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10:22:18","影片長度":"00:07:31","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":451,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T10:22:18+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T10:14:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":371,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（10時14分）請林次長和陳主委。"],["主席：好，請主委和次長，謝謝。"],["林次長全能：委員好。"],["陳主任委員東陽：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：次長和主委早。其實核三的問題和核廢料的處置問題，本席認為這個事情不分藍綠，也相信不管哪個政黨的委員，都不希望安全亂搞，或者核廢料亂搞。本席很想順著剛才國民黨葉元之委員的問題往下問，剛才次長說到現在核廢料的處置，其實處置和貯存不一樣，處置指的是最終處置。","事實上昨天本席也看了國發會劉鏡清主委的說法，有一個地方看起來有點不太精準，其實歐盟並沒有說有貯存就是綠能，歐盟的說法是核電要有詳細的、負責任的最終處置計畫，它才能夠被列入綠色融資，這還是有一些差別的。本席現在想要問，假設我們現在談最終處置，剛才次長說現在核廢料的處置是大問題，問題在哪？"],["林次長全能：確實，關於核廢料的處理，我們現在需要去尋找適當的最終處置地點。我剛才提到的大問題，那是一個很複雜的問題，例如最終處置要做相關調查，因為沒有法律規定，沒有辦法去做調查。"],["洪委員申翰：次長，其實我們應該更清楚的讓大家知道，現在核廢處置最大的問題是什麼，今天不管是哪一個國家要怎麼處理核廢料，都需要一個地點嘛！"],["林次長全能：對。"],["洪委員申翰：它都要一個location嘛！核廢料不會飄在空中，也沒有辦法打到外太空，所以需要一個地點。這個地點就需要一個具體的空間，所以我們現在遇到的最大問題，就是這個空間到底在哪裡？這不是簡單的技術問題，是地點在哪裡的問題。所以本席想問，現在新北市侯市長有說他們願意做為最終處置場址嗎？"],["林次長全能：沒有，這不是。他是……"],["洪委員申翰：屏東現在有核三，周縣長有說他們願意成為最終處置場址嗎？"],["林次長全能：沒有。"],["洪委員申翰：現在有哪一個縣市表態願意成為最終處置場址？"],["林次長全能：目前都沒有。"],["洪委員申翰：這個問題就在這裡，今天如果沒有縣市願意成為最終處置場址，請問最終處置場址如何選址？不管條例怎麼規定，終究是無法前進嘛！你可能去做地質調查就被人家打槍了。"],["林次長全能：是的。"],["洪委員申翰：你只要說我們是來做核廢料最終處置場址的地質調查，他們就不讓你們進去了。好，本席覺得這部分經濟部是可以說清楚的，我們不是要把這件事情推給地方政府，不是的！而是很明確的，在尋找場址的過程中，它就是需要一個地點嘛！今天只要這個地點沒有出現，本席坦白說，不管這方面的計畫怎麼寫都是虛的。本席也很清楚，你們可以做很多paperwork，但是只要那個地點，連潛在場址、候選場址都不願意被列入，後面很多工作絕對進行不下去，對不對？次長。"],["林次長全能：是的。委員很清楚的道出，我們在進行最終處置場址選址時面臨的問題。"],["洪委員申翰：次長，本席的意思不是說你們就不用努力，以一個政府該負責任的政策角度來說，經濟部當然要努力去尋找可能的地點，這部分本席還是要要求經濟部。"],["林次長全能：是，我們會努力進行這項工作。"],["洪委員申翰：但問題點還是在根本沒有地方願意，本席覺得這件事情要說清楚，這是第一點。第二點，本席今天要問的事情是，在野黨委員提出關於延役的一些修法版本中，本席看到一個狀況，好像有部分委員提出來的版本，是想要讓我們的核電廠在沒有執照的狀況下就能繼續運轉，這讓大家很擔心，在喪失執照或執照到期的狀況之下，還可以讓它繼續運轉？所以本席要問台電。"],["許副總經理永輝：沒有執照就沒有辦法運轉。"],["洪委員申翰：一個核電機組，有辦法在執照失效、到期等種種狀況，在沒有執照的情境下還可以繼續運轉嗎？"],["許副總經理永輝：不行。"],["洪委員申翰：這是法規的問題，還是安全的問題？"],["許副總經理永輝：有法規的問題，也有安全的問題。"],["洪委員申翰：本席坦白說，延役與否，今天在野黨有各種不同的看法和立場，這件事情大家尊重，但本席看到有部分版本是要讓核電廠沒有執照就能夠運轉，今天一輛車沒有駕照、沒有行照可以上路嗎？本席覺得這個事情已經觸犯安全方面的紅線。","今天我們用什麼方式確保核電廠的安全？就是在執照的審查設下諸多嚴格的關卡確保，你要拿這個執照，就要符合一定的安全要求，所以如果今天一座核電廠，可以在沒有執照或執照喪失的狀況之下還能夠運轉，請問，確保安全的機制怎麼產生？主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：關於這個問題，執照到期就不能繼續運轉，這在核管法第六條第二項有明確說明，我們在國際的相關案例中，也沒有找到類似的案子。"],["洪委員申翰：主委，但是現在在野黨的修法版本，是在法規直接允許沒有執照可以繼續運轉，在安全方面，請問你們怎麼確保？"],["陳主任委員東陽：所以沒有辦法確保安全的問題。"],["洪委員申翰：所以這不是修法的問題，對不對？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是安全的問題。"],["洪委員申翰：這是安全的問題。沒有執照的確保，就沒有安全，對你們來說是這樣，很清楚，對不對？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的，很清楚。"],["洪委員申翰：本席覺得延役與否，大家可以各自討論，但如果要去闖這條紅線，讓它在沒有執照的狀況下運轉，等於是要犧牲核能安全，這是大家沒辦法接受的事情。主委，這件事不分部會，都應該把這個立場表明清楚，可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：了解，沒有問題。"],["洪委員申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來請萬美玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪申翰","陳秀寳","萬美玲","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","張嘉郡","陳培瑜","張智倫","林倩綺","羅智強","吳春城","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠\n延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00004"}},"transcript":{"id":"153198","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153198","tool":"pyannote","id":"153198-pyannote"},"job_id":"vzzkAUA5YtnOp3qc","queued_at":"2024-05-30 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\"en\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,029 --> 00:00:00,590\n請 林 次 長 跟 陳 主 委 我 們 請 主 委 跟 次 長 謝 謝\n\n2\n00:00:21,857 --> 00:00:43,593\n市 長 跟 昨 天 早 其 實 我 想 核 安 的 問 題 跟 核 廢 料 的 處 置 的 問 題 我 認 為 這 個 事 情 是 不 分 藍 綠 的 我 相 信 沒 有 哪 一 個 政 黨 的 委 員 會 希 望 安 全 亂 搞 或 者 是 核 廢 料 亂 搞\n\n3\n00:00:45,592 --> 00:01:09,625\n那 我 這 邊 其 實 我 是 很 想 順 著 剛 剛 國 民 黨 業 源 支 委 員 問 的 問 題 再 往 下 問 的 剛 剛 次 長 說 我 們 現 在 核 廢 的 處 置 其 實 處 置 跟 儲 存 不 一 樣 啦 處 置 指 的 是 最 終 處 置 事 實 上 昨 天 我 看 了 一 下 國 發 會 劉 金 星 主 委 的 講 法 其 實 有 一 個 地 方 看 起 來 是 有 一 點 不 太 精 準\n\n4\n00:01:10,706 --> 00:01:34,238\n其 實 歐 盟 並 沒 有 說 有 儲 存 它 就 是 綠 能 其 實 歐 盟 的 說 法 是 核 電 要 有 詳 細 的 負 責 任 的 最 終 處 置 計 畫 它 才 能 夠 被 列 入 綠 色 融 資 這 其 實 還 是 有 一 些 差 別 的 那 我 就 是 現 在 想 問 現 在 我 們 在 談 假 設 談 最 終 處 置 剛 剛 次 長 說 現 在 核 廢 料 的 處 置 是 大 問 題\n\n5\n00:01:41,705 --> 00:02:01,056\n問 題 在 哪 ? 我 跟 委 員 報 告 確 實 我 們 現 在 核 廢 料 的 一 個 處 理 他 是 需 要 去 尋 找 適 當 的 最 終 處 置 我 剛 剛 提 到 的 那 個 大 問 題 他 是 一 個 很 複 雜 的 問 題 比 如 說 我 們 最 終 處 置 要 去 做 這 個 相 關 的 調 查 因 為 沒 有 法 律 的 規 定 都 沒 有 辦 法 去 做 調 查\n\n6\n00:02:04,149 --> 00:02:31,475\n其 實 我 們 應 該 更 清 楚 的 讓 大 家 知 道 現 在 核 廢 處 置 最 大 的 問 題 我 今 天 不 管 哪 一 個 國 家 我 要 怎 麼 處 理 核 廢 料 他 都 要 一 個 地 點 嘛 他 都 要 一 個 l o c a t i o n 嘛 核 廢 料 不 會 飄 在 空 中 嘛 核 廢 料 沒 有 辦 法 打 到 外 太 空 嘛 我 都 要 一 個 地 點 嘛 那 這 個 地 點 他 就 需 要 一 個 具 體 的 空 間 嘛 所 以 我 們 現 在 遇 到 最 大 的 問 題 就 是 這 空 間 到 底 在 哪 裡\n\n7\n00:02:33,015 --> 00:02:51,803\n這 可 能 不 是 簡 單 的 技 術 問 題 這 就 是 一 個 地 點 在 哪 裡 的 問 題 所 以 我 想 問 現 在 新 北 市 侯 市 長 有 說 他 願 意 作 為 最 終 處 置 場 址 嗎 沒 有 這 不 是 他 自 平 東 現 在 有 河 山 周 縣 長 有 說 他 願 意 成 為 最 終 處 置 場 址 嗎\n\n8\n00:02:53,223 --> 00:03:21,110\n沒 有 現 在 有 哪 一 個 縣 市 表 態 說 他 願 意 成 為 最 終 處 置 場 址 目 前 都 沒 有 這 問 題 是 在 這 裡 嘛 今 天 如 果 沒 有 一 個 縣 市 願 意 成 為 最 終 處 置 場 址 請 問 最 終 處 置 場 址 的 選 址 不 管 條 例 怎 麼 定 終 究 無 法 前 進 嘛 你 可 能 去 做 一 個 地 質 調 查 人 家 就 打 槍 你 了 吧 你 說 我 來 做 核 廢 最 終 處 置 場 址 的 地 質 調 查 他 就 不 讓 你 進 去 了\n\n9\n00:03:23,708 --> 00:03:48,546\n所 以 今 天 我 覺 得 這 部 分 經 濟 部 是 可 以 講 清 楚 的 我 們 不 是 要 把 這 件 事 情 推 給 地 方 政 府 不 是 不 是 要 推 給 地 方 政 府 是 明 確 的 在 這 個 技 術 尋 找 長 期 的 過 程 他 就 是 要 一 個 地 點 嘛 今 天 只 要 這 個 地 點 沒 出 來 我 坦 白 說 你 不 管 這 上 面 計 畫 怎 麼 寫 那 個 都 是 虛 的 我 自 己 很 清 楚 你 可 以 做 很 多 p a p e r w o r k\n\n10\n00:03:49,892 --> 00:04:14,398\n但 只 要 那 個 地 點 連 潛 在 廠 址 候 選 廠 址 都 不 願 意 被 列 入 的 狀 況 之 下 後 面 有 很 多 工 作 是 絕 對 進 行 不 下 去 的 嘛 對 不 對 次 長 是 我 想 委 員 很 清 楚 的 道 出 我 們 在 進 行 最 終 組 織 廠 址 選 址 的 這 個 面 臨 上 的 問 題 次 長 我 當 然 我 這 個 意 思 不 是 說 你 就 不 用 努 力 就 一 個 政 府 該 負 責 任 政 策 的 角 度 來 說 經 濟 部 當 然 要 努 力 去 尋 找\n\n11\n00:04:16,049 --> 00:04:18,031\n在 提 出 關 於 原 液 的 修 法 的 版 本 裡 面 我 看 到 了 一 個 狀 況\n\n12\n00:04:36,752 --> 00:04:54,742\n我 看 到 好 像 有 部 分 的 委 員 提 出 來 的 版 本 是 想 要 讓 我 們 的 核 電 廠 在 沒 有 執 照 的 狀 況 下 就 能 繼 續 運 轉 這 讓 大 家 會 很 擔 心 在 喪 失 執 照 或 執 照 到 期 狀 況 之 下 還 可 以 讓 它 繼 續 運 轉 我 要 問 台 電\n\n13\n00:05:01,533 --> 00:05:27,933\n沒 有 執 照 就 沒 辦 法 運 轉 一 個 核 電 機 組 有 辦 法 在 執 照 失 效 到 期 種 種 的 狀 況 之 下 沒 有 執 照 的 情 境 下 還 可 以 繼 續 運 轉 嗎 ? 不 行 這 是 法 規 的 問 題 還 是 安 全 的 問 題 ? 有 法 規 的 問 題 也 有 安 全 的 問 題 我 坦 白 說 今 天 嚴 義 與 否 今 天 在 黨 有 各 種 不 同 的 看 法 跟 立 場 這 個 事 情 大 家 尊 重 但 我 卻 看 到 裡 面 有 部 分 的 版 本\n\n14\n00:05:29,309 --> 00:05:47,865\n是 要 萬 核 電 廠 在 沒 有 執 照 就 能 夠 運 轉 喔 今 天 一 台 車 沒 有 駕 照 沒 有 死 照 可 以 上 路 嗎 我 覺 得 這 個 事 情 其 實 已 經 觸 犯 了 很 大 的 安 全 上 的 紅 線 了\n\n15\n00:05:50,492 --> 00:06:11,957\n今 天 我 們 用 什 麼 方 式 來 確 保 核 電 廠 的 安 全 我 們 就 是 在 執 照 的 審 查 上 面 設 下 了 諸 多 嚴 格 的 關 卡 來 確 保 你 要 拿 這 個 執 照 你 就 要 符 合 一 定 的 安 全 上 面 的 要 求 所 以 如 果 今 天 一 個 核 電 廠 可 以 在 沒 有 執 照 或 執 照 喪 失 狀 況 之 下 還 能 夠 運 轉 請 問 確 保 安 全 的 機 制 怎 麼 產 生 諸 位\n\n16\n00:06:20,299 --> 00:06:27,245\n主 委 但 是 現 在 國 民 黨 在 黨 的 修 法 是 要 說 法 規 上 面 我 就 直 接 讓 你 允 許 你 沒 有 執 照 可 以 繼 續 運 轉\n\n17\n00:06:45,497 --> 00:07:06,841\n這 在 安 全 上 面 請 問 你 們 要 怎 麼 確 保 所 以 沒 有 辦 法 來 確 保 安 全 問 題 所 以 這 不 是 修 法 的 問 題 對 不 對 是 安 全 的 問 題 這 是 安 全 的 問 題 沒 有 執 照 的 確 保 就 沒 有 安 全 對 你 來 說 是 這 樣 很 清 楚 對 不 對 是 的 很 清 楚 我 覺 得 這 個 是 言 語 與 否 我 覺 得 大 家 可 以 各 自 討 論 但 如 果 要 去 闖 這 條 紅 線 讓 他 在 沒 有 執 照 就 要 去 運 轉 這 等 於 是 要 犧 牲\n\n18\n00:07:14,056 --> 00:07:14,376\n接 下 來 我 們 請 萬 美\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n29\t590\t請林次長跟陳主委我們請主委跟次長 謝謝\n21857\t43593\t市長跟昨天早其實我想核安的問題跟核廢料的處置的問題我認為這個事情是不分藍綠的我相信沒有哪一個政黨的委員會希望安全亂搞或者是核廢料亂搞\n45592\t69625\t那我這邊其實我是很想順著剛剛國民黨業源支委員問的問題再往下問的剛剛次長說我們現在核廢的處置其實處置跟儲存不一樣啦 處置指的是最終處置事實上昨天我看了一下國發會劉金星主委的講法其實有一個地方看起來是有一點不太精準\n70706\t94238\t其實歐盟並沒有說有儲存它就是綠能其實歐盟的說法是核電要有詳細的負責任的最終處置計畫它才能夠被列入綠色融資這其實還是有一些差別的那我就是現在想問現在我們在談 假設談最終處置剛剛次長說現在核廢料的處置是大問題\n101705\t121056\t問題在哪?我跟委員報告確實我們現在核廢料的一個處理他是需要去尋找適當的最終處置我剛剛提到的那個大問題他是一個很複雜的問題比如說我們最終處置要去做這個相關的調查因為沒有法律的規定都沒有辦法去做調查\n124149\t151475\t其實我們應該更清楚的讓大家知道現在核廢處置最大的問題我今天不管哪一個國家我要怎麼處理核廢料他都要一個地點嘛他都要一個location嘛核廢料不會飄在空中嘛核廢料沒有辦法打到外太空嘛我都要一個地點嘛那這個地點他就需要一個具體的空間嘛所以我們現在遇到最大的問題就是這空間到底在哪裡\n153015\t171803\t這可能不是簡單的技術問題 這就是一個地點在哪裡的問題 所以我想問現在新北市侯市長有說他願意作為最終處置場址嗎沒有這不是他自平東現在有河山周縣長有說他願意成為最終處置場址嗎\n173223\t201110\t沒有現在有哪一個縣市表態說他願意成為最終處置場址目前都沒有這問題是在這裡嘛今天如果沒有一個縣市願意成為最終處置場址請問最終處置場址的選址不管條例怎麼定終究無法前進嘛你可能去做一個地質調查人家就打槍你了吧你說我來做核廢最終處置場址的地質調查他就不讓你進去了\n203708\t228546\t所以今天我覺得這部分經濟部是可以講清楚的我們不是要把這件事情推給地方政府不是不是要推給地方政府是明確的在這個技術尋找長期的過程他就是要一個地點嘛今天只要這個地點沒出來我坦白說你不管這上面計畫怎麼寫那個都是虛的我自己很清楚你可以做很多paperwork\n229892\t254398\t但只要那個地點連潛在廠址候選廠址都不願意被列入的狀況之下後面有很多工作是絕對進行不下去的嘛對不對次長是我想委員很清楚的道出我們在進行最終組織廠址選址的這個面臨上的問題次長我當然我這個意思不是說你就不用努力就一個政府該負責任政策的角度來說經濟部當然要努力去尋找\n256049\t258031\t在提出關於原液的修法的版本裡面我看到了一個狀況\n276752\t294742\t我看到好像有部分的委員提出來的版本是想要讓我們的核電廠在沒有執照的狀況下就能繼續運轉這讓大家會很擔心在喪失執照或執照到期狀況之下還可以讓它繼續運轉我要問台電\n301533\t327933\t沒有執照就沒辦法運轉一個核電機組有辦法在執照失效到期種種的狀況之下沒有執照的情境下還可以繼續運轉嗎?不行這是法規的問題還是安全的問題?有法規的問題也有安全的問題我坦白說今天嚴義與否今天在黨有各種不同的看法跟立場這個事情大家尊重但我卻看到裡面有部分的版本\n329309\t347865\t是要萬核電廠在沒有執照就能夠運轉喔今天一台車沒有駕照沒有死照可以上路嗎我覺得這個事情其實已經觸犯了很大的安全上的紅線了\n350492\t371957\t今天我們用什麼方式來確保核電廠的安全我們就是在執照的審查上面設下了諸多嚴格的關卡來確保你要拿這個執照你就要符合一定的安全上面的要求所以如果今天一個核電廠可以在沒有執照或執照喪失狀況之下還能夠運轉請問確保安全的機制怎麼產生 諸位\n380299\t387245\t主委但是現在國民黨在黨的修法是要說法規上面我就直接讓你允許你沒有執照可以繼續運轉\n405497\t426841\t這在安全上面請問你們要怎麼確保所以沒有辦法來確保安全問題所以這不是修法的問題對不對是安全的問題這是安全的問題沒有執照的確保就沒有安全對你來說是這樣很清楚對不對是的很清楚我覺得這個是言語與否我覺得大家可以各自討論但如果要去闖這條紅線讓他在沒有執照就要去運轉這等於是要犧牲\n434056\t434376\t接下來我們請萬美\n","txt":"請林次長跟陳主委我們請主委跟次長 謝謝\n市長跟昨天早其實我想核安的問題跟核廢料的處置的問題我認為這個事情是不分藍綠的我相信沒有哪一個政黨的委員會希望安全亂搞或者是核廢料亂搞\n那我這邊其實我是很想順著剛剛國民黨業源支委員問的問題再往下問的剛剛次長說我們現在核廢的處置其實處置跟儲存不一樣啦 處置指的是最終處置事實上昨天我看了一下國發會劉金星主委的講法其實有一個地方看起來是有一點不太精準\n其實歐盟並沒有說有儲存它就是綠能其實歐盟的說法是核電要有詳細的負責任的最終處置計畫它才能夠被列入綠色融資這其實還是有一些差別的那我就是現在想問現在我們在談 假設談最終處置剛剛次長說現在核廢料的處置是大問題\n問題在哪?我跟委員報告確實我們現在核廢料的一個處理他是需要去尋找適當的最終處置我剛剛提到的那個大問題他是一個很複雜的問題比如說我們最終處置要去做這個相關的調查因為沒有法律的規定都沒有辦法去做調查\n其實我們應該更清楚的讓大家知道現在核廢處置最大的問題我今天不管哪一個國家我要怎麼處理核廢料他都要一個地點嘛他都要一個location嘛核廢料不會飄在空中嘛核廢料沒有辦法打到外太空嘛我都要一個地點嘛那這個地點他就需要一個具體的空間嘛所以我們現在遇到最大的問題就是這空間到底在哪裡\n這可能不是簡單的技術問題 這就是一個地點在哪裡的問題 所以我想問現在新北市侯市長有說他願意作為最終處置場址嗎沒有這不是他自平東現在有河山周縣長有說他願意成為最終處置場址嗎\n沒有現在有哪一個縣市表態說他願意成為最終處置場址目前都沒有這問題是在這裡嘛今天如果沒有一個縣市願意成為最終處置場址請問最終處置場址的選址不管條例怎麼定終究無法前進嘛你可能去做一個地質調查人家就打槍你了吧你說我來做核廢最終處置場址的地質調查他就不讓你進去了\n所以今天我覺得這部分經濟部是可以講清楚的我們不是要把這件事情推給地方政府不是不是要推給地方政府是明確的在這個技術尋找長期的過程他就是要一個地點嘛今天只要這個地點沒出來我坦白說你不管這上面計畫怎麼寫那個都是虛的我自己很清楚你可以做很多paperwork\n但只要那個地點連潛在廠址候選廠址都不願意被列入的狀況之下後面有很多工作是絕對進行不下去的嘛對不對次長是我想委員很清楚的道出我們在進行最終組織廠址選址的這個面臨上的問題次長我當然我這個意思不是說你就不用努力就一個政府該負責任政策的角度來說經濟部當然要努力去尋找\n在提出關於原液的修法的版本裡面我看到了一個狀況\n我看到好像有部分的委員提出來的版本是想要讓我們的核電廠在沒有執照的狀況下就能繼續運轉這讓大家會很擔心在喪失執照或執照到期狀況之下還可以讓它繼續運轉我要問台電\n沒有執照就沒辦法運轉一個核電機組有辦法在執照失效到期種種的狀況之下沒有執照的情境下還可以繼續運轉嗎?不行這是法規的問題還是安全的問題?有法規的問題也有安全的問題我坦白說今天嚴義與否今天在黨有各種不同的看法跟立場這個事情大家尊重但我卻看到裡面有部分的版本\n是要萬核電廠在沒有執照就能夠運轉喔今天一台車沒有駕照沒有死照可以上路嗎我覺得這個事情其實已經觸犯了很大的安全上的紅線了\n今天我們用什麼方式來確保核電廠的安全我們就是在執照的審查上面設下了諸多嚴格的關卡來確保你要拿這個執照你就要符合一定的安全上面的要求所以如果今天一個核電廠可以在沒有執照或執照喪失狀況之下還能夠運轉請問確保安全的機制怎麼產生 諸位\n主委但是現在國民黨在黨的修法是要說法規上面我就直接讓你允許你沒有執照可以繼續運轉\n這在安全上面請問你們要怎麼確保所以沒有辦法來確保安全問題所以這不是修法的問題對不對是安全的問題這是安全的問題沒有執照的確保就沒有安全對你來說是這樣很清楚對不對是的很清楚我覺得這個是言語與否我覺得大家可以各自討論但如果要去闖這條紅線讓他在沒有執照就要去運轉這等於是要犧牲\n接下來我們請萬美\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.029 --> 00:00.590\n請 林 次 長 跟 陳 主 委 我 們 請 主 委 跟 次 長 謝 謝\n\n00:21.857 --> 00:43.593\n市 長 跟 昨 天 早 其 實 我 想 核 安 的 問 題 跟 核 廢 料 的 處 置 的 問 題 我 認 為 這 個 事 情 是 不 分 藍 綠 的 我 相 信 沒 有 哪 一 個 政 黨 的 委 員 會 希 望 安 全 亂 搞 或 者 是 核 廢 料 亂 搞\n\n00:45.592 --> 01:09.625\n那 我 這 邊 其 實 我 是 很 想 順 著 剛 剛 國 民 黨 業 源 支 委 員 問 的 問 題 再 往 下 問 的 剛 剛 次 長 說 我 們 現 在 核 廢 的 處 置 其 實 處 置 跟 儲 存 不 一 樣 啦 處 置 指 的 是 最 終 處 置 事 實 上 昨 天 我 看 了 一 下 國 發 會 劉 金 星 主 委 的 講 法 其 實 有 一 個 地 方 看 起 來 是 有 一 點 不 太 精 準\n\n01:10.706 --> 01:34.238\n其 實 歐 盟 並 沒 有 說 有 儲 存 它 就 是 綠 能 其 實 歐 盟 的 說 法 是 核 電 要 有 詳 細 的 負 責 任 的 最 終 處 置 計 畫 它 才 能 夠 被 列 入 綠 色 融 資 這 其 實 還 是 有 一 些 差 別 的 那 我 就 是 現 在 想 問 現 在 我 們 在 談 假 設 談 最 終 處 置 剛 剛 次 長 說 現 在 核 廢 料 的 處 置 是 大 問 題\n\n01:41.705 --> 02:01.056\n問 題 在 哪 ? 我 跟 委 員 報 告 確 實 我 們 現 在 核 廢 料 的 一 個 處 理 他 是 需 要 去 尋 找 適 當 的 最 終 處 置 我 剛 剛 提 到 的 那 個 大 問 題 他 是 一 個 很 複 雜 的 問 題 比 如 說 我 們 最 終 處 置 要 去 做 這 個 相 關 的 調 查 因 為 沒 有 法 律 的 規 定 都 沒 有 辦 法 去 做 調 查\n\n02:04.149 --> 02:31.475\n其 實 我 們 應 該 更 清 楚 的 讓 大 家 知 道 現 在 核 廢 處 置 最 大 的 問 題 我 今 天 不 管 哪 一 個 國 家 我 要 怎 麼 處 理 核 廢 料 他 都 要 一 個 地 點 嘛 他 都 要 一 個 l o c a t i o n 嘛 核 廢 料 不 會 飄 在 空 中 嘛 核 廢 料 沒 有 辦 法 打 到 外 太 空 嘛 我 都 要 一 個 地 點 嘛 那 這 個 地 點 他 就 需 要 一 個 具 體 的 空 間 嘛 所 以 我 們 現 在 遇 到 最 大 的 問 題 就 是 這 空 間 到 底 在 哪 裡\n\n02:33.015 --> 02:51.803\n這 可 能 不 是 簡 單 的 技 術 問 題 這 就 是 一 個 地 點 在 哪 裡 的 問 題 所 以 我 想 問 現 在 新 北 市 侯 市 長 有 說 他 願 意 作 為 最 終 處 置 場 址 嗎 沒 有 這 不 是 他 自 平 東 現 在 有 河 山 周 縣 長 有 說 他 願 意 成 為 最 終 處 置 場 址 嗎\n\n02:53.223 --> 03:21.110\n沒 有 現 在 有 哪 一 個 縣 市 表 態 說 他 願 意 成 為 最 終 處 置 場 址 目 前 都 沒 有 這 問 題 是 在 這 裡 嘛 今 天 如 果 沒 有 一 個 縣 市 願 意 成 為 最 終 處 置 場 址 請 問 最 終 處 置 場 址 的 選 址 不 管 條 例 怎 麼 定 終 究 無 法 前 進 嘛 你 可 能 去 做 一 個 地 質 調 查 人 家 就 打 槍 你 了 吧 你 說 我 來 做 核 廢 最 終 處 置 場 址 的 地 質 調 查 他 就 不 讓 你 進 去 了\n\n03:23.708 --> 03:48.546\n所 以 今 天 我 覺 得 這 部 分 經 濟 部 是 可 以 講 清 楚 的 我 們 不 是 要 把 這 件 事 情 推 給 地 方 政 府 不 是 不 是 要 推 給 地 方 政 府 是 明 確 的 在 這 個 技 術 尋 找 長 期 的 過 程 他 就 是 要 一 個 地 點 嘛 今 天 只 要 這 個 地 點 沒 出 來 我 坦 白 說 你 不 管 這 上 面 計 畫 怎 麼 寫 那 個 都 是 虛 的 我 自 己 很 清 楚 你 可 以 做 很 多 p a p e r w o r k\n\n03:49.892 --> 04:14.398\n但 只 要 那 個 地 點 連 潛 在 廠 址 候 選 廠 址 都 不 願 意 被 列 入 的 狀 況 之 下 後 面 有 很 多 工 作 是 絕 對 進 行 不 下 去 的 嘛 對 不 對 次 長 是 我 想 委 員 很 清 楚 的 道 出 我 們 在 進 行 最 終 組 織 廠 址 選 址 的 這 個 面 臨 上 的 問 題 次 長 我 當 然 我 這 個 意 思 不 是 說 你 就 不 用 努 力 就 一 個 政 府 該 負 責 任 政 策 的 角 度 來 說 經 濟 部 當 然 要 努 力 去 尋 找\n\n04:16.049 --> 04:18.031\n在 提 出 關 於 原 液 的 修 法 的 版 本 裡 面 我 看 到 了 一 個 狀 況\n\n04:36.752 --> 04:54.742\n我 看 到 好 像 有 部 分 的 委 員 提 出 來 的 版 本 是 想 要 讓 我 們 的 核 電 廠 在 沒 有 執 照 的 狀 況 下 就 能 繼 續 運 轉 這 讓 大 家 會 很 擔 心 在 喪 失 執 照 或 執 照 到 期 狀 況 之 下 還 可 以 讓 它 繼 續 運 轉 我 要 問 台 電\n\n05:01.533 --> 05:27.933\n沒 有 執 照 就 沒 辦 法 運 轉 一 個 核 電 機 組 有 辦 法 在 執 照 失 效 到 期 種 種 的 狀 況 之 下 沒 有 執 照 的 情 境 下 還 可 以 繼 續 運 轉 嗎 ? 不 行 這 是 法 規 的 問 題 還 是 安 全 的 問 題 ? 有 法 規 的 問 題 也 有 安 全 的 問 題 我 坦 白 說 今 天 嚴 義 與 否 今 天 在 黨 有 各 種 不 同 的 看 法 跟 立 場 這 個 事 情 大 家 尊 重 但 我 卻 看 到 裡 面 有 部 分 的 版 本\n\n05:29.309 --> 05:47.865\n是 要 萬 核 電 廠 在 沒 有 執 照 就 能 夠 運 轉 喔 今 天 一 台 車 沒 有 駕 照 沒 有 死 照 可 以 上 路 嗎 我 覺 得 這 個 事 情 其 實 已 經 觸 犯 了 很 大 的 安 全 上 的 紅 線 了\n\n05:50.492 --> 06:11.957\n今 天 我 們 用 什 麼 方 式 來 確 保 核 電 廠 的 安 全 我 們 就 是 在 執 照 的 審 查 上 面 設 下 了 諸 多 嚴 格 的 關 卡 來 確 保 你 要 拿 這 個 執 照 你 就 要 符 合 一 定 的 安 全 上 面 的 要 求 所 以 如 果 今 天 一 個 核 電 廠 可 以 在 沒 有 執 照 或 執 照 喪 失 狀 況 之 下 還 能 夠 運 轉 請 問 確 保 安 全 的 機 制 怎 麼 產 生 諸 位\n\n06:20.299 --> 06:27.245\n主 委 但 是 現 在 國 民 黨 在 黨 的 修 法 是 要 說 法 規 上 面 我 就 直 接 讓 你 允 許 你 沒 有 執 照 可 以 繼 續 運 轉\n\n06:45.497 --> 07:06.841\n這 在 安 全 上 面 請 問 你 們 要 怎 麼 確 保 所 以 沒 有 辦 法 來 確 保 安 全 問 題 所 以 這 不 是 修 法 的 問 題 對 不 對 是 安 全 的 問 題 這 是 安 全 的 問 題 沒 有 執 照 的 確 保 就 沒 有 安 全 對 你 來 說 是 這 樣 很 清 楚 對 不 對 是 的 很 清 楚 我 覺 得 這 個 是 言 語 與 否 我 覺 得 大 家 可 以 各 自 討 論 但 如 果 要 去 闖 這 條 紅 線 讓 他 在 沒 有 執 照 就 要 去 運 轉 這 等 於 是 要 犧 牲\n\n07:14.056 --> 07:14.376\n接 下 來 我 們 請 萬 美\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.029,"end":0.59,"text":"請林次長跟陳主委我們請主委跟次長 謝謝"},{"start":21.857,"end":43.593,"text":"市長跟昨天早其實我想核安的問題跟核廢料的處置的問題我認為這個事情是不分藍綠的我相信沒有哪一個政黨的委員會希望安全亂搞或者是核廢料亂搞"},{"start":45.592,"end":69.625,"text":"那我這邊其實我是很想順著剛剛國民黨業源支委員問的問題再往下問的剛剛次長說我們現在核廢的處置其實處置跟儲存不一樣啦 處置指的是最終處置事實上昨天我看了一下國發會劉金星主委的講法其實有一個地方看起來是有一點不太精準"},{"start":70.706,"end":94.238,"text":"其實歐盟並沒有說有儲存它就是綠能其實歐盟的說法是核電要有詳細的負責任的最終處置計畫它才能夠被列入綠色融資這其實還是有一些差別的那我就是現在想問現在我們在談 假設談最終處置剛剛次長說現在核廢料的處置是大問題"},{"start":101.705,"end":121.056,"text":"問題在哪?我跟委員報告確實我們現在核廢料的一個處理他是需要去尋找適當的最終處置我剛剛提到的那個大問題他是一個很複雜的問題比如說我們最終處置要去做這個相關的調查因為沒有法律的規定都沒有辦法去做調查"},{"start":124.149,"end":151.475,"text":"其實我們應該更清楚的讓大家知道現在核廢處置最大的問題我今天不管哪一個國家我要怎麼處理核廢料他都要一個地點嘛他都要一個location嘛核廢料不會飄在空中嘛核廢料沒有辦法打到外太空嘛我都要一個地點嘛那這個地點他就需要一個具體的空間嘛所以我們現在遇到最大的問題就是這空間到底在哪裡"},{"start":153.015,"end":171.803,"text":"這可能不是簡單的技術問題 這就是一個地點在哪裡的問題 所以我想問現在新北市侯市長有說他願意作為最終處置場址嗎沒有這不是他自平東現在有河山周縣長有說他願意成為最終處置場址嗎"},{"start":173.223,"end":201.11,"text":"沒有現在有哪一個縣市表態說他願意成為最終處置場址目前都沒有這問題是在這裡嘛今天如果沒有一個縣市願意成為最終處置場址請問最終處置場址的選址不管條例怎麼定終究無法前進嘛你可能去做一個地質調查人家就打槍你了吧你說我來做核廢最終處置場址的地質調查他就不讓你進去了"},{"start":203.708,"end":228.546,"text":"所以今天我覺得這部分經濟部是可以講清楚的我們不是要把這件事情推給地方政府不是不是要推給地方政府是明確的在這個技術尋找長期的過程他就是要一個地點嘛今天只要這個地點沒出來我坦白說你不管這上面計畫怎麼寫那個都是虛的我自己很清楚你可以做很多paperwork"},{"start":229.892,"end":254.398,"text":"但只要那個地點連潛在廠址候選廠址都不願意被列入的狀況之下後面有很多工作是絕對進行不下去的嘛對不對次長是我想委員很清楚的道出我們在進行最終組織廠址選址的這個面臨上的問題次長我當然我這個意思不是說你就不用努力就一個政府該負責任政策的角度來說經濟部當然要努力去尋找"},{"start":256.049,"end":258.031,"text":"在提出關於原液的修法的版本裡面我看到了一個狀況"},{"start":276.752,"end":294.742,"text":"我看到好像有部分的委員提出來的版本是想要讓我們的核電廠在沒有執照的狀況下就能繼續運轉這讓大家會很擔心在喪失執照或執照到期狀況之下還可以讓它繼續運轉我要問台電"},{"start":301.533,"end":327.933,"text":"沒有執照就沒辦法運轉一個核電機組有辦法在執照失效到期種種的狀況之下沒有執照的情境下還可以繼續運轉嗎?不行這是法規的問題還是安全的問題?有法規的問題也有安全的問題我坦白說今天嚴義與否今天在黨有各種不同的看法跟立場這個事情大家尊重但我卻看到裡面有部分的版本"},{"start":329.309,"end":347.865,"text":"是要萬核電廠在沒有執照就能夠運轉喔今天一台車沒有駕照沒有死照可以上路嗎我覺得這個事情其實已經觸犯了很大的安全上的紅線了"},{"start":350.492,"end":371.957,"text":"今天我們用什麼方式來確保核電廠的安全我們就是在執照的審查上面設下了諸多嚴格的關卡來確保你要拿這個執照你就要符合一定的安全上面的要求所以如果今天一個核電廠可以在沒有執照或執照喪失狀況之下還能夠運轉請問確保安全的機制怎麼產生 諸位"},{"start":380.299,"end":387.245,"text":"主委但是現在國民黨在黨的修法是要說法規上面我就直接讓你允許你沒有執照可以繼續運轉"},{"start":405.497,"end":426.841,"text":"這在安全上面請問你們要怎麼確保所以沒有辦法來確保安全問題所以這不是修法的問題對不對是安全的問題這是安全的問題沒有執照的確保就沒有安全對你來說是這樣很清楚對不對是的很清楚我覺得這個是言語與否我覺得大家可以各自討論但如果要去闖這條紅線讓他在沒有執照就要去運轉這等於是要犧牲"},{"start":434.056,"end":434.376,"text":"接下來我們請萬美"}]}}}}