{"id":153175,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153175","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e133123b5c1f759837d80d0e137800dc086ea333bc5d453e1b195a8298b5aff6b46715ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:16:14 - 09:30:22","影片長度":"00:14:08","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":848,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T09:30:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T09:16:14+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":48,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時16分）主席，謝謝。麻煩請陳主委跟林次長。"],["主席：好，請主委跟次長，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員東陽：洪委員早。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，先跟你請教，很多媒體朋友都關注到賴清德總統的就職演說沒有再提起非核家園，再加上國發會新任的主委也說對核能的看法與和碩的童董事長還有新任經濟部郭部長都理性看待這件事情，因為對產業來說，電夠不夠、低碳電夠不夠以及淨零是關鍵的因素，未來5年內，我想臺灣不管是半導體的擴廠、AI人工智慧跟高階運算都是新興科技發展，所以現在也需要評估中長期的用電成長，如果真的有可能往產業規劃中長期的電力成長，是不是代表現在政府重啟核能已經確定？一旦重啟核能的話，核安會應不應該要提高層級？您怎麼看？"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝洪委員，關於重啟核能，這是國家的能源政策，核安會是核能安全的管制機關，剛好今天經濟部次長在這裡，我想次長可能會回答這個政策問題……"],["洪委員孟楷：我先請教一下，如果以現階段來講，到今年7月我們核三廠1號機也會停止運轉，對不對？本席剛剛看了一下，今天早上此時此刻台電的官網，核能占全國的發電占比為6.2%，而核三廠1號機、2號機都是全速運轉，代表核三廠1號機、2號機各占3.1%的全國發電量，如果到今年7月核三廠1號機停止運轉的話，我們又有3.1%的用電缺口，是不是？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的，但我的理解是我們會有新的機組上來，這個可能台電公司……"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼樣的機組？次長，主委馬上就推給經濟部了，我們今年7月就會有新的機組了？"],["林次長全能：您剛剛提到一個用電需求規劃，我們每年都在做，而且滾動在修正，所以委員所提到的部分，核能三廠的1號機如果在今年7月27號停止運轉，我們事實上已經規劃好相關的電補進來。這部分我跟您做報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：相關的電是什麼？火力發電？"],["林次長全能：不是只有火力，包括我們的再生能源，這部分當然就是大潭的7號機跟9號機……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們現在再生能源……"],["林次長全能：對，另外一個部分就是太陽能跟離岸發電，今年會補上來。"],["洪委員孟楷：太陽能跟離岸發電，但是發電的價格跟核電差多少？"],["林次長全能：當然我們現在核能的價格跟太陽能跟離岸風力有一段差距，我知道……"],["洪委員孟楷：差4倍啊！剛剛本席看了台電的官網，太陽能發電平均有90%都是跟民間購電，你的購電成本1度電平均來講，我沒有高估，你們自己的報告寫購電成本1度電是4塊5，核電的發電成本是1塊1到1塊5之間。換言之，如果今年7月，即便你剛剛是說要用再生能源來補足電，補足這個3.1%的缺口，你也要以高達4倍價格的成本的代價來去因應，不是嗎？","再來，新任郭部長有講到應寬估未來中長期的用電成長，我覺得這代表郭部長也算是一個很務實跟瞭解產業的人，他也講了，未來3年到5年內，臺灣在AI、高科技運算這個階段的競爭我們勢必要跑在前面，要站在領先群，對不對？所以我們臺灣未來3年到5年內用電成長的需求有多大？"],["林次長全能：跟委員報告，事實上，我剛剛提到我們每年都在做用電需求的評估，您剛剛提到我們郭部長曾提過產業在未來AI方面的需求，事實上，這幾年我們已經有把半導體跟AI的用電需求加入到我們的用電評估裡面，當然，這個部分，確實它的成長我們有看到……"],["洪委員孟楷：這個成長需要多少的電力？有媒體講要三成，有沒有需要比現在更多三成以上的電力？"],["林次長全能：沒有那麼高，我想沒有那麼高。"],["洪委員孟楷：那是多少？"],["林次長全能：這個部分如果每年用平均來看，大概頂多是2.7%，增加可能到3%左右這樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：每年2.7%到3%？"],["林次長全能：平均，每年平均，我們原先預估的大概是2.7%，如果把AI跟半導體加進去，我們現在已經在做精算，不過初步應該會到高過3%左右，平均啦，每年平均。"],["洪委員孟楷：平均每年還要增加3%的成長，是不是？"],["林次長全能：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：這樣未來的5年到10年內其實也是一樣啊！如果說未來10年內，以複利來算的話，其實也是要有三成的電力啊！"],["林次長全能：是，所以我剛剛有跟委員報告過，我們都在做用電需求的估計，我們沒有說就不去……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在本席要問的就是，如果我們現在放眼到2025年，占比6.2%的核電也要shut down，我們目前的火力發電是火力全開了，燃煤、燃氣的火力發電已經高達八成，但你的再生能源又沒有辦法達到那二成，那臺灣的電到底何去何從？我們要繼續開火力發電？你剛剛自己講的啊，我沒有高估，你剛剛2分鐘前說的話，一年3%以上，5年就至少20%，10年至少30%，那臺灣未來10年就是會有三成的電力成長，你又不要用核電，你的再生能源有辦法在未來10年內可以成長三成嗎？"],["林次長全能：我跟……"],["洪委員孟楷：你的火力發電現在沒有要在任何一個地方，除非你告訴我，你未來10年內有選擇哪一個地方要再蓋火力電廠，但是即便是要選擇蓋火力電廠，一座電廠要蓋好，完全都不講可行性評估跟環評，一個電廠從開工到完工要6年的時間，所以你現在怎麼面對你的能源缺口？"],["林次長全能：委員講的都相當務實，我們也是依據這個部分在做相關的規劃，事實上，這些電力的需求我們做推估之後……"],["洪委員孟楷：那你的規劃在哪裡？"],["林次長全能：我們的規劃就如剛剛您所說的，事實上，我們從比較潔淨的天然氣跟再生能源的部分做最大增加的設置，每一年相關的再生能源跟火力發電的燃氣，我們都有明確的設置……"],["洪委員孟楷：好啦，我直接請教啦，因為看起來賴總統也沒有提說非核家園嘛，過去2016、2020蔡英文總統是把非核家園當作神主牌，賴清德總統沒有提啊！經濟部會不會主動提核電廠延役？不管是核二廠延役或者是核三廠一號機在7月以前要延役，有沒有這個規劃？"],["林次長全能：跟委員報告，事實上，這些事情必須有很重要的三個條件，第一個條件就是法規的規範，我們必須依照法規的規範去做處理，而目前法規的規範已經都過了延役的期間，我們還是要依據法規規範來處理，另外一個……"],["洪委員孟楷：會不會主動提修法？"],["林次長全能：我想這個不是我們經濟部可以主導去做處理的。"],["洪委員孟楷：會不會主動請現在執政黨的委員來提修法？"],["林次長全能：我要跟委員報告，除了這個之外，其實還有一個很重要的課題，就是核廢料的處理，目前核廢料還是一個需要花很多時間去做……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們都理解，過去怎麼處理就怎麼處理，尤其是我們看到新北市政府在本席選區所屬的核一廠，在近期內、這個月也會提出核一廠室外乾式貯存的水保證照，對於相關的動工、興建等等，應該時程都會掌握嘛，對不對？"],["林次長全能：我想這個部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以本席現在提到的是說，這是一個負責任的態度，現在主責、主事機關以及我們的政府是經濟部你們這邊要去做處理，不是什麼責任都推給立法院。","主委，我再請教，也一樣，面對外界越來越多重啟核電的呼籲，請問核安會有沒有做過沙盤推演？因為剛剛有提到，不管是法規的問題，不管是相關的部分，但如果說現在是政府政策，看到我們臺灣有能源缺口，確實有要重啟。當然，本席認為第一，安全一定最重要；第二，一定是要讓大家能夠凝聚社會共識，但是如果現在政府的政策就是想要往這邊推，你不能只是丟給立法院，說立法院要修法，如果說立法院要修法的話，也應該要由主事者這邊來負起責任啊！有沒有做過沙盤推演？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我跟委員報告，有關核安會的部分，我剛才在PowerPoint裡面講得很清楚，它跟美國的核管會（NRC）、日本的原子力規制委員會（NRA）是一模一樣的，它就是負責獨立審查安全的管制機關，所以它不負責能源的政策。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以你的意思……"],["陳主任委員東陽：假設、假設……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席現在聽得出來，你的意思就是說，不管是台電，不管是經濟部，政府沒有提出延役的需求，你們這邊都不會再去評估或是審查到底現在夠不夠安全……"],["陳主任委員東陽：我必須站在獨立機關的角色。"],["洪委員孟楷：經濟部或是相關的政府單位也會詢問核安會的意見，到底現在這一些，不管是核二廠還是核三廠的延役，有沒有安全疑慮的部分嘛！"],["陳主任委員東陽：安全要由台電先評估，我們如果有拿到資料，我們才可以去做……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你們只做審查？"],["陳主任委員東陽：審查、評估，我們還要維持所有……"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那本席就請教，最近有看到核電廠的審查報告，2011年福島電廠事故之後，不就有做震災報告嗎？到現在，媒體5月12號的新聞報導，核安會還在等台電的審查報告，十多年過去了，核安會為什麼還在等報告？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個部分，委員講的應該是減震啦，SSHAC Level 3，那個是2011以後……"],["洪委員孟楷：Pure review！"],["陳主任委員東陽：對、對、對，因為美國因應這一方面的問題，所以他們組成了一個SSHAC Level 3的委員會，在2013或2014，我們要求台電公司是不是也比照這樣來辦理，所以這是一個非常長的process，最近他們審完，台電這邊有一些報告，目前在做國外的委員審查……"],["洪委員孟楷：通常這個報告要多久時間？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個可能，台電應該也很快啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，你剛剛說2013，我就以最寬估啊，2011發生福島核災之後，你們就開始要求了，在2013、2014要求它做這個審查報告，到現在是2024，10年了耶！"],["許副總經理永輝：跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：10年改朝換代多少了？總統都從馬英九變蔡英文變賴清德了，結果審查報告還沒拿到！還沒出來！"],["許副總經理永輝：報告委員，因為那整個過程非常冗長，包括國際專家……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有問題，你用冗長都沒有問題，我只問這個報告的合理時間，核安會，你是監督機關，合理來講，這個報告要多久出來？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個不是平常……"],["洪委員孟楷：合理來講，國際上合理來講，一個報告多久出來？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個報告基本上就是要這麼長，因為它……"],["洪委員孟楷：這麼長是多長？10年？"],["許副總經理永輝：這個報告，以目前來講，因為有分三個階段，完整的報告，以目前來看，大概只有美國跟臺灣有在做，臺灣……"],["洪委員孟楷：那期中呢？"],["許副總經理永輝：臺灣是從2015開始做……"],["洪委員孟楷：2015到現在也10年了嘛！"],["許副總經理永輝：目前來講，我們已經到第三階段，最後一階段，目前在做所謂國際同業審查的這個階段。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以這個報告什麼時候會出來？"],["許副總經理永輝：我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為這個報告裡面有包含防災、防震以及相關核能安全的部分嘛，這個報告什麼時候會出來？"],["許副總經理永輝：台電的完整報告目前已經完成了，現在就在等國際同業的審查，我們預估大概應該在今年，核三在今年年底、核二應該在明年初大概可以出來。"],["洪委員孟楷：今年年底及明年初？"],["許副總經理永輝：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以到時候這個報告也可以完整的讓國人知道嗎？"],["許副總經理永輝：還要經過會裡的審查。"],["洪委員孟楷：會議審查？因為我的時間到了，主委，因為國人都對於核能安全非常關注，這個報告如果有收到的話，是不是也可以把這個報告擇要，可以把商業機密或相關機密遮蔽，但至少防災係數等等的部分是可以讓國人知道的？"],["陳主任委員東陽：完全沒有問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝主委。主委，本席會等著看我們的報告，也請加速，最重要的是以專業來考量，不要有任何政治立場，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席（葛委員如鈞代）：謝謝洪孟楷委員，主委請回座，官員請回座。","接著進行質詢的是柯志恩召委，請柯志恩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪申翰","陳秀寳","萬美玲","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","張嘉郡","陳培瑜","張智倫","林倩綺","羅智強","吳春城","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠\n延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00004"}},"transcript":{"id":"153175","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153175","tool":"pyannote","id":"153175-pyannote"},"job_id":"DNfQXbPy9IqBZ0If","queued_at":"2024-05-30 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{\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 462.509, \"end\": 462.569, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 462.569, \"end\": 462.589, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 462.589, \"end\": 462.749, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 462.749, \"end\": 462.809, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 462.809, \"end\": 462.829, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 484.091, \"end\": 485.112, \"text\": \"會否主動請現在執政黨的委員來提修法?我們都會\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"否\", \"start\": 484.091, \"end\": 484.191, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 484.191, \"end\": 484.211, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 484.211, \"end\": 484.452, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"執\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 484.452, \"end\": 484.552, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 484.552, \"end\": 484.672, \"score\": 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應 該 要 提 高 成 績 您 怎 麼 看\n\n4\n00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:44,516\n謝 謝 洪 委 員 重 啟 這 個 核 能 這 個 是 國 家 的 能 源 政 策 那 麼 核 安 會 是 核 能 安 全 的 管 制 機 關 剛 好 今 天 經 濟 部 次 長 在 這 裡 我 想 次 長 可 能 在 比 較 回 答 這 個 政 策 我 先 請 教 一 下 如 果 說 現 階 段 來 講 到 今 年 7 月 我 們 核 三 廠 一 號 機 也 會\n\n5\n00:01:46,343 --> 00:01:46,563\n是 不 是 ?\n\n6\n00:02:15,912 --> 00:02:24,885\n是 的 但 我 的 理 解 我 們 會 有 新 的 機 組 上 來 這 個 可 能 台 電 公 司 什 麼 樣 的 機 組 來 次 長 馬 上 主 委 就 推 給 經 濟 部 了\n\n7\n00:02:27,645 --> 00:02:55,896\n我 們 今 年 7 月 就 會 有 新 的 機 組 了 我 想 這 個 您 剛 剛 提 到 一 個 用 電 需 求 規 劃 我 們 每 年 都 在 做 而 且 就 滾 動 在 修 正 所 以 您 委 員 所 提 到 的 部 分 核 能 三 廠 的 一 號 機 如 果 在 今 年 的 7 月 2 7 號 這 個 停 止 運 轉 我 們 事 實 上 已 經 規 劃 好 相 關 的 一 個 這 個 相 關 的 電 來 補 進 來 那 這 個 部 分 我 跟 您 做 報 告 火 力 發 電 包 括 我 們 的 不 是 只 有 火 力 包 括 我 們 的 再 生 能 源 那 這 個 部 分 當 然 就 是 大 潭 的 7 號 機 跟 9 號\n\n8\n00:02:57,056 --> 00:03:15,562\n我 們 現 在 再 生 能 源 對 那 另 外 一 個 部 分 就 是 太 陽 能 跟 那 個 離 岸 發 電 太 陽 能 跟 離 岸 發 電 但 是 發 電 的 這 個 價 格 跟 核 電 差 多 少 當 然 我 們 現 在 的 那 個 這 個 核 能 的 價 格 跟 太 陽 能 跟 離 岸 風 力 有 一 段 的 一 個 差 差 四 倍 啊\n\n9\n00:03:17,631 --> 00:03:33,412\n剛 剛 本 席 看 了 一 下 台 電 的 官 網 平 均 太 陽 能 發 電 你 有 9 0 % 9 0 % 都 是 跟 民 間 購 電 你 的 購 電 成 本 是 一 度 電 平 均 來 講 我 沒 有 高 估 你 們 自 己 的 報 告 你 們 購 電 成 本 一 度 電 是 4 塊 5\n\n10\n00:03:35,254 --> 00:03:58,855\n核 電 的 發 電 成 本 是 1 塊 1 到 1 塊 5 之 間 換 言 之 如 果 說 你 今 年 7 月 即 便 你 剛 剛 講 是 說 要 用 再 生 能 源 來 補 足 電 補 足 這 個 3 . 1 % 的 缺 口 你 也 要 以 高 達 4 倍 的 價 格 的 成 本 的 代 價 來 去 因 應 不 是 嗎 那 再 來 現 在 新 任 的 郭 部 長 他 有 講 到 是 說 寬 估 未 來 中 長 期 的 用 電 成 長\n\n11\n00:03:59,844 --> 00:04:21,329\n代 表 我 覺 得 郭 部 長 也 算 是 一 個 很 務 實 跟 產 業 的 人 所 以 他 也 講 了 未 來 3 年 到 5 年 內 台 灣 在 A I 高 科 技 運 算 的 這 一 個 階 段 跟 競 爭 我 們 一 定 勢 必 要 跑 在 前 面 要 站 在 領 先 群 對 不 對 所 以 我 們 台 灣 未 來 3 到 5 年 內 的 用 電 成 長 我 們 的 需 求 有 多 大\n\n12\n00:04:22,745 --> 00:04:45,955\n我 跟 那 個 委 員 報 告 事 實 上 我 剛 剛 提 到 說 我 們 每 年 都 在 做 這 個 用 電 的 需 求 的 評 估 那 您 剛 剛 提 到 我 們 郭 部 長 也 提 到 說 產 業 在 未 來 的 A I 需 求 事 實 上 這 幾 年 我 們 已 經 有 把 這 個 半 導 體 跟 A I 需 求 的 用 電 的 需 求 加 入 到 我 們 的 用 電 的 評 估 裡 面 那 當 然 這 個 部 分 確 實 它 的 一 個 成 長 我 們 有 看 到 我 們 成 長 需 要 多 少 的 電 力\n\n13\n00:04:47,115 --> 00:05:12,102\n有 媒 體 講 是 要 三 成 對 有 沒 有 需 要 再 比 現 在 更 多 三 成 以 上 的 電 力 沒 有 那 麼 高 我 想 沒 有 那 麼 高 的 部 分 我 想 這 個 部 分 如 果 每 年 用 平 均 的 話 大 概 頂 多 是 大 概 2 . 7 % 增 加 可 能 到 3 % 左 右 這 樣 子 每 年 2 . 7 到 3 平 均 我 們 原 先 一 估 的 部 分 大 概 是 2 . 7 如 果 把 這 個 A I 跟 這 個 半 導 體 加 進 去 我 們 現 在 已 經 在 做 精 算 不 過 初 步 的 部 分 應 該 會 大 到\n\n14\n00:05:14,241 --> 00:05:14,862\n平 均 每 年 還 要 增 加 三\n\n15\n00:05:20,589 --> 00:05:23,471\n6 . 2 % 的 核 電 也 要 s h u t d o w n\n\n16\n00:05:49,110 --> 00:06:15,450\n然 後 我 們 目 前 火 力 發 電 是 火 力 全 開 了 你 的 燃 煤 燃 氣 已 經 高 達 火 力 發 電 高 達 八 成 了 你 的 再 生 能 源 又 沒 有 辦 法 達 到 那 兩 成 那 台 灣 的 電 到 底 何 去 何 從 我 們 要 繼 續 開 火 力 發 電 你 剛 自 己 講 啦 我 沒 有 高 估 啊 你 剛 的 話 兩 分 鐘 前 一 年 3 % 以 上 五 年 就 至 少 2 0 %\n\n17\n00:06:20,782 --> 00:06:44,733\n臺 灣 未 來 十 年 就 是 會 有 三 成 的 電 力 成 長 那 你 又 不 要 用 核 電 你 的 再 生 能 源 有 辦 法 在 未 來 十 年 內 可 以 成 長 三 成 嗎 你 的 火 力 發 電 現 在 沒 有 要 在 任 何 一 個 地 方 除 非 你 告 訴 我 你 未 來 十 年 內 有 選 擇 哪 一 個 地 方 要 再 蓋 火 力 電 廠 但 是 即 便 是 要 選 擇 蓋 火 力 電 廠 一 座 電 廠 蓋 好 至 少 從\n\n18\n00:06:46,021 --> 00:06:56,158\n完 全 都 不 講 說 可 行 性 品 顧 還 品 一 個 電 廠 除 了 要 開 工 到 完 工 6 年 的 時 間 所 以 你 現 在 怎 麼 面 對 你 的 能 源 缺 口\n\n19\n00:06:56,890 --> 00:07:24,620\n委 員 講 的 都 是 相 當 的 務 實 的 一 個 這 個 說 明 我 們 也 是 依 據 這 個 部 分 在 做 相 關 的 一 個 規 劃 事 實 上 這 些 電 力 的 需 求 做 規 模 之 後 我 們 規 劃 就 如 剛 剛 您 所 說 的 事 實 上 我 們 從 比 較 潔 淨 的 天 然 氣 跟 再 生 能 源 部 分 做 最 大 的 一 個 這 個 增 加 的 一 個 這 個 設 置 那 這 個 每 一 年 的 那 個 這 個 相 關 的 再 生 能 源 跟 這 個 火 力 發 電 的 燃 氣 我 們 都 有 明 確 的 一 個 設 置\n\n20\n00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:41,909\n因 為 看 起 來 賴 總 統 也 沒 有 提 說 非 核 家 園 嘛 過 去 2 0 1 6 、 2 0 2 0 蔡 英 文 總 統 是 把 非 核 家 園 都 當 作 神 主 牌 賴 清 德 總 統 沒 有 提 啊 經 濟 部 會 不 會 主 動 提 核 電 延 役 不 管 是 核 二 廠 延 役 或 者 是 核 三 廠 一 號 機 在 7 月 以 前 要 延 役\n\n21\n00:07:42,509 --> 00:07:42,829\n會 不 會 主 動 提 出 法 ?\n\n22\n00:08:04,091 --> 00:08:05,112\n會 否 主 動 請 現 在 執 政 黨 的 委 員 來 提 修 法 ? 我 們 都 會\n\n23\n00:08:20,009 --> 00:08:40,105\n我 理 解 過 去 怎 麼 處 理 就 怎 麼 處 理 尤 其 是 我 們 看 到 不 管 是 新 北 市 政 府 在 本 席 所 屬 的 核 一 廠 在 近 期 內 這 個 月 也 會 提 出 核 一 廠 的 室 外 乾 式 儲 存 的 水 保 證 照 因 此 相 關 的 動 工 新 建 等 等 應 該 時 程 都 會 掌 握 嗎 ?\n\n24\n00:08:41,902 --> 00:09:00,784\n所 以 本 席 現 在 在 提 到 的 是 說 這 個 是 一 個 負 責 任 的 態 度 現 在 主 事 機 關 以 及 我 們 的 政 府 是 經 濟 部 你 們 這 邊 要 去 做 處 理 不 是 什 麼 責 任 都 是 推 給 立 法 院 來 諸 位 我 在 請 教 喔 也 一 樣\n\n25\n00:09:02,847 --> 00:09:19,070\n面 對 外 界 越 來 越 多 的 這 個 重 啟 核 電 的 呼 籲 啊 我 想 和 安 會 有 沒 有 做 過 砂 盤 推 演 因 為 剛 有 提 到 不 管 是 法 規 的 問 題 不 管 是 相 關 的 部 分 但 如 果 說 現 在 是 政 府 政 策 看 到 我 們 台 灣 有 能 源 缺 口 確 實 有 要 重 啟\n\n26\n00:09:20,251 --> 00:09:37,550\n我 當 然 本 席 第 一 安 全 一 定 最 重 要 第 二 一 定 是 要 讓 大 家 能 夠 社 會 共 識 但 是 如 果 說 現 在 政 府 的 政 策 就 是 想 要 往 這 邊 推 你 不 能 說 只 是 丟 給 說 立 法 院 說 啊 立 法 院 要 修 法 那 如 果 說 立 法 院 修 法 的 話 也 應 該 要 由 主 事 者 這 邊 來 負 起 責 任 啊\n\n27\n00:09:38,722 --> 00:10:06,563\n有 沒 有 做 過 砂 盤 推 演 那 個 我 跟 委 員 報 告 核 安 會 我 剛 才 在 P o w e r P o i n t 裡 面 講 得 很 清 楚 他 跟 美 國 的 核 管 會 N R C 跟 日 本 的 原 子 力 規 制 委 員 會 N R A 是 一 模 一 樣 的 他 就 是 負 責 獨 立 審 查 安 全 的 管 制 機 關 所 以 他 不 負 責 能 源 的 政 策 所 以 你 的 意 思 假 設 本 席 現 在 聽 得 出 來 你 的 意 思 就 是 說 只 要\n\n28\n00:10:07,324 --> 00:10:29,079\n不 管 是 台 電 不 管 是 經 濟 部 政 府 沒 有 提 出 研 議 的 需 求 我 們 這 邊 都 不 會 再 去 評 估 或 是 審 查 到 底 現 在 夠 不 夠 安 全 經 濟 部 或 是 相 關 的 政 府 單 位 也 會 詢 問 核 安 會 的 意 見 到 底 現 在 這 些 不 管 是 核 二 廠 核 三 廠 的 研 議 有 沒 有 安 全 的 部 分 嗎\n\n29\n00:10:30,109 --> 00:10:34,611\n最 近 有 看 到 核 電 廠 的 審 查 報 告 2 0 1 1 年 當 時 的 一 個 福 島 電 廠 之 後 不 就 有 做 震 災 報 告 嗎 那 到 現 在 媒 體 5 月 1 2 號 的 新 聞 報 導 核 安 會 還 在 等 台 電 的 審 查 報 告\n\n30\n00:10:58,700 --> 00:10:59,753\n十 多 年 過 去 了\n\n31\n00:11:00,711 --> 00:11:01,752\n核 能 會 為 什 麼 還 在 等 報 告 ?\n\n32\n00:11:30,931 --> 00:11:46,999\n所 以 這 個 是 一 個 非 常 長 的 p r o c e s s 那 麼 最 近 他 們 審 完 那 麼 台 電 這 邊 有 一 些 報 告 那 目 前 在 做 國 外 的 委 員 的 審 查 那 麼 所 以 通 常 這 報 告 要 多 久 時 間 這 個 可 能 台 電 應 該 是 也 很 快\n\n33\n00:11:48,687 --> 00:12:10,136\n來 你 剛 剛 主 委 你 講 說 2 0 1 3 我 就 以 最 寬 估 啊 2 0 1 1 發 生 福 島 核 災 之 後 你 們 就 開 始 要 求 了 就 2 0 1 3 1 4 要 求 他 做 這 個 審 查 報 告 到 現 在 是 2 0 2 4 欸 1 0 年 了 欸 1 0 年 改 朝 換 代 多 少 了 總 統 都 從 馬 英 九 變 蔡 英 文 變 賴 清 德 了 結 果 審 查 報 告 還 沒 拿 到 還 沒 出 來\n\n34\n00:12:12,947 --> 00:12:26,393\n報 告 委 員 大 概 因 為 那 整 個 過 程 要 非 常 冗 長 沒 有 問 題 你 用 冗 長 都 沒 有 問 題 我 只 問 這 個 報 告 合 理 來 講 核 安 會 你 是 監 督 機 關 合 理 來 講 這 報 告 要 多 久 出 來 合 理 來 講 國 際 上 合 理 來 講 一 個 報 告 多 久 出 來\n\n35\n00:12:34,336 --> 00:12:50,603\n這 個 的 報 告 基 本 上 就 是 要 這 麼 長 , 因 為 他 . . . 這 麼 長 是 多 長 ? 1 0 年 ? 報 告 目 前 來 講 因 為 他 有 分 有 三 個 階 段 那 完 整 的 報 告 目 前 來 看 大 概 只 有 美 國 跟 台 灣 有 在 做\n\n36\n00:12:51,423 --> 00:13:04,745\n那 其 中 呢 ? 台 灣 是 從 2 0 1 5 開 始 做 2 0 1 5 到 現 在 也 1 0 年 了 嘛 目 前 來 講 我 們 已 經 到 第 三 階 段 最 後 一 階 段 目 前 在 做 所 謂 國 際 同 業 的 這 個 審 查 的 這 個 階 段 好 所 以 這 個 報 告 什 麼 時 候 會 出 來 ?\n\n37\n00:13:07,112 --> 00:13:33,280\n因 為 這 個 報 告 裡 面 有 包 含 防 災 防 震 以 及 相 關 核 能 安 全 的 部 分 嘛 這 報 告 什 麼 時 候 會 出 來 ? 台 電 的 完 整 的 報 告 呢 大 概 目 前 已 經 完 成 了 現 在 就 在 等 國 際 的 這 個 同 業 的 這 個 審 查 我 們 預 估 大 概 應 該 在 今 年 核 三 在 今 年 年 底 那 核 二 應 該 在 明 年 的 明 年 初 大 概 可 以 出 來 今 年 一 底 明 年 初 所 以 到 時 候 這 個 報 告 也 可 以 完 整 的 讓 國 人 知 道 嗎 ?\n\n38\n00:13:35,239 --> 00:13:56,312\n還 有 經 過 會 議 審 查 會 議 審 查 來 最 後 因 為 我 先 到 了 主 委 這 個 報 告 如 果 有 收 到 的 話 是 不 是 也 可 以 因 為 我 想 國 人 都 對 於 核 能 安 全 非 常 關 注 這 報 告 是 不 是 能 夠 責 要 把 商 業 機 密 或 相 關 機 密 遮 蔽 但 是 至 少 防 災 係 數 等 等 的 是 可 以 讓 國 人 知 道 的\n\n39\n00:13:56,852 --> 00:13:57,072\n謝 謝 洪 孟 楷\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10200\t17908\t主席謝謝麻煩請陳主委跟林次長好請主委跟次長謝謝好主委\n20182\t43391\t所以先跟你請教很多媒體朋友都關注到賴清德總統的就職演說沒有再提起非核家園那再加上國發會新任的主委也講說對核能的看法都是與核碩的董事長同董事長還有我們新任經濟部郭部長都理性的看待這件事情因為產業來說電夠不夠低碳電夠不夠以及淨零是關鍵的因素未來\n49634\t76258\t五年內我想台灣不管是半導體的擴廠AI人工智慧跟高階運算都是新興科技發展所以現在也需要評估中長期的一個用電成長那如果說真的有可能往產業規劃中長期的電力成長的話是不是代表現在政府重啟核能已經確定一旦重啟核能的話核安會應不應該要提高成績您怎麼看\n79560\t104516\t謝謝洪委員重啟這個核能這個是國家的能源政策那麼核安會是核能安全的管制機關剛好今天經濟部次長在這裡我想次長可能在比較回答這個政策我先請教一下如果說現階段來講到今年7月我們核三廠一號機也會\n106343\t106563\t是不是?\n135912\t144885\t是的 但我的理解我們會有新的機組上來 這個可能台電公司什麼樣的機組 來 次長馬上主委就推給經濟部了\n147645\t175896\t我們今年7月就會有新的機組了我想這個您剛剛提到一個用電需求規劃我們每年都在做而且就滾動在修正所以您委員所提到的部分核能三廠的一號機如果在今年的7月27號這個停止運轉我們事實上已經規劃好相關的一個這個相關的電來補進來那這個部分我跟您做報告火力發電包括我們的不是只有火力包括我們的再生能源那這個部分當然就是大潭的7號機跟9號\n177056\t195562\t我們現在再生能源對那另外一個部分就是太陽能跟那個離岸發電太陽能跟離岸發電但是發電的這個價格跟核電差多少當然我們現在的那個這個核能的價格跟太陽能跟離岸風力有一段的一個差差四倍啊\n197631\t213412\t剛剛本席看了一下台電的官網平均太陽能發電你有90%90%都是跟民間購電你的購電成本是一度電平均來講我沒有高估你們自己的報告你們購電成本一度電是4塊5\n215254\t238855\t核電的發電成本是1塊1到1塊5之間換言之如果說你今年7月即便你剛剛講是說要用再生能源來補足電補足這個3.1%的缺口你也要以高達4倍的價格的成本的代價來去因應不是嗎那再來現在新任的郭部長他有講到是說寬估未來中長期的用電成長\n239844\t261329\t代表我覺得郭部長也算是一個很務實跟產業的人所以他也講了未來3年到5年內台灣在AI高科技運算的這一個階段跟競爭我們一定勢必要跑在前面要站在領先群 對不對所以我們台灣未來3到5年內的用電成長我們的需求有多大\n262745\t285955\t我跟那個委員報告事實上我剛剛提到說我們每年都在做這個用電的需求的評估那您剛剛提到我們郭部長也提到說產業在未來的AI需求事實上這幾年我們已經有把這個半導體跟AI需求的用電的需求加入到我們的用電的評估裡面那當然這個部分確實它的一個成長我們有看到我們成長需要多少的電力\n287115\t312102\t有媒體講是要三成對有沒有需要再比現在更多三成以上的電力沒有那麼高我想沒有那麼高的部分我想這個部分如果每年用平均的話大概頂多是大概2.7%增加可能到3%左右這樣子每年2.7到3平均我們原先一估的部分大概是2.7如果把這個AI跟這個半導體加進去我們現在已經在做精算不過初步的部分應該會大到\n314241\t314862\t平均每年還要增加三\n320589\t323471\t6.2%的核電也要shut down\n349110\t375450\t然後我們目前火力發電是火力全開了你的燃煤燃氣已經高達火力發電高達八成了你的再生能源又沒有辦法達到那兩成那台灣的電到底何去何從我們要繼續開火力發電你剛自己講啦我沒有高估啊你剛的話兩分鐘前一年3%以上五年就至少20%\n380782\t404733\t臺灣未來十年就是會有三成的電力成長那你又不要用核電你的再生能源有辦法在未來十年內可以成長三成嗎你的火力發電現在沒有要在任何一個地方除非你告訴我你未來十年內有選擇哪一個地方要再蓋火力電廠但是即便是要選擇蓋火力電廠一座電廠蓋好至少從\n406021\t416158\t完全都不講說可行性品顧還品一個電廠除了要開工到完工6年的時間所以你現在怎麼面對你的能源缺口\n416890\t444620\t委員講的都是相當的務實的一個這個說明我們也是依據這個部分在做相關的一個規劃事實上這些電力的需求做規模之後我們規劃就如剛剛您所說的事實上我們從比較潔淨的天然氣跟再生能源部分做最大的一個這個增加的一個這個設置那這個每一年的那個這個相關的再生能源跟這個火力發電的燃氣我們都有明確的一個設置\n445800\t461909\t因為看起來賴總統也沒有提說非核家園嘛過去2016、2020蔡英文總統是把非核家園都當作神主牌賴清德總統沒有提啊經濟部會不會主動提核電延役不管是核二廠延役或者是核三廠一號機在7月以前要延役\n462509\t462829\t會不會主動提出法?\n484091\t485112\t會否主動請現在執政黨的委員來提修法?我們都會\n500009\t520105\t我理解過去怎麼處理就怎麼處理尤其是我們看到不管是新北市政府在本席所屬的核一廠在近期內這個月也會提出核一廠的室外乾式儲存的水保證照因此相關的動工新建等等應該時程都會掌握嗎?\n521902\t540784\t所以本席現在在提到的是說這個是一個負責任的態度現在主事機關以及我們的政府是經濟部你們這邊要去做處理不是什麼責任都是推給立法院來 諸位我在請教喔也一樣\n542847\t559070\t面對外界越來越多的這個重啟核電的呼籲啊我想和安會有沒有做過砂盤推演因為剛有提到不管是法規的問題不管是相關的部分但如果說現在是政府政策看到我們台灣有能源缺口確實有要重啟\n560251\t577550\t我當然本席第一安全一定最重要第二一定是要讓大家能夠社會共識但是如果說現在政府的政策就是想要往這邊推你不能說只是丟給說立法院說啊立法院要修法那如果說立法院修法的話也應該要由主事者這邊來負起責任啊\n578722\t606563\t有沒有做過砂盤推演那個我跟委員報告核安會我剛才在PowerPoint裡面講得很清楚他跟美國的核管會NRC跟日本的原子力規制委員會NRA是一模一樣的他就是負責獨立審查安全的管制機關所以他不負責能源的政策所以你的意思假設本席現在聽得出來你的意思就是說只要\n607324\t629079\t不管是台電不管是經濟部政府沒有提出研議的需求我們這邊都不會再去評估或是審查到底現在夠不夠安全經濟部或是相關的政府單位也會詢問核安會的意見到底現在這些不管是核二廠核三廠的研議有沒有安全的部分嗎\n630109\t634611\t最近有看到核電廠的審查報告2011年當時的一個福島電廠之後不就有做震災報告嗎那到現在媒體5月12號的新聞報導核安會還在等台電的審查報告\n658700\t659753\t十多年過去了\n660711\t661752\t核能會為什麼還在等報告?\n690931\t706999\t所以這個是一個非常長的process那麼最近他們審完那麼台電這邊有一些報告那目前在做國外的委員的審查那麼所以通常這報告要多久時間這個可能台電應該是也很快\n708687\t730136\t來你剛剛主委你講說2013我就以最寬估啊2011發生福島核災之後你們就開始要求了就2013 14要求他做這個審查報告到現在是2024欸10年了欸10年改朝換代多少了總統都從馬英九變蔡英文變賴清德了結果審查報告還沒拿到還沒出來\n732947\t746393\t報告委員大概因為那整個過程要非常冗長沒有問題你用冗長都沒有問題我只問這個報告合理來講 核安會你是監督機關合理來講這報告要多久出來合理來講 國際上合理來講一個報告多久出來\n754336\t770603\t這個的報告基本上就是要這麼長,因為他...這麼長是多長?10年?報告目前來講因為他有分有三個階段那完整的報告目前來看大概只有美國跟台灣有在做\n771423\t784745\t那其中呢?台灣是從2015開始做2015到現在也10年了嘛目前來講我們已經到第三階段最後一階段目前在做所謂國際同業的這個審查的這個階段好所以這個報告什麼時候會出來?\n787112\t813280\t因為這個報告裡面有包含防災防震以及相關核能安全的部分嘛這報告什麼時候會出來?台電的完整的報告呢大概目前已經完成了現在就在等國際的這個同業的這個審查我們預估大概應該在今年核三在今年年底那核二應該在明年的明年初大概可以出來今年一底明年初所以到時候這個報告也可以完整的讓國人知道嗎?\n815239\t836312\t還有經過會議審查會議審查來最後因為我先到了主委這個報告如果有收到的話是不是也可以因為我想國人都對於核能安全非常關注這報告是不是能夠責要把商業機密或相關機密遮蔽但是至少防災係數等等的是可以讓國人知道的\n836852\t837072\t謝謝洪孟楷\n","txt":"主席謝謝麻煩請陳主委跟林次長好請主委跟次長謝謝好主委\n所以先跟你請教很多媒體朋友都關注到賴清德總統的就職演說沒有再提起非核家園那再加上國發會新任的主委也講說對核能的看法都是與核碩的董事長同董事長還有我們新任經濟部郭部長都理性的看待這件事情因為產業來說電夠不夠低碳電夠不夠以及淨零是關鍵的因素未來\n五年內我想台灣不管是半導體的擴廠AI人工智慧跟高階運算都是新興科技發展所以現在也需要評估中長期的一個用電成長那如果說真的有可能往產業規劃中長期的電力成長的話是不是代表現在政府重啟核能已經確定一旦重啟核能的話核安會應不應該要提高成績您怎麼看\n謝謝洪委員重啟這個核能這個是國家的能源政策那麼核安會是核能安全的管制機關剛好今天經濟部次長在這裡我想次長可能在比較回答這個政策我先請教一下如果說現階段來講到今年7月我們核三廠一號機也會\n是不是?\n是的 但我的理解我們會有新的機組上來 這個可能台電公司什麼樣的機組 來 次長馬上主委就推給經濟部了\n我們今年7月就會有新的機組了我想這個您剛剛提到一個用電需求規劃我們每年都在做而且就滾動在修正所以您委員所提到的部分核能三廠的一號機如果在今年的7月27號這個停止運轉我們事實上已經規劃好相關的一個這個相關的電來補進來那這個部分我跟您做報告火力發電包括我們的不是只有火力包括我們的再生能源那這個部分當然就是大潭的7號機跟9號\n我們現在再生能源對那另外一個部分就是太陽能跟那個離岸發電太陽能跟離岸發電但是發電的這個價格跟核電差多少當然我們現在的那個這個核能的價格跟太陽能跟離岸風力有一段的一個差差四倍啊\n剛剛本席看了一下台電的官網平均太陽能發電你有90%90%都是跟民間購電你的購電成本是一度電平均來講我沒有高估你們自己的報告你們購電成本一度電是4塊5\n核電的發電成本是1塊1到1塊5之間換言之如果說你今年7月即便你剛剛講是說要用再生能源來補足電補足這個3.1%的缺口你也要以高達4倍的價格的成本的代價來去因應不是嗎那再來現在新任的郭部長他有講到是說寬估未來中長期的用電成長\n代表我覺得郭部長也算是一個很務實跟產業的人所以他也講了未來3年到5年內台灣在AI高科技運算的這一個階段跟競爭我們一定勢必要跑在前面要站在領先群 對不對所以我們台灣未來3到5年內的用電成長我們的需求有多大\n我跟那個委員報告事實上我剛剛提到說我們每年都在做這個用電的需求的評估那您剛剛提到我們郭部長也提到說產業在未來的AI需求事實上這幾年我們已經有把這個半導體跟AI需求的用電的需求加入到我們的用電的評估裡面那當然這個部分確實它的一個成長我們有看到我們成長需要多少的電力\n有媒體講是要三成對有沒有需要再比現在更多三成以上的電力沒有那麼高我想沒有那麼高的部分我想這個部分如果每年用平均的話大概頂多是大概2.7%增加可能到3%左右這樣子每年2.7到3平均我們原先一估的部分大概是2.7如果把這個AI跟這個半導體加進去我們現在已經在做精算不過初步的部分應該會大到\n平均每年還要增加三\n6.2%的核電也要shut down\n然後我們目前火力發電是火力全開了你的燃煤燃氣已經高達火力發電高達八成了你的再生能源又沒有辦法達到那兩成那台灣的電到底何去何從我們要繼續開火力發電你剛自己講啦我沒有高估啊你剛的話兩分鐘前一年3%以上五年就至少20%\n臺灣未來十年就是會有三成的電力成長那你又不要用核電你的再生能源有辦法在未來十年內可以成長三成嗎你的火力發電現在沒有要在任何一個地方除非你告訴我你未來十年內有選擇哪一個地方要再蓋火力電廠但是即便是要選擇蓋火力電廠一座電廠蓋好至少從\n完全都不講說可行性品顧還品一個電廠除了要開工到完工6年的時間所以你現在怎麼面對你的能源缺口\n委員講的都是相當的務實的一個這個說明我們也是依據這個部分在做相關的一個規劃事實上這些電力的需求做規模之後我們規劃就如剛剛您所說的事實上我們從比較潔淨的天然氣跟再生能源部分做最大的一個這個增加的一個這個設置那這個每一年的那個這個相關的再生能源跟這個火力發電的燃氣我們都有明確的一個設置\n因為看起來賴總統也沒有提說非核家園嘛過去2016、2020蔡英文總統是把非核家園都當作神主牌賴清德總統沒有提啊經濟部會不會主動提核電延役不管是核二廠延役或者是核三廠一號機在7月以前要延役\n會不會主動提出法?\n會否主動請現在執政黨的委員來提修法?我們都會\n我理解過去怎麼處理就怎麼處理尤其是我們看到不管是新北市政府在本席所屬的核一廠在近期內這個月也會提出核一廠的室外乾式儲存的水保證照因此相關的動工新建等等應該時程都會掌握嗎?\n所以本席現在在提到的是說這個是一個負責任的態度現在主事機關以及我們的政府是經濟部你們這邊要去做處理不是什麼責任都是推給立法院來 諸位我在請教喔也一樣\n面對外界越來越多的這個重啟核電的呼籲啊我想和安會有沒有做過砂盤推演因為剛有提到不管是法規的問題不管是相關的部分但如果說現在是政府政策看到我們台灣有能源缺口確實有要重啟\n我當然本席第一安全一定最重要第二一定是要讓大家能夠社會共識但是如果說現在政府的政策就是想要往這邊推你不能說只是丟給說立法院說啊立法院要修法那如果說立法院修法的話也應該要由主事者這邊來負起責任啊\n有沒有做過砂盤推演那個我跟委員報告核安會我剛才在PowerPoint裡面講得很清楚他跟美國的核管會NRC跟日本的原子力規制委員會NRA是一模一樣的他就是負責獨立審查安全的管制機關所以他不負責能源的政策所以你的意思假設本席現在聽得出來你的意思就是說只要\n不管是台電不管是經濟部政府沒有提出研議的需求我們這邊都不會再去評估或是審查到底現在夠不夠安全經濟部或是相關的政府單位也會詢問核安會的意見到底現在這些不管是核二廠核三廠的研議有沒有安全的部分嗎\n最近有看到核電廠的審查報告2011年當時的一個福島電廠之後不就有做震災報告嗎那到現在媒體5月12號的新聞報導核安會還在等台電的審查報告\n十多年過去了\n核能會為什麼還在等報告?\n所以這個是一個非常長的process那麼最近他們審完那麼台電這邊有一些報告那目前在做國外的委員的審查那麼所以通常這報告要多久時間這個可能台電應該是也很快\n來你剛剛主委你講說2013我就以最寬估啊2011發生福島核災之後你們就開始要求了就2013 14要求他做這個審查報告到現在是2024欸10年了欸10年改朝換代多少了總統都從馬英九變蔡英文變賴清德了結果審查報告還沒拿到還沒出來\n報告委員大概因為那整個過程要非常冗長沒有問題你用冗長都沒有問題我只問這個報告合理來講 核安會你是監督機關合理來講這報告要多久出來合理來講 國際上合理來講一個報告多久出來\n這個的報告基本上就是要這麼長,因為他...這麼長是多長?10年?報告目前來講因為他有分有三個階段那完整的報告目前來看大概只有美國跟台灣有在做\n那其中呢?台灣是從2015開始做2015到現在也10年了嘛目前來講我們已經到第三階段最後一階段目前在做所謂國際同業的這個審查的這個階段好所以這個報告什麼時候會出來?\n因為這個報告裡面有包含防災防震以及相關核能安全的部分嘛這報告什麼時候會出來?台電的完整的報告呢大概目前已經完成了現在就在等國際的這個同業的這個審查我們預估大概應該在今年核三在今年年底那核二應該在明年的明年初大概可以出來今年一底明年初所以到時候這個報告也可以完整的讓國人知道嗎?\n還有經過會議審查會議審查來最後因為我先到了主委這個報告如果有收到的話是不是也可以因為我想國人都對於核能安全非常關注這報告是不是能夠責要把商業機密或相關機密遮蔽但是至少防災係數等等的是可以讓國人知道的\n謝謝洪孟楷\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.200 --> 00:17.908\n主 席 謝 謝 麻 煩 請 陳 主 委 跟 林 次 長 好 請 主 委 跟 次 長 謝 謝 好 主 委\n\n00:20.182 --> 00:43.391\n所 以 先 跟 你 請 教 很 多 媒 體 朋 友 都 關 注 到 賴 清 德 總 統 的 就 職 演 說 沒 有 再 提 起 非 核 家 園 那 再 加 上 國 發 會 新 任 的 主 委 也 講 說 對 核 能 的 看 法 都 是 與 核 碩 的 董 事 長 同 董 事 長 還 有 我 們 新 任 經 濟 部 郭 部 長 都 理 性 的 看 待 這 件 事 情 因 為 產 業 來 說 電 夠 不 夠 低 碳 電 夠 不 夠 以 及 淨 零 是 關 鍵 的 因 素 未 來\n\n00:49.634 --> 01:16.258\n五 年 內 我 想 台 灣 不 管 是 半 導 體 的 擴 廠 A I 人 工 智 慧 跟 高 階 運 算 都 是 新 興 科 技 發 展 所 以 現 在 也 需 要 評 估 中 長 期 的 一 個 用 電 成 長 那 如 果 說 真 的 有 可 能 往 產 業 規 劃 中 長 期 的 電 力 成 長 的 話 是 不 是 代 表 現 在 政 府 重 啟 核 能 已 經 確 定 一 旦 重 啟 核 能 的 話 核 安 會 應 不 應 該 要 提 高 成 績 您 怎 麼 看\n\n01:19.560 --> 01:44.516\n謝 謝 洪 委 員 重 啟 這 個 核 能 這 個 是 國 家 的 能 源 政 策 那 麼 核 安 會 是 核 能 安 全 的 管 制 機 關 剛 好 今 天 經 濟 部 次 長 在 這 裡 我 想 次 長 可 能 在 比 較 回 答 這 個 政 策 我 先 請 教 一 下 如 果 說 現 階 段 來 講 到 今 年 7 月 我 們 核 三 廠 一 號 機 也 會\n\n01:46.343 --> 01:46.563\n是 不 是 ?\n\n02:15.912 --> 02:24.885\n是 的 但 我 的 理 解 我 們 會 有 新 的 機 組 上 來 這 個 可 能 台 電 公 司 什 麼 樣 的 機 組 來 次 長 馬 上 主 委 就 推 給 經 濟 部 了\n\n02:27.645 --> 02:55.896\n我 們 今 年 7 月 就 會 有 新 的 機 組 了 我 想 這 個 您 剛 剛 提 到 一 個 用 電 需 求 規 劃 我 們 每 年 都 在 做 而 且 就 滾 動 在 修 正 所 以 您 委 員 所 提 到 的 部 分 核 能 三 廠 的 一 號 機 如 果 在 今 年 的 7 月 2 7 號 這 個 停 止 運 轉 我 們 事 實 上 已 經 規 劃 好 相 關 的 一 個 這 個 相 關 的 電 來 補 進 來 那 這 個 部 分 我 跟 您 做 報 告 火 力 發 電 包 括 我 們 的 不 是 只 有 火 力 包 括 我 們 的 再 生 能 源 那 這 個 部 分 當 然 就 是 大 潭 的 7 號 機 跟 9 號\n\n02:57.056 --> 03:15.562\n我 們 現 在 再 生 能 源 對 那 另 外 一 個 部 分 就 是 太 陽 能 跟 那 個 離 岸 發 電 太 陽 能 跟 離 岸 發 電 但 是 發 電 的 這 個 價 格 跟 核 電 差 多 少 當 然 我 們 現 在 的 那 個 這 個 核 能 的 價 格 跟 太 陽 能 跟 離 岸 風 力 有 一 段 的 一 個 差 差 四 倍 啊\n\n03:17.631 --> 03:33.412\n剛 剛 本 席 看 了 一 下 台 電 的 官 網 平 均 太 陽 能 發 電 你 有 9 0 % 9 0 % 都 是 跟 民 間 購 電 你 的 購 電 成 本 是 一 度 電 平 均 來 講 我 沒 有 高 估 你 們 自 己 的 報 告 你 們 購 電 成 本 一 度 電 是 4 塊 5\n\n03:35.254 --> 03:58.855\n核 電 的 發 電 成 本 是 1 塊 1 到 1 塊 5 之 間 換 言 之 如 果 說 你 今 年 7 月 即 便 你 剛 剛 講 是 說 要 用 再 生 能 源 來 補 足 電 補 足 這 個 3 . 1 % 的 缺 口 你 也 要 以 高 達 4 倍 的 價 格 的 成 本 的 代 價 來 去 因 應 不 是 嗎 那 再 來 現 在 新 任 的 郭 部 長 他 有 講 到 是 說 寬 估 未 來 中 長 期 的 用 電 成 長\n\n03:59.844 --> 04:21.329\n代 表 我 覺 得 郭 部 長 也 算 是 一 個 很 務 實 跟 產 業 的 人 所 以 他 也 講 了 未 來 3 年 到 5 年 內 台 灣 在 A I 高 科 技 運 算 的 這 一 個 階 段 跟 競 爭 我 們 一 定 勢 必 要 跑 在 前 面 要 站 在 領 先 群 對 不 對 所 以 我 們 台 灣 未 來 3 到 5 年 內 的 用 電 成 長 我 們 的 需 求 有 多 大\n\n04:22.745 --> 04:45.955\n我 跟 那 個 委 員 報 告 事 實 上 我 剛 剛 提 到 說 我 們 每 年 都 在 做 這 個 用 電 的 需 求 的 評 估 那 您 剛 剛 提 到 我 們 郭 部 長 也 提 到 說 產 業 在 未 來 的 A I 需 求 事 實 上 這 幾 年 我 們 已 經 有 把 這 個 半 導 體 跟 A I 需 求 的 用 電 的 需 求 加 入 到 我 們 的 用 電 的 評 估 裡 面 那 當 然 這 個 部 分 確 實 它 的 一 個 成 長 我 們 有 看 到 我 們 成 長 需 要 多 少 的 電 力\n\n04:47.115 --> 05:12.102\n有 媒 體 講 是 要 三 成 對 有 沒 有 需 要 再 比 現 在 更 多 三 成 以 上 的 電 力 沒 有 那 麼 高 我 想 沒 有 那 麼 高 的 部 分 我 想 這 個 部 分 如 果 每 年 用 平 均 的 話 大 概 頂 多 是 大 概 2 . 7 % 增 加 可 能 到 3 % 左 右 這 樣 子 每 年 2 . 7 到 3 平 均 我 們 原 先 一 估 的 部 分 大 概 是 2 . 7 如 果 把 這 個 A I 跟 這 個 半 導 體 加 進 去 我 們 現 在 已 經 在 做 精 算 不 過 初 步 的 部 分 應 該 會 大 到\n\n05:14.241 --> 05:14.862\n平 均 每 年 還 要 增 加 三\n\n05:20.589 --> 05:23.471\n6 . 2 % 的 核 電 也 要 s h u t d o w n\n\n05:49.110 --> 06:15.450\n然 後 我 們 目 前 火 力 發 電 是 火 力 全 開 了 你 的 燃 煤 燃 氣 已 經 高 達 火 力 發 電 高 達 八 成 了 你 的 再 生 能 源 又 沒 有 辦 法 達 到 那 兩 成 那 台 灣 的 電 到 底 何 去 何 從 我 們 要 繼 續 開 火 力 發 電 你 剛 自 己 講 啦 我 沒 有 高 估 啊 你 剛 的 話 兩 分 鐘 前 一 年 3 % 以 上 五 年 就 至 少 2 0 %\n\n06:20.782 --> 06:44.733\n臺 灣 未 來 十 年 就 是 會 有 三 成 的 電 力 成 長 那 你 又 不 要 用 核 電 你 的 再 生 能 源 有 辦 法 在 未 來 十 年 內 可 以 成 長 三 成 嗎 你 的 火 力 發 電 現 在 沒 有 要 在 任 何 一 個 地 方 除 非 你 告 訴 我 你 未 來 十 年 內 有 選 擇 哪 一 個 地 方 要 再 蓋 火 力 電 廠 但 是 即 便 是 要 選 擇 蓋 火 力 電 廠 一 座 電 廠 蓋 好 至 少 從\n\n06:46.021 --> 06:56.158\n完 全 都 不 講 說 可 行 性 品 顧 還 品 一 個 電 廠 除 了 要 開 工 到 完 工 6 年 的 時 間 所 以 你 現 在 怎 麼 面 對 你 的 能 源 缺 口\n\n06:56.890 --> 07:24.620\n委 員 講 的 都 是 相 當 的 務 實 的 一 個 這 個 說 明 我 們 也 是 依 據 這 個 部 分 在 做 相 關 的 一 個 規 劃 事 實 上 這 些 電 力 的 需 求 做 規 模 之 後 我 們 規 劃 就 如 剛 剛 您 所 說 的 事 實 上 我 們 從 比 較 潔 淨 的 天 然 氣 跟 再 生 能 源 部 分 做 最 大 的 一 個 這 個 增 加 的 一 個 這 個 設 置 那 這 個 每 一 年 的 那 個 這 個 相 關 的 再 生 能 源 跟 這 個 火 力 發 電 的 燃 氣 我 們 都 有 明 確 的 一 個 設 置\n\n07:25.800 --> 07:41.909\n因 為 看 起 來 賴 總 統 也 沒 有 提 說 非 核 家 園 嘛 過 去 2 0 1 6 、 2 0 2 0 蔡 英 文 總 統 是 把 非 核 家 園 都 當 作 神 主 牌 賴 清 德 總 統 沒 有 提 啊 經 濟 部 會 不 會 主 動 提 核 電 延 役 不 管 是 核 二 廠 延 役 或 者 是 核 三 廠 一 號 機 在 7 月 以 前 要 延 役\n\n07:42.509 --> 07:42.829\n會 不 會 主 動 提 出 法 ?\n\n08:04.091 --> 08:05.112\n會 否 主 動 請 現 在 執 政 黨 的 委 員 來 提 修 法 ? 我 們 都 會\n\n08:20.009 --> 08:40.105\n我 理 解 過 去 怎 麼 處 理 就 怎 麼 處 理 尤 其 是 我 們 看 到 不 管 是 新 北 市 政 府 在 本 席 所 屬 的 核 一 廠 在 近 期 內 這 個 月 也 會 提 出 核 一 廠 的 室 外 乾 式 儲 存 的 水 保 證 照 因 此 相 關 的 動 工 新 建 等 等 應 該 時 程 都 會 掌 握 嗎 ?\n\n08:41.902 --> 09:00.784\n所 以 本 席 現 在 在 提 到 的 是 說 這 個 是 一 個 負 責 任 的 態 度 現 在 主 事 機 關 以 及 我 們 的 政 府 是 經 濟 部 你 們 這 邊 要 去 做 處 理 不 是 什 麼 責 任 都 是 推 給 立 法 院 來 諸 位 我 在 請 教 喔 也 一 樣\n\n09:02.847 --> 09:19.070\n面 對 外 界 越 來 越 多 的 這 個 重 啟 核 電 的 呼 籲 啊 我 想 和 安 會 有 沒 有 做 過 砂 盤 推 演 因 為 剛 有 提 到 不 管 是 法 規 的 問 題 不 管 是 相 關 的 部 分 但 如 果 說 現 在 是 政 府 政 策 看 到 我 們 台 灣 有 能 源 缺 口 確 實 有 要 重 啟\n\n09:20.251 --> 09:37.550\n我 當 然 本 席 第 一 安 全 一 定 最 重 要 第 二 一 定 是 要 讓 大 家 能 夠 社 會 共 識 但 是 如 果 說 現 在 政 府 的 政 策 就 是 想 要 往 這 邊 推 你 不 能 說 只 是 丟 給 說 立 法 院 說 啊 立 法 院 要 修 法 那 如 果 說 立 法 院 修 法 的 話 也 應 該 要 由 主 事 者 這 邊 來 負 起 責 任 啊\n\n09:38.722 --> 10:06.563\n有 沒 有 做 過 砂 盤 推 演 那 個 我 跟 委 員 報 告 核 安 會 我 剛 才 在 P o w e r P o i n t 裡 面 講 得 很 清 楚 他 跟 美 國 的 核 管 會 N R C 跟 日 本 的 原 子 力 規 制 委 員 會 N R A 是 一 模 一 樣 的 他 就 是 負 責 獨 立 審 查 安 全 的 管 制 機 關 所 以 他 不 負 責 能 源 的 政 策 所 以 你 的 意 思 假 設 本 席 現 在 聽 得 出 來 你 的 意 思 就 是 說 只 要\n\n10:07.324 --> 10:29.079\n不 管 是 台 電 不 管 是 經 濟 部 政 府 沒 有 提 出 研 議 的 需 求 我 們 這 邊 都 不 會 再 去 評 估 或 是 審 查 到 底 現 在 夠 不 夠 安 全 經 濟 部 或 是 相 關 的 政 府 單 位 也 會 詢 問 核 安 會 的 意 見 到 底 現 在 這 些 不 管 是 核 二 廠 核 三 廠 的 研 議 有 沒 有 安 全 的 部 分 嗎\n\n10:30.109 --> 10:34.611\n最 近 有 看 到 核 電 廠 的 審 查 報 告 2 0 1 1 年 當 時 的 一 個 福 島 電 廠 之 後 不 就 有 做 震 災 報 告 嗎 那 到 現 在 媒 體 5 月 1 2 號 的 新 聞 報 導 核 安 會 還 在 等 台 電 的 審 查 報 告\n\n10:58.700 --> 10:59.753\n十 多 年 過 去 了\n\n11:00.711 --> 11:01.752\n核 能 會 為 什 麼 還 在 等 報 告 ?\n\n11:30.931 --> 11:46.999\n所 以 這 個 是 一 個 非 常 長 的 p r o c e s s 那 麼 最 近 他 們 審 完 那 麼 台 電 這 邊 有 一 些 報 告 那 目 前 在 做 國 外 的 委 員 的 審 查 那 麼 所 以 通 常 這 報 告 要 多 久 時 間 這 個 可 能 台 電 應 該 是 也 很 快\n\n11:48.687 --> 12:10.136\n來 你 剛 剛 主 委 你 講 說 2 0 1 3 我 就 以 最 寬 估 啊 2 0 1 1 發 生 福 島 核 災 之 後 你 們 就 開 始 要 求 了 就 2 0 1 3 1 4 要 求 他 做 這 個 審 查 報 告 到 現 在 是 2 0 2 4 欸 1 0 年 了 欸 1 0 年 改 朝 換 代 多 少 了 總 統 都 從 馬 英 九 變 蔡 英 文 變 賴 清 德 了 結 果 審 查 報 告 還 沒 拿 到 還 沒 出 來\n\n12:12.947 --> 12:26.393\n報 告 委 員 大 概 因 為 那 整 個 過 程 要 非 常 冗 長 沒 有 問 題 你 用 冗 長 都 沒 有 問 題 我 只 問 這 個 報 告 合 理 來 講 核 安 會 你 是 監 督 機 關 合 理 來 講 這 報 告 要 多 久 出 來 合 理 來 講 國 際 上 合 理 來 講 一 個 報 告 多 久 出 來\n\n12:34.336 --> 12:50.603\n這 個 的 報 告 基 本 上 就 是 要 這 麼 長 , 因 為 他 . . . 這 麼 長 是 多 長 ? 1 0 年 ? 報 告 目 前 來 講 因 為 他 有 分 有 三 個 階 段 那 完 整 的 報 告 目 前 來 看 大 概 只 有 美 國 跟 台 灣 有 在 做\n\n12:51.423 --> 13:04.745\n那 其 中 呢 ? 台 灣 是 從 2 0 1 5 開 始 做 2 0 1 5 到 現 在 也 1 0 年 了 嘛 目 前 來 講 我 們 已 經 到 第 三 階 段 最 後 一 階 段 目 前 在 做 所 謂 國 際 同 業 的 這 個 審 查 的 這 個 階 段 好 所 以 這 個 報 告 什 麼 時 候 會 出 來 ?\n\n13:07.112 --> 13:33.280\n因 為 這 個 報 告 裡 面 有 包 含 防 災 防 震 以 及 相 關 核 能 安 全 的 部 分 嘛 這 報 告 什 麼 時 候 會 出 來 ? 台 電 的 完 整 的 報 告 呢 大 概 目 前 已 經 完 成 了 現 在 就 在 等 國 際 的 這 個 同 業 的 這 個 審 查 我 們 預 估 大 概 應 該 在 今 年 核 三 在 今 年 年 底 那 核 二 應 該 在 明 年 的 明 年 初 大 概 可 以 出 來 今 年 一 底 明 年 初 所 以 到 時 候 這 個 報 告 也 可 以 完 整 的 讓 國 人 知 道 嗎 ?\n\n13:35.239 --> 13:56.312\n還 有 經 過 會 議 審 查 會 議 審 查 來 最 後 因 為 我 先 到 了 主 委 這 個 報 告 如 果 有 收 到 的 話 是 不 是 也 可 以 因 為 我 想 國 人 都 對 於 核 能 安 全 非 常 關 注 這 報 告 是 不 是 能 夠 責 要 把 商 業 機 密 或 相 關 機 密 遮 蔽 但 是 至 少 防 災 係 數 等 等 的 是 可 以 讓 國 人 知 道 的\n\n13:56.852 --> 13:57.072\n謝 謝 洪 孟 楷\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.2,"end":17.908,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請陳主委跟林次長好請主委跟次長謝謝好主委"},{"start":20.182,"end":43.391,"text":"所以先跟你請教很多媒體朋友都關注到賴清德總統的就職演說沒有再提起非核家園那再加上國發會新任的主委也講說對核能的看法都是與核碩的董事長同董事長還有我們新任經濟部郭部長都理性的看待這件事情因為產業來說電夠不夠低碳電夠不夠以及淨零是關鍵的因素未來"},{"start":49.634,"end":76.258,"text":"五年內我想台灣不管是半導體的擴廠AI人工智慧跟高階運算都是新興科技發展所以現在也需要評估中長期的一個用電成長那如果說真的有可能往產業規劃中長期的電力成長的話是不是代表現在政府重啟核能已經確定一旦重啟核能的話核安會應不應該要提高成績您怎麼看"},{"start":79.56,"end":104.516,"text":"謝謝洪委員重啟這個核能這個是國家的能源政策那麼核安會是核能安全的管制機關剛好今天經濟部次長在這裡我想次長可能在比較回答這個政策我先請教一下如果說現階段來講到今年7月我們核三廠一號機也會"},{"start":106.343,"end":106.563,"text":"是不是?"},{"start":135.912,"end":144.885,"text":"是的 但我的理解我們會有新的機組上來 這個可能台電公司什麼樣的機組 來 次長馬上主委就推給經濟部了"},{"start":147.645,"end":175.896,"text":"我們今年7月就會有新的機組了我想這個您剛剛提到一個用電需求規劃我們每年都在做而且就滾動在修正所以您委員所提到的部分核能三廠的一號機如果在今年的7月27號這個停止運轉我們事實上已經規劃好相關的一個這個相關的電來補進來那這個部分我跟您做報告火力發電包括我們的不是只有火力包括我們的再生能源那這個部分當然就是大潭的7號機跟9號"},{"start":177.056,"end":195.562,"text":"我們現在再生能源對那另外一個部分就是太陽能跟那個離岸發電太陽能跟離岸發電但是發電的這個價格跟核電差多少當然我們現在的那個這個核能的價格跟太陽能跟離岸風力有一段的一個差差四倍啊"},{"start":197.631,"end":213.412,"text":"剛剛本席看了一下台電的官網平均太陽能發電你有90%90%都是跟民間購電你的購電成本是一度電平均來講我沒有高估你們自己的報告你們購電成本一度電是4塊5"},{"start":215.254,"end":238.855,"text":"核電的發電成本是1塊1到1塊5之間換言之如果說你今年7月即便你剛剛講是說要用再生能源來補足電補足這個3.1%的缺口你也要以高達4倍的價格的成本的代價來去因應不是嗎那再來現在新任的郭部長他有講到是說寬估未來中長期的用電成長"},{"start":239.844,"end":261.329,"text":"代表我覺得郭部長也算是一個很務實跟產業的人所以他也講了未來3年到5年內台灣在AI高科技運算的這一個階段跟競爭我們一定勢必要跑在前面要站在領先群 對不對所以我們台灣未來3到5年內的用電成長我們的需求有多大"},{"start":262.745,"end":285.955,"text":"我跟那個委員報告事實上我剛剛提到說我們每年都在做這個用電的需求的評估那您剛剛提到我們郭部長也提到說產業在未來的AI需求事實上這幾年我們已經有把這個半導體跟AI需求的用電的需求加入到我們的用電的評估裡面那當然這個部分確實它的一個成長我們有看到我們成長需要多少的電力"},{"start":287.115,"end":312.102,"text":"有媒體講是要三成對有沒有需要再比現在更多三成以上的電力沒有那麼高我想沒有那麼高的部分我想這個部分如果每年用平均的話大概頂多是大概2.7%增加可能到3%左右這樣子每年2.7到3平均我們原先一估的部分大概是2.7如果把這個AI跟這個半導體加進去我們現在已經在做精算不過初步的部分應該會大到"},{"start":314.241,"end":314.862,"text":"平均每年還要增加三"},{"start":320.589,"end":323.471,"text":"6.2%的核電也要shut down"},{"start":349.11,"end":375.45,"text":"然後我們目前火力發電是火力全開了你的燃煤燃氣已經高達火力發電高達八成了你的再生能源又沒有辦法達到那兩成那台灣的電到底何去何從我們要繼續開火力發電你剛自己講啦我沒有高估啊你剛的話兩分鐘前一年3%以上五年就至少20%"},{"start":380.782,"end":404.733,"text":"臺灣未來十年就是會有三成的電力成長那你又不要用核電你的再生能源有辦法在未來十年內可以成長三成嗎你的火力發電現在沒有要在任何一個地方除非你告訴我你未來十年內有選擇哪一個地方要再蓋火力電廠但是即便是要選擇蓋火力電廠一座電廠蓋好至少從"},{"start":406.021,"end":416.158,"text":"完全都不講說可行性品顧還品一個電廠除了要開工到完工6年的時間所以你現在怎麼面對你的能源缺口"},{"start":416.89,"end":444.62,"text":"委員講的都是相當的務實的一個這個說明我們也是依據這個部分在做相關的一個規劃事實上這些電力的需求做規模之後我們規劃就如剛剛您所說的事實上我們從比較潔淨的天然氣跟再生能源部分做最大的一個這個增加的一個這個設置那這個每一年的那個這個相關的再生能源跟這個火力發電的燃氣我們都有明確的一個設置"},{"start":445.8,"end":461.909,"text":"因為看起來賴總統也沒有提說非核家園嘛過去2016、2020蔡英文總統是把非核家園都當作神主牌賴清德總統沒有提啊經濟部會不會主動提核電延役不管是核二廠延役或者是核三廠一號機在7月以前要延役"},{"start":462.509,"end":462.829,"text":"會不會主動提出法?"},{"start":484.091,"end":485.112,"text":"會否主動請現在執政黨的委員來提修法?我們都會"},{"start":500.009,"end":520.105,"text":"我理解過去怎麼處理就怎麼處理尤其是我們看到不管是新北市政府在本席所屬的核一廠在近期內這個月也會提出核一廠的室外乾式儲存的水保證照因此相關的動工新建等等應該時程都會掌握嗎?"},{"start":521.902,"end":540.784,"text":"所以本席現在在提到的是說這個是一個負責任的態度現在主事機關以及我們的政府是經濟部你們這邊要去做處理不是什麼責任都是推給立法院來 諸位我在請教喔也一樣"},{"start":542.847,"end":559.07,"text":"面對外界越來越多的這個重啟核電的呼籲啊我想和安會有沒有做過砂盤推演因為剛有提到不管是法規的問題不管是相關的部分但如果說現在是政府政策看到我們台灣有能源缺口確實有要重啟"},{"start":560.251,"end":577.55,"text":"我當然本席第一安全一定最重要第二一定是要讓大家能夠社會共識但是如果說現在政府的政策就是想要往這邊推你不能說只是丟給說立法院說啊立法院要修法那如果說立法院修法的話也應該要由主事者這邊來負起責任啊"},{"start":578.722,"end":606.563,"text":"有沒有做過砂盤推演那個我跟委員報告核安會我剛才在PowerPoint裡面講得很清楚他跟美國的核管會NRC跟日本的原子力規制委員會NRA是一模一樣的他就是負責獨立審查安全的管制機關所以他不負責能源的政策所以你的意思假設本席現在聽得出來你的意思就是說只要"},{"start":607.324,"end":629.079,"text":"不管是台電不管是經濟部政府沒有提出研議的需求我們這邊都不會再去評估或是審查到底現在夠不夠安全經濟部或是相關的政府單位也會詢問核安會的意見到底現在這些不管是核二廠核三廠的研議有沒有安全的部分嗎"},{"start":630.109,"end":634.611,"text":"最近有看到核電廠的審查報告2011年當時的一個福島電廠之後不就有做震災報告嗎那到現在媒體5月12號的新聞報導核安會還在等台電的審查報告"},{"start":658.7,"end":659.753,"text":"十多年過去了"},{"start":660.711,"end":661.752,"text":"核能會為什麼還在等報告?"},{"start":690.931,"end":706.999,"text":"所以這個是一個非常長的process那麼最近他們審完那麼台電這邊有一些報告那目前在做國外的委員的審查那麼所以通常這報告要多久時間這個可能台電應該是也很快"},{"start":708.687,"end":730.136,"text":"來你剛剛主委你講說2013我就以最寬估啊2011發生福島核災之後你們就開始要求了就2013 14要求他做這個審查報告到現在是2024欸10年了欸10年改朝換代多少了總統都從馬英九變蔡英文變賴清德了結果審查報告還沒拿到還沒出來"},{"start":732.947,"end":746.393,"text":"報告委員大概因為那整個過程要非常冗長沒有問題你用冗長都沒有問題我只問這個報告合理來講 核安會你是監督機關合理來講這報告要多久出來合理來講 國際上合理來講一個報告多久出來"},{"start":754.336,"end":770.603,"text":"這個的報告基本上就是要這麼長,因為他...這麼長是多長?10年?報告目前來講因為他有分有三個階段那完整的報告目前來看大概只有美國跟台灣有在做"},{"start":771.423,"end":784.745,"text":"那其中呢?台灣是從2015開始做2015到現在也10年了嘛目前來講我們已經到第三階段最後一階段目前在做所謂國際同業的這個審查的這個階段好所以這個報告什麼時候會出來?"},{"start":787.112,"end":813.28,"text":"因為這個報告裡面有包含防災防震以及相關核能安全的部分嘛這報告什麼時候會出來?台電的完整的報告呢大概目前已經完成了現在就在等國際的這個同業的這個審查我們預估大概應該在今年核三在今年年底那核二應該在明年的明年初大概可以出來今年一底明年初所以到時候這個報告也可以完整的讓國人知道嗎?"},{"start":815.239,"end":836.312,"text":"還有經過會議審查會議審查來最後因為我先到了主委這個報告如果有收到的話是不是也可以因為我想國人都對於核能安全非常關注這報告是不是能夠責要把商業機密或相關機密遮蔽但是至少防災係數等等的是可以讓國人知道的"},{"start":836.852,"end":837.072,"text":"謝謝洪孟楷"}]}}}}