{"id":153182,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153182","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e133146ae50626cc43dc7db3ca66b34e87331333bc5d453e1b19574d47481ca160e5e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"09:36:06 - 09:45:08","影片長度":"00:09:02","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「強化社會安全網─暫行安置與監護處分制度及執行機構場域安全之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":542,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":27,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-27"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T09:45:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T09:36:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":213,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（9時36分）謝謝主席的包容，就像您上次包容我因為簡報的誤差，給我比較多寬限的時間，您也包容本會委員發言的時間。","主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員、會場工作夥伴。有請我們法務部鄭部長和衛福部的代表李簡任技正。"],["主席：請部長、衛福部代表。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好、李技正好。部長，其實今天我們要談的是關於司法精神病院跟第一線醫護的安全，剛剛您在回答前面委員的問題，我想請教一下，對於手機、通訊業者、基地臺這些大數據的管理，你有深入的瞭解嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有基本的瞭解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有基本的瞭解，但是我建議你要深入瞭解。其實自從劍橋事件之後，全世界這幾年來對於我們掌握的這些通訊資料進入到業者的大數據有沒有隱私上的維護問題，這是一個很深入的問題。剛剛關心到的那些事件，未來的科偵法、通保法，本委員會都會排審，希望你要指定專人好好的去研究。雖然你們在司法方面非常專業，但是相關的電信跟數據的運用，你們要有專人來瞭解，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：可以，謝謝委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：瞭解之後才能夠做正確的一個回應。","接下來我們來看一下，上次我就已經跟你請教過了，我們從基隆監護的逃犯來看，那個地方是一般的精神醫療機構，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：根據我們的保安處分執行法當中，其實這些處所的戒護人員有沒有採取必要的措施，這是由法務部來定，沒有錯嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來往下看，暫行安置與監護處分的執行機構，上次也跟你請教過，目前我們有在規劃中的司法精神病院跟司法精神病房，我去查過你們的資料，你們有用AI科技設備來做一些安全上的管理，譬如說，我們看到報導，高雄凱旋醫院的周院長透過創新科技（iSAFE）來建置我們的首間司法精神病房，是不是這樣子？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這裡面包括可以探測生理訊息、偵測去識別化影像、在公共場所進行人臉辨識，你瞭解這些部分嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：知道。請問除了這些司法精神專用的病院跟病房，前述那個基隆的精神醫療機構有沒有類似的具體安全維護措施？"],["鄭部長銘謙：最主要因為我們司法精神病院是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：高規格的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：高規格的，目前它就是以收治……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我瞭解。至於其他一般的收治機構，就是精神醫療機構，他們有沒有具有這樣的能力？"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前是還沒有要求……"],["鍾委員佳濱：還沒到達？"],["鄭部長銘謙：還沒有到達。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以法務部的工作很重要。我們來往下看，根據你們今天的報告，你們打算114年要完成，115年要收治，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是司法精神病院的部分？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，司法精神病房醫院這部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：醫院的部分？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那病房的部分呢？是不是你們……"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前在南部的司法精神病院已經……"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是看起來進度是落後的哦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是預計在今年，北部跟東部預計在下半年就可以完成收治，另外比較慢的是中部的部分，明年會……"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前總共55床，但是司法精神病院會有鄰避效果，目前我所知道，在土地的建照的取得上受到阻礙，另外，熟悉精神醫療的醫護人員他們也反彈，因為關係到他們自己醫護人員的人身安全跟配套。請問一下衛福部的代表，你們是不是有類似這樣的反映？"],["李簡任技正炳樟：跟委員報告，確實我們當初在招募人員的時候有考量這類醫護人員的安全。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，部長，你們不只在興建專門的司法精神病院有鄰避設施，要跟社區溝通，是不是包括鄰避設施之外，你們在籌建醫院的時候還有醫療人員招募上的困難，你瞭解嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：醫療人員這部分，這個是醫療資源部分，這是由衛福部主政。"],["鍾委員佳濱：衛福部主管，所以你們負責蓋，它負責經營跟管理？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是負責安全、保全這部分、安全維護這部分設施跟培訓。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們來看一下，之前也跟您請教過中捷那個案子。那個案子他是列管個案後送醫，他是在高雄那邊有列管的，他本身有其他的外傷。我們往下看，但是就他的精神狀況來講，舉例來講，請教一下衛福部代表，目前急性精神疾病患者有沒有風險分級？"],["李簡任技正炳樟：跟委員報告，目前我們在社區訪視的個案是有一到五級的分級。"],["鍾委員佳濱：一到五級，那如果是急性的？他送到醫院的急診處。"],["李簡任技正炳樟：一般出院的個案，我們都是把它歸類為一級。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都歸類為一級，有分科，但是目前我們知道，你分了一級是沒有另外、額外的風險分級，是不是這樣？"],["李簡任技正炳樟：對，我們是基於照護的需要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是基於照護的需要，但是有沒有思考到他可能會對醫護人員產生攻擊或其他人產生威脅的情況？有沒有考慮到這一點？"],["李簡任技正炳樟：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有，但是目前沒有辦法做分級？"],["李簡任技正炳樟：目前我們是有委託草寮……因為我們有一個Call Center，所以它有一個暴力風險的評估量表。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以目前對於急性精神疾病患者，你們有委託在做他的暴力風險評估了，部長，這就是一個重點。我們來看一下，就你所知，我們的警消人員，法律上是不是有賦予他們一個禁止或處分的權力？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他們也有危險職務加給，那你知道未來的司法精神病院對於急性精神疾病患者有沒有加給、有沒有緊急處分的權力，有沒有？"],["李簡任技正炳樟：跟委員報告，目前在司法精神病房跟醫院，我們都有給醫事人員危險加給。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有危險加給？"],["李簡任技正炳樟：一個月6,000元。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那他們有沒有其他的對他做拘束的一些權力？有法律上的授權？"],["李簡任技正炳樟：那就回歸到我們的精神衛生法，可能會送到保護室，要做一些約束、隔離。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是精神衛生法的問題。部長，我跟你說，其實是這樣子，這個我需要法務部來幫忙，剛剛他們是純粹就治療的部分，會把他送到一個保護室去做拘束，但是今天我們看到的是，當他送到急診的時候，以剛剛那個案例來看，很有可能是這樣的情況，他可能具有攻擊性，他可能對他人甚至醫護人員造成一個暴力上攻擊的風險，根據警察職權行使法，警察有強制力，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：在第二十八條的部分，而消防法第二十條之一，他有退避權，必要的時候，消防人員可以離開危險的現場。你認為未來在司法精神病院當中，我們是不是要同時賦予這些醫護人員除了專業的危險加給之外，應該給他適當的法律上的保障？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分醫療的法規應該有相關的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：具備了嗎？足夠了嗎？"],["李簡任技正炳樟：跟委員報告，目前我的印象中是在保執法的部分，法務部有考量這個因素，把它納進來。"],["鍾委員佳濱：法務部有考量這個因素，是哪一個法律？請告訴我們部長。"],["李簡任技正炳樟：保安處分執行法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：保安處分執行法有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分目前是草案。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前是草案。今天我們談這個議題，很謝謝召委排這個議題，因為這個議題過去我在衛環也關心過，在這裡也關心過，所以我們希望你們能考慮如何完善面對這些急性精神疾病患者的醫護人員的安全跟待遇，未來你們的司法精神病院，這些人天天暴露在第一級的可能風險當中，你認為呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：的確是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我是不是可以請……剛剛衛福部說他們有一個暴力風險的評估正在研擬當中，你們目前的法案也在整修當中，什麼時候可以給一個完整的報告，讓我們委員會來幫我們未來的司法精神病醫院當中的醫護人員，給他們一些保障？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們來儘速推動。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，一個月內提出一個書面報告，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：裡面要包含衛福部剛剛說的，對於急性精神疾病患者的暴力風險評估，以及在緊急處分的時候，在法令上給予第一線人員一些授權可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員。我們現在先休息3分鐘，謝謝各位。","休息（9時45分）","繼續開會（9時49分）"],["主席：謝謝各位。我們現在先作宣告：今天有委員提出臨時提案，依照本會的往例，預計於上午11點處理，如果屆時委員正在詢答，於該位委員詢答完畢之後即進行處理臨時提案。","接下來我們請莊瑞雄委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-27","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","羅智強","謝龍介","陳俊宇","林思銘","吳思瑤","翁曉玲"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「強化社會安全網─ 暫行安\n置與監護處分制度及執行機構場域安全之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135301_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"153182","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153182","tool":"pyannote","id":"153182-pyannote"},"job_id":"u0045YIsu56yXsQo","queued_at":"2024-05-30 14:01:20","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-05-30 14:02:59","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153182"},{"time":"2024-05-30 14:02:59","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e133146ae50626cc43dc7db3ca66b34e8733113741e85769bdcce4b158949e48b50da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-05-30 14:03:14","msg":"converting mp4 to wav"},{"time":"2024-05-30 14:03:16","msg":"running pyannote"},{"time":"2024-05-30 14:03:26","msg":"status: 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表 李 簡 正 衛 福 部 代 表\n\n2\n00:00:47,020 --> 00:01:00,700\n委 員 長 部 長 好 我 們 李 義 正 好 部 長 其 實 今 天 我 們 要 談 的 是 關 於 司 法 精 神 病 院 跟 第 一 線 醫 護 的 安 全 那 剛 剛 您 在 回 答 前 面 委 員 的 問 題 我 想 請 教 一 下 這 個 您 對 於\n\n3\n00:01:02,643 --> 00:01:31,016\n手 機 、 通 訊 業 者 、 基 地 台 這 些 大 數 據 的 管 理 你 有 深 入 的 了 解 嗎 ? 我 只 有 基 本 的 了 解 基 本 了 解 但 是 我 建 議 你 要 深 入 了 解 其 實 呢 自 從 建 橋 事 件 之 後 全 世 界 這 幾 年 來 啊 對 於 我 們 掌 握 的 這 些 通 訊 資 料 進 入 到 業 者 的 大 數 據 那 麼 有 沒 有 隱 私 上 的 維 護 問 題 這 是 一 個 很 深 入 的 問 題 那 剛 剛 呢 關 心 到 的 那 些 事 件 我 建 議 呢 未 來 的 科 證 法\n\n4\n00:01:31,656 --> 00:01:55,399\n通 保 法 我 們 本 委 員 會 都 會 排 審 那 希 望 你 要 指 定 專 人 好 好 的 去 研 究 雖 然 你 們 在 司 法 的 方 面 非 常 專 業 但 是 相 關 的 電 信 跟 數 據 的 運 用 你 們 要 專 人 來 瞭 解 可 以 嗎 瞭 解 之 後 才 能 夠 做 正 確 的 一 個 回 應 好 那 接 下 來 我 們 來 看 一 下 上 次 我 就 跟 你 請 教 過 了 那 麼 我 們 從 基 隆 監 護 的 逃 犯 那 個 地 方\n\n5\n00:01:55,839 --> 00:02:23,402\n那 個 是 一 般 的 精 神 醫 療 機 構 對 不 對 是 那 麼 根 據 我 們 的 保 安 處 分 執 行 法 當 中 其 實 這 些 處 所 呢 它 的 介 護 人 員 有 沒 有 採 取 必 要 的 措 施 這 是 由 法 務 部 來 定 沒 有 錯 吧 好 那 我 們 往 下 看 那 其 實 呢 暫 行 安 置 與 監 護 處 分 它 的 執 行 機 構 目 前 上 次 也 跟 你 請 教 過 目 前 我 們 有 在 規 劃 中 的 司 法 精 神 病 院 跟 司 法 精 神 病 房 那 麼 我 去 查 過 你 們 的 資 料 那 你 們 有\n\n6\n00:02:24,022 --> 00:02:41,211\n用 A I 科 技 設 備 來 做 一 些 安 全 上 的 管 理 比 如 說 我 們 看 到 報 導 高 雄 的 凱 旋 醫 院 的 周 院 長 呢 透 過 創 新 科 技 就 是 I S A F 來 建 置 在 我 們 的 手 間 的 司 法 精 神 病 房 是 不 是 這 樣 子 是 的\n\n7\n00:02:41,451 --> 00:02:44,033\n請 問 除 了 這 些 司 法 精 神 專 用 的 病 院 跟 病 房 那 在 剛 剛 前 述 那 個 基 隆 的 精 神 醫 療 機 構 他 有 沒 有 類 似 的 具 體 安 全 維 護 措 施 ?\n\n8\n00:03:03,289 --> 00:03:19,673\n他 最 主 要 是 因 為 我 們 司 法 精 神 病 院 他 這 個 是 高 規 格 的 他 目 前 的 就 是 以 收 治 我 了 解 那 至 於 其 他 的 一 般 的 收 治 機 構 就 是 精 神 醫 療 機 構 你 們 對 於 當 他 們\n\n9\n00:03:22,250 --> 00:03:48,612\n有 沒 有 具 有 這 樣 的 能 力 目 前 是 還 沒 有 到 達 還 沒 有 到 達 那 所 以 法 務 部 的 工 作 很 重 要 我 們 往 下 看 根 據 你 們 的 報 告 你 們 打 算 在 1 1 3 年 今 天 的 報 告 當 中 1 1 4 年 要 完 成 1 1 0 年 要 收 治 對 不 對 這 是 司 法 精 神 病 院 的 部 份 司 法 精 神 病 房 醫 院 這 部 份 醫 院 的 部 份 那 病 房 的 部 份 呢 目 前 在 南 部 的 已 經 司 法 精 神 病 院 已 經 但 是 看 起 來 進 度 是 落 後 的\n\n10\n00:03:49,618 --> 00:04:05,863\n那 個 我 們 是 希 望 預 計 在 今 年 那 個 北 部 跟 東 部 預 計 在 下 半 年 就 可 以 完 成 收 治 另 外 比 較 慢 的 是 中 部 的 明 年 會 目 前 總 共 就 5 5 床 對 不 對 但 是 呢 司 法 精 神 病 院 他 會 有 0 b 效 果\n\n11\n00:04:06,323 --> 00:04:20,059\n那 目 前 我 所 知 道 在 土 地 的 建 造 的 取 得 上 受 到 阻 礙 那 另 外 呢 我 們 熟 悉 精 神 醫 療 的 醫 護 人 員 他 們 也 反 彈 關 於 他 們 自 己 醫 護 人 員 的 人 身 安 全 跟 配 套 請 問 一 下 我 們 衛 福 在 代 表 你 們 是 不 是 有 類 似 這 樣 的 反 應\n\n12\n00:04:21,428 --> 00:04:40,659\n各 位 委 員 報 告 確 實 我 們 當 初 在 招 募 人 員 的 時 候 我 們 有 考 量 這 類 醫 護 人 員 的 安 全 的 考 量 所 以 來 部 長 你 們 不 只 在 興 建 專 門 的 司 法 精 神 病 院 有 鄰 居 設 施 要 跟 社 區 溝 通 是 不 是 包 括 鄰 居 設 施 之 外 你 們 在 籌 建 這 個 醫 院 的 時 候 還 有 醫 療 人 員 招 募 上 的 困 難 你 了 解 嗎\n\n13\n00:04:41,967 --> 00:05:03,837\n醫 療 人 員 這 部 分 這 個 是 醫 療 資 源 部 分 這 是 由 衛 福 部 來 主 管 所 以 你 們 負 責 蓋 他 負 責 來 經 營 跟 管 理 我 們 是 負 責 在 安 全 保 全 的 這 部 分 安 全 維 護 這 部 分 設 施 跟 培 訓 好 那 我 們 來 看 一 下 就 是 之 前 也 跟 您 請 教 過 在 中 間 的 那 個 案 子 那 個 案 子 呢 他 是 列 管 後 個 案 就 送 醫 他 是 從 高 雄 那 邊 有 列 管 的 好\n\n14\n00:05:04,697 --> 00:05:14,923\n他 本 身 有 其 他 的 外 傷 我 們 往 下 看 但 是 呢 就 他 的 一 個 精 神 的 狀 況 來 講 我 們 舉 例 來 講 請 教 一 下 衛 福 代 表 急 性 精 神 疾 患 者 他 目 前 有 沒 有 風 險 的 分 級\n\n15\n00:05:17,406 --> 00:05:42,522\n跟 委 員 報 告 目 前 我 們 在 社 區 訪 視 的 個 案 他 是 有 1 到 5 級 的 分 級 1 到 5 級 那 如 果 是 急 性 的 呢 他 要 送 醫 院 來 急 診 處 一 般 出 院 的 個 案 我 們 都 是 把 它 歸 類 為 一 級 都 歸 類 為 一 級 有 分 科 但 是 目 前 呢 我 們 知 道 你 分 了 一 級 是 沒 有 另 外 的 額 外 的 風 險 分 級 是 不 是 這 樣 對 對 我 們 是 基 於 照 護 的 需 要 是 基 於 照 護 的 需 要 但 是 有 沒 有 思 考 到 他 可 能 會 對 醫 護 人 員 產 生 攻 擊 或 其 他 人 找 生 威 脅 的 情 況 有 沒 有 考 慮 到 這 一 點 有\n\n16\n00:05:43,945 --> 00:06:11,971\n有 但 是 目 前 沒 有 辦 法 做 分 級 目 前 我 們 是 有 委 託 這 個 草 寮 有 一 個 因 為 我 們 有 一 個 c a l l c e n t e r 所 以 他 有 個 暴 力 風 險 那 個 評 估 料 是 的 所 以 你 們 目 前 對 於 急 性 的 精 神 病 患 疾 患 者 你 們 有 委 託 在 做 他 的 暴 力 風 險 的 評 估 了 好 部 長 這 個 就 一 個 重 點 了 我 們 來 看 一 下 就 你 所 知 啊 我 們 的 警 消 人 員 他 們 是 不 是 在 法 律 上 賦 有 他 們 一 個 禁 止 或 處 分 的 一 個 權 利 是 的 那 他 們 也 有 危 險 的 職 務 加 急\n\n17\n00:06:13,351 --> 00:06:21,025\n那 你 知 道 未 來 的 司 法 精 神 病 院 對 於 急 性 的 精 神 病 急 患 者 有 沒 有 加 擠 有 沒 有 緊 急 處 分 的 權 利 有 沒 有\n\n18\n00:06:23,415 --> 00:06:48,401\n目 前 我 們 在 司 法 、 精 神 病 房 跟 醫 院 我 們 都 有 給 醫 事 人 員 危 險 加 給 有 危 險 加 給 那 他 們 有 沒 有 其 他 的 對 他 做 拘 束 的 一 些 權 利 法 律 上 的 授 權 那 就 回 歸 到 我 們 精 神 衛 生 法 可 能 會 送 到 保 護 室 那 又 會 做 一 些 約 束 隔 離 就 是 精 神 衛 生 法 的 問 題 部 長 我 跟 你 說 其 實 是 這 樣 子 這 個 我 需 要 法 務 部 來 幫 忙 剛 剛 他 們 是 純 粹 說 就 治 療 的 部 分\n\n19\n00:06:49,401 --> 00:07:12,909\n會 送 到 一 個 保 護 室 去 做 拘 束 但 是 今 天 呢 我 們 看 到 是 當 急 診 送 進 來 的 時 候 以 剛 剛 那 個 案 例 很 有 可 能 是 這 樣 的 情 況 他 可 能 具 有 攻 擊 性 他 可 能 對 他 人 甚 至 醫 護 人 員 造 成 一 個 暴 力 上 攻 擊 的 風 險 那 我 們 在 警 察 之 軒 行 使 法 警 察 有 強 制 力 對 不 對 在 2 8 條 的 部 分 消 防 法 2 1 條 之 一 2 0 條 之 一 他 有 退 避 權 必 要 的 時 候 消 防 人 員 他 可 以 離 開 危 險 的 現 場\n\n20\n00:07:14,383 --> 00:07:27,662\n那 你 認 為 未 來 在 司 法 精 神 病 院 當 中 我 們 是 不 是 要 同 時 賦 予 這 些 醫 護 人 員 除 了 專 業 的 危 險 家 籍 之 外 應 該 給 他 適 當 的 一 個 法 律 上 的 保 障 這 部 分 醫 療 的 法 規 應 該 有 相 關 的 一 個 具 備 了 嗎 ? 足 夠 了 嗎 ?\n\n21\n00:07:29,407 --> 00:07:47,165\n跟 委 員 報 告 目 前 是 不 是 我 印 象 中 是 在 保 職 法 的 部 分 法 務 部 有 考 量 這 個 因 素 把 他 納 進 來 法 務 部 有 考 量 這 個 因 素 有 納 進 來 哪 一 個 法 律 告 訴 我 們 部 長 保 安 處 分 執 行 法 保 安 處 分 執 行 法 有 沒 有 我 們 會 這 部 分 草 案 目 前 是 草 案 目 前 是 草 案 嗎 好\n\n22\n00:07:47,685 --> 00:08:10,738\n所 以 今 天 我 們 談 這 個 議 題 很 謝 謝 趙 偉 排 這 個 議 題 因 為 這 個 議 題 我 過 去 我 在 胃 環 也 關 心 過 在 這 裡 也 關 心 過 所 以 我 們 希 望 你 們 考 慮 往 下 一 個 怎 麼 樣 完 善 面 對 急 性 精 神 病 患 者 面 對 這 些 急 性 的 精 神 病 急 患 者 的 醫 護 人 員 他 的 安 全 跟 待 遇 未 來 你 們 的 司 法 精 神 病 院 這 些 人 天 天 暴 露 在 這 第 一 險 的 可 能 風 險 當 中 你 認 為 呢 的 確 是\n\n23\n00:08:13,871 --> 00:08:35,948\n那 是 不 是 這 樣 子 那 我 是 不 是 可 以 請 剛 剛 衛 福 部 說 他 們 有 一 個 暴 力 風 險 的 評 估 正 在 研 擬 當 中 你 們 目 前 的 法 案 也 在 整 修 當 中 什 麼 時 候 可 以 給 一 個 完 整 的 報 告 讓 我 們 委 員 會 來 幫 我 們 這 些 未 來 的 精 神 司 法 精 神 病 醫 院 呢 當 中 的 醫 護 人 員 給 他 們 一 些 保 障 那 我 們 來 盡 速 推 動\n\n24\n00:08:36,488 --> 00:08:36,508\n謝 謝 鍾 委 員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n16518\t41031\t謝謝主席的包容就像您上次包容我因為檢報的誤差給我比較多的寬限的時間也您包容我們本會委員的發言的時間好 接下來我們主席在場委員先進離開了列席的政府機關事長、官員會長、公眾夥伴那有請我們法務部正部長和衛福部的代表李簡正衛福部代表\n47020\t60700\t委員長部長好我們李義正好部長其實今天我們要談的是關於司法精神病院跟第一線醫護的安全那剛剛您在回答前面委員的問題我想請教一下這個您對於\n62643\t91016\t手機、通訊業者、基地台這些大數據的管理你有深入的了解嗎?我只有基本的了解基本了解但是我建議你要深入了解其實呢自從建橋事件之後全世界這幾年來啊對於我們掌握的這些通訊資料進入到業者的大數據那麼有沒有隱私上的維護問題這是一個很深入的問題那剛剛呢關心到的那些事件我建議呢未來的科證法\n91656\t115399\t通保法我們本委員會都會排審那希望你要指定專人好好的去研究雖然你們在司法的方面非常專業但是相關的電信跟數據的運用你們要專人來瞭解可以嗎瞭解之後才能夠做正確的一個回應好那接下來我們來看一下上次我就跟你請教過了那麼我們從基隆監護的逃犯那個地方\n115839\t143402\t那個是一般的精神醫療機構對不對是那麼根據我們的保安處分執行法當中其實這些處所呢它的介護人員有沒有採取必要的措施這是由法務部來定沒有錯吧好那我們往下看那其實呢暫行安置與監護處分它的執行機構目前上次也跟你請教過目前我們有在規劃中的司法精神病院跟司法精神病房那麼我去查過你們的資料那你們有\n144022\t161211\t用AI科技設備來做一些安全上的管理比如說我們看到報導高雄的凱旋醫院的周院長呢透過創新科技就是ISAF來建置在我們的手間的司法精神病房是不是這樣子是的\n161451\t164033\t請問除了這些司法精神專用的病院跟病房那在剛剛前述那個基隆的精神醫療機構他有沒有類似的具體安全維護措施?\n183289\t199673\t他最主要是因為我們司法精神病院他這個是高規格的他目前的就是以收治我了解那至於其他的一般的收治機構就是精神醫療機構你們對於當他們\n202250\t228612\t有沒有具有這樣的能力目前是還沒有到達還沒有到達那所以法務部的工作很重要我們往下看根據你們的報告你們打算在113年今天的報告當中114年要完成110年要收治對不對這是司法精神病院的部份司法精神病房醫院這部份醫院的部份那病房的部份呢目前在南部的已經司法精神病院已經但是看起來進度是落後的\n229618\t245863\t那個我們是希望預計在今年那個北部跟東部預計在下半年就可以完成收治另外比較慢的是中部的明年會目前總共就55床對不對但是呢司法精神病院他會有0b效果\n246323\t260059\t那目前我所知道在土地的建造的取得上受到阻礙那另外呢我們熟悉精神醫療的醫護人員他們也反彈關於他們自己醫護人員的人身安全跟配套請問一下我們衛福在代表你們是不是有類似這樣的反應\n261428\t280659\t各位委員報告確實我們當初在招募人員的時候我們有考量這類醫護人員的安全的考量所以來部長你們不只在興建專門的司法精神病院有鄰居設施要跟社區溝通是不是包括鄰居設施之外你們在籌建這個醫院的時候還有醫療人員招募上的困難你了解嗎\n281967\t303837\t醫療人員這部分這個是醫療資源部分這是由衛福部來主管所以你們負責蓋他負責來經營跟管理我們是負責在安全保全的這部分安全維護這部分設施跟培訓好那我們來看一下就是之前也跟您請教過在中間的那個案子那個案子呢他是列管後個案就送醫他是從高雄那邊有列管的好\n304697\t314923\t他本身有其他的外傷我們往下看但是呢就他的一個精神的狀況來講我們舉例來講請教一下衛福代表急性精神疾患者他目前有沒有風險的分級\n317406\t342522\t跟委員報告目前我們在社區訪視的個案他是有1到5級的分級1到5級那如果是急性的呢他要送醫院來急診處一般出院的個案我們都是把它歸類為一級都歸類為一級有分科但是目前呢我們知道你分了一級是沒有另外的額外的風險分級是不是這樣對對我們是基於照護的需要是基於照護的需要但是有沒有思考到他可能會對醫護人員產生攻擊或其他人找生威脅的情況有沒有考慮到這一點有\n343945\t371971\t有但是目前沒有辦法做分級目前我們是有委託這個草寮有一個因為我們有一個call center所以他有個暴力風險那個評估料是的所以你們目前對於急性的精神病患疾患者你們有委託在做他的暴力風險的評估了好部長這個就一個重點了我們來看一下就你所知啊我們的警消人員他們是不是在法律上賦有他們一個禁止或處分的一個權利是的那他們也有危險的職務加急\n373351\t381025\t那你知道未來的司法精神病院對於急性的精神病急患者有沒有加擠有沒有緊急處分的權利有沒有\n383415\t408401\t目前我們在司法、精神病房跟醫院我們都有給醫事人員危險加給有危險加給那他們有沒有其他的對他做拘束的一些權利法律上的授權那就回歸到我們精神衛生法可能會送到保護室那又會做一些約束隔離就是精神衛生法的問題部長我跟你說其實是這樣子這個我需要法務部來幫忙剛剛他們是純粹說就治療的部分\n409401\t432909\t會送到一個保護室去做拘束但是今天呢我們看到是當急診送進來的時候以剛剛那個案例很有可能是這樣的情況他可能具有攻擊性他可能對他人甚至醫護人員造成一個暴力上攻擊的風險那我們在警察之軒行使法警察有強制力對不對在28條的部分消防法21條之一20條之一他有退避權必要的時候消防人員他可以離開危險的現場\n434383\t447662\t那你認為未來在司法精神病院當中我們是不是要同時賦予這些醫護人員除了專業的危險家籍之外應該給他適當的一個法律上的保障這部分醫療的法規應該有相關的一個具備了嗎?足夠了嗎?\n449407\t467165\t跟委員報告目前是不是我印象中是在保職法的部分法務部有考量這個因素把他納進來法務部有考量這個因素有納進來哪一個法律告訴我們部長保安處分執行法保安處分執行法有沒有我們會這部分草案目前是草案目前是草案嗎好\n467685\t490738\t所以今天我們談這個議題很謝謝趙偉排這個議題因為這個議題我過去我在胃環也關心過在這裡也關心過所以我們希望你們考慮往下一個怎麼樣完善面對急性精神病患者面對這些急性的精神病急患者的醫護人員他的安全跟待遇未來你們的司法精神病院這些人天天暴露在這第一險的可能風險當中你認為呢的確是\n493871\t515948\t那是不是這樣子那我是不是可以請剛剛衛福部說他們有一個暴力風險的評估正在研擬當中你們目前的法案也在整修當中什麼時候可以給一個完整的報告讓我們委員會來幫我們這些未來的精神司法精神病醫院呢當中的醫護人員給他們一些保障那我們來盡速推動\n516488\t516508\t謝謝鍾委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席的包容就像您上次包容我因為檢報的誤差給我比較多的寬限的時間也您包容我們本會委員的發言的時間好 接下來我們主席在場委員先進離開了列席的政府機關事長、官員會長、公眾夥伴那有請我們法務部正部長和衛福部的代表李簡正衛福部代表\n委員長部長好我們李義正好部長其實今天我們要談的是關於司法精神病院跟第一線醫護的安全那剛剛您在回答前面委員的問題我想請教一下這個您對於\n手機、通訊業者、基地台這些大數據的管理你有深入的了解嗎?我只有基本的了解基本了解但是我建議你要深入了解其實呢自從建橋事件之後全世界這幾年來啊對於我們掌握的這些通訊資料進入到業者的大數據那麼有沒有隱私上的維護問題這是一個很深入的問題那剛剛呢關心到的那些事件我建議呢未來的科證法\n通保法我們本委員會都會排審那希望你要指定專人好好的去研究雖然你們在司法的方面非常專業但是相關的電信跟數據的運用你們要專人來瞭解可以嗎瞭解之後才能夠做正確的一個回應好那接下來我們來看一下上次我就跟你請教過了那麼我們從基隆監護的逃犯那個地方\n那個是一般的精神醫療機構對不對是那麼根據我們的保安處分執行法當中其實這些處所呢它的介護人員有沒有採取必要的措施這是由法務部來定沒有錯吧好那我們往下看那其實呢暫行安置與監護處分它的執行機構目前上次也跟你請教過目前我們有在規劃中的司法精神病院跟司法精神病房那麼我去查過你們的資料那你們有\n用AI科技設備來做一些安全上的管理比如說我們看到報導高雄的凱旋醫院的周院長呢透過創新科技就是ISAF來建置在我們的手間的司法精神病房是不是這樣子是的\n請問除了這些司法精神專用的病院跟病房那在剛剛前述那個基隆的精神醫療機構他有沒有類似的具體安全維護措施?\n他最主要是因為我們司法精神病院他這個是高規格的他目前的就是以收治我了解那至於其他的一般的收治機構就是精神醫療機構你們對於當他們\n有沒有具有這樣的能力目前是還沒有到達還沒有到達那所以法務部的工作很重要我們往下看根據你們的報告你們打算在113年今天的報告當中114年要完成110年要收治對不對這是司法精神病院的部份司法精神病房醫院這部份醫院的部份那病房的部份呢目前在南部的已經司法精神病院已經但是看起來進度是落後的\n那個我們是希望預計在今年那個北部跟東部預計在下半年就可以完成收治另外比較慢的是中部的明年會目前總共就55床對不對但是呢司法精神病院他會有0b效果\n那目前我所知道在土地的建造的取得上受到阻礙那另外呢我們熟悉精神醫療的醫護人員他們也反彈關於他們自己醫護人員的人身安全跟配套請問一下我們衛福在代表你們是不是有類似這樣的反應\n各位委員報告確實我們當初在招募人員的時候我們有考量這類醫護人員的安全的考量所以來部長你們不只在興建專門的司法精神病院有鄰居設施要跟社區溝通是不是包括鄰居設施之外你們在籌建這個醫院的時候還有醫療人員招募上的困難你了解嗎\n醫療人員這部分這個是醫療資源部分這是由衛福部來主管所以你們負責蓋他負責來經營跟管理我們是負責在安全保全的這部分安全維護這部分設施跟培訓好那我們來看一下就是之前也跟您請教過在中間的那個案子那個案子呢他是列管後個案就送醫他是從高雄那邊有列管的好\n他本身有其他的外傷我們往下看但是呢就他的一個精神的狀況來講我們舉例來講請教一下衛福代表急性精神疾患者他目前有沒有風險的分級\n跟委員報告目前我們在社區訪視的個案他是有1到5級的分級1到5級那如果是急性的呢他要送醫院來急診處一般出院的個案我們都是把它歸類為一級都歸類為一級有分科但是目前呢我們知道你分了一級是沒有另外的額外的風險分級是不是這樣對對我們是基於照護的需要是基於照護的需要但是有沒有思考到他可能會對醫護人員產生攻擊或其他人找生威脅的情況有沒有考慮到這一點有\n有但是目前沒有辦法做分級目前我們是有委託這個草寮有一個因為我們有一個call center所以他有個暴力風險那個評估料是的所以你們目前對於急性的精神病患疾患者你們有委託在做他的暴力風險的評估了好部長這個就一個重點了我們來看一下就你所知啊我們的警消人員他們是不是在法律上賦有他們一個禁止或處分的一個權利是的那他們也有危險的職務加急\n那你知道未來的司法精神病院對於急性的精神病急患者有沒有加擠有沒有緊急處分的權利有沒有\n目前我們在司法、精神病房跟醫院我們都有給醫事人員危險加給有危險加給那他們有沒有其他的對他做拘束的一些權利法律上的授權那就回歸到我們精神衛生法可能會送到保護室那又會做一些約束隔離就是精神衛生法的問題部長我跟你說其實是這樣子這個我需要法務部來幫忙剛剛他們是純粹說就治療的部分\n會送到一個保護室去做拘束但是今天呢我們看到是當急診送進來的時候以剛剛那個案例很有可能是這樣的情況他可能具有攻擊性他可能對他人甚至醫護人員造成一個暴力上攻擊的風險那我們在警察之軒行使法警察有強制力對不對在28條的部分消防法21條之一20條之一他有退避權必要的時候消防人員他可以離開危險的現場\n那你認為未來在司法精神病院當中我們是不是要同時賦予這些醫護人員除了專業的危險家籍之外應該給他適當的一個法律上的保障這部分醫療的法規應該有相關的一個具備了嗎?足夠了嗎?\n跟委員報告目前是不是我印象中是在保職法的部分法務部有考量這個因素把他納進來法務部有考量這個因素有納進來哪一個法律告訴我們部長保安處分執行法保安處分執行法有沒有我們會這部分草案目前是草案目前是草案嗎好\n所以今天我們談這個議題很謝謝趙偉排這個議題因為這個議題我過去我在胃環也關心過在這裡也關心過所以我們希望你們考慮往下一個怎麼樣完善面對急性精神病患者面對這些急性的精神病急患者的醫護人員他的安全跟待遇未來你們的司法精神病院這些人天天暴露在這第一險的可能風險當中你認為呢的確是\n那是不是這樣子那我是不是可以請剛剛衛福部說他們有一個暴力風險的評估正在研擬當中你們目前的法案也在整修當中什麼時候可以給一個完整的報告讓我們委員會來幫我們這些未來的精神司法精神病醫院呢當中的醫護人員給他們一些保障那我們來盡速推動\n謝謝鍾委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:16.518 --> 00:41.031\n謝 謝 主 席 的 包 容 就 像 您 上 次 包 容 我 因 為 檢 報 的 誤 差 給 我 比 較 多 的 寬 限 的 時 間 也 您 包 容 我 們 本 會 委 員 的 發 言 的 時 間 好 接 下 來 我 們 主 席 在 場 委 員 先 進 離 開 了 列 席 的 政 府 機 關 事 長 、 官 員 會 長 、 公 眾 夥 伴 那 有 請 我 們 法 務 部 正 部 長 和 衛 福 部 的 代 表 李 簡 正 衛 福 部 代 表\n\n00:47.020 --> 01:00.700\n委 員 長 部 長 好 我 們 李 義 正 好 部 長 其 實 今 天 我 們 要 談 的 是 關 於 司 法 精 神 病 院 跟 第 一 線 醫 護 的 安 全 那 剛 剛 您 在 回 答 前 面 委 員 的 問 題 我 想 請 教 一 下 這 個 您 對 於\n\n01:02.643 --> 01:31.016\n手 機 、 通 訊 業 者 、 基 地 台 這 些 大 數 據 的 管 理 你 有 深 入 的 了 解 嗎 ? 我 只 有 基 本 的 了 解 基 本 了 解 但 是 我 建 議 你 要 深 入 了 解 其 實 呢 自 從 建 橋 事 件 之 後 全 世 界 這 幾 年 來 啊 對 於 我 們 掌 握 的 這 些 通 訊 資 料 進 入 到 業 者 的 大 數 據 那 麼 有 沒 有 隱 私 上 的 維 護 問 題 這 是 一 個 很 深 入 的 問 題 那 剛 剛 呢 關 心 到 的 那 些 事 件 我 建 議 呢 未 來 的 科 證 法\n\n01:31.656 --> 01:55.399\n通 保 法 我 們 本 委 員 會 都 會 排 審 那 希 望 你 要 指 定 專 人 好 好 的 去 研 究 雖 然 你 們 在 司 法 的 方 面 非 常 專 業 但 是 相 關 的 電 信 跟 數 據 的 運 用 你 們 要 專 人 來 瞭 解 可 以 嗎 瞭 解 之 後 才 能 夠 做 正 確 的 一 個 回 應 好 那 接 下 來 我 們 來 看 一 下 上 次 我 就 跟 你 請 教 過 了 那 麼 我 們 從 基 隆 監 護 的 逃 犯 那 個 地 方\n\n01:55.839 --> 02:23.402\n那 個 是 一 般 的 精 神 醫 療 機 構 對 不 對 是 那 麼 根 據 我 們 的 保 安 處 分 執 行 法 當 中 其 實 這 些 處 所 呢 它 的 介 護 人 員 有 沒 有 採 取 必 要 的 措 施 這 是 由 法 務 部 來 定 沒 有 錯 吧 好 那 我 們 往 下 看 那 其 實 呢 暫 行 安 置 與 監 護 處 分 它 的 執 行 機 構 目 前 上 次 也 跟 你 請 教 過 目 前 我 們 有 在 規 劃 中 的 司 法 精 神 病 院 跟 司 法 精 神 病 房 那 麼 我 去 查 過 你 們 的 資 料 那 你 們 有\n\n02:24.022 --> 02:41.211\n用 A I 科 技 設 備 來 做 一 些 安 全 上 的 管 理 比 如 說 我 們 看 到 報 導 高 雄 的 凱 旋 醫 院 的 周 院 長 呢 透 過 創 新 科 技 就 是 I S A F 來 建 置 在 我 們 的 手 間 的 司 法 精 神 病 房 是 不 是 這 樣 子 是 的\n\n02:41.451 --> 02:44.033\n請 問 除 了 這 些 司 法 精 神 專 用 的 病 院 跟 病 房 那 在 剛 剛 前 述 那 個 基 隆 的 精 神 醫 療 機 構 他 有 沒 有 類 似 的 具 體 安 全 維 護 措 施 ?\n\n03:03.289 --> 03:19.673\n他 最 主 要 是 因 為 我 們 司 法 精 神 病 院 他 這 個 是 高 規 格 的 他 目 前 的 就 是 以 收 治 我 了 解 那 至 於 其 他 的 一 般 的 收 治 機 構 就 是 精 神 醫 療 機 構 你 們 對 於 當 他 們\n\n03:22.250 --> 03:48.612\n有 沒 有 具 有 這 樣 的 能 力 目 前 是 還 沒 有 到 達 還 沒 有 到 達 那 所 以 法 務 部 的 工 作 很 重 要 我 們 往 下 看 根 據 你 們 的 報 告 你 們 打 算 在 1 1 3 年 今 天 的 報 告 當 中 1 1 4 年 要 完 成 1 1 0 年 要 收 治 對 不 對 這 是 司 法 精 神 病 院 的 部 份 司 法 精 神 病 房 醫 院 這 部 份 醫 院 的 部 份 那 病 房 的 部 份 呢 目 前 在 南 部 的 已 經 司 法 精 神 病 院 已 經 但 是 看 起 來 進 度 是 落 後 的\n\n03:49.618 --> 04:05.863\n那 個 我 們 是 希 望 預 計 在 今 年 那 個 北 部 跟 東 部 預 計 在 下 半 年 就 可 以 完 成 收 治 另 外 比 較 慢 的 是 中 部 的 明 年 會 目 前 總 共 就 5 5 床 對 不 對 但 是 呢 司 法 精 神 病 院 他 會 有 0 b 效 果\n\n04:06.323 --> 04:20.059\n那 目 前 我 所 知 道 在 土 地 的 建 造 的 取 得 上 受 到 阻 礙 那 另 外 呢 我 們 熟 悉 精 神 醫 療 的 醫 護 人 員 他 們 也 反 彈 關 於 他 們 自 己 醫 護 人 員 的 人 身 安 全 跟 配 套 請 問 一 下 我 們 衛 福 在 代 表 你 們 是 不 是 有 類 似 這 樣 的 反 應\n\n04:21.428 --> 04:40.659\n各 位 委 員 報 告 確 實 我 們 當 初 在 招 募 人 員 的 時 候 我 們 有 考 量 這 類 醫 護 人 員 的 安 全 的 考 量 所 以 來 部 長 你 們 不 只 在 興 建 專 門 的 司 法 精 神 病 院 有 鄰 居 設 施 要 跟 社 區 溝 通 是 不 是 包 括 鄰 居 設 施 之 外 你 們 在 籌 建 這 個 醫 院 的 時 候 還 有 醫 療 人 員 招 募 上 的 困 難 你 了 解 嗎\n\n04:41.967 --> 05:03.837\n醫 療 人 員 這 部 分 這 個 是 醫 療 資 源 部 分 這 是 由 衛 福 部 來 主 管 所 以 你 們 負 責 蓋 他 負 責 來 經 營 跟 管 理 我 們 是 負 責 在 安 全 保 全 的 這 部 分 安 全 維 護 這 部 分 設 施 跟 培 訓 好 那 我 們 來 看 一 下 就 是 之 前 也 跟 您 請 教 過 在 中 間 的 那 個 案 子 那 個 案 子 呢 他 是 列 管 後 個 案 就 送 醫 他 是 從 高 雄 那 邊 有 列 管 的 好\n\n05:04.697 --> 05:14.923\n他 本 身 有 其 他 的 外 傷 我 們 往 下 看 但 是 呢 就 他 的 一 個 精 神 的 狀 況 來 講 我 們 舉 例 來 講 請 教 一 下 衛 福 代 表 急 性 精 神 疾 患 者 他 目 前 有 沒 有 風 險 的 分 級\n\n05:17.406 --> 05:42.522\n跟 委 員 報 告 目 前 我 們 在 社 區 訪 視 的 個 案 他 是 有 1 到 5 級 的 分 級 1 到 5 級 那 如 果 是 急 性 的 呢 他 要 送 醫 院 來 急 診 處 一 般 出 院 的 個 案 我 們 都 是 把 它 歸 類 為 一 級 都 歸 類 為 一 級 有 分 科 但 是 目 前 呢 我 們 知 道 你 分 了 一 級 是 沒 有 另 外 的 額 外 的 風 險 分 級 是 不 是 這 樣 對 對 我 們 是 基 於 照 護 的 需 要 是 基 於 照 護 的 需 要 但 是 有 沒 有 思 考 到 他 可 能 會 對 醫 護 人 員 產 生 攻 擊 或 其 他 人 找 生 威 脅 的 情 況 有 沒 有 考 慮 到 這 一 點 有\n\n05:43.945 --> 06:11.971\n有 但 是 目 前 沒 有 辦 法 做 分 級 目 前 我 們 是 有 委 託 這 個 草 寮 有 一 個 因 為 我 們 有 一 個 c a l l c e n t e r 所 以 他 有 個 暴 力 風 險 那 個 評 估 料 是 的 所 以 你 們 目 前 對 於 急 性 的 精 神 病 患 疾 患 者 你 們 有 委 託 在 做 他 的 暴 力 風 險 的 評 估 了 好 部 長 這 個 就 一 個 重 點 了 我 們 來 看 一 下 就 你 所 知 啊 我 們 的 警 消 人 員 他 們 是 不 是 在 法 律 上 賦 有 他 們 一 個 禁 止 或 處 分 的 一 個 權 利 是 的 那 他 們 也 有 危 險 的 職 務 加 急\n\n06:13.351 --> 06:21.025\n那 你 知 道 未 來 的 司 法 精 神 病 院 對 於 急 性 的 精 神 病 急 患 者 有 沒 有 加 擠 有 沒 有 緊 急 處 分 的 權 利 有 沒 有\n\n06:23.415 --> 06:48.401\n目 前 我 們 在 司 法 、 精 神 病 房 跟 醫 院 我 們 都 有 給 醫 事 人 員 危 險 加 給 有 危 險 加 給 那 他 們 有 沒 有 其 他 的 對 他 做 拘 束 的 一 些 權 利 法 律 上 的 授 權 那 就 回 歸 到 我 們 精 神 衛 生 法 可 能 會 送 到 保 護 室 那 又 會 做 一 些 約 束 隔 離 就 是 精 神 衛 生 法 的 問 題 部 長 我 跟 你 說 其 實 是 這 樣 子 這 個 我 需 要 法 務 部 來 幫 忙 剛 剛 他 們 是 純 粹 說 就 治 療 的 部 分\n\n06:49.401 --> 07:12.909\n會 送 到 一 個 保 護 室 去 做 拘 束 但 是 今 天 呢 我 們 看 到 是 當 急 診 送 進 來 的 時 候 以 剛 剛 那 個 案 例 很 有 可 能 是 這 樣 的 情 況 他 可 能 具 有 攻 擊 性 他 可 能 對 他 人 甚 至 醫 護 人 員 造 成 一 個 暴 力 上 攻 擊 的 風 險 那 我 們 在 警 察 之 軒 行 使 法 警 察 有 強 制 力 對 不 對 在 2 8 條 的 部 分 消 防 法 2 1 條 之 一 2 0 條 之 一 他 有 退 避 權 必 要 的 時 候 消 防 人 員 他 可 以 離 開 危 險 的 現 場\n\n07:14.383 --> 07:27.662\n那 你 認 為 未 來 在 司 法 精 神 病 院 當 中 我 們 是 不 是 要 同 時 賦 予 這 些 醫 護 人 員 除 了 專 業 的 危 險 家 籍 之 外 應 該 給 他 適 當 的 一 個 法 律 上 的 保 障 這 部 分 醫 療 的 法 規 應 該 有 相 關 的 一 個 具 備 了 嗎 ? 足 夠 了 嗎 ?\n\n07:29.407 --> 07:47.165\n跟 委 員 報 告 目 前 是 不 是 我 印 象 中 是 在 保 職 法 的 部 分 法 務 部 有 考 量 這 個 因 素 把 他 納 進 來 法 務 部 有 考 量 這 個 因 素 有 納 進 來 哪 一 個 法 律 告 訴 我 們 部 長 保 安 處 分 執 行 法 保 安 處 分 執 行 法 有 沒 有 我 們 會 這 部 分 草 案 目 前 是 草 案 目 前 是 草 案 嗎 好\n\n07:47.685 --> 08:10.738\n所 以 今 天 我 們 談 這 個 議 題 很 謝 謝 趙 偉 排 這 個 議 題 因 為 這 個 議 題 我 過 去 我 在 胃 環 也 關 心 過 在 這 裡 也 關 心 過 所 以 我 們 希 望 你 們 考 慮 往 下 一 個 怎 麼 樣 完 善 面 對 急 性 精 神 病 患 者 面 對 這 些 急 性 的 精 神 病 急 患 者 的 醫 護 人 員 他 的 安 全 跟 待 遇 未 來 你 們 的 司 法 精 神 病 院 這 些 人 天 天 暴 露 在 這 第 一 險 的 可 能 風 險 當 中 你 認 為 呢 的 確 是\n\n08:13.871 --> 08:35.948\n那 是 不 是 這 樣 子 那 我 是 不 是 可 以 請 剛 剛 衛 福 部 說 他 們 有 一 個 暴 力 風 險 的 評 估 正 在 研 擬 當 中 你 們 目 前 的 法 案 也 在 整 修 當 中 什 麼 時 候 可 以 給 一 個 完 整 的 報 告 讓 我 們 委 員 會 來 幫 我 們 這 些 未 來 的 精 神 司 法 精 神 病 醫 院 呢 當 中 的 醫 護 人 員 給 他 們 一 些 保 障 那 我 們 來 盡 速 推 動\n\n08:36.488 --> 08:36.508\n謝 謝 鍾 委 員\n\n","segments":[{"start":16.518,"end":41.031,"text":"謝謝主席的包容就像您上次包容我因為檢報的誤差給我比較多的寬限的時間也您包容我們本會委員的發言的時間好 接下來我們主席在場委員先進離開了列席的政府機關事長、官員會長、公眾夥伴那有請我們法務部正部長和衛福部的代表李簡正衛福部代表"},{"start":47.02,"end":60.7,"text":"委員長部長好我們李義正好部長其實今天我們要談的是關於司法精神病院跟第一線醫護的安全那剛剛您在回答前面委員的問題我想請教一下這個您對於"},{"start":62.643,"end":91.016,"text":"手機、通訊業者、基地台這些大數據的管理你有深入的了解嗎?我只有基本的了解基本了解但是我建議你要深入了解其實呢自從建橋事件之後全世界這幾年來啊對於我們掌握的這些通訊資料進入到業者的大數據那麼有沒有隱私上的維護問題這是一個很深入的問題那剛剛呢關心到的那些事件我建議呢未來的科證法"},{"start":91.656,"end":115.399,"text":"通保法我們本委員會都會排審那希望你要指定專人好好的去研究雖然你們在司法的方面非常專業但是相關的電信跟數據的運用你們要專人來瞭解可以嗎瞭解之後才能夠做正確的一個回應好那接下來我們來看一下上次我就跟你請教過了那麼我們從基隆監護的逃犯那個地方"},{"start":115.839,"end":143.402,"text":"那個是一般的精神醫療機構對不對是那麼根據我們的保安處分執行法當中其實這些處所呢它的介護人員有沒有採取必要的措施這是由法務部來定沒有錯吧好那我們往下看那其實呢暫行安置與監護處分它的執行機構目前上次也跟你請教過目前我們有在規劃中的司法精神病院跟司法精神病房那麼我去查過你們的資料那你們有"},{"start":144.022,"end":161.211,"text":"用AI科技設備來做一些安全上的管理比如說我們看到報導高雄的凱旋醫院的周院長呢透過創新科技就是ISAF來建置在我們的手間的司法精神病房是不是這樣子是的"},{"start":161.451,"end":164.033,"text":"請問除了這些司法精神專用的病院跟病房那在剛剛前述那個基隆的精神醫療機構他有沒有類似的具體安全維護措施?"},{"start":183.289,"end":199.673,"text":"他最主要是因為我們司法精神病院他這個是高規格的他目前的就是以收治我了解那至於其他的一般的收治機構就是精神醫療機構你們對於當他們"},{"start":202.25,"end":228.612,"text":"有沒有具有這樣的能力目前是還沒有到達還沒有到達那所以法務部的工作很重要我們往下看根據你們的報告你們打算在113年今天的報告當中114年要完成110年要收治對不對這是司法精神病院的部份司法精神病房醫院這部份醫院的部份那病房的部份呢目前在南部的已經司法精神病院已經但是看起來進度是落後的"},{"start":229.618,"end":245.863,"text":"那個我們是希望預計在今年那個北部跟東部預計在下半年就可以完成收治另外比較慢的是中部的明年會目前總共就55床對不對但是呢司法精神病院他會有0b效果"},{"start":246.323,"end":260.059,"text":"那目前我所知道在土地的建造的取得上受到阻礙那另外呢我們熟悉精神醫療的醫護人員他們也反彈關於他們自己醫護人員的人身安全跟配套請問一下我們衛福在代表你們是不是有類似這樣的反應"},{"start":261.428,"end":280.659,"text":"各位委員報告確實我們當初在招募人員的時候我們有考量這類醫護人員的安全的考量所以來部長你們不只在興建專門的司法精神病院有鄰居設施要跟社區溝通是不是包括鄰居設施之外你們在籌建這個醫院的時候還有醫療人員招募上的困難你了解嗎"},{"start":281.967,"end":303.837,"text":"醫療人員這部分這個是醫療資源部分這是由衛福部來主管所以你們負責蓋他負責來經營跟管理我們是負責在安全保全的這部分安全維護這部分設施跟培訓好那我們來看一下就是之前也跟您請教過在中間的那個案子那個案子呢他是列管後個案就送醫他是從高雄那邊有列管的好"},{"start":304.697,"end":314.923,"text":"他本身有其他的外傷我們往下看但是呢就他的一個精神的狀況來講我們舉例來講請教一下衛福代表急性精神疾患者他目前有沒有風險的分級"},{"start":317.406,"end":342.522,"text":"跟委員報告目前我們在社區訪視的個案他是有1到5級的分級1到5級那如果是急性的呢他要送醫院來急診處一般出院的個案我們都是把它歸類為一級都歸類為一級有分科但是目前呢我們知道你分了一級是沒有另外的額外的風險分級是不是這樣對對我們是基於照護的需要是基於照護的需要但是有沒有思考到他可能會對醫護人員產生攻擊或其他人找生威脅的情況有沒有考慮到這一點有"},{"start":343.945,"end":371.971,"text":"有但是目前沒有辦法做分級目前我們是有委託這個草寮有一個因為我們有一個call center所以他有個暴力風險那個評估料是的所以你們目前對於急性的精神病患疾患者你們有委託在做他的暴力風險的評估了好部長這個就一個重點了我們來看一下就你所知啊我們的警消人員他們是不是在法律上賦有他們一個禁止或處分的一個權利是的那他們也有危險的職務加急"},{"start":373.351,"end":381.025,"text":"那你知道未來的司法精神病院對於急性的精神病急患者有沒有加擠有沒有緊急處分的權利有沒有"},{"start":383.415,"end":408.401,"text":"目前我們在司法、精神病房跟醫院我們都有給醫事人員危險加給有危險加給那他們有沒有其他的對他做拘束的一些權利法律上的授權那就回歸到我們精神衛生法可能會送到保護室那又會做一些約束隔離就是精神衛生法的問題部長我跟你說其實是這樣子這個我需要法務部來幫忙剛剛他們是純粹說就治療的部分"},{"start":409.401,"end":432.909,"text":"會送到一個保護室去做拘束但是今天呢我們看到是當急診送進來的時候以剛剛那個案例很有可能是這樣的情況他可能具有攻擊性他可能對他人甚至醫護人員造成一個暴力上攻擊的風險那我們在警察之軒行使法警察有強制力對不對在28條的部分消防法21條之一20條之一他有退避權必要的時候消防人員他可以離開危險的現場"},{"start":434.383,"end":447.662,"text":"那你認為未來在司法精神病院當中我們是不是要同時賦予這些醫護人員除了專業的危險家籍之外應該給他適當的一個法律上的保障這部分醫療的法規應該有相關的一個具備了嗎?足夠了嗎?"},{"start":449.407,"end":467.165,"text":"跟委員報告目前是不是我印象中是在保職法的部分法務部有考量這個因素把他納進來法務部有考量這個因素有納進來哪一個法律告訴我們部長保安處分執行法保安處分執行法有沒有我們會這部分草案目前是草案目前是草案嗎好"},{"start":467.685,"end":490.738,"text":"所以今天我們談這個議題很謝謝趙偉排這個議題因為這個議題我過去我在胃環也關心過在這裡也關心過所以我們希望你們考慮往下一個怎麼樣完善面對急性精神病患者面對這些急性的精神病急患者的醫護人員他的安全跟待遇未來你們的司法精神病院這些人天天暴露在這第一險的可能風險當中你認為呢的確是"},{"start":493.871,"end":515.948,"text":"那是不是這樣子那我是不是可以請剛剛衛福部說他們有一個暴力風險的評估正在研擬當中你們目前的法案也在整修當中什麼時候可以給一個完整的報告讓我們委員會來幫我們這些未來的精神司法精神病醫院呢當中的醫護人員給他們一些保障那我們來盡速推動"},{"start":516.488,"end":516.508,"text":"謝謝鍾委員"}]}}}}