n所以這種情形有好幾件比如說高雄體操選手的案件還有台中的房思琦等案件都是因為成年因為時效超過而沒有辦法追溯因為這個都是在他們未成年的時候所遭受的性侵或者猥褻\n所以我們看到兒童及青少年在經歷性侵害之後他往往不容易在短時間內來揭露他性侵害的這個內容或者去報案所以導致無法去追溯\n那麼又因為他這個未成年遭受性侵者他的自視有限也無法清楚的表達而且也可能受限於環境或權勢缺乏支持而求助無門他不得不沉默以對我們看到澳洲皇家調查委員會的全國機構兒童性侵調查發現\n獲判者平均花23.9年才第一次揭露童年性侵的經歷所以這個時間非常的久所以等到成年之後他想要對他的這個犯罪者提起告訴那因為追訴前已經過了而使他這個沒有辦法\n來提出告訴也讓犯罪者逃過刑法的制裁讓正義無法伸張所以我們為成年者身心發展因為不成熟如果受到性侵會嚴重影響他未來身心的一個發展\n所以這種對兒少的性侵的事件真的是我們天理難容非常重大的一個惡行所以我們這一次我們兩位委員的修法一個當然是針對說這個是不是就排除這種兒少性侵的事件排除我們追溯前時效的適用那另外一個版本是說就是我們在他未成年以前就停止時效的一個追溯\n那我想問這個次長到底法務部的意見因為我看你的報告裡面當然你講了好多的國外的好幾個一個立法例就是也有排除追溯權時效也有追溯權時效停止進行或者延長追溯權時效的期間或者追溯權時效延後起算\n到底法務部的意見你認為到底採哪一種立法例是最好的因為你的報告都寫了好像這個也不行那個也不行但是我們剛才點出有那麼多的一個問題我看羅志強委員剛才也講得非常清楚所以到底法務部你要有一個明確的立場\n提出建議一下一招我們去年召集專家的這個行修小組會議的結論是認為現有的規定制度應該是在追溯權方面的規定是沒有什麼問題那因為他的追溯權期間是二十到三十一定會跨過被害人成年的這個門檻\n當然不可能說到40歲50歲這麼遠但是至少是成年成年以後這個被害人他理論上他應該在社會上有一定的這個經濟能力社會地位他應該可以思索去是不是提出告訴而且這個又涉及到證據收集的問題\n二十年的案子如果再不提起的話法制序安定的部分就是說追溯權時效這個設計我們是了解了但是對於這種兒少性侵的案件因為我們看到國外立法立案他也有排除這個時效的這個適用的這樣的一個立法立案是不是我們國家的法制面還要如您剛才講的那麼保守\n說這個應該夠啦二十年三十年一線型的法律的制度夠但是如果夠為什麼還是問題層出不窮不窮正兒少被性侵害的案件長大之後沒有辦法來追溯讓這些犯罪者就有一個僥倖的一個心態即便我做這些犯罪那未來這些人成年之後過了一段時間如果他不敢揭露\n於是他們就假信他們就追過了就逃過了法律的追溯所以我是建議法要隨時者轉我們不要在這種保守的心態要進步的立法否則這種事件層出不窮\n則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．\n報告委員我們沒有反對的意思我們只是就法制面來看檢討我們現有制度是不是足夠那我們非常的尊重我們大會的委員的意見所以市長我覺得有點保守啦所以說我還是希望您提出懇切的一個建議到底是用這個排除追溯權時效比較OK比較不會有問題還是說我們在他成年以後再來進行時效的一個進行之前都停止\n這是一個不確定的法律概念你沒有提出這樣的一個見解那到底要如何來讓這個法條修正能夠達到社會大眾的一個期待你能夠保障我們這些未成年的受性侵的這些被害者\n第二個問題我在請問次長\n我想對於我們這次在立法院職權行使法的修正當中我們大家一直在討論就是說這個我們是不是可以讓這些受調查聽證的這些不管是公務人員或者是我們的團體法人或者利害關係的人民可以請律師到場那我想問次長醫生在我們的訴訟制度可以請律師到場的情況是有哪些\n我想那個被告犯罪嫌疑人這些都可以那經過檢察官同意的話因為基於偵查的指揮應該也不會派出但是要經過檢察官同意所以我們在刑事訴訟的犯罪嫌疑人或者被告他是在接受偵訊或者在詢問的時候他可以請辯護人到場嘛這是他的權利嘛那我們的民事訴訟或者行政訴訟就不是一定要請律師嘛\n他有沒有請律師當時能自己考量嗎?因為如果說一個法律制定以後他有涉及到人民的自由權或者是他的財產權的侵害他可能會因為違反規定\n較無爭議是尊重當事人的意見會比較好。所以市長其實我要跟你講的就是說因為我們這一次的立法委員職權行使法我們修訂就是說這些受聽證人他到場來接受聽證的時候經過主席同意與必要時他得請律師到場但是我們看到民進黨委員講說這一條你們這違憲啊你怎麼可以說一定要經過主席同意\n必要時才可以請律師。他的看法似乎認為說我們就是把他當作刑事被告啊。\n其實職長我剛已經跟你就教過其實我們在什麼情況之下可以請律師那就是說你在刑事訴訟的程序裡面你是被當作犯罪嫌疑人被當作被告所以你有三項權利嘛第一個就是說你可以保持緘默不違背自己的意識而為陳述第二個你可以申請調查有利於自己的證據第三個你可以選任辯護人嘛\n所以我們法律明定說在可以選任辯護人可以請律師的情況是在這種情況之下至於民事訴訟跟行政訴訟你可以委任律師到庭來帶領你去出庭嘛所以只有限於這幾種情況嘛如果是證人證人可以請律師嗎可以嗎\n證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候\n這不是他的權利嘛你懂不同意我知道我知道對嘛對是不是所以一定要該如你剛才講的如果證人一定要請律師到場來協助他也可能要經過檢察官或者法官的一個同意因為有些證人他他現在身份是證人但是身份轉換在我們訴訟法上是可能發生的可能發生你當時在證人到庭以前他可能會擔心\n對沒錯沒錯這規定法\n對嘛 這個因為是法律的一個強制規定讓他可以請律師嘛但是我現在一直強調說說我們在國會行使醫藥職權刑法行使調查聽證權的時候不是一定要讓他這個請律師到場嘛你是來聽證接受聽證的嘛來來證言的嘛不是叫你來當不是把你當犯罪嫌疑人當被告這是不一樣的一個訴訟的一個的一個這個體制嘛\n因為剛才我特別有提到說如果又涉及到自由權的問題或者是財產權的問題的話經過多方的討論然後學者專家意見還有法治的程序上如果能夠討論的話將來在執行上可能會比較沒有爭執啦我只是這樣子的意見所以我想這個這部分就證人我只跟你討論證人啦證人是沒有請律師的權利啦這點你同意吧\n議員林思銘\n指出的標準非常嚴格,未來公然侮辱罪必須符合三項的審查標準。必須當場侮辱,必須基於妨害公務的目的,必須影響執行公務。\n所以未來我們的警察在執行公務的時候如果說只是單純民眾單純的口頭抱怨或者抽象的辱罵或僅針對公務員執行的職務本身沒有針對特定的個人\n而且沒有影響公務的進行就不會被認定說是公然侮辱我們的公務所以警察開紅單如果比如說廣泛的指稱警察開紅單是政府養的狗這會不會構成公然侮辱罪公然侮辱我們的公務人員罪\n這部分是要依照大法官的解釋在第43段裡面有特別提到足以影響公務員執行公務他有講這個情形要實施才會構成犯罪那例如說單純的揶揄啦或者嘲諷的話那可能未必會構成公難無路那個對公務員公難無路的罪行是我想這樣放寬言論自由當然是大法官的一個選擇但是當然這樣放寬言論自由\n如何來保障我們的執法尊嚴如何來維護我們的正義所以大法官這樣的解釋其實在我們現在很實務上來看這種解釋根本沒有去考量我們執法人員他的一個尊嚴\n所以現在對執法人員來講大家看到這個解釋都傻眼了就執法人員來講他如果他個人的名義受到或是受到損害的時候他還是有三百零九條的公然侮辱罪的對個人身份法個人法益的侵害的部分他可以提起告訴的\n在大法官的解釋裡面也有思考到說對於公務員的不是國家法律的部分侵害的時候對個人法律的侵害這部分是不是要改成公訴罪他在第五十段裡面曾經有提出這個部分的一些建議跟說明市長其實這份判決又認為說宣告五物植物罪是違憲的\n這明顯就是為楊蕙如在解套嘛所以我想如果大法官是這樣子完全向執政黨來靠攏的話而不對於我們的這個相關的不管我們的公務機關這些被人家謾罵在網路上放布不實訊息來這樣批判的話一點尊嚴都沒有啊這國家未來這個國家的公務系統啊如何來\n﹚林思銘\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.355 --> 00:10.823\n謝謝主席主席我們請次長麻煩次長\n\n00:15.782 --> 00:45.285\n委員好,謝謝次長。我想今天大家關心的這個兒少追溯權受性侵追溯權失效的議題我想我們回顧一下這個憲法法庭在3月25號公布了一份受理的案件112年度憲民制第384號他的案由是未告出妨害性自主案件認為台灣士林地方法院111年度審判制第37號刑事裁定\n\n00:46.145 --> 01:07.741\n他所適用的刑法八十條及刑法司刑法第八條之一的規定有違憲疑議,申請裁判就憲法法庭來做一個審查。該案主要是關於發生在民國九十四年刑法修正前的妨害限制組追溯權時效的問題。\n\n01:09.022 --> 01:09.623\n則不予審查\n\n01:27.623 --> 01:51.782\n所以這種情形有好幾件比如說高雄體操選手的案件還有台中的房思琦等案件都是因為成年因為時效超過而沒有辦法追溯因為這個都是在他們未成年的時候所遭受的性侵或者猥褻\n\n01:53.183 --> 02:07.713\n所以我們看到兒童及青少年在經歷性侵害之後他往往不容易在短時間內來揭露他性侵害的這個內容或者去報案所以導致無法去追溯\n\n02:08.573 --> 02:30.768\n那麼又因為他這個未成年遭受性侵者他的自視有限也無法清楚的表達而且也可能受限於環境或權勢缺乏支持而求助無門他不得不沉默以對我們看到澳洲皇家調查委員會的全國機構兒童性侵調查發現\n\n02:33.085 --> 02:54.327\n獲判者平均花23.9年才第一次揭露童年性侵的經歷所以這個時間非常的久所以等到成年之後他想要對他的這個犯罪者提起告訴那因為追訴前已經過了而使他這個沒有辦法\n\n02:56.068 --> 03:12.533\n來提出告訴也讓犯罪者逃過刑法的制裁讓正義無法伸張所以我們為成年者身心發展因為不成熟如果受到性侵會嚴重影響他未來身心的一個發展\n\n03:13.604 --> 03:39.105\n所以這種對兒少的性侵的事件真的是我們天理難容非常重大的一個惡行所以我們這一次我們兩位委員的修法一個當然是針對說這個是不是就排除這種兒少性侵的事件排除我們追溯前時效的適用那另外一個版本是說就是我們在他未成年以前就停止時效的一個追溯\n\n03:40.356 --> 04:02.774\n那我想問這個次長到底法務部的意見因為我看你的報告裡面當然你講了好多的國外的好幾個一個立法例就是也有排除追溯權時效也有追溯權時效停止進行或者延長追溯權時效的期間或者追溯權時效延後起算\n\n04:04.127 --> 04:22.889\n到底法務部的意見你認為到底採哪一種立法例是最好的因為你的報告都寫了好像這個也不行那個也不行但是我們剛才點出有那麼多的一個問題我看羅志強委員剛才也講得非常清楚所以到底法務部你要有一個明確的立場\n\n04:25.060 --> 04:50.892\n提出建議一下一招我們去年召集專家的這個行修小組會議的結論是認為現有的規定制度應該是在追溯權方面的規定是沒有什麼問題那因為他的追溯權期間是二十到三十一定會跨過被害人成年的這個門檻\n\n04:52.453 --> 05:10.191\n當然不可能說到40歲50歲這麼遠但是至少是成年成年以後這個被害人他理論上他應該在社會上有一定的這個經濟能力社會地位他應該可以思索去是不是提出告訴而且這個又涉及到證據收集的問題\n\n05:11.232 --> 05:32.926\n二十年的案子如果再不提起的話法制序安定的部分就是說追溯權時效這個設計我們是了解了但是對於這種兒少性侵的案件因為我們看到國外立法立案他也有排除這個時效的這個適用的這樣的一個立法立案是不是我們國家的法制面還要如您剛才講的那麼保守\n\n05:34.847 --> 06:01.881\n說這個應該夠啦二十年三十年一線型的法律的制度夠但是如果夠為什麼還是問題層出不窮不窮正兒少被性侵害的案件長大之後沒有辦法來追溯讓這些犯罪者就有一個僥倖的一個心態即便我做這些犯罪那未來這些人成年之後過了一段時間如果他不敢揭露\n\n06:04.486 --> 06:20.088\n於是他們就假信他們就追過了就逃過了法律的追溯所以我是建議法要隨時者轉我們不要在這種保守的心態要進步的立法否則這種事件層出不窮\n\n06:21.408 --> 06:24.650\n則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．\n\n06:45.279 --> 07:13.269\n報告委員我們沒有反對的意思我們只是就法制面來看檢討我們現有制度是不是足夠那我們非常的尊重我們大會的委員的意見所以市長我覺得有點保守啦所以說我還是希望您提出懇切的一個建議到底是用這個排除追溯權時效比較OK比較不會有問題還是說我們在他成年以後再來進行時效的一個進行之前都停止\n\n07:15.390 --> 07:37.749\n這是一個不確定的法律概念你沒有提出這樣的一個見解那到底要如何來讓這個法條修正能夠達到社會大眾的一個期待你能夠保障我們這些未成年的受性侵的這些被害者\n\n07:38.650 --> 07:38.990\n第二個問題我在請問次長\n\n07:57.907 --> 08:24.388\n我想對於我們這次在立法院職權行使法的修正當中我們大家一直在討論就是說這個我們是不是可以讓這些受調查聽證的這些不管是公務人員或者是我們的團體法人或者利害關係的人民可以請律師到場那我想問次長醫生在我們的訴訟制度可以請律師到場的情況是有哪些\n\n08:25.926 --> 08:55.009\n我想那個被告犯罪嫌疑人這些都可以那經過檢察官同意的話因為基於偵查的指揮應該也不會派出但是要經過檢察官同意所以我們在刑事訴訟的犯罪嫌疑人或者被告他是在接受偵訊或者在詢問的時候他可以請辯護人到場嘛這是他的權利嘛那我們的民事訴訟或者行政訴訟就不是一定要請律師嘛\n\n08:56.090 --> 09:06.879\n他有沒有請律師當時能自己考量嗎?因為如果說一個法律制定以後他有涉及到人民的自由權或者是他的財產權的侵害他可能會因為違反規定\n\n09:10.114 --> 09:36.236\n較無爭議是尊重當事人的意見會比較好。所以市長其實我要跟你講的就是說因為我們這一次的立法委員職權行使法我們修訂就是說這些受聽證人他到場來接受聽證的時候經過主席同意與必要時他得請律師到場但是我們看到民進黨委員講說這一條你們這違憲啊你怎麼可以說一定要經過主席同意\n\n09:37.198 --> 09:43.010\n必要時才可以請律師。他的看法似乎認為說我們就是把他當作刑事被告啊。\n\n09:44.284 --> 10:07.891\n其實職長我剛已經跟你就教過其實我們在什麼情況之下可以請律師那就是說你在刑事訴訟的程序裡面你是被當作犯罪嫌疑人被當作被告所以你有三項權利嘛第一個就是說你可以保持緘默不違背自己的意識而為陳述第二個你可以申請調查有利於自己的證據第三個你可以選任辯護人嘛\n\n10:09.131 --> 10:29.048\n所以我們法律明定說在可以選任辯護人可以請律師的情況是在這種情況之下至於民事訴訟跟行政訴訟你可以委任律師到庭來帶領你去出庭嘛所以只有限於這幾種情況嘛如果是證人證人可以請律師嗎可以嗎\n\n10:30.029 --> 10:46.222\n證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候\n\n10:55.758 --> 11:16.843\n這不是他的權利嘛你懂不同意我知道我知道對嘛對是不是所以一定要該如你剛才講的如果證人一定要請律師到場來協助他也可能要經過檢察官或者法官的一個同意因為有些證人他他現在身份是證人但是身份轉換在我們訴訟法上是可能發生的可能發生你當時在證人到庭以前他可能會擔心\n\n11:17.483 --> 11:17.743\n對沒錯沒錯這規定法\n\n11:33.645 --> 11:59.255\n對嘛這個因為是法律的一個強制規定讓他可以請律師嘛但是我現在一直強調說說我們在國會行使醫藥職權刑法行使調查聽證權的時候不是一定要讓他這個請律師到場嘛你是來聽證接受聽證的嘛來來證言的嘛不是叫你來當不是把你當犯罪嫌疑人當被告這是不一樣的一個訴訟的一個的一個這個體制嘛\n\n12:03.616 --> 12:30.603\n因為剛才我特別有提到說如果又涉及到自由權的問題或者是財產權的問題的話經過多方的討論然後學者專家意見還有法治的程序上如果能夠討論的話將來在執行上可能會比較沒有爭執啦我只是這樣子的意見所以我想這個這部分就證人我只跟你討論證人啦證人是沒有請律師的權利啦這點你同意吧\n\n12:31.923 --> 12:32.284\n議員林思銘\n\n12:56.769 --> 13:10.387\n指出的標準非常嚴格,未來公然侮辱罪必須符合三項的審查標準。必須當場侮辱,必須基於妨害公務的目的,必須影響執行公務。\n\n13:11.428 --> 13:27.988\n所以未來我們的警察在執行公務的時候如果說只是單純民眾單純的口頭抱怨或者抽象的辱罵或僅針對公務員執行的職務本身沒有針對特定的個人\n\n13:28.949 --> 13:53.306\n而且沒有影響公務的進行就不會被認定說是公然侮辱我們的公務所以警察開紅單如果比如說廣泛的指稱警察開紅單是政府養的狗這會不會構成公然侮辱罪公然侮辱我們的公務人員罪\n\n13:54.558 --> 14:21.348\n這部分是要依照大法官的解釋在第43段裡面有特別提到足以影響公務員執行公務他有講這個情形要實施才會構成犯罪那例如說單純的揶揄啦或者嘲諷的話那可能未必會構成公難無路那個對公務員公難無路的罪行是我想這樣放寬言論自由當然是大法官的一個選擇但是當然這樣放寬言論自由\n\n14:22.208 --> 14:39.029\n如何來保障我們的執法尊嚴如何來維護我們的正義所以大法官這樣的解釋其實在我們現在很實務上來看這種解釋根本沒有去考量我們執法人員他的一個尊嚴\n\n14:40.990 --> 14:55.555\n所以現在對執法人員來講大家看到這個解釋都傻眼了就執法人員來講他如果他個人的名義受到或是受到損害的時候他還是有三百零九條的公然侮辱罪的對個人身份法個人法益的侵害的部分他可以提起告訴的\n\n14:56.515 --> 15:22.610\n在大法官的解釋裡面也有思考到說對於公務員的不是國家法律的部分侵害的時候對個人法律的侵害這部分是不是要改成公訴罪他在第五十段裡面曾經有提出這個部分的一些建議跟說明市長其實這份判決又認為說宣告五物植物罪是違憲的\n\n15:24.896 --> 15:51.467\n這明顯就是為楊蕙如在解套嘛所以我想如果大法官是這樣子完全向執政黨來靠攏的話而不對於我們的這個相關的不管我們的公務機關這些被人家謾罵在網路上放布不實訊息來這樣批判的話一點尊嚴都沒有啊這國家未來這個國家的公務系統啊如何來\n\n15:52.888 --> 15:53.028\n﹚林思銘\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.355,"end":10.823,"text":"謝謝主席主席我們請次長麻煩次長"},{"start":15.782,"end":45.285,"text":"委員好,謝謝次長。我想今天大家關心的這個兒少追溯權受性侵追溯權失效的議題我想我們回顧一下這個憲法法庭在3月25號公布了一份受理的案件112年度憲民制第384號他的案由是未告出妨害性自主案件認為台灣士林地方法院111年度審判制第37號刑事裁定"},{"start":46.145,"end":67.741,"text":"他所適用的刑法八十條及刑法司刑法第八條之一的規定有違憲疑議,申請裁判就憲法法庭來做一個審查。該案主要是關於發生在民國九十四年刑法修正前的妨害限制組追溯權時效的問題。"},{"start":69.022,"end":69.623,"text":"則不予審查"},{"start":87.623,"end":111.782,"text":"所以這種情形有好幾件比如說高雄體操選手的案件還有台中的房思琦等案件都是因為成年因為時效超過而沒有辦法追溯因為這個都是在他們未成年的時候所遭受的性侵或者猥褻"},{"start":113.183,"end":127.713,"text":"所以我們看到兒童及青少年在經歷性侵害之後他往往不容易在短時間內來揭露他性侵害的這個內容或者去報案所以導致無法去追溯"},{"start":128.573,"end":150.768,"text":"那麼又因為他這個未成年遭受性侵者他的自視有限也無法清楚的表達而且也可能受限於環境或權勢缺乏支持而求助無門他不得不沉默以對我們看到澳洲皇家調查委員會的全國機構兒童性侵調查發現"},{"start":153.085,"end":174.327,"text":"獲判者平均花23.9年才第一次揭露童年性侵的經歷所以這個時間非常的久所以等到成年之後他想要對他的這個犯罪者提起告訴那因為追訴前已經過了而使他這個沒有辦法"},{"start":176.068,"end":192.533,"text":"來提出告訴也讓犯罪者逃過刑法的制裁讓正義無法伸張所以我們為成年者身心發展因為不成熟如果受到性侵會嚴重影響他未來身心的一個發展"},{"start":193.604,"end":219.105,"text":"所以這種對兒少的性侵的事件真的是我們天理難容非常重大的一個惡行所以我們這一次我們兩位委員的修法一個當然是針對說這個是不是就排除這種兒少性侵的事件排除我們追溯前時效的適用那另外一個版本是說就是我們在他未成年以前就停止時效的一個追溯"},{"start":220.356,"end":242.774,"text":"那我想問這個次長到底法務部的意見因為我看你的報告裡面當然你講了好多的國外的好幾個一個立法例就是也有排除追溯權時效也有追溯權時效停止進行或者延長追溯權時效的期間或者追溯權時效延後起算"},{"start":244.127,"end":262.889,"text":"到底法務部的意見你認為到底採哪一種立法例是最好的因為你的報告都寫了好像這個也不行那個也不行但是我們剛才點出有那麼多的一個問題我看羅志強委員剛才也講得非常清楚所以到底法務部你要有一個明確的立場"},{"start":265.06,"end":290.892,"text":"提出建議一下一招我們去年召集專家的這個行修小組會議的結論是認為現有的規定制度應該是在追溯權方面的規定是沒有什麼問題那因為他的追溯權期間是二十到三十一定會跨過被害人成年的這個門檻"},{"start":292.453,"end":310.191,"text":"當然不可能說到40歲50歲這麼遠但是至少是成年成年以後這個被害人他理論上他應該在社會上有一定的這個經濟能力社會地位他應該可以思索去是不是提出告訴而且這個又涉及到證據收集的問題"},{"start":311.232,"end":332.926,"text":"二十年的案子如果再不提起的話法制序安定的部分就是說追溯權時效這個設計我們是了解了但是對於這種兒少性侵的案件因為我們看到國外立法立案他也有排除這個時效的這個適用的這樣的一個立法立案是不是我們國家的法制面還要如您剛才講的那麼保守"},{"start":334.847,"end":361.881,"text":"說這個應該夠啦二十年三十年一線型的法律的制度夠但是如果夠為什麼還是問題層出不窮不窮正兒少被性侵害的案件長大之後沒有辦法來追溯讓這些犯罪者就有一個僥倖的一個心態即便我做這些犯罪那未來這些人成年之後過了一段時間如果他不敢揭露"},{"start":364.486,"end":380.088,"text":"於是他們就假信他們就追過了就逃過了法律的追溯所以我是建議法要隨時者轉我們不要在這種保守的心態要進步的立法否則這種事件層出不窮"},{"start":381.408,"end":384.65,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":405.279,"end":433.269,"text":"報告委員我們沒有反對的意思我們只是就法制面來看檢討我們現有制度是不是足夠那我們非常的尊重我們大會的委員的意見所以市長我覺得有點保守啦所以說我還是希望您提出懇切的一個建議到底是用這個排除追溯權時效比較OK比較不會有問題還是說我們在他成年以後再來進行時效的一個進行之前都停止"},{"start":435.39,"end":457.749,"text":"這是一個不確定的法律概念你沒有提出這樣的一個見解那到底要如何來讓這個法條修正能夠達到社會大眾的一個期待你能夠保障我們這些未成年的受性侵的這些被害者"},{"start":458.65,"end":458.99,"text":"第二個問題我在請問次長"},{"start":477.907,"end":504.388,"text":"我想對於我們這次在立法院職權行使法的修正當中我們大家一直在討論就是說這個我們是不是可以讓這些受調查聽證的這些不管是公務人員或者是我們的團體法人或者利害關係的人民可以請律師到場那我想問次長醫生在我們的訴訟制度可以請律師到場的情況是有哪些"},{"start":505.926,"end":535.009,"text":"我想那個被告犯罪嫌疑人這些都可以那經過檢察官同意的話因為基於偵查的指揮應該也不會派出但是要經過檢察官同意所以我們在刑事訴訟的犯罪嫌疑人或者被告他是在接受偵訊或者在詢問的時候他可以請辯護人到場嘛這是他的權利嘛那我們的民事訴訟或者行政訴訟就不是一定要請律師嘛"},{"start":536.09,"end":546.879,"text":"他有沒有請律師當時能自己考量嗎?因為如果說一個法律制定以後他有涉及到人民的自由權或者是他的財產權的侵害他可能會因為違反規定"},{"start":550.114,"end":576.236,"text":"較無爭議是尊重當事人的意見會比較好。所以市長其實我要跟你講的就是說因為我們這一次的立法委員職權行使法我們修訂就是說這些受聽證人他到場來接受聽證的時候經過主席同意與必要時他得請律師到場但是我們看到民進黨委員講說這一條你們這違憲啊你怎麼可以說一定要經過主席同意"},{"start":577.198,"end":583.01,"text":"必要時才可以請律師。他的看法似乎認為說我們就是把他當作刑事被告啊。"},{"start":584.284,"end":607.891,"text":"其實職長我剛已經跟你就教過其實我們在什麼情況之下可以請律師那就是說你在刑事訴訟的程序裡面你是被當作犯罪嫌疑人被當作被告所以你有三項權利嘛第一個就是說你可以保持緘默不違背自己的意識而為陳述第二個你可以申請調查有利於自己的證據第三個你可以選任辯護人嘛"},{"start":609.131,"end":629.048,"text":"所以我們法律明定說在可以選任辯護人可以請律師的情況是在這種情況之下至於民事訴訟跟行政訴訟你可以委任律師到庭來帶領你去出庭嘛所以只有限於這幾種情況嘛如果是證人證人可以請律師嗎可以嗎"},{"start":630.029,"end":646.222,"text":"證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候"},{"start":655.758,"end":676.843,"text":"這不是他的權利嘛你懂不同意我知道我知道對嘛對是不是所以一定要該如你剛才講的如果證人一定要請律師到場來協助他也可能要經過檢察官或者法官的一個同意因為有些證人他他現在身份是證人但是身份轉換在我們訴訟法上是可能發生的可能發生你當時在證人到庭以前他可能會擔心"},{"start":677.483,"end":677.743,"text":"對沒錯沒錯這規定法"},{"start":693.645,"end":719.255,"text":"對嘛 這個因為是法律的一個強制規定讓他可以請律師嘛但是我現在一直強調說說我們在國會行使醫藥職權刑法行使調查聽證權的時候不是一定要讓他這個請律師到場嘛你是來聽證接受聽證的嘛來來證言的嘛不是叫你來當不是把你當犯罪嫌疑人當被告這是不一樣的一個訴訟的一個的一個這個體制嘛"},{"start":723.616,"end":750.603,"text":"因為剛才我特別有提到說如果又涉及到自由權的問題或者是財產權的問題的話經過多方的討論然後學者專家意見還有法治的程序上如果能夠討論的話將來在執行上可能會比較沒有爭執啦我只是這樣子的意見所以我想這個這部分就證人我只跟你討論證人啦證人是沒有請律師的權利啦這點你同意吧"},{"start":751.923,"end":752.284,"text":"議員林思銘"},{"start":776.769,"end":790.387,"text":"指出的標準非常嚴格,未來公然侮辱罪必須符合三項的審查標準。必須當場侮辱,必須基於妨害公務的目的,必須影響執行公務。"},{"start":791.428,"end":807.988,"text":"所以未來我們的警察在執行公務的時候如果說只是單純民眾單純的口頭抱怨或者抽象的辱罵或僅針對公務員執行的職務本身沒有針對特定的個人"},{"start":808.949,"end":833.306,"text":"而且沒有影響公務的進行就不會被認定說是公然侮辱我們的公務所以警察開紅單如果比如說廣泛的指稱警察開紅單是政府養的狗這會不會構成公然侮辱罪公然侮辱我們的公務人員罪"},{"start":834.558,"end":861.348,"text":"這部分是要依照大法官的解釋在第43段裡面有特別提到足以影響公務員執行公務他有講這個情形要實施才會構成犯罪那例如說單純的揶揄啦或者嘲諷的話那可能未必會構成公難無路那個對公務員公難無路的罪行是我想這樣放寬言論自由當然是大法官的一個選擇但是當然這樣放寬言論自由"},{"start":862.208,"end":879.029,"text":"如何來保障我們的執法尊嚴如何來維護我們的正義所以大法官這樣的解釋其實在我們現在很實務上來看這種解釋根本沒有去考量我們執法人員他的一個尊嚴"},{"start":880.99,"end":895.555,"text":"所以現在對執法人員來講大家看到這個解釋都傻眼了就執法人員來講他如果他個人的名義受到或是受到損害的時候他還是有三百零九條的公然侮辱罪的對個人身份法個人法益的侵害的部分他可以提起告訴的"},{"start":896.515,"end":922.61,"text":"在大法官的解釋裡面也有思考到說對於公務員的不是國家法律的部分侵害的時候對個人法律的侵害這部分是不是要改成公訴罪他在第五十段裡面曾經有提出這個部分的一些建議跟說明市長其實這份判決又認為說宣告五物植物罪是違憲的"},{"start":924.896,"end":951.467,"text":"這明顯就是為楊蕙如在解套嘛所以我想如果大法官是這樣子完全向執政黨來靠攏的話而不對於我們的這個相關的不管我們的公務機關這些被人家謾罵在網路上放布不實訊息來這樣批判的話一點尊嚴都沒有啊這國家未來這個國家的公務系統啊如何來"},{"start":952.888,"end":953.028,"text":"﹚林思銘"}]}}}}