{"id":153207,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153207","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331dc0aa23962b8c8d45c2a8e696f21355c333bc5d453e1b195f1fb4a580e126be45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"10:09:50 - 10:21:34","影片長度":"00:11:44","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":704,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T10:21:34+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T10:09:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":375,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時9分）謝謝主席，有請我們的主計處處長陳處長。"],["主席：有請主計長。"],["賴委員惠員：主計長早安，很高興在這個地方看到熟悉的處長，歡迎。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：我想針對今天財政委員會的質詢跟主計長做一個探討，其實這張圖片就是一個失真的CPI數據，看起來是央行開著這一臺車，你是央行的眼睛，可是如果央行沒有一個很精準的眼睛，它的視力如果不夠好的話，主計總處提供的數據如果不夠精準的時候，相對的央行在整體的貨幣政策可能會失準。所以主計長，你的主計總處非常非常的重要，不知道你有沒有同感？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有，是我也覺得責任很重大。"],["賴委員惠員：之前有很多的委員一直告訴你，為什麼CPI、通膨跟民眾的體感差距那麼大，當然就是由地方政府陳報上來給主計總處的數據其實是有落差，為什麼會有落差？在反映電價的部分，電價的調整對CPI的影響在什麼時候會浮現？以主計長的經驗，我們3月份已經公布電價要調整了，可是4月份的CPI上漲1.95%，遠低於3月份，為什麼會有這樣不升反降的情形呢？我想聽聽主計長你對電費調整的看法。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為事實上電費是4月才調漲，我們4月份公布的CPI是1.95%，所以它會反映在5月份的CPI，我們整年預估大概是1.85%，但是整個的影響率應該是一整年會影響0.024%左右，這樣加上去的話，4月到8月的影響如果用1.85%來算，再加上影響數0.18%左右，這樣就會變成2.03%，不會維持原來的1.85%。你說這個CPI是不是真的能夠真實反映大家通膨的壓力？因為整個CPI的項數有三百六十幾項，有一些是屬於比較不敏感的，有一些是比較敏感的，所以大家針對敏感的項目就會覺得影響很大，但事實上有一些他會沒有感覺，譬如說我很多年才汰換一個電視機，這個部分他就沒有覺得影響很大。"],["賴委員惠員：所以就是說他的感受性不是……"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是那麼強，但是有一些是在下降的。"],["賴委員惠員：那你也預估今年的CPI會提高到2.03%左右，這跟之前朱主計長的看法也是一致。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，如果照這樣算的話。"],["賴委員惠員：那時候他也知道電價可能會調漲，怎麼樣讓CPI的數據更貼近民眾的感覺？中央政府跟地方縣市政府的統計數據是不是可以有一致性？剛才顏委員也講到，他說臺中市政府的稅收是比較好的，他是好學生，相對的，臺南市不是壞學生，他是一個窮苦的學生，窮苦的學生報上去給你的，其實不見得CPI對我們的衝擊性有這麼大，就像你講的，你以前在臺南生活的消費跟在臺北生活的消費絕對是不一樣的。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["賴委員惠員：如果我們取平均值的時候，去頭去尾一定是會有不公平的地方，可是真正的問題我個人倒是有一個看法，目前有多少人在做這些訪查，各地的物價漲幅當然一定不同，那麼如何依地方政府的制度去做這樣的一個政策？因為我一再強調你就是央行的眼睛，你提供的數據對央行政策的制訂是非常重要的，如果你的訪查員明顯不足的時候該怎麼辦呢？你沒有辦法做出真實性、準確性的時候，你的QA、QC做出來跟民眾的差距都是這麼遠的。我用一個簡單的例子，有很多委員一直提到房租的問題，房價一直漲、一直漲，可是房租指數年增率相對平穩，為什麼呈現這樣的狀況？你們的訪查員是調查房客還是房東？"],["陳主計長淑姿：房客、房東都有。"],["賴委員惠員：兩個都有，問題是它基本上是失準的，因為現行的作法就是房東提供計算的數據和房客提供計算的數據其實是有落差的。我們看到主計總處在111年報告指出，房租指數私有住宅樣本才1,200戶，社會住宅的樣本有1.4萬戶，怎麼會是這樣的差距？最主要就是社會住宅的數據好拿，私有的住宅不好拿，你怎麼看現行的調查方式沒有辦法反映真實的房租狀況，在你的認知中，怎麼看這個問題呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：其實我們一般房租調查，房東會抽四分之一，房客抽四分之三，一般調查的戶數大概都有1,400戶左右。如果實際訪查的數據有些偏低，例如房東會以多報少的狀況，或者沒有辦法真實呈現，但是主計總處還會去參考一些大數據、相關的數據來做調整，所以並不是各縣市調查出來的數據我們就直接呈現，不是，我們會和專家學者做一些討論，然後把相關的數據做調整。"],["賴委員惠員：是，主計長，以你在地方主計處的工作經驗，是不是可以非常明顯感受到，地方政府在處理主計業務量的人力其實是不夠的？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，因為統計調查人員必須要很專業，有一些必須要有訪問的技巧才能夠真正訪問到，因為有時候像家庭收支涉及到的是一些機敏的資料，你要問人家必須要有很好的技巧，所以統計調查人員都必須要訓練。各縣市直接主計調查人員大概200多人，連同各鄉鎮、各區公所兼職的統計人員，還包括各縣市的統計員……"],["賴委員惠員：依你之前在臺南市的經驗，臺南市政府約僱的統計調查員跟兼任的調查員總共有多少人？"],["陳主計長淑姿：以臺南市來講，統計調查員有22人，兼任的大概40人左右。"],["賴委員惠員：其實明顯不足。"],["陳主計長淑姿：還有一些案件是按件計酬的，本身我們主計處的統計人力也會投入。"],["賴委員惠員：人力這麼少，要做的項目這麼多，還有調查的方法，房東的調查數和房客的調查數，我跟你講，進去的數字是不對的、是失準的，你出來的答案也是失準的，你提供給央行的時候，就變成非常非常吃虧。所以我個人的態度是冤有頭債有主，主計處不應該因為通貨膨脹被責罵，這是央行的責任。","不過我倒是想問主計長，你知道臺北的蚵仔麵線一碗多少錢？你一定要去吃才會知道。"],["陳主計長淑姿：分大碗、小碗。"],["賴委員惠員：大碗一碗多少錢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：小碗55元、大碗65元，我那天去士林夜市才問過。"],["賴委員惠員：不只在夜市吃，你在一般的商店，尤其是西門町，你也要去吃，這是非常重要的，大碗應該不會那麼便宜。你要非常深刻的去體察民意，對物價指數，我跟你講，臺北什麼都貴，比我們臺南真的差距太多了，我想更細緻、更貼近真實的CPI數字，用其他的方式、各種的方式換算出來，你才可以有效的協助央行做好最好的貨幣政策。增加統計數字透明度和真實性，真實的反應通膨和民間的體感，這是我對主計總處的要求，也是一個拜託。謝謝。"],["陳主計長淑姿：謝謝委員的指教。"],["主席：謝謝賴惠員委員質詢，賴委員會後可以請主計長吃蚵仔麵線。","接著請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-14","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","賴惠員","賴士葆","王鴻薇","王世堅","李彥秀","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳玉珍","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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看 起 來 就 是 說 央 行 開 的 這 一 台 車 , 那 你 是 央 行 的 眼 睛 , 可 是 如 果 央 行 沒 有 有 一 個 很 精 準 的 一 個 眼 睛 的 話 ,\n\n3\n00:00:36,989 --> 00:01:01,670\n那 他 的 勢 力 如 果 不 夠 好 的 話 主 計 處 的 勢 力 那 他 提 供 給 他 的 一 個 數 據 如 果 是 不 夠 精 準 的 時 候 相 對 的 就 是 說 央 行 在 整 體 的 一 個 貨 幣 政 策 他 可 能 會 失 準 所 以 主 計 長 你 的 主 計 處 非 常 非 常 的 重 要 不 知 道 你 有 沒 有 同 感\n\n4\n00:01:06,847 --> 00:01:28,886\n在 之 前 有 很 多 的 一 個 委 員 一 直 在 告 訴 你 就 是 說 為 什 麼 這 個 C P I 這 個 通 盤 這 個 跟 大 家 就 是 民 眾 的 一 個 體 感 差 距 那 麼 大 那 當 然 就 是 說 由 地 方 政 府 呈 報 上 來 的 主 計 處 他 其 實 是 有 落 差 的 那 為 什 麼 會 有 落 差\n\n5\n00:01:29,787 --> 00:01:29,907\n賴 慧 卿 議 員\n\n6\n00:01:45,302 --> 00:02:02,169\n我 們 已 經 就 是 反 映 就 是 這 個 店 家 要 調 整 了 可 是 4 月 份 的 C P I 上 漲 1 . 9 5 遠 低 於 3 月 份 那 為 什 麼 會 有 這 樣 的 一 個 情 形 不 升 緩 降 呢 為 什 麼 我 想 聽 聽 主 計 長 你 對 這 一 個 這 個 店 會 的 一 個 看 法\n\n7\n00:02:05,931 --> 00:02:28,445\n因 為 事 實 上 電 費 它 是 4 月 才 調 漲 才 調 漲 那 這 一 個 部 分 我 們 4 月 份 公 布 的 是 1 . 9 5 那 所 以 它 會 反 映 在 5 月 份 的 一 個 C P I 那 我 們 整 年 預 估 大 概 是 1 . 8 5 但 是 整 個 一 個 如 果 影 響 率 應 該 是 一 整 年 會 影 響 大 概 約 0 . 0 2 4 左 右 那 這 樣\n\n8\n00:02:33,428 --> 00:02:45,719\n加 上 去 的 話 大 概 會 變 成 如 果 說 4 月 到 8 月 的 一 個 影 響 它 會 變 成 如 果 說 用 1 . 8 5 這 樣 來 算 再 加 上 影 響 數 應 該 是 0 . 1 8 左 右 這 樣 就 會 變 成 2 . 0 3 就 是 不 會 維 持 原 來 的 1 . 8 5 是 這 樣 子\n\n9\n00:02:53,584 --> 00:03:18,393\n那 本 身 這 個 你 說 這 個 C P I 是 不 是 真 的 能 夠 真 實 反 映 大 家 的 一 個 通 膨 的 壓 力 那 因 為 整 個 C P I 他 的 像 數 3 6 0 幾 像 那 這 個 部 分 如 果 因 為 有 一 些 是 屬 於 比 較 沒 有 敏 感 的 有 一 些 是 比 較 敏 感 的 所 以 大 家 針 對 敏 感 的 一 個 項 目 他 就 會 影 響 覺 得 影 響 很 大 但 是 事 實 上 有 一 些 其 實 是 他 會\n\n10\n00:03:19,153 --> 00:03:19,353\n李 慧 琼 議 員\n\n11\n00:03:39,497 --> 00:03:49,742\n主 計 長 其 實 他 的 一 個 看 法 也 是 一 致 的 那 時 候 他 也 知 道 就 是 說 電 價 可 能 是 會 調 漲 那 怎 麼 樣 讓 這 一 個 C B I 的 數 據 更 貼 近 民 眾 的 感 覺 我 覺 得 我 們 如 果 從 中 央\n\n12\n00:03:57,905 --> 00:04:24,882\n中 央 的 一 個 政 府 是 不 是 可 以 跟 地 方 縣 市 政 府 的 統 計 數 據 可 以 就 是 有 一 個 一 致 性 剛 才 那 個 顏 委 員 也 講 到 了 他 說 他 臺 中 基 本 上 他 臺 中 市 政 府 他 的 一 個 稅 收 是 比 較 好 的 他 是 好 學 生 那 相 對 的 台 南 市 他 不 是 壞 學 生 他 是 一 個 窮 苦 的 學 生 那 窮 苦 的 學 生 他 報 上 去 給 你 的 其 實 我 們 不 見 得 就 是 說 我 們 的\n\n13\n00:04:25,362 --> 00:04:25,702\n李 慧 琼 議 員\n\n14\n00:04:50,390 --> 00:04:50,530\n賴 慧 玉 議 員\n\n15\n00:05:13,061 --> 00:05:39,293\n你 是 央 行 的 眼 睛 這 個 央 行 他 的 政 策 的 一 個 制 定 對 你 提 供 數 據 來 講 的 話 是 非 常 重 要 的 那 如 果 你 的 訪 查 眼 是 明 顯 不 足 的 時 候 那 該 怎 麼 辦 啊 那 你 沒 有 辦 法 做 出 真 實 性 準 確 性 的 時 候 你 的 Q A Q C 做 出 來 的 都 是 其 實 跟 民 眾 的 差 距 都 是 這 麼 遠 的 那 你 看 喔 我 用 一 個 簡 單 的 就 是 說\n\n16\n00:05:40,293 --> 00:05:59,441\n我 們 黃 豬 這 個 黃 豬 大 家 有 很 多 委 員 也 一 直 在 提 這 個 問 題 黃 價 其 實 一 直 漲 一 直 漲 可 是 黃 豬 的 這 個 指 數 年 增 率 相 對 的 一 個 平 穩 我 們 從 這 個 數 字 裡 頭 去 看 它 那 為 什 麼 會 是 呈 現 這 樣 的 一 個 狀 況 因 為 你 們 的 訪 查 員 你 們 是 調 查 黃 柯 還 是 那 個 黃 東\n\n17\n00:06:08,376 --> 00:06:28,819\n主 計 長 你 知 道 這 些 訪 查 員 是 調 查 黃 東 還 是 黃 克 黃 克 黃 東 都 有 沒 有 只 有 黃 東 有 而 已 只 有 黃 東 有 當 然 也 不 是 兩 個 都 有 啦 對 不 起 兩 個 都 有 可 是 問 題 就 是 說 他 其 實 基 本 上 是 失 準 的 為 什 麼\n\n18\n00:06:29,580 --> 00:06:31,383\n李 慧 琼 議 員\n\n19\n00:06:45,799 --> 00:06:58,067\n主 計 總 處 在 1 1 1 年 的 那 個 報 告 指 出 就 是 黃 租 的 一 個 指 數 你 私 有 的 住 宅 樣 本 才 1 2 0 0 戶 那 就 是 社 會 住 宅 的 樣 本 有 1 . 4 萬 戶 為 什 麼 會 是 有 這 樣 的 一 個 差 距\n\n20\n00:07:02,170 --> 00:07:18,638\n主 計 長 , 最 主 要 就 是 社 會 住 宅 的 資 料 好 拿 嘛 , 你 私 有 的 一 個 住 宅 不 好 拿 嘛 , 那 你 怎 麼 樣 來 看 , 就 是 說 現 行 的 一 個 調 查 方 式 沒 有 辦 法 反 映 真 實 的 房 租 的 一 個 狀 況 , 在 你 的 認 知 裡 頭 你 怎 麼 看 待 這 個 問 題 呢 ?\n\n21\n00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:34,641\n其 實 我 們 一 般 調 查 的 話 如 果 是 在 房 租 調 查 我 們 裡 面 會 抽 房 東 四 分 之 一 然 後 房 客 抽 四 分 之 三 那 一 般 調 查 的 戶 數 大 概 都 是 有 1 4 0 0 戶 左 右 這 樣 子\n\n22\n00:07:37,425 --> 00:07:45,978\n這 一 個 部 分 呢 因 為 如 果 說 你 實 際 訪 查 的 數 據 有 一 些 會 偏 低 譬 如 說 黃 東 他 會 以 多 報 少 這 樣 的 一 個 狀 況 或 者 是 說 沒 有 辦 法 真 實 呈 現 但 是 我 們 在\n\n23\n00:07:51,866 --> 00:08:07,616\n主 計 總 處 他 還 會 去 參 考 一 些 大 數 據 相 關 的 一 個 數 據 來 做 一 個 調 整 那 所 以 並 不 是 說 各 縣 市 調 查 出 來 的 一 個 數 據 我 們 就 直 接 呈 現 不 是 我 們 還 會 做 一 些 和 專 家 學 者 去 做 一 個 討 論 然 後 把 相 關 的 一 些 數 據 做 調 整 是 這 樣 子 是\n\n24\n00:08:10,077 --> 00:08:25,005\n主 計 長 以 你 在 地 方 的 一 個 主 計 處 的 一 個 工 作 經 驗 是 不 是 可 以 非 常 明 顯 的 感 受 出 來 就 是 地 方 政 府 他 其 實 在 處 理 主 計 的 一 個 業 務 量 的 人 力 其 實 是 不 夠 的\n\n25\n00:08:26,782 --> 00:08:55,391\n對 事 實 上 是 這 樣 子 因 為 統 計 調 查 人 員 的 部 分 呢 他 是 必 須 要 很 專 業 然 後 有 一 些 必 須 要 有 訪 問 的 技 巧 才 能 夠 真 正 的 訪 問 一 般 又 有 說 像 家 庭 收 支 他 涉 及 到 的 是 一 些 機 密 的 資 料 所 以 他 機 敏 的 資 料 所 以 你 要 去 問 人 家 你 必 須 要 要 很 好 的 一 個 技 巧 所 以 他 這 個 統 計 調 查 人 員 都 不 需 要 訓 練 所 以 他 一 般 平 常 他 都 是 各 縣 市 我 們 會 有 主 計 處 直 接 直 接 統 計 調 查 人 員 大 概 有\n\n26\n00:08:55,791 --> 00:08:55,951\n臺 南 市 政 府\n\n27\n00:09:15,902 --> 00:09:26,539\n因 為 以 台 南 市 它 來 講 它 是 兼 任 統 計 調 查 員 不 是 它 統 計 調 查 員 是 有 2 2 個 那 兼 任 的 它 大 概 有 4 0 個 左 右 那 人 口 本 身\n\n28\n00:09:29,682 --> 00:09:58,656\n事 實 啊 健 身 調 查 也 4 0 個 然 後 他 還 有 一 些 案 件 案 資 技 醜 的 然 後 本 身 我 們 自 己 主 計 處 的 統 計 人 員 也 會 投 入 人 力 是 這 麼 少 啦 要 做 的 項 目 這 麼 多 啦 還 有 就 是 荒 華 荒 華 事 實 上 就 是 說 黃 東 的 一 個 調 查 室 然 後 還 有 黃 克 的 一 個 調 查 室 明 顯 我 跟 你 講 你 進 去 的 數 據 是 不 對 的 然 後 是 失 準 的 你 出 來 的 答 案 也 是 失 準 的\n\n29\n00:09:59,136 --> 00:10:21,337\n所 以 說 你 要 提 供 給 就 是 那 個 央 行 的 時 候 這 樣 子 就 變 成 非 常 非 常 的 吃 虧 了 所 以 我 個 人 持 的 態 度 是 菸 有 頭 再 有 主 啦 主 計 處 不 應 該 就 是 因 為 通 貨 膨 脹 而 被 責 罵 這 個 是 央 行 的 責 任 不 過 我 倒 是 想 問 主 計 長 你 知 道 那 個 臺 北 的 蚵 仔 麵 線 一 萬 多 少\n\n30\n00:10:24,741 --> 00:10:50,476\n你 一 定 要 去 吃 啊 , 你 才 會 知 道 大 碗 一 碗 多 少 ? 小 碗 5 5 元 , 大 碗 6 5 元 , 因 為 我 那 天 去 士 林 夜 市 才 問 過 而 已 我 跟 你 講 , 你 不 只 在 夜 市 吃 , 你 在 一 般 的 商 店 尤 其 是 西 門 町 你 也 要 去 吃 這 個 是 非 常 重 要 的 , 應 該 大 碗 不 會 那 麼 便 宜\n\n31\n00:10:51,980 --> 00:11:09,226\n大 碗 不 會 那 麼 便 宜 所 以 就 是 說 你 要 非 常 深 刻 的 去 體 察 民 意 然 後 對 這 一 個 物 價 指 數 我 跟 你 講 台 北 什 麼 都 貴 啊 比 我 們 台 南 真 的 是 差 距 太 多 了 我 想 更 細 緻 更 貼 切 真 實 的 一 個 C P I 的 一 個 數 字\n\n32\n00:11:10,566 --> 00:11:10,726\n賴 慧 玉 議 員\n\n33\n00:11:35,652 --> 00:11:35,672\n賴 慈 寶\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n854\t17497\t主長早安,很高興在這個地方看到熟悉的主計長,謝謝,歡迎。那我想就針對今天我們在財政委員會的一個質詢,那跟主計長做一個探討。\n19659\t36028\t這張圖片是CPA的一個數據,可是看起來就是說央行開的這一台車,那你是央行的眼睛,可是如果央行沒有有一個很精準的一個眼睛的話,\n36989\t61670\t那他的勢力如果不夠好的話 主計處的勢力那他提供給他的一個數據 如果是不夠精準的時候相對的就是說 央行在整體的一個貨幣政策 他可能會失準所以 主計長 你的主計處 非常非常的重要不知道你有沒有同感\n66847\t88886\t在之前有很多的一個委員一直在告訴你就是說為什麼這個CPI這個通盤這個跟大家就是民眾的一個體感差距那麼大那當然就是說由地方政府呈報上來的主計處他其實是有落差的那為什麼會有落差\n89787\t89907\t賴慧卿議員\n105302\t122169\t我們已經就是反映就是這個店家要調整了可是4月份的CPI上漲1.95 遠低於3月份那為什麼會有這樣的一個情形不升緩降呢為什麼我想聽聽主計長你對這一個這個店會的一個看法\n125931\t148445\t因為事實上電費它是4月才調漲才調漲那這一個部分我們4月份公布的是1.95那所以它會反映在5月份的一個CPI那我們整年預估大概是1.85但是整個一個如果影響率應該是一整年會影響大概約0.024左右那這樣\n153428\t165719\t加上去的話大概會變成如果說4月到8月的一個影響它會變成如果說用1.85這樣來算再加上影響數應該是0.18左右這樣就會變成2.03就是不會維持原來的1.85是這樣子\n173584\t198393\t那本身這個你說這個CPI是不是真的能夠真實反映大家的一個通膨的壓力那因為整個CPI他的像數360幾像那這個部分如果因為有一些是屬於比較沒有敏感的有一些是比較敏感的所以大家針對敏感的一個項目他就會影響覺得影響很大但是事實上有一些其實是他會\n199153\t199353\t李慧琼議員\n219497\t229742\t主計長其實他的一個看法也是一致的那時候他也知道就是說電價可能是會調漲那怎麼樣讓這一個CBI的數據更貼近民眾的感覺我覺得我們如果從中央\n237905\t264882\t中央的一個政府是不是可以跟地方縣市政府的統計數據可以就是有一個一致性剛才那個顏委員也講到了他說他臺中基本上他臺中市政府他的一個稅收是比較好的他是好學生那相對的台南市他不是壞學生他是一個窮苦的學生那窮苦的學生他報上去給你的其實我們不見得就是說我們的\n265362\t265702\t李慧琼議員\n290390\t290530\t賴慧玉議員\n313061\t339293\t你是央行的眼睛這個央行他的政策的一個制定對你提供數據來講的話是非常重要的那如果你的訪查眼是明顯不足的時候那該怎麼辦啊那你沒有辦法做出真實性準確性的時候你的QA QC做出來的都是其實跟民眾的差距都是這麼遠的那你看喔我用一個簡單的就是說\n340293\t359441\t我們黃豬這個黃豬大家有很多委員也一直在提這個問題黃價其實一直漲一直漲可是黃豬的這個指數年增率相對的一個平穩我們從這個數字裡頭去看它那為什麼會是呈現這樣的一個狀況因為你們的訪查員你們是調查黃柯還是那個黃東\n368376\t388819\t主計長你知道這些訪查員是調查黃東還是黃克黃克黃東都有沒有只有黃東有而已只有黃東有當然也不是兩個都有啦對不起兩個都有可是問題就是說他其實基本上是失準的為什麼\n389580\t391383\t李慧琼議員\n405799\t418067\t主計總處在111年的那個報告指出就是黃租的一個指數你私有的住宅樣本才1200戶那就是社會住宅的樣本有1.4萬戶為什麼會是有這樣的一個差距\n422170\t438638\t主計長,最主要就是社會住宅的資料好拿嘛,你私有的一個住宅不好拿嘛,那你怎麼樣來看,就是說現行的一個調查方式沒有辦法反映真實的房租的一個狀況,在你的認知裡頭你怎麼看待這個問題呢?\n440720\t454641\t其實我們一般調查的話如果是在房租調查我們裡面會抽房東四分之一然後房客抽四分之三那一般調查的戶數大概都是有1400戶左右這樣子\n457425\t465978\t這一個部分呢因為如果說你實際訪查的數據有一些會偏低譬如說黃東他會以多報少這樣的一個狀況或者是說沒有辦法真實呈現但是我們在\n471866\t487616\t主計總處他還會去參考一些大數據相關的一個數據來做一個調整那所以並不是說各縣市調查出來的一個數據我們就直接呈現不是我們還會做一些和專家學者去做一個討論然後把相關的一些數據做調整是這樣子是\n490077\t505005\t主計長以你在地方的一個主計處的一個工作經驗是不是可以非常明顯的感受出來就是地方政府他其實在處理主計的一個業務量的人力其實是不夠的\n506782\t535391\t對事實上是這樣子因為統計調查人員的部分呢他是必須要很專業然後有一些必須要有訪問的技巧才能夠真正的訪問一般又有說像家庭收支他涉及到的是一些機密的資料所以他機敏的資料所以你要去問人家你必須要要很好的一個技巧所以他這個統計調查人員都不需要訓練所以他一般平常他都是各縣市我們會有主計處直接直接統計調查人員大概有\n535791\t535951\t臺南市政府\n555902\t566539\t因為以台南市它來講它是兼任統計調查員不是 它統計調查員是有22個那兼任的它大概有40個左右那人口本身\n569682\t598656\t事實啊 健身調查也40個然後他還有一些案件 案資技醜的然後本身我們自己主計處的統計人員也會投入人力是這麼少啦要做的項目這麼多啦還有就是荒華荒華事實上就是說黃東的一個調查室然後還有黃克的一個調查室明顯我跟你講你進去的數據是不對的然後是失準的你出來的答案也是失準的\n599136\t621337\t所以說你要提供給就是那個央行的時候 這樣子就變成非常非常的吃虧了所以我個人持的態度是 菸有頭再有主啦 主計處不應該就是因為通貨膨脹而被責罵這個是央行的責任 不過我倒是想問主計長 你知道那個臺北的蚵仔麵線一萬多少\n624741\t650476\t你一定要去吃啊,你才會知道大碗一碗多少?小碗55元,大碗65元,因為我那天去士林夜市才問過而已我跟你講,你不只在夜市吃,你在一般的商店尤其是西門町你也要去吃這個是非常重要的,應該大碗不會那麼便宜\n651980\t669226\t大碗不會那麼便宜所以就是說你要非常深刻的去體察民意然後對這一個物價指數我跟你講台北什麼都貴啊比我們台南真的是差距太多了我想更細緻更貼切真實的一個CPI的一個數字\n670566\t670726\t賴慧玉議員\n695652\t695672\t賴慈寶\n","txt":"主長早安,很高興在這個地方看到熟悉的主計長,謝謝,歡迎。那我想就針對今天我們在財政委員會的一個質詢,那跟主計長做一個探討。\n這張圖片是CPA的一個數據,可是看起來就是說央行開的這一台車,那你是央行的眼睛,可是如果央行沒有有一個很精準的一個眼睛的話,\n那他的勢力如果不夠好的話 主計處的勢力那他提供給他的一個數據 如果是不夠精準的時候相對的就是說 央行在整體的一個貨幣政策 他可能會失準所以 主計長 你的主計處 非常非常的重要不知道你有沒有同感\n在之前有很多的一個委員一直在告訴你就是說為什麼這個CPI這個通盤這個跟大家就是民眾的一個體感差距那麼大那當然就是說由地方政府呈報上來的主計處他其實是有落差的那為什麼會有落差\n賴慧卿議員\n我們已經就是反映就是這個店家要調整了可是4月份的CPI上漲1.95 遠低於3月份那為什麼會有這樣的一個情形不升緩降呢為什麼我想聽聽主計長你對這一個這個店會的一個看法\n因為事實上電費它是4月才調漲才調漲那這一個部分我們4月份公布的是1.95那所以它會反映在5月份的一個CPI那我們整年預估大概是1.85但是整個一個如果影響率應該是一整年會影響大概約0.024左右那這樣\n加上去的話大概會變成如果說4月到8月的一個影響它會變成如果說用1.85這樣來算再加上影響數應該是0.18左右這樣就會變成2.03就是不會維持原來的1.85是這樣子\n那本身這個你說這個CPI是不是真的能夠真實反映大家的一個通膨的壓力那因為整個CPI他的像數360幾像那這個部分如果因為有一些是屬於比較沒有敏感的有一些是比較敏感的所以大家針對敏感的一個項目他就會影響覺得影響很大但是事實上有一些其實是他會\n李慧琼議員\n主計長其實他的一個看法也是一致的那時候他也知道就是說電價可能是會調漲那怎麼樣讓這一個CBI的數據更貼近民眾的感覺我覺得我們如果從中央\n中央的一個政府是不是可以跟地方縣市政府的統計數據可以就是有一個一致性剛才那個顏委員也講到了他說他臺中基本上他臺中市政府他的一個稅收是比較好的他是好學生那相對的台南市他不是壞學生他是一個窮苦的學生那窮苦的學生他報上去給你的其實我們不見得就是說我們的\n李慧琼議員\n賴慧玉議員\n你是央行的眼睛這個央行他的政策的一個制定對你提供數據來講的話是非常重要的那如果你的訪查眼是明顯不足的時候那該怎麼辦啊那你沒有辦法做出真實性準確性的時候你的QA QC做出來的都是其實跟民眾的差距都是這麼遠的那你看喔我用一個簡單的就是說\n我們黃豬這個黃豬大家有很多委員也一直在提這個問題黃價其實一直漲一直漲可是黃豬的這個指數年增率相對的一個平穩我們從這個數字裡頭去看它那為什麼會是呈現這樣的一個狀況因為你們的訪查員你們是調查黃柯還是那個黃東\n主計長你知道這些訪查員是調查黃東還是黃克黃克黃東都有沒有只有黃東有而已只有黃東有當然也不是兩個都有啦對不起兩個都有可是問題就是說他其實基本上是失準的為什麼\n李慧琼議員\n主計總處在111年的那個報告指出就是黃租的一個指數你私有的住宅樣本才1200戶那就是社會住宅的樣本有1.4萬戶為什麼會是有這樣的一個差距\n主計長,最主要就是社會住宅的資料好拿嘛,你私有的一個住宅不好拿嘛,那你怎麼樣來看,就是說現行的一個調查方式沒有辦法反映真實的房租的一個狀況,在你的認知裡頭你怎麼看待這個問題呢?\n其實我們一般調查的話如果是在房租調查我們裡面會抽房東四分之一然後房客抽四分之三那一般調查的戶數大概都是有1400戶左右這樣子\n這一個部分呢因為如果說你實際訪查的數據有一些會偏低譬如說黃東他會以多報少這樣的一個狀況或者是說沒有辦法真實呈現但是我們在\n主計總處他還會去參考一些大數據相關的一個數據來做一個調整那所以並不是說各縣市調查出來的一個數據我們就直接呈現不是我們還會做一些和專家學者去做一個討論然後把相關的一些數據做調整是這樣子是\n主計長以你在地方的一個主計處的一個工作經驗是不是可以非常明顯的感受出來就是地方政府他其實在處理主計的一個業務量的人力其實是不夠的\n對事實上是這樣子因為統計調查人員的部分呢他是必須要很專業然後有一些必須要有訪問的技巧才能夠真正的訪問一般又有說像家庭收支他涉及到的是一些機密的資料所以他機敏的資料所以你要去問人家你必須要要很好的一個技巧所以他這個統計調查人員都不需要訓練所以他一般平常他都是各縣市我們會有主計處直接直接統計調查人員大概有\n臺南市政府\n因為以台南市它來講它是兼任統計調查員不是 它統計調查員是有22個那兼任的它大概有40個左右那人口本身\n事實啊 健身調查也40個然後他還有一些案件 案資技醜的然後本身我們自己主計處的統計人員也會投入人力是這麼少啦要做的項目這麼多啦還有就是荒華荒華事實上就是說黃東的一個調查室然後還有黃克的一個調查室明顯我跟你講你進去的數據是不對的然後是失準的你出來的答案也是失準的\n所以說你要提供給就是那個央行的時候 這樣子就變成非常非常的吃虧了所以我個人持的態度是 菸有頭再有主啦 主計處不應該就是因為通貨膨脹而被責罵這個是央行的責任 不過我倒是想問主計長 你知道那個臺北的蚵仔麵線一萬多少\n你一定要去吃啊,你才會知道大碗一碗多少?小碗55元,大碗65元,因為我那天去士林夜市才問過而已我跟你講,你不只在夜市吃,你在一般的商店尤其是西門町你也要去吃這個是非常重要的,應該大碗不會那麼便宜\n大碗不會那麼便宜所以就是說你要非常深刻的去體察民意然後對這一個物價指數我跟你講台北什麼都貴啊比我們台南真的是差距太多了我想更細緻更貼切真實的一個CPI的一個數字\n賴慧玉議員\n賴慈寶\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.854 --> 00:17.497\n主 長 早 安 , 很 高 興 在 這 個 地 方 看 到 熟 悉 的 主 計 長 , 謝 謝 , 歡 迎 。 那 我 想 就 針 對 今 天 我 們 在 財 政 委 員 會 的 一 個 質 詢 , 那 跟 主 計 長 做 一 個 探 討 。\n\n00:19.659 --> 00:36.028\n這 張 圖 片 是 C P A 的 一 個 數 據 , 可 是 看 起 來 就 是 說 央 行 開 的 這 一 台 車 , 那 你 是 央 行 的 眼 睛 , 可 是 如 果 央 行 沒 有 有 一 個 很 精 準 的 一 個 眼 睛 的 話 ,\n\n00:36.989 --> 01:01.670\n那 他 的 勢 力 如 果 不 夠 好 的 話 主 計 處 的 勢 力 那 他 提 供 給 他 的 一 個 數 據 如 果 是 不 夠 精 準 的 時 候 相 對 的 就 是 說 央 行 在 整 體 的 一 個 貨 幣 政 策 他 可 能 會 失 準 所 以 主 計 長 你 的 主 計 處 非 常 非 常 的 重 要 不 知 道 你 有 沒 有 同 感\n\n01:06.847 --> 01:28.886\n在 之 前 有 很 多 的 一 個 委 員 一 直 在 告 訴 你 就 是 說 為 什 麼 這 個 C P I 這 個 通 盤 這 個 跟 大 家 就 是 民 眾 的 一 個 體 感 差 距 那 麼 大 那 當 然 就 是 說 由 地 方 政 府 呈 報 上 來 的 主 計 處 他 其 實 是 有 落 差 的 那 為 什 麼 會 有 落 差\n\n01:29.787 --> 01:29.907\n賴 慧 卿 議 員\n\n01:45.302 --> 02:02.169\n我 們 已 經 就 是 反 映 就 是 這 個 店 家 要 調 整 了 可 是 4 月 份 的 C P I 上 漲 1 . 9 5 遠 低 於 3 月 份 那 為 什 麼 會 有 這 樣 的 一 個 情 形 不 升 緩 降 呢 為 什 麼 我 想 聽 聽 主 計 長 你 對 這 一 個 這 個 店 會 的 一 個 看 法\n\n02:05.931 --> 02:28.445\n因 為 事 實 上 電 費 它 是 4 月 才 調 漲 才 調 漲 那 這 一 個 部 分 我 們 4 月 份 公 布 的 是 1 . 9 5 那 所 以 它 會 反 映 在 5 月 份 的 一 個 C P I 那 我 們 整 年 預 估 大 概 是 1 . 8 5 但 是 整 個 一 個 如 果 影 響 率 應 該 是 一 整 年 會 影 響 大 概 約 0 . 0 2 4 左 右 那 這 樣\n\n02:33.428 --> 02:45.719\n加 上 去 的 話 大 概 會 變 成 如 果 說 4 月 到 8 月 的 一 個 影 響 它 會 變 成 如 果 說 用 1 . 8 5 這 樣 來 算 再 加 上 影 響 數 應 該 是 0 . 1 8 左 右 這 樣 就 會 變 成 2 . 0 3 就 是 不 會 維 持 原 來 的 1 . 8 5 是 這 樣 子\n\n02:53.584 --> 03:18.393\n那 本 身 這 個 你 說 這 個 C P I 是 不 是 真 的 能 夠 真 實 反 映 大 家 的 一 個 通 膨 的 壓 力 那 因 為 整 個 C P I 他 的 像 數 3 6 0 幾 像 那 這 個 部 分 如 果 因 為 有 一 些 是 屬 於 比 較 沒 有 敏 感 的 有 一 些 是 比 較 敏 感 的 所 以 大 家 針 對 敏 感 的 一 個 項 目 他 就 會 影 響 覺 得 影 響 很 大 但 是 事 實 上 有 一 些 其 實 是 他 會\n\n03:19.153 --> 03:19.353\n李 慧 琼 議 員\n\n03:39.497 --> 03:49.742\n主 計 長 其 實 他 的 一 個 看 法 也 是 一 致 的 那 時 候 他 也 知 道 就 是 說 電 價 可 能 是 會 調 漲 那 怎 麼 樣 讓 這 一 個 C B I 的 數 據 更 貼 近 民 眾 的 感 覺 我 覺 得 我 們 如 果 從 中 央\n\n03:57.905 --> 04:24.882\n中 央 的 一 個 政 府 是 不 是 可 以 跟 地 方 縣 市 政 府 的 統 計 數 據 可 以 就 是 有 一 個 一 致 性 剛 才 那 個 顏 委 員 也 講 到 了 他 說 他 臺 中 基 本 上 他 臺 中 市 政 府 他 的 一 個 稅 收 是 比 較 好 的 他 是 好 學 生 那 相 對 的 台 南 市 他 不 是 壞 學 生 他 是 一 個 窮 苦 的 學 生 那 窮 苦 的 學 生 他 報 上 去 給 你 的 其 實 我 們 不 見 得 就 是 說 我 們 的\n\n04:25.362 --> 04:25.702\n李 慧 琼 議 員\n\n04:50.390 --> 04:50.530\n賴 慧 玉 議 員\n\n05:13.061 --> 05:39.293\n你 是 央 行 的 眼 睛 這 個 央 行 他 的 政 策 的 一 個 制 定 對 你 提 供 數 據 來 講 的 話 是 非 常 重 要 的 那 如 果 你 的 訪 查 眼 是 明 顯 不 足 的 時 候 那 該 怎 麼 辦 啊 那 你 沒 有 辦 法 做 出 真 實 性 準 確 性 的 時 候 你 的 Q A Q C 做 出 來 的 都 是 其 實 跟 民 眾 的 差 距 都 是 這 麼 遠 的 那 你 看 喔 我 用 一 個 簡 單 的 就 是 說\n\n05:40.293 --> 05:59.441\n我 們 黃 豬 這 個 黃 豬 大 家 有 很 多 委 員 也 一 直 在 提 這 個 問 題 黃 價 其 實 一 直 漲 一 直 漲 可 是 黃 豬 的 這 個 指 數 年 增 率 相 對 的 一 個 平 穩 我 們 從 這 個 數 字 裡 頭 去 看 它 那 為 什 麼 會 是 呈 現 這 樣 的 一 個 狀 況 因 為 你 們 的 訪 查 員 你 們 是 調 查 黃 柯 還 是 那 個 黃 東\n\n06:08.376 --> 06:28.819\n主 計 長 你 知 道 這 些 訪 查 員 是 調 查 黃 東 還 是 黃 克 黃 克 黃 東 都 有 沒 有 只 有 黃 東 有 而 已 只 有 黃 東 有 當 然 也 不 是 兩 個 都 有 啦 對 不 起 兩 個 都 有 可 是 問 題 就 是 說 他 其 實 基 本 上 是 失 準 的 為 什 麼\n\n06:29.580 --> 06:31.383\n李 慧 琼 議 員\n\n06:45.799 --> 06:58.067\n主 計 總 處 在 1 1 1 年 的 那 個 報 告 指 出 就 是 黃 租 的 一 個 指 數 你 私 有 的 住 宅 樣 本 才 1 2 0 0 戶 那 就 是 社 會 住 宅 的 樣 本 有 1 . 4 萬 戶 為 什 麼 會 是 有 這 樣 的 一 個 差 距\n\n07:02.170 --> 07:18.638\n主 計 長 , 最 主 要 就 是 社 會 住 宅 的 資 料 好 拿 嘛 , 你 私 有 的 一 個 住 宅 不 好 拿 嘛 , 那 你 怎 麼 樣 來 看 , 就 是 說 現 行 的 一 個 調 查 方 式 沒 有 辦 法 反 映 真 實 的 房 租 的 一 個 狀 況 , 在 你 的 認 知 裡 頭 你 怎 麼 看 待 這 個 問 題 呢 ?\n\n07:20.720 --> 07:34.641\n其 實 我 們 一 般 調 查 的 話 如 果 是 在 房 租 調 查 我 們 裡 面 會 抽 房 東 四 分 之 一 然 後 房 客 抽 四 分 之 三 那 一 般 調 查 的 戶 數 大 概 都 是 有 1 4 0 0 戶 左 右 這 樣 子\n\n07:37.425 --> 07:45.978\n這 一 個 部 分 呢 因 為 如 果 說 你 實 際 訪 查 的 數 據 有 一 些 會 偏 低 譬 如 說 黃 東 他 會 以 多 報 少 這 樣 的 一 個 狀 況 或 者 是 說 沒 有 辦 法 真 實 呈 現 但 是 我 們 在\n\n07:51.866 --> 08:07.616\n主 計 總 處 他 還 會 去 參 考 一 些 大 數 據 相 關 的 一 個 數 據 來 做 一 個 調 整 那 所 以 並 不 是 說 各 縣 市 調 查 出 來 的 一 個 數 據 我 們 就 直 接 呈 現 不 是 我 們 還 會 做 一 些 和 專 家 學 者 去 做 一 個 討 論 然 後 把 相 關 的 一 些 數 據 做 調 整 是 這 樣 子 是\n\n08:10.077 --> 08:25.005\n主 計 長 以 你 在 地 方 的 一 個 主 計 處 的 一 個 工 作 經 驗 是 不 是 可 以 非 常 明 顯 的 感 受 出 來 就 是 地 方 政 府 他 其 實 在 處 理 主 計 的 一 個 業 務 量 的 人 力 其 實 是 不 夠 的\n\n08:26.782 --> 08:55.391\n對 事 實 上 是 這 樣 子 因 為 統 計 調 查 人 員 的 部 分 呢 他 是 必 須 要 很 專 業 然 後 有 一 些 必 須 要 有 訪 問 的 技 巧 才 能 夠 真 正 的 訪 問 一 般 又 有 說 像 家 庭 收 支 他 涉 及 到 的 是 一 些 機 密 的 資 料 所 以 他 機 敏 的 資 料 所 以 你 要 去 問 人 家 你 必 須 要 要 很 好 的 一 個 技 巧 所 以 他 這 個 統 計 調 查 人 員 都 不 需 要 訓 練 所 以 他 一 般 平 常 他 都 是 各 縣 市 我 們 會 有 主 計 處 直 接 直 接 統 計 調 查 人 員 大 概 有\n\n08:55.791 --> 08:55.951\n臺 南 市 政 府\n\n09:15.902 --> 09:26.539\n因 為 以 台 南 市 它 來 講 它 是 兼 任 統 計 調 查 員 不 是 它 統 計 調 查 員 是 有 2 2 個 那 兼 任 的 它 大 概 有 4 0 個 左 右 那 人 口 本 身\n\n09:29.682 --> 09:58.656\n事 實 啊 健 身 調 查 也 4 0 個 然 後 他 還 有 一 些 案 件 案 資 技 醜 的 然 後 本 身 我 們 自 己 主 計 處 的 統 計 人 員 也 會 投 入 人 力 是 這 麼 少 啦 要 做 的 項 目 這 麼 多 啦 還 有 就 是 荒 華 荒 華 事 實 上 就 是 說 黃 東 的 一 個 調 查 室 然 後 還 有 黃 克 的 一 個 調 查 室 明 顯 我 跟 你 講 你 進 去 的 數 據 是 不 對 的 然 後 是 失 準 的 你 出 來 的 答 案 也 是 失 準 的\n\n09:59.136 --> 10:21.337\n所 以 說 你 要 提 供 給 就 是 那 個 央 行 的 時 候 這 樣 子 就 變 成 非 常 非 常 的 吃 虧 了 所 以 我 個 人 持 的 態 度 是 菸 有 頭 再 有 主 啦 主 計 處 不 應 該 就 是 因 為 通 貨 膨 脹 而 被 責 罵 這 個 是 央 行 的 責 任 不 過 我 倒 是 想 問 主 計 長 你 知 道 那 個 臺 北 的 蚵 仔 麵 線 一 萬 多 少\n\n10:24.741 --> 10:50.476\n你 一 定 要 去 吃 啊 , 你 才 會 知 道 大 碗 一 碗 多 少 ? 小 碗 5 5 元 , 大 碗 6 5 元 , 因 為 我 那 天 去 士 林 夜 市 才 問 過 而 已 我 跟 你 講 , 你 不 只 在 夜 市 吃 , 你 在 一 般 的 商 店 尤 其 是 西 門 町 你 也 要 去 吃 這 個 是 非 常 重 要 的 , 應 該 大 碗 不 會 那 麼 便 宜\n\n10:51.980 --> 11:09.226\n大 碗 不 會 那 麼 便 宜 所 以 就 是 說 你 要 非 常 深 刻 的 去 體 察 民 意 然 後 對 這 一 個 物 價 指 數 我 跟 你 講 台 北 什 麼 都 貴 啊 比 我 們 台 南 真 的 是 差 距 太 多 了 我 想 更 細 緻 更 貼 切 真 實 的 一 個 C P I 的 一 個 數 字\n\n11:10.566 --> 11:10.726\n賴 慧 玉 議 員\n\n11:35.652 --> 11:35.672\n賴 慈 寶\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.854,"end":17.497,"text":"主長早安,很高興在這個地方看到熟悉的主計長,謝謝,歡迎。那我想就針對今天我們在財政委員會的一個質詢,那跟主計長做一個探討。"},{"start":19.659,"end":36.028,"text":"這張圖片是CPA的一個數據,可是看起來就是說央行開的這一台車,那你是央行的眼睛,可是如果央行沒有有一個很精準的一個眼睛的話,"},{"start":36.989,"end":61.67,"text":"那他的勢力如果不夠好的話 主計處的勢力那他提供給他的一個數據 如果是不夠精準的時候相對的就是說 央行在整體的一個貨幣政策 他可能會失準所以 主計長 你的主計處 非常非常的重要不知道你有沒有同感"},{"start":66.847,"end":88.886,"text":"在之前有很多的一個委員一直在告訴你就是說為什麼這個CPI這個通盤這個跟大家就是民眾的一個體感差距那麼大那當然就是說由地方政府呈報上來的主計處他其實是有落差的那為什麼會有落差"},{"start":89.787,"end":89.907,"text":"賴慧卿議員"},{"start":105.302,"end":122.169,"text":"我們已經就是反映就是這個店家要調整了可是4月份的CPI上漲1.95 遠低於3月份那為什麼會有這樣的一個情形不升緩降呢為什麼我想聽聽主計長你對這一個這個店會的一個看法"},{"start":125.931,"end":148.445,"text":"因為事實上電費它是4月才調漲才調漲那這一個部分我們4月份公布的是1.95那所以它會反映在5月份的一個CPI那我們整年預估大概是1.85但是整個一個如果影響率應該是一整年會影響大概約0.024左右那這樣"},{"start":153.428,"end":165.719,"text":"加上去的話大概會變成如果說4月到8月的一個影響它會變成如果說用1.85這樣來算再加上影響數應該是0.18左右這樣就會變成2.03就是不會維持原來的1.85是這樣子"},{"start":173.584,"end":198.393,"text":"那本身這個你說這個CPI是不是真的能夠真實反映大家的一個通膨的壓力那因為整個CPI他的像數360幾像那這個部分如果因為有一些是屬於比較沒有敏感的有一些是比較敏感的所以大家針對敏感的一個項目他就會影響覺得影響很大但是事實上有一些其實是他會"},{"start":199.153,"end":199.353,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":219.497,"end":229.742,"text":"主計長其實他的一個看法也是一致的那時候他也知道就是說電價可能是會調漲那怎麼樣讓這一個CBI的數據更貼近民眾的感覺我覺得我們如果從中央"},{"start":237.905,"end":264.882,"text":"中央的一個政府是不是可以跟地方縣市政府的統計數據可以就是有一個一致性剛才那個顏委員也講到了他說他臺中基本上他臺中市政府他的一個稅收是比較好的他是好學生那相對的台南市他不是壞學生他是一個窮苦的學生那窮苦的學生他報上去給你的其實我們不見得就是說我們的"},{"start":265.362,"end":265.702,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":290.39,"end":290.53,"text":"賴慧玉議員"},{"start":313.061,"end":339.293,"text":"你是央行的眼睛這個央行他的政策的一個制定對你提供數據來講的話是非常重要的那如果你的訪查眼是明顯不足的時候那該怎麼辦啊那你沒有辦法做出真實性準確性的時候你的QA QC做出來的都是其實跟民眾的差距都是這麼遠的那你看喔我用一個簡單的就是說"},{"start":340.293,"end":359.441,"text":"我們黃豬這個黃豬大家有很多委員也一直在提這個問題黃價其實一直漲一直漲可是黃豬的這個指數年增率相對的一個平穩我們從這個數字裡頭去看它那為什麼會是呈現這樣的一個狀況因為你們的訪查員你們是調查黃柯還是那個黃東"},{"start":368.376,"end":388.819,"text":"主計長你知道這些訪查員是調查黃東還是黃克黃克黃東都有沒有只有黃東有而已只有黃東有當然也不是兩個都有啦對不起兩個都有可是問題就是說他其實基本上是失準的為什麼"},{"start":389.58,"end":391.383,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":405.799,"end":418.067,"text":"主計總處在111年的那個報告指出就是黃租的一個指數你私有的住宅樣本才1200戶那就是社會住宅的樣本有1.4萬戶為什麼會是有這樣的一個差距"},{"start":422.17,"end":438.638,"text":"主計長,最主要就是社會住宅的資料好拿嘛,你私有的一個住宅不好拿嘛,那你怎麼樣來看,就是說現行的一個調查方式沒有辦法反映真實的房租的一個狀況,在你的認知裡頭你怎麼看待這個問題呢?"},{"start":440.72,"end":454.641,"text":"其實我們一般調查的話如果是在房租調查我們裡面會抽房東四分之一然後房客抽四分之三那一般調查的戶數大概都是有1400戶左右這樣子"},{"start":457.425,"end":465.978,"text":"這一個部分呢因為如果說你實際訪查的數據有一些會偏低譬如說黃東他會以多報少這樣的一個狀況或者是說沒有辦法真實呈現但是我們在"},{"start":471.866,"end":487.616,"text":"主計總處他還會去參考一些大數據相關的一個數據來做一個調整那所以並不是說各縣市調查出來的一個數據我們就直接呈現不是我們還會做一些和專家學者去做一個討論然後把相關的一些數據做調整是這樣子是"},{"start":490.077,"end":505.005,"text":"主計長以你在地方的一個主計處的一個工作經驗是不是可以非常明顯的感受出來就是地方政府他其實在處理主計的一個業務量的人力其實是不夠的"},{"start":506.782,"end":535.391,"text":"對事實上是這樣子因為統計調查人員的部分呢他是必須要很專業然後有一些必須要有訪問的技巧才能夠真正的訪問一般又有說像家庭收支他涉及到的是一些機密的資料所以他機敏的資料所以你要去問人家你必須要要很好的一個技巧所以他這個統計調查人員都不需要訓練所以他一般平常他都是各縣市我們會有主計處直接直接統計調查人員大概有"},{"start":535.791,"end":535.951,"text":"臺南市政府"},{"start":555.902,"end":566.539,"text":"因為以台南市它來講它是兼任統計調查員不是 它統計調查員是有22個那兼任的它大概有40個左右那人口本身"},{"start":569.682,"end":598.656,"text":"事實啊 健身調查也40個然後他還有一些案件 案資技醜的然後本身我們自己主計處的統計人員也會投入人力是這麼少啦要做的項目這麼多啦還有就是荒華荒華事實上就是說黃東的一個調查室然後還有黃克的一個調查室明顯我跟你講你進去的數據是不對的然後是失準的你出來的答案也是失準的"},{"start":599.136,"end":621.337,"text":"所以說你要提供給就是那個央行的時候 這樣子就變成非常非常的吃虧了所以我個人持的態度是 菸有頭再有主啦 主計處不應該就是因為通貨膨脹而被責罵這個是央行的責任 不過我倒是想問主計長 你知道那個臺北的蚵仔麵線一萬多少"},{"start":624.741,"end":650.476,"text":"你一定要去吃啊,你才會知道大碗一碗多少?小碗55元,大碗65元,因為我那天去士林夜市才問過而已我跟你講,你不只在夜市吃,你在一般的商店尤其是西門町你也要去吃這個是非常重要的,應該大碗不會那麼便宜"},{"start":651.98,"end":669.226,"text":"大碗不會那麼便宜所以就是說你要非常深刻的去體察民意然後對這一個物價指數我跟你講台北什麼都貴啊比我們台南真的是差距太多了我想更細緻更貼切真實的一個CPI的一個數字"},{"start":670.566,"end":670.726,"text":"賴慧玉議員"},{"start":695.652,"end":695.672,"text":"賴慈寶"}]}}}}