{"id":153209,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153209","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331b643316598657d6c74cb636d3605ada8333bc5d453e1b195827427d4595633545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:23:07 - 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637.731, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 639.212, \"end\": 639.332, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 639.332, \"end\": 639.352, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"茵\", \"start\": 639.352, \"end\": 639.372, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 659.821, \"end\": 659.941, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"辛\", \"start\": 659.941, \"end\": 660.021, \"score\": 0.518}, {\"word\": \"苦\", \"start\": 660.021, \"end\": 660.041, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"en\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,097 --> 00:00:07,883\n謝 謝 主 席 主 席 有 請 我 們 蔡 局 長 跟 田 政 次 請 蔡 局 長 還 有 田 政 次 謝 謝 主 席 林 委 員 好\n\n2\n00:00:15,936 --> 00:00:29,274\n局 長 跟 政 次 這 個 問 題 是 不 知 道 兩 位 有 沒 有 看 到 有 一 個 即 時 新 聞 是 昨 天 的 時 候 發 出 來 的 就 是 出 席 賴 總 統 的 就 職 活 動 澳 洲 有 多 名 的 議 員 在\n\n3\n00:00:30,996 --> 00:00:52,464\n回 到 他 們 的 這 個 辦 公 室 之 後 發 現 就 收 到 了 中 國 的 代 表 處 寄 出 了 這 個 所 謂 恐 嚇 信 件 要 求 他 們 要 遵 守 一 中 原 則 之 外 呢 我 們 可 以 感 受 到 的 是 中 國 戰 狼 式 的 手 段 似 乎 在 5 2 0 的 最 近 動 作 頻 頻 首 先 我 是 不 是 先 請 田 政 次 好 了 政 次 有 收 到 這 個 訊 息 嗎\n\n4\n00:00:55,700 --> 00:01:24,282\n我 們 在 整 個 統 計 這 個 5 2 0 的 外 賓 來 的 時 候 確 實 中 國 用 盡 了 很 多 的 方 法 我 跟 委 員 報 告 不 僅 澳 洲 不 僅 澳 洲 那 麼 其 他 的 部 分 可 能 不 方 便 說 我 可 以 跟 你 私 下 報 告 不 僅 澳 洲 的 議 員 接 受 其 他 有 相 當 多 的 國 家 受 到 相 當 嚴 厲 的 說 明 要 阻 止 他 們 前 來\n\n5\n00:01:25,123 --> 00:01:42,498\n好 那 麼 我 們 的 包 括 除 了 這 個 得 知 訊 息 之 外 有 沒 有 什 麼 其 他 的 作 為 又 或 者 是 這 個 會 不 會 影 響 到 5 2 0 之 後 的 相 關 的 有 關 於 國 際 上 面 的 局 勢 政 策 怎 麼 研 判 在 能 夠 說 的 範 圍 底 下 可 不 可 以 讓 我 們 了 解 一 下\n\n6\n00:01:43,747 --> 00:01:58,865\n這 一 次 來 的 外 賓 來 了 以 後 其 實 對 台 灣 的 民 主 化 更 有 更 深 刻 的 影 響 他 們 會 覺 得 這 些 所 謂 中 國 用 戰 狼 式 的 威 脅 其 實 是 在 民 主 國 家 是 不 起 作 用 的\n\n7\n00:01:59,005 --> 00:02:18,131\n好 言 下 之 意 這 會 不 會 影 響 到 說 接 下 來 他 們 在 更 台 面 上 面 的 交 流 會 受 到 相 關 的 遏 止 又 或 者 是 說 其 實 影 響 性 不 大 接 下 來 的 其 他 的 我 們 相 關 我 們 知 道 接 下 來 可 能 更 大 的 就 是 有 關 於 國 慶 的 部 分 那 也 是 剩 下 半 年 不 到 的 時 間 那 這 些 都 會 受 到 影 響 嗎\n\n8\n00:02:20,031 --> 00:02:47,496\n這 個 也 是 他 們 其 中 的 一 個 方 法 我 們 除 了 國 慶 還 有 其 他 的 比 如 說 它 的 偉 慶 也 是 要 用 這 個 機 會 來 怎 麼 樣 來 打 擊 我 們 在 國 際 間 的 一 些 力 道 所 以 您 說 的 除 了 澳 洲 之 外 那 麼 整 個 我 們 這 一 次 出 席 的 國 家 當 中 歐 洲 、 亞 洲 那 麼 加 起 來 幾 乎 都 有 受 到 不 同 等 級 的 威 脅 那 各 自 的 威 脅 是 什 麼 樣 的 樣 態\n\n9\n00:02:49,589 --> 00:03:18,026\n他 有 些 是 透 過 剛 才 您 說 的 寫 信 有 些 是 透 過 當 地 政 府 的 解 嚴 重 警 告 你 不 可 以 去 等 等 樣 態 非 常 多 當 然 有 些 用 利 誘 的 方 式 都 有 我 可 以 找 個 時 間 到 委 員 那 裡 做 一 個 比 較 詳 盡 的 報 告 好 謝 謝 政 次 那 我 要 就 問 的 就 是 有 請 蔡 局 長 了 其 實 我 們 知 道 這 個 中 國 的 戰 狼 的 手 段 跟 威 嚇 的 方 式 包 括 剛 剛 前 面 幾 位 委 員 提 到 的 這 個 聯 合 軍 演 等 等 都 是 一 種 樣 態\n\n10\n00:03:19,167 --> 00:03:37,786\n那 麼 在 5 2 0 之 後 對 於 國 安 局 來 講 怎 麼 樣 在 外 交 上 面 或 是 國 防 當 中 能 夠 守 住 我 們 現 在 現 有 的 這 種 外 交 上 面 的 合 作 的 方 式 國 安 局 有 一 些 方 法 跟 應 對 的 處 理 方 式 嗎 或 是 怎 麼 樣 跟 外 交 部 來 做 合 作 跟 國 防 部 來 做 合 作\n\n11\n00:03:38,826 --> 00:03:55,093\n雖 然 我 們 現 在 面 臨 到 中 共 的 脅 迫 有 比 較 升 高 的 一 個 趨 勢 但 是 從 另 外 一 個 角 度 來 講 他 有 提 供 我 們 跟 國 際 社 會 友 盟 合 作 非 常 好 的 機 會 也 就 是 說 國 際 社 會 友 盟 他 會 非 常 關 注 中 共 在 台 海 地 區 軍 事 活 動 動 態\n\n12\n00:03:55,973 --> 00:04:12,200\n那 台 灣 在 這 部 分 的 情 報 掌 聲 能 力 算 相 當 的 不 錯 那 我 們 就 可 以 跟 國 際 友 盟 來 分 享 這 方 面 的 資 訊 以 及 中 共 在 台 海 周 邊 水 域 我 們 剛 剛 也 提 到 海 上 灰 色 地 帶 的 操 作 那 這 些 海 上 灰 色 地 帶 的 操 作 動 員 到 海 警 船 或 公 務 船 進 行 這 種 執 法 巡 查\n\n13\n00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:34,695\n在 東 海 水 域 日 本 很 關 注 在 南 海 水 域 左 邊 國 家 也 很 關 注 所 以 這 部 分 我 們 也 會 來 加 強 跟 相 關 國 家 的 一 個 合 作 那 另 外 有 一 個 重 點 是 在 中 共 的 軍 人 過 程 當 中 也 會 對 我 們 的 民 主 開 放 的 社 會 來 進 行 所 謂 的 認 知 作 戰 操 作 這 種 假 訊 息 那 剛 剛 我 想 在 外 交 部 的 書 面 報 告 當 中 也 提 到 了 今 年 因 為 已 經 或 後 續 還 有 7 0 個 國 家 要 進 行\n\n14\n00:04:36,636 --> 00:04:39,638\n我 相 信 國 安 局 所 掌 握 的 就 是 這 些 情 資 包 括 剛 剛 我 會 特 別 問 田 政 司 的 部 分 就 是 這 些 情 資 的 研 判 跟 分 析 的 過 程 當 中 這 個 防 範 與 未 然 是 非 常 重 要 的\n\n15\n00:05:04,617 --> 00:05:11,023\n當 中 國 的 戰 狼 在 外 交 上 面 給 予 許 多 給 我 們 台 灣 不 只 是 給 我 們 台 灣 穿 腳 鞋 之 外 威 脅 我 們 的 邦 交 國 或 者 是 友 邦 這 些 民 意 代 表 的 時 候 其 實 這 樣 的 情 資 的 訊 息 的 給 予 是 非 常 重 要 的 但 是 我 們 也 知 道 從 昨 天 我 們 立 法 院 通 過 了 這 個 職 權 刑 事 法 2 5 條 之 後 這 是 原 本 的 法 規 原 本 的 法 規 是 認 為 可 以 避 開 國 防 、 外 交\n\n16\n00:05:31,420 --> 00:05:50,214\n如 果 說 有 危 害 那 可 以 遵 守 秘 密 但 是 新 修 訂 的 法 令 變 成 是 經 主 席 同 意 本 席 其 實 想 要 提 出 來 的 是 接 下 來 什 麼 是 秘 密 或 不 是 秘 密 恐 怕 就 還 有 另 外 的 包 括 今 天 我 們 國 防 外 交 委 員 會 的 會 議 主 席 都 可 以 來 做 決 定\n\n17\n00:05:51,195 --> 00:06:11,481\n但 是 我 記 得 我 曾 經 在 這 裡 也 詢 問 過 了 包 括 我 們 的 各 個 行 政 機 關 的 文 件 的 密 等 是 由 主 官 可 以 來 做 認 定 那 麼 這 個 就 會 產 生 未 來 這 個 法 令 如 果 真 的 要 執 行 的 時 候 那 麼 密 等 的 密 之 間 包 括 國 安 局 這 裡 怎 麼 樣 來 決 定 這 個 密 能 不 能 說 不 說 那 就 是 藐 視 國 會\n\n18\n00:06:17,022 --> 00:06:43,050\n說 了 那 就 違 反 國 家 機 密 相 關 的 保 護 我 先 提 醒 我 沒 有 要 這 個 局 長 一 定 非 回 答 不 可 但 是 這 是 一 個 包 括 國 安 局 在 內 必 須 現 在 跟 國 安 會 跟 國 防 部 跟 外 交 部 必 須 要 來 審 慎 討 論 到 底 這 個 密 要 怎 麼 辦 怎 麼 做 決 定 尤 其 是 如 果 說 就 像 剛 剛 我 舉 的 那 個 例 子 我 們 如 果 先 收 到 了 情 資 我 們 知 道\n\n19\n00:06:45,251 --> 00:07:00,567\n在 5 2 0 或 是 重 要 包 括 未 來 1 0 月 1 0 號 的 國 慶 的 時 候 我 們 知 道 中 國 的 戰 狼 又 有 新 的 動 作 的 時 候 那 這 樣 的 機 密 是 要 在 立 法 院 做 揭 露 嗎 還 是 必 須 在 主 席 的 同 意 之 下\n\n20\n00:07:01,918 --> 00:07:15,295\n為 了 國 家 的 安 全 即 使 主 席 要 你 說 你 也 不 能 說 這 個 兩 者 之 間 有 沒 有 啟 動 相 關 的 跨 部 會 的 討 論 跟 因 應 好 , 謝 謝 委 員 提 醒 這 件 事 情 剛 剛 那 個 陳 冠 廷 委 員 也 在 關 切 這 個 問 題 那 就 國 家 機 密 保 護 法 來 講 的 話\n\n21\n00:07:18,479 --> 00:07:45,972\n當 然 對 於 絕 對 機 密 及 機 密 跟 機 密 的 核 定 有 它 一 定 的 授 權 的 程 序 就 本 局 來 講 大 概 就 有 首 長 有 我 本 人 來 進 行 相 關 的 核 定 那 因 為 我 們 在 行 政 部 門 對 於 機 密 的 核 等 有 我 們 的 作 業 規 範 那 現 在 就 是 對 於 立 法 院 這 邊 在 立 委 職 權 行 事 法 修 正 之 後 怎 麼 樣 來 取 得 彼 此 對 於 機 密 認 定 的 一 個 標 準 那 這 涉 及 到 作 業 的 部 分 那 所 以 在 法 規 以 外 在 作 業 的 部 分 我 們 會 再 跟 大 院 這 邊 來 密 切 的 溝 通 特 別 是 昭 緯 這 邊 來 討 論\n\n22\n00:07:47,073 --> 00:08:04,442\n好 接 下 來 當 然 我 要 詢 問 的 就 是 有 關 於 訊 息 的 部 分 了 最 近 有 一 陣 子 已 經 沉 寂 的 所 謂 內 容 農 場 的 臉 書 粉 絲 團 又 開 始 出 現 而 且 現 在 有 許 多 的 學 者 提 醒 這 些 名 為 在 地 粉 絲 團 但 是 經 營 的 不 是 台 灣 人\n\n23\n00:08:05,714 --> 00:08:21,894\n那 我 不 知 道 國 安 局 有 沒 有 發 現 這 樣 的 狀 況 而 這 樣 的 粉 絲 團 的 存 在 是 為 什 麼 而 且 這 樣 的 粉 絲 團 喔 他 基 本 上 呢 你 會 發 現 喔 他 寫 的 是 我 們 周 圍 旅 行 啦 然 後 美 景 啦 然 後 但 是 他 居 然 可 以 P O 出 一 樣 或 類 似 的 照 片\n\n24\n00:08:23,462 --> 00:08:38,367\n那 這 個 狀 況 到 底 它 的 存 在 的 目 的 為 何 ? 而 國 安 局 有 沒 有 掌 握 到 相 關 的 形 式 ? 因 為 這 樣 的 帶 風 向 的 背 後 有 沒 有 國 安 疑 慮 ? 這 我 們 一 直 有 專 任 在 關 注 因 為 社 群 媒 體 上 現 在 主 要 的 平 台 特 別 要 注 意 的 一 個 是 臉 書 一 個 是 Y o u T u b e\n\n25\n00:08:40,288 --> 00:09:02,360\n那 在 這 些 平 台 上 面 有 一 些 的 有 問 題 的 帳 號 這 種 所 謂 的 有 問 題 的 帳 號 它 可 能 平 時 所 張 貼 的 貼 文 都 是 風 花 雪 月 可 是 到 了 一 個 特 別 的 政 治 時 刻 或 軍 演 的 時 刻 它 開 始 轉 貼 各 種 替 對 岸 來 做 文 宣 或 正 義 訊 息 散 播 的 一 個 平 台 或 帳 號 那 我 們 會 透 過 我 們 的 一 些 大 數 據 還 有 A I 的 技 術 來 針 對 這 些 有 問 題 的 帳 號 來 做 追 蹤 那 有 一 些 帳 號 它 假 如 是 違 反 到\n\n26\n00:09:09,143 --> 00:09:34,131\n社 群 平 台 管 理 的 規 則 的 話 那 我 們 會 請 社 群 平 台 的 管 理 者 把 這 些 有 問 題 的 帳 號 來 移 除 所 以 這 部 分 我 們 也 會 去 比 對 這 些 帳 號 它 所 貼 的 這 些 貼 文 有 的 是 不 斷 的 透 過 A I 重 複 的 複 製 在 進 行 散 播 那 這 部 分 假 如 有 這 樣 的 現 象 的 話 一 般 來 跟 社 群 媒 體 的 平 台 進 行 檢 舉 的 話 都 會 下 架 我 記 得 在 去 年 的 上 半 年 光 Y o u T u b e 有 一 個 特 定 集 團 的\n\n27\n00:09:35,691 --> 00:09:36,633\n所 以 就 像 我 剛 剛 特 別 提 到 的 這 種 同 樣 一 個\n\n28\n00:09:44,599 --> 00:09:48,401\n在 選 舉 期 間 也 曾 經 有 相 關 的 一 個 社 群 媒 體 平 台 在 散 佈 錯 假 的 影 音 訊 息 講 的 是 蔡 前 總 統 他 的 學 位 的 問 題 或 家 族 的 弊 案 的 問 題\n\n29\n00:10:10,393 --> 00:10:37,731\n那 這 個 在 3 個 小 時 、 4 個 小 時 之 內 就 傳 散 到 各 個 地 方 去 甚 至 翻 譯 成 2 0 幾 種 語 言 那 我 們 後 來 是 透 過 檢 舉 的 方 式 在 不 到 1 7 、 8 個 小 時 之 內 全 部 下 架 好 那 麼 對 於 像 這 樣 的 相 關 的 訊 息 包 括 連 現 在 A I 的 進 入 有 機 會 我 再 跟 您 來 做 討 論 但 是 我 要 提 醒 的 另 外 一 個 是 當 你 們 做 了 這 樣 相 關 的 下 架 之 後 因 為 這 樣 的 錯 假 訊 息 其 實 它 要 擾 動 的 是 台 灣 的 民 心 甚 至 於 要 營 造\n\n30\n00:10:39,212 --> 00:10:39,372\n林 楚 茵\n\n31\n00:10:59,821 --> 00:11:00,041\n好 , 謝 謝 辛 苦\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1097\t7883\t謝謝主席 主席有請我們蔡局長跟田政次請蔡局長還有田政次謝謝主席 林委員好\n15936\t29274\t局長跟政次這個問題是不知道兩位有沒有看到有一個即時新聞是昨天的時候發出來的就是出席賴總統的就職活動澳洲有多名的議員在\n30996\t52464\t回到他們的這個辦公室之後發現就收到了中國的代表處寄出了這個所謂恐嚇信件要求他們要遵守一中原則之外呢我們可以感受到的是中國戰狼式的手段似乎在520的最近動作頻頻首先我是不是先請田政次好了政次有收到這個訊息嗎\n55700\t84282\t我們在整個統計這個520的外賓來的時候確實中國用盡了很多的方法我跟委員報告不僅澳洲不僅澳洲那麼其他的部分可能不方便說我可以跟你私下報告不僅澳洲的議員接受其他有相當多的國家受到相當嚴厲的說明要阻止他們前來\n85123\t102498\t好 那麼我們的包括除了這個得知訊息之外有沒有什麼其他的作為又或者是這個會不會影響到520之後的相關的有關於國際上面的局勢政策怎麼研判在能夠說的範圍底下可不可以讓我們了解一下\n103747\t118865\t這一次來的外賓來了以後其實對台灣的民主化更有更深刻的影響他們會覺得這些所謂中國用戰狼式的威脅其實是在民主國家是不起作用的\n119005\t138131\t好 言下之意這會不會影響到說接下來他們在更台面上面的交流會受到相關的遏止又或者是說其實影響性不大接下來的其他的我們相關我們知道接下來可能更大的就是有關於國慶的部分那也是剩下半年不到的時間那這些都會受到影響嗎\n140031\t167496\t這個也是他們其中的一個方法我們除了國慶還有其他的比如說它的偉慶也是要用這個機會來怎麼樣來打擊我們在國際間的一些力道所以您說的除了澳洲之外那麼整個我們這一次出席的國家當中歐洲、亞洲那麼加起來幾乎都有受到不同等級的威脅那各自的威脅是什麼樣的樣態\n169589\t198026\t他有些是透過剛才您說的寫信有些是透過當地政府的解嚴重警告你不可以去等等樣態非常多當然有些用利誘的方式都有我可以找個時間到委員那裡做一個比較詳盡的報告好 謝謝政次那我要就問的就是有請蔡局長了其實我們知道這個中國的戰狼的手段跟威嚇的方式包括剛剛前面幾位委員提到的這個聯合軍演等等都是一種樣態\n199167\t217786\t那麼在520之後對於國安局來講怎麼樣在外交上面或是國防當中能夠守住我們現在現有的這種外交上面的合作的方式國安局有一些方法跟應對的處理方式嗎或是怎麼樣跟外交部來做合作跟國防部來做合作\n218826\t235093\t雖然我們現在面臨到中共的脅迫有比較升高的一個趨勢但是從另外一個角度來講他有提供我們跟國際社會友盟合作非常好的機會也就是說國際社會友盟他會非常關注中共在台海地區軍事活動動態\n235973\t252200\t那台灣在這部分的情報掌聲能力算相當的不錯那我們就可以跟國際友盟來分享這方面的資訊以及中共在台海周邊水域我們剛剛也提到海上灰色地帶的操作那這些海上灰色地帶的操作動員到海警船或公務船進行這種執法巡查\n252760\t274695\t在東海水域日本很關注在南海水域左邊國家也很關注所以這部分我們也會來加強跟相關國家的一個合作那另外有一個重點是在中共的軍人過程當中也會對我們的民主開放的社會來進行所謂的認知作戰操作這種假訊息那剛剛我想在外交部的書面報告當中也提到了今年因為已經或後續還有70個國家要進行\n276636\t279638\t我相信國安局所掌握的就是這些情資包括剛剛我會特別問田政司的部分就是這些情資的研判跟分析的過程當中這個防範與未然是非常重要的\n304617\t311023\t當中國的戰狼在外交上面給予許多給我們台灣不只是給我們台灣穿腳鞋之外威脅我們的邦交國或者是友邦這些民意代表的時候其實這樣的情資的訊息的給予是非常重要的但是我們也知道從昨天我們立法院通過了這個職權刑事法25條之後這是原本的法規原本的法規是認為可以避開國防、外交\n331420\t350214\t如果說有危害那可以遵守秘密但是新修訂的法令變成是經主席同意本席其實想要提出來的是接下來什麼是秘密或不是秘密恐怕就還有另外的包括今天我們國防外交委員會的會議主席都可以來做決定\n351195\t371481\t但是我記得我曾經在這裡也詢問過了包括我們的各個行政機關的文件的密等是由主官可以來做認定那麼這個就會產生未來這個法令如果真的要執行的時候那麼密等的密之間包括國安局這裡怎麼樣來決定這個密能不能說不說那就是藐視國會\n377022\t403050\t說了那就違反國家機密相關的保護我先提醒我沒有要這個局長一定非回答不可但是這是一個包括國安局在內必須現在跟國安會跟國防部跟外交部必須要來審慎討論到底這個密要怎麼辦怎麼做決定尤其是如果說就像剛剛我舉的那個例子我們如果先收到了情資我們知道\n405251\t420567\t在520或是重要包括未來10月10號的國慶的時候我們知道中國的戰狼又有新的動作的時候那這樣的機密是要在立法院做揭露嗎還是必須在主席的同意之下\n421918\t435295\t為了國家的安全即使主席要你說你也不能說這個兩者之間有沒有啟動相關的跨部會的討論跟因應好,謝謝委員提醒這件事情剛剛那個陳冠廷委員也在關切這個問題那就國家機密保護法來講的話\n438479\t465972\t當然對於絕對機密及機密跟機密的核定有它一定的授權的程序就本局來講大概就有首長有我本人來進行相關的核定那因為我們在行政部門對於機密的核等有我們的作業規範那現在就是對於立法院這邊在立委職權行事法修正之後怎麼樣來取得彼此對於機密認定的一個標準那這涉及到作業的部分那所以在法規以外在作業的部分我們會再跟大院這邊來密切的溝通特別是昭緯這邊來討論\n467073\t484442\t好接下來當然我要詢問的就是有關於訊息的部分了最近有一陣子已經沉寂的所謂內容農場的臉書粉絲團又開始出現而且現在有許多的學者提醒這些名為在地粉絲團但是經營的不是台灣人\n485714\t501894\t那我不知道國安局有沒有發現這樣的狀況而這樣的粉絲團的存在是為什麼而且這樣的粉絲團喔他基本上呢你會發現喔他寫的是我們周圍旅行啦然後美景啦然後但是他居然可以PO出一樣或類似的照片\n503462\t518367\t那這個狀況到底它的存在的目的為何?而國安局有沒有掌握到相關的形式?因為這樣的帶風向的背後有沒有國安疑慮?這我們一直有專任在關注因為社群媒體上現在主要的平台特別要注意的一個是臉書一個是YouTube\n520288\t542360\t那在這些平台上面有一些的有問題的帳號這種所謂的有問題的帳號它可能平時所張貼的貼文都是風花雪月可是到了一個特別的政治時刻或軍演的時刻它開始轉貼各種替對岸來做文宣或正義訊息散播的一個平台或帳號那我們會透過我們的一些大數據還有AI的技術來針對這些有問題的帳號來做追蹤那有一些帳號它假如是違反到\n549143\t574131\t社群平台管理的規則的話那我們會請社群平台的管理者把這些有問題的帳號來移除所以這部分我們也會去比對這些帳號它所貼的這些貼文有的是不斷的透過AI重複的複製在進行散播那這部分假如有這樣的現象的話一般來跟社群媒體的平台進行檢舉的話都會下架我記得在去年的上半年光YouTube有一個特定集團的\n575691\t576633\t所以就像我剛剛特別提到的這種同樣一個\n584599\t588401\t在選舉期間也曾經有相關的一個社群媒體平台在散佈錯假的影音訊息講的是蔡前總統他的學位的問題或家族的弊案的問題\n610393\t637731\t那這個在3個小時、4個小時之內就傳散到各個地方去甚至翻譯成20幾種語言那我們後來是透過檢舉的方式在不到17、8個小時之內全部下架好 那麼對於像這樣的相關的訊息包括連現在AI的進入有機會我再跟您來做討論但是我要提醒的另外一個是當你們做了這樣相關的下架之後因為這樣的錯假訊息其實它要擾動的是台灣的民心甚至於要營造\n639212\t639372\t林楚茵\n659821\t660041\t好,謝謝辛苦\n","txt":"謝謝主席 主席有請我們蔡局長跟田政次請蔡局長還有田政次謝謝主席 林委員好\n局長跟政次這個問題是不知道兩位有沒有看到有一個即時新聞是昨天的時候發出來的就是出席賴總統的就職活動澳洲有多名的議員在\n回到他們的這個辦公室之後發現就收到了中國的代表處寄出了這個所謂恐嚇信件要求他們要遵守一中原則之外呢我們可以感受到的是中國戰狼式的手段似乎在520的最近動作頻頻首先我是不是先請田政次好了政次有收到這個訊息嗎\n我們在整個統計這個520的外賓來的時候確實中國用盡了很多的方法我跟委員報告不僅澳洲不僅澳洲那麼其他的部分可能不方便說我可以跟你私下報告不僅澳洲的議員接受其他有相當多的國家受到相當嚴厲的說明要阻止他們前來\n好 那麼我們的包括除了這個得知訊息之外有沒有什麼其他的作為又或者是這個會不會影響到520之後的相關的有關於國際上面的局勢政策怎麼研判在能夠說的範圍底下可不可以讓我們了解一下\n這一次來的外賓來了以後其實對台灣的民主化更有更深刻的影響他們會覺得這些所謂中國用戰狼式的威脅其實是在民主國家是不起作用的\n好 言下之意這會不會影響到說接下來他們在更台面上面的交流會受到相關的遏止又或者是說其實影響性不大接下來的其他的我們相關我們知道接下來可能更大的就是有關於國慶的部分那也是剩下半年不到的時間那這些都會受到影響嗎\n這個也是他們其中的一個方法我們除了國慶還有其他的比如說它的偉慶也是要用這個機會來怎麼樣來打擊我們在國際間的一些力道所以您說的除了澳洲之外那麼整個我們這一次出席的國家當中歐洲、亞洲那麼加起來幾乎都有受到不同等級的威脅那各自的威脅是什麼樣的樣態\n他有些是透過剛才您說的寫信有些是透過當地政府的解嚴重警告你不可以去等等樣態非常多當然有些用利誘的方式都有我可以找個時間到委員那裡做一個比較詳盡的報告好 謝謝政次那我要就問的就是有請蔡局長了其實我們知道這個中國的戰狼的手段跟威嚇的方式包括剛剛前面幾位委員提到的這個聯合軍演等等都是一種樣態\n那麼在520之後對於國安局來講怎麼樣在外交上面或是國防當中能夠守住我們現在現有的這種外交上面的合作的方式國安局有一些方法跟應對的處理方式嗎或是怎麼樣跟外交部來做合作跟國防部來做合作\n雖然我們現在面臨到中共的脅迫有比較升高的一個趨勢但是從另外一個角度來講他有提供我們跟國際社會友盟合作非常好的機會也就是說國際社會友盟他會非常關注中共在台海地區軍事活動動態\n那台灣在這部分的情報掌聲能力算相當的不錯那我們就可以跟國際友盟來分享這方面的資訊以及中共在台海周邊水域我們剛剛也提到海上灰色地帶的操作那這些海上灰色地帶的操作動員到海警船或公務船進行這種執法巡查\n在東海水域日本很關注在南海水域左邊國家也很關注所以這部分我們也會來加強跟相關國家的一個合作那另外有一個重點是在中共的軍人過程當中也會對我們的民主開放的社會來進行所謂的認知作戰操作這種假訊息那剛剛我想在外交部的書面報告當中也提到了今年因為已經或後續還有70個國家要進行\n我相信國安局所掌握的就是這些情資包括剛剛我會特別問田政司的部分就是這些情資的研判跟分析的過程當中這個防範與未然是非常重要的\n當中國的戰狼在外交上面給予許多給我們台灣不只是給我們台灣穿腳鞋之外威脅我們的邦交國或者是友邦這些民意代表的時候其實這樣的情資的訊息的給予是非常重要的但是我們也知道從昨天我們立法院通過了這個職權刑事法25條之後這是原本的法規原本的法規是認為可以避開國防、外交\n如果說有危害那可以遵守秘密但是新修訂的法令變成是經主席同意本席其實想要提出來的是接下來什麼是秘密或不是秘密恐怕就還有另外的包括今天我們國防外交委員會的會議主席都可以來做決定\n但是我記得我曾經在這裡也詢問過了包括我們的各個行政機關的文件的密等是由主官可以來做認定那麼這個就會產生未來這個法令如果真的要執行的時候那麼密等的密之間包括國安局這裡怎麼樣來決定這個密能不能說不說那就是藐視國會\n說了那就違反國家機密相關的保護我先提醒我沒有要這個局長一定非回答不可但是這是一個包括國安局在內必須現在跟國安會跟國防部跟外交部必須要來審慎討論到底這個密要怎麼辦怎麼做決定尤其是如果說就像剛剛我舉的那個例子我們如果先收到了情資我們知道\n在520或是重要包括未來10月10號的國慶的時候我們知道中國的戰狼又有新的動作的時候那這樣的機密是要在立法院做揭露嗎還是必須在主席的同意之下\n為了國家的安全即使主席要你說你也不能說這個兩者之間有沒有啟動相關的跨部會的討論跟因應好,謝謝委員提醒這件事情剛剛那個陳冠廷委員也在關切這個問題那就國家機密保護法來講的話\n當然對於絕對機密及機密跟機密的核定有它一定的授權的程序就本局來講大概就有首長有我本人來進行相關的核定那因為我們在行政部門對於機密的核等有我們的作業規範那現在就是對於立法院這邊在立委職權行事法修正之後怎麼樣來取得彼此對於機密認定的一個標準那這涉及到作業的部分那所以在法規以外在作業的部分我們會再跟大院這邊來密切的溝通特別是昭緯這邊來討論\n好接下來當然我要詢問的就是有關於訊息的部分了最近有一陣子已經沉寂的所謂內容農場的臉書粉絲團又開始出現而且現在有許多的學者提醒這些名為在地粉絲團但是經營的不是台灣人\n那我不知道國安局有沒有發現這樣的狀況而這樣的粉絲團的存在是為什麼而且這樣的粉絲團喔他基本上呢你會發現喔他寫的是我們周圍旅行啦然後美景啦然後但是他居然可以PO出一樣或類似的照片\n那這個狀況到底它的存在的目的為何?而國安局有沒有掌握到相關的形式?因為這樣的帶風向的背後有沒有國安疑慮?這我們一直有專任在關注因為社群媒體上現在主要的平台特別要注意的一個是臉書一個是YouTube\n那在這些平台上面有一些的有問題的帳號這種所謂的有問題的帳號它可能平時所張貼的貼文都是風花雪月可是到了一個特別的政治時刻或軍演的時刻它開始轉貼各種替對岸來做文宣或正義訊息散播的一個平台或帳號那我們會透過我們的一些大數據還有AI的技術來針對這些有問題的帳號來做追蹤那有一些帳號它假如是違反到\n社群平台管理的規則的話那我們會請社群平台的管理者把這些有問題的帳號來移除所以這部分我們也會去比對這些帳號它所貼的這些貼文有的是不斷的透過AI重複的複製在進行散播那這部分假如有這樣的現象的話一般來跟社群媒體的平台進行檢舉的話都會下架我記得在去年的上半年光YouTube有一個特定集團的\n所以就像我剛剛特別提到的這種同樣一個\n在選舉期間也曾經有相關的一個社群媒體平台在散佈錯假的影音訊息講的是蔡前總統他的學位的問題或家族的弊案的問題\n那這個在3個小時、4個小時之內就傳散到各個地方去甚至翻譯成20幾種語言那我們後來是透過檢舉的方式在不到17、8個小時之內全部下架好 那麼對於像這樣的相關的訊息包括連現在AI的進入有機會我再跟您來做討論但是我要提醒的另外一個是當你們做了這樣相關的下架之後因為這樣的錯假訊息其實它要擾動的是台灣的民心甚至於要營造\n林楚茵\n好,謝謝辛苦\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.097 --> 00:07.883\n謝 謝 主 席 主 席 有 請 我 們 蔡 局 長 跟 田 政 次 請 蔡 局 長 還 有 田 政 次 謝 謝 主 席 林 委 員 好\n\n00:15.936 --> 00:29.274\n局 長 跟 政 次 這 個 問 題 是 不 知 道 兩 位 有 沒 有 看 到 有 一 個 即 時 新 聞 是 昨 天 的 時 候 發 出 來 的 就 是 出 席 賴 總 統 的 就 職 活 動 澳 洲 有 多 名 的 議 員 在\n\n00:30.996 --> 00:52.464\n回 到 他 們 的 這 個 辦 公 室 之 後 發 現 就 收 到 了 中 國 的 代 表 處 寄 出 了 這 個 所 謂 恐 嚇 信 件 要 求 他 們 要 遵 守 一 中 原 則 之 外 呢 我 們 可 以 感 受 到 的 是 中 國 戰 狼 式 的 手 段 似 乎 在 5 2 0 的 最 近 動 作 頻 頻 首 先 我 是 不 是 先 請 田 政 次 好 了 政 次 有 收 到 這 個 訊 息 嗎\n\n00:55.700 --> 01:24.282\n我 們 在 整 個 統 計 這 個 5 2 0 的 外 賓 來 的 時 候 確 實 中 國 用 盡 了 很 多 的 方 法 我 跟 委 員 報 告 不 僅 澳 洲 不 僅 澳 洲 那 麼 其 他 的 部 分 可 能 不 方 便 說 我 可 以 跟 你 私 下 報 告 不 僅 澳 洲 的 議 員 接 受 其 他 有 相 當 多 的 國 家 受 到 相 當 嚴 厲 的 說 明 要 阻 止 他 們 前 來\n\n01:25.123 --> 01:42.498\n好 那 麼 我 們 的 包 括 除 了 這 個 得 知 訊 息 之 外 有 沒 有 什 麼 其 他 的 作 為 又 或 者 是 這 個 會 不 會 影 響 到 5 2 0 之 後 的 相 關 的 有 關 於 國 際 上 面 的 局 勢 政 策 怎 麼 研 判 在 能 夠 說 的 範 圍 底 下 可 不 可 以 讓 我 們 了 解 一 下\n\n01:43.747 --> 01:58.865\n這 一 次 來 的 外 賓 來 了 以 後 其 實 對 台 灣 的 民 主 化 更 有 更 深 刻 的 影 響 他 們 會 覺 得 這 些 所 謂 中 國 用 戰 狼 式 的 威 脅 其 實 是 在 民 主 國 家 是 不 起 作 用 的\n\n01:59.005 --> 02:18.131\n好 言 下 之 意 這 會 不 會 影 響 到 說 接 下 來 他 們 在 更 台 面 上 面 的 交 流 會 受 到 相 關 的 遏 止 又 或 者 是 說 其 實 影 響 性 不 大 接 下 來 的 其 他 的 我 們 相 關 我 們 知 道 接 下 來 可 能 更 大 的 就 是 有 關 於 國 慶 的 部 分 那 也 是 剩 下 半 年 不 到 的 時 間 那 這 些 都 會 受 到 影 響 嗎\n\n02:20.031 --> 02:47.496\n這 個 也 是 他 們 其 中 的 一 個 方 法 我 們 除 了 國 慶 還 有 其 他 的 比 如 說 它 的 偉 慶 也 是 要 用 這 個 機 會 來 怎 麼 樣 來 打 擊 我 們 在 國 際 間 的 一 些 力 道 所 以 您 說 的 除 了 澳 洲 之 外 那 麼 整 個 我 們 這 一 次 出 席 的 國 家 當 中 歐 洲 、 亞 洲 那 麼 加 起 來 幾 乎 都 有 受 到 不 同 等 級 的 威 脅 那 各 自 的 威 脅 是 什 麼 樣 的 樣 態\n\n02:49.589 --> 03:18.026\n他 有 些 是 透 過 剛 才 您 說 的 寫 信 有 些 是 透 過 當 地 政 府 的 解 嚴 重 警 告 你 不 可 以 去 等 等 樣 態 非 常 多 當 然 有 些 用 利 誘 的 方 式 都 有 我 可 以 找 個 時 間 到 委 員 那 裡 做 一 個 比 較 詳 盡 的 報 告 好 謝 謝 政 次 那 我 要 就 問 的 就 是 有 請 蔡 局 長 了 其 實 我 們 知 道 這 個 中 國 的 戰 狼 的 手 段 跟 威 嚇 的 方 式 包 括 剛 剛 前 面 幾 位 委 員 提 到 的 這 個 聯 合 軍 演 等 等 都 是 一 種 樣 態\n\n03:19.167 --> 03:37.786\n那 麼 在 5 2 0 之 後 對 於 國 安 局 來 講 怎 麼 樣 在 外 交 上 面 或 是 國 防 當 中 能 夠 守 住 我 們 現 在 現 有 的 這 種 外 交 上 面 的 合 作 的 方 式 國 安 局 有 一 些 方 法 跟 應 對 的 處 理 方 式 嗎 或 是 怎 麼 樣 跟 外 交 部 來 做 合 作 跟 國 防 部 來 做 合 作\n\n03:38.826 --> 03:55.093\n雖 然 我 們 現 在 面 臨 到 中 共 的 脅 迫 有 比 較 升 高 的 一 個 趨 勢 但 是 從 另 外 一 個 角 度 來 講 他 有 提 供 我 們 跟 國 際 社 會 友 盟 合 作 非 常 好 的 機 會 也 就 是 說 國 際 社 會 友 盟 他 會 非 常 關 注 中 共 在 台 海 地 區 軍 事 活 動 動 態\n\n03:55.973 --> 04:12.200\n那 台 灣 在 這 部 分 的 情 報 掌 聲 能 力 算 相 當 的 不 錯 那 我 們 就 可 以 跟 國 際 友 盟 來 分 享 這 方 面 的 資 訊 以 及 中 共 在 台 海 周 邊 水 域 我 們 剛 剛 也 提 到 海 上 灰 色 地 帶 的 操 作 那 這 些 海 上 灰 色 地 帶 的 操 作 動 員 到 海 警 船 或 公 務 船 進 行 這 種 執 法 巡 查\n\n04:12.760 --> 04:34.695\n在 東 海 水 域 日 本 很 關 注 在 南 海 水 域 左 邊 國 家 也 很 關 注 所 以 這 部 分 我 們 也 會 來 加 強 跟 相 關 國 家 的 一 個 合 作 那 另 外 有 一 個 重 點 是 在 中 共 的 軍 人 過 程 當 中 也 會 對 我 們 的 民 主 開 放 的 社 會 來 進 行 所 謂 的 認 知 作 戰 操 作 這 種 假 訊 息 那 剛 剛 我 想 在 外 交 部 的 書 面 報 告 當 中 也 提 到 了 今 年 因 為 已 經 或 後 續 還 有 7 0 個 國 家 要 進 行\n\n04:36.636 --> 04:39.638\n我 相 信 國 安 局 所 掌 握 的 就 是 這 些 情 資 包 括 剛 剛 我 會 特 別 問 田 政 司 的 部 分 就 是 這 些 情 資 的 研 判 跟 分 析 的 過 程 當 中 這 個 防 範 與 未 然 是 非 常 重 要 的\n\n05:04.617 --> 05:11.023\n當 中 國 的 戰 狼 在 外 交 上 面 給 予 許 多 給 我 們 台 灣 不 只 是 給 我 們 台 灣 穿 腳 鞋 之 外 威 脅 我 們 的 邦 交 國 或 者 是 友 邦 這 些 民 意 代 表 的 時 候 其 實 這 樣 的 情 資 的 訊 息 的 給 予 是 非 常 重 要 的 但 是 我 們 也 知 道 從 昨 天 我 們 立 法 院 通 過 了 這 個 職 權 刑 事 法 2 5 條 之 後 這 是 原 本 的 法 規 原 本 的 法 規 是 認 為 可 以 避 開 國 防 、 外 交\n\n05:31.420 --> 05:50.214\n如 果 說 有 危 害 那 可 以 遵 守 秘 密 但 是 新 修 訂 的 法 令 變 成 是 經 主 席 同 意 本 席 其 實 想 要 提 出 來 的 是 接 下 來 什 麼 是 秘 密 或 不 是 秘 密 恐 怕 就 還 有 另 外 的 包 括 今 天 我 們 國 防 外 交 委 員 會 的 會 議 主 席 都 可 以 來 做 決 定\n\n05:51.195 --> 06:11.481\n但 是 我 記 得 我 曾 經 在 這 裡 也 詢 問 過 了 包 括 我 們 的 各 個 行 政 機 關 的 文 件 的 密 等 是 由 主 官 可 以 來 做 認 定 那 麼 這 個 就 會 產 生 未 來 這 個 法 令 如 果 真 的 要 執 行 的 時 候 那 麼 密 等 的 密 之 間 包 括 國 安 局 這 裡 怎 麼 樣 來 決 定 這 個 密 能 不 能 說 不 說 那 就 是 藐 視 國 會\n\n06:17.022 --> 06:43.050\n說 了 那 就 違 反 國 家 機 密 相 關 的 保 護 我 先 提 醒 我 沒 有 要 這 個 局 長 一 定 非 回 答 不 可 但 是 這 是 一 個 包 括 國 安 局 在 內 必 須 現 在 跟 國 安 會 跟 國 防 部 跟 外 交 部 必 須 要 來 審 慎 討 論 到 底 這 個 密 要 怎 麼 辦 怎 麼 做 決 定 尤 其 是 如 果 說 就 像 剛 剛 我 舉 的 那 個 例 子 我 們 如 果 先 收 到 了 情 資 我 們 知 道\n\n06:45.251 --> 07:00.567\n在 5 2 0 或 是 重 要 包 括 未 來 1 0 月 1 0 號 的 國 慶 的 時 候 我 們 知 道 中 國 的 戰 狼 又 有 新 的 動 作 的 時 候 那 這 樣 的 機 密 是 要 在 立 法 院 做 揭 露 嗎 還 是 必 須 在 主 席 的 同 意 之 下\n\n07:01.918 --> 07:15.295\n為 了 國 家 的 安 全 即 使 主 席 要 你 說 你 也 不 能 說 這 個 兩 者 之 間 有 沒 有 啟 動 相 關 的 跨 部 會 的 討 論 跟 因 應 好 , 謝 謝 委 員 提 醒 這 件 事 情 剛 剛 那 個 陳 冠 廷 委 員 也 在 關 切 這 個 問 題 那 就 國 家 機 密 保 護 法 來 講 的 話\n\n07:18.479 --> 07:45.972\n當 然 對 於 絕 對 機 密 及 機 密 跟 機 密 的 核 定 有 它 一 定 的 授 權 的 程 序 就 本 局 來 講 大 概 就 有 首 長 有 我 本 人 來 進 行 相 關 的 核 定 那 因 為 我 們 在 行 政 部 門 對 於 機 密 的 核 等 有 我 們 的 作 業 規 範 那 現 在 就 是 對 於 立 法 院 這 邊 在 立 委 職 權 行 事 法 修 正 之 後 怎 麼 樣 來 取 得 彼 此 對 於 機 密 認 定 的 一 個 標 準 那 這 涉 及 到 作 業 的 部 分 那 所 以 在 法 規 以 外 在 作 業 的 部 分 我 們 會 再 跟 大 院 這 邊 來 密 切 的 溝 通 特 別 是 昭 緯 這 邊 來 討 論\n\n07:47.073 --> 08:04.442\n好 接 下 來 當 然 我 要 詢 問 的 就 是 有 關 於 訊 息 的 部 分 了 最 近 有 一 陣 子 已 經 沉 寂 的 所 謂 內 容 農 場 的 臉 書 粉 絲 團 又 開 始 出 現 而 且 現 在 有 許 多 的 學 者 提 醒 這 些 名 為 在 地 粉 絲 團 但 是 經 營 的 不 是 台 灣 人\n\n08:05.714 --> 08:21.894\n那 我 不 知 道 國 安 局 有 沒 有 發 現 這 樣 的 狀 況 而 這 樣 的 粉 絲 團 的 存 在 是 為 什 麼 而 且 這 樣 的 粉 絲 團 喔 他 基 本 上 呢 你 會 發 現 喔 他 寫 的 是 我 們 周 圍 旅 行 啦 然 後 美 景 啦 然 後 但 是 他 居 然 可 以 P O 出 一 樣 或 類 似 的 照 片\n\n08:23.462 --> 08:38.367\n那 這 個 狀 況 到 底 它 的 存 在 的 目 的 為 何 ? 而 國 安 局 有 沒 有 掌 握 到 相 關 的 形 式 ? 因 為 這 樣 的 帶 風 向 的 背 後 有 沒 有 國 安 疑 慮 ? 這 我 們 一 直 有 專 任 在 關 注 因 為 社 群 媒 體 上 現 在 主 要 的 平 台 特 別 要 注 意 的 一 個 是 臉 書 一 個 是 Y o u T u b e\n\n08:40.288 --> 09:02.360\n那 在 這 些 平 台 上 面 有 一 些 的 有 問 題 的 帳 號 這 種 所 謂 的 有 問 題 的 帳 號 它 可 能 平 時 所 張 貼 的 貼 文 都 是 風 花 雪 月 可 是 到 了 一 個 特 別 的 政 治 時 刻 或 軍 演 的 時 刻 它 開 始 轉 貼 各 種 替 對 岸 來 做 文 宣 或 正 義 訊 息 散 播 的 一 個 平 台 或 帳 號 那 我 們 會 透 過 我 們 的 一 些 大 數 據 還 有 A I 的 技 術 來 針 對 這 些 有 問 題 的 帳 號 來 做 追 蹤 那 有 一 些 帳 號 它 假 如 是 違 反 到\n\n09:09.143 --> 09:34.131\n社 群 平 台 管 理 的 規 則 的 話 那 我 們 會 請 社 群 平 台 的 管 理 者 把 這 些 有 問 題 的 帳 號 來 移 除 所 以 這 部 分 我 們 也 會 去 比 對 這 些 帳 號 它 所 貼 的 這 些 貼 文 有 的 是 不 斷 的 透 過 A I 重 複 的 複 製 在 進 行 散 播 那 這 部 分 假 如 有 這 樣 的 現 象 的 話 一 般 來 跟 社 群 媒 體 的 平 台 進 行 檢 舉 的 話 都 會 下 架 我 記 得 在 去 年 的 上 半 年 光 Y o u T u b e 有 一 個 特 定 集 團 的\n\n09:35.691 --> 09:36.633\n所 以 就 像 我 剛 剛 特 別 提 到 的 這 種 同 樣 一 個\n\n09:44.599 --> 09:48.401\n在 選 舉 期 間 也 曾 經 有 相 關 的 一 個 社 群 媒 體 平 台 在 散 佈 錯 假 的 影 音 訊 息 講 的 是 蔡 前 總 統 他 的 學 位 的 問 題 或 家 族 的 弊 案 的 問 題\n\n10:10.393 --> 10:37.731\n那 這 個 在 3 個 小 時 、 4 個 小 時 之 內 就 傳 散 到 各 個 地 方 去 甚 至 翻 譯 成 2 0 幾 種 語 言 那 我 們 後 來 是 透 過 檢 舉 的 方 式 在 不 到 1 7 、 8 個 小 時 之 內 全 部 下 架 好 那 麼 對 於 像 這 樣 的 相 關 的 訊 息 包 括 連 現 在 A I 的 進 入 有 機 會 我 再 跟 您 來 做 討 論 但 是 我 要 提 醒 的 另 外 一 個 是 當 你 們 做 了 這 樣 相 關 的 下 架 之 後 因 為 這 樣 的 錯 假 訊 息 其 實 它 要 擾 動 的 是 台 灣 的 民 心 甚 至 於 要 營 造\n\n10:39.212 --> 10:39.372\n林 楚 茵\n\n10:59.821 --> 11:00.041\n好 , 謝 謝 辛 苦\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.097,"end":7.883,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請我們蔡局長跟田政次請蔡局長還有田政次謝謝主席 林委員好"},{"start":15.936,"end":29.274,"text":"局長跟政次這個問題是不知道兩位有沒有看到有一個即時新聞是昨天的時候發出來的就是出席賴總統的就職活動澳洲有多名的議員在"},{"start":30.996,"end":52.464,"text":"回到他們的這個辦公室之後發現就收到了中國的代表處寄出了這個所謂恐嚇信件要求他們要遵守一中原則之外呢我們可以感受到的是中國戰狼式的手段似乎在520的最近動作頻頻首先我是不是先請田政次好了政次有收到這個訊息嗎"},{"start":55.7,"end":84.282,"text":"我們在整個統計這個520的外賓來的時候確實中國用盡了很多的方法我跟委員報告不僅澳洲不僅澳洲那麼其他的部分可能不方便說我可以跟你私下報告不僅澳洲的議員接受其他有相當多的國家受到相當嚴厲的說明要阻止他們前來"},{"start":85.123,"end":102.498,"text":"好 那麼我們的包括除了這個得知訊息之外有沒有什麼其他的作為又或者是這個會不會影響到520之後的相關的有關於國際上面的局勢政策怎麼研判在能夠說的範圍底下可不可以讓我們了解一下"},{"start":103.747,"end":118.865,"text":"這一次來的外賓來了以後其實對台灣的民主化更有更深刻的影響他們會覺得這些所謂中國用戰狼式的威脅其實是在民主國家是不起作用的"},{"start":119.005,"end":138.131,"text":"好 言下之意這會不會影響到說接下來他們在更台面上面的交流會受到相關的遏止又或者是說其實影響性不大接下來的其他的我們相關我們知道接下來可能更大的就是有關於國慶的部分那也是剩下半年不到的時間那這些都會受到影響嗎"},{"start":140.031,"end":167.496,"text":"這個也是他們其中的一個方法我們除了國慶還有其他的比如說它的偉慶也是要用這個機會來怎麼樣來打擊我們在國際間的一些力道所以您說的除了澳洲之外那麼整個我們這一次出席的國家當中歐洲、亞洲那麼加起來幾乎都有受到不同等級的威脅那各自的威脅是什麼樣的樣態"},{"start":169.589,"end":198.026,"text":"他有些是透過剛才您說的寫信有些是透過當地政府的解嚴重警告你不可以去等等樣態非常多當然有些用利誘的方式都有我可以找個時間到委員那裡做一個比較詳盡的報告好 謝謝政次那我要就問的就是有請蔡局長了其實我們知道這個中國的戰狼的手段跟威嚇的方式包括剛剛前面幾位委員提到的這個聯合軍演等等都是一種樣態"},{"start":199.167,"end":217.786,"text":"那麼在520之後對於國安局來講怎麼樣在外交上面或是國防當中能夠守住我們現在現有的這種外交上面的合作的方式國安局有一些方法跟應對的處理方式嗎或是怎麼樣跟外交部來做合作跟國防部來做合作"},{"start":218.826,"end":235.093,"text":"雖然我們現在面臨到中共的脅迫有比較升高的一個趨勢但是從另外一個角度來講他有提供我們跟國際社會友盟合作非常好的機會也就是說國際社會友盟他會非常關注中共在台海地區軍事活動動態"},{"start":235.973,"end":252.2,"text":"那台灣在這部分的情報掌聲能力算相當的不錯那我們就可以跟國際友盟來分享這方面的資訊以及中共在台海周邊水域我們剛剛也提到海上灰色地帶的操作那這些海上灰色地帶的操作動員到海警船或公務船進行這種執法巡查"},{"start":252.76,"end":274.695,"text":"在東海水域日本很關注在南海水域左邊國家也很關注所以這部分我們也會來加強跟相關國家的一個合作那另外有一個重點是在中共的軍人過程當中也會對我們的民主開放的社會來進行所謂的認知作戰操作這種假訊息那剛剛我想在外交部的書面報告當中也提到了今年因為已經或後續還有70個國家要進行"},{"start":276.636,"end":279.638,"text":"我相信國安局所掌握的就是這些情資包括剛剛我會特別問田政司的部分就是這些情資的研判跟分析的過程當中這個防範與未然是非常重要的"},{"start":304.617,"end":311.023,"text":"當中國的戰狼在外交上面給予許多給我們台灣不只是給我們台灣穿腳鞋之外威脅我們的邦交國或者是友邦這些民意代表的時候其實這樣的情資的訊息的給予是非常重要的但是我們也知道從昨天我們立法院通過了這個職權刑事法25條之後這是原本的法規原本的法規是認為可以避開國防、外交"},{"start":331.42,"end":350.214,"text":"如果說有危害那可以遵守秘密但是新修訂的法令變成是經主席同意本席其實想要提出來的是接下來什麼是秘密或不是秘密恐怕就還有另外的包括今天我們國防外交委員會的會議主席都可以來做決定"},{"start":351.195,"end":371.481,"text":"但是我記得我曾經在這裡也詢問過了包括我們的各個行政機關的文件的密等是由主官可以來做認定那麼這個就會產生未來這個法令如果真的要執行的時候那麼密等的密之間包括國安局這裡怎麼樣來決定這個密能不能說不說那就是藐視國會"},{"start":377.022,"end":403.05,"text":"說了那就違反國家機密相關的保護我先提醒我沒有要這個局長一定非回答不可但是這是一個包括國安局在內必須現在跟國安會跟國防部跟外交部必須要來審慎討論到底這個密要怎麼辦怎麼做決定尤其是如果說就像剛剛我舉的那個例子我們如果先收到了情資我們知道"},{"start":405.251,"end":420.567,"text":"在520或是重要包括未來10月10號的國慶的時候我們知道中國的戰狼又有新的動作的時候那這樣的機密是要在立法院做揭露嗎還是必須在主席的同意之下"},{"start":421.918,"end":435.295,"text":"為了國家的安全即使主席要你說你也不能說這個兩者之間有沒有啟動相關的跨部會的討論跟因應好,謝謝委員提醒這件事情剛剛那個陳冠廷委員也在關切這個問題那就國家機密保護法來講的話"},{"start":438.479,"end":465.972,"text":"當然對於絕對機密及機密跟機密的核定有它一定的授權的程序就本局來講大概就有首長有我本人來進行相關的核定那因為我們在行政部門對於機密的核等有我們的作業規範那現在就是對於立法院這邊在立委職權行事法修正之後怎麼樣來取得彼此對於機密認定的一個標準那這涉及到作業的部分那所以在法規以外在作業的部分我們會再跟大院這邊來密切的溝通特別是昭緯這邊來討論"},{"start":467.073,"end":484.442,"text":"好接下來當然我要詢問的就是有關於訊息的部分了最近有一陣子已經沉寂的所謂內容農場的臉書粉絲團又開始出現而且現在有許多的學者提醒這些名為在地粉絲團但是經營的不是台灣人"},{"start":485.714,"end":501.894,"text":"那我不知道國安局有沒有發現這樣的狀況而這樣的粉絲團的存在是為什麼而且這樣的粉絲團喔他基本上呢你會發現喔他寫的是我們周圍旅行啦然後美景啦然後但是他居然可以PO出一樣或類似的照片"},{"start":503.462,"end":518.367,"text":"那這個狀況到底它的存在的目的為何?而國安局有沒有掌握到相關的形式?因為這樣的帶風向的背後有沒有國安疑慮?這我們一直有專任在關注因為社群媒體上現在主要的平台特別要注意的一個是臉書一個是YouTube"},{"start":520.288,"end":542.36,"text":"那在這些平台上面有一些的有問題的帳號這種所謂的有問題的帳號它可能平時所張貼的貼文都是風花雪月可是到了一個特別的政治時刻或軍演的時刻它開始轉貼各種替對岸來做文宣或正義訊息散播的一個平台或帳號那我們會透過我們的一些大數據還有AI的技術來針對這些有問題的帳號來做追蹤那有一些帳號它假如是違反到"},{"start":549.143,"end":574.131,"text":"社群平台管理的規則的話那我們會請社群平台的管理者把這些有問題的帳號來移除所以這部分我們也會去比對這些帳號它所貼的這些貼文有的是不斷的透過AI重複的複製在進行散播那這部分假如有這樣的現象的話一般來跟社群媒體的平台進行檢舉的話都會下架我記得在去年的上半年光YouTube有一個特定集團的"},{"start":575.691,"end":576.633,"text":"所以就像我剛剛特別提到的這種同樣一個"},{"start":584.599,"end":588.401,"text":"在選舉期間也曾經有相關的一個社群媒體平台在散佈錯假的影音訊息講的是蔡前總統他的學位的問題或家族的弊案的問題"},{"start":610.393,"end":637.731,"text":"那這個在3個小時、4個小時之內就傳散到各個地方去甚至翻譯成20幾種語言那我們後來是透過檢舉的方式在不到17、8個小時之內全部下架好 那麼對於像這樣的相關的訊息包括連現在AI的進入有機會我再跟您來做討論但是我要提醒的另外一個是當你們做了這樣相關的下架之後因為這樣的錯假訊息其實它要擾動的是台灣的民心甚至於要營造"},{"start":639.212,"end":639.372,"text":"林楚茵"},{"start":659.821,"end":660.041,"text":"好,謝謝辛苦"}]}}}}