{"id":153018,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153018","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b35cf54ce7b7e6142afcddaa0058768d2e945ede7791f90b9e0829107de0fecc655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:56:40 - 11:12:10","影片長度":"00:15:30","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員魯明哲等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【第二案（十七）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":930,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":26,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-26"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T11:12:10+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T10:56:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":537,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時2分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴。有請次長。"],["主席：好，麻煩次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長好，很遺憾，因為我的疏失、帶錯了檔案，所以現在PowerPoint沒有辦法呈現，待會兒他準備好了，馬上就來。","首先請教一下，今天詐欺罪的修法是要解決詐欺猖獗的問題，是不是這樣？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們把它加重，從一年以上七年以下，加重為三年以上十年以下，是不是這樣？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你認為我們這樣做有回應到人民的期待嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，如果是就加重的這個，應該是符合人民的期待。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是我要跟你說的是，其實當人民表達他們希望加重的時候，他們希望的不是關得久，而是希望抓得到，是不是這樣？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們希望未來檢警調的精神可以多放一些在打擊詐欺上，你同意嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，這樣我們就來看一下，請問詐欺罪是非告訴乃論，是不是要主動偵辦？非告訴乃論不是要主動偵辦嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：詐欺罪是非告訴乃論。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對。"],["徐次長錫祥：除非是親屬，有一定的親屬關係……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，你們要不要主動偵辦？"],["徐次長錫祥：要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，目前我們一年有多少的詐騙案件，你們的偵查能量足夠嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們還是依法要偵辦案件，當然是很吃緊，對於我們現有的人力來講是很吃緊，不過……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以如果這個時候我們在刑法上增加其他的罪則，你覺得會不會讓我們檢警的能量備多力分？"],["徐次長錫祥：檢警的能量？"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，就是說，本來人民希望我們集中打擊詐欺嘛！"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果我們現在東增一個罪、西增一個罪，你覺得這樣會不會反而讓我們的力量分散？"],["徐次長錫祥：這個沒有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有辦法判斷？"],["徐次長錫祥：沒有辦法判斷。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那請教一下，如果依照目前我們正在審議的藐視國會罪，它是不是非告訴乃論？依照目前，包括翁版、傅版，在第一百四十條之一、第一百四十一條之一和第一百四十一條之二，您所知道的情況，你看看，我現在show出來了。"],["徐次長錫祥：不是告訴乃論。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是告訴乃論。如果這個藐視國會罪一旦入法、一旦成立，那麼國會的質詢影片，檢察官看到影片當中，他是不是應該主動偵辦？如果委員認為應詢的官員有觸及到藐視國會，譬如說拒不作答啦！或者隱匿啦！或者作虛偽陳述啦！你覺得檢察官須不須要主動偵辦？既然它是刑法上的非告訴乃論，在公堂上公然為之，要不要去處理？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，照法律上來講，非告訴乃論之罪，檢察官知道有犯罪嫌疑，當然要主動偵辦。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要主動偵辦。"],["徐次長錫祥：但是所謂的犯罪嫌疑，那是必須要集合很多的證據。"],["鍾委員佳濱：譬如說？"],["徐次長錫祥：譬如說，光是這個虛偽陳述，虛偽的部分，因為檢察官不是當事人，他不曉得當事人所講的內容是不是真實的，那很多……是不是構成犯罪嫌疑還要再進一步去調取相關的資料。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然，在我們刑法上，不論是加重詐欺，這些有沒有犯罪嫌疑，檢察官有判斷的餘地，但是在國會上面，今天國、眾兩黨的版本，可以看到它的內容，「公務員於立法院聽證或受質詢時，就其所知之重要關係事項」，請問我們在立法院的質詢，我們會質詢不重要的嗎？我們會質詢沒有關係的嗎？你覺得這裡面所設計的條件限制，第一個「就其所知」，他要知道；第二個要有「重要」；第三個要有「關係」。你認為就這樣的條文規定，你有辦法看質詢影片就知道這個事情是不是這個官員所知、這個是不是國會質詢的重要、這個是不是跟當天討論的案件有關？你有沒有辦法判斷？"],["徐次長錫祥：是，所以我剛才跟委員特別報告，我們檢察官不太可能看影帶然後就有辦法認定……"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為你沒有辦法判斷是不是他所知……"],["徐次長錫祥：沒有辦法判斷。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是重要，也不能判斷是不是跟國會的質詢有關係，是不是這樣子？"],["徐次長錫祥：而且我們對於國會的尊重，我們理論上來講會讓國會自己先去作決定，它有掌握某些資訊、某些證據，然後將來可能會移送地檢署偵辦。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。所以我是覺得，我們明顯看到，此刻在明天的二讀會要進行審議的，就是由我們目前的主席、召委在委員會裡面不經討論、不經審查就直接送到院會去，還送過了修正動議、再修正動議，現在所僅存的第一百四十一條之一，它裡面對於所謂刑法上的一些要件，我們都沒有辦法明確判斷。","往下看，好，誰可以提告訴？刑事訴訟法第二百三十二條「犯罪之被害人，得為告訴。」，請問在剛剛的藐視國會罪當中，誰是犯罪的被害人？"],["徐次長錫祥：應該是國家，屬於國家法益。"],["鍾委員佳濱：國家嗎？那立法委員可不可以主張我自己的質詢權，我質詢你，我發現你藐視國會，犯了刑法第一百四十一條之一，我要求提起告訴，可以向檢察官提起告訴嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：應該是告發。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以告發？"],["徐次長錫祥：任何人只要有犯罪嫌疑……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以質詢的國會議員可以告發？"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：看影片的民眾可以告發、看新聞的觀眾可以告發，是這樣的意思嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你確定的話，我想就很清楚了，我們現在來看，每個人民都可以去北檢按鈴告發嗎？當時有一個臺北市議員質疑當時的農委會主委陳吉仲浪費公帑4億元，他們兩個去告發他瀆職罪，你們會怎麼處理？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們會分案偵辦。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那時候你們後來怎麼處理？就本案來講，你們怎麼處理？"],["徐次長錫祥：一樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們後來處理了嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：只要去按鈴申告、告發，我們一定會分案處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們就很清楚了嘛！今天社會大眾殷殷期盼的是集中我們檢調的力量，透過我們修法加重詐欺的刑責後，你們去幫人民去除這個大害。如果今天因為政治上的立場不同、意見不同、多元言論，我只要看立法院的質詢，我認為那個官員在回答我立場相同的國會議員的質詢有問題，我就去按鈴告發，你覺得會不會造成我們檢察官疲於奔命？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們受理告發，依法偵辦，這是我們的義務，不好評論說……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，可能你不便評論目前還在審議中的法案。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來看一下，目前藐視國會罪有幾個版本，有翁曉玲的版本，處罰對象是官員，如果是第一百四十一條之一及之二是傅崐萁的版本，處罰對象是官員加人民，如果是目前國眾的再修正動議，處罰對象是官員；行為的樣態，翁版包括了其他藐視國會的行為，傅崐萁版包括了反質詢，到了國眾版的再修正動議，僅剩聽證、質詢時的虛偽陳述；刑責從三年、三年，降到現在主席說的一年其實沒有很重、很輕微。你覺得這是不是處罰對象及行為的限縮？就這樣的沿革來講，從翁版、傅版到再修正版是不是限縮？"],["徐次長錫祥：這個裡面的內容不是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我只是說從官員，處罰對象有沒有限縮了？刑責有沒有？行為上有沒有限縮了？"],["徐次長錫祥：是不一樣的，官員是始終沒有改變，只有人民是不是對象……"],["鍾委員佳濱：然後藐視國會的行為及反質詢……"],["徐次長錫祥：然後反質詢也有調整……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對。"],["徐次長錫祥：所以每個人的看法都不是很一致。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，所以現在限縮到只剩在立法院職權行使法當中要增加的聽證及原本有的質詢時的虛偽陳述，是不是這樣子？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以我們目前看到中華民國刑法第五章之一、第一百四十一條之一、第一百四十一條之二的再修正動議，所謂的「就其所知之重要關係事項，為虛偽陳述者」，「重要關係事項」就是會影響質詢的結論，那有沒有不重要的？剛剛我所詢問，你認為國會議員在詢問行政官員有不重要的嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，好，所以我們就可以看清楚，今天我藉這個機會，因為國民黨主控的司法及法制委員會不給委員有不同的意見、不同的討論，所以我們被迫要用質詢的方式，就明天即將要做二讀審議，因為民眾抗議，已經縮回到只剩第一百四十一條之一再修正動議的內容，來給大家看一個訴求，這個結論也同時跟主席報告，我們希望未來能夠刪除藐視國會罪，就是再修正的退回重審，還有所有法案退回到司法及法制委員會重新審議。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員。","鍾委員，有關剛剛你說我主持的不經討論、不經審查，我想鍾委員可能記憶有發生錯誤，這個部分再麻煩鍾委員回去看一下當天的直播有沒有經過討論、有沒有經過審查。","另外，我覺得大家都是國會議員，對於記者的下標，關一年叫做不重，這句話，我認為如果鍾委員對這句話有興趣的話，要批評本席，應該先去聽一下當時記者會的完整發言，而不是看記者下標，因為我覺得現在媒體有時候下標與事實的差距都蠻大，我想鍾委員一定也都很瞭解，我覺得記者怎麼寫，我們尊重他的寫法，但你拿這個來質詢同仁，我覺得沒有意思。好，謝謝鍾委員。","接下來請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-26","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","王育敏","沈發惠","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","翁曉玲","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135102_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委\n員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案；二、繼續併案審查 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687.15, \"end\": 716.397, \"text\": \"我那是應該是國家國家嗎那立法委員可不可以主張我自己的質詢權我質詢你我發現你藐視國會犯了刑法第11之二之一那我要求提起告訴可以向檢察官提起告訴嗎應該是告發可以可以告發任何人只要違反罪那個所以質詢的國會議員可以告發看影片的民眾可以告發看新聞的觀眾可以告發是這樣的意思嗎是的你確定齁好我想就很清楚了嘛好我們現在看\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 687.15, \"end\": 687.25, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 687.25, \"end\": 687.43, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 687.43, \"end\": 688.21, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 688.21, \"end\": 688.59, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 688.59, \"end\": 689.511, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 689.511, \"end\": 689.811, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 689.811, \"end\": 689.991, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 689.991, \"end\": 690.131, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 690.131, \"end\": 690.311, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 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\"所以說我們目前看到的中華民國刑法第五章五至一章五章之一一四一之條之一一四一之條之二的在修正動議呢所謂的說所以就其所知之重要關係事項為序位之陳述重要關係事項就是影響諮詢的結論那有沒有不重要的剛我所詢問你認為國會議員在詢問行政官員有不重要的嗎沒有沒有好\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 863.542, \"end\": 863.662, \"score\": 0.758}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 863.662, \"end\": 863.962, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 863.962, \"end\": 864.162, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 864.162, \"end\": 864.303, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 864.303, \"end\": 864.463, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 864.463, \"end\": 864.663, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 864.663, \"end\": 864.803, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 864.803, \"end\": 865.223, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 865.223, \"end\": 865.403, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"華\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 865.403, \"end\": 865.764, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"刑\", \"start\": 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924.384, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 924.384, \"end\": 924.604, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 924.604, \"end\": 924.864, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 924.864, \"end\": 925.025, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 925.025, \"end\": 925.145, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 925.145, \"end\": 925.666, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 925.666, \"end\": 925.886, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 925.886, \"end\": 926.006, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 926.006, \"end\": 926.126, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 926.126, \"end\": 926.146, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"en\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,293 --> 00:00:00,455\n並 委 員 發 言 。 謝 謝 。\n\n2\n00:01:53,295 --> 00:02:01,325\n我 跟 你 說 因 為 我 知 道 你 們 在 想 什 麼 那 我 覺 得 要 我 們 就 依 照 會 議 的 順 序 來 其 實 我 是 真 的 給 他 我 真 的 本 來 我 想 說 他 在 做 檔 案 我 真 的 剛 剛 在 修 好\n\n3\n00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:11,383\n委 員 魯 明 哲 等 1 6 人 擬 具 : 「 中 華 民 國 刑 法 第 三 百 三 十 九 條 之 四 條 文 修 正 草 案 ． 則 不 予 審 查 � �\n\n4\n00:02:24,161 --> 00:02:49,840\n不 是 , 那 可 以 麻 煩 你 們 現 在 就 . . . 就 . . . 因 為 這 個 錯 誤 不 能 讓 大 家 擔 嘛 , 對 不 對 ? 我 覺 得 就 麻 煩 您 繼 續 好 了 齁 。 那 不 然 你 跟 吳 思 瑤 對 調 , 你 現 在 跟 他 聯 絡 一 下 , 你 跟 吳 思 瑤 對 調 。 你 現 在 跟 他 對 調 , 對 對 對 。 不 是 , 因 為 我 跟 你 講 , 我 都 怎 麼 會 不 知 道 大 家 心 裡 在 想 什 麼 ?\n\n5\n00:02:50,987 --> 00:02:57,451\n我 我 我 這 個 人 我 這 個 人 不 喜 歡 搞 一 些 那 個 啦 我 比 較 喜 歡 大 家 就 直 球 對 決 該 怎 麼 樣 的 怎 麼 樣\n\n6\n00:03:15,748 --> 00:03:38,104\n因 為 現 在 高 委 主 席 說 我 們 兩 個 對 調 , 可 是 我 覺 得 我 們 兩 個 對 調 很 不 一 樣 。 我 現 在 說 我 的 檔 案 , 對 我 先 講 啦 , 我 要 先 講 說 他 不 讓 我 有 時 間 再 做 檔 案 啦 , 還 是 你 要 分 , 因 為 他 擔 心 說 你 留 在 最 後 。 不 是 啦 , 因 為 大 家 都 在 搞 有 的 沒 有 的 , 我 覺 得 沒 意 思 , 要 嘛 就 依 照 順 序 啦 , 大 家 一 切 依 照 程 序 走 。\n\n7\n00:03:39,409 --> 00:03:54,030\n因 為 難 免 我 們 在 跑 場 的 時 候 有 些 錯 誤 我 本 來 只 想 說 讓 大 家 休 息 我 並 沒 有 什 麼 其 他 意 思 但 現 在 我 的 助 理 在 努 力 的 在 彌 補 他 不 願 意 跟 你 換 嗎 他 也 沒 辦 法 過 來 因 為 他 知 道 我 在 他 前 面\n\n8\n00:03:58,984 --> 00:04:17,713\n所 以 我 跟 你 講 我 知 道 你 們 想 要 幹 什 麼 所 以 我 覺 得 我 真 的 尊 重 每 一 個 人 的 發 言 但 是 我 知 道 在 想 什 麼 啊 你 不 能 因 為 你 們 這 樣 你 想 要 整 個 大 家 都 在 等 啊 沒 有 我 跟 你 講 就 麻 煩 你 現 在 開 始 啦\n\n9\n00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:19,743\n好 麻 煩 你 現 在 開 始\n\n10\n00:05:40,134 --> 00:06:06,754\n那 個 鍾 委 員 你 現 在 要 開 始 了 不 然 我 開 始 計 時 了 真 的 鍾 委 員 你 自 己 準 備 錯 檔 案 的 話 這 個 不 能 不 是 我 跟 你 講 這 已 經 差 不 多 而 且 我 跟 你 說 我 真 的 知 道 你 們 在 想 什 麼 啦 我 真 的 知 道 你 們 在 想 什 麼 所 以 可 不 可 以 麻 煩 你 開 始 好 不 好 那 你 們 每 次 都 玩 這 一 套 好 啦 那 那 個 好 謝 謝 接 下 來 我 們 請 鍾 佳 濱 委 員 發 言\n\n11\n00:06:11,144 --> 00:06:16,476\n主 席 在 場 的 委 員 先 進 列 席 的 政 府 機 關 所 長 官 員 會 長 公 務 夥 伴 那 有 請 次 長 好 謝 謝 麻 煩 次 長 委 員 好\n\n12\n00:06:22,316 --> 00:06:48,366\n市 長 好 , 很 遺 憾 , 因 為 當 然 我 的 疏 失 , 所 以 我 代 出 了 檔 案 , 所 以 現 在 P o w e r P o i n t 沒 辦 法 呈 現 。 待 會 他 準 備 好 了 , 我 馬 上 再 來 。 首 先 原 請 請 教 一 下 , 今 天 的 詐 欺 罪 的 修 法 是 要 解 決 詐 欺 猖 獗 的 問 題 , 是 不 是 這 樣 ? 市 長 是 。 那 所 以 呢 我 們 把 它 加 重 嘛 , 從 一 年 以 上 七 年 以 下 加 重 為 三 年 以 上 十 年 以 下 , 是 不 是 這 樣 ? 市 長 是 。 那 你 認 為 我 們 這 樣 做 有 回 應 到 人 民 的 期 待 嗎 ?\n\n13\n00:06:49,492 --> 00:07:08,289\n報 告 委 員 因 為 有 些 如 果 是 就 加 重 這 個 應 該 是 符 合 人 民 的 期 待 但 是 我 要 跟 你 說 的 說 其 實 當 人 民 表 達 他 們 希 望 加 重 的 時 候 他 們 希 望 的 不 是 關 得 久 而 是 希 望 抓 得 到 是 不 是 這 樣 子 是 所 以 我 們 希 望 未 來 我 們 的 檢 警 調 的\n\n14\n00:07:10,148 --> 00:07:33,006\n的 精 神 可 以 多 放 一 些 在 打 擊 詐 欺 你 同 意 嗎 同 意 好 那 這 樣 我 們 來 看 一 下 齁 那 請 問 一 下 詐 欺 罪 是 告 訴 乃 論 是 不 是 要 主 動 偵 辦 是 非 告 訴 乃 論 要 主 動 偵 辦 嗎 詐 欺 罪 非 告 訴 乃 論 對 除 非 是 親 屬 有 一 定 的 親 屬 關 係 好 那 你 們 要 不 要 主 動 偵 辦 要 好 那 目 前 齁 我 們 一 年 有 多 少 詐 騙 的 案 件 你 們 偵 查 能 量 足 夠 嗎\n\n15\n00:07:35,592 --> 00:07:51,972\n我 們 還 是 依 法 要 偵 辦 案 件 當 然 很 吃 緊 對 我 們 現 有 的 人 力 來 講 很 吃 緊 所 以 如 果 這 個 時 候 我 們 在 刑 法 上 增 加 其 他 的 罪 責 你 覺 得 會 不 會 讓 我 們 的 利 多 倍 分 檢 警 的 能 量 利 多 倍 分\n\n16\n00:07:53,171 --> 00:07:55,092\n請 問 如 果 依 照 目 前 我 們 正 在 審 議 的 藐 視 國 會 罪 , 他 是 不 是 非 告 訴 乃 論 ?\n\n17\n00:08:21,687 --> 00:08:45,782\n依 照 目 前 包 括 o n 版 跟 副 版 在 一 四 零 之 一 跟 一 四 一 之 一 和 一 四 一 之 二 您 所 知 道 的 情 況 你 看 到 這 個 我 現 在 秀 出 來 了 對 不 是 高 中 來 論 不 是 高 中 來 論 是 那 如 果 檢 察 官 看 到 這 個 藐 視 國 會 罪 一 旦 入 法 一 旦 成 立 那 麼 國 會 的 執 行 影 片 檢 察 官 看 到 影 片 當 中 他 是 不 是 說 他 應 該 主 動 偵 辦 如 果 委 員 認 為 應 詢 的 官 員 他 們 有\n\n18\n00:08:50,524 --> 00:09:03,711\n觸 及 到 藐 視 國 會 比 如 說 拒 不 作 答 啦 或 者 隱 匿 啦 或 者 做 虛 偽 的 陳 述 啦 你 覺 得 檢 察 官 會 不 會 需 要 主 動 偵 辦 ? 既 然 那 是 刑 法 的 非 告 訴 乃 論 在 公 堂 上 公 然 的 為 之 要 不 要 去 處 理 ?\n\n19\n00:09:04,875 --> 00:09:33,291\n報 告 委 員 照 法 律 上 來 講 非 告 出 乃 論 之 罪 當 然 檢 察 官 知 道 有 犯 罪 嫌 疑 要 主 動 偵 辦 所 謂 的 犯 罪 嫌 疑 那 是 必 須 要 集 合 很 多 的 證 據 比 如 說 光 是 這 一 個 虛 偽 這 個 虛 偽 的 部 分 的 話 檢 察 官 不 是 當 事 人 他 不 曉 得 當 事 人 講 的 內 容 是 不 是 真 實 那 很 多 是 不 是 構 成 犯 罪 嫌 疑 那 還 要 再 進 一 步 去 調 取 相 關 的 資 料\n\n20\n00:09:34,330 --> 00:09:59,166\n當 然 啊 在 我 們 刑 法 上 不 予 加 重 詐 欺 這 些 有 沒 有 犯 罪 嫌 疑 檢 察 官 有 判 斷 的 餘 地 但 是 在 國 會 上 面 如 果 說 今 天 我 們 未 來 民 國 眾 兩 黨 他 們 說 欸 你 看 到 內 容 喔 公 務 員 於 立 法 院 聽 證 或 受 質 詢 時 就 其 所 知 之 重 要 關 係 事 項 請 問 我 們 在 立 法 院 的 質 詢 我 們 會 質 詢 不 重 要 的 嗎\n\n21\n00:10:00,006 --> 00:10:13,143\n委 員 會 執 行 沒 有 關 係 的 嗎 ? 你 覺 得 這 裡 面 所 設 計 的 一 個 條 件 限 制 就 其 所 知 第 一 個 就 其 所 知 他 要 知 道 第 二 個 要 有 重 要 第 三 要 有 關 係 你 認 為 就 這 樣 的 條 文 規 定 你 有 辦 法 看\n\n22\n00:10:14,970 --> 00:10:35,575\n視 頻 質 詢 就 知 道 說 這 個 事 情 是 在 官 員 所 知 這 個 是 不 是 國 會 質 詢 的 重 要 這 個 是 不 是 跟 當 天 討 論 的 案 件 有 關 你 有 沒 有 辦 法 判 斷 是 所 以 我 剛 才 跟 委 員 特 別 報 告 不 太 可 我 們 檢 察 官 不 太 可 能 看 影 帶 然 後 就 就 就 因 為 你 沒 有 辦 法 判 斷 沒 有 辦 法 判 斷 是 不 是 他 所 知\n\n23\n00:10:36,355 --> 00:10:52,245\n是 不 是 重 要 也 不 能 判 斷 跟 國 會 的 質 詢 有 關 係 而 且 我 們 對 於 國 會 的 尊 重 我 們 理 論 上 來 講 會 讓 國 會 自 己 先 去 做 決 定 說 他 有 哪 掌 握 某 些 資 訊 某 些 證 據 然 後 將 來 會 可 能 要 移 送 第 九 條 正 版\n\n24\n00:10:53,246 --> 00:11:17,474\n所 以 我 是 覺 得 我 們 明 顯 看 到 目 前 此 刻 在 明 天 的 二 讀 會 要 進 行 審 議 的 就 是 由 我 們 目 前 的 主 席 召 委 在 委 員 會 裡 面 不 經 討 論 不 經 審 查 就 直 接 送 到 院 會 去 還 送 過 了 修 正 動 議 再 修 正 動 議 現 在 所 僅 存 的 一 事 一 條 之 一 它 裡 面 對 於 所 謂 的 刑 法 上 的 一 些 要 件 我 們 都 沒 有 辦 法 明 確 判 斷 往 下 看\n\n25\n00:11:18,325 --> 00:11:26,346\n好 , 誰 可 以 提 告 訴 ? 刑 事 訴 訟 法 第 二 三 二 條 , 犯 罪 之 被 害 人 得 為 告 訴 。 請 問 在 剛 剛 的 藐 視 國 會 罪 當 中 , 誰 是 犯 罪 的 被 害 人 ?\n\n26\n00:11:27,150 --> 00:11:56,397\n我 那 是 應 該 是 國 家 國 家 嗎 那 立 法 委 員 可 不 可 以 主 張 我 自 己 的 質 詢 權 我 質 詢 你 我 發 現 你 藐 視 國 會 犯 了 刑 法 第 1 1 之 二 之 一 那 我 要 求 提 起 告 訴 可 以 向 檢 察 官 提 起 告 訴 嗎 應 該 是 告 發 可 以 可 以 告 發 任 何 人 只 要 違 反 罪 那 個 所 以 質 詢 的 國 會 議 員 可 以 告 發 看 影 片 的 民 眾 可 以 告 發 看 新 聞 的 觀 眾 可 以 告 發 是 這 樣 的 意 思 嗎 是 的 你 確 定 齁 好 我 想 就 很 清 楚 了 嘛 好 我 們 現 在 看\n\n27\n00:11:57,165 --> 00:12:17,172\n那 每 個 人 民 都 可 以 去 北 檢 案 您 告 發 嗎 ? 如 果 說 今 天 當 時 有 一 個 台 北 市 議 員 他 質 疑 陳 吉 仲 當 時 的 農 委 會 主 委 浪 費 公 帑 市 議 員 他 們 兩 個 去 告 發 他 獨 執 罪 你 們 會 怎 麼 處 理 ? 我 們 分 案 偵 辦 那 時 候 你 們 後 來 怎 麼 處 理 ? 這 就 是 本 案 來 講 你 們 怎 麼 處 理 ? 你 們 後 來 有 處 理 了 嗎 ?\n\n28\n00:12:25,471 --> 00:12:36,402\n今 天 社 會 大 眾 因 應 其 判 的 是 集 中 我 們 減 掉 的 力 量 透 過 我 們 修 法 加 重 詐 欺 的 行 則 後 你 們 去 幫 人 民 去 除 這 個 大 害\n\n29\n00:12:37,783 --> 00:12:57,592\n結 果 如 果 今 天 因 為 政 治 上 的 立 場 不 同 意 見 不 同 多 元 言 論 我 只 要 看 立 法 院 的 質 詢 我 認 為 那 個 官 員 在 回 答 我 立 場 相 同 的 官 員 的 質 詢 有 問 題 我 就 去 按 鈴 告 發 你 覺 得 會 不 會 造 成 我 們 檢 察 官 員 檢 察 官 的 疲 於 奔 命\n\n30\n00:13:00,273 --> 00:13:10,017\n我 們 受 理 告 發 依 法 偵 辦 這 是 我 們 的 義 務 喔 可 能 你 不 便 評 論 目 前 還 在 審 議 中 的 法 案 喔 我 們 看 一 下 喔\n\n31\n00:13:10,785 --> 00:13:32,194\n目 前 呢 , 藐 視 國 會 罪 呢 , 它 有 幾 個 版 本 。 有 翁 小 林 的 版 本 , 處 罰 對 象 是 官 員 。 如 果 是 一 四 一 條 之 一 跟 之 二 是 復 規 刑 的 版 本 , 它 的 處 罰 對 象 是 官 員 加 人 民 。 如 果 是 目 前 國 眾 的 在 修 正 供 應 是 官 員 。 行 為 的 樣 態 , 它 包 括 了 翁 版 , 包 括 其 他 藐 視 國 會 的 行 為 。 在 復 規 刑 版 , 包 括 了 反 質 詢 。 到 了 國 眾 版 的 在 修 正 動 議 僅 剩 聽 證 跟 質 詢 , 則 虛 偽 陳 述 。 刑 責 從 三 年 三 年 降 到 現 在 ,\n\n32\n00:13:37,156 --> 00:13:59,333\n主 席 說 的 一 年 其 實 沒 有 很 重 很 輕 的 行 為 你 覺 得 這 是 不 是 一 個 處 罰 對 象 跟 行 為 的 限 縮 就 這 樣 的 一 個 嚴 格 來 講 從 翁 版 副 版 到 再 修 正 版 是 不 是 一 個 限 縮 這 個 裡 面 的 內 容 不 是 我 只 是 說 從 官 員 處 罰 對 象 有 沒 有 限 縮 了 行 者 有 沒 有 行 為 上 有 沒 有 限 縮 了\n\n33\n00:14:01,198 --> 00:14:22,741\n是 不 一 樣 的 , 官 員 是 始 終 沒 有 改 變 。 然 後 呢 , 只 有 人 民 的 行 為 是 對 象 。 對 , 然 後 反 質 詢 , 反 質 詢 的 話 也 有 調 整 啦 。 每 個 人 看 法 都 不 是 很 一 致 。 是 , 所 以 現 在 限 縮 到 只 剩 在 立 法 院 執 行 新 法 當 中 , 就 要 增 加 的 聽 證 跟 原 本 有 的 質 詢 的 虛 偽 陳 述 , 是 不 是 這 樣 子 ? 是 。 好 , 那 我 們 來 往 下 看 齁 。\n\n34\n00:14:23,542 --> 00:14:47,678\n所 以 說 我 們 目 前 看 到 的 中 華 民 國 刑 法 第 五 章 五 至 一 章 五 章 之 一 一 四 一 之 條 之 一 一 四 一 之 條 之 二 的 在 修 正 動 議 呢 所 謂 的 說 所 以 就 其 所 知 之 重 要 關 係 事 項 為 序 位 之 陳 述 重 要 關 係 事 項 就 是 影 響 諮 詢 的 結 論 那 有 沒 有 不 重 要 的 剛 我 所 詢 問 你 認 為 國 會 議 員 在 詢 問 行 政 官 員 有 不 重 要 的 嗎 沒 有 沒 有 好\n\n35\n00:14:48,177 --> 00:15:13,910\n所 以 我 們 就 看 清 楚 今 天 我 藉 這 個 機 會 因 為 國 民 黨 主 控 的 司 法 法 制 委 員 會 不 給 委 員 有 不 同 的 意 見 不 同 的 討 論 所 以 我 們 被 迫 要 用 這 個 質 詢 的 方 式 來 就 明 天 即 將 做 二 讀 審 議 已 經 縮 回 到 因 為 民 眾 抗 議 縮 回 到 只 剩 一 事 一 條 之 一 的 再 修 正 動 議 的 內 容 我 們 來 給 大 家 看 一 個 訴 求 所 以 我 們 希 望 未 來\n\n36\n00:15:15,771 --> 00:15:26,146\n這 個 結 論 也 是 同 時 跟 主 席 報 告 我 們 希 望 未 來 能 夠 刪 除 藐 視 國 會 罪 就 是 再 修 正 的 退 回 重 審 所 有 的 法 案 退 回 到 司 法 法 制 委 員 會 重 新 審 議 以 上 謝 謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n293\t455\t並委員發言。謝謝。\n113295\t121325\t我跟你說因為我知道你們在想什麼那我覺得要我們就依照會議的順序來其實我是真的給他我真的本來我想說他在做檔案我真的剛剛在修好\n126600\t131383\t委員魯明哲等16人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．則不予審查��\n144161\t169840\t不是,那可以麻煩你們現在就...就...因為這個錯誤不能讓大家擔嘛,對不對?我覺得就麻煩您繼續好了齁。那不然你跟吳思瑤對調,你現在跟他聯絡一下,你跟吳思瑤對調。你現在跟他對調,對對對。不是,因為我跟你講,我都怎麼會不知道大家心裡在想什麼?\n170987\t177451\t我我我這個人我這個人不喜歡搞一些那個啦我比較喜歡大家就直球對決該怎麼樣的怎麼樣\n195748\t218104\t因為現在高委主席說我們兩個對調,可是我覺得我們兩個對調很不一樣。我現在說我的檔案,對我先講啦,我要先講說他不讓我有時間再做檔案啦,還是你要分,因為他擔心說你留在最後。不是啦,因為大家都在搞有的沒有的,我覺得沒意思,要嘛就依照順序啦,大家一切依照程序走。\n219409\t234030\t因為難免我們在跑場的時候有些錯誤我本來只想說讓大家休息我並沒有什麼其他意思但現在我的助理在努力的在彌補他不願意跟你換嗎他也沒辦法過來因為他知道我在他前面\n238984\t257713\t所以我跟你講我知道你們想要幹什麼所以我覺得我真的尊重每一個人的發言但是我知道在想什麼啊你不能因為你們這樣你想要整個大家都在等啊沒有我跟你講就麻煩你現在開始啦\n258800\t259743\t好麻煩你現在開始\n340134\t366754\t那個鍾委員你現在要開始了不然我開始計時了真的鍾委員你自己準備錯檔案的話這個不能不是我跟你講這已經差不多而且我跟你說我真的知道你們在想什麼啦我真的知道你們在想什麼所以可不可以麻煩你開始好不好那你們每次都玩這一套好啦那那個好謝謝接下來我們請鍾佳濱委員發言\n371144\t376476\t主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關所長官員會長公務夥伴那有請次長好謝謝麻煩次長委員好\n382316\t408366\t市長好,很遺憾,因為當然我的疏失,所以我代出了檔案,所以現在PowerPoint沒辦法呈現。待會他準備好了,我馬上再來。首先原請請教一下,今天的詐欺罪的修法是要解決詐欺猖獗的問題,是不是這樣?市長是。那所以呢我們把它加重嘛,從一年以上七年以下加重為三年以上十年以下,是不是這樣?市長是。那你認為我們這樣做有回應到人民的期待嗎?\n409492\t428289\t報告委員因為有些如果是就加重這個應該是符合人民的期待但是我要跟你說的說其實當人民表達他們希望加重的時候他們希望的不是關得久而是希望抓得到是不是這樣子是所以我們希望未來我們的檢警調的\n430148\t453006\t的精神可以多放一些在打擊詐欺你同意嗎同意好那這樣我們來看一下齁那請問一下詐欺罪是告訴乃論是不是要主動偵辦是非告訴乃論要主動偵辦嗎詐欺罪非告訴乃論對除非是親屬有一定的親屬關係好那你們要不要主動偵辦要好那目前齁我們一年有多少詐騙的案件你們偵查能量足夠嗎\n455592\t471972\t我們還是依法要偵辦案件當然很吃緊對我們現有的人力來講很吃緊所以如果這個時候我們在刑法上增加其他的罪責你覺得會不會讓我們的利多倍分檢警的能量利多倍分\n473171\t475092\t請問如果依照目前我們正在審議的藐視國會罪,他是不是非告訴乃論?\n501687\t525782\t依照目前包括 on 版跟副版在一四零之一跟一四一之一和一四一之二您所知道的情況你看到這個我現在秀出來了對不是高中來論不是高中來論是那如果檢察官看到這個藐視國會罪一旦入法一旦成立那麼國會的執行影片檢察官看到影片當中他是不是說他應該主動偵辦如果委員認為應詢的官員他們有\n530524\t543711\t觸及到藐視國會比如說拒不作答啦或者隱匿啦或者做虛偽的陳述啦你覺得檢察官會不會需要主動偵辦?既然那是刑法的非告訴乃論在公堂上公然的為之要不要去處理?\n544875\t573291\t報告委員照法律上來講非告出乃論之罪當然檢察官知道有犯罪嫌疑要主動偵辦所謂的犯罪嫌疑那是必須要集合很多的證據比如說光是這一個虛偽這個虛偽的部分的話檢察官不是當事人他不曉得當事人講的內容是不是真實那很多是不是構成犯罪嫌疑那還要再進一步去調取相關的資料\n574330\t599166\t當然啊在我們刑法上不予加重詐欺這些有沒有犯罪嫌疑檢察官有判斷的餘地但是在國會上面如果說今天我們未來民國眾兩黨他們說欸你看到內容喔公務員於立法院聽證或受質詢時就其所知之重要關係事項請問我們在立法院的質詢我們會質詢不重要的嗎\n600006\t613143\t委員會執行沒有關係的嗎?你覺得這裡面所設計的一個條件限制就其所知第一個就其所知他要知道第二個要有重要第三要有關係你認為就這樣的條文規定你有辦法看\n614970\t635575\t視頻質詢就知道說這個事情是在官員所知這個是不是國會質詢的重要這個是不是跟當天討論的案件有關你有沒有辦法判斷是所以我剛才跟委員特別報告不太可我們檢察官不太可能看影帶然後就就就因為你沒有辦法判斷沒有辦法判斷是不是他所知\n636355\t652245\t是不是重要也不能判斷跟國會的質詢有關係而且我們對於國會的尊重我們理論上來講會讓國會自己先去做決定說他有哪掌握某些資訊某些證據然後將來會可能要移送第九條正版\n653246\t677474\t所以我是覺得我們明顯看到目前此刻在明天的二讀會要進行審議的就是由我們目前的主席召委在委員會裡面不經討論不經審查就直接送到院會去還送過了修正動議再修正動議現在所僅存的一事一條之一它裡面對於所謂的刑法上的一些要件我們都沒有辦法明確判斷往下看\n678325\t686346\t好,誰可以提告訴?刑事訴訟法第二三二條,犯罪之被害人得為告訴。請問在剛剛的藐視國會罪當中,誰是犯罪的被害人?\n687150\t716397\t我那是應該是國家國家嗎那立法委員可不可以主張我自己的質詢權我質詢你我發現你藐視國會犯了刑法第11之二之一那我要求提起告訴可以向檢察官提起告訴嗎應該是告發可以可以告發任何人只要違反罪那個所以質詢的國會議員可以告發看影片的民眾可以告發看新聞的觀眾可以告發是這樣的意思嗎是的你確定齁好我想就很清楚了嘛好我們現在看\n717165\t737172\t那每個人民都可以去北檢案您告發嗎?如果說今天當時有一個台北市議員他質疑陳吉仲當時的農委會主委浪費公帑市議員他們兩個去告發他獨執罪你們會怎麼處理?我們分案偵辦那時候你們後來怎麼處理?這就是本案來講你們怎麼處理?你們後來有處理了嗎?\n745471\t756402\t今天社會大眾因應其判的是集中我們減掉的力量透過我們修法加重詐欺的行則後你們去幫人民去除這個大害\n757783\t777592\t結果如果今天因為政治上的立場不同意見不同多元言論我只要看立法院的質詢我認為那個官員在回答我立場相同的官員的質詢有問題我就去按鈴告發你覺得會不會造成我們檢察官員檢察官的疲於奔命\n780273\t790017\t我們受理告發依法偵辦這是我們的義務喔可能你不便評論目前還在審議中的法案喔我們看一下喔\n790785\t812194\t目前呢,藐視國會罪呢,它有幾個版本。有翁小林的版本,處罰對象是官員。如果是一四一條之一跟之二是復規刑的版本,它的處罰對象是官員加人民。如果是目前國眾的在修正供應是官員。行為的樣態,它包括了翁版,包括其他藐視國會的行為。在復規刑版,包括了反質詢。到了國眾版的在修正動議僅剩聽證跟質詢,則虛偽陳述。刑責從三年三年降到現在,\n817156\t839333\t主席說的一年其實沒有很重很輕的行為你覺得這是不是一個處罰對象跟行為的限縮就這樣的一個嚴格來講從翁版副版到再修正版是不是一個限縮這個裡面的內容不是我只是說從官員處罰對象有沒有限縮了行者有沒有行為上有沒有限縮了\n841198\t862741\t是不一樣的,官員是始終沒有改變。然後呢,只有人民的行為是對象。對,然後反質詢,反質詢的話也有調整啦。每個人看法都不是很一致。是,所以現在限縮到只剩在立法院執行新法當中,就要增加的聽證跟原本有的質詢的虛偽陳述,是不是這樣子?是。好,那我們來往下看齁。\n863542\t887678\t所以說我們目前看到的中華民國刑法第五章五至一章五章之一一四一之條之一一四一之條之二的在修正動議呢所謂的說所以就其所知之重要關係事項為序位之陳述重要關係事項就是影響諮詢的結論那有沒有不重要的剛我所詢問你認為國會議員在詢問行政官員有不重要的嗎沒有沒有好\n888177\t913910\t所以我們就看清楚今天我藉這個機會因為國民黨主控的司法法制委員會不給委員有不同的意見不同的討論所以我們被迫要用這個質詢的方式來就明天即將做二讀審議已經縮回到因為民眾抗議縮回到只剩一事一條之一的再修正動議的內容我們來給大家看一個訴求所以我們希望未來\n915771\t926146\t這個結論也是同時跟主席報告我們希望未來能夠刪除藐視國會罪就是再修正的退回重審所有的法案退回到司法法制委員會重新審議以上謝謝\n","txt":"並委員發言。謝謝。\n我跟你說因為我知道你們在想什麼那我覺得要我們就依照會議的順序來其實我是真的給他我真的本來我想說他在做檔案我真的剛剛在修好\n委員魯明哲等16人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．則不予審查��\n不是,那可以麻煩你們現在就...就...因為這個錯誤不能讓大家擔嘛,對不對?我覺得就麻煩您繼續好了齁。那不然你跟吳思瑤對調,你現在跟他聯絡一下,你跟吳思瑤對調。你現在跟他對調,對對對。不是,因為我跟你講,我都怎麼會不知道大家心裡在想什麼?\n我我我這個人我這個人不喜歡搞一些那個啦我比較喜歡大家就直球對決該怎麼樣的怎麼樣\n因為現在高委主席說我們兩個對調,可是我覺得我們兩個對調很不一樣。我現在說我的檔案,對我先講啦,我要先講說他不讓我有時間再做檔案啦,還是你要分,因為他擔心說你留在最後。不是啦,因為大家都在搞有的沒有的,我覺得沒意思,要嘛就依照順序啦,大家一切依照程序走。\n因為難免我們在跑場的時候有些錯誤我本來只想說讓大家休息我並沒有什麼其他意思但現在我的助理在努力的在彌補他不願意跟你換嗎他也沒辦法過來因為他知道我在他前面\n所以我跟你講我知道你們想要幹什麼所以我覺得我真的尊重每一個人的發言但是我知道在想什麼啊你不能因為你們這樣你想要整個大家都在等啊沒有我跟你講就麻煩你現在開始啦\n好麻煩你現在開始\n那個鍾委員你現在要開始了不然我開始計時了真的鍾委員你自己準備錯檔案的話這個不能不是我跟你講這已經差不多而且我跟你說我真的知道你們在想什麼啦我真的知道你們在想什麼所以可不可以麻煩你開始好不好那你們每次都玩這一套好啦那那個好謝謝接下來我們請鍾佳濱委員發言\n主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關所長官員會長公務夥伴那有請次長好謝謝麻煩次長委員好\n市長好,很遺憾,因為當然我的疏失,所以我代出了檔案,所以現在PowerPoint沒辦法呈現。待會他準備好了,我馬上再來。首先原請請教一下,今天的詐欺罪的修法是要解決詐欺猖獗的問題,是不是這樣?市長是。那所以呢我們把它加重嘛,從一年以上七年以下加重為三年以上十年以下,是不是這樣?市長是。那你認為我們這樣做有回應到人民的期待嗎?\n報告委員因為有些如果是就加重這個應該是符合人民的期待但是我要跟你說的說其實當人民表達他們希望加重的時候他們希望的不是關得久而是希望抓得到是不是這樣子是所以我們希望未來我們的檢警調的\n的精神可以多放一些在打擊詐欺你同意嗎同意好那這樣我們來看一下齁那請問一下詐欺罪是告訴乃論是不是要主動偵辦是非告訴乃論要主動偵辦嗎詐欺罪非告訴乃論對除非是親屬有一定的親屬關係好那你們要不要主動偵辦要好那目前齁我們一年有多少詐騙的案件你們偵查能量足夠嗎\n我們還是依法要偵辦案件當然很吃緊對我們現有的人力來講很吃緊所以如果這個時候我們在刑法上增加其他的罪責你覺得會不會讓我們的利多倍分檢警的能量利多倍分\n請問如果依照目前我們正在審議的藐視國會罪,他是不是非告訴乃論?\n依照目前包括 on 版跟副版在一四零之一跟一四一之一和一四一之二您所知道的情況你看到這個我現在秀出來了對不是高中來論不是高中來論是那如果檢察官看到這個藐視國會罪一旦入法一旦成立那麼國會的執行影片檢察官看到影片當中他是不是說他應該主動偵辦如果委員認為應詢的官員他們有\n觸及到藐視國會比如說拒不作答啦或者隱匿啦或者做虛偽的陳述啦你覺得檢察官會不會需要主動偵辦?既然那是刑法的非告訴乃論在公堂上公然的為之要不要去處理?\n報告委員照法律上來講非告出乃論之罪當然檢察官知道有犯罪嫌疑要主動偵辦所謂的犯罪嫌疑那是必須要集合很多的證據比如說光是這一個虛偽這個虛偽的部分的話檢察官不是當事人他不曉得當事人講的內容是不是真實那很多是不是構成犯罪嫌疑那還要再進一步去調取相關的資料\n當然啊在我們刑法上不予加重詐欺這些有沒有犯罪嫌疑檢察官有判斷的餘地但是在國會上面如果說今天我們未來民國眾兩黨他們說欸你看到內容喔公務員於立法院聽證或受質詢時就其所知之重要關係事項請問我們在立法院的質詢我們會質詢不重要的嗎\n委員會執行沒有關係的嗎?你覺得這裡面所設計的一個條件限制就其所知第一個就其所知他要知道第二個要有重要第三要有關係你認為就這樣的條文規定你有辦法看\n視頻質詢就知道說這個事情是在官員所知這個是不是國會質詢的重要這個是不是跟當天討論的案件有關你有沒有辦法判斷是所以我剛才跟委員特別報告不太可我們檢察官不太可能看影帶然後就就就因為你沒有辦法判斷沒有辦法判斷是不是他所知\n是不是重要也不能判斷跟國會的質詢有關係而且我們對於國會的尊重我們理論上來講會讓國會自己先去做決定說他有哪掌握某些資訊某些證據然後將來會可能要移送第九條正版\n所以我是覺得我們明顯看到目前此刻在明天的二讀會要進行審議的就是由我們目前的主席召委在委員會裡面不經討論不經審查就直接送到院會去還送過了修正動議再修正動議現在所僅存的一事一條之一它裡面對於所謂的刑法上的一些要件我們都沒有辦法明確判斷往下看\n好,誰可以提告訴?刑事訴訟法第二三二條,犯罪之被害人得為告訴。請問在剛剛的藐視國會罪當中,誰是犯罪的被害人?\n我那是應該是國家國家嗎那立法委員可不可以主張我自己的質詢權我質詢你我發現你藐視國會犯了刑法第11之二之一那我要求提起告訴可以向檢察官提起告訴嗎應該是告發可以可以告發任何人只要違反罪那個所以質詢的國會議員可以告發看影片的民眾可以告發看新聞的觀眾可以告發是這樣的意思嗎是的你確定齁好我想就很清楚了嘛好我們現在看\n那每個人民都可以去北檢案您告發嗎?如果說今天當時有一個台北市議員他質疑陳吉仲當時的農委會主委浪費公帑市議員他們兩個去告發他獨執罪你們會怎麼處理?我們分案偵辦那時候你們後來怎麼處理?這就是本案來講你們怎麼處理?你們後來有處理了嗎?\n今天社會大眾因應其判的是集中我們減掉的力量透過我們修法加重詐欺的行則後你們去幫人民去除這個大害\n結果如果今天因為政治上的立場不同意見不同多元言論我只要看立法院的質詢我認為那個官員在回答我立場相同的官員的質詢有問題我就去按鈴告發你覺得會不會造成我們檢察官員檢察官的疲於奔命\n我們受理告發依法偵辦這是我們的義務喔可能你不便評論目前還在審議中的法案喔我們看一下喔\n目前呢,藐視國會罪呢,它有幾個版本。有翁小林的版本,處罰對象是官員。如果是一四一條之一跟之二是復規刑的版本,它的處罰對象是官員加人民。如果是目前國眾的在修正供應是官員。行為的樣態,它包括了翁版,包括其他藐視國會的行為。在復規刑版,包括了反質詢。到了國眾版的在修正動議僅剩聽證跟質詢,則虛偽陳述。刑責從三年三年降到現在,\n主席說的一年其實沒有很重很輕的行為你覺得這是不是一個處罰對象跟行為的限縮就這樣的一個嚴格來講從翁版副版到再修正版是不是一個限縮這個裡面的內容不是我只是說從官員處罰對象有沒有限縮了行者有沒有行為上有沒有限縮了\n是不一樣的,官員是始終沒有改變。然後呢,只有人民的行為是對象。對,然後反質詢,反質詢的話也有調整啦。每個人看法都不是很一致。是,所以現在限縮到只剩在立法院執行新法當中,就要增加的聽證跟原本有的質詢的虛偽陳述,是不是這樣子?是。好,那我們來往下看齁。\n所以說我們目前看到的中華民國刑法第五章五至一章五章之一一四一之條之一一四一之條之二的在修正動議呢所謂的說所以就其所知之重要關係事項為序位之陳述重要關係事項就是影響諮詢的結論那有沒有不重要的剛我所詢問你認為國會議員在詢問行政官員有不重要的嗎沒有沒有好\n所以我們就看清楚今天我藉這個機會因為國民黨主控的司法法制委員會不給委員有不同的意見不同的討論所以我們被迫要用這個質詢的方式來就明天即將做二讀審議已經縮回到因為民眾抗議縮回到只剩一事一條之一的再修正動議的內容我們來給大家看一個訴求所以我們希望未來\n這個結論也是同時跟主席報告我們希望未來能夠刪除藐視國會罪就是再修正的退回重審所有的法案退回到司法法制委員會重新審議以上謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.293 --> 00:00.455\n並 委 員 發 言 。 謝 謝 。\n\n01:53.295 --> 02:01.325\n我 跟 你 說 因 為 我 知 道 你 們 在 想 什 麼 那 我 覺 得 要 我 們 就 依 照 會 議 的 順 序 來 其 實 我 是 真 的 給 他 我 真 的 本 來 我 想 說 他 在 做 檔 案 我 真 的 剛 剛 在 修 好\n\n02:06.600 --> 02:11.383\n委 員 魯 明 哲 等 1 6 人 擬 具 : 「 中 華 民 國 刑 法 第 三 百 三 十 九 條 之 四 條 文 修 正 草 案 ． 則 不 予 審 查 � �\n\n02:24.161 --> 02:49.840\n不 是 , 那 可 以 麻 煩 你 們 現 在 就 . . . 就 . . . 因 為 這 個 錯 誤 不 能 讓 大 家 擔 嘛 , 對 不 對 ? 我 覺 得 就 麻 煩 您 繼 續 好 了 齁 。 那 不 然 你 跟 吳 思 瑤 對 調 , 你 現 在 跟 他 聯 絡 一 下 , 你 跟 吳 思 瑤 對 調 。 你 現 在 跟 他 對 調 , 對 對 對 。 不 是 , 因 為 我 跟 你 講 , 我 都 怎 麼 會 不 知 道 大 家 心 裡 在 想 什 麼 ?\n\n02:50.987 --> 02:57.451\n我 我 我 這 個 人 我 這 個 人 不 喜 歡 搞 一 些 那 個 啦 我 比 較 喜 歡 大 家 就 直 球 對 決 該 怎 麼 樣 的 怎 麼 樣\n\n03:15.748 --> 03:38.104\n因 為 現 在 高 委 主 席 說 我 們 兩 個 對 調 , 可 是 我 覺 得 我 們 兩 個 對 調 很 不 一 樣 。 我 現 在 說 我 的 檔 案 , 對 我 先 講 啦 , 我 要 先 講 說 他 不 讓 我 有 時 間 再 做 檔 案 啦 , 還 是 你 要 分 , 因 為 他 擔 心 說 你 留 在 最 後 。 不 是 啦 , 因 為 大 家 都 在 搞 有 的 沒 有 的 , 我 覺 得 沒 意 思 , 要 嘛 就 依 照 順 序 啦 , 大 家 一 切 依 照 程 序 走 。\n\n03:39.409 --> 03:54.030\n因 為 難 免 我 們 在 跑 場 的 時 候 有 些 錯 誤 我 本 來 只 想 說 讓 大 家 休 息 我 並 沒 有 什 麼 其 他 意 思 但 現 在 我 的 助 理 在 努 力 的 在 彌 補 他 不 願 意 跟 你 換 嗎 他 也 沒 辦 法 過 來 因 為 他 知 道 我 在 他 前 面\n\n03:58.984 --> 04:17.713\n所 以 我 跟 你 講 我 知 道 你 們 想 要 幹 什 麼 所 以 我 覺 得 我 真 的 尊 重 每 一 個 人 的 發 言 但 是 我 知 道 在 想 什 麼 啊 你 不 能 因 為 你 們 這 樣 你 想 要 整 個 大 家 都 在 等 啊 沒 有 我 跟 你 講 就 麻 煩 你 現 在 開 始 啦\n\n04:18.800 --> 04:19.743\n好 麻 煩 你 現 在 開 始\n\n05:40.134 --> 06:06.754\n那 個 鍾 委 員 你 現 在 要 開 始 了 不 然 我 開 始 計 時 了 真 的 鍾 委 員 你 自 己 準 備 錯 檔 案 的 話 這 個 不 能 不 是 我 跟 你 講 這 已 經 差 不 多 而 且 我 跟 你 說 我 真 的 知 道 你 們 在 想 什 麼 啦 我 真 的 知 道 你 們 在 想 什 麼 所 以 可 不 可 以 麻 煩 你 開 始 好 不 好 那 你 們 每 次 都 玩 這 一 套 好 啦 那 那 個 好 謝 謝 接 下 來 我 們 請 鍾 佳 濱 委 員 發 言\n\n06:11.144 --> 06:16.476\n主 席 在 場 的 委 員 先 進 列 席 的 政 府 機 關 所 長 官 員 會 長 公 務 夥 伴 那 有 請 次 長 好 謝 謝 麻 煩 次 長 委 員 好\n\n06:22.316 --> 06:48.366\n市 長 好 , 很 遺 憾 , 因 為 當 然 我 的 疏 失 , 所 以 我 代 出 了 檔 案 , 所 以 現 在 P o w e r P o i n t 沒 辦 法 呈 現 。 待 會 他 準 備 好 了 , 我 馬 上 再 來 。 首 先 原 請 請 教 一 下 , 今 天 的 詐 欺 罪 的 修 法 是 要 解 決 詐 欺 猖 獗 的 問 題 , 是 不 是 這 樣 ? 市 長 是 。 那 所 以 呢 我 們 把 它 加 重 嘛 , 從 一 年 以 上 七 年 以 下 加 重 為 三 年 以 上 十 年 以 下 , 是 不 是 這 樣 ? 市 長 是 。 那 你 認 為 我 們 這 樣 做 有 回 應 到 人 民 的 期 待 嗎 ?\n\n06:49.492 --> 07:08.289\n報 告 委 員 因 為 有 些 如 果 是 就 加 重 這 個 應 該 是 符 合 人 民 的 期 待 但 是 我 要 跟 你 說 的 說 其 實 當 人 民 表 達 他 們 希 望 加 重 的 時 候 他 們 希 望 的 不 是 關 得 久 而 是 希 望 抓 得 到 是 不 是 這 樣 子 是 所 以 我 們 希 望 未 來 我 們 的 檢 警 調 的\n\n07:10.148 --> 07:33.006\n的 精 神 可 以 多 放 一 些 在 打 擊 詐 欺 你 同 意 嗎 同 意 好 那 這 樣 我 們 來 看 一 下 齁 那 請 問 一 下 詐 欺 罪 是 告 訴 乃 論 是 不 是 要 主 動 偵 辦 是 非 告 訴 乃 論 要 主 動 偵 辦 嗎 詐 欺 罪 非 告 訴 乃 論 對 除 非 是 親 屬 有 一 定 的 親 屬 關 係 好 那 你 們 要 不 要 主 動 偵 辦 要 好 那 目 前 齁 我 們 一 年 有 多 少 詐 騙 的 案 件 你 們 偵 查 能 量 足 夠 嗎\n\n07:35.592 --> 07:51.972\n我 們 還 是 依 法 要 偵 辦 案 件 當 然 很 吃 緊 對 我 們 現 有 的 人 力 來 講 很 吃 緊 所 以 如 果 這 個 時 候 我 們 在 刑 法 上 增 加 其 他 的 罪 責 你 覺 得 會 不 會 讓 我 們 的 利 多 倍 分 檢 警 的 能 量 利 多 倍 分\n\n07:53.171 --> 07:55.092\n請 問 如 果 依 照 目 前 我 們 正 在 審 議 的 藐 視 國 會 罪 , 他 是 不 是 非 告 訴 乃 論 ?\n\n08:21.687 --> 08:45.782\n依 照 目 前 包 括 o n 版 跟 副 版 在 一 四 零 之 一 跟 一 四 一 之 一 和 一 四 一 之 二 您 所 知 道 的 情 況 你 看 到 這 個 我 現 在 秀 出 來 了 對 不 是 高 中 來 論 不 是 高 中 來 論 是 那 如 果 檢 察 官 看 到 這 個 藐 視 國 會 罪 一 旦 入 法 一 旦 成 立 那 麼 國 會 的 執 行 影 片 檢 察 官 看 到 影 片 當 中 他 是 不 是 說 他 應 該 主 動 偵 辦 如 果 委 員 認 為 應 詢 的 官 員 他 們 有\n\n08:50.524 --> 09:03.711\n觸 及 到 藐 視 國 會 比 如 說 拒 不 作 答 啦 或 者 隱 匿 啦 或 者 做 虛 偽 的 陳 述 啦 你 覺 得 檢 察 官 會 不 會 需 要 主 動 偵 辦 ? 既 然 那 是 刑 法 的 非 告 訴 乃 論 在 公 堂 上 公 然 的 為 之 要 不 要 去 處 理 ?\n\n09:04.875 --> 09:33.291\n報 告 委 員 照 法 律 上 來 講 非 告 出 乃 論 之 罪 當 然 檢 察 官 知 道 有 犯 罪 嫌 疑 要 主 動 偵 辦 所 謂 的 犯 罪 嫌 疑 那 是 必 須 要 集 合 很 多 的 證 據 比 如 說 光 是 這 一 個 虛 偽 這 個 虛 偽 的 部 分 的 話 檢 察 官 不 是 當 事 人 他 不 曉 得 當 事 人 講 的 內 容 是 不 是 真 實 那 很 多 是 不 是 構 成 犯 罪 嫌 疑 那 還 要 再 進 一 步 去 調 取 相 關 的 資 料\n\n09:34.330 --> 09:59.166\n當 然 啊 在 我 們 刑 法 上 不 予 加 重 詐 欺 這 些 有 沒 有 犯 罪 嫌 疑 檢 察 官 有 判 斷 的 餘 地 但 是 在 國 會 上 面 如 果 說 今 天 我 們 未 來 民 國 眾 兩 黨 他 們 說 欸 你 看 到 內 容 喔 公 務 員 於 立 法 院 聽 證 或 受 質 詢 時 就 其 所 知 之 重 要 關 係 事 項 請 問 我 們 在 立 法 院 的 質 詢 我 們 會 質 詢 不 重 要 的 嗎\n\n10:00.006 --> 10:13.143\n委 員 會 執 行 沒 有 關 係 的 嗎 ? 你 覺 得 這 裡 面 所 設 計 的 一 個 條 件 限 制 就 其 所 知 第 一 個 就 其 所 知 他 要 知 道 第 二 個 要 有 重 要 第 三 要 有 關 係 你 認 為 就 這 樣 的 條 文 規 定 你 有 辦 法 看\n\n10:14.970 --> 10:35.575\n視 頻 質 詢 就 知 道 說 這 個 事 情 是 在 官 員 所 知 這 個 是 不 是 國 會 質 詢 的 重 要 這 個 是 不 是 跟 當 天 討 論 的 案 件 有 關 你 有 沒 有 辦 法 判 斷 是 所 以 我 剛 才 跟 委 員 特 別 報 告 不 太 可 我 們 檢 察 官 不 太 可 能 看 影 帶 然 後 就 就 就 因 為 你 沒 有 辦 法 判 斷 沒 有 辦 法 判 斷 是 不 是 他 所 知\n\n10:36.355 --> 10:52.245\n是 不 是 重 要 也 不 能 判 斷 跟 國 會 的 質 詢 有 關 係 而 且 我 們 對 於 國 會 的 尊 重 我 們 理 論 上 來 講 會 讓 國 會 自 己 先 去 做 決 定 說 他 有 哪 掌 握 某 些 資 訊 某 些 證 據 然 後 將 來 會 可 能 要 移 送 第 九 條 正 版\n\n10:53.246 --> 11:17.474\n所 以 我 是 覺 得 我 們 明 顯 看 到 目 前 此 刻 在 明 天 的 二 讀 會 要 進 行 審 議 的 就 是 由 我 們 目 前 的 主 席 召 委 在 委 員 會 裡 面 不 經 討 論 不 經 審 查 就 直 接 送 到 院 會 去 還 送 過 了 修 正 動 議 再 修 正 動 議 現 在 所 僅 存 的 一 事 一 條 之 一 它 裡 面 對 於 所 謂 的 刑 法 上 的 一 些 要 件 我 們 都 沒 有 辦 法 明 確 判 斷 往 下 看\n\n11:18.325 --> 11:26.346\n好 , 誰 可 以 提 告 訴 ? 刑 事 訴 訟 法 第 二 三 二 條 , 犯 罪 之 被 害 人 得 為 告 訴 。 請 問 在 剛 剛 的 藐 視 國 會 罪 當 中 , 誰 是 犯 罪 的 被 害 人 ?\n\n11:27.150 --> 11:56.397\n我 那 是 應 該 是 國 家 國 家 嗎 那 立 法 委 員 可 不 可 以 主 張 我 自 己 的 質 詢 權 我 質 詢 你 我 發 現 你 藐 視 國 會 犯 了 刑 法 第 1 1 之 二 之 一 那 我 要 求 提 起 告 訴 可 以 向 檢 察 官 提 起 告 訴 嗎 應 該 是 告 發 可 以 可 以 告 發 任 何 人 只 要 違 反 罪 那 個 所 以 質 詢 的 國 會 議 員 可 以 告 發 看 影 片 的 民 眾 可 以 告 發 看 新 聞 的 觀 眾 可 以 告 發 是 這 樣 的 意 思 嗎 是 的 你 確 定 齁 好 我 想 就 很 清 楚 了 嘛 好 我 們 現 在 看\n\n11:57.165 --> 12:17.172\n那 每 個 人 民 都 可 以 去 北 檢 案 您 告 發 嗎 ? 如 果 說 今 天 當 時 有 一 個 台 北 市 議 員 他 質 疑 陳 吉 仲 當 時 的 農 委 會 主 委 浪 費 公 帑 市 議 員 他 們 兩 個 去 告 發 他 獨 執 罪 你 們 會 怎 麼 處 理 ? 我 們 分 案 偵 辦 那 時 候 你 們 後 來 怎 麼 處 理 ? 這 就 是 本 案 來 講 你 們 怎 麼 處 理 ? 你 們 後 來 有 處 理 了 嗎 ?\n\n12:25.471 --> 12:36.402\n今 天 社 會 大 眾 因 應 其 判 的 是 集 中 我 們 減 掉 的 力 量 透 過 我 們 修 法 加 重 詐 欺 的 行 則 後 你 們 去 幫 人 民 去 除 這 個 大 害\n\n12:37.783 --> 12:57.592\n結 果 如 果 今 天 因 為 政 治 上 的 立 場 不 同 意 見 不 同 多 元 言 論 我 只 要 看 立 法 院 的 質 詢 我 認 為 那 個 官 員 在 回 答 我 立 場 相 同 的 官 員 的 質 詢 有 問 題 我 就 去 按 鈴 告 發 你 覺 得 會 不 會 造 成 我 們 檢 察 官 員 檢 察 官 的 疲 於 奔 命\n\n13:00.273 --> 13:10.017\n我 們 受 理 告 發 依 法 偵 辦 這 是 我 們 的 義 務 喔 可 能 你 不 便 評 論 目 前 還 在 審 議 中 的 法 案 喔 我 們 看 一 下 喔\n\n13:10.785 --> 13:32.194\n目 前 呢 , 藐 視 國 會 罪 呢 , 它 有 幾 個 版 本 。 有 翁 小 林 的 版 本 , 處 罰 對 象 是 官 員 。 如 果 是 一 四 一 條 之 一 跟 之 二 是 復 規 刑 的 版 本 , 它 的 處 罰 對 象 是 官 員 加 人 民 。 如 果 是 目 前 國 眾 的 在 修 正 供 應 是 官 員 。 行 為 的 樣 態 , 它 包 括 了 翁 版 , 包 括 其 他 藐 視 國 會 的 行 為 。 在 復 規 刑 版 , 包 括 了 反 質 詢 。 到 了 國 眾 版 的 在 修 正 動 議 僅 剩 聽 證 跟 質 詢 , 則 虛 偽 陳 述 。 刑 責 從 三 年 三 年 降 到 現 在 ,\n\n13:37.156 --> 13:59.333\n主 席 說 的 一 年 其 實 沒 有 很 重 很 輕 的 行 為 你 覺 得 這 是 不 是 一 個 處 罰 對 象 跟 行 為 的 限 縮 就 這 樣 的 一 個 嚴 格 來 講 從 翁 版 副 版 到 再 修 正 版 是 不 是 一 個 限 縮 這 個 裡 面 的 內 容 不 是 我 只 是 說 從 官 員 處 罰 對 象 有 沒 有 限 縮 了 行 者 有 沒 有 行 為 上 有 沒 有 限 縮 了\n\n14:01.198 --> 14:22.741\n是 不 一 樣 的 , 官 員 是 始 終 沒 有 改 變 。 然 後 呢 , 只 有 人 民 的 行 為 是 對 象 。 對 , 然 後 反 質 詢 , 反 質 詢 的 話 也 有 調 整 啦 。 每 個 人 看 法 都 不 是 很 一 致 。 是 , 所 以 現 在 限 縮 到 只 剩 在 立 法 院 執 行 新 法 當 中 , 就 要 增 加 的 聽 證 跟 原 本 有 的 質 詢 的 虛 偽 陳 述 , 是 不 是 這 樣 子 ? 是 。 好 , 那 我 們 來 往 下 看 齁 。\n\n14:23.542 --> 14:47.678\n所 以 說 我 們 目 前 看 到 的 中 華 民 國 刑 法 第 五 章 五 至 一 章 五 章 之 一 一 四 一 之 條 之 一 一 四 一 之 條 之 二 的 在 修 正 動 議 呢 所 謂 的 說 所 以 就 其 所 知 之 重 要 關 係 事 項 為 序 位 之 陳 述 重 要 關 係 事 項 就 是 影 響 諮 詢 的 結 論 那 有 沒 有 不 重 要 的 剛 我 所 詢 問 你 認 為 國 會 議 員 在 詢 問 行 政 官 員 有 不 重 要 的 嗎 沒 有 沒 有 好\n\n14:48.177 --> 15:13.910\n所 以 我 們 就 看 清 楚 今 天 我 藉 這 個 機 會 因 為 國 民 黨 主 控 的 司 法 法 制 委 員 會 不 給 委 員 有 不 同 的 意 見 不 同 的 討 論 所 以 我 們 被 迫 要 用 這 個 質 詢 的 方 式 來 就 明 天 即 將 做 二 讀 審 議 已 經 縮 回 到 因 為 民 眾 抗 議 縮 回 到 只 剩 一 事 一 條 之 一 的 再 修 正 動 議 的 內 容 我 們 來 給 大 家 看 一 個 訴 求 所 以 我 們 希 望 未 來\n\n15:15.771 --> 15:26.146\n這 個 結 論 也 是 同 時 跟 主 席 報 告 我 們 希 望 未 來 能 夠 刪 除 藐 視 國 會 罪 就 是 再 修 正 的 退 回 重 審 所 有 的 法 案 退 回 到 司 法 法 制 委 員 會 重 新 審 議 以 上 謝 謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.293,"end":0.455,"text":"並委員發言。謝謝。"},{"start":113.295,"end":121.325,"text":"我跟你說因為我知道你們在想什麼那我覺得要我們就依照會議的順序來其實我是真的給他我真的本來我想說他在做檔案我真的剛剛在修好"},{"start":126.6,"end":131.383,"text":"委員魯明哲等16人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．則不予審查��"},{"start":144.161,"end":169.84,"text":"不是,那可以麻煩你們現在就...就...因為這個錯誤不能讓大家擔嘛,對不對?我覺得就麻煩您繼續好了齁。那不然你跟吳思瑤對調,你現在跟他聯絡一下,你跟吳思瑤對調。你現在跟他對調,對對對。不是,因為我跟你講,我都怎麼會不知道大家心裡在想什麼?"},{"start":170.987,"end":177.451,"text":"我我我這個人我這個人不喜歡搞一些那個啦我比較喜歡大家就直球對決該怎麼樣的怎麼樣"},{"start":195.748,"end":218.104,"text":"因為現在高委主席說我們兩個對調,可是我覺得我們兩個對調很不一樣。我現在說我的檔案,對我先講啦,我要先講說他不讓我有時間再做檔案啦,還是你要分,因為他擔心說你留在最後。不是啦,因為大家都在搞有的沒有的,我覺得沒意思,要嘛就依照順序啦,大家一切依照程序走。"},{"start":219.409,"end":234.03,"text":"因為難免我們在跑場的時候有些錯誤我本來只想說讓大家休息我並沒有什麼其他意思但現在我的助理在努力的在彌補他不願意跟你換嗎他也沒辦法過來因為他知道我在他前面"},{"start":238.984,"end":257.713,"text":"所以我跟你講我知道你們想要幹什麼所以我覺得我真的尊重每一個人的發言但是我知道在想什麼啊你不能因為你們這樣你想要整個大家都在等啊沒有我跟你講就麻煩你現在開始啦"},{"start":258.8,"end":259.743,"text":"好麻煩你現在開始"},{"start":340.134,"end":366.754,"text":"那個鍾委員你現在要開始了不然我開始計時了真的鍾委員你自己準備錯檔案的話這個不能不是我跟你講這已經差不多而且我跟你說我真的知道你們在想什麼啦我真的知道你們在想什麼所以可不可以麻煩你開始好不好那你們每次都玩這一套好啦那那個好謝謝接下來我們請鍾佳濱委員發言"},{"start":371.144,"end":376.476,"text":"主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關所長官員會長公務夥伴那有請次長好謝謝麻煩次長委員好"},{"start":382.316,"end":408.366,"text":"市長好,很遺憾,因為當然我的疏失,所以我代出了檔案,所以現在PowerPoint沒辦法呈現。待會他準備好了,我馬上再來。首先原請請教一下,今天的詐欺罪的修法是要解決詐欺猖獗的問題,是不是這樣?市長是。那所以呢我們把它加重嘛,從一年以上七年以下加重為三年以上十年以下,是不是這樣?市長是。那你認為我們這樣做有回應到人民的期待嗎?"},{"start":409.492,"end":428.289,"text":"報告委員因為有些如果是就加重這個應該是符合人民的期待但是我要跟你說的說其實當人民表達他們希望加重的時候他們希望的不是關得久而是希望抓得到是不是這樣子是所以我們希望未來我們的檢警調的"},{"start":430.148,"end":453.006,"text":"的精神可以多放一些在打擊詐欺你同意嗎同意好那這樣我們來看一下齁那請問一下詐欺罪是告訴乃論是不是要主動偵辦是非告訴乃論要主動偵辦嗎詐欺罪非告訴乃論對除非是親屬有一定的親屬關係好那你們要不要主動偵辦要好那目前齁我們一年有多少詐騙的案件你們偵查能量足夠嗎"},{"start":455.592,"end":471.972,"text":"我們還是依法要偵辦案件當然很吃緊對我們現有的人力來講很吃緊所以如果這個時候我們在刑法上增加其他的罪責你覺得會不會讓我們的利多倍分檢警的能量利多倍分"},{"start":473.171,"end":475.092,"text":"請問如果依照目前我們正在審議的藐視國會罪,他是不是非告訴乃論?"},{"start":501.687,"end":525.782,"text":"依照目前包括 on 版跟副版在一四零之一跟一四一之一和一四一之二您所知道的情況你看到這個我現在秀出來了對不是高中來論不是高中來論是那如果檢察官看到這個藐視國會罪一旦入法一旦成立那麼國會的執行影片檢察官看到影片當中他是不是說他應該主動偵辦如果委員認為應詢的官員他們有"},{"start":530.524,"end":543.711,"text":"觸及到藐視國會比如說拒不作答啦或者隱匿啦或者做虛偽的陳述啦你覺得檢察官會不會需要主動偵辦?既然那是刑法的非告訴乃論在公堂上公然的為之要不要去處理?"},{"start":544.875,"end":573.291,"text":"報告委員照法律上來講非告出乃論之罪當然檢察官知道有犯罪嫌疑要主動偵辦所謂的犯罪嫌疑那是必須要集合很多的證據比如說光是這一個虛偽這個虛偽的部分的話檢察官不是當事人他不曉得當事人講的內容是不是真實那很多是不是構成犯罪嫌疑那還要再進一步去調取相關的資料"},{"start":574.33,"end":599.166,"text":"當然啊在我們刑法上不予加重詐欺這些有沒有犯罪嫌疑檢察官有判斷的餘地但是在國會上面如果說今天我們未來民國眾兩黨他們說欸你看到內容喔公務員於立法院聽證或受質詢時就其所知之重要關係事項請問我們在立法院的質詢我們會質詢不重要的嗎"},{"start":600.006,"end":613.143,"text":"委員會執行沒有關係的嗎?你覺得這裡面所設計的一個條件限制就其所知第一個就其所知他要知道第二個要有重要第三要有關係你認為就這樣的條文規定你有辦法看"},{"start":614.97,"end":635.575,"text":"視頻質詢就知道說這個事情是在官員所知這個是不是國會質詢的重要這個是不是跟當天討論的案件有關你有沒有辦法判斷是所以我剛才跟委員特別報告不太可我們檢察官不太可能看影帶然後就就就因為你沒有辦法判斷沒有辦法判斷是不是他所知"},{"start":636.355,"end":652.245,"text":"是不是重要也不能判斷跟國會的質詢有關係而且我們對於國會的尊重我們理論上來講會讓國會自己先去做決定說他有哪掌握某些資訊某些證據然後將來會可能要移送第九條正版"},{"start":653.246,"end":677.474,"text":"所以我是覺得我們明顯看到目前此刻在明天的二讀會要進行審議的就是由我們目前的主席召委在委員會裡面不經討論不經審查就直接送到院會去還送過了修正動議再修正動議現在所僅存的一事一條之一它裡面對於所謂的刑法上的一些要件我們都沒有辦法明確判斷往下看"},{"start":678.325,"end":686.346,"text":"好,誰可以提告訴?刑事訴訟法第二三二條,犯罪之被害人得為告訴。請問在剛剛的藐視國會罪當中,誰是犯罪的被害人?"},{"start":687.15,"end":716.397,"text":"我那是應該是國家國家嗎那立法委員可不可以主張我自己的質詢權我質詢你我發現你藐視國會犯了刑法第11之二之一那我要求提起告訴可以向檢察官提起告訴嗎應該是告發可以可以告發任何人只要違反罪那個所以質詢的國會議員可以告發看影片的民眾可以告發看新聞的觀眾可以告發是這樣的意思嗎是的你確定齁好我想就很清楚了嘛好我們現在看"},{"start":717.165,"end":737.172,"text":"那每個人民都可以去北檢案您告發嗎?如果說今天當時有一個台北市議員他質疑陳吉仲當時的農委會主委浪費公帑市議員他們兩個去告發他獨執罪你們會怎麼處理?我們分案偵辦那時候你們後來怎麼處理?這就是本案來講你們怎麼處理?你們後來有處理了嗎?"},{"start":745.471,"end":756.402,"text":"今天社會大眾因應其判的是集中我們減掉的力量透過我們修法加重詐欺的行則後你們去幫人民去除這個大害"},{"start":757.783,"end":777.592,"text":"結果如果今天因為政治上的立場不同意見不同多元言論我只要看立法院的質詢我認為那個官員在回答我立場相同的官員的質詢有問題我就去按鈴告發你覺得會不會造成我們檢察官員檢察官的疲於奔命"},{"start":780.273,"end":790.017,"text":"我們受理告發依法偵辦這是我們的義務喔可能你不便評論目前還在審議中的法案喔我們看一下喔"},{"start":790.785,"end":812.194,"text":"目前呢,藐視國會罪呢,它有幾個版本。有翁小林的版本,處罰對象是官員。如果是一四一條之一跟之二是復規刑的版本,它的處罰對象是官員加人民。如果是目前國眾的在修正供應是官員。行為的樣態,它包括了翁版,包括其他藐視國會的行為。在復規刑版,包括了反質詢。到了國眾版的在修正動議僅剩聽證跟質詢,則虛偽陳述。刑責從三年三年降到現在,"},{"start":817.156,"end":839.333,"text":"主席說的一年其實沒有很重很輕的行為你覺得這是不是一個處罰對象跟行為的限縮就這樣的一個嚴格來講從翁版副版到再修正版是不是一個限縮這個裡面的內容不是我只是說從官員處罰對象有沒有限縮了行者有沒有行為上有沒有限縮了"},{"start":841.198,"end":862.741,"text":"是不一樣的,官員是始終沒有改變。然後呢,只有人民的行為是對象。對,然後反質詢,反質詢的話也有調整啦。每個人看法都不是很一致。是,所以現在限縮到只剩在立法院執行新法當中,就要增加的聽證跟原本有的質詢的虛偽陳述,是不是這樣子?是。好,那我們來往下看齁。"},{"start":863.542,"end":887.678,"text":"所以說我們目前看到的中華民國刑法第五章五至一章五章之一一四一之條之一一四一之條之二的在修正動議呢所謂的說所以就其所知之重要關係事項為序位之陳述重要關係事項就是影響諮詢的結論那有沒有不重要的剛我所詢問你認為國會議員在詢問行政官員有不重要的嗎沒有沒有好"},{"start":888.177,"end":913.91,"text":"所以我們就看清楚今天我藉這個機會因為國民黨主控的司法法制委員會不給委員有不同的意見不同的討論所以我們被迫要用這個質詢的方式來就明天即將做二讀審議已經縮回到因為民眾抗議縮回到只剩一事一條之一的再修正動議的內容我們來給大家看一個訴求所以我們希望未來"},{"start":915.771,"end":926.146,"text":"這個結論也是同時跟主席報告我們希望未來能夠刪除藐視國會罪就是再修正的退回重審所有的法案退回到司法法制委員會重新審議以上謝謝"}]}}}}