{"id":153179,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153179","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e13313a5246c801002ef3d0e137800dc086ea333bc5d453e1b1954c7f6e4539bc04505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:30:33 - 09:40:28","影片長度":"00:09:55","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":595,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T09:40:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T09:30:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":135,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時30分）謝謝主席，請經濟部林次長。"],["主席：請經濟部林次長。"],["林次長全能：委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：次長好。我們目前知道核一、核二都已經除役或是在除役當中，今年7月核三也會停機，興達跟麥寮電廠共4部機組也不再發電，剛好是夏季高峰用電的時候，你認為我們的供電會不會有危機？"],["林次長全能：我想我們已經準備好在相關的除役機組之後，新的機組上來，這個部分我剛剛已經講過，我們根據用電需求已經做好最好的準備，供給能量的準備。"],["柯委員志恩：我們還是一一來檢視是不是真的做好了，因為你們現在新增的發電機組都是燃氣的機組嘛！"],["林次長全能：也未必是燃氣，我剛剛報告過，我們的再生能源也是持續在增進中。"],["柯委員志恩：再生能源目前距離占比的目標其實還是滿低的，我們就先看這些燃氣機組，你所需要的天然氣，在第三接收站明年6月完工之前，請問天然氣要從哪裡取得？"],["林次長全能：目前有二座天然氣的儲存槽，一個是在臺中，另外一個是在高雄永安。"],["柯委員志恩：我知道你會這樣的回應，但是原來的舊機組目前為止也是沒有天然氣可以供發電啊，你的問題還是一樣的存在啊，因為我們要大量使用，2025年我們要大量的使用天然氣，但是我們現在所能夠儲能的空間其實都已經占滿了，所以你即使是使用這個舊的機組，你還是沒有氣可以來做這樣一個處理。"],["林次長全能：事實上，那是一個turn over的觀念，因為基本上儲槽就是那麼大，但是我們的運補，事實上，我們會以相關供電對天然氣的需求去做好相關運補的儲能。"],["柯委員志恩：好，我們就來看看，這是產業界所提出的非常大的問題，接下來還有非常多的問題，請問你們興達1號機跟大潭9號機可以在6月準時上線嗎？還有大潭7號機有沒有辦法在8月準時上線？目前來說。"],["林次長全能：這個部分就是在積極的進行當中。"],["柯委員志恩：有沒有辦法保證？"],["林次長全能：我想我們會按照我們所規劃的目標來努力達成。"],["柯委員志恩：其實，這個就是一個非常重要的，我告訴你，大家都在「剉咧等」啦！真的是，等一下我還會再就用電的部分跟次長請教。我們先來關心今天另外一個很大的重點喔，因為賴總統在就職演說喊出2050年要淨零排碳，但是你看看，核三廠的1號機7月停機、2號機明年5月除役，失去了核三的無碳電力，我們排碳將少降570萬噸，沒錯吧？幾乎占台電排碳的6%耶，沒錯喔？這是好事啊！但是次長，去年我國電力排碳係數降到0.494，但是根據我們電業法的規定，到2025年的時候，我們的電力排碳係數基準應該是0.424喔，我們還差0.07，看起來這個小數點後的數字好像很小，但是要降這0.07，以我們目前的排碳來說，需要20年的時間才有辦法達到耶！需要20年才有辦法達到，所以2050淨零排碳的政見會不會有機會實現？次長，你的評估？"],["林次長全能：我的評估是會實現的，為什麼這樣講？第一個部分，剛剛委員問到核三廠如果停機下來之後，它的排碳數會減少，但我跟您報告，我們的再生能源去年是發了267億度，我們今年會發到413億度左右，這就增加了將近一百多億度。"],["柯委員志恩：你一直在強調再生能源，再生能源當然是我們未來的方向，而再生能源所產生的電費，剛剛洪孟楷委員已經提到過了，我就不再贅述。我只能是要提醒，學者告訴我們的是，歐盟的電力排碳係數是0.24，臺灣是人家的一倍以上，連美國用電量這麼高也只有0.4。我比較關切的就是未來歐盟碳邊境稅的課徵，就是CBAM，出口業者使用的電力排碳係數會被納入，這是一個很嚴重的問題，歐盟的碳定價是每噸100美金，這個影響是非常大的。在核三廠除役之後，這到底會不會影響我們臺灣的進出口？我必須要提出來目前我們高雄的情況，以總排碳量來看，我們高雄是占20%，我們列為高碳排企業高達90%喔，我們的石化、鋼鐵，我們臺灣出口歐盟最大宗就是鋼鐵業，所以鋼鐵業會受到多少的影響？光是歐盟要做CBAM這樣一個策略來說，你怎麼來面對這樣的問題？"],["林次長全能：我想對於CBAM的部分，政府以及民間單位都積極的在進行中，我們也依照歐盟的部分，在去年10月提出去……"],["柯委員志恩：你覺得我們的產業界因為這個碳稅的課徵部分，我們預估要多付多少錢？你們有沒有去算過？"],["林次長全能：產業之間對於歐盟的CBAM，他們主要的處理方式就是節能，然後降低排碳這樣工作的推動……"],["柯委員志恩：我告訴你，這個影響非常大，好幾百億的稅！"],["林次長全能：當然，我們已經全力，從經濟部所有單位來協助產業因應CBAM的相關推動。"],["柯委員志恩：所以說呢？用你們現有的能源政策的話，是不是對產業界會造成非常多的影響？你們的部長，還有我們國發會的主委，他們都是來自產業界，所以就很清楚，現有的能源政策是沒有辦法能夠符合2050年淨零排碳的目標！我們來看一下，賴清德總統講之前是第一次能源轉型，我不曉得他轉到什麼部分，他還要強調說要啟動第二次，我不曉得你今天，次長，能源轉型的結果是什麼？第一次能源轉型，這是賴總統講的啊！"],["林次長全能：我想我們的能源轉型持續在進行中……"],["柯委員志恩：那是什麼？"],["林次長全能：總統是希望我們要有更多的積極思維來進行能源轉型的持續工作。"],["柯委員志恩：沒有！那麼第二次能源轉型指的又是什麼？這是賴總統提到的，請問成效是什麼？第二次的能源轉型是什麼？你會把核能當作是第二次能源轉型的一個主要方向嗎？"],["林次長全能：我想您剛剛提到的部分是總統所提到的第二次能源轉型，他有更進一步的論述是，要多元的綠能開發，另外一個部分要穩定供電，這個部分是我們在進行能源轉型的過程當中持續要進行的。"],["柯委員志恩：如果說這是我們的能源政策的話，不會新上任的這些人，包括國發會，還包括你們的部長都有特別提到，在520之前，他本來是講乾淨能源啦，後來馬上又說非核家園目標不變，然後環境部長也馬上說要遵守非核家園的政策。但是你會看到本委員會非常多委員所提出的法案可能都會打臉環境部所提到的環境基本法，你看看，這就是我們目前造成能源很大的問題，更不要說我們現在要發展AI。剛剛我聽了部長提到AI未來可用的部分，因為黃仁勳提到，可能會在臺南或高雄選擇一個地方來打造AI科技產業，它會是我們臺灣第二個護國神山，非常的歡迎，但是AI的耗電量，根據高盛的評估，我覺得次長你有點低估所需的發電量，我是根據高盛的評估，它說AI的電力需求在2023到2030年間將成長160%，而且2030將占美國總體電力的8%耶，這是很可怕的。美國的美林調查報告也指出，AI的電力需求量從2023到2028年間複合成長率是25%到33%；晶片龍頭ARM更警告，它幾乎耗掉美國將近4%的電力。我只能說，我們都希望AI，但是我們臺灣這個智慧科技島，我們的電網系統到底做好準備了沒有？我們整個能源的政策策略，面對這個新的科技發展，到底有沒有辦法來負荷這麼多的電力需求？這才是經濟部需要來做一個評估的。"],["林次長全能：謝謝委員的提醒，事實上，經濟部是隨時在把所需要的用電準備好，我們時時在做這個工作。"],["柯委員志恩：好啦，我只能說啦，你說隨時在準備，我也不知道是怎麼樣，我只問一個啦，美國就是因為面臨到這樣的問題，所以他們把核電作為應對AI高耗能非常重要的一個部分嘛，光是過去美國對核融合的投資已經超過59億美金，我們跟他們比起來，說實在的，我們在這一方面真的是落後滿多的啦！說到非核家園的部分，你有沒有相關的規劃？有沒有要跟其他國家合作？這是你必須要面對的問題啊！"],["林次長全能：技術的發展，我們一定會隨時的去掌握……"],["柯委員志恩：在哪裡啊？"],["林次長全能：在技術的發展過程當中……"],["柯委員志恩：連中研院的廖院長也是在掌握這個部分，可是他覺得這個過程來說，我們都還是在萌芽的階段。"],["林次長全能：工研院並不是我們主要核能的研究單位。"],["柯委員志恩：不是啦，中研院，對不起，是中研院的院長。"],["林次長全能：中研院？抱歉，我不太清楚，但這個部分……"],["柯委員志恩：那你們跟誰合作？你們有在做核融合技術的研發嗎？"],["林次長全能：剛剛我們……"],["柯委員志恩：到目前為止，我們投資多少錢在這裡？"],["林次長全能：核安會那邊有報告過，基本上……"],["柯委員志恩：我們投資多少錢在這裡？我們投資的錢跟其他像美國的先進科技相比，還有一段距離，然後我們還要發展AI及半導體，這些都是非常耗電、耗水、耗能源的部分，我們目前到底投資了多少錢在這個地方？經濟部有做這樣一個評估嗎？我們未來還要花多少錢在這個地方？"],["林次長全能：我們經濟部會隨時的關注、掌握。跟委員報告，我剛剛聽到核安會主委的報告裡面，有相關技術的掌握和處理。"],["柯委員志恩：你們隨時掌握，但是我們需要清楚的數據，因為你投資多少錢、能夠有多少的產能，這才是一個數字，數字才讓我們有一個評估的部分。經濟部，下一次如果我們有機會在這個地方碰面的時候，請你提供給我經費，透過經費跟國外的比較，我們才知道我們可以發展到什麼程度……"],["林次長全能：好，我們會詳細地提供。"],["柯委員志恩：而不是隨時在做評估，我需要數字，可以嗎？"],["林次長全能：可以。"],["柯委員志恩：好，謝謝。"],["林次長全能：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩委員，官員請回座，謝謝。"],["主席（柯委員志恩）：謝謝。","接下來請葛如鈞委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪申翰","陳秀寳","萬美玲","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","張嘉郡","陳培瑜","張智倫","林倩綺","羅智強","吳春城","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠\n延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00004"}},"transcript":{"id":"153179","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153179","tool":"pyannote","id":"153179-pyannote"},"job_id":"pySt1tajB12L4xK6","queued_at":"2024-05-30 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583.601, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"en\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,029 --> 00:00:09,021\n柯 志 恩 抓 委 柯 志 恩 委 員 質 詢 謝 謝 主 席 我 們 請 經 濟 部 的 林 次 長 請 經 濟 部 林 次 長\n\n2\n00:00:14,998 --> 00:00:33,131\n市 長 好 , 我 們 現 在 目 前 知 道 核 一 核 二 都 已 經 除 以 喔 , 或 是 在 除 以 當 中 那 我 們 今 年 七 月 核 三 也 會 至 停 機 那 我 們 的 興 達 跟 我 們 的 這 個 麥 寮 的 電 廠 共 四 部 機 組 我 們 也 不 再 發 電 那 剛 好 都 是 我 們 夏 季 的 這 個 高 峰 用 電 料 你 認 為 我 們 的 供 電 會 不 會 有 危 機\n\n3\n00:00:34,099 --> 00:00:52,128\n我 想 我 們 已 經 準 備 好 相 關 的 這 個 廚 藝 的 機 組 之 後 新 的 機 組 上 來 我 想 這 個 部 分 我 剛 剛 已 經 講 過 我 們 根 據 我 們 的 用 電 的 需 求 已 經 做 好 最 好 的 準 備 的 一 個 但 是 但 是 我 們 還 是 一 一 來 檢 視 是 不 是 真 的 做 好 因 為 你 們 現 在 新 增 的 發 電 機 組 都 是 燃 氣 的 機 組 嗎\n\n4\n00:00:53,148 --> 00:00:54,909\n您 所 需 要 天 然 氣 在 第 三 接 收 站 明 年 6 月 完 工 之 前 請 問 這 邊 要 從 哪 裡 取 得 ?\n\n5\n00:01:10,373 --> 00:01:20,482\n目 前 有 兩 座 天 然 氣 的 儲 存 草 一 個 是 在 台 中 另 外 一 個 是 在 高 雄 但 是 我 知 道 你 會 這 樣 的 回 應 因 為 你 不 要 說 因 為 原 來 的 舊 機 組 目 前 為 止 也 是 沒 有 天 然 氣 開 工 發 電 你 的 問 題 還 是 一 樣 的 存 在 因 為 我 們 的 我 們 要 大 量 使 用 2 0 2 5 年 我 們 要 大 量 的 使 用 天 然 氣 但 是 我 們 現 在 所 能 夠 儲 能 的 空 間 其 實 都 已 經 佔 滿 了 所 以 你 即 使 使 用 這 個 舊 的 機 組 你 還 是 沒 有 氣 可 以 來 做 一 個 這 樣 的 一 個 處 理\n\n6\n00:01:35,575 --> 00:01:38,796\n所 以 好 , 我 們 就 來 看 看 這 是 我 們 大 家 產 業 界 所 提 出 的 一 個 非 常 大 的 問 題 那 接 下 來 就 是 有 的 非 常 多 的 , 你 看 你 們 興 達 一 號 機 跟 大 潭 九 號 機 它 可 以 在 六 月 準 時 上 線 嗎 ? 還 有 你 這 個 七 號 機 有 沒 有 辦 法 在 八 月 準 時 上 線 ? 目 前 來 說\n\n7\n00:02:06,302 --> 00:02:25,314\n這 個 部 分 就 是 在 積 極 的 進 行 當 中 有 沒 有 辦 法 保 證 我 想 我 們 會 按 照 我 們 所 規 劃 的 目 標 來 努 力 達 成 其 實 這 個 就 是 一 個 非 常 重 要 的 我 告 訴 你 大 家 都 在 挫 雷 彈 啦 真 的 是 等 一 下 我 還 會 在 用 電 的 這 個 部 分 跟 次 長 請 教 我 們 先 來 關 心 今 天 另 外 一 個 很 大 的 一 個 重 點 因 為 賴 總 統 他 在 就 職 演 說 喊 出 的 這 個 2 0 5 0 年 當 中 他 要 做 個 淨 零 排 碳\n\n8\n00:02:30,777 --> 00:02:39,464\n那 我 們 你 看 看 核 三 廠 的 一 號 機 七 月 已 經 停 機 二 號 機 五 年 所 以 失 去 核 三 的 無 碳 電 力 我 們 這 個 排 碳 可 以 降 低 5 7 0 萬 噸 沒 錯 吧 幾 乎 佔 柴 電 的 排 碳 的 6 % 沒 錯 啊 這 個 部 分 佔 柴 電 這 是 好 事 啊 但 是\n\n9\n00:02:47,901 --> 00:02:51,082\n市 長 , 去 年 我 國 電 力 排 檔 的 系 數 降 到 0 . 4 9 4 但 是 根 據 我 們 電 業 法 你 到 2 0 2 5 0 的 時 候 我 們 的 排 檔 系 數 應 該 是 0 . 4 2 4 我 們 還 差 0 . 0 7 我 們 還 差 0 . 0 7 我 們 好 像 看 起 來 這 個 小 數 點 很 小 但 是 0 . 0 7 以 我 們 目 前 的 排 檔 來 說 的 話 需 要 2 0 年 時 間 才 有 辦 法 達 到 需 要 2 0 年 才 有 辦 法 達 到 所 以 2 0 5 0 的 淨 零 排 檔 的 政 見 會 不 會 有 機 會 實 現\n\n10\n00:03:15,189 --> 00:03:35,294\n市 長 您 的 評 估 我 的 評 估 是 會 實 現 的 為 什 麼 這 樣 講 呢 第 一 個 部 分 剛 剛 委 員 問 到 核 三 廠 如 果 停 機 下 來 的 時 候 它 的 那 個 排 蛋 數 減 少 當 然 我 跟 您 報 告 我 們 的 再 生 能 源 去 年 是 花 了 2 6 7 億 度 那 我 們 今 年 會 花 到 4 1 3 億 度 左 右\n\n11\n00:03:37,055 --> 00:03:47,641\n你 一 直 在 強 調 再 生 能 源 , 再 生 能 源 當 然 是 我 們 未 來 的 方 向 一 個 再 生 能 源 所 產 生 的 電 費 剛 剛 洪 孟 凱 委 員 已 經 提 到 的 我 就 不 再 贅 述 我 只 能 要 提 醒 學 者 來 告 訴 我 們 說 歐 盟 電 力 的 排 碳 係 數 是 0 . 2 4 那 台 灣 是 人 家 的 一 倍 以 上 連 美 國 用 電 量 這 麼 高 也 是 0 . 4 那 我 比 較 關 切 的 就 是 我 們 未 來 歐 盟 的 碳 邊 境 稅 的 課 徵 C B M 出 國 業 者 使 用 的 電 力 排 碳 係 數 會 被 納 入\n\n12\n00:04:03,090 --> 00:04:05,892\n這 是 一 個 很 嚴 重 的 問 題 歐 盟 的 定 價 是 每 噸 1 0 0 塊 美 金 這 影 響 是 非 常 大 的 那 你 看 到 核 三 長 除 役 之 後 呢 這 到 底 會 不 會 影 響 我 們 台 灣 的 這 個 進 出 口 我 必 須 要 提 出 來 我 們 目 前 汪 格 雄 這 個 總 排 碳 量 我 們 高 雄 是 佔 2 0 %\n\n13\n00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:26,285\n我 們 是 列 為 高 碳 排 的 企 業 高 達 9 0 % 我 們 的 石 化 我 們 的 鋼 鐵 然 後 我 們 台 灣 出 口 歐 盟 最 大 宗 就 是 鋼 鐵 業 所 以 鋼 鐵 業 可 以 受 到 多 好 大 的 影 響 光 是 我 們 這 個 歐 盟 的 要 做 這 個 C B A M 的 這 樣 子 的 一 個 策 略 來 說 你 怎 麼 來 面 對 這 樣 的 問 題\n\n14\n00:04:37,995 --> 00:04:46,645\n我 想 大 家 對 西 北 的 部 分 政 府 以 及 民 間 單 位 都 積 極 的 在 進 行 中 那 我 們 依 照 歐 盟 的 部 分 在 去 年 你 覺 得 我 們 的 產 業 界 會 因 為 要 派 出 這 個 碳 碳 稅 的 問 題 的 話 克 制 的 部 分 我 們 預 估 要 多 付 多 少 錢\n\n15\n00:05:11,118 --> 00:05:13,921\n所 以 說 你 們 如 果 用 現 有 的 這 個 能 源 的 政 策 的 話 其 實 對 產 業 界 會 造 成 非 常 多 的 影 響 所 以 當 你 們 的 部 長 還 有 包 括 我 們 這 個 國 發 會 他 們 都 是 來 自 這 個 產 業 就 很 清 楚 你 現 有 的 能 源 的 政 策 是 沒 有 辦 法\n\n16\n00:05:26,514 --> 00:05:42,281\n能 夠 符 合 你 2 0 5 0 年 進 行 排 談 的 部 分 嗎 ? 我 們 來 看 一 下 嘛 為 什 麼 你 們 這 麼 多 你 賴 清 德 總 統 講 的 是 第 一 次 能 源 轉 型 我 不 曉 得 要 轉 到 什 麼 部 分 還 想 要 做 我 們 這 第 二 次 我 不 曉 得 你 今 天 次 長 能 源 的 結 果 是 什 麼 第 一 次 能 源 轉 型 這 是 賴 總 統 講 的\n\n17\n00:05:44,489 --> 00:06:10,899\n我 想 我 們 的 能 源 轉 型 持 續 在 進 行 中 希 望 我 們 是 說 要 有 可 能 更 多 的 一 個 這 個 積 極 的 思 維 來 進 行 能 源 轉 型 沒 有 那 你 第 二 次 能 源 轉 型 指 的 又 是 什 麼 這 是 賴 總 統 提 到 的 啦 他 的 成 效 是 什 麼 第 二 次 能 源 轉 型 是 什 麼 你 會 把 核 能 當 作 是 第 二 次 能 源 轉 型 的 一 個 主 要 的 一 個 方 向 嗎 我 想 我 們 提 到 的 您 剛 剛 提 到 的 部 分 就 是 說 總 統 所 提 到 第 二 次 能 源 轉 型 他\n\n18\n00:06:11,559 --> 00:06:39,735\n有 更 進 一 步 的 論 述 是 提 到 說 要 多 元 的 綠 能 的 一 個 開 發 另 外 一 個 部 分 要 穩 定 供 電 這 個 部 分 是 我 們 在 進 行 能 源 轉 向 的 過 程 當 中 是 需 要 進 行 的 如 果 說 我 們 的 能 源 政 策 的 話 不 會 新 商 的 這 些 包 括 國 發 會 還 有 包 括 我 們 的 你 們 的 部 長 都 有 特 別 提 到 你 看 你 在 2 0 2 0 年 的 時 候 當 然 他 把 人 家 講 說 乾 淨 能 源 後 來 馬 上 就 說 非 核 家 園 目 標 不 變 然 後 你 的 環 境 部 長 也 馬 上 說 啊 也 沒 有 說 我 就 是 遵 守 這 個 非 核 的 家 園 但 是 你 會 看 到 我 們\n\n19\n00:06:40,615 --> 00:06:56,062\n本 委 員 會 非 常 多 委 員 所 提 出 的 法 案 可 能 都 會 打 點 這 個 環 境 部 裡 面 所 提 到 的 環 境 基 本 法 那 你 看 看 這 就 是 我 們 目 前 造 成 一 個 能 源 很 大 的 一 個 問 題 更 不 要 說 我 們 現 在 A I 那 剛 剛 我 剛 剛 聽 了 部 長 提 到 說 A I 未 來 可 用 的 部 分 因 為 我 們 的 王 仁 勳 提 到 可 能 會 在 台 南 或 高 雄 選 擇 一 個 地 方 來 變 成 A I 的 科 技 產 業 它 會 是 我 們 台 灣 第 二 個 的 護 國 神 山 非 常 的 歡 迎 但 是 A I 所 用 的 耗 電 量\n\n20\n00:07:09,688 --> 00:07:14,831\n高 盛 評 估 我 覺 得 次 長 你 有 點 低 估 可 用 的 發 電 量 我 是 根 據 高 盛 來 評 估 啊 他 說 A I 的 供 應 量 在 2 0 2 3 到 2 0 3 0 年 成 長 1 6 0 % 而 且 2 0 3 0 年 降 臨 美 國 總 體 的 電 力 是 8 % 這 是 很 可 怕 的 而 且 美 國 的 這 個 美 林 的 調 查 報 告 也 說 A I 的 需 求 量 到 2 0 2 3 到 2 0 2 8 年 復 合 成 長 率 是 2 5 到 3 3 今 天 的 龍 頭 的 A R M 更 警 告\n\n21\n00:07:38,404 --> 00:07:40,125\n謝 謝 委 員 的 提 醒 事 實 上 經 濟 部 是 隨 時 在 把 所 需 要 的 用 電 準 備 好 我 們 時 時 在 做 這 個 工 作\n\n22\n00:08:07,037 --> 00:08:34,699\n我 只 能 說 啦 你 隨 時 在 準 備 我 也 不 知 道 是 怎 麼 樣 我 只 問 一 個 啦 美 國 就 是 因 為 要 面 臨 這 樣 的 問 題 說 他 把 核 電 作 為 應 對 A I 高 核 能 的 非 常 重 要 的 一 項 的 一 個 部 分 嘛 光 是 過 去 的 美 國 就 對 這 個 核 融 核 的 這 個 投 資 已 經 超 過 5 9 億 美 金 喔 那 我 們 跟 他 們 來 比 起 來 我 們 說 實 在 這 一 方 面 真 的 是 比 較 是 落 後 蠻 多 的 啦 那 說 到 非 核 教 育 的 部 分 有 沒 有 相 關 的 規 劃 有 沒 有 跟 其 他 的 國 家 的 作 戰 合 作 其 實 你 必 須 要 面 對 的 問 題 啊\n\n23\n00:08:53,796 --> 00:09:13,491\n你 們 跟 誰 合 作 ? 你 們 有 在 做 這 個 核 融 合 技 術 的 研 發 嗎 ? 我 們 目 前 為 止 我 們 投 資 多 少 錢 在 這 裡 ? 我 們 投 資 多 少 錢 在 這 裡 ? 我 們 投 資 的 錢 跟 其 他 美 國 的 這 個 先 進 科 技 我 們 還 有 一 段 , 然 後 我 們 還 要 作 為 A I , 我 們 還 要 做 半 導 體 , 這 些 都 是 非 常 耗 電 , 耗 水 , 耗 能 源 的 這 個 部 分 , 我 們 到 底 目 前 投 資 了 多 少 錢 在 這 個 地 方 ?\n\n24\n00:09:15,340 --> 00:09:39,218\n經 濟 部 有 做 這 樣 的 一 個 評 估 嗎 ? 我 們 未 來 還 要 花 多 少 錢 在 這 個 地 方 ? 我 們 經 濟 部 會 隨 時 的 關 注 掌 握 那 我 跟 委 員 報 告 我 剛 剛 聽 那 個 我 們 核 安 會 主 委 的 報 告 裡 面 那 有 相 關 的 技 術 的 一 個 這 個 掌 握 你 們 隨 時 掌 握 但 是 我 們 需 要 清 楚 的 數 據 因 為 你 投 資 多 少 錢 能 夠 多 少 的 產 能 這 才 是 一 個 數 字 數 字 才 讓 我 們 有 一 個 評 估 的 部 分 我 期 望 經 濟 部 下 一 次 我 們 有 機 會 在 這 個 地 方 碰 面 的 時 候 請 你 提 供 給 我 經 費 透 過 經 費 跟 國 外 的\n\n25\n00:09:43,581 --> 00:09:43,601\n謝 謝 委 員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n29\t9021\t柯志恩 抓委 柯志恩委員質詢謝謝主席 我們請經濟部的林次長請經濟部林次長\n14998\t33131\t市長好,我們現在目前知道核一核二都已經除以喔,或是在除以當中那我們今年七月核三也會至停機那我們的興達跟我們的這個麥寮的電廠共四部機組我們也不再發電那剛好都是我們夏季的這個高峰用電料你認為我們的供電會不會有危機\n34099\t52128\t我想我們已經準備好相關的這個廚藝的機組之後新的機組上來我想這個部分我剛剛已經講過我們根據我們的用電的需求已經做好最好的準備的一個但是但是我們還是一一來檢視是不是真的做好因為你們現在新增的發電機組都是燃氣的機組嗎\n53148\t54909\t您所需要天然氣在第三接收站明年6月完工之前請問這邊要從哪裡取得?\n70373\t80482\t目前有兩座天然氣的儲存草一個是在台中另外一個是在高雄但是我知道你會這樣的回應因為你不要說因為原來的舊機組目前為止也是沒有天然氣開工發電你的問題還是一樣的存在因為我們的我們要大量使用2025年我們要大量的使用天然氣但是我們現在所能夠儲能的空間其實都已經佔滿了所以你即使使用這個舊的機組你還是沒有氣可以來做一個這樣的一個處理\n95575\t98796\t所以好,我們就來看看這是我們大家產業界所提出的一個非常大的問題那接下來就是有的非常多的,你看你們興達一號機跟大潭九號機它可以在六月準時上線嗎?還有你這個七號機有沒有辦法在八月準時上線?目前來說\n126302\t145314\t這個部分就是在積極的進行當中有沒有辦法保證我想我們會按照我們所規劃的目標來努力達成其實這個就是一個非常重要的我告訴你大家都在挫雷彈啦真的是等一下我還會在用電的這個部分跟次長請教我們先來關心今天另外一個很大的一個重點因為賴總統他在就職演說喊出的這個2050年當中他要做個淨零排碳\n150777\t159464\t那我們你看看核三廠的一號機七月已經停機二號機五年所以失去核三的無碳電力我們這個排碳可以降低570萬噸沒錯吧幾乎佔柴電的排碳的6%沒錯啊這個部分佔柴電這是好事啊但是\n167901\t171082\t市長,去年我國電力排檔的系數降到0.494但是根據我們電業法你到20250的時候我們的排檔系數應該是0.424我們還差0.07我們還差0.07我們好像看起來這個小數點很小但是0.07以我們目前的排檔來說的話需要20年時間才有辦法達到需要20年才有辦法達到所以2050的淨零排檔的政見會不會有機會實現\n195189\t215294\t市長您的評估我的評估是會實現的為什麼這樣講呢第一個部分剛剛委員問到核三廠如果停機下來的時候它的那個排蛋數減少當然我跟您報告我們的再生能源去年是花了267億度那我們今年會花到413億度左右\n217055\t227641\t你一直在強調再生能源,再生能源當然是我們未來的方向一個再生能源所產生的電費剛剛洪孟凱委員已經提到的我就不再贅述我只能要提醒學者來告訴我們說歐盟電力的排碳係數是0.24那台灣是人家的一倍以上連美國用電量這麼高也是0.4那我比較關切的就是我們未來歐盟的碳邊境稅的課徵CBM出國業者使用的電力排碳係數會被納入\n243090\t245892\t這是一個很嚴重的問題歐盟的定價是每噸100塊美金這影響是非常大的那你看到核三長除役之後呢這到底會不會影響我們台灣的這個進出口我必須要提出來我們目前汪格雄這個總排碳量我們高雄是佔20%\n260080\t266285\t我們是列為高碳排的企業高達90%我們的石化我們的鋼鐵然後我們台灣出口歐盟最大宗就是鋼鐵業所以鋼鐵業可以受到多好大的影響光是我們這個歐盟的要做這個CBAM的這樣子的一個策略來說你怎麼來面對這樣的問題\n277995\t286645\t我想大家對西北的部分政府以及民間單位都積極的在進行中那我們依照歐盟的部分在去年你覺得我們的產業界會因為要派出這個碳碳稅的問題的話克制的部分我們預估要多付多少錢\n292892\t310828\t⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯\n311118\t313921\t所以說你們如果用現有的這個能源的政策的話其實對產業界會造成非常多的影響所以當你們的部長還有包括我們這個國發會他們都是來自這個產業就很清楚你現有的能源的政策是沒有辦法\n326514\t342281\t能夠符合你2050年進行排談的部分嗎?我們來看一下嘛為什麼你們這麼多你賴清德總統講的是第一次能源轉型我不曉得要轉到什麼部分還想要做我們這第二次我不曉得你今天次長能源的結果是什麼第一次能源轉型這是賴總統講的\n344489\t370899\t我想我們的能源轉型持續在進行中希望我們是說要有可能更多的一個這個積極的思維來進行能源轉型沒有那你第二次能源轉型指的又是什麼這是賴總統提到的啦他的成效是什麼第二次能源轉型是什麼你會把核能當作是第二次能源轉型的一個主要的一個方向嗎我想我們提到的您剛剛提到的部分就是說總統所提到第二次能源轉型他\n371559\t399735\t有更進一步的論述是提到說要多元的綠能的一個開發另外一個部分要穩定供電這個部分是我們在進行能源轉向的過程當中是需要進行的如果說我們的能源政策的話不會新商的這些包括國發會還有包括我們的你們的部長都有特別提到你看你在2020年的時候當然他把人家講說乾淨能源後來馬上就說非核家園目標不變然後你的環境部長也馬上說啊也沒有說我就是遵守這個非核的家園但是你會看到我們\n400615\t416062\t本委員會非常多委員所提出的法案可能都會打點這個環境部裡面所提到的環境基本法那你看看這就是我們目前造成一個能源很大的一個問題更不要說我們現在AI那剛剛我剛剛聽了部長提到說AI未來可用的部分因為我們的王仁勳提到可能會在台南或高雄選擇一個地方來變成AI的科技產業它會是我們台灣第二個的護國神山非常的歡迎但是AI所用的耗電量\n429688\t434831\t高盛評估我覺得次長你有點低估可用的發電量我是根據高盛來評估啊他說AI的供應量在2023到2030年成長160%而且2030年降臨美國總體的電力是8%這是很可怕的而且美國的這個美林的調查報告也說AI的需求量到2023到2028年復合成長率是25到33今天的龍頭的ARM更警告\n458404\t460125\t謝謝委員的提醒事實上經濟部是隨時在把所需要的用電準備好我們時時在做這個工作\n487037\t514699\t我只能說啦你隨時在準備我也不知道是怎麼樣我只問一個啦美國就是因為要面臨這樣的問題說他把核電作為應對AI高核能的非常重要的一項的一個部分嘛光是過去的美國就對這個核融核的這個投資已經超過59億美金喔那我們跟他們來比起來我們說實在這一方面真的是比較是落後蠻多的啦那說到非核教育的部分有沒有相關的規劃有沒有跟其他的國家的作戰合作其實你必須要面對的問題啊\n516305\t532995\t﹗﹗\n533796\t553491\t你們跟誰合作?你們有在做這個核融合技術的研發嗎?我們目前為止我們投資多少錢在這裡?我們投資多少錢在這裡?我們投資的錢跟其他美國的這個先進科技我們還有一段,然後我們還要作為AI,我們還要做半導體,這些都是非常耗電,耗水,耗能源的這個部分,我們到底目前投資了多少錢在這個地方?\n555340\t579218\t經濟部有做這樣的一個評估嗎?我們未來還要花多少錢在這個地方?我們經濟部會隨時的關注掌握那我跟委員報告我剛剛聽那個我們核安會主委的報告裡面那有相關的技術的一個這個掌握你們隨時掌握但是我們需要清楚的數據因為你投資多少錢能夠多少的產能這才是一個數字數字才讓我們有一個評估的部分我期望經濟部下一次我們有機會在這個地方碰面的時候請你提供給我經費透過經費跟國外的\n583581\t583601\t謝謝委員\n","txt":"柯志恩 抓委 柯志恩委員質詢謝謝主席 我們請經濟部的林次長請經濟部林次長\n市長好,我們現在目前知道核一核二都已經除以喔,或是在除以當中那我們今年七月核三也會至停機那我們的興達跟我們的這個麥寮的電廠共四部機組我們也不再發電那剛好都是我們夏季的這個高峰用電料你認為我們的供電會不會有危機\n我想我們已經準備好相關的這個廚藝的機組之後新的機組上來我想這個部分我剛剛已經講過我們根據我們的用電的需求已經做好最好的準備的一個但是但是我們還是一一來檢視是不是真的做好因為你們現在新增的發電機組都是燃氣的機組嗎\n您所需要天然氣在第三接收站明年6月完工之前請問這邊要從哪裡取得?\n目前有兩座天然氣的儲存草一個是在台中另外一個是在高雄但是我知道你會這樣的回應因為你不要說因為原來的舊機組目前為止也是沒有天然氣開工發電你的問題還是一樣的存在因為我們的我們要大量使用2025年我們要大量的使用天然氣但是我們現在所能夠儲能的空間其實都已經佔滿了所以你即使使用這個舊的機組你還是沒有氣可以來做一個這樣的一個處理\n所以好,我們就來看看這是我們大家產業界所提出的一個非常大的問題那接下來就是有的非常多的,你看你們興達一號機跟大潭九號機它可以在六月準時上線嗎?還有你這個七號機有沒有辦法在八月準時上線?目前來說\n這個部分就是在積極的進行當中有沒有辦法保證我想我們會按照我們所規劃的目標來努力達成其實這個就是一個非常重要的我告訴你大家都在挫雷彈啦真的是等一下我還會在用電的這個部分跟次長請教我們先來關心今天另外一個很大的一個重點因為賴總統他在就職演說喊出的這個2050年當中他要做個淨零排碳\n那我們你看看核三廠的一號機七月已經停機二號機五年所以失去核三的無碳電力我們這個排碳可以降低570萬噸沒錯吧幾乎佔柴電的排碳的6%沒錯啊這個部分佔柴電這是好事啊但是\n市長,去年我國電力排檔的系數降到0.494但是根據我們電業法你到20250的時候我們的排檔系數應該是0.424我們還差0.07我們還差0.07我們好像看起來這個小數點很小但是0.07以我們目前的排檔來說的話需要20年時間才有辦法達到需要20年才有辦法達到所以2050的淨零排檔的政見會不會有機會實現\n市長您的評估我的評估是會實現的為什麼這樣講呢第一個部分剛剛委員問到核三廠如果停機下來的時候它的那個排蛋數減少當然我跟您報告我們的再生能源去年是花了267億度那我們今年會花到413億度左右\n你一直在強調再生能源,再生能源當然是我們未來的方向一個再生能源所產生的電費剛剛洪孟凱委員已經提到的我就不再贅述我只能要提醒學者來告訴我們說歐盟電力的排碳係數是0.24那台灣是人家的一倍以上連美國用電量這麼高也是0.4那我比較關切的就是我們未來歐盟的碳邊境稅的課徵CBM出國業者使用的電力排碳係數會被納入\n這是一個很嚴重的問題歐盟的定價是每噸100塊美金這影響是非常大的那你看到核三長除役之後呢這到底會不會影響我們台灣的這個進出口我必須要提出來我們目前汪格雄這個總排碳量我們高雄是佔20%\n我們是列為高碳排的企業高達90%我們的石化我們的鋼鐵然後我們台灣出口歐盟最大宗就是鋼鐵業所以鋼鐵業可以受到多好大的影響光是我們這個歐盟的要做這個CBAM的這樣子的一個策略來說你怎麼來面對這樣的問題\n我想大家對西北的部分政府以及民間單位都積極的在進行中那我們依照歐盟的部分在去年你覺得我們的產業界會因為要派出這個碳碳稅的問題的話克制的部分我們預估要多付多少錢\n⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯\n所以說你們如果用現有的這個能源的政策的話其實對產業界會造成非常多的影響所以當你們的部長還有包括我們這個國發會他們都是來自這個產業就很清楚你現有的能源的政策是沒有辦法\n能夠符合你2050年進行排談的部分嗎?我們來看一下嘛為什麼你們這麼多你賴清德總統講的是第一次能源轉型我不曉得要轉到什麼部分還想要做我們這第二次我不曉得你今天次長能源的結果是什麼第一次能源轉型這是賴總統講的\n我想我們的能源轉型持續在進行中希望我們是說要有可能更多的一個這個積極的思維來進行能源轉型沒有那你第二次能源轉型指的又是什麼這是賴總統提到的啦他的成效是什麼第二次能源轉型是什麼你會把核能當作是第二次能源轉型的一個主要的一個方向嗎我想我們提到的您剛剛提到的部分就是說總統所提到第二次能源轉型他\n有更進一步的論述是提到說要多元的綠能的一個開發另外一個部分要穩定供電這個部分是我們在進行能源轉向的過程當中是需要進行的如果說我們的能源政策的話不會新商的這些包括國發會還有包括我們的你們的部長都有特別提到你看你在2020年的時候當然他把人家講說乾淨能源後來馬上就說非核家園目標不變然後你的環境部長也馬上說啊也沒有說我就是遵守這個非核的家園但是你會看到我們\n本委員會非常多委員所提出的法案可能都會打點這個環境部裡面所提到的環境基本法那你看看這就是我們目前造成一個能源很大的一個問題更不要說我們現在AI那剛剛我剛剛聽了部長提到說AI未來可用的部分因為我們的王仁勳提到可能會在台南或高雄選擇一個地方來變成AI的科技產業它會是我們台灣第二個的護國神山非常的歡迎但是AI所用的耗電量\n高盛評估我覺得次長你有點低估可用的發電量我是根據高盛來評估啊他說AI的供應量在2023到2030年成長160%而且2030年降臨美國總體的電力是8%這是很可怕的而且美國的這個美林的調查報告也說AI的需求量到2023到2028年復合成長率是25到33今天的龍頭的ARM更警告\n謝謝委員的提醒事實上經濟部是隨時在把所需要的用電準備好我們時時在做這個工作\n我只能說啦你隨時在準備我也不知道是怎麼樣我只問一個啦美國就是因為要面臨這樣的問題說他把核電作為應對AI高核能的非常重要的一項的一個部分嘛光是過去的美國就對這個核融核的這個投資已經超過59億美金喔那我們跟他們來比起來我們說實在這一方面真的是比較是落後蠻多的啦那說到非核教育的部分有沒有相關的規劃有沒有跟其他的國家的作戰合作其實你必須要面對的問題啊\n﹗﹗\n你們跟誰合作?你們有在做這個核融合技術的研發嗎?我們目前為止我們投資多少錢在這裡?我們投資多少錢在這裡?我們投資的錢跟其他美國的這個先進科技我們還有一段,然後我們還要作為AI,我們還要做半導體,這些都是非常耗電,耗水,耗能源的這個部分,我們到底目前投資了多少錢在這個地方?\n經濟部有做這樣的一個評估嗎?我們未來還要花多少錢在這個地方?我們經濟部會隨時的關注掌握那我跟委員報告我剛剛聽那個我們核安會主委的報告裡面那有相關的技術的一個這個掌握你們隨時掌握但是我們需要清楚的數據因為你投資多少錢能夠多少的產能這才是一個數字數字才讓我們有一個評估的部分我期望經濟部下一次我們有機會在這個地方碰面的時候請你提供給我經費透過經費跟國外的\n謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.029 --> 00:09.021\n柯 志 恩 抓 委 柯 志 恩 委 員 質 詢 謝 謝 主 席 我 們 請 經 濟 部 的 林 次 長 請 經 濟 部 林 次 長\n\n00:14.998 --> 00:33.131\n市 長 好 , 我 們 現 在 目 前 知 道 核 一 核 二 都 已 經 除 以 喔 , 或 是 在 除 以 當 中 那 我 們 今 年 七 月 核 三 也 會 至 停 機 那 我 們 的 興 達 跟 我 們 的 這 個 麥 寮 的 電 廠 共 四 部 機 組 我 們 也 不 再 發 電 那 剛 好 都 是 我 們 夏 季 的 這 個 高 峰 用 電 料 你 認 為 我 們 的 供 電 會 不 會 有 危 機\n\n00:34.099 --> 00:52.128\n我 想 我 們 已 經 準 備 好 相 關 的 這 個 廚 藝 的 機 組 之 後 新 的 機 組 上 來 我 想 這 個 部 分 我 剛 剛 已 經 講 過 我 們 根 據 我 們 的 用 電 的 需 求 已 經 做 好 最 好 的 準 備 的 一 個 但 是 但 是 我 們 還 是 一 一 來 檢 視 是 不 是 真 的 做 好 因 為 你 們 現 在 新 增 的 發 電 機 組 都 是 燃 氣 的 機 組 嗎\n\n00:53.148 --> 00:54.909\n您 所 需 要 天 然 氣 在 第 三 接 收 站 明 年 6 月 完 工 之 前 請 問 這 邊 要 從 哪 裡 取 得 ?\n\n01:10.373 --> 01:20.482\n目 前 有 兩 座 天 然 氣 的 儲 存 草 一 個 是 在 台 中 另 外 一 個 是 在 高 雄 但 是 我 知 道 你 會 這 樣 的 回 應 因 為 你 不 要 說 因 為 原 來 的 舊 機 組 目 前 為 止 也 是 沒 有 天 然 氣 開 工 發 電 你 的 問 題 還 是 一 樣 的 存 在 因 為 我 們 的 我 們 要 大 量 使 用 2 0 2 5 年 我 們 要 大 量 的 使 用 天 然 氣 但 是 我 們 現 在 所 能 夠 儲 能 的 空 間 其 實 都 已 經 佔 滿 了 所 以 你 即 使 使 用 這 個 舊 的 機 組 你 還 是 沒 有 氣 可 以 來 做 一 個 這 樣 的 一 個 處 理\n\n01:35.575 --> 01:38.796\n所 以 好 , 我 們 就 來 看 看 這 是 我 們 大 家 產 業 界 所 提 出 的 一 個 非 常 大 的 問 題 那 接 下 來 就 是 有 的 非 常 多 的 , 你 看 你 們 興 達 一 號 機 跟 大 潭 九 號 機 它 可 以 在 六 月 準 時 上 線 嗎 ? 還 有 你 這 個 七 號 機 有 沒 有 辦 法 在 八 月 準 時 上 線 ? 目 前 來 說\n\n02:06.302 --> 02:25.314\n這 個 部 分 就 是 在 積 極 的 進 行 當 中 有 沒 有 辦 法 保 證 我 想 我 們 會 按 照 我 們 所 規 劃 的 目 標 來 努 力 達 成 其 實 這 個 就 是 一 個 非 常 重 要 的 我 告 訴 你 大 家 都 在 挫 雷 彈 啦 真 的 是 等 一 下 我 還 會 在 用 電 的 這 個 部 分 跟 次 長 請 教 我 們 先 來 關 心 今 天 另 外 一 個 很 大 的 一 個 重 點 因 為 賴 總 統 他 在 就 職 演 說 喊 出 的 這 個 2 0 5 0 年 當 中 他 要 做 個 淨 零 排 碳\n\n02:30.777 --> 02:39.464\n那 我 們 你 看 看 核 三 廠 的 一 號 機 七 月 已 經 停 機 二 號 機 五 年 所 以 失 去 核 三 的 無 碳 電 力 我 們 這 個 排 碳 可 以 降 低 5 7 0 萬 噸 沒 錯 吧 幾 乎 佔 柴 電 的 排 碳 的 6 % 沒 錯 啊 這 個 部 分 佔 柴 電 這 是 好 事 啊 但 是\n\n02:47.901 --> 02:51.082\n市 長 , 去 年 我 國 電 力 排 檔 的 系 數 降 到 0 . 4 9 4 但 是 根 據 我 們 電 業 法 你 到 2 0 2 5 0 的 時 候 我 們 的 排 檔 系 數 應 該 是 0 . 4 2 4 我 們 還 差 0 . 0 7 我 們 還 差 0 . 0 7 我 們 好 像 看 起 來 這 個 小 數 點 很 小 但 是 0 . 0 7 以 我 們 目 前 的 排 檔 來 說 的 話 需 要 2 0 年 時 間 才 有 辦 法 達 到 需 要 2 0 年 才 有 辦 法 達 到 所 以 2 0 5 0 的 淨 零 排 檔 的 政 見 會 不 會 有 機 會 實 現\n\n03:15.189 --> 03:35.294\n市 長 您 的 評 估 我 的 評 估 是 會 實 現 的 為 什 麼 這 樣 講 呢 第 一 個 部 分 剛 剛 委 員 問 到 核 三 廠 如 果 停 機 下 來 的 時 候 它 的 那 個 排 蛋 數 減 少 當 然 我 跟 您 報 告 我 們 的 再 生 能 源 去 年 是 花 了 2 6 7 億 度 那 我 們 今 年 會 花 到 4 1 3 億 度 左 右\n\n03:37.055 --> 03:47.641\n你 一 直 在 強 調 再 生 能 源 , 再 生 能 源 當 然 是 我 們 未 來 的 方 向 一 個 再 生 能 源 所 產 生 的 電 費 剛 剛 洪 孟 凱 委 員 已 經 提 到 的 我 就 不 再 贅 述 我 只 能 要 提 醒 學 者 來 告 訴 我 們 說 歐 盟 電 力 的 排 碳 係 數 是 0 . 2 4 那 台 灣 是 人 家 的 一 倍 以 上 連 美 國 用 電 量 這 麼 高 也 是 0 . 4 那 我 比 較 關 切 的 就 是 我 們 未 來 歐 盟 的 碳 邊 境 稅 的 課 徵 C B M 出 國 業 者 使 用 的 電 力 排 碳 係 數 會 被 納 入\n\n04:03.090 --> 04:05.892\n這 是 一 個 很 嚴 重 的 問 題 歐 盟 的 定 價 是 每 噸 1 0 0 塊 美 金 這 影 響 是 非 常 大 的 那 你 看 到 核 三 長 除 役 之 後 呢 這 到 底 會 不 會 影 響 我 們 台 灣 的 這 個 進 出 口 我 必 須 要 提 出 來 我 們 目 前 汪 格 雄 這 個 總 排 碳 量 我 們 高 雄 是 佔 2 0 %\n\n04:20.080 --> 04:26.285\n我 們 是 列 為 高 碳 排 的 企 業 高 達 9 0 % 我 們 的 石 化 我 們 的 鋼 鐵 然 後 我 們 台 灣 出 口 歐 盟 最 大 宗 就 是 鋼 鐵 業 所 以 鋼 鐵 業 可 以 受 到 多 好 大 的 影 響 光 是 我 們 這 個 歐 盟 的 要 做 這 個 C B A M 的 這 樣 子 的 一 個 策 略 來 說 你 怎 麼 來 面 對 這 樣 的 問 題\n\n04:37.995 --> 04:46.645\n我 想 大 家 對 西 北 的 部 分 政 府 以 及 民 間 單 位 都 積 極 的 在 進 行 中 那 我 們 依 照 歐 盟 的 部 分 在 去 年 你 覺 得 我 們 的 產 業 界 會 因 為 要 派 出 這 個 碳 碳 稅 的 問 題 的 話 克 制 的 部 分 我 們 預 估 要 多 付 多 少 錢\n\n05:11.118 --> 05:13.921\n所 以 說 你 們 如 果 用 現 有 的 這 個 能 源 的 政 策 的 話 其 實 對 產 業 界 會 造 成 非 常 多 的 影 響 所 以 當 你 們 的 部 長 還 有 包 括 我 們 這 個 國 發 會 他 們 都 是 來 自 這 個 產 業 就 很 清 楚 你 現 有 的 能 源 的 政 策 是 沒 有 辦 法\n\n05:26.514 --> 05:42.281\n能 夠 符 合 你 2 0 5 0 年 進 行 排 談 的 部 分 嗎 ? 我 們 來 看 一 下 嘛 為 什 麼 你 們 這 麼 多 你 賴 清 德 總 統 講 的 是 第 一 次 能 源 轉 型 我 不 曉 得 要 轉 到 什 麼 部 分 還 想 要 做 我 們 這 第 二 次 我 不 曉 得 你 今 天 次 長 能 源 的 結 果 是 什 麼 第 一 次 能 源 轉 型 這 是 賴 總 統 講 的\n\n05:44.489 --> 06:10.899\n我 想 我 們 的 能 源 轉 型 持 續 在 進 行 中 希 望 我 們 是 說 要 有 可 能 更 多 的 一 個 這 個 積 極 的 思 維 來 進 行 能 源 轉 型 沒 有 那 你 第 二 次 能 源 轉 型 指 的 又 是 什 麼 這 是 賴 總 統 提 到 的 啦 他 的 成 效 是 什 麼 第 二 次 能 源 轉 型 是 什 麼 你 會 把 核 能 當 作 是 第 二 次 能 源 轉 型 的 一 個 主 要 的 一 個 方 向 嗎 我 想 我 們 提 到 的 您 剛 剛 提 到 的 部 分 就 是 說 總 統 所 提 到 第 二 次 能 源 轉 型 他\n\n06:11.559 --> 06:39.735\n有 更 進 一 步 的 論 述 是 提 到 說 要 多 元 的 綠 能 的 一 個 開 發 另 外 一 個 部 分 要 穩 定 供 電 這 個 部 分 是 我 們 在 進 行 能 源 轉 向 的 過 程 當 中 是 需 要 進 行 的 如 果 說 我 們 的 能 源 政 策 的 話 不 會 新 商 的 這 些 包 括 國 發 會 還 有 包 括 我 們 的 你 們 的 部 長 都 有 特 別 提 到 你 看 你 在 2 0 2 0 年 的 時 候 當 然 他 把 人 家 講 說 乾 淨 能 源 後 來 馬 上 就 說 非 核 家 園 目 標 不 變 然 後 你 的 環 境 部 長 也 馬 上 說 啊 也 沒 有 說 我 就 是 遵 守 這 個 非 核 的 家 園 但 是 你 會 看 到 我 們\n\n06:40.615 --> 06:56.062\n本 委 員 會 非 常 多 委 員 所 提 出 的 法 案 可 能 都 會 打 點 這 個 環 境 部 裡 面 所 提 到 的 環 境 基 本 法 那 你 看 看 這 就 是 我 們 目 前 造 成 一 個 能 源 很 大 的 一 個 問 題 更 不 要 說 我 們 現 在 A I 那 剛 剛 我 剛 剛 聽 了 部 長 提 到 說 A I 未 來 可 用 的 部 分 因 為 我 們 的 王 仁 勳 提 到 可 能 會 在 台 南 或 高 雄 選 擇 一 個 地 方 來 變 成 A I 的 科 技 產 業 它 會 是 我 們 台 灣 第 二 個 的 護 國 神 山 非 常 的 歡 迎 但 是 A I 所 用 的 耗 電 量\n\n07:09.688 --> 07:14.831\n高 盛 評 估 我 覺 得 次 長 你 有 點 低 估 可 用 的 發 電 量 我 是 根 據 高 盛 來 評 估 啊 他 說 A I 的 供 應 量 在 2 0 2 3 到 2 0 3 0 年 成 長 1 6 0 % 而 且 2 0 3 0 年 降 臨 美 國 總 體 的 電 力 是 8 % 這 是 很 可 怕 的 而 且 美 國 的 這 個 美 林 的 調 查 報 告 也 說 A I 的 需 求 量 到 2 0 2 3 到 2 0 2 8 年 復 合 成 長 率 是 2 5 到 3 3 今 天 的 龍 頭 的 A R M 更 警 告\n\n07:38.404 --> 07:40.125\n謝 謝 委 員 的 提 醒 事 實 上 經 濟 部 是 隨 時 在 把 所 需 要 的 用 電 準 備 好 我 們 時 時 在 做 這 個 工 作\n\n08:07.037 --> 08:34.699\n我 只 能 說 啦 你 隨 時 在 準 備 我 也 不 知 道 是 怎 麼 樣 我 只 問 一 個 啦 美 國 就 是 因 為 要 面 臨 這 樣 的 問 題 說 他 把 核 電 作 為 應 對 A I 高 核 能 的 非 常 重 要 的 一 項 的 一 個 部 分 嘛 光 是 過 去 的 美 國 就 對 這 個 核 融 核 的 這 個 投 資 已 經 超 過 5 9 億 美 金 喔 那 我 們 跟 他 們 來 比 起 來 我 們 說 實 在 這 一 方 面 真 的 是 比 較 是 落 後 蠻 多 的 啦 那 說 到 非 核 教 育 的 部 分 有 沒 有 相 關 的 規 劃 有 沒 有 跟 其 他 的 國 家 的 作 戰 合 作 其 實 你 必 須 要 面 對 的 問 題 啊\n\n08:53.796 --> 09:13.491\n你 們 跟 誰 合 作 ? 你 們 有 在 做 這 個 核 融 合 技 術 的 研 發 嗎 ? 我 們 目 前 為 止 我 們 投 資 多 少 錢 在 這 裡 ? 我 們 投 資 多 少 錢 在 這 裡 ? 我 們 投 資 的 錢 跟 其 他 美 國 的 這 個 先 進 科 技 我 們 還 有 一 段 , 然 後 我 們 還 要 作 為 A I , 我 們 還 要 做 半 導 體 , 這 些 都 是 非 常 耗 電 , 耗 水 , 耗 能 源 的 這 個 部 分 , 我 們 到 底 目 前 投 資 了 多 少 錢 在 這 個 地 方 ?\n\n09:15.340 --> 09:39.218\n經 濟 部 有 做 這 樣 的 一 個 評 估 嗎 ? 我 們 未 來 還 要 花 多 少 錢 在 這 個 地 方 ? 我 們 經 濟 部 會 隨 時 的 關 注 掌 握 那 我 跟 委 員 報 告 我 剛 剛 聽 那 個 我 們 核 安 會 主 委 的 報 告 裡 面 那 有 相 關 的 技 術 的 一 個 這 個 掌 握 你 們 隨 時 掌 握 但 是 我 們 需 要 清 楚 的 數 據 因 為 你 投 資 多 少 錢 能 夠 多 少 的 產 能 這 才 是 一 個 數 字 數 字 才 讓 我 們 有 一 個 評 估 的 部 分 我 期 望 經 濟 部 下 一 次 我 們 有 機 會 在 這 個 地 方 碰 面 的 時 候 請 你 提 供 給 我 經 費 透 過 經 費 跟 國 外 的\n\n09:43.581 --> 09:43.601\n謝 謝 委 員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.029,"end":9.021,"text":"柯志恩 抓委 柯志恩委員質詢謝謝主席 我們請經濟部的林次長請經濟部林次長"},{"start":14.998,"end":33.131,"text":"市長好,我們現在目前知道核一核二都已經除以喔,或是在除以當中那我們今年七月核三也會至停機那我們的興達跟我們的這個麥寮的電廠共四部機組我們也不再發電那剛好都是我們夏季的這個高峰用電料你認為我們的供電會不會有危機"},{"start":34.099,"end":52.128,"text":"我想我們已經準備好相關的這個廚藝的機組之後新的機組上來我想這個部分我剛剛已經講過我們根據我們的用電的需求已經做好最好的準備的一個但是但是我們還是一一來檢視是不是真的做好因為你們現在新增的發電機組都是燃氣的機組嗎"},{"start":53.148,"end":54.909,"text":"您所需要天然氣在第三接收站明年6月完工之前請問這邊要從哪裡取得?"},{"start":70.373,"end":80.482,"text":"目前有兩座天然氣的儲存草一個是在台中另外一個是在高雄但是我知道你會這樣的回應因為你不要說因為原來的舊機組目前為止也是沒有天然氣開工發電你的問題還是一樣的存在因為我們的我們要大量使用2025年我們要大量的使用天然氣但是我們現在所能夠儲能的空間其實都已經佔滿了所以你即使使用這個舊的機組你還是沒有氣可以來做一個這樣的一個處理"},{"start":95.575,"end":98.796,"text":"所以好,我們就來看看這是我們大家產業界所提出的一個非常大的問題那接下來就是有的非常多的,你看你們興達一號機跟大潭九號機它可以在六月準時上線嗎?還有你這個七號機有沒有辦法在八月準時上線?目前來說"},{"start":126.302,"end":145.314,"text":"這個部分就是在積極的進行當中有沒有辦法保證我想我們會按照我們所規劃的目標來努力達成其實這個就是一個非常重要的我告訴你大家都在挫雷彈啦真的是等一下我還會在用電的這個部分跟次長請教我們先來關心今天另外一個很大的一個重點因為賴總統他在就職演說喊出的這個2050年當中他要做個淨零排碳"},{"start":150.777,"end":159.464,"text":"那我們你看看核三廠的一號機七月已經停機二號機五年所以失去核三的無碳電力我們這個排碳可以降低570萬噸沒錯吧幾乎佔柴電的排碳的6%沒錯啊這個部分佔柴電這是好事啊但是"},{"start":167.901,"end":171.082,"text":"市長,去年我國電力排檔的系數降到0.494但是根據我們電業法你到20250的時候我們的排檔系數應該是0.424我們還差0.07我們還差0.07我們好像看起來這個小數點很小但是0.07以我們目前的排檔來說的話需要20年時間才有辦法達到需要20年才有辦法達到所以2050的淨零排檔的政見會不會有機會實現"},{"start":195.189,"end":215.294,"text":"市長您的評估我的評估是會實現的為什麼這樣講呢第一個部分剛剛委員問到核三廠如果停機下來的時候它的那個排蛋數減少當然我跟您報告我們的再生能源去年是花了267億度那我們今年會花到413億度左右"},{"start":217.055,"end":227.641,"text":"你一直在強調再生能源,再生能源當然是我們未來的方向一個再生能源所產生的電費剛剛洪孟凱委員已經提到的我就不再贅述我只能要提醒學者來告訴我們說歐盟電力的排碳係數是0.24那台灣是人家的一倍以上連美國用電量這麼高也是0.4那我比較關切的就是我們未來歐盟的碳邊境稅的課徵CBM出國業者使用的電力排碳係數會被納入"},{"start":243.09,"end":245.892,"text":"這是一個很嚴重的問題歐盟的定價是每噸100塊美金這影響是非常大的那你看到核三長除役之後呢這到底會不會影響我們台灣的這個進出口我必須要提出來我們目前汪格雄這個總排碳量我們高雄是佔20%"},{"start":260.08,"end":266.285,"text":"我們是列為高碳排的企業高達90%我們的石化我們的鋼鐵然後我們台灣出口歐盟最大宗就是鋼鐵業所以鋼鐵業可以受到多好大的影響光是我們這個歐盟的要做這個CBAM的這樣子的一個策略來說你怎麼來面對這樣的問題"},{"start":277.995,"end":286.645,"text":"我想大家對西北的部分政府以及民間單位都積極的在進行中那我們依照歐盟的部分在去年你覺得我們的產業界會因為要派出這個碳碳稅的問題的話克制的部分我們預估要多付多少錢"},{"start":292.892,"end":310.828,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":311.118,"end":313.921,"text":"所以說你們如果用現有的這個能源的政策的話其實對產業界會造成非常多的影響所以當你們的部長還有包括我們這個國發會他們都是來自這個產業就很清楚你現有的能源的政策是沒有辦法"},{"start":326.514,"end":342.281,"text":"能夠符合你2050年進行排談的部分嗎?我們來看一下嘛為什麼你們這麼多你賴清德總統講的是第一次能源轉型我不曉得要轉到什麼部分還想要做我們這第二次我不曉得你今天次長能源的結果是什麼第一次能源轉型這是賴總統講的"},{"start":344.489,"end":370.899,"text":"我想我們的能源轉型持續在進行中希望我們是說要有可能更多的一個這個積極的思維來進行能源轉型沒有那你第二次能源轉型指的又是什麼這是賴總統提到的啦他的成效是什麼第二次能源轉型是什麼你會把核能當作是第二次能源轉型的一個主要的一個方向嗎我想我們提到的您剛剛提到的部分就是說總統所提到第二次能源轉型他"},{"start":371.559,"end":399.735,"text":"有更進一步的論述是提到說要多元的綠能的一個開發另外一個部分要穩定供電這個部分是我們在進行能源轉向的過程當中是需要進行的如果說我們的能源政策的話不會新商的這些包括國發會還有包括我們的你們的部長都有特別提到你看你在2020年的時候當然他把人家講說乾淨能源後來馬上就說非核家園目標不變然後你的環境部長也馬上說啊也沒有說我就是遵守這個非核的家園但是你會看到我們"},{"start":400.615,"end":416.062,"text":"本委員會非常多委員所提出的法案可能都會打點這個環境部裡面所提到的環境基本法那你看看這就是我們目前造成一個能源很大的一個問題更不要說我們現在AI那剛剛我剛剛聽了部長提到說AI未來可用的部分因為我們的王仁勳提到可能會在台南或高雄選擇一個地方來變成AI的科技產業它會是我們台灣第二個的護國神山非常的歡迎但是AI所用的耗電量"},{"start":429.688,"end":434.831,"text":"高盛評估我覺得次長你有點低估可用的發電量我是根據高盛來評估啊他說AI的供應量在2023到2030年成長160%而且2030年降臨美國總體的電力是8%這是很可怕的而且美國的這個美林的調查報告也說AI的需求量到2023到2028年復合成長率是25到33今天的龍頭的ARM更警告"},{"start":458.404,"end":460.125,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒事實上經濟部是隨時在把所需要的用電準備好我們時時在做這個工作"},{"start":487.037,"end":514.699,"text":"我只能說啦你隨時在準備我也不知道是怎麼樣我只問一個啦美國就是因為要面臨這樣的問題說他把核電作為應對AI高核能的非常重要的一項的一個部分嘛光是過去的美國就對這個核融核的這個投資已經超過59億美金喔那我們跟他們來比起來我們說實在這一方面真的是比較是落後蠻多的啦那說到非核教育的部分有沒有相關的規劃有沒有跟其他的國家的作戰合作其實你必須要面對的問題啊"},{"start":516.305,"end":532.995,"text":"﹗﹗"},{"start":533.796,"end":553.491,"text":"你們跟誰合作?你們有在做這個核融合技術的研發嗎?我們目前為止我們投資多少錢在這裡?我們投資多少錢在這裡?我們投資的錢跟其他美國的這個先進科技我們還有一段,然後我們還要作為AI,我們還要做半導體,這些都是非常耗電,耗水,耗能源的這個部分,我們到底目前投資了多少錢在這個地方?"},{"start":555.34,"end":579.218,"text":"經濟部有做這樣的一個評估嗎?我們未來還要花多少錢在這個地方?我們經濟部會隨時的關注掌握那我跟委員報告我剛剛聽那個我們核安會主委的報告裡面那有相關的技術的一個這個掌握你們隨時掌握但是我們需要清楚的數據因為你投資多少錢能夠多少的產能這才是一個數字數字才讓我們有一個評估的部分我期望經濟部下一次我們有機會在這個地方碰面的時候請你提供給我經費透過經費跟國外的"},{"start":583.581,"end":583.601,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}}}}