{"id":153202,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153202","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e133130260081ec67420dd0e137800dc086ea333bc5d453e1b19571fb96bad2f8966d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"10:22:19 - 10:32:05","影片長度":"00:09:46","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":586,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T10:32:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T10:22:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":411,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（10時22分）謝謝召委。請經濟部林次長、台電副總以及主委一起上來好了。"],["主席：好，謝謝。麻煩三位。"],["萬委員美玲：首先，本席想請教一下次長，許副總也一起準備。從4月15日台電承認機組跳脫，供電吃緊，備載容量只剩下3%開始，桃園就成為停電、斷電的重災區，從4月16日到5月12日，根據桃園市政府的統計，停電已經超過28次，前前後後將近9萬5,000戶受到停電的影響，如果往前、往後算，本席覺得影響的戶數其實更多。","當然，上個禮拜六也很高興看到卓榮泰院長到桃園視察，他剛上任就到桃園，可見他也知道這個問題非常嚴重。不過比較美中不足的，就是院長到了桃園，既沒有通知桃園市政府，也沒有通知本席，我們都沒有辦法在第一時間知道問題所在，或者提供我們知道的訊息給他，我們希望以後台電或者經濟部能夠通知一下。","本席想請教一下次長和副總，卓榮泰院長說電路是國安層次的問題，安全穩定的供電是政府對人民和全世界的承諾，這是對的嗎？"],["林次長全能：這是我們要做到的任務。"],["萬委員美玲：所以對桃園來說，這就是嚴重跳票嘛！這就是承認桃園的供電有問題。跳電、停電這麼頻繁，我們更要知道問題點是什麼，我們要知道真正的原因是什麼，不要老是告訴我們，不是鳥就是蛇，不是蛇就是螞蟻，不是螞蟻就是樹木，本席覺得這真的亂七八糟，最後還要我們體恤桃園台電的從業人員。","本席告訴你啦！台電在桃園的所有從業人員真的非常優秀、非常專業，但是相關的能源政策或是電網的脆弱，這不是他們能夠負責任的，卻要他們在第一線承擔，他們的壓力真的非常大，所以本席想請教一下次長，桃園停電到底是什麼原因？"],["林次長全能：地區停電大部分都是配電的電網所造成的問題，大概一半以上是外力，一半以上是設備的老舊問題。"],["萬委員美玲：次長，台電的人也在這裡，我們陸陸續續以各種不同的預算科目，給了台電高達4,000億元，今天本席聽你答詢的時候還提到，後面好像還有1,000億元還是2,000億元要繼續做，4,000億元給你們了，但整個電網的狀況還是這麼脆弱。當然，後續還是要持續加強，該撥補的預算當然還是要給，但是呢？本席覺得最重要的，就是你們要知道問題出在哪裡，才有辦法對症下藥嘛！","所以呢？本席在這邊要求，次長，我們希望經濟部能夠立即研議，將來這種大規模的停電狀況，不是台電說了算，你們隨便塞給我們一個理由，我們就必須接受這樣的理由。我們希望能夠由外部專家學者組成停跳電原因的調查委員會，讓更多公正人士進來，針對國內大規模跳電、停電進行事故調查並公布原因，可以在一個月內研議嗎？做得到嗎？"],["林次長全能：相關的區域跳電，我們都會檢討原因，我們願意提供相關資料給委員。"],["萬委員美玲：次長，本席說得很清楚，請你聽明白。本席說的是，不管哪一個區域，只要是大規模停電，都不是由經濟部或是台電說了算，由你們告訴我們是什麼原因，因為你們公布的內容，現在就是沒有公信力嘛！所以本席希望在一個月之內研議，看要怎麼成立跳電或者停電的原因調查委員會，讓外部的專家學者一起進來調查，這部分可以研議嗎？"],["林次長全能：我們很願意邀請外部專家，台電已經朝這方面進行中。"],["萬委員美玲：好。一個月內提出這份報告，好嗎？"],["林次長全能：我們會把它整理出來，提供給委員。"],["萬委員美玲：好。新上任的經濟部郭部長也說到，賴總統有指示他要跨部會檢討能源政策，這件事是真的嗎？"],["林次長全能：總統很清楚的……"],["萬委員美玲：這是不是真的？"],["林次長全能：能源的部分本來就是跨部會處理。"],["萬委員美玲：次長，本席的問題是，郭部長說賴總統指示他要跨部會檢討能源政策，這一點你知道嗎？"],["林次長全能：總統怎麼和部長說的，我不是很清楚，但是在部裡面，就是以這樣的方式處理。"],["萬委員美玲：好，所以你不清楚。這麼大的事情，總統交代部長，而次長卻不清楚。本席覺得你真的要好好檢討一下，到底經濟部有什麼樣的問題，好不好？"],["林次長全能：好，我個人會檢討。"],["萬委員美玲：如果能源政策沒有任何錯誤，為什麼要通盤檢討？顯然就是有問題嘛！所以次長，目前的能源政策……"],["林次長全能：我想這不是錯誤的問題……"],["萬委員美玲：對不起，本席還沒有讓你回答。"],["林次長全能：對不起，好。"],["萬委員美玲：請你答詢時要有禮貌一點。"],["林次長全能：是，謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：沒有聽清楚問題，你怎麼回答？這就是你們的態度嗎？要先知道問題嘛！本席想請教一下，我們整個能源政策的問題，到底是因為非核家園導致？還是因為再生能源的占比拉不起來？或是因為2050淨零碳排燃煤的占比過高？是哪一種？"],["林次長全能：事實上能源的問題有多元面向，我們都在積極檢討中，每一個都是我們可能要去面對的問題。"],["萬委員美玲：好。次長，本席再請教你，蔡政府曾經說過，2025年要達成能源轉型的發電占比，再生能源要達到20%，但我們現在可以看到，7年下來，再生能源大概只提升4.9%，這一點很清楚，你們也承認了，就是能源轉型跳票，再生能源成長的速度非常慢，而且您也知道太陽能和風電都具有不穩定性。所以本席想討論的是，核三廠1號機組的運轉執照就要在今年7月到期，2號機組也要在明年5月屆期，這意味核能178.02億度電明年就全部歸零。請教一下，這些歸零的電，我們要從哪裡補？"],["林次長全能：我們有做很完整的供電提供，事實上會從幾個燃氣電廠和再生能源的太陽光電、離岸風力補足。"],["萬委員美玲：好。去年核二廠除役的時候，當時王美花部長說，他們要用大潭8號機組和通霄小型機補足，但是我們看到在台電的官網中，大潭8號機仍然在試運轉測試中，根本沒有辦法立即補上。而且用燃氣發電的缺點，不管是發電成本貴，或者是運送、接收都需要特殊的設備，還有一些風險，同時甲烷也可能造成全球暖化等等，這些問題都在。","所以次長，本席再請教您，如果現在供電不足，或者供電不穩定，影響的不只是民生用電，還包含工業用電，請問您知道我們的護國神山台積電，一年用電量大概是多少嗎？"],["林次長全能：我沒有很完整的資訊，不過應該會超過百億度。"],["萬委員美玲：好。本席告訴您，台積電2022年的用電量高達210.8億度，這是什麼樣的概念？就是比核三廠整年的發電量178億度還要多。我們都知道台積電今年可能會繼續在臺灣興建三座晶圓廠，還有兩座先進的封裝場，到時候的用電量恐怕會再創新高。","我們看到賴清德總統說要打造AI之島，但是次長，AI也需要用電。紐約客的報導指出，OpenAI的ChatGPT每一天消耗的電力超過50萬度，輝達的網站數據也指出，一座有10萬顆H100晶片的AI資訊資料中心，它需要100兆瓦的電，這都是非常大量的。請問次長，經濟部有預估我們發展AI需要耗多少電嗎？"],["林次長全能：我們都有同步在做掌握和預估。您剛才提供的資料，像OpenAI的ChatGPT，它做的是大型的語言訓練，目前不會在臺灣做大型的語言訓練，我們會從應用端的部分微調，這是目前臺灣關於AI方面的發展。"],["萬委員美玲：好。本席很簡單的請教你，依您的看法和專業，目前臺灣的供電量是否可以穩定的撐起賴清德總統所說的AI之島？"],["林次長全能：我們很有信心可以供應相關的、必要的電力。"],["萬委員美玲：你覺得非常有信心，一定能達成？"],["林次長全能：是，我們有信心。"],["萬委員美玲：你要據實以答，要務實的回答。"],["林次長全能：我很務實，我們有信心。"],["萬委員美玲：多久可以達成？是您個人有信心，還是經濟部有信心？"],["林次長全能：現在每年的供電就是按照我們的規劃在落實當中。"],["萬委員美玲：所以是您個人有信心，還是經濟部有計畫？"],["林次長全能：我相信我們同仁都有信心能夠達成。"],["萬委員美玲：好。最後，次長，本席要告訴您，光有信心是不夠的。有信心當然最好，但還是不夠，本席覺得要從務實面再去看待現在臺灣整體的能源政策、缺電的問題，如果不面對問題，尤其像您今天答詢的態度，不知道問題、不面對問題、不覺得問題是問題，這些事情永遠沒辦法解決，謝謝。"],["林次長全能：我不是這樣的態度，我們有信心處理，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好。本席在此宣布，第10位林宜瑾委員質詢完畢之後，我們就休息5分鐘。","接下來請郭昱晴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪申翰","陳秀寳","萬美玲","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","張嘉郡","陳培瑜","張智倫","林倩綺","羅智強","吳春城","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠\n延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00004"}},"transcript":{"id":"153202","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153202","tool":"pyannote","id":"153202-pyannote"},"job_id":"0bJ2tpZGYOKqOWId","queued_at":"2024-05-30 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謝謝沒有聽清楚問題怎麼回答這就是你們的態度嗎問題要先知道嘛所以我想請教一下我們整個能源政策的問題到底是因為非核家園導致的還是因為再生能源占比拉不起來還是因為2050這個淨零碳排燃煤的這個占比過高是哪一種能源的問題事實上有多元面向我們都在積極的檢討中那我想每一個都是我們可能要去面對的問題\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 316.582, \"end\": 316.782, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 316.782, \"end\": 317.122, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 317.122, \"end\": 317.263, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 317.263, \"end\": 317.303, \"score\": 0.471}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 317.303, \"end\": 317.403, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 317.403, \"end\": 317.483, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 317.483, \"end\": 317.743, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"禮\"}, {\"word\": \"貌\", \"start\": 317.743, \"end\": 317.923, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 317.923, \"end\": 318.123, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"喔\", \"start\": 318.123, \"end\": 318.623, \"score\": 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始 期 我 們 桃 園 就 成 為 一 個 停 電 斷 電 的 一 個 重 災 區 那 從 這 個 4 月 1 6 到 5 月 1 2 根 據 桃 園 市 政 府 他 的 統 計 停 電 已 經 超 過 2 8 次 了 前 前 後 後 高 達 將 近 9 萬 5 千 戶 受 到 這 個 停 電 的 影 響\n\n3\n00:00:51,405 --> 00:01:08,442\n那 如 果 要 再 往 前 往 後 再 算 我 覺 得 那 個 影 響 互 助 其 實 是 更 多 的 那 大 概 上 個 禮 拜 六 其 實 也 很 高 興 看 到 我 們 這 個 卓 榮 泰 院 長 到 桃 園 來 視 察 那 他 剛 上 任 就 到 桃 園 來 可 見 他 也 知 道 這 個 問 題 非 常 嚴 重 不 過 比 較 美 中 不 足 的 是\n\n4\n00:01:09,842 --> 00:01:34,109\n院 長 到 桃 園 來 既 沒 有 通 知 桃 園 市 政 府 也 沒 有 通 知 本 席 我 們 都 沒 有 辦 法 在 第 一 時 間 來 知 道 問 題 的 所 在 或 者 是 提 供 他 我 們 所 知 道 的 訊 息 我 們 希 望 這 個 部 分 以 後 是 不 是 臺 電 或 者 是 經 濟 部 這 裡 能 夠 通 知 一 下 我 想 請 教 一 下 次 長 跟 副 總 總 統 和 院 長 他 說 電 路 是 國 安 層 次 的 問 題 安 全 穩 定 的 供 電 是 政 府 對 人 民 跟 全 世 界 的 承 諾 這 是 對 的 嗎\n\n5\n00:01:35,851 --> 00:01:45,275\n我 想 這 是 我 們 要 做 到 的 任 務 好 那 所 以 嘛 所 以 你 就 是 對 桃 園 來 講 喔 對 桃 園 來 講 這 嚴 重 的 跳 票 嘛 所 以 這 就 是 承 認 了 桃 園 的 供 電 其 實 有 相 當 的 問 題 喔 所 以 呢 我 想 跳 電 停 電 一 直 這 麼 頻 繁 我 們 更 要 知 道 問 題 點 是 什 麼 我 們 要 知 道 真 正 的 原 因 是 什 麼 嘛 不 要 老 是 告 訴 我 們 啊 不 是 鳥 就 是 蛇 不 是 蛇 就 是 螞 蟻 不 是 螞 蟻 又 是 樹 木 我 覺 得 這 是 亂 七 八 糟\n\n6\n00:02:01,682 --> 00:02:28,264\n最 後 呢 還 要 我 們 去 體 恤 桃 園 臺 電 的 這 些 從 業 人 員 本 席 告 訴 你 啊 我 們 臺 電 在 桃 園 所 有 從 政 人 員 真 的 非 常 優 秀 非 常 的 專 業 但 是 如 果 相 關 的 能 源 政 策 或 是 電 網 的 脆 弱 不 是 他 們 能 夠 去 負 這 個 責 任 的 我 覺 得 今 天 要 他 們 在 第 一 線 去 承 擔 我 覺 得 壓 力 真 的 是 非 常 的 大 所 以 我 想 請 教 一 下 這 個 次 長 那 現 在 桃 園 停 電 到 底 是 什 麼 原 因\n\n7\n00:02:29,065 --> 00:02:29,405\n市 長 , 我 想 過 去\n\n8\n00:02:45,636 --> 00:02:56,767\n臺 電 在 這 裏 我 們 陸 陸 續 續 在 各 種 不 同 的 預 算 給 臺 電 已 經 高 達 了 4 千 億 今 天 本 席 聽 到 你 在 答 詢 的 時 候 還 提 到 說 後 面 好 像 還 有 一 個 1 千 億 還 是 2 千 億 要 繼 續 再 來 做 4 千 億 也 都 給 了 你 了 我 們 看 到 我 們 整 個 電 網 的 狀 況 還 是 這 麼 的 脆 弱 我 想 當 然 我 們 後 續 還 是 要 持 續 的 去 加 強\n\n9\n00:03:07,977 --> 00:03:20,775\n該 撥 補 的 預 算 我 們 當 然 還 是 要 給 但 是 呢 我 覺 得 最 重 要 的 是 你 要 知 道 問 題 出 在 哪 裡 你 才 有 辦 法 對 症 下 藥 嗎 所 以 呢 我 本 期 在 這 邊 要 求 喔 次 長 我 想 我 們 希 望 經 濟 部 能 夠 立 即 來 研 議 喔 我 們 將 來 喔 大 規 模 這 種 停 電 的 這 個 狀 況 喔\n\n10\n00:03:23,539 --> 00:03:24,680\n我 們 都 會 把 原 因 檢 討 出 來 那 我 們 願 意 提 供 這 相 關 的 資 料 給\n\n11\n00:03:52,186 --> 00:04:10,185\n市 長 本 席 講 的 很 清 楚 請 你 聽 明 白 一 點 我 講 的 是 說 你 不 管 是 某 一 個 區 域 某 一 個 區 域 只 要 不 管 在 哪 個 區 域 大 規 模 的 停 電 都 不 是 說 經 濟 部 次 台 電 說 了 算 說 這 是 什 麼 原 因 因 為 你 公 佈 的 現 在 就 是 沒 有 公 信 力 嘛 所 以 本 席 希 望 能 不 能 研 議 在 一 個 月 之 內 我 們 看 看 怎 麼 樣 成 立 這 個 跳 電 或 者 停 電 的 這 個 原 因 調 查 委 員 會 由 外 部 的 專 家 學 者 一 起 進 來\n\n12\n00:04:15,370 --> 00:04:15,470\n市 長 ﹖ 市 長\n\n13\n00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:48,933\n本 期 的 問 題 是 說 我 們 的 郭 部 長 有 說 賴 總 統 有 指 示 他 要 做 這 個 跨 部 會 檢 討 能 源 政 策 這 點 你 知 道 嗎 ?\n\n14\n00:04:50,951 --> 00:05:15,522\n我 想 總 統 怎 麼 跟 部 長 講 的 我 不 是 很 清 楚 但 是 在 部 裡 面 就 是 展 望 這 麼 大 的 事 情 總 統 交 代 給 部 長 而 次 長 卻 不 清 楚 喔 那 我 覺 得 你 真 的 要 好 好 去 檢 討 一 下 我 會 檢 討 我 個 人 會 檢 討 好 不 好 那 來 那 所 以 能 源 政 策 如 果 沒 有 任 何 的 錯 誤 喔 那 為 什 麼 要 通 盤 去 檢 討 顯 示 就 是 有 問 題 嗎 所 以 次 長 我 想 目 前 的 能 源 政 策 對 不 起 喔 我 還 沒 有 要 讓 你 答\n\n15\n00:05:16,582 --> 00:05:42,199\n請 您 要 這 個 答 案 需 要 有 禮 貌 一 點 喔 是 謝 謝 沒 有 聽 清 楚 問 題 怎 麼 回 答 這 就 是 你 們 的 態 度 嗎 問 題 要 先 知 道 嘛 所 以 我 想 請 教 一 下 我 們 整 個 能 源 政 策 的 問 題 到 底 是 因 為 非 核 家 園 導 致 的 還 是 因 為 再 生 能 源 占 比 拉 不 起 來 還 是 因 為 2 0 5 0 這 個 淨 零 碳 排 燃 煤 的 這 個 占 比 過 高 是 哪 一 種 能 源 的 問 題 事 實 上 有 多 元 面 向 我 們 都 在 積 極 的 檢 討 中 那 我 想 每 一 個 都 是 我 們 可 能 要 去 面 對 的 問 題\n\n16\n00:05:45,270 --> 00:06:05,549\n市 長 , 我 想 在 蔡 政 府 的 時 候 能 源 政 策 曾 經 說 過 要 在 2 0 2 5 年 達 成 能 源 轉 型 的 發 電 佔 比 再 生 能 源 要 達 到 2 0 % 但 我 們 現 在 可 以 看 到 7 年 下 來 我 們 的 再 生 能 源 的 部 分 大 概 只 有 提 升 了 4 . 9 % 很 清 楚 的 也 承 認 了 就 是 能 源 轉 型 的 一 個 跳 票\n\n17\n00:06:06,630 --> 00:06:26,440\n那 麼 再 生 能 源 這 個 成 長 速 度 非 常 的 慢 而 且 我 想 您 也 一 定 知 道 太 陽 能 跟 風 電 都 具 有 不 穩 定 性 所 以 本 期 來 討 論 這 個 核 三 廠 一 號 機 組 的 運 轉 執 照 就 要 在 今 年 的 七 月 到 期 二 號 機 組 也 要 在 明 年 五 月 屆 期 那 這 個 意 味 著 就 是 核 能 在 2 0 2 3 年 1 7 8 . 0 2 億 度 電 在 這 個 明 年 就 全 部 歸 零 請 教 一 下 這 一 些 已 經 歸 零 的 電 我 們 要 從 哪 裡 去 補\n\n18\n00:06:34,504 --> 00:06:42,167\n我 們 有 做 很 完 整 的 一 個 供 電 的 一 個 提 供 那 事 實 上 會 從 這 個 幾 個 燃 氣 電 廠 跟 再 生 能 源 太 陽 光 電 跟 離 岸 風 力 去 年 的 核 二 廠 廚 藝 的 時 候 當 時 的 黃 美 化 部 長 說 他 要 用 大 潭 八 號 機 組 跟 通 宵 小 型 機 來 補 但 是 我 們 看 到 台 電 的 官 網 當 中 大 潭 八 號 機 人 還 在 這 個 試 運 轉 測 試 中\n\n19\n00:06:56,613 --> 00:06:56,753\n市 長 再 請 教 您\n\n20\n00:07:15,196 --> 00:07:26,737\n現 在 如 果 供 電 不 足 或 者 供 電 不 穩 定 影 響 的 我 們 知 道 不 是 只 有 民 生 用 電 還 包 含 工 業 用 電 請 問 您 知 道 一 下 我 們 的 護 國 神 山 台 積 電 一 年 的 用 電 量 大 概 是 多 少 嗎 ?\n\n21\n00:07:27,891 --> 00:07:31,793\n我 沒 有 很 完 整 的 資 訊 不 過 應 該 會 超 過 百 億 度 本 席 告 訴 您 台 積 電 在 2 0 2 2 年 整 年 的 用 電 量 高 達 2 1 0 . 8 億 度 這 是 什 麼 樣 的 概 念 就 是 比 整 個 核 三 廠 目 前 整 年 的 發 電 量 1 7 8 億 度 還 要 多 所 以 我 想\n\n22\n00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:55,231\n我 們 都 知 道 台 積 電 可 能 會 繼 續 在 今 年 在 台 灣 新 建 三 座 晶 圓 廠 還 有 兩 座 先 進 的 封 裝 廠 到 時 候 整 個 用 電 量 恐 怕 會 再 創 新 高 那 我 們 看 到 賴 慶 德 總 統 說 要 打 到 A I 之 倒 但 是 次 長 這 個 A I 也 需 要 用 電\n\n23\n00:08:05,044 --> 00:08:29,224\n不 管 是 我 們 看 到 紐 約 客 的 報 導 指 出 在 這 個 O p e n A I 的 C H A P G P T 每 一 天 消 耗 的 電 力 超 過 5 0 萬 度 那 麼 輝 達 的 網 站 自 己 也 指 出 一 座 有 1 0 萬 顆 H 1 0 0 晶 片 的 A I 資 料 中 心 它 需 要 的 是 1 0 0 兆 網 的 一 個 電 這 都 非 常 大 量 的 請 問 次 長 經 濟 部 我 們 有 預 估 我 們 發 展 A I 需 要 耗 多 少 的 電\n\n24\n00:08:30,427 --> 00:08:55,267\n我 跟 委 員 報 告 我 們 都 在 做 這 個 同 步 的 一 個 掌 握 跟 預 估 那 您 剛 剛 提 供 的 資 料 像 O P E N 這 個 C H A P G T 它 做 的 部 分 是 那 種 大 型 的 語 言 訓 練 目 前 不 會 在 台 灣 做 大 型 的 語 言 訓 練 那 我 們 會 從 這 個 應 用 端 的 部 分 來 做 微 調 我 想 這 個 是 目 前 台 灣 在 這 個 A I 的 一 個 發 展 中 那 本 席 就 很 簡 單 請 教 您 一 下 那 如 果 因 您 的 看 法 跟 您 的 專 業 目 前 台 灣 的 供 電 量 是 否 可 以 穩 定 的 撐 起 賴 清 德 總 統 所 說 的 A I 之 道\n\n25\n00:08:57,248 --> 00:09:16,773\n我 們 很 有 信 心 我 們 可 以 來 供 應 你 覺 得 非 常 有 信 心 一 定 能 達 成 ? 是 我 們 有 信 心 你 要 據 時 以 達 要 務 實 的 來 達 欸 我 很 務 實 我 們 有 信 心 我 們 有 信 心 多 久 可 以 達 ? 是 您 個 人 有 信 心 還 是 整 體 經 濟 部 大 家 有 信 心 ? 我 們 現 在 每 年 的 供 電 就 按 照 我 們 的 規 劃 在 落 實 當 中 所 以 這 是 您 個 人 有 信 心 還 是 整 個 經 濟 部 有 計 劃 的 ?\n\n26\n00:09:19,008 --> 00:09:38,600\n我 相 信 我 們 同 仁 都 有 信 心 能 夠 來 達 成 最 後 部 長 我 跟 您 提 光 有 信 心 是 不 夠 的 有 信 心 當 然 最 好 光 有 信 心 是 不 夠 的 我 就 要 從 務 實 面 再 去 看 待 我 們 在 台 灣 現 在 的 整 個 能 源 政 策 整 個 缺 電 的 問 題 如 果 不 面 對 問 題 尤 其 像 您 今 天 答 詢 的 態 度 不 知 道 問 題 不 面 對 問 題 不 覺 得 問 題 是 問 題 這 些 事 情 永 遠 都 沒 有 辦 法 解 決 的 我 不 是 這 樣 的 態 度 我 想 我 們 會 有 信 心 來 處 理 謝 謝 韋 恩\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6238\t15750\t致謝召委。我想我們請經濟部的林次長臺電的副總以及我們的主委一起上來好了。好,謝謝三位麻煩。\n22617\t28599\t首先我想請教一下次長還有徐副總一起準備我想從4月15日台電承認這個機組跳脫供電吃緊那備載容量只剩下3%開始期我們桃園就成為一個停電斷電的一個重災區那從這個4月16到5月12根據桃園市政府他的統計停電已經超過28次了前前後後高達將近9萬5千戶受到這個停電的影響\n51405\t68442\t那如果要再往前往後再算我覺得那個影響互助其實是更多的那大概上個禮拜六其實也很高興看到我們這個卓榮泰院長到桃園來視察那他剛上任就到桃園來可見他也知道這個問題非常嚴重不過比較美中不足的是\n69842\t94109\t院長到桃園來既沒有通知桃園市政府也沒有通知本席我們都沒有辦法在第一時間來知道問題的所在或者是提供他我們所知道的訊息我們希望這個部分以後是不是臺電或者是經濟部這裡能夠通知一下我想請教一下次長跟副總總統和院長他說電路是國安層次的問題安全穩定的供電是政府對人民跟全世界的承諾這是對的嗎\n95851\t105275\t我想這是我們要做到的任務好 那所以嘛 所以你就是對桃園來講喔對桃園來講這嚴重的跳票嘛所以這就是承認了桃園的供電其實有相當的問題喔所以呢我想跳電停電一直這麼頻繁我們更要知道問題點是什麼我們要知道真正的原因是什麼嘛不要老是告訴我們啊不是鳥就是蛇不是蛇就是螞蟻不是螞蟻又是樹木我覺得這是亂七八糟\n121682\t148264\t最後呢還要我們去體恤桃園臺電的這些從業人員本席告訴你啊我們臺電在桃園所有從政人員真的非常優秀非常的專業但是如果相關的能源政策或是電網的脆弱不是他們能夠去負這個責任的我覺得今天要他們在第一線去承擔我覺得壓力真的是非常的大所以我想請教一下這個次長那現在桃園停電到底是什麼原因\n149065\t149405\t市長,我想過去\n165636\t176767\t臺電在這裏我們陸陸續續在各種不同的預算給臺電已經高達了4千億今天本席聽到你在答詢的時候還提到說後面好像還有一個1千億還是2千億要繼續再來做4千億也都給了你了我們看到我們整個電網的狀況還是這麼的脆弱我想當然我們後續還是要持續的去加強\n187977\t200775\t該撥補的預算我們當然還是要給但是呢我覺得最重要的是你要知道問題出在哪裡你才有辦法對症下藥嗎所以呢我本期在這邊要求喔次長我想我們希望經濟部能夠立即來研議喔我們將來喔大規模這種停電的這個狀況喔\n203539\t204680\t我們都會把原因檢討出來那我們願意提供這相關的資料給\n232186\t250185\t市長本席講的很清楚請你聽明白一點我講的是說你不管是某一個區域某一個區域只要不管在哪個區域大規模的停電都不是說經濟部次台電說了算說這是什麼原因因為你公佈的現在就是沒有公信力嘛所以本席希望能不能研議在一個月之內我們看看怎麼樣成立這個跳電或者停電的這個原因調查委員會由外部的專家學者一起進來\n255370\t255470\t市長﹖市長\n281400\t288933\t本期的問題是說我們的郭部長有說賴總統有指示他要做這個跨部會檢討能源政策這點你知道嗎?\n290951\t315522\t我想總統怎麼跟部長講的我不是很清楚但是在部裡面就是展望這麼大的事情總統交代給部長而次長卻不清楚喔那我覺得你真的要好好去檢討一下我會檢討我個人會檢討好不好那來那所以能源政策如果沒有任何的錯誤喔那為什麼要通盤去檢討顯示就是有問題嗎所以次長我想目前的能源政策對不起喔我還沒有要讓你答\n316582\t342199\t請您要這個答案需要有禮貌一點喔是 謝謝沒有聽清楚問題怎麼回答這就是你們的態度嗎問題要先知道嘛所以我想請教一下我們整個能源政策的問題到底是因為非核家園導致的還是因為再生能源占比拉不起來還是因為2050這個淨零碳排燃煤的這個占比過高是哪一種能源的問題事實上有多元面向我們都在積極的檢討中那我想每一個都是我們可能要去面對的問題\n345270\t365549\t市長,我想在蔡政府的時候能源政策曾經說過要在2025年達成能源轉型的發電佔比再生能源要達到20%但我們現在可以看到7年下來我們的再生能源的部分大概只有提升了4.9%很清楚的也承認了就是能源轉型的一個跳票\n366630\t386440\t那麼再生能源這個成長速度非常的慢而且我想您也一定知道太陽能跟風電都具有不穩定性所以本期來討論這個核三廠一號機組的運轉執照就要在今年的七月到期二號機組也要在明年五月屆期那這個意味著就是核能在2023年178.02億度電在這個明年就全部歸零請教一下這一些已經歸零的電我們要從哪裡去補\n394504\t402167\t我們有做很完整的一個供電的一個提供那事實上會從這個幾個燃氣電廠跟再生能源太陽光電跟離岸風力去年的核二廠廚藝的時候當時的黃美化部長說他要用大潭八號機組跟通宵小型機來補但是我們看到台電的官網當中大潭八號機人還在這個試運轉測試中\n416613\t416753\t市長 再請教您\n435196\t446737\t現在如果供電不足或者供電不穩定影響的我們知道不是只有民生用電還包含工業用電請問您知道一下我們的護國神山台積電一年的用電量大概是多少嗎?\n447891\t451793\t我沒有很完整的資訊不過應該會超過百億度本席告訴您台積電在2022年整年的用電量高達210.8億度這是什麼樣的概念就是比整個核三廠目前整年的發電量178億度還要多所以我想\n467760\t475231\t我們都知道台積電可能會繼續在今年在台灣新建三座晶圓廠還有兩座先進的封裝廠到時候整個用電量恐怕會再創新高那我們看到賴慶德總統說要打到AI之倒但是次長這個AI也需要用電\n485044\t509224\t不管是我們看到紐約客的報導指出在這個OpenAI的CHAP GPT每一天消耗的電力超過50萬度那麼輝達的網站自己也指出一座有10萬顆H100晶片的AI資料中心它需要的是100兆網的一個電這都非常大量的請問次長經濟部我們有預估我們發展AI需要耗多少的電\n510427\t535267\t我跟委員報告我們都在做這個同步的一個掌握跟預估那您剛剛提供的資料像OPEN這個CHAP GT它做的部分是那種大型的語言訓練目前不會在台灣做大型的語言訓練那我們會從這個應用端的部分來做微調我想這個是目前台灣在這個AI的一個發展中那本席就很簡單請教您一下那如果因您的看法跟您的專業目前台灣的供電量是否可以穩定的撐起賴清德總統所說的AI之道\n537248\t556773\t我們很有信心我們可以來供應你覺得非常有信心一定能達成?是我們有信心你要據時以達要務實的來達欸我很務實我們有信心我們有信心多久可以達?是您個人有信心還是整體經濟部大家有信心?我們現在每年的供電就按照我們的規劃在落實當中所以這是您個人有信心還是整個經濟部有計劃的?\n559008\t578600\t我相信我們同仁都有信心能夠來達成最後部長我跟您提光有信心是不夠的有信心當然最好光有信心是不夠的我就要從務實面再去看待我們在台灣現在的整個能源政策整個缺電的問題如果不面對問題尤其像您今天答詢的態度不知道問題不面對問題不覺得問題是問題這些事情永遠都沒有辦法解決的我不是這樣的態度我想我們會有信心來處理謝謝韋恩\n","txt":"致謝召委。我想我們請經濟部的林次長臺電的副總以及我們的主委一起上來好了。好,謝謝三位麻煩。\n首先我想請教一下次長還有徐副總一起準備我想從4月15日台電承認這個機組跳脫供電吃緊那備載容量只剩下3%開始期我們桃園就成為一個停電斷電的一個重災區那從這個4月16到5月12根據桃園市政府他的統計停電已經超過28次了前前後後高達將近9萬5千戶受到這個停電的影響\n那如果要再往前往後再算我覺得那個影響互助其實是更多的那大概上個禮拜六其實也很高興看到我們這個卓榮泰院長到桃園來視察那他剛上任就到桃園來可見他也知道這個問題非常嚴重不過比較美中不足的是\n院長到桃園來既沒有通知桃園市政府也沒有通知本席我們都沒有辦法在第一時間來知道問題的所在或者是提供他我們所知道的訊息我們希望這個部分以後是不是臺電或者是經濟部這裡能夠通知一下我想請教一下次長跟副總總統和院長他說電路是國安層次的問題安全穩定的供電是政府對人民跟全世界的承諾這是對的嗎\n我想這是我們要做到的任務好 那所以嘛 所以你就是對桃園來講喔對桃園來講這嚴重的跳票嘛所以這就是承認了桃園的供電其實有相當的問題喔所以呢我想跳電停電一直這麼頻繁我們更要知道問題點是什麼我們要知道真正的原因是什麼嘛不要老是告訴我們啊不是鳥就是蛇不是蛇就是螞蟻不是螞蟻又是樹木我覺得這是亂七八糟\n最後呢還要我們去體恤桃園臺電的這些從業人員本席告訴你啊我們臺電在桃園所有從政人員真的非常優秀非常的專業但是如果相關的能源政策或是電網的脆弱不是他們能夠去負這個責任的我覺得今天要他們在第一線去承擔我覺得壓力真的是非常的大所以我想請教一下這個次長那現在桃園停電到底是什麼原因\n市長,我想過去\n臺電在這裏我們陸陸續續在各種不同的預算給臺電已經高達了4千億今天本席聽到你在答詢的時候還提到說後面好像還有一個1千億還是2千億要繼續再來做4千億也都給了你了我們看到我們整個電網的狀況還是這麼的脆弱我想當然我們後續還是要持續的去加強\n該撥補的預算我們當然還是要給但是呢我覺得最重要的是你要知道問題出在哪裡你才有辦法對症下藥嗎所以呢我本期在這邊要求喔次長我想我們希望經濟部能夠立即來研議喔我們將來喔大規模這種停電的這個狀況喔\n我們都會把原因檢討出來那我們願意提供這相關的資料給\n市長本席講的很清楚請你聽明白一點我講的是說你不管是某一個區域某一個區域只要不管在哪個區域大規模的停電都不是說經濟部次台電說了算說這是什麼原因因為你公佈的現在就是沒有公信力嘛所以本席希望能不能研議在一個月之內我們看看怎麼樣成立這個跳電或者停電的這個原因調查委員會由外部的專家學者一起進來\n市長﹖市長\n本期的問題是說我們的郭部長有說賴總統有指示他要做這個跨部會檢討能源政策這點你知道嗎?\n我想總統怎麼跟部長講的我不是很清楚但是在部裡面就是展望這麼大的事情總統交代給部長而次長卻不清楚喔那我覺得你真的要好好去檢討一下我會檢討我個人會檢討好不好那來那所以能源政策如果沒有任何的錯誤喔那為什麼要通盤去檢討顯示就是有問題嗎所以次長我想目前的能源政策對不起喔我還沒有要讓你答\n請您要這個答案需要有禮貌一點喔是 謝謝沒有聽清楚問題怎麼回答這就是你們的態度嗎問題要先知道嘛所以我想請教一下我們整個能源政策的問題到底是因為非核家園導致的還是因為再生能源占比拉不起來還是因為2050這個淨零碳排燃煤的這個占比過高是哪一種能源的問題事實上有多元面向我們都在積極的檢討中那我想每一個都是我們可能要去面對的問題\n市長,我想在蔡政府的時候能源政策曾經說過要在2025年達成能源轉型的發電佔比再生能源要達到20%但我們現在可以看到7年下來我們的再生能源的部分大概只有提升了4.9%很清楚的也承認了就是能源轉型的一個跳票\n那麼再生能源這個成長速度非常的慢而且我想您也一定知道太陽能跟風電都具有不穩定性所以本期來討論這個核三廠一號機組的運轉執照就要在今年的七月到期二號機組也要在明年五月屆期那這個意味著就是核能在2023年178.02億度電在這個明年就全部歸零請教一下這一些已經歸零的電我們要從哪裡去補\n我們有做很完整的一個供電的一個提供那事實上會從這個幾個燃氣電廠跟再生能源太陽光電跟離岸風力去年的核二廠廚藝的時候當時的黃美化部長說他要用大潭八號機組跟通宵小型機來補但是我們看到台電的官網當中大潭八號機人還在這個試運轉測試中\n市長 再請教您\n現在如果供電不足或者供電不穩定影響的我們知道不是只有民生用電還包含工業用電請問您知道一下我們的護國神山台積電一年的用電量大概是多少嗎?\n我沒有很完整的資訊不過應該會超過百億度本席告訴您台積電在2022年整年的用電量高達210.8億度這是什麼樣的概念就是比整個核三廠目前整年的發電量178億度還要多所以我想\n我們都知道台積電可能會繼續在今年在台灣新建三座晶圓廠還有兩座先進的封裝廠到時候整個用電量恐怕會再創新高那我們看到賴慶德總統說要打到AI之倒但是次長這個AI也需要用電\n不管是我們看到紐約客的報導指出在這個OpenAI的CHAP GPT每一天消耗的電力超過50萬度那麼輝達的網站自己也指出一座有10萬顆H100晶片的AI資料中心它需要的是100兆網的一個電這都非常大量的請問次長經濟部我們有預估我們發展AI需要耗多少的電\n我跟委員報告我們都在做這個同步的一個掌握跟預估那您剛剛提供的資料像OPEN這個CHAP GT它做的部分是那種大型的語言訓練目前不會在台灣做大型的語言訓練那我們會從這個應用端的部分來做微調我想這個是目前台灣在這個AI的一個發展中那本席就很簡單請教您一下那如果因您的看法跟您的專業目前台灣的供電量是否可以穩定的撐起賴清德總統所說的AI之道\n我們很有信心我們可以來供應你覺得非常有信心一定能達成?是我們有信心你要據時以達要務實的來達欸我很務實我們有信心我們有信心多久可以達?是您個人有信心還是整體經濟部大家有信心?我們現在每年的供電就按照我們的規劃在落實當中所以這是您個人有信心還是整個經濟部有計劃的?\n我相信我們同仁都有信心能夠來達成最後部長我跟您提光有信心是不夠的有信心當然最好光有信心是不夠的我就要從務實面再去看待我們在台灣現在的整個能源政策整個缺電的問題如果不面對問題尤其像您今天答詢的態度不知道問題不面對問題不覺得問題是問題這些事情永遠都沒有辦法解決的我不是這樣的態度我想我們會有信心來處理謝謝韋恩\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.238 --> 00:15.750\n致 謝 召 委 。 我 想 我 們 請 經 濟 部 的 林 次 長 臺 電 的 副 總 以 及 我 們 的 主 委 一 起 上 來 好 了 。 好 , 謝 謝 三 位 麻 煩 。\n\n00:22.617 --> 00:28.599\n首 先 我 想 請 教 一 下 次 長 還 有 徐 副 總 一 起 準 備 我 想 從 4 月 1 5 日 台 電 承 認 這 個 機 組 跳 脫 供 電 吃 緊 那 備 載 容 量 只 剩 下 3 % 開 始 期 我 們 桃 園 就 成 為 一 個 停 電 斷 電 的 一 個 重 災 區 那 從 這 個 4 月 1 6 到 5 月 1 2 根 據 桃 園 市 政 府 他 的 統 計 停 電 已 經 超 過 2 8 次 了 前 前 後 後 高 達 將 近 9 萬 5 千 戶 受 到 這 個 停 電 的 影 響\n\n00:51.405 --> 01:08.442\n那 如 果 要 再 往 前 往 後 再 算 我 覺 得 那 個 影 響 互 助 其 實 是 更 多 的 那 大 概 上 個 禮 拜 六 其 實 也 很 高 興 看 到 我 們 這 個 卓 榮 泰 院 長 到 桃 園 來 視 察 那 他 剛 上 任 就 到 桃 園 來 可 見 他 也 知 道 這 個 問 題 非 常 嚴 重 不 過 比 較 美 中 不 足 的 是\n\n01:09.842 --> 01:34.109\n院 長 到 桃 園 來 既 沒 有 通 知 桃 園 市 政 府 也 沒 有 通 知 本 席 我 們 都 沒 有 辦 法 在 第 一 時 間 來 知 道 問 題 的 所 在 或 者 是 提 供 他 我 們 所 知 道 的 訊 息 我 們 希 望 這 個 部 分 以 後 是 不 是 臺 電 或 者 是 經 濟 部 這 裡 能 夠 通 知 一 下 我 想 請 教 一 下 次 長 跟 副 總 總 統 和 院 長 他 說 電 路 是 國 安 層 次 的 問 題 安 全 穩 定 的 供 電 是 政 府 對 人 民 跟 全 世 界 的 承 諾 這 是 對 的 嗎\n\n01:35.851 --> 01:45.275\n我 想 這 是 我 們 要 做 到 的 任 務 好 那 所 以 嘛 所 以 你 就 是 對 桃 園 來 講 喔 對 桃 園 來 講 這 嚴 重 的 跳 票 嘛 所 以 這 就 是 承 認 了 桃 園 的 供 電 其 實 有 相 當 的 問 題 喔 所 以 呢 我 想 跳 電 停 電 一 直 這 麼 頻 繁 我 們 更 要 知 道 問 題 點 是 什 麼 我 們 要 知 道 真 正 的 原 因 是 什 麼 嘛 不 要 老 是 告 訴 我 們 啊 不 是 鳥 就 是 蛇 不 是 蛇 就 是 螞 蟻 不 是 螞 蟻 又 是 樹 木 我 覺 得 這 是 亂 七 八 糟\n\n02:01.682 --> 02:28.264\n最 後 呢 還 要 我 們 去 體 恤 桃 園 臺 電 的 這 些 從 業 人 員 本 席 告 訴 你 啊 我 們 臺 電 在 桃 園 所 有 從 政 人 員 真 的 非 常 優 秀 非 常 的 專 業 但 是 如 果 相 關 的 能 源 政 策 或 是 電 網 的 脆 弱 不 是 他 們 能 夠 去 負 這 個 責 任 的 我 覺 得 今 天 要 他 們 在 第 一 線 去 承 擔 我 覺 得 壓 力 真 的 是 非 常 的 大 所 以 我 想 請 教 一 下 這 個 次 長 那 現 在 桃 園 停 電 到 底 是 什 麼 原 因\n\n02:29.065 --> 02:29.405\n市 長 , 我 想 過 去\n\n02:45.636 --> 02:56.767\n臺 電 在 這 裏 我 們 陸 陸 續 續 在 各 種 不 同 的 預 算 給 臺 電 已 經 高 達 了 4 千 億 今 天 本 席 聽 到 你 在 答 詢 的 時 候 還 提 到 說 後 面 好 像 還 有 一 個 1 千 億 還 是 2 千 億 要 繼 續 再 來 做 4 千 億 也 都 給 了 你 了 我 們 看 到 我 們 整 個 電 網 的 狀 況 還 是 這 麼 的 脆 弱 我 想 當 然 我 們 後 續 還 是 要 持 續 的 去 加 強\n\n03:07.977 --> 03:20.775\n該 撥 補 的 預 算 我 們 當 然 還 是 要 給 但 是 呢 我 覺 得 最 重 要 的 是 你 要 知 道 問 題 出 在 哪 裡 你 才 有 辦 法 對 症 下 藥 嗎 所 以 呢 我 本 期 在 這 邊 要 求 喔 次 長 我 想 我 們 希 望 經 濟 部 能 夠 立 即 來 研 議 喔 我 們 將 來 喔 大 規 模 這 種 停 電 的 這 個 狀 況 喔\n\n03:23.539 --> 03:24.680\n我 們 都 會 把 原 因 檢 討 出 來 那 我 們 願 意 提 供 這 相 關 的 資 料 給\n\n03:52.186 --> 04:10.185\n市 長 本 席 講 的 很 清 楚 請 你 聽 明 白 一 點 我 講 的 是 說 你 不 管 是 某 一 個 區 域 某 一 個 區 域 只 要 不 管 在 哪 個 區 域 大 規 模 的 停 電 都 不 是 說 經 濟 部 次 台 電 說 了 算 說 這 是 什 麼 原 因 因 為 你 公 佈 的 現 在 就 是 沒 有 公 信 力 嘛 所 以 本 席 希 望 能 不 能 研 議 在 一 個 月 之 內 我 們 看 看 怎 麼 樣 成 立 這 個 跳 電 或 者 停 電 的 這 個 原 因 調 查 委 員 會 由 外 部 的 專 家 學 者 一 起 進 來\n\n04:15.370 --> 04:15.470\n市 長 ﹖ 市 長\n\n04:41.400 --> 04:48.933\n本 期 的 問 題 是 說 我 們 的 郭 部 長 有 說 賴 總 統 有 指 示 他 要 做 這 個 跨 部 會 檢 討 能 源 政 策 這 點 你 知 道 嗎 ?\n\n04:50.951 --> 05:15.522\n我 想 總 統 怎 麼 跟 部 長 講 的 我 不 是 很 清 楚 但 是 在 部 裡 面 就 是 展 望 這 麼 大 的 事 情 總 統 交 代 給 部 長 而 次 長 卻 不 清 楚 喔 那 我 覺 得 你 真 的 要 好 好 去 檢 討 一 下 我 會 檢 討 我 個 人 會 檢 討 好 不 好 那 來 那 所 以 能 源 政 策 如 果 沒 有 任 何 的 錯 誤 喔 那 為 什 麼 要 通 盤 去 檢 討 顯 示 就 是 有 問 題 嗎 所 以 次 長 我 想 目 前 的 能 源 政 策 對 不 起 喔 我 還 沒 有 要 讓 你 答\n\n05:16.582 --> 05:42.199\n請 您 要 這 個 答 案 需 要 有 禮 貌 一 點 喔 是 謝 謝 沒 有 聽 清 楚 問 題 怎 麼 回 答 這 就 是 你 們 的 態 度 嗎 問 題 要 先 知 道 嘛 所 以 我 想 請 教 一 下 我 們 整 個 能 源 政 策 的 問 題 到 底 是 因 為 非 核 家 園 導 致 的 還 是 因 為 再 生 能 源 占 比 拉 不 起 來 還 是 因 為 2 0 5 0 這 個 淨 零 碳 排 燃 煤 的 這 個 占 比 過 高 是 哪 一 種 能 源 的 問 題 事 實 上 有 多 元 面 向 我 們 都 在 積 極 的 檢 討 中 那 我 想 每 一 個 都 是 我 們 可 能 要 去 面 對 的 問 題\n\n05:45.270 --> 06:05.549\n市 長 , 我 想 在 蔡 政 府 的 時 候 能 源 政 策 曾 經 說 過 要 在 2 0 2 5 年 達 成 能 源 轉 型 的 發 電 佔 比 再 生 能 源 要 達 到 2 0 % 但 我 們 現 在 可 以 看 到 7 年 下 來 我 們 的 再 生 能 源 的 部 分 大 概 只 有 提 升 了 4 . 9 % 很 清 楚 的 也 承 認 了 就 是 能 源 轉 型 的 一 個 跳 票\n\n06:06.630 --> 06:26.440\n那 麼 再 生 能 源 這 個 成 長 速 度 非 常 的 慢 而 且 我 想 您 也 一 定 知 道 太 陽 能 跟 風 電 都 具 有 不 穩 定 性 所 以 本 期 來 討 論 這 個 核 三 廠 一 號 機 組 的 運 轉 執 照 就 要 在 今 年 的 七 月 到 期 二 號 機 組 也 要 在 明 年 五 月 屆 期 那 這 個 意 味 著 就 是 核 能 在 2 0 2 3 年 1 7 8 . 0 2 億 度 電 在 這 個 明 年 就 全 部 歸 零 請 教 一 下 這 一 些 已 經 歸 零 的 電 我 們 要 從 哪 裡 去 補\n\n06:34.504 --> 06:42.167\n我 們 有 做 很 完 整 的 一 個 供 電 的 一 個 提 供 那 事 實 上 會 從 這 個 幾 個 燃 氣 電 廠 跟 再 生 能 源 太 陽 光 電 跟 離 岸 風 力 去 年 的 核 二 廠 廚 藝 的 時 候 當 時 的 黃 美 化 部 長 說 他 要 用 大 潭 八 號 機 組 跟 通 宵 小 型 機 來 補 但 是 我 們 看 到 台 電 的 官 網 當 中 大 潭 八 號 機 人 還 在 這 個 試 運 轉 測 試 中\n\n06:56.613 --> 06:56.753\n市 長 再 請 教 您\n\n07:15.196 --> 07:26.737\n現 在 如 果 供 電 不 足 或 者 供 電 不 穩 定 影 響 的 我 們 知 道 不 是 只 有 民 生 用 電 還 包 含 工 業 用 電 請 問 您 知 道 一 下 我 們 的 護 國 神 山 台 積 電 一 年 的 用 電 量 大 概 是 多 少 嗎 ?\n\n07:27.891 --> 07:31.793\n我 沒 有 很 完 整 的 資 訊 不 過 應 該 會 超 過 百 億 度 本 席 告 訴 您 台 積 電 在 2 0 2 2 年 整 年 的 用 電 量 高 達 2 1 0 . 8 億 度 這 是 什 麼 樣 的 概 念 就 是 比 整 個 核 三 廠 目 前 整 年 的 發 電 量 1 7 8 億 度 還 要 多 所 以 我 想\n\n07:47.760 --> 07:55.231\n我 們 都 知 道 台 積 電 可 能 會 繼 續 在 今 年 在 台 灣 新 建 三 座 晶 圓 廠 還 有 兩 座 先 進 的 封 裝 廠 到 時 候 整 個 用 電 量 恐 怕 會 再 創 新 高 那 我 們 看 到 賴 慶 德 總 統 說 要 打 到 A I 之 倒 但 是 次 長 這 個 A I 也 需 要 用 電\n\n08:05.044 --> 08:29.224\n不 管 是 我 們 看 到 紐 約 客 的 報 導 指 出 在 這 個 O p e n A I 的 C H A P G P T 每 一 天 消 耗 的 電 力 超 過 5 0 萬 度 那 麼 輝 達 的 網 站 自 己 也 指 出 一 座 有 1 0 萬 顆 H 1 0 0 晶 片 的 A I 資 料 中 心 它 需 要 的 是 1 0 0 兆 網 的 一 個 電 這 都 非 常 大 量 的 請 問 次 長 經 濟 部 我 們 有 預 估 我 們 發 展 A I 需 要 耗 多 少 的 電\n\n08:30.427 --> 08:55.267\n我 跟 委 員 報 告 我 們 都 在 做 這 個 同 步 的 一 個 掌 握 跟 預 估 那 您 剛 剛 提 供 的 資 料 像 O P E N 這 個 C H A P G T 它 做 的 部 分 是 那 種 大 型 的 語 言 訓 練 目 前 不 會 在 台 灣 做 大 型 的 語 言 訓 練 那 我 們 會 從 這 個 應 用 端 的 部 分 來 做 微 調 我 想 這 個 是 目 前 台 灣 在 這 個 A I 的 一 個 發 展 中 那 本 席 就 很 簡 單 請 教 您 一 下 那 如 果 因 您 的 看 法 跟 您 的 專 業 目 前 台 灣 的 供 電 量 是 否 可 以 穩 定 的 撐 起 賴 清 德 總 統 所 說 的 A I 之 道\n\n08:57.248 --> 09:16.773\n我 們 很 有 信 心 我 們 可 以 來 供 應 你 覺 得 非 常 有 信 心 一 定 能 達 成 ? 是 我 們 有 信 心 你 要 據 時 以 達 要 務 實 的 來 達 欸 我 很 務 實 我 們 有 信 心 我 們 有 信 心 多 久 可 以 達 ? 是 您 個 人 有 信 心 還 是 整 體 經 濟 部 大 家 有 信 心 ? 我 們 現 在 每 年 的 供 電 就 按 照 我 們 的 規 劃 在 落 實 當 中 所 以 這 是 您 個 人 有 信 心 還 是 整 個 經 濟 部 有 計 劃 的 ?\n\n09:19.008 --> 09:38.600\n我 相 信 我 們 同 仁 都 有 信 心 能 夠 來 達 成 最 後 部 長 我 跟 您 提 光 有 信 心 是 不 夠 的 有 信 心 當 然 最 好 光 有 信 心 是 不 夠 的 我 就 要 從 務 實 面 再 去 看 待 我 們 在 台 灣 現 在 的 整 個 能 源 政 策 整 個 缺 電 的 問 題 如 果 不 面 對 問 題 尤 其 像 您 今 天 答 詢 的 態 度 不 知 道 問 題 不 面 對 問 題 不 覺 得 問 題 是 問 題 這 些 事 情 永 遠 都 沒 有 辦 法 解 決 的 我 不 是 這 樣 的 態 度 我 想 我 們 會 有 信 心 來 處 理 謝 謝 韋 恩\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.238,"end":15.75,"text":"致謝召委。我想我們請經濟部的林次長臺電的副總以及我們的主委一起上來好了。好,謝謝三位麻煩。"},{"start":22.617,"end":28.599,"text":"首先我想請教一下次長還有徐副總一起準備我想從4月15日台電承認這個機組跳脫供電吃緊那備載容量只剩下3%開始期我們桃園就成為一個停電斷電的一個重災區那從這個4月16到5月12根據桃園市政府他的統計停電已經超過28次了前前後後高達將近9萬5千戶受到這個停電的影響"},{"start":51.405,"end":68.442,"text":"那如果要再往前往後再算我覺得那個影響互助其實是更多的那大概上個禮拜六其實也很高興看到我們這個卓榮泰院長到桃園來視察那他剛上任就到桃園來可見他也知道這個問題非常嚴重不過比較美中不足的是"},{"start":69.842,"end":94.109,"text":"院長到桃園來既沒有通知桃園市政府也沒有通知本席我們都沒有辦法在第一時間來知道問題的所在或者是提供他我們所知道的訊息我們希望這個部分以後是不是臺電或者是經濟部這裡能夠通知一下我想請教一下次長跟副總總統和院長他說電路是國安層次的問題安全穩定的供電是政府對人民跟全世界的承諾這是對的嗎"},{"start":95.851,"end":105.275,"text":"我想這是我們要做到的任務好 那所以嘛 所以你就是對桃園來講喔對桃園來講這嚴重的跳票嘛所以這就是承認了桃園的供電其實有相當的問題喔所以呢我想跳電停電一直這麼頻繁我們更要知道問題點是什麼我們要知道真正的原因是什麼嘛不要老是告訴我們啊不是鳥就是蛇不是蛇就是螞蟻不是螞蟻又是樹木我覺得這是亂七八糟"},{"start":121.682,"end":148.264,"text":"最後呢還要我們去體恤桃園臺電的這些從業人員本席告訴你啊我們臺電在桃園所有從政人員真的非常優秀非常的專業但是如果相關的能源政策或是電網的脆弱不是他們能夠去負這個責任的我覺得今天要他們在第一線去承擔我覺得壓力真的是非常的大所以我想請教一下這個次長那現在桃園停電到底是什麼原因"},{"start":149.065,"end":149.405,"text":"市長,我想過去"},{"start":165.636,"end":176.767,"text":"臺電在這裏我們陸陸續續在各種不同的預算給臺電已經高達了4千億今天本席聽到你在答詢的時候還提到說後面好像還有一個1千億還是2千億要繼續再來做4千億也都給了你了我們看到我們整個電網的狀況還是這麼的脆弱我想當然我們後續還是要持續的去加強"},{"start":187.977,"end":200.775,"text":"該撥補的預算我們當然還是要給但是呢我覺得最重要的是你要知道問題出在哪裡你才有辦法對症下藥嗎所以呢我本期在這邊要求喔次長我想我們希望經濟部能夠立即來研議喔我們將來喔大規模這種停電的這個狀況喔"},{"start":203.539,"end":204.68,"text":"我們都會把原因檢討出來那我們願意提供這相關的資料給"},{"start":232.186,"end":250.185,"text":"市長本席講的很清楚請你聽明白一點我講的是說你不管是某一個區域某一個區域只要不管在哪個區域大規模的停電都不是說經濟部次台電說了算說這是什麼原因因為你公佈的現在就是沒有公信力嘛所以本席希望能不能研議在一個月之內我們看看怎麼樣成立這個跳電或者停電的這個原因調查委員會由外部的專家學者一起進來"},{"start":255.37,"end":255.47,"text":"市長﹖市長"},{"start":281.4,"end":288.933,"text":"本期的問題是說我們的郭部長有說賴總統有指示他要做這個跨部會檢討能源政策這點你知道嗎?"},{"start":290.951,"end":315.522,"text":"我想總統怎麼跟部長講的我不是很清楚但是在部裡面就是展望這麼大的事情總統交代給部長而次長卻不清楚喔那我覺得你真的要好好去檢討一下我會檢討我個人會檢討好不好那來那所以能源政策如果沒有任何的錯誤喔那為什麼要通盤去檢討顯示就是有問題嗎所以次長我想目前的能源政策對不起喔我還沒有要讓你答"},{"start":316.582,"end":342.199,"text":"請您要這個答案需要有禮貌一點喔是 謝謝沒有聽清楚問題怎麼回答這就是你們的態度嗎問題要先知道嘛所以我想請教一下我們整個能源政策的問題到底是因為非核家園導致的還是因為再生能源占比拉不起來還是因為2050這個淨零碳排燃煤的這個占比過高是哪一種能源的問題事實上有多元面向我們都在積極的檢討中那我想每一個都是我們可能要去面對的問題"},{"start":345.27,"end":365.549,"text":"市長,我想在蔡政府的時候能源政策曾經說過要在2025年達成能源轉型的發電佔比再生能源要達到20%但我們現在可以看到7年下來我們的再生能源的部分大概只有提升了4.9%很清楚的也承認了就是能源轉型的一個跳票"},{"start":366.63,"end":386.44,"text":"那麼再生能源這個成長速度非常的慢而且我想您也一定知道太陽能跟風電都具有不穩定性所以本期來討論這個核三廠一號機組的運轉執照就要在今年的七月到期二號機組也要在明年五月屆期那這個意味著就是核能在2023年178.02億度電在這個明年就全部歸零請教一下這一些已經歸零的電我們要從哪裡去補"},{"start":394.504,"end":402.167,"text":"我們有做很完整的一個供電的一個提供那事實上會從這個幾個燃氣電廠跟再生能源太陽光電跟離岸風力去年的核二廠廚藝的時候當時的黃美化部長說他要用大潭八號機組跟通宵小型機來補但是我們看到台電的官網當中大潭八號機人還在這個試運轉測試中"},{"start":416.613,"end":416.753,"text":"市長 再請教您"},{"start":435.196,"end":446.737,"text":"現在如果供電不足或者供電不穩定影響的我們知道不是只有民生用電還包含工業用電請問您知道一下我們的護國神山台積電一年的用電量大概是多少嗎?"},{"start":447.891,"end":451.793,"text":"我沒有很完整的資訊不過應該會超過百億度本席告訴您台積電在2022年整年的用電量高達210.8億度這是什麼樣的概念就是比整個核三廠目前整年的發電量178億度還要多所以我想"},{"start":467.76,"end":475.231,"text":"我們都知道台積電可能會繼續在今年在台灣新建三座晶圓廠還有兩座先進的封裝廠到時候整個用電量恐怕會再創新高那我們看到賴慶德總統說要打到AI之倒但是次長這個AI也需要用電"},{"start":485.044,"end":509.224,"text":"不管是我們看到紐約客的報導指出在這個OpenAI的CHAP GPT每一天消耗的電力超過50萬度那麼輝達的網站自己也指出一座有10萬顆H100晶片的AI資料中心它需要的是100兆網的一個電這都非常大量的請問次長經濟部我們有預估我們發展AI需要耗多少的電"},{"start":510.427,"end":535.267,"text":"我跟委員報告我們都在做這個同步的一個掌握跟預估那您剛剛提供的資料像OPEN這個CHAP GT它做的部分是那種大型的語言訓練目前不會在台灣做大型的語言訓練那我們會從這個應用端的部分來做微調我想這個是目前台灣在這個AI的一個發展中那本席就很簡單請教您一下那如果因您的看法跟您的專業目前台灣的供電量是否可以穩定的撐起賴清德總統所說的AI之道"},{"start":537.248,"end":556.773,"text":"我們很有信心我們可以來供應你覺得非常有信心一定能達成?是我們有信心你要據時以達要務實的來達欸我很務實我們有信心我們有信心多久可以達?是您個人有信心還是整體經濟部大家有信心?我們現在每年的供電就按照我們的規劃在落實當中所以這是您個人有信心還是整個經濟部有計劃的?"},{"start":559.008,"end":578.6,"text":"我相信我們同仁都有信心能夠來達成最後部長我跟您提光有信心是不夠的有信心當然最好光有信心是不夠的我就要從務實面再去看待我們在台灣現在的整個能源政策整個缺電的問題如果不面對問題尤其像您今天答詢的態度不知道問題不面對問題不覺得問題是問題這些事情永遠都沒有辦法解決的我不是這樣的態度我想我們會有信心來處理謝謝韋恩"}]}}}}