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235.134, \"end\": 261.486, \"text\": \"就是說我們在這個OL3我查到的資料是說他原本是說在他說在這15年事實上他供期延宕前前後後花了18年那一個反應爐呢成本也從最初的30億暴增到111億的歐元所以整個成長了80億喔所以這好像似乎跟我們從網路上面新聞得到的數字是有點落差的那再來就是說\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 235.134, \"end\": 235.234, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 235.234, \"end\": 236.255, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 236.255, \"end\": 236.575, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 236.575, \"end\": 236.815, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"O\", \"start\": 236.815, \"end\": 238.356, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"L\", \"start\": 238.356, \"end\": 238.416, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 238.416, \"end\": 238.516, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 238.516, \"end\": 238.656, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 238.656, \"end\": 238.776, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 238.776, \"end\": 239.016, 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\"text\": \"也有去講述這個SMR的小型模組反應爐就美國設計的這個SMR的反應爐呢是宣布在第一座即將在2015年上線但是到現在此時此刻都還沒有上線已經拖延到2030年成本也大幅的增加\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 262.967, \"end\": 263.107, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 263.107, \"end\": 263.227, \"score\": 0.648}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 263.227, \"end\": 263.608, \"score\": 0.767}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"述\", \"start\": 263.608, \"end\": 264.048, \"score\": 0.677}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"S\", \"start\": 264.048, \"end\": 264.169, \"score\": 0.669}, {\"word\": \"M\", \"start\": 264.169, \"end\": 264.309, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"R\", \"start\": 264.309, \"end\": 264.409, \"score\": 0.6}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 264.409, \"end\": 264.569, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"小\", \"start\": 264.569, \"end\": 264.829, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"型\", \"start\": 264.829, \"end\": 265.03, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"模\", \"start\": 265.03, \"end\": 265.53, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"組\"}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 265.53, \"end\": 266.892, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"爐\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 266.892, \"end\": 267.032, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 267.032, \"end\": 267.573, \"score\": 0.72}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 267.573, \"end\": 267.933, \"score\": 0.741}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"S\", \"start\": 267.933, \"end\": 268.093, \"score\": 0.651}, {\"word\": \"M\", \"start\": 268.093, \"end\": 268.213, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"R\", \"start\": 268.213, \"end\": 268.253, \"score\": 0.452}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 268.253, \"end\": 268.394, \"score\": 0.512}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 268.394, \"end\": 268.914, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"爐\"}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 268.914, \"end\": 269.735, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 269.735, \"end\": 269.895, \"score\": 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276.824, \"score\": 0.701}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 276.824, \"end\": 277.384, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 277.384, \"end\": 277.965, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 277.965, \"end\": 278.285, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 278.285, \"end\": 278.425, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 278.425, \"end\": 278.626, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 278.626, \"end\": 278.866, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"幅\", \"start\": 278.866, \"end\": 279.006, \"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 279.006, \"end\": 279.166, \"score\": 0.739}, {\"word\": \"增\", \"start\": 279.166, \"end\": 279.387, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 279.387, \"end\": 279.407, \"score\": 0.805}]}, {\"start\": 280.267, \"end\": 297.753, \"text\": \"這是根據而且在根據美國國家科學院刊發表期刊是說每成家他在SMR所每成產生的一定位的電一單位的電力就會產生更多的核廢料比原本的傳統反應爐高出30倍這部分我想跟主委確認我得到的資訊是正確的嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 280.267, \"end\": 280.527, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"根\", \"start\": 280.527, \"end\": 280.967, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 280.967, \"end\": 281.067, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"且\", \"start\": 281.067, \"end\": 281.227, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 281.227, \"end\": 281.367, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"根\", \"start\": 281.367, \"end\": 281.748, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 281.748, \"end\": 282.448, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 282.448, \"end\": 282.708, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"科\", \"start\": 282.708, \"end\": 282.928, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 282.928, \"end\": 283.108, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 283.108, 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\"start\": 483.184, \"end\": 483.444, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 483.444, \"end\": 483.464, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"en\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,129 --> 00:00:12,712\n接 下 來 我 們 請 張 雅 琳 委 員 謝 謝 主 席 有 請 次 長 跟 主 委 好 我 們 請 次 長 跟 主 委 謝 謝\n\n2\n00:00:17,222 --> 00:00:45,674\n首 先 我 先 請 教 次 長 就 是 說 其 實 因 為 其 實 大 家 今 天 都 一 直 不 停 的 在 問 就 是 A I 因 為 這 也 是 賴 總 統 的 一 個 政 見 就 是 說 我 們 要 發 展 A I 可 是 因 為 從 很 多 的 報 告 也 都 在 講 說 A I 的 用 量 是 非 常 非 常 的 高 那 今 天 有 非 常 多 的 委 員 也 都 非 常 關 心 說 我 們 真 的 有 去 準 備 好 嗎 因 為 企 業 要 發 展 經 濟 要 發 展 電 就 要 準 備 好 那 我 次 長 剛 剛 其 實 也 說 了 我 們 都 有 在 準 備 那 我 可 不 可 以 請 次 長 再 做 一 些 詳 細 的 說 明 我 們 怎 麼 做 這 些 準 備 跟 一 些 預 估 謝 謝\n\n3\n00:00:47,035 --> 00:01:05,331\n我 剛 剛 提 到 我 們 每 年 都 會 做 未 來 用 電 的 需 求 預 估 我 們 現 在 已 經 做 到 2 0 3 0 年 每 一 年 的 用 電 需 求 我 們 除 了 用 G D P 的 成 長 來 做 預 估 之 外 我 們 最 近 也 把 半 保 體 的 一 個 發 展 跟 A I 的 發 展 把 它 加 進 去 也 就 是 說 我 們 除 了 G D P 的 成 長 之 外\n\n4\n00:01:05,731 --> 00:01:32,732\n也 把 半 導 體 這 個 用 電 可 能 會 比 較 這 個 發 展 的 快 然 後 A I 的 部 分 都 把 它 加 進 去 在 我 們 估 計 每 年 用 電 需 求 的 一 個 這 個 這 個 估 計 的 一 個 這 個 參 數 裡 面 對 這 部 分 我 剛 剛 前 面 都 已 經 有 聽 到 那 講 說 這 個 電 源 的 規 劃 是 什 麼 因 為 大 家 都 很 擔 心 嘛 我 們 你 算 人 頭 好 像 都 有 算 那 這 個 電 源 是 怎 麼 樣 做 分 配 的 是 不 是 有 需 要 用 到 核 能 這 件 事 情 是 不 是 可 以 請 如 果 我 們 現 在 做 的 這 些 規 劃 可 不 可 以 再 做 一 些 說 明\n\n5\n00:01:33,672 --> 00:01:55,245\n我 們 這 個 需 求 推 估 出 來 之 後 我 們 就 去 規 劃 我 們 的 一 個 供 電 的 狀 況 那 每 年 的 供 電 我 們 發 現 說 需 要 去 建 新 的 電 力 的 時 候 目 前 為 止 我 們 都 是 擴 大 綠 能 的 一 個 投 入 以 及 這 個 燃 氣 電 廠 的 一 個 投 入 那 另 外 一 部 分 就 是 把 燃 煤 的 部 分 能 夠 逐 漸 的 降 下 來 我 想 目 前 的 一 個 電 力 的 一 個 發 展 的 一 個 配 比 是 這 樣 子\n\n6\n00:01:55,965 --> 00:02:13,173\n但 是 為 了 淨 零 的 一 個 發 展 事 實 上 我 們 在 這 個 這 個 氫 能 的 發 展 也 目 前 投 入 了 一 些 示 範 的 一 個 運 行 的 一 個 這 樣 的 一 個 實 驗 在 進 行 中 那 另 外 一 個 部 分 就 是 說 未 來 我 們 的 火 力 電 廠 要 碳 中 和 需 要 用 到 C C U S 的 這 個 部 分 我 們 就 在 相 關 的 一 個 這 個 以 國 營 事 業 的 這 個\n\n7\n00:02:19,236 --> 00:02:44,485\n市 長 我 想 直 接 這 樣 問 好 了 就 是 說 其 實 我 們 其 實 我 也 從 網 路 上 面 是 有 看 到 台 電 是 有 做 一 些 相 關 的 規 劃 然 後 看 起 來 在 高 峰 期 好 像 也 都 能 夠 持 續 的 供 電 那 我 們 也 有 一 個 長 期 電 源 開 發 的 規 劃 那 我 就 想 問 一 下 就 是 說 我 當 然 我 也 昨 天 也 看 到 你 們 發 了 一 個 最 新 的 新 聞 就 是 說 新 增 的 燃 氣 的 氣 阻 扣 阻 除 液 的 機 阻 後 進 增 加 到 2 0 3 0 年 會 增 加 9 1 0\n\n8\n00:02:46,237 --> 00:02:46,257\n是 ﹗\n\n9\n00:03:02,712 --> 00:03:16,068\n委 員 這 個 是 我 們 這 邊 正 在 做 好 所 以 我 想 再 確 認 一 下 因 為 大 家 都 非 常 關 心 這 個 缺 電 會 影 響 經 濟 發 展 所 以 我 們 現 在 在 2 0 3 0 年 目 前 我 們 都 已 經 把 A I 跟 半 導 體 的 部 分 都 已 經 放 進 去 了\n\n10\n00:03:17,349 --> 00:03:17,789\n主 委 , 您 認 同 這 樣 的 主 張 嗎 ?\n\n11\n00:03:39,807 --> 00:03:51,644\n我 站 在 核 安 會 的 立 場 我 不 能 夠 對 這 個 能 源 政 策 來 做 表 態 我 想 這 個 是 不 是 留 給 經 濟 部 來 回 答 那 報 審 那 我 就 直 接 問 到 細 節 好 了\n\n12\n00:03:55,134 --> 00:04:21,486\n就 是 說 我 們 在 這 個 O L 3 我 查 到 的 資 料 是 說 他 原 本 是 說 在 他 說 在 這 1 5 年 事 實 上 他 供 期 延 宕 前 前 後 後 花 了 1 8 年 那 一 個 反 應 爐 呢 成 本 也 從 最 初 的 3 0 億 暴 增 到 1 1 1 億 的 歐 元 所 以 整 個 成 長 了 8 0 億 喔 所 以 這 好 像 似 乎 跟 我 們 從 網 路 上 面 新 聞 得 到 的 數 字 是 有 點 落 差 的 那 再 來 就 是 說\n\n13\n00:04:22,967 --> 00:04:39,407\n也 有 去 講 述 這 個 S M R 的 小 型 模 組 反 應 爐 就 美 國 設 計 的 這 個 S M R 的 反 應 爐 呢 是 宣 布 在 第 一 座 即 將 在 2 0 1 5 年 上 線 但 是 到 現 在 此 時 此 刻 都 還 沒 有 上 線 已 經 拖 延 到 2 0 3 0 年 成 本 也 大 幅 的 增 加\n\n14\n00:04:40,267 --> 00:04:57,753\n這 是 根 據 而 且 在 根 據 美 國 國 家 科 學 院 刊 發 表 期 刊 是 說 每 成 家 他 在 S M R 所 每 成 產 生 的 一 定 位 的 電 一 單 位 的 電 力 就 會 產 生 更 多 的 核 廢 料 比 原 本 的 傳 統 反 應 爐 高 出 3 0 倍 這 部 分 我 想 跟 主 委 確 認 我 得 到 的 資 訊 是 正 確 的 嗎\n\n15\n00:05:00,042 --> 00:05:26,893\n應 該 是 正 確 好 那 接 下 來 就 繼 續 請 教 就 是 說 既 然 看 起 來 現 在 所 謂 的 新 技 術 好 像 是 沒 有 辦 法 解 決 我 們 所 謂 的 核 廢 料 的 這 個 問 題 那 我 們 就 回 來 看 我 們 現 在 的 核 廢 料 的 處 理 因 為 畢 竟 是 一 個 最 重 要 的 事 情 就 是 說 我 們 現 在 的 核 燃 料 其 實 已 經 是 爆 滿 了 因 為 早 期 我 們 在 做 這 些 評 估 的 時 候 過 於 樂 觀 所 以 並 沒 有\n\n16\n00:05:27,893 --> 00:05:37,938\n竹 枸 容 納 4 0 年 的 核 廢 料 的 存 在 空 間 加 上 過 去 也 沒 有 環 評 所 以 從 這 張 圖 就 可 以 非 常 清 楚 的 知 道 說\n\n17\n00:05:39,309 --> 00:06:01,323\n我 們 現 在 不 管 是 在 燃 料 池 的 已 經 差 不 多 了 還 甚 至 有 一 些 像 是 核 一 廠 還 有 7 2 4 宿 核 二 廠 還 有 1 2 4 8 宿 都 是 沒 有 辦 法 拿 出 來 的 那 我 也 有 看 到 新 聞 是 說 我 們 即 將 在 核 一 的 部 分 已 經 好 像 今 年 年 底 就 可 以 啟 動 了 對 嗎 但 是 我 想 問 現 在 只 是 核 一 喔 還 有 核 二 那 核 二 的 進 度 在 哪 裡\n\n18\n00:06:12,506 --> 00:06:15,406\n抱 歉 那 個 時 間 可 以 還 給 我 齁 因 為 我 聽 不 到 他 在 說 什 麼\n\n19\n00:06:19,075 --> 00:06:24,741\n對 , 所 以 我 們 現 在 核 二 的 進 度 呢 ? 現 在 是 還 沒 有 辦 法 找 到 最 終 處 置 的 地 方 嗎 ? 還 是 還 在 申 請 中 ? 還 是 怎 麼 樣 ? 可 以 說 明 嗎 ? 核 二 的 部 分 大 概 所 謂 的 室 外 乾 除 部 分 目 前 我 們 正 在 等 法 院 的 一 個 調 解\n\n20\n00:06:44,199 --> 00:06:59,469\n對 , 跟 新 北 市 的 調 解 對 不 對 ? 對 對 對 的 調 解 那 如 果 跟 新 北 市 調 解 完 以 後 大 概 後 面 我 們 大 概 可 能 需 要 花 到 兩 年 到 三 年 的 時 間 二 到 三 年 的 時 間 所 以 這 個 部 分 的 話 我 們 還 需 要 二 到 三 年 來 處 理 嘛 對 不 對 ? 好\n\n21\n00:07:00,349 --> 00:07:23,083\n我 想 就 是 說 不 管 是 中 研 院 的 研 究 也 有 講 到 或 是 世 界 在 講 這 件 事 情 都 有 講 核 能 發 電 最 大 的 主 力 其 實 是 在 放 射 性 廢 棄 物 的 最 終 處 置 廠 不 管 是 從 技 術 的 角 度 或 者 是 說 安 全 性 這 件 事 情 它 其 實 都 是 一 個 我 們 要 不 要 決 定 用 核 電 最 艱 難 的 決 定\n\n22\n00:07:25,074 --> 00:07:40,652\n所 以 我 想 就 是 說 因 為 畢 竟 我 們 從 這 上 面 的 所 有 的 資 料 可 以 看 到 核 一 廠 核 二 廠 都 已 經 借 期 核 三 廠 也 都 已 經 超 過 申 請 延 役 的 期 限 現 在 也 沒 有 辦 法 解 決 最 終 的 這 個 處 置 廠 的 這 個 問 題\n\n23\n00:07:43,014 --> 00:07:58,082\n中 研 院 的 建 議 書 也 提 供 其 他 能 源 ． 就 像 剛 才 提 到 的 再 生 能 源 ． 減 碳 選 擇 ． 除 能 設 備 這 都 是 可 以 解 決 企 業 需 要 用 電 的 問 題 所 以 我 希 望 主 委 這 邊 一 定 要 來 努 力 以 專 業 的 角 度\n\n24\n00:08:01,424 --> 00:08:03,464\n這 是 關 於 所 有 人 民 的 安 全 謝 謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n129\t12712\t接下來我們請張雅琳委員謝謝主席 有請次長跟主委好 我們請次長跟主委 謝謝\n17222\t45674\t首先我先請教次長就是說其實因為其實大家今天都一直不停的在問就是AI因為這也是賴總統的一個政見就是說我們要發展AI可是因為從很多的報告也都在講說AI的用量是非常非常的高那今天有非常多的委員也都非常關心說我們真的有去準備好嗎因為企業要發展經濟要發展電就要準備好那我次長剛剛其實也說了我們都有在準備那我可不可以請次長再做一些詳細的說明我們怎麼做這些準備跟一些預估謝謝\n47035\t65331\t我剛剛提到我們每年都會做未來用電的需求預估我們現在已經做到2030年每一年的用電需求我們除了用GDP的成長來做預估之外我們最近也把半保體的一個發展跟AI的發展把它加進去也就是說我們除了GDP的成長之外\n65731\t92732\t也把半導體這個用電可能會比較這個發展的快然後AI的部分都把它加進去在我們估計每年用電需求的一個這個這個估計的一個這個參數裡面對這部分我剛剛前面都已經有聽到那講說這個電源的規劃是什麼因為大家都很擔心嘛我們你算人頭好像都有算那這個電源是怎麼樣做分配的是不是有需要用到核能這件事情是不是可以請如果我們現在做的這些規劃可不可以再做一些說明\n93672\t115245\t我們這個需求推估出來之後我們就去規劃我們的一個供電的狀況那每年的供電我們發現說需要去建新的電力的時候目前為止我們都是擴大綠能的一個投入以及這個燃氣電廠的一個投入那另外一部分就是把燃煤的部分能夠逐漸的降下來我想目前的一個電力的一個發展的一個配比是這樣子\n115965\t133173\t但是為了淨零的一個發展事實上我們在這個這個氫能的發展也目前投入了一些示範的一個運行的一個這樣的一個實驗在進行中那另外一個部分就是說未來我們的火力電廠要碳中和需要用到CCUS的這個部分我們就在相關的一個這個以國營事業的這個\n139236\t164485\t市長我想直接這樣問好了就是說其實我們其實我也從網路上面是有看到台電是有做一些相關的規劃然後看起來在高峰期好像也都能夠持續的供電那我們也有一個長期電源開發的規劃那我就想問一下就是說我當然我也昨天也看到你們發了一個最新的新聞就是說新增的燃氣的氣阻扣阻除液的機阻後進增加到2030年會增加910\n166237\t166257\t是﹗\n182712\t196068\t委員這個是我們這邊正在做好所以我想再確認一下因為大家都非常關心這個缺電會影響經濟發展所以我們現在在2030年目前我們都已經把AI跟半導體的部分都已經放進去了\n197349\t197789\t主委,您認同這樣的主張嗎?\n219807\t231644\t我站在核安會的立場我不能夠對這個能源政策來做表態我想這個是不是留給經濟部來回答那報審那我就直接問到細節好了\n235134\t261486\t就是說我們在這個OL3我查到的資料是說他原本是說在他說在這15年事實上他供期延宕前前後後花了18年那一個反應爐呢成本也從最初的30億暴增到111億的歐元所以整個成長了80億喔所以這好像似乎跟我們從網路上面新聞得到的數字是有點落差的那再來就是說\n262967\t279407\t也有去講述這個SMR的小型模組反應爐就美國設計的這個SMR的反應爐呢是宣布在第一座即將在2015年上線但是到現在此時此刻都還沒有上線已經拖延到2030年成本也大幅的增加\n280267\t297753\t這是根據而且在根據美國國家科學院刊發表期刊是說每成家他在SMR所每成產生的一定位的電一單位的電力就會產生更多的核廢料比原本的傳統反應爐高出30倍這部分我想跟主委確認我得到的資訊是正確的嗎\n300042\t326893\t應該是正確好 那接下來就繼續請教就是說既然看起來現在所謂的新技術好像是沒有辦法解決我們所謂的核廢料的這個問題那我們就回來看我們現在的核廢料的處理因為畢竟是一個最重要的事情就是說我們現在的核燃料其實已經是爆滿了因為早期我們在做這些評估的時候過於樂觀所以並沒有\n327893\t337938\t竹枸容納40年的核廢料的存在空間加上過去也沒有環評所以從這張圖就可以非常清楚的知道說\n339309\t361323\t我們現在不管是在燃料池的已經差不多了還甚至有一些像是核一廠還有724宿核二廠還有1248宿都是沒有辦法拿出來的那我也有看到新聞是說我們即將在核一的部分已經好像今年年底就可以啟動了對嗎但是我想問現在只是核一喔還有核二那核二的進度在哪裡\n372506\t375406\t抱歉那個時間可以還給我齁因為我聽不到他在說什麼\n379075\t384741\t對,所以我們現在核二的進度呢?現在是還沒有辦法找到最終處置的地方嗎?還是還在申請中?還是怎麼樣?可以說明嗎?核二的部分大概所謂的室外乾除部分目前我們正在等法院的一個調解\n404199\t419469\t對,跟新北市的調解對不對?對對對的調解那如果跟新北市調解完以後大概後面我們大概可能需要花到兩年到三年的時間二到三年的時間所以這個部分的話我們還需要二到三年來處理嘛對不對?好\n420349\t443083\t我想就是說不管是中研院的研究也有講到或是世界在講這件事情都有講核能發電最大的主力其實是在放射性廢棄物的最終處置廠不管是從技術的角度或者是說安全性這件事情它其實都是一個我們要不要決定用核電最艱難的決定\n445074\t460652\t所以我想就是說因為畢竟我們從這上面的所有的資料可以看到核一廠核二廠都已經借期核三廠也都已經超過申請延役的期限現在也沒有辦法解決最終的這個處置廠的這個問題\n463014\t478082\t中研院的建議書也提供其他能源．就像剛才提到的再生能源．減碳選擇．除能設備這都是可以解決企業需要用電的問題所以我希望主委這邊一定要來努力以專業的角度\n481424\t483464\t這是關於所有人民的安全 謝謝\n","txt":"接下來我們請張雅琳委員謝謝主席 有請次長跟主委好 我們請次長跟主委 謝謝\n首先我先請教次長就是說其實因為其實大家今天都一直不停的在問就是AI因為這也是賴總統的一個政見就是說我們要發展AI可是因為從很多的報告也都在講說AI的用量是非常非常的高那今天有非常多的委員也都非常關心說我們真的有去準備好嗎因為企業要發展經濟要發展電就要準備好那我次長剛剛其實也說了我們都有在準備那我可不可以請次長再做一些詳細的說明我們怎麼做這些準備跟一些預估謝謝\n我剛剛提到我們每年都會做未來用電的需求預估我們現在已經做到2030年每一年的用電需求我們除了用GDP的成長來做預估之外我們最近也把半保體的一個發展跟AI的發展把它加進去也就是說我們除了GDP的成長之外\n也把半導體這個用電可能會比較這個發展的快然後AI的部分都把它加進去在我們估計每年用電需求的一個這個這個估計的一個這個參數裡面對這部分我剛剛前面都已經有聽到那講說這個電源的規劃是什麼因為大家都很擔心嘛我們你算人頭好像都有算那這個電源是怎麼樣做分配的是不是有需要用到核能這件事情是不是可以請如果我們現在做的這些規劃可不可以再做一些說明\n我們這個需求推估出來之後我們就去規劃我們的一個供電的狀況那每年的供電我們發現說需要去建新的電力的時候目前為止我們都是擴大綠能的一個投入以及這個燃氣電廠的一個投入那另外一部分就是把燃煤的部分能夠逐漸的降下來我想目前的一個電力的一個發展的一個配比是這樣子\n但是為了淨零的一個發展事實上我們在這個這個氫能的發展也目前投入了一些示範的一個運行的一個這樣的一個實驗在進行中那另外一個部分就是說未來我們的火力電廠要碳中和需要用到CCUS的這個部分我們就在相關的一個這個以國營事業的這個\n市長我想直接這樣問好了就是說其實我們其實我也從網路上面是有看到台電是有做一些相關的規劃然後看起來在高峰期好像也都能夠持續的供電那我們也有一個長期電源開發的規劃那我就想問一下就是說我當然我也昨天也看到你們發了一個最新的新聞就是說新增的燃氣的氣阻扣阻除液的機阻後進增加到2030年會增加910\n是﹗\n委員這個是我們這邊正在做好所以我想再確認一下因為大家都非常關心這個缺電會影響經濟發展所以我們現在在2030年目前我們都已經把AI跟半導體的部分都已經放進去了\n主委,您認同這樣的主張嗎?\n我站在核安會的立場我不能夠對這個能源政策來做表態我想這個是不是留給經濟部來回答那報審那我就直接問到細節好了\n就是說我們在這個OL3我查到的資料是說他原本是說在他說在這15年事實上他供期延宕前前後後花了18年那一個反應爐呢成本也從最初的30億暴增到111億的歐元所以整個成長了80億喔所以這好像似乎跟我們從網路上面新聞得到的數字是有點落差的那再來就是說\n也有去講述這個SMR的小型模組反應爐就美國設計的這個SMR的反應爐呢是宣布在第一座即將在2015年上線但是到現在此時此刻都還沒有上線已經拖延到2030年成本也大幅的增加\n這是根據而且在根據美國國家科學院刊發表期刊是說每成家他在SMR所每成產生的一定位的電一單位的電力就會產生更多的核廢料比原本的傳統反應爐高出30倍這部分我想跟主委確認我得到的資訊是正確的嗎\n應該是正確好 那接下來就繼續請教就是說既然看起來現在所謂的新技術好像是沒有辦法解決我們所謂的核廢料的這個問題那我們就回來看我們現在的核廢料的處理因為畢竟是一個最重要的事情就是說我們現在的核燃料其實已經是爆滿了因為早期我們在做這些評估的時候過於樂觀所以並沒有\n竹枸容納40年的核廢料的存在空間加上過去也沒有環評所以從這張圖就可以非常清楚的知道說\n我們現在不管是在燃料池的已經差不多了還甚至有一些像是核一廠還有724宿核二廠還有1248宿都是沒有辦法拿出來的那我也有看到新聞是說我們即將在核一的部分已經好像今年年底就可以啟動了對嗎但是我想問現在只是核一喔還有核二那核二的進度在哪裡\n抱歉那個時間可以還給我齁因為我聽不到他在說什麼\n對,所以我們現在核二的進度呢?現在是還沒有辦法找到最終處置的地方嗎?還是還在申請中?還是怎麼樣?可以說明嗎?核二的部分大概所謂的室外乾除部分目前我們正在等法院的一個調解\n對,跟新北市的調解對不對?對對對的調解那如果跟新北市調解完以後大概後面我們大概可能需要花到兩年到三年的時間二到三年的時間所以這個部分的話我們還需要二到三年來處理嘛對不對?好\n我想就是說不管是中研院的研究也有講到或是世界在講這件事情都有講核能發電最大的主力其實是在放射性廢棄物的最終處置廠不管是從技術的角度或者是說安全性這件事情它其實都是一個我們要不要決定用核電最艱難的決定\n所以我想就是說因為畢竟我們從這上面的所有的資料可以看到核一廠核二廠都已經借期核三廠也都已經超過申請延役的期限現在也沒有辦法解決最終的這個處置廠的這個問題\n中研院的建議書也提供其他能源．就像剛才提到的再生能源．減碳選擇．除能設備這都是可以解決企業需要用電的問題所以我希望主委這邊一定要來努力以專業的角度\n這是關於所有人民的安全 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.129 --> 00:12.712\n接 下 來 我 們 請 張 雅 琳 委 員 謝 謝 主 席 有 請 次 長 跟 主 委 好 我 們 請 次 長 跟 主 委 謝 謝\n\n00:17.222 --> 00:45.674\n首 先 我 先 請 教 次 長 就 是 說 其 實 因 為 其 實 大 家 今 天 都 一 直 不 停 的 在 問 就 是 A I 因 為 這 也 是 賴 總 統 的 一 個 政 見 就 是 說 我 們 要 發 展 A I 可 是 因 為 從 很 多 的 報 告 也 都 在 講 說 A I 的 用 量 是 非 常 非 常 的 高 那 今 天 有 非 常 多 的 委 員 也 都 非 常 關 心 說 我 們 真 的 有 去 準 備 好 嗎 因 為 企 業 要 發 展 經 濟 要 發 展 電 就 要 準 備 好 那 我 次 長 剛 剛 其 實 也 說 了 我 們 都 有 在 準 備 那 我 可 不 可 以 請 次 長 再 做 一 些 詳 細 的 說 明 我 們 怎 麼 做 這 些 準 備 跟 一 些 預 估 謝 謝\n\n00:47.035 --> 01:05.331\n我 剛 剛 提 到 我 們 每 年 都 會 做 未 來 用 電 的 需 求 預 估 我 們 現 在 已 經 做 到 2 0 3 0 年 每 一 年 的 用 電 需 求 我 們 除 了 用 G D P 的 成 長 來 做 預 估 之 外 我 們 最 近 也 把 半 保 體 的 一 個 發 展 跟 A I 的 發 展 把 它 加 進 去 也 就 是 說 我 們 除 了 G D P 的 成 長 之 外\n\n01:05.731 --> 01:32.732\n也 把 半 導 體 這 個 用 電 可 能 會 比 較 這 個 發 展 的 快 然 後 A I 的 部 分 都 把 它 加 進 去 在 我 們 估 計 每 年 用 電 需 求 的 一 個 這 個 這 個 估 計 的 一 個 這 個 參 數 裡 面 對 這 部 分 我 剛 剛 前 面 都 已 經 有 聽 到 那 講 說 這 個 電 源 的 規 劃 是 什 麼 因 為 大 家 都 很 擔 心 嘛 我 們 你 算 人 頭 好 像 都 有 算 那 這 個 電 源 是 怎 麼 樣 做 分 配 的 是 不 是 有 需 要 用 到 核 能 這 件 事 情 是 不 是 可 以 請 如 果 我 們 現 在 做 的 這 些 規 劃 可 不 可 以 再 做 一 些 說 明\n\n01:33.672 --> 01:55.245\n我 們 這 個 需 求 推 估 出 來 之 後 我 們 就 去 規 劃 我 們 的 一 個 供 電 的 狀 況 那 每 年 的 供 電 我 們 發 現 說 需 要 去 建 新 的 電 力 的 時 候 目 前 為 止 我 們 都 是 擴 大 綠 能 的 一 個 投 入 以 及 這 個 燃 氣 電 廠 的 一 個 投 入 那 另 外 一 部 分 就 是 把 燃 煤 的 部 分 能 夠 逐 漸 的 降 下 來 我 想 目 前 的 一 個 電 力 的 一 個 發 展 的 一 個 配 比 是 這 樣 子\n\n01:55.965 --> 02:13.173\n但 是 為 了 淨 零 的 一 個 發 展 事 實 上 我 們 在 這 個 這 個 氫 能 的 發 展 也 目 前 投 入 了 一 些 示 範 的 一 個 運 行 的 一 個 這 樣 的 一 個 實 驗 在 進 行 中 那 另 外 一 個 部 分 就 是 說 未 來 我 們 的 火 力 電 廠 要 碳 中 和 需 要 用 到 C C U S 的 這 個 部 分 我 們 就 在 相 關 的 一 個 這 個 以 國 營 事 業 的 這 個\n\n02:19.236 --> 02:44.485\n市 長 我 想 直 接 這 樣 問 好 了 就 是 說 其 實 我 們 其 實 我 也 從 網 路 上 面 是 有 看 到 台 電 是 有 做 一 些 相 關 的 規 劃 然 後 看 起 來 在 高 峰 期 好 像 也 都 能 夠 持 續 的 供 電 那 我 們 也 有 一 個 長 期 電 源 開 發 的 規 劃 那 我 就 想 問 一 下 就 是 說 我 當 然 我 也 昨 天 也 看 到 你 們 發 了 一 個 最 新 的 新 聞 就 是 說 新 增 的 燃 氣 的 氣 阻 扣 阻 除 液 的 機 阻 後 進 增 加 到 2 0 3 0 年 會 增 加 9 1 0\n\n02:46.237 --> 02:46.257\n是 ﹗\n\n03:02.712 --> 03:16.068\n委 員 這 個 是 我 們 這 邊 正 在 做 好 所 以 我 想 再 確 認 一 下 因 為 大 家 都 非 常 關 心 這 個 缺 電 會 影 響 經 濟 發 展 所 以 我 們 現 在 在 2 0 3 0 年 目 前 我 們 都 已 經 把 A I 跟 半 導 體 的 部 分 都 已 經 放 進 去 了\n\n03:17.349 --> 03:17.789\n主 委 , 您 認 同 這 樣 的 主 張 嗎 ?\n\n03:39.807 --> 03:51.644\n我 站 在 核 安 會 的 立 場 我 不 能 夠 對 這 個 能 源 政 策 來 做 表 態 我 想 這 個 是 不 是 留 給 經 濟 部 來 回 答 那 報 審 那 我 就 直 接 問 到 細 節 好 了\n\n03:55.134 --> 04:21.486\n就 是 說 我 們 在 這 個 O L 3 我 查 到 的 資 料 是 說 他 原 本 是 說 在 他 說 在 這 1 5 年 事 實 上 他 供 期 延 宕 前 前 後 後 花 了 1 8 年 那 一 個 反 應 爐 呢 成 本 也 從 最 初 的 3 0 億 暴 增 到 1 1 1 億 的 歐 元 所 以 整 個 成 長 了 8 0 億 喔 所 以 這 好 像 似 乎 跟 我 們 從 網 路 上 面 新 聞 得 到 的 數 字 是 有 點 落 差 的 那 再 來 就 是 說\n\n04:22.967 --> 04:39.407\n也 有 去 講 述 這 個 S M R 的 小 型 模 組 反 應 爐 就 美 國 設 計 的 這 個 S M R 的 反 應 爐 呢 是 宣 布 在 第 一 座 即 將 在 2 0 1 5 年 上 線 但 是 到 現 在 此 時 此 刻 都 還 沒 有 上 線 已 經 拖 延 到 2 0 3 0 年 成 本 也 大 幅 的 增 加\n\n04:40.267 --> 04:57.753\n這 是 根 據 而 且 在 根 據 美 國 國 家 科 學 院 刊 發 表 期 刊 是 說 每 成 家 他 在 S M R 所 每 成 產 生 的 一 定 位 的 電 一 單 位 的 電 力 就 會 產 生 更 多 的 核 廢 料 比 原 本 的 傳 統 反 應 爐 高 出 3 0 倍 這 部 分 我 想 跟 主 委 確 認 我 得 到 的 資 訊 是 正 確 的 嗎\n\n05:00.042 --> 05:26.893\n應 該 是 正 確 好 那 接 下 來 就 繼 續 請 教 就 是 說 既 然 看 起 來 現 在 所 謂 的 新 技 術 好 像 是 沒 有 辦 法 解 決 我 們 所 謂 的 核 廢 料 的 這 個 問 題 那 我 們 就 回 來 看 我 們 現 在 的 核 廢 料 的 處 理 因 為 畢 竟 是 一 個 最 重 要 的 事 情 就 是 說 我 們 現 在 的 核 燃 料 其 實 已 經 是 爆 滿 了 因 為 早 期 我 們 在 做 這 些 評 估 的 時 候 過 於 樂 觀 所 以 並 沒 有\n\n05:27.893 --> 05:37.938\n竹 枸 容 納 4 0 年 的 核 廢 料 的 存 在 空 間 加 上 過 去 也 沒 有 環 評 所 以 從 這 張 圖 就 可 以 非 常 清 楚 的 知 道 說\n\n05:39.309 --> 06:01.323\n我 們 現 在 不 管 是 在 燃 料 池 的 已 經 差 不 多 了 還 甚 至 有 一 些 像 是 核 一 廠 還 有 7 2 4 宿 核 二 廠 還 有 1 2 4 8 宿 都 是 沒 有 辦 法 拿 出 來 的 那 我 也 有 看 到 新 聞 是 說 我 們 即 將 在 核 一 的 部 分 已 經 好 像 今 年 年 底 就 可 以 啟 動 了 對 嗎 但 是 我 想 問 現 在 只 是 核 一 喔 還 有 核 二 那 核 二 的 進 度 在 哪 裡\n\n06:12.506 --> 06:15.406\n抱 歉 那 個 時 間 可 以 還 給 我 齁 因 為 我 聽 不 到 他 在 說 什 麼\n\n06:19.075 --> 06:24.741\n對 , 所 以 我 們 現 在 核 二 的 進 度 呢 ? 現 在 是 還 沒 有 辦 法 找 到 最 終 處 置 的 地 方 嗎 ? 還 是 還 在 申 請 中 ? 還 是 怎 麼 樣 ? 可 以 說 明 嗎 ? 核 二 的 部 分 大 概 所 謂 的 室 外 乾 除 部 分 目 前 我 們 正 在 等 法 院 的 一 個 調 解\n\n06:44.199 --> 06:59.469\n對 , 跟 新 北 市 的 調 解 對 不 對 ? 對 對 對 的 調 解 那 如 果 跟 新 北 市 調 解 完 以 後 大 概 後 面 我 們 大 概 可 能 需 要 花 到 兩 年 到 三 年 的 時 間 二 到 三 年 的 時 間 所 以 這 個 部 分 的 話 我 們 還 需 要 二 到 三 年 來 處 理 嘛 對 不 對 ? 好\n\n07:00.349 --> 07:23.083\n我 想 就 是 說 不 管 是 中 研 院 的 研 究 也 有 講 到 或 是 世 界 在 講 這 件 事 情 都 有 講 核 能 發 電 最 大 的 主 力 其 實 是 在 放 射 性 廢 棄 物 的 最 終 處 置 廠 不 管 是 從 技 術 的 角 度 或 者 是 說 安 全 性 這 件 事 情 它 其 實 都 是 一 個 我 們 要 不 要 決 定 用 核 電 最 艱 難 的 決 定\n\n07:25.074 --> 07:40.652\n所 以 我 想 就 是 說 因 為 畢 竟 我 們 從 這 上 面 的 所 有 的 資 料 可 以 看 到 核 一 廠 核 二 廠 都 已 經 借 期 核 三 廠 也 都 已 經 超 過 申 請 延 役 的 期 限 現 在 也 沒 有 辦 法 解 決 最 終 的 這 個 處 置 廠 的 這 個 問 題\n\n07:43.014 --> 07:58.082\n中 研 院 的 建 議 書 也 提 供 其 他 能 源 ． 就 像 剛 才 提 到 的 再 生 能 源 ． 減 碳 選 擇 ． 除 能 設 備 這 都 是 可 以 解 決 企 業 需 要 用 電 的 問 題 所 以 我 希 望 主 委 這 邊 一 定 要 來 努 力 以 專 業 的 角 度\n\n08:01.424 --> 08:03.464\n這 是 關 於 所 有 人 民 的 安 全 謝 謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.129,"end":12.712,"text":"接下來我們請張雅琳委員謝謝主席 有請次長跟主委好 我們請次長跟主委 謝謝"},{"start":17.222,"end":45.674,"text":"首先我先請教次長就是說其實因為其實大家今天都一直不停的在問就是AI因為這也是賴總統的一個政見就是說我們要發展AI可是因為從很多的報告也都在講說AI的用量是非常非常的高那今天有非常多的委員也都非常關心說我們真的有去準備好嗎因為企業要發展經濟要發展電就要準備好那我次長剛剛其實也說了我們都有在準備那我可不可以請次長再做一些詳細的說明我們怎麼做這些準備跟一些預估謝謝"},{"start":47.035,"end":65.331,"text":"我剛剛提到我們每年都會做未來用電的需求預估我們現在已經做到2030年每一年的用電需求我們除了用GDP的成長來做預估之外我們最近也把半保體的一個發展跟AI的發展把它加進去也就是說我們除了GDP的成長之外"},{"start":65.731,"end":92.732,"text":"也把半導體這個用電可能會比較這個發展的快然後AI的部分都把它加進去在我們估計每年用電需求的一個這個這個估計的一個這個參數裡面對這部分我剛剛前面都已經有聽到那講說這個電源的規劃是什麼因為大家都很擔心嘛我們你算人頭好像都有算那這個電源是怎麼樣做分配的是不是有需要用到核能這件事情是不是可以請如果我們現在做的這些規劃可不可以再做一些說明"},{"start":93.672,"end":115.245,"text":"我們這個需求推估出來之後我們就去規劃我們的一個供電的狀況那每年的供電我們發現說需要去建新的電力的時候目前為止我們都是擴大綠能的一個投入以及這個燃氣電廠的一個投入那另外一部分就是把燃煤的部分能夠逐漸的降下來我想目前的一個電力的一個發展的一個配比是這樣子"},{"start":115.965,"end":133.173,"text":"但是為了淨零的一個發展事實上我們在這個這個氫能的發展也目前投入了一些示範的一個運行的一個這樣的一個實驗在進行中那另外一個部分就是說未來我們的火力電廠要碳中和需要用到CCUS的這個部分我們就在相關的一個這個以國營事業的這個"},{"start":139.236,"end":164.485,"text":"市長我想直接這樣問好了就是說其實我們其實我也從網路上面是有看到台電是有做一些相關的規劃然後看起來在高峰期好像也都能夠持續的供電那我們也有一個長期電源開發的規劃那我就想問一下就是說我當然我也昨天也看到你們發了一個最新的新聞就是說新增的燃氣的氣阻扣阻除液的機阻後進增加到2030年會增加910"},{"start":166.237,"end":166.257,"text":"是﹗"},{"start":182.712,"end":196.068,"text":"委員這個是我們這邊正在做好所以我想再確認一下因為大家都非常關心這個缺電會影響經濟發展所以我們現在在2030年目前我們都已經把AI跟半導體的部分都已經放進去了"},{"start":197.349,"end":197.789,"text":"主委,您認同這樣的主張嗎?"},{"start":219.807,"end":231.644,"text":"我站在核安會的立場我不能夠對這個能源政策來做表態我想這個是不是留給經濟部來回答那報審那我就直接問到細節好了"},{"start":235.134,"end":261.486,"text":"就是說我們在這個OL3我查到的資料是說他原本是說在他說在這15年事實上他供期延宕前前後後花了18年那一個反應爐呢成本也從最初的30億暴增到111億的歐元所以整個成長了80億喔所以這好像似乎跟我們從網路上面新聞得到的數字是有點落差的那再來就是說"},{"start":262.967,"end":279.407,"text":"也有去講述這個SMR的小型模組反應爐就美國設計的這個SMR的反應爐呢是宣布在第一座即將在2015年上線但是到現在此時此刻都還沒有上線已經拖延到2030年成本也大幅的增加"},{"start":280.267,"end":297.753,"text":"這是根據而且在根據美國國家科學院刊發表期刊是說每成家他在SMR所每成產生的一定位的電一單位的電力就會產生更多的核廢料比原本的傳統反應爐高出30倍這部分我想跟主委確認我得到的資訊是正確的嗎"},{"start":300.042,"end":326.893,"text":"應該是正確好 那接下來就繼續請教就是說既然看起來現在所謂的新技術好像是沒有辦法解決我們所謂的核廢料的這個問題那我們就回來看我們現在的核廢料的處理因為畢竟是一個最重要的事情就是說我們現在的核燃料其實已經是爆滿了因為早期我們在做這些評估的時候過於樂觀所以並沒有"},{"start":327.893,"end":337.938,"text":"竹枸容納40年的核廢料的存在空間加上過去也沒有環評所以從這張圖就可以非常清楚的知道說"},{"start":339.309,"end":361.323,"text":"我們現在不管是在燃料池的已經差不多了還甚至有一些像是核一廠還有724宿核二廠還有1248宿都是沒有辦法拿出來的那我也有看到新聞是說我們即將在核一的部分已經好像今年年底就可以啟動了對嗎但是我想問現在只是核一喔還有核二那核二的進度在哪裡"},{"start":372.506,"end":375.406,"text":"抱歉那個時間可以還給我齁因為我聽不到他在說什麼"},{"start":379.075,"end":384.741,"text":"對,所以我們現在核二的進度呢?現在是還沒有辦法找到最終處置的地方嗎?還是還在申請中?還是怎麼樣?可以說明嗎?核二的部分大概所謂的室外乾除部分目前我們正在等法院的一個調解"},{"start":404.199,"end":419.469,"text":"對,跟新北市的調解對不對?對對對的調解那如果跟新北市調解完以後大概後面我們大概可能需要花到兩年到三年的時間二到三年的時間所以這個部分的話我們還需要二到三年來處理嘛對不對?好"},{"start":420.349,"end":443.083,"text":"我想就是說不管是中研院的研究也有講到或是世界在講這件事情都有講核能發電最大的主力其實是在放射性廢棄物的最終處置廠不管是從技術的角度或者是說安全性這件事情它其實都是一個我們要不要決定用核電最艱難的決定"},{"start":445.074,"end":460.652,"text":"所以我想就是說因為畢竟我們從這上面的所有的資料可以看到核一廠核二廠都已經借期核三廠也都已經超過申請延役的期限現在也沒有辦法解決最終的這個處置廠的這個問題"},{"start":463.014,"end":478.082,"text":"中研院的建議書也提供其他能源．就像剛才提到的再生能源．減碳選擇．除能設備這都是可以解決企業需要用電的問題所以我希望主委這邊一定要來努力以專業的角度"},{"start":481.424,"end":483.464,"text":"這是關於所有人民的安全 謝謝"}]}}}}