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10:41:34","影片長度":"00:09:14","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":554,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T10:41:34+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T10:32:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":464,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（10時32分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部林次長，還有核安會陳主委。"],["主席：是，請主委和次長，謝謝。"],["郭委員昱晴：兩位早安。"],["陳主任委員東陽：郭委員早。"],["林次長全能：委員早。"],["郭委員昱晴：臺灣使用核電，碰到的最大困境應該是地震頻傳，再來就是核廢料處理的問題，這應該是目前我們碰到的最大狀況。本席再次請教次長，本席的孩子也知道，有時候停電或跳電並不是缺電的問題，其實還有很多外部和內部的問題，對不對？並不是因為臺灣缺電。"],["林次長全能：是，跳電不一定是缺電的緣故。"],["郭委員昱晴：以現行的法規來看，核電廠要延役必須經過很嚴密的計畫，包含我們知道的，如果要延役，必須在執照屆期之前的5到15年就要提出申請。我們知道目前在國內，不管是核一廠或者是核二廠，例如核一廠的部分，其實一些重要設備已經慢慢移除，所以重啟幾乎是不可能，延役更不用說了。在核二廠的部分，其實核廢料的問題依舊存在，就算某些立委有執念想要重啟，是不是也無法運轉？核二的部分。"],["林次長全能：這個法規面已經很明確的規範，它不可能再重啟運作。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。另外核三的部分，1號機組是今年7月底，2號機組是明年5月中，它們就確定除役；當然，針對這個部分，還是有人想要再做一些事，不管是全世界的創舉，例如想要利用修法，希望讓核三繼續工作、延役。關於這個部分，本席想要問的就是，核一，剛才已經說了，它不會再有重建、延役的問題。核二，目前就算要重啟，還要經過整體的評估，這個評估大概要多久？還有包含本席剛才問的，核三如果真的要延役的話，法律和安全上會面臨什麼樣的問題？"],["林次長全能：這部分在法規面有很完備的相關延役規定，目前核三廠不管是1號機或是2號機，都已經過了延役的申請時間，依照法規，它不可能再進行所謂的延役。"],["郭委員昱晴：那核三呢？"],["林次長全能：我剛才說的是核三廠的1號機、2號機。"],["郭委員昱晴：OK。好，如果不延役，如果沒辦法重啟，未來臺灣的用電會不會受到影響？大部分的人應該都會把焦點放在這一塊，因為這和他們切身相關。"],["林次長全能：是。經濟部就是要做到穩定供電，我們會預估詳細的需求，做好供給的提供。我剛才提到，我們已經就核三廠1號機或2號機停止運轉後所需要的供電做好準備，包括天然氣電廠，包括再生能源的太陽光電或者離岸風電，今年或明年都會成長、增加。"],["郭委員昱晴：已經有做過比較基礎的數據評估嗎？"],["林次長全能：是，我們有很詳細的評估和規劃。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以目前就算是核三廠，也不會有所謂的延役問題，而且就算不延役，臺灣也沒有缺電的問題，可以這樣說嗎？"],["林次長全能：這個是我們努力要做到的事情。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。接下來本席想要問的，就是所謂的核融合基礎研究。所謂的聚變能研究，其實分兩個不同的部分，其中一個趨勢是磁局限融合，另外一個是慣性局限融合，臺灣比較傾向的，目前正在專心研究的部分，其實就是磁局限融合，這個部分法國也在做，他們的計畫大概進行了30年，目前進度稍微落後。這樣對嗎？"],["林次長全能：關於這個部分，抱歉，委員，我沒有很深入的了解，可不可以請台電回答？"],["郭委員昱晴：可以，沒問題。"],["許副總經理永輝：主要是因為經費的問題啦！大概是因為跨國的關係。這個計畫的確是30年前發起的，當時大概只有7個國家，我記得現在已經擴充到17個國家。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以這是比較主流的計畫嘛！對不對？應該這麼說。"],["許副總經理永輝：目前來說是國際上比較主流的。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。但是慣性局限融合的部分，其實美國在2022年的年底，它的Q值已經首次大於1，也就是說這個部分提前達標了，為什麼我們還是比較堅持做所謂的磁局限融合？我們比較聚焦在這個部分。"],["許副總經理永輝：基本上前面那一個，就是Tokamak機型，現在是國際的主流，底下那個是Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory，是在加州舊金山的一個國家實驗室，這個實驗室達到所謂的淨值部分，我記得大概只有0.1秒左右，所以它還……"],["郭委員昱晴：還不穩定。"],["許副總經理永輝：未來如果運用在發電上，還是有發電效率的損失。所以就這一塊來說，目前在國際上比較不是主流，因為它是用脈衝式的對撞去做核融合的狀態。"],["郭委員昱晴：在磁局限的融合部分，我們的計畫大概什麼時候可以達到？"],["許副總經理永輝：目前就我所知，國原院有一個計畫。"],["郭委員昱晴：什麼樣的計畫？這個部分請主委回答一下。"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個部分其實是國科會補助的整合型計畫，有5個子計畫，兩年一期，總共有4年。它其實算是一個基礎研究，我們1年投入3,500萬元，兩年一期，後面還有第二期。國際的ITER，或者法國的團隊、跨國的團隊，這些都是非常前沿的研究，我們這個計畫只是研究用，是一個基礎研究，而且即便是國際上前沿的團隊，離實際商轉運作還有很大的一段距離。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。接下來本席要問一下，就是近年來關於核融合的技術發展，我們一直朝這個方面努力，2024年用核融合的方式發電，目前還是沒有辦法達到，對不對？但是我們從新聞報導發現一間比較特殊的公司，本席想要提出來，這個部分不曉得主委是否知道，他們好像也不是做剛剛我們介紹過的核融合兩個不同研究方向，可是他們在大篇幅的媒體報導當中說他們已經開始核融合，而且還要把它商業化。這個部分我們有沒有去觀察或是有沒有去關切？到底這間公司所說的核融合的技巧、核融合的技術是真的如他們所說的這樣嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我大概有一些了解，我跟其中一位創辦人也有聊過，他其實是前國科會主委。這個部分，其實我們後續還可以再觀察一下，我的理解是這個技術門檻很高，如果它有突破性，那麼在國際上應該是一個很大的新聞才對。我想後續還可以再觀察一下。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們也很擔心他們的宣傳其實有點擴大了，他說Q值可以穩定大於1，而且長達數小時，但他不是用剛剛所講的那兩個不同的趨勢，所以我想可能還是要懇切的觀察，因為我知道這間公司好像還在募資。說穿了，我們講白話一點，如果他廣告不實，其實我們也很擔心可能跟詐騙有關，還是要請核安會做深入的了解，可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，了解，謝謝，沒問題。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝郭委員。","接下來請吳沛憶委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪申翰","陳秀寳","萬美玲","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","張嘉郡","陳培瑜","張智倫","林倩綺","羅智強","吳春城","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠\n延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00004"}},"transcript":{"id":"153211","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153211","tool":"pyannote","id":"153211-pyannote"},"job_id":"36ddU1R86jNDhUzx","queued_at":"2024-05-30 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{\"word\": \"T\", \"start\": 389.188, \"end\": 389.208, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"E\", \"start\": 389.208, \"end\": 389.349, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"R\", \"start\": 389.349, \"end\": 389.409, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 389.409, \"end\": 389.589, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 389.589, \"end\": 390.53, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"團\"}, {\"word\": \"隊\"}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"跨\", \"start\": 390.53, \"end\": 390.67, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 390.67, \"end\": 390.93, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"團\"}, {\"word\": \"隊\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 390.93, \"end\": 391.13, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 391.13, \"end\": 391.371, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 391.371, \"end\": 391.511, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 391.511, \"end\": 391.571, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 391.571, \"end\": 391.671, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"沿\", \"start\": 391.671, \"end\": 391.731, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 391.731, \"end\": 391.851, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 391.851, \"end\": 392.071, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 392.071, \"end\": 392.372, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 392.372, \"end\": 392.632, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 392.632, \"end\": 392.852, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 392.852, \"end\": 392.872, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"個\"}]}, {\"start\": 409.269, \"end\": 419.514, \"text\": \"研究用基礎研究的什麼離實際運作即便國際上前沿的團隊離實際商轉運作都還有很大的一段距離\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"研\", \"start\": 409.269, \"end\": 409.489, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"究\", \"start\": 409.489, \"end\": 409.729, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 409.729, \"end\": 410.069, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 410.069, \"end\": 410.47, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"礎\"}, {\"word\": \"研\", \"start\": 410.47, \"end\": 410.71, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"究\", \"start\": 410.71, \"end\": 410.97, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 410.97, \"end\": 412.11, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 412.11, \"end\": 412.711, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"離\"}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"際\"}, {\"word\": \"運\"}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 412.711, \"end\": 413.191, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"即\", \"start\": 413.191, \"end\": 413.351, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"便\", \"start\": 413.351, \"end\": 413.951, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"際\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 413.951, \"end\": 414.231, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 414.231, \"end\": 414.451, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"沿\", \"start\": 414.451, \"end\": 414.652, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 414.652, \"end\": 416.272, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"團\"}, {\"word\": \"隊\"}, {\"word\": \"離\"}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"際\"}, {\"word\": \"商\", \"start\": 416.272, \"end\": 417.073, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"轉\"}, {\"word\": \"運\"}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 417.073, \"end\": 417.853, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 417.853, \"end\": 418.313, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 418.313, \"end\": 418.553, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 418.553, \"end\": 418.853, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 418.853, \"end\": 419.054, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 419.054, \"end\": 419.174, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 419.174, \"end\": 419.274, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"段\", \"start\": 419.274, \"end\": 419.494, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"距\", \"start\": 419.494, \"end\": 419.514, \"score\": 0.705}, {\"word\": \"離\"}]}, {\"start\": 421.968, \"end\": 447.254, \"text\": \"接下來我要問一下就是近年來其實關於所謂的核融合的這個技術其實我們都一直朝這個方面去努力了那2024年是不是有可能這個核融合它也有可能目前是沒有辦法達到的對不對但是我們從新聞報導當中其實發現了有一間比較特殊的公司在這裡我想要提出來我想這個部分\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 421.968, \"end\": 422.108, \"score\": 0.718}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 422.108, \"end\": 422.348, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 422.348, \"end\": 422.468, \"score\": 0.678}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 422.468, \"end\": 422.828, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 422.828, \"end\": 422.948, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 422.948, \"end\": 423.249, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 423.249, \"end\": 423.389, \"score\": 0.731}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 423.389, \"end\": 423.589, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"近\", \"start\": 423.589, \"end\": 423.729, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 423.729, \"end\": 424.029, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 424.029, \"end\": 425.049, 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{\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 428.67, \"end\": 428.79, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 428.79, \"end\": 428.93, \"score\": 0.742}, {\"word\": \"朝\", \"start\": 428.93, \"end\": 429.45, \"score\": 0.701}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 429.45, \"end\": 429.59, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 429.59, \"end\": 430.01, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 430.01, \"end\": 430.25, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"努\", \"start\": 430.25, \"end\": 430.45, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 430.45, \"end\": 430.61, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 430.61, \"end\": 431.15, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 431.15, \"end\": 431.91, \"score\": 0.673}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 431.91, \"end\": 432.451, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 432.451, \"end\": 432.531, \"score\": 0.958}, 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{\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 440.112, \"end\": 441.273, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"聞\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"導\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 441.273, \"end\": 441.533, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 441.533, \"end\": 442.313, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 442.313, \"end\": 442.473, \"score\": 0.724}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 442.473, \"end\": 442.713, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 442.713, \"end\": 443.193, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 443.193, \"end\": 443.653, \"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"特\", \"start\": 443.653, \"end\": 443.893, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"殊\", \"start\": 443.893, \"end\": 444.093, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 444.093, \"end\": 444.233, \"score\": 0.715}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 444.233, \"end\": 444.513, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 444.513, \"end\": 444.893, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 444.893, \"end\": 445.314, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 445.314, \"end\": 445.474, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 445.474, \"end\": 445.634, \"score\": 0.724}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 445.634, \"end\": 445.834, \"score\": 0.697}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 445.834, \"end\": 446.014, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 446.014, \"end\": 446.594, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 446.594, \"end\": 446.694, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 446.694, \"end\": 447.114, \"score\": 0.64}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 447.114, \"end\": 447.234, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 447.234, \"end\": 447.254, \"score\": 0.417}]}, {\"start\": 447.634, \"end\": 470.921, \"text\": \"我不曉得就是我們這個主委這邊有沒有概括性的知道就是說他們好像也不是做這兩塊剛剛我們介紹過的這個核融合的這兩個不同的研究方向可是他們在大篇幅的媒體報導當中說他們已經開始核融合而且還要把它所謂的商業化那這個部分\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 447.634, \"end\": 447.894, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 447.894, \"end\": 448.194, \"score\": 0.701}, {\"word\": \"曉\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 448.194, \"end\": 448.354, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 448.354, \"end\": 448.474, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 448.474, \"end\": 448.794, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 448.794, \"end\": 450.835, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 450.835, \"end\": 450.955, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 450.955, \"end\": 451.355, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 451.355, \"end\": 451.995, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 451.995, \"end\": 452.095, \"score\": 0.798}, 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\"en\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,146 --> 00:00:13,454\n謝 謝 主 席 , 有 請 經 濟 部 林 次 長 還 有 我 們 的 核 安 會 陳 主 委 是 , 我 們 請 主 委 跟 次 長 , 謝 謝\n\n2\n00:00:17,981 --> 00:00:45,417\n兩 位 早 安 我 想 這 個 臺 灣 在 使 用 核 電 其 實 碰 到 最 大 的 一 個 困 境 應 該 是 地 震 地 震 頻 傳 然 後 再 來 就 是 核 廢 料 處 理 的 一 個 問 題 我 想 這 應 該 是 目 前 碰 到 最 大 的 一 個 狀 況 那 我 再 次 想 請 教 一 下 這 個 我 們 的 這 個 次 長 的 部 分 其 實 我 的 孩 子 其 實 都 知 道 有 時 候 停 電 有 時 候 跳 電 它 並 不 是 缺 電 的 問 題\n\n3\n00:00:46,678 --> 00:01:02,246\n他 其 實 還 有 很 多 外 部 跟 內 部 的 一 些 問 題 對 不 對 並 不 是 因 為 臺 灣 缺 電 是 跳 電 不 一 定 是 缺 電 是 好 那 我 想 呢 現 行 的 一 個 法 規 喔 其 實 核 電 廠 要 研 議 其 實 必 須 要 經 過 很 嚴 密 的 一 個 計 畫 然 後\n\n4\n00:01:03,326 --> 00:01:22,132\n那 包 含 現 在 我 們 所 知 道 的 如 果 要 研 議 必 須 要 這 個 執 照 借 其 滿 之 前 就 是 5 到 1 5 年 中 間 就 要 提 出 這 樣 子 的 一 個 申 請 那 目 前 我 們 知 道 其 實 在 國 內 我 們 的 不 管 是 核 一 廠 或 者 是 我 們 的 核 二 廠 在 核 一 廠 的 部 分 其 實 我 們 重 要 的 一 些 設 備 已 經 慢 慢 都 移 除 了\n\n5\n00:01:22,632 --> 00:01:41,743\n所 以 重 啟 幾 乎 是 沒 有 可 能 演 繹 更 不 用 說 了 那 在 這 個 核 二 廠 的 部 分 其 實 核 廢 料 的 問 題 還 是 依 舊 存 在 那 就 算 有 些 某 些 我 們 的 這 個 立 委 有 一 些 執 念 就 是 說 還 要 想 要 再 做 重 啟 的 部 分 其 實 是 不 是 也 無 法 運 轉 核 二 的 部 分\n\n6\n00:01:43,624 --> 00:02:02,922\n我 想 這 個 法 規 面 已 經 很 明 確 的 規 範 住 他 是 不 可 能 再 重 啟 另 外 在 核 三 的 部 分 在 這 個 一 號 機 組 是 今 年 的 七 月 底 然 後 再 來 二 號 機 組 是 在 明 年 的 五 月 中 他 們 就 確 定 要 除 役 了 那 當 然 這 個 部 分 其 實 還 是 會 有 人 會\n\n7\n00:02:03,643 --> 00:02:05,564\n我 國 核 電 廠 延 役 主 任 委 員 會 主 任 委 員 會 主 任\n\n8\n00:02:27,857 --> 00:02:41,708\n的 問 題 和 二 目 前 其 實 就 算 要 再 重 啟 其 實 還 要 整 體 的 再 重 新 再 評 估 這 個 評 估 大 概 要 多 久 還 有 包 含 我 剛 剛 問 的 核 三 如 果 真 的 要 研 議 的 話 會 面 臨 到 什 麼 樣 的 法 律 跟 安 全 上 的 問 題\n\n9\n00:02:43,110 --> 00:02:58,387\n我 想 這 個 法 規 面 上 我 們 有 很 完 備 的 這 個 相 關 的 延 役 的 法 規 的 規 定 那 目 前 核 三 廠 不 管 是 一 號 機 或 二 號 機 都 已 經 過 了 延 役 的 一 個 這 個 這 個 申 請 的 時 間 那 依 照 法 規 規 範 他 是 不 可 能 再 進 行 所 謂 延 役 的 工 作\n\n10\n00:02:58,948 --> 00:03:02,109\n如 果 沒 有 研 議 , 如 果 沒 辦 法 重 啟 , 那 未 來 我 們 台 灣 的 用 電 會 不 會 受 到 影 響 ? 我 想 大 部 分 的 人 應 該 都 會 把 焦 點 放 在 這 一 塊 , 因 為 這 是 跟 他 們 切 身 有 關 係 的 。\n\n11\n00:03:18,633 --> 00:03:46,596\n是 , 那 我 們 經 濟 部 就 是 要 做 到 這 樣 的 一 個 穩 定 供 電 的 狀 況 那 我 們 會 去 預 估 詳 細 的 需 求 去 做 好 供 給 的 一 個 這 個 提 供 那 我 剛 剛 提 到 我 們 已 經 就 這 個 核 三 廠 的 一 個 一 號 機 或 二 號 機 他 們 要 停 止 運 轉 的 所 需 要 的 供 電 都 做 好 準 備 那 包 括 我 們 的 一 個 這 個 天 然 氣 的 電 廠 包 括 我 們 的 再 生 能 源 太 陽 光 電 或 者 是 離 岸 風 電 都 已 經 會 在 今 年 或 明 年 來 做 成 長 增 加\n\n12\n00:03:47,136 --> 00:04:03,153\n已 經 有 做 過 一 個 比 較 基 礎 的 一 個 數 據 上 的 一 個 評 估 嗎 ? 是 是 我 們 有 很 詳 細 的 一 個 評 估 跟 規 劃 所 以 目 前 就 算 我 們 的 核 三 其 實 我 們 也 不 會 有 所 謂 的 這 個 延 役 的 這 個 問 題 那 就 算 不 延 役 台 灣 其 實 沒 有 缺 電 的 問 題 可 以 這 樣 說 嗎 ? 這 個 是 我 們 努 力 在 做 到 的 一 個 事 情\n\n13\n00:04:04,244 --> 00:04:24,313\n好 那 接 下 來 我 想 要 問 的 就 是 所 謂 的 核 融 合 技 術 方 面 的 研 究 了 因 為 其 實 我 們 有 提 到 所 謂 的 這 個 劇 變 的 那 個 研 究 其 實 分 兩 個 不 同 的 部 分 包 含 其 實 另 外 一 個 趨 勢 其 中 的 一 個 趨 勢 是 這 個 磁 局 線 融 合 那 另 外 一 個 是 慣 性 局 線 融 合 那 我 們 台 灣 其 實 是\n\n14\n00:04:24,953 --> 00:04:26,754\n這 部 分 抱 歉 我 沒 有 很 深 入 的 了 解 我 可 不 可 以 請 台 電 來 回 答\n\n15\n00:04:50,675 --> 00:05:02,714\n主 要 是 因 為 它 經 費 的 問 題 因 為 這 個 大 概 跨 國 最 早 這 個 計 畫 沒 錯 3 0 年 前 發 起 的 當 時 大 概 有 7 個 國 家 現 在 我 記 得 已 經 擴 充 到 1 7 個 國 家 所 以 這 個 是 比 較 主 流 的 一 個 計 畫 嗎 目 前 來 講 是 國 際 比 較 主 流 的\n\n16\n00:05:05,618 --> 00:05:30,527\n但 是 這 個 慣 性 局 限 融 合 的 部 分 其 實 美 國 在 2 0 2 2 年 的 年 底 它 的 Q 值 已 經 首 次 大 於 1 也 就 是 說 它 在 這 個 部 分 它 是 提 前 先 達 標 了 那 為 什 麼 我 們 還 是 比 較 堅 持 在 所 謂 的 這 個 次 局 限 融 合 這 個 部 分 我 們 比 較 聚 焦 在 這 個 基 本 上 前 面 那 一 個 有 關 於 所 謂 的 所 謂 的 托 克 馬 克 那 個 機 型 來 講 現 在 是 國 際 的 主 流\n\n17\n00:05:33,608 --> 00:06:00,872\n底 下 那 個 是 在 加 州 的 舊 金 山 的 一 個 國 家 實 驗 室 這 個 實 驗 室 因 為 可 是 它 達 到 所 謂 的 淨 值 的 部 分 大 概 我 記 得 大 概 只 有 0 . 1 秒 左 右 所 以 它 還 未 來 如 果 在 發 電 上 還 有 發 電 效 率 的 損 失 所 以 這 一 塊 來 講 目 前 在 國 際 上 比 較 傾 向 於 不 是 一 個 主 流 因 為 它 是 用 脈 衝 式 的 這 種 對 撞 去 做 一 個 核 融 合 的\n\n18\n00:06:01,292 --> 00:06:28,188\n我 們 在 這 個 持 續 線 的 融 合 的 部 分 我 們 的 計 畫 大 概 是 什 麼 時 候 可 以 達 到 目 前 來 講 就 我 知 道 大 概 國 研 院 這 裡 會 有 一 個 計 畫 在 走 什 麼 樣 的 計 畫 在 走 這 個 部 分 其 實 是 一 個 國 科 會 補 助 的 一 個 整 合 型 計 畫 那 麼 有 五 個 子 計 畫 那 兩 年 一 起 總 共 有 四 年 那 麼 他 其 實 是 算 是 一 個 基 礎 研 究\n\n19\n00:06:29,088 --> 00:06:32,872\n國 際 的 I T E R 、 法 國 的 團 隊 、 跨 國 的 團 隊 其 實 是 非 常 前 沿 我 想 我 們 這 個 只 是 一 個\n\n20\n00:06:49,269 --> 00:06:59,514\n研 究 用 基 礎 研 究 的 什 麼 離 實 際 運 作 即 便 國 際 上 前 沿 的 團 隊 離 實 際 商 轉 運 作 都 還 有 很 大 的 一 段 距 離\n\n21\n00:07:01,968 --> 00:07:27,254\n接 下 來 我 要 問 一 下 就 是 近 年 來 其 實 關 於 所 謂 的 核 融 合 的 這 個 技 術 其 實 我 們 都 一 直 朝 這 個 方 面 去 努 力 了 那 2 0 2 4 年 是 不 是 有 可 能 這 個 核 融 合 它 也 有 可 能 目 前 是 沒 有 辦 法 達 到 的 對 不 對 但 是 我 們 從 新 聞 報 導 當 中 其 實 發 現 了 有 一 間 比 較 特 殊 的 公 司 在 這 裡 我 想 要 提 出 來 我 想 這 個 部 分\n\n22\n00:07:27,634 --> 00:07:50,921\n我 不 曉 得 就 是 我 們 這 個 主 委 這 邊 有 沒 有 概 括 性 的 知 道 就 是 說 他 們 好 像 也 不 是 做 這 兩 塊 剛 剛 我 們 介 紹 過 的 這 個 核 融 合 的 這 兩 個 不 同 的 研 究 方 向 可 是 他 們 在 大 篇 幅 的 媒 體 報 導 當 中 說 他 們 已 經 開 始 核 融 合 而 且 還 要 把 它 所 謂 的 商 業 化 那 這 個 部 分\n\n23\n00:07:51,801 --> 00:08:00,619\n我 們 有 沒 有 去 觀 察 或 者 我 們 有 沒 有 去 關 切 到 底 這 間 公 司 他 所 說 的 這 個 核 融 核 的 技 巧 核 融 核 的 這 個 技 術 是 真 的 如 他 所 說 的 是 這 樣 嗎\n\n24\n00:08:01,944 --> 00:08:29,232\n我 想 這 個 部 分 我 大 概 有 一 些 了 解 那 麼 我 跟 其 中 一 位 創 辦 人 也 有 聊 過 那 麼 他 其 實 是 前 國 科 委 主 委 那 麼 這 個 部 分 其 實 我 們 後 續 還 可 以 再 觀 察 一 下 那 麼 我 的 理 解 是 這 個 技 術 門 檻 很 高 那 麼 如 果 他 有 一 個 很 突 破 性 那 麼 在 國 際 上 應 該 是 一 個 很 大 的 新 聞 才 對\n\n25\n00:08:31,191 --> 00:08:53,666\n我 想 後 續 還 可 以 再 觀 察 一 下 因 為 其 實 我 們 也 很 擔 心 他 的 宣 傳 其 實 有 點 擴 大 了 就 是 說 他 講 說 他 的 Q 值 可 以 穩 定 大 於 1 而 且 長 達 數 小 時 但 他 剛 剛 不 是 用 剛 剛 所 講 的 那 兩 個 不 同 的 一 個 趨 勢 所 以 這 個 部 分 我 想 可 能 還 是 要 懇 切 的 觀 察 因 為 我 知 道 這 間 公 司 好 像 還 在 募 資\n\n26\n00:08:54,787 --> 00:08:54,927\n謝 謝 主 席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7146\t13454\t謝謝主席,有請經濟部林次長還有我們的核安會陳主委是,我們請主委跟次長,謝謝\n17981\t45417\t兩位早安我想這個臺灣在使用核電其實碰到最大的一個困境應該是地震地震頻傳然後再來就是核廢料處理的一個問題我想這應該是目前碰到最大的一個狀況那我再次想請教一下這個我們的這個次長的部分其實我的孩子其實都知道有時候停電有時候跳電它並不是缺電的問題\n46678\t62246\t他其實還有很多外部跟內部的一些問題對不對並不是因為臺灣缺電是跳電不一定是缺電是好那我想呢現行的一個法規喔其實核電廠要研議其實必須要經過很嚴密的一個計畫然後\n63326\t82132\t那包含現在我們所知道的如果要研議必須要這個執照借其滿之前就是5到15年中間就要提出這樣子的一個申請那目前我們知道其實在國內我們的不管是核一廠或者是我們的核二廠在核一廠的部分其實我們重要的一些設備已經慢慢都移除了\n82632\t101743\t所以重啟幾乎是沒有可能演繹更不用說了那在這個核二廠的部分其實核廢料的問題還是依舊存在那就算有些某些我們的這個立委有一些執念就是說還要想要再做重啟的部分其實是不是也無法運轉核二的部分\n103624\t122922\t我想這個法規面已經很明確的規範住他是不可能再重啟另外在核三的部分在這個一號機組是今年的七月底然後再來二號機組是在明年的五月中他們就確定要除役了那當然這個部分其實還是會有人會\n123643\t125564\t我國核電廠延役主任委員會主任委員會主任\n147857\t161708\t的問題和二目前其實就算要再重啟其實還要整體的再重新再評估這個評估大概要多久還有包含我剛剛問的核三如果真的要研議的話會面臨到什麼樣的法律跟安全上的問題\n163110\t178387\t我想這個法規面上我們有很完備的這個相關的延役的法規的規定那目前核三廠不管是一號機或二號機都已經過了延役的一個這個這個申請的時間那依照法規規範他是不可能再進行所謂延役的工作\n178948\t182109\t如果沒有研議,如果沒辦法重啟,那未來我們台灣的用電會不會受到影響?我想大部分的人應該都會把焦點放在這一塊,因為這是跟他們切身有關係的。\n198633\t226596\t是,那我們經濟部就是要做到這樣的一個穩定供電的狀況那我們會去預估詳細的需求去做好供給的一個這個提供那我剛剛提到我們已經就這個核三廠的一個一號機或二號機他們要停止運轉的所需要的供電都做好準備那包括我們的一個這個天然氣的電廠包括我們的再生能源太陽光電或者是離岸風電都已經會在今年或明年來做成長增加\n227136\t243153\t已經有做過一個比較基礎的一個數據上的一個評估嗎?是 是 我們有很詳細的一個評估跟規劃所以目前就算我們的核三其實我們也不會有所謂的這個延役的這個問題那就算不延役台灣其實沒有缺電的問題可以這樣說嗎?這個是我們努力在做到的一個事情\n244244\t264313\t好那接下來我想要問的就是所謂的核融合技術方面的研究了因為其實我們有提到所謂的這個劇變的那個研究其實分兩個不同的部分包含其實另外一個趨勢其中的一個趨勢是這個磁局線融合那另外一個是慣性局線融合那我們台灣其實是\n264953\t266754\t這部分抱歉我沒有很深入的了解我可不可以請台電來回答\n290675\t302714\t主要是因為它經費的問題因為這個大概跨國最早這個計畫沒錯30年前發起的當時大概有7個國家現在我記得已經擴充到17個國家所以這個是比較主流的一個計畫嗎目前來講是國際比較主流的\n305618\t330527\t但是這個慣性局限融合的部分其實美國在2022年的年底它的Q值已經首次大於1也就是說它在這個部分它是提前先達標了那為什麼我們還是比較堅持在所謂的這個次局限融合這個部分我們比較聚焦在這個基本上前面那一個有關於所謂的所謂的托克馬克那個機型來講現在是國際的主流\n333608\t360872\t底下那個是在加州的舊金山的一個國家實驗室這個實驗室因為可是它達到所謂的淨值的部分大概我記得大概只有0.1秒左右所以它還未來如果在發電上還有發電效率的損失所以這一塊來講目前在國際上比較傾向於不是一個主流因為它是用脈衝式的這種對撞去做一個核融合的\n361292\t388188\t我們在這個持續線的融合的部分我們的計畫大概是什麼時候可以達到目前來講就我知道大概國研院這裡會有一個計畫在走什麼樣的計畫在走這個部分其實是一個國科會補助的一個整合型計畫那麼有五個子計畫那兩年一起總共有四年那麼他其實是算是一個基礎研究\n389088\t392872\t國際的ITER、法國的團隊、跨國的團隊其實是非常前沿我想我們這個只是一個\n409269\t419514\t研究用基礎研究的什麼離實際運作即便國際上前沿的團隊離實際商轉運作都還有很大的一段距離\n421968\t447254\t接下來我要問一下就是近年來其實關於所謂的核融合的這個技術其實我們都一直朝這個方面去努力了那2024年是不是有可能這個核融合它也有可能目前是沒有辦法達到的對不對但是我們從新聞報導當中其實發現了有一間比較特殊的公司在這裡我想要提出來我想這個部分\n447634\t470921\t我不曉得就是我們這個主委這邊有沒有概括性的知道就是說他們好像也不是做這兩塊剛剛我們介紹過的這個核融合的這兩個不同的研究方向可是他們在大篇幅的媒體報導當中說他們已經開始核融合而且還要把它所謂的商業化那這個部分\n471801\t480619\t我們有沒有去觀察或者我們有沒有去關切到底這間公司他所說的這個核融核的技巧核融核的這個技術是真的如他所說的是這樣嗎\n481944\t509232\t我想這個部分我大概有一些了解那麼我跟其中一位創辦人也有聊過那麼他其實是前國科委主委那麼這個部分其實我們後續還可以再觀察一下那麼我的理解是這個技術門檻很高那麼如果他有一個很突破性那麼在國際上應該是一個很大的新聞才對\n511191\t533666\t我想後續還可以再觀察一下因為其實我們也很擔心他的宣傳其實有點擴大了就是說他講說他的Q值可以穩定大於1而且長達數小時但他剛剛不是用剛剛所講的那兩個不同的一個趨勢所以這個部分我想可能還是要懇切的觀察因為我知道這間公司好像還在募資\n534787\t534927\t謝謝主席\n","txt":"謝謝主席,有請經濟部林次長還有我們的核安會陳主委是,我們請主委跟次長,謝謝\n兩位早安我想這個臺灣在使用核電其實碰到最大的一個困境應該是地震地震頻傳然後再來就是核廢料處理的一個問題我想這應該是目前碰到最大的一個狀況那我再次想請教一下這個我們的這個次長的部分其實我的孩子其實都知道有時候停電有時候跳電它並不是缺電的問題\n他其實還有很多外部跟內部的一些問題對不對並不是因為臺灣缺電是跳電不一定是缺電是好那我想呢現行的一個法規喔其實核電廠要研議其實必須要經過很嚴密的一個計畫然後\n那包含現在我們所知道的如果要研議必須要這個執照借其滿之前就是5到15年中間就要提出這樣子的一個申請那目前我們知道其實在國內我們的不管是核一廠或者是我們的核二廠在核一廠的部分其實我們重要的一些設備已經慢慢都移除了\n所以重啟幾乎是沒有可能演繹更不用說了那在這個核二廠的部分其實核廢料的問題還是依舊存在那就算有些某些我們的這個立委有一些執念就是說還要想要再做重啟的部分其實是不是也無法運轉核二的部分\n我想這個法規面已經很明確的規範住他是不可能再重啟另外在核三的部分在這個一號機組是今年的七月底然後再來二號機組是在明年的五月中他們就確定要除役了那當然這個部分其實還是會有人會\n我國核電廠延役主任委員會主任委員會主任\n的問題和二目前其實就算要再重啟其實還要整體的再重新再評估這個評估大概要多久還有包含我剛剛問的核三如果真的要研議的話會面臨到什麼樣的法律跟安全上的問題\n我想這個法規面上我們有很完備的這個相關的延役的法規的規定那目前核三廠不管是一號機或二號機都已經過了延役的一個這個這個申請的時間那依照法規規範他是不可能再進行所謂延役的工作\n如果沒有研議,如果沒辦法重啟,那未來我們台灣的用電會不會受到影響?我想大部分的人應該都會把焦點放在這一塊,因為這是跟他們切身有關係的。\n是,那我們經濟部就是要做到這樣的一個穩定供電的狀況那我們會去預估詳細的需求去做好供給的一個這個提供那我剛剛提到我們已經就這個核三廠的一個一號機或二號機他們要停止運轉的所需要的供電都做好準備那包括我們的一個這個天然氣的電廠包括我們的再生能源太陽光電或者是離岸風電都已經會在今年或明年來做成長增加\n已經有做過一個比較基礎的一個數據上的一個評估嗎?是 是 我們有很詳細的一個評估跟規劃所以目前就算我們的核三其實我們也不會有所謂的這個延役的這個問題那就算不延役台灣其實沒有缺電的問題可以這樣說嗎?這個是我們努力在做到的一個事情\n好那接下來我想要問的就是所謂的核融合技術方面的研究了因為其實我們有提到所謂的這個劇變的那個研究其實分兩個不同的部分包含其實另外一個趨勢其中的一個趨勢是這個磁局線融合那另外一個是慣性局線融合那我們台灣其實是\n這部分抱歉我沒有很深入的了解我可不可以請台電來回答\n主要是因為它經費的問題因為這個大概跨國最早這個計畫沒錯30年前發起的當時大概有7個國家現在我記得已經擴充到17個國家所以這個是比較主流的一個計畫嗎目前來講是國際比較主流的\n但是這個慣性局限融合的部分其實美國在2022年的年底它的Q值已經首次大於1也就是說它在這個部分它是提前先達標了那為什麼我們還是比較堅持在所謂的這個次局限融合這個部分我們比較聚焦在這個基本上前面那一個有關於所謂的所謂的托克馬克那個機型來講現在是國際的主流\n底下那個是在加州的舊金山的一個國家實驗室這個實驗室因為可是它達到所謂的淨值的部分大概我記得大概只有0.1秒左右所以它還未來如果在發電上還有發電效率的損失所以這一塊來講目前在國際上比較傾向於不是一個主流因為它是用脈衝式的這種對撞去做一個核融合的\n我們在這個持續線的融合的部分我們的計畫大概是什麼時候可以達到目前來講就我知道大概國研院這裡會有一個計畫在走什麼樣的計畫在走這個部分其實是一個國科會補助的一個整合型計畫那麼有五個子計畫那兩年一起總共有四年那麼他其實是算是一個基礎研究\n國際的ITER、法國的團隊、跨國的團隊其實是非常前沿我想我們這個只是一個\n研究用基礎研究的什麼離實際運作即便國際上前沿的團隊離實際商轉運作都還有很大的一段距離\n接下來我要問一下就是近年來其實關於所謂的核融合的這個技術其實我們都一直朝這個方面去努力了那2024年是不是有可能這個核融合它也有可能目前是沒有辦法達到的對不對但是我們從新聞報導當中其實發現了有一間比較特殊的公司在這裡我想要提出來我想這個部分\n我不曉得就是我們這個主委這邊有沒有概括性的知道就是說他們好像也不是做這兩塊剛剛我們介紹過的這個核融合的這兩個不同的研究方向可是他們在大篇幅的媒體報導當中說他們已經開始核融合而且還要把它所謂的商業化那這個部分\n我們有沒有去觀察或者我們有沒有去關切到底這間公司他所說的這個核融核的技巧核融核的這個技術是真的如他所說的是這樣嗎\n我想這個部分我大概有一些了解那麼我跟其中一位創辦人也有聊過那麼他其實是前國科委主委那麼這個部分其實我們後續還可以再觀察一下那麼我的理解是這個技術門檻很高那麼如果他有一個很突破性那麼在國際上應該是一個很大的新聞才對\n我想後續還可以再觀察一下因為其實我們也很擔心他的宣傳其實有點擴大了就是說他講說他的Q值可以穩定大於1而且長達數小時但他剛剛不是用剛剛所講的那兩個不同的一個趨勢所以這個部分我想可能還是要懇切的觀察因為我知道這間公司好像還在募資\n謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.146 --> 00:13.454\n謝 謝 主 席 , 有 請 經 濟 部 林 次 長 還 有 我 們 的 核 安 會 陳 主 委 是 , 我 們 請 主 委 跟 次 長 , 謝 謝\n\n00:17.981 --> 00:45.417\n兩 位 早 安 我 想 這 個 臺 灣 在 使 用 核 電 其 實 碰 到 最 大 的 一 個 困 境 應 該 是 地 震 地 震 頻 傳 然 後 再 來 就 是 核 廢 料 處 理 的 一 個 問 題 我 想 這 應 該 是 目 前 碰 到 最 大 的 一 個 狀 況 那 我 再 次 想 請 教 一 下 這 個 我 們 的 這 個 次 長 的 部 分 其 實 我 的 孩 子 其 實 都 知 道 有 時 候 停 電 有 時 候 跳 電 它 並 不 是 缺 電 的 問 題\n\n00:46.678 --> 01:02.246\n他 其 實 還 有 很 多 外 部 跟 內 部 的 一 些 問 題 對 不 對 並 不 是 因 為 臺 灣 缺 電 是 跳 電 不 一 定 是 缺 電 是 好 那 我 想 呢 現 行 的 一 個 法 規 喔 其 實 核 電 廠 要 研 議 其 實 必 須 要 經 過 很 嚴 密 的 一 個 計 畫 然 後\n\n01:03.326 --> 01:22.132\n那 包 含 現 在 我 們 所 知 道 的 如 果 要 研 議 必 須 要 這 個 執 照 借 其 滿 之 前 就 是 5 到 1 5 年 中 間 就 要 提 出 這 樣 子 的 一 個 申 請 那 目 前 我 們 知 道 其 實 在 國 內 我 們 的 不 管 是 核 一 廠 或 者 是 我 們 的 核 二 廠 在 核 一 廠 的 部 分 其 實 我 們 重 要 的 一 些 設 備 已 經 慢 慢 都 移 除 了\n\n01:22.632 --> 01:41.743\n所 以 重 啟 幾 乎 是 沒 有 可 能 演 繹 更 不 用 說 了 那 在 這 個 核 二 廠 的 部 分 其 實 核 廢 料 的 問 題 還 是 依 舊 存 在 那 就 算 有 些 某 些 我 們 的 這 個 立 委 有 一 些 執 念 就 是 說 還 要 想 要 再 做 重 啟 的 部 分 其 實 是 不 是 也 無 法 運 轉 核 二 的 部 分\n\n01:43.624 --> 02:02.922\n我 想 這 個 法 規 面 已 經 很 明 確 的 規 範 住 他 是 不 可 能 再 重 啟 另 外 在 核 三 的 部 分 在 這 個 一 號 機 組 是 今 年 的 七 月 底 然 後 再 來 二 號 機 組 是 在 明 年 的 五 月 中 他 們 就 確 定 要 除 役 了 那 當 然 這 個 部 分 其 實 還 是 會 有 人 會\n\n02:03.643 --> 02:05.564\n我 國 核 電 廠 延 役 主 任 委 員 會 主 任 委 員 會 主 任\n\n02:27.857 --> 02:41.708\n的 問 題 和 二 目 前 其 實 就 算 要 再 重 啟 其 實 還 要 整 體 的 再 重 新 再 評 估 這 個 評 估 大 概 要 多 久 還 有 包 含 我 剛 剛 問 的 核 三 如 果 真 的 要 研 議 的 話 會 面 臨 到 什 麼 樣 的 法 律 跟 安 全 上 的 問 題\n\n02:43.110 --> 02:58.387\n我 想 這 個 法 規 面 上 我 們 有 很 完 備 的 這 個 相 關 的 延 役 的 法 規 的 規 定 那 目 前 核 三 廠 不 管 是 一 號 機 或 二 號 機 都 已 經 過 了 延 役 的 一 個 這 個 這 個 申 請 的 時 間 那 依 照 法 規 規 範 他 是 不 可 能 再 進 行 所 謂 延 役 的 工 作\n\n02:58.948 --> 03:02.109\n如 果 沒 有 研 議 , 如 果 沒 辦 法 重 啟 , 那 未 來 我 們 台 灣 的 用 電 會 不 會 受 到 影 響 ? 我 想 大 部 分 的 人 應 該 都 會 把 焦 點 放 在 這 一 塊 , 因 為 這 是 跟 他 們 切 身 有 關 係 的 。\n\n03:18.633 --> 03:46.596\n是 , 那 我 們 經 濟 部 就 是 要 做 到 這 樣 的 一 個 穩 定 供 電 的 狀 況 那 我 們 會 去 預 估 詳 細 的 需 求 去 做 好 供 給 的 一 個 這 個 提 供 那 我 剛 剛 提 到 我 們 已 經 就 這 個 核 三 廠 的 一 個 一 號 機 或 二 號 機 他 們 要 停 止 運 轉 的 所 需 要 的 供 電 都 做 好 準 備 那 包 括 我 們 的 一 個 這 個 天 然 氣 的 電 廠 包 括 我 們 的 再 生 能 源 太 陽 光 電 或 者 是 離 岸 風 電 都 已 經 會 在 今 年 或 明 年 來 做 成 長 增 加\n\n03:47.136 --> 04:03.153\n已 經 有 做 過 一 個 比 較 基 礎 的 一 個 數 據 上 的 一 個 評 估 嗎 ? 是 是 我 們 有 很 詳 細 的 一 個 評 估 跟 規 劃 所 以 目 前 就 算 我 們 的 核 三 其 實 我 們 也 不 會 有 所 謂 的 這 個 延 役 的 這 個 問 題 那 就 算 不 延 役 台 灣 其 實 沒 有 缺 電 的 問 題 可 以 這 樣 說 嗎 ? 這 個 是 我 們 努 力 在 做 到 的 一 個 事 情\n\n04:04.244 --> 04:24.313\n好 那 接 下 來 我 想 要 問 的 就 是 所 謂 的 核 融 合 技 術 方 面 的 研 究 了 因 為 其 實 我 們 有 提 到 所 謂 的 這 個 劇 變 的 那 個 研 究 其 實 分 兩 個 不 同 的 部 分 包 含 其 實 另 外 一 個 趨 勢 其 中 的 一 個 趨 勢 是 這 個 磁 局 線 融 合 那 另 外 一 個 是 慣 性 局 線 融 合 那 我 們 台 灣 其 實 是\n\n04:24.953 --> 04:26.754\n這 部 分 抱 歉 我 沒 有 很 深 入 的 了 解 我 可 不 可 以 請 台 電 來 回 答\n\n04:50.675 --> 05:02.714\n主 要 是 因 為 它 經 費 的 問 題 因 為 這 個 大 概 跨 國 最 早 這 個 計 畫 沒 錯 3 0 年 前 發 起 的 當 時 大 概 有 7 個 國 家 現 在 我 記 得 已 經 擴 充 到 1 7 個 國 家 所 以 這 個 是 比 較 主 流 的 一 個 計 畫 嗎 目 前 來 講 是 國 際 比 較 主 流 的\n\n05:05.618 --> 05:30.527\n但 是 這 個 慣 性 局 限 融 合 的 部 分 其 實 美 國 在 2 0 2 2 年 的 年 底 它 的 Q 值 已 經 首 次 大 於 1 也 就 是 說 它 在 這 個 部 分 它 是 提 前 先 達 標 了 那 為 什 麼 我 們 還 是 比 較 堅 持 在 所 謂 的 這 個 次 局 限 融 合 這 個 部 分 我 們 比 較 聚 焦 在 這 個 基 本 上 前 面 那 一 個 有 關 於 所 謂 的 所 謂 的 托 克 馬 克 那 個 機 型 來 講 現 在 是 國 際 的 主 流\n\n05:33.608 --> 06:00.872\n底 下 那 個 是 在 加 州 的 舊 金 山 的 一 個 國 家 實 驗 室 這 個 實 驗 室 因 為 可 是 它 達 到 所 謂 的 淨 值 的 部 分 大 概 我 記 得 大 概 只 有 0 . 1 秒 左 右 所 以 它 還 未 來 如 果 在 發 電 上 還 有 發 電 效 率 的 損 失 所 以 這 一 塊 來 講 目 前 在 國 際 上 比 較 傾 向 於 不 是 一 個 主 流 因 為 它 是 用 脈 衝 式 的 這 種 對 撞 去 做 一 個 核 融 合 的\n\n06:01.292 --> 06:28.188\n我 們 在 這 個 持 續 線 的 融 合 的 部 分 我 們 的 計 畫 大 概 是 什 麼 時 候 可 以 達 到 目 前 來 講 就 我 知 道 大 概 國 研 院 這 裡 會 有 一 個 計 畫 在 走 什 麼 樣 的 計 畫 在 走 這 個 部 分 其 實 是 一 個 國 科 會 補 助 的 一 個 整 合 型 計 畫 那 麼 有 五 個 子 計 畫 那 兩 年 一 起 總 共 有 四 年 那 麼 他 其 實 是 算 是 一 個 基 礎 研 究\n\n06:29.088 --> 06:32.872\n國 際 的 I T E R 、 法 國 的 團 隊 、 跨 國 的 團 隊 其 實 是 非 常 前 沿 我 想 我 們 這 個 只 是 一 個\n\n06:49.269 --> 06:59.514\n研 究 用 基 礎 研 究 的 什 麼 離 實 際 運 作 即 便 國 際 上 前 沿 的 團 隊 離 實 際 商 轉 運 作 都 還 有 很 大 的 一 段 距 離\n\n07:01.968 --> 07:27.254\n接 下 來 我 要 問 一 下 就 是 近 年 來 其 實 關 於 所 謂 的 核 融 合 的 這 個 技 術 其 實 我 們 都 一 直 朝 這 個 方 面 去 努 力 了 那 2 0 2 4 年 是 不 是 有 可 能 這 個 核 融 合 它 也 有 可 能 目 前 是 沒 有 辦 法 達 到 的 對 不 對 但 是 我 們 從 新 聞 報 導 當 中 其 實 發 現 了 有 一 間 比 較 特 殊 的 公 司 在 這 裡 我 想 要 提 出 來 我 想 這 個 部 分\n\n07:27.634 --> 07:50.921\n我 不 曉 得 就 是 我 們 這 個 主 委 這 邊 有 沒 有 概 括 性 的 知 道 就 是 說 他 們 好 像 也 不 是 做 這 兩 塊 剛 剛 我 們 介 紹 過 的 這 個 核 融 合 的 這 兩 個 不 同 的 研 究 方 向 可 是 他 們 在 大 篇 幅 的 媒 體 報 導 當 中 說 他 們 已 經 開 始 核 融 合 而 且 還 要 把 它 所 謂 的 商 業 化 那 這 個 部 分\n\n07:51.801 --> 08:00.619\n我 們 有 沒 有 去 觀 察 或 者 我 們 有 沒 有 去 關 切 到 底 這 間 公 司 他 所 說 的 這 個 核 融 核 的 技 巧 核 融 核 的 這 個 技 術 是 真 的 如 他 所 說 的 是 這 樣 嗎\n\n08:01.944 --> 08:29.232\n我 想 這 個 部 分 我 大 概 有 一 些 了 解 那 麼 我 跟 其 中 一 位 創 辦 人 也 有 聊 過 那 麼 他 其 實 是 前 國 科 委 主 委 那 麼 這 個 部 分 其 實 我 們 後 續 還 可 以 再 觀 察 一 下 那 麼 我 的 理 解 是 這 個 技 術 門 檻 很 高 那 麼 如 果 他 有 一 個 很 突 破 性 那 麼 在 國 際 上 應 該 是 一 個 很 大 的 新 聞 才 對\n\n08:31.191 --> 08:53.666\n我 想 後 續 還 可 以 再 觀 察 一 下 因 為 其 實 我 們 也 很 擔 心 他 的 宣 傳 其 實 有 點 擴 大 了 就 是 說 他 講 說 他 的 Q 值 可 以 穩 定 大 於 1 而 且 長 達 數 小 時 但 他 剛 剛 不 是 用 剛 剛 所 講 的 那 兩 個 不 同 的 一 個 趨 勢 所 以 這 個 部 分 我 想 可 能 還 是 要 懇 切 的 觀 察 因 為 我 知 道 這 間 公 司 好 像 還 在 募 資\n\n08:54.787 --> 08:54.927\n謝 謝 主 席\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.146,"end":13.454,"text":"謝謝主席,有請經濟部林次長還有我們的核安會陳主委是,我們請主委跟次長,謝謝"},{"start":17.981,"end":45.417,"text":"兩位早安我想這個臺灣在使用核電其實碰到最大的一個困境應該是地震地震頻傳然後再來就是核廢料處理的一個問題我想這應該是目前碰到最大的一個狀況那我再次想請教一下這個我們的這個次長的部分其實我的孩子其實都知道有時候停電有時候跳電它並不是缺電的問題"},{"start":46.678,"end":62.246,"text":"他其實還有很多外部跟內部的一些問題對不對並不是因為臺灣缺電是跳電不一定是缺電是好那我想呢現行的一個法規喔其實核電廠要研議其實必須要經過很嚴密的一個計畫然後"},{"start":63.326,"end":82.132,"text":"那包含現在我們所知道的如果要研議必須要這個執照借其滿之前就是5到15年中間就要提出這樣子的一個申請那目前我們知道其實在國內我們的不管是核一廠或者是我們的核二廠在核一廠的部分其實我們重要的一些設備已經慢慢都移除了"},{"start":82.632,"end":101.743,"text":"所以重啟幾乎是沒有可能演繹更不用說了那在這個核二廠的部分其實核廢料的問題還是依舊存在那就算有些某些我們的這個立委有一些執念就是說還要想要再做重啟的部分其實是不是也無法運轉核二的部分"},{"start":103.624,"end":122.922,"text":"我想這個法規面已經很明確的規範住他是不可能再重啟另外在核三的部分在這個一號機組是今年的七月底然後再來二號機組是在明年的五月中他們就確定要除役了那當然這個部分其實還是會有人會"},{"start":123.643,"end":125.564,"text":"我國核電廠延役主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":147.857,"end":161.708,"text":"的問題和二目前其實就算要再重啟其實還要整體的再重新再評估這個評估大概要多久還有包含我剛剛問的核三如果真的要研議的話會面臨到什麼樣的法律跟安全上的問題"},{"start":163.11,"end":178.387,"text":"我想這個法規面上我們有很完備的這個相關的延役的法規的規定那目前核三廠不管是一號機或二號機都已經過了延役的一個這個這個申請的時間那依照法規規範他是不可能再進行所謂延役的工作"},{"start":178.948,"end":182.109,"text":"如果沒有研議,如果沒辦法重啟,那未來我們台灣的用電會不會受到影響?我想大部分的人應該都會把焦點放在這一塊,因為這是跟他們切身有關係的。"},{"start":198.633,"end":226.596,"text":"是,那我們經濟部就是要做到這樣的一個穩定供電的狀況那我們會去預估詳細的需求去做好供給的一個這個提供那我剛剛提到我們已經就這個核三廠的一個一號機或二號機他們要停止運轉的所需要的供電都做好準備那包括我們的一個這個天然氣的電廠包括我們的再生能源太陽光電或者是離岸風電都已經會在今年或明年來做成長增加"},{"start":227.136,"end":243.153,"text":"已經有做過一個比較基礎的一個數據上的一個評估嗎?是 是 我們有很詳細的一個評估跟規劃所以目前就算我們的核三其實我們也不會有所謂的這個延役的這個問題那就算不延役台灣其實沒有缺電的問題可以這樣說嗎?這個是我們努力在做到的一個事情"},{"start":244.244,"end":264.313,"text":"好那接下來我想要問的就是所謂的核融合技術方面的研究了因為其實我們有提到所謂的這個劇變的那個研究其實分兩個不同的部分包含其實另外一個趨勢其中的一個趨勢是這個磁局線融合那另外一個是慣性局線融合那我們台灣其實是"},{"start":264.953,"end":266.754,"text":"這部分抱歉我沒有很深入的了解我可不可以請台電來回答"},{"start":290.675,"end":302.714,"text":"主要是因為它經費的問題因為這個大概跨國最早這個計畫沒錯30年前發起的當時大概有7個國家現在我記得已經擴充到17個國家所以這個是比較主流的一個計畫嗎目前來講是國際比較主流的"},{"start":305.618,"end":330.527,"text":"但是這個慣性局限融合的部分其實美國在2022年的年底它的Q值已經首次大於1也就是說它在這個部分它是提前先達標了那為什麼我們還是比較堅持在所謂的這個次局限融合這個部分我們比較聚焦在這個基本上前面那一個有關於所謂的所謂的托克馬克那個機型來講現在是國際的主流"},{"start":333.608,"end":360.872,"text":"底下那個是在加州的舊金山的一個國家實驗室這個實驗室因為可是它達到所謂的淨值的部分大概我記得大概只有0.1秒左右所以它還未來如果在發電上還有發電效率的損失所以這一塊來講目前在國際上比較傾向於不是一個主流因為它是用脈衝式的這種對撞去做一個核融合的"},{"start":361.292,"end":388.188,"text":"我們在這個持續線的融合的部分我們的計畫大概是什麼時候可以達到目前來講就我知道大概國研院這裡會有一個計畫在走什麼樣的計畫在走這個部分其實是一個國科會補助的一個整合型計畫那麼有五個子計畫那兩年一起總共有四年那麼他其實是算是一個基礎研究"},{"start":389.088,"end":392.872,"text":"國際的ITER、法國的團隊、跨國的團隊其實是非常前沿我想我們這個只是一個"},{"start":409.269,"end":419.514,"text":"研究用基礎研究的什麼離實際運作即便國際上前沿的團隊離實際商轉運作都還有很大的一段距離"},{"start":421.968,"end":447.254,"text":"接下來我要問一下就是近年來其實關於所謂的核融合的這個技術其實我們都一直朝這個方面去努力了那2024年是不是有可能這個核融合它也有可能目前是沒有辦法達到的對不對但是我們從新聞報導當中其實發現了有一間比較特殊的公司在這裡我想要提出來我想這個部分"},{"start":447.634,"end":470.921,"text":"我不曉得就是我們這個主委這邊有沒有概括性的知道就是說他們好像也不是做這兩塊剛剛我們介紹過的這個核融合的這兩個不同的研究方向可是他們在大篇幅的媒體報導當中說他們已經開始核融合而且還要把它所謂的商業化那這個部分"},{"start":471.801,"end":480.619,"text":"我們有沒有去觀察或者我們有沒有去關切到底這間公司他所說的這個核融核的技巧核融核的這個技術是真的如他所說的是這樣嗎"},{"start":481.944,"end":509.232,"text":"我想這個部分我大概有一些了解那麼我跟其中一位創辦人也有聊過那麼他其實是前國科委主委那麼這個部分其實我們後續還可以再觀察一下那麼我的理解是這個技術門檻很高那麼如果他有一個很突破性那麼在國際上應該是一個很大的新聞才對"},{"start":511.191,"end":533.666,"text":"我想後續還可以再觀察一下因為其實我們也很擔心他的宣傳其實有點擴大了就是說他講說他的Q值可以穩定大於1而且長達數小時但他剛剛不是用剛剛所講的那兩個不同的一個趨勢所以這個部分我想可能還是要懇切的觀察因為我知道這間公司好像還在募資"},{"start":534.787,"end":534.927,"text":"謝謝主席"}]}}}}