{"id":153239,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153239","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e13315cc6d6f998b7a4fe74cb636d3605ada8a3ee6acdf2d5e987e0e135e5ff889c205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:59:49 - 11:14:53","影片長度":"00:15:04","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、外交部、大陸委員會報告「第十六屆總統就職後國際暨兩岸情勢發展對我國安之影響」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":904,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-22"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T11:14:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T10:59:49+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":485,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時59分）謝謝主席，麻煩請蔡局長。"],["主席：蔡局長請。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席。馬委員早。"],["馬委員文君：局長好。今天有非常多的委員也非常關切，我們這一次在總統就職以後，中共的軍演到底是什麼樣的目的，包括它的作為，還有它發展的狀況。因為局長在上一次質詢的時候，大概是5月1日吧！你們曾經提到說520之後，從6月到11月是中國例行軍演的季節，進入軍演熱季，國安局關注的重點是中共會不會藉口進行一些軍事演習來對臺灣施壓。媒體報導也提到，新國安團隊曾經在一場內部的簡報當中指出，總統就職前後的中共軍演都是在意料之中，也都是基本動作。就局長的判斷，這一次在520之後的3天就展開了軍演，這是它例行性的基本動作，還是突發性的？國安局掌握的狀況是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：當時在立法院說明的時候，我們就有稍微強調，中共對臺的這種聯合戰備警巡已經常態化，從1月13日到520，它可能會不斷地用常態化的聯合戰備警巡來對我們施壓。我當時也提醒了，因為從6月到10月，甚至11月，是它演習的熱季，所以下個階段……"],["馬委員文君：5月這一個有沒有掌握到？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，5月這個階段，剛剛也提到，從1月13日到520，我們大概都有推演各種可能的狀況。我老實跟委員報告，在中共宣布軍演期間，事實上它的船艦已經開始動員，那一動員……"],["馬委員文君：對，軍演我們知道，因為它6月就有常態性的一些軍事演習，這個已經是例行性，就跟我們漢光演習一樣，可是我要問的是5月23日這一場，我們事實上有沒有掌握到？因為剛剛您說它的兵力沒有比較多……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，跟過去兩場比較。"],["馬委員文君：可是它的範圍比較大，然後這一次是用4個軍種，陸海空軍還有火箭軍，對於我們的壓縮其實是更近了。尤其中共這一次軍演的內容、項目，對於反介入跟區域拒止其實是比較明顯的態勢，我想要請教的是，就520以後，這個3天我們有沒有掌握？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，因為我跟……"],["馬委員文君：它會發生，你們已經知道了嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，要跟委員說明的是，事實上大概在5月18日左右，它的船艦都已經開始在活動了，那這種活動的態勢，我們一判就會發現這是有點異常的，而且慢慢地往臺海地區周邊的水域在移動，這樣我們就發現了徵候了。"],["馬委員文君：那這樣有兩個問題，因為我們在5月18日已經發現它的軍艦在活動，可是現在其實每天都有機艦在活動……"],["蔡局長明彥：我知道你的意思。"],["馬委員文君：這個部分有沒有產生變化，國安局的掌握，就局長您剛剛的說法是已經有掌握到了，那我們在520的時候還派出了37架軍機，而且都是現在重要的主力戰機，不管是F16、IDF、高教機還有幻象等等，其實都參與了這一次的總統就職，所以像這樣子，既然有掌握，是我們有點輕忽嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：不會，因為就國軍來講，當然在展演的飛機跟相關戰備的飛機它是有做任務的分工的，而且每天的在空機都有一定的數量在捍衛我們的領空。"],["馬委員文君：我們當然知道，可是當中共是演習，不是常態性的每天機艦擾臺的部分，我們就已經有掌握了，還做出這樣的一個選擇。另外，我們比較擔心的就是解放軍的動員能力非常強，因為在520之後，平常它在6月以後嘛！為什麼這一次的軍演沒有掛彈？很大的一個可能性是因為它非常機動，還沒有來得及去做公告，因為如果正常要實彈的話，其實必須要公告，包括演習的區域範圍，所以這一次兩天的軍演，它的目的很重要，就國安局掌握，就局長您的看法，為什麼會這樣做？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們的判斷，我跟委員做一個說明，軍事上它當然是在對我們進行恫嚇，但是在政治上，我剛剛也跟王定宇委員說明的是，中共也有做一些必要的風險控管，所以它並沒有宣布禁航區，並沒有發射實彈。假如又宣布禁航區、又發射實彈，演習規模又比照當時裴洛西2022年8月訪臺的話，它所造成國際社會的關注程度會非常非常地高，特別是在我們的就職典禮之後。"],["馬委員文君：因為2022年裴洛西議長訪臺的時候，那個已經是拉很長的時間，而且他們也做了預告，所以有時間可以去公告。我們現在比較擔心的是，短短的兩天之內，它已經迅速地集結，而且很多人根本不知道，沒有掌握到，因為本來給我們的資訊，包括國安局喔！你們當時跟立法院說明的部分，其實也都是到6月以後他們的常態演訓，所以我們必須要關注的是中共在這麼短的時間可以這樣做，它速戰的一個作法，其實它如果隨時有掛彈，隨時有做這樣的準備，馬上就可以行動。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這個我們有注意……"],["馬委員文君：所以我們比較擔心的是這一個部分。"],["蔡局長明彥：有，剛剛也有跟其他委員說明，因為它在5月23日早上7點45分宣布演習之後，確實是快速地動員海上跟空中的兵力來投入這場演習，另外還包括海警部隊，動員的速度加快，這個我們有在注意。"],["馬委員文君：中共為什麼會有這一個演習？局長，你掌握的是什麼樣的狀況？"],["蔡局長明彥：一開始也跟……"],["馬委員文君：為什麼會有這一個？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們剛剛在外面也跟媒體說明……"],["馬委員文君：是因為賴總統的演說嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，演說的部分，我剛剛也跟媒體說明，因為演說主要的內容還是在延續維持臺海現狀相關政策的路線跟基調，那對岸有一些涉臺系統釋放出來，賴總統提到中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬的這個論點，事實上也是延續了蔡前總統的四大堅持的第二大堅持，所以就路線上，基調來講，並沒有去……"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，各自的解讀，那是雙方面的。我現在要說的是，就這一次解放軍軍演的動作，您的觀察，還有國安局的掌握，它的目的到底是什麼？是因為賴總統的就職演說有觸犯到什麼嗎？所以中共才有這樣子的一個機動性的軍演。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們的判斷是，就職演說應該只是一個理由啦！它主要是透過這一次針對性的軍演來對內做宣傳，對外做宣示，也就是北京對於臺海情勢有絕對的主導跟掌控權，不管是誰在臺灣擔任總統，我覺得主要的訊息我們是朝這方面來解讀。"],["馬委員文君：所以我們還是要因應嘛！對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：當然。"],["馬委員文君：不管是誰擔任總統，過去的8年前其實並沒有這麼危急，也沒有兵凶戰危。我們現在要提的是，27日美國眾議院外交委員會主席麥考爾議員，其實他也曾經對外說明，中國確實有一些紅線必須要小心，不要跨越，不然將導致一場災難性的戰爭，這是他的說法。請教局長，因為我們是不畏戰、不避戰，而且我們也不想給解放軍有跨越紅線的藉口來破壞和平導致戰爭，你可不可以用比較簡單的、接地氣的方式告訴我們全體國人，因為是我們全體國人要去面對跟承擔所有的戰爭風險，而不是外國人，今天我們都指望有很多國家可以來協助，那個我們沒有辦法做判斷，可是當第一線面對戰爭風險的是我們全體國人，局長，你用比較接地氣、比較簡單的方法告訴我們，所謂的紅線是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想上次在貴院大會這邊做專題報告的時候，也曾經針對這個問題……"],["馬委員文君：比較簡單的說明。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，就是說美國現在跟中國高層的交往，事實上在進行的是一種紅線外交，也就是美國不斷在對中國畫紅線，哪些事情……"],["馬委員文君：局長，我說的是我們自己的紅線，就您掌握的，因為你是國安單位，而且您是局長，就他們提到的，包括美國認知的也好，或者我們應該要有的，所謂的紅線是什麼？很簡單地告訴我們。"],["蔡局長明彥：不管是國際社會、美國或是我們在講的紅線，主要還是在維持臺海的現狀，臺海安全的現狀，這個就是最主要的紅線。"],["馬委員文君：維持臺海的現狀，因為什麼樣的因素有可能改變？"],["蔡局長明彥：假如中共要單方……"],["馬委員文君：這個紅線是什麼？你要具體講出來。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，就是我們的目標是要維持臺海現狀，但是假如中共透過單邊的或武力式的、脅迫性的方式……"],["馬委員文君：它單邊，有可能用什麼樣的藉口？"],["蔡局長明彥：它有可能用這種武力的方式或武力威脅的方式來脅迫我們。"],["馬委員文君：那個我知道，我是說什麼原因啦！局長，你知道我的問題吧？你應該知道所謂的紅線是什麼。"],["蔡局長明彥：我跟委員講一下……"],["馬委員文君：你講不出來？"],["蔡局長明彥：不是，中共所謂的紅線是依照它來定義，它的紅線很清楚……"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，它的定義也沒關係，因為剛剛局長也提到主動權在它，如果以它的定義，它自己的認知，到底什麼是紅線，你讓全體國人知道。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，中共所謂的對臺政策主要有三個路線，基本的基調，反獨、促統、反外力介入，就是這樣。"],["馬委員文君：就這樣嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["馬委員文君：所以就這個部分，在紅線上面我們要怎麼樣去拿捏，其實在整個過程，尤其現在越來越緊張的情勢之下，臺海隨時都面臨很大風險的情況之下，我想整個國安團隊要掌握的訊息應該是這個，而且不要讓我們國人有溫水煮青蛙的心態，因為當國際都非常緊張的情況之下，全體國人好像還不是那麼在乎，這是有很大的風險的。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["馬委員文君：另外，剛剛也有委員提到，我們昨天剛通過的，局長要先回答嗎？沒有？這個部分請國安單位持續掌握，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["馬委員文君：我再用一點點時間，不好意思，主席。很多委員其實有提到，像反滲透法，剛剛局長在回答的時候也有提到，不要把什麼事情都扣上這麼大的紅帽子，所有的交流，我們過去為什麼沒有這樣的問題？今天如果兩岸可以交流，可以有更多的管道，其實我們維持和平就多一個希望，不管是透過任何的管道，不要把每一個人都先打入賣臺。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，對。"],["馬委員文君：如果嚴格說起來，昨天通過的法案，因為大家在擔心的是洩密，我們所有的委員，中華民國的立法委員，其實整個機密的資料他們都是可以看的，當你們在做報告的時候，只是用機密的形式來報告，所以沒有這樣的問題。包括你在做調查或者聽證的時候，在法條裡面訂得非常清楚，不管是國安、外交、國防，如果有屬於機密性質的，它還是受到相關的規範，所以不要把這個統統套在一起，說那個可以拿到哪裡？拿到習近平的桌子上，這是非常可笑的說法！","今天如果有洩密，現在要追究的是這個機密的資料到底有沒有真的洩露出去，這個要查。今天如果我們通過了這個調查權，到底有沒有洩露，包括我們很多重要的國防裝備，包括潛艦，如果第一艘的資料已經洩露出去了，你後面的7艘還可以造嗎？所以要不要查？應該把它查清楚。可是有沒有人把它洩漏給其他不應該知道的？除了立法委員在立法院聽到的或看到的相關資料以外，有些人把更深入的資料給了不該給的人，給了不該給的可能有利益的團體，這個部分也希望國安局可以掌握，不要把它套一個大帽子。","今天如果你沒有能力去掌握，然後什麼都用反滲透法，那你就規定不可以去啊！如果反滲透法要這樣用的話，更恐怖！還有社維法，當初社維法之亂，前幾年的時候，政府辦了很多無辜的老百姓，只要有攻擊到，或者用假訊息，或者你有什麼攻擊政府的言論，就馬上用社維法辦了耶！那不是更恐怖？臺灣是一個民主自由的國家，我們不是口口聲聲這樣說嗎？那你可以讓人民陷於這樣的恐懼之中嗎？而且隨便就辦，結果都沒有問題，所以就這個部分，時間的關係，不好意思。"],["蔡局長明彥：我一句……"],["馬委員文君：昨天那個部分，國安局應該要有一個高度，今天我們外面已經充滿危險，已經充滿動盪，如果內部是由我們自己引發這樣子的動亂，而且還要刻意去把它歸咎給哪一個政黨或哪些人，這樣只會造成更大的動亂。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，一句話，就是說反滲透的部分，對於兩岸正常合法的交流，我們都予以尊重，沒有意見。可能我們會特別關注的是，有任何違反反滲透法相關法律要件的部分，而且要有具體證據，我們就會啟動相關的……"],["馬委員文君：那當然嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：這是我們的態度。"],["馬委員文君：所以你官員在質詢臺上，如果你講的是實話，也不會被調查啊！今天你不要有違法亂紀的行為，也不會被處罰，就這麼簡單。今天法律制定的一個重要目的就是在這裡，所以不要隨便亂套……"],["蔡局長明彥：不會。"],["馬委員文君：也不要隨便把所有的都當成是一個賣國的對象或政黨，這是非常可笑的，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，不會亂套，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬委員。","下面請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-22","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","洪申翰","陳永康","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","賴士葆","沈伯洋","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","張啓楷","林宜瑾","林憶君","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、外交部、大陸委員會報告「第十六屆總統就職後國際暨兩岸情勢發\n展對我國安之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135301_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"153239","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153239","tool":"pyannote","id":"153239-pyannote"},"job_id":"Kec3apwuGgcDx2Gk","queued_at":"2024-05-30 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\"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 873.537, \"end\": 873.797, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 873.797, \"end\": 873.937, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 873.937, \"end\": 874.017, \"score\": 0.713}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 874.017, \"end\": 874.538, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 874.538, \"end\": 874.698, \"score\": 0.741}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 874.698, \"end\": 875.078, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 875.078, \"end\": 875.258, \"score\": 0.694}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 875.258, \"end\": 875.278, \"score\": 0.219}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"馬\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 876.319, \"end\": 876.339, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"en\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,936 --> 00:00:01,738\n謝 謝 主 席 , 麻 煩 請 蔡 局 長\n\n2\n00:00:12,738 --> 00:00:30,190\n因 為 今 天 有 非 常 多 的 委 員 也 非 常 關 切 就 是 說 在 我 們 這 一 次 在 總 統 就 職 以 後 中 共 的 一 個 軍 演 其 實 他 到 底 是 什 麼 樣 的 目 的 然 後 他 的 作 為 還 有 他 發 展 的 狀 況\n\n3\n00:00:31,491 --> 00:00:50,768\n因 為 局 長 在 上 一 次 質 詢 的 時 候 大 概 5 月 1 號 吧 你 們 曾 經 提 到 說 5 2 0 之 後 從 6 月 到 1 1 月 是 中 國 例 行 的 軍 演 的 季 節 進 入 軍 演 熱 季 那 國 安 局 他 關 注 的 重 點 是 中 共 會 不 會 藉 口 進 行 一 些 軍 事 演 習 來 對 台 灣 施 壓 媒 體 報 導\n\n4\n00:00:54,758 --> 00:01:19,827\n其 實 也 提 到 新 國 安 團 隊 曾 經 在 一 場 內 部 的 簡 報 當 中 指 出 總 統 就 職 前 後 的 中 共 軍 演 都 是 在 意 料 之 中 也 都 是 基 本 動 作 那 就 局 長 的 判 斷 這 一 次 在 5 2 0 之 後 的 三 天 就 展 開 的 這 樣 的 軍 演 這 是 它 的 例 行 性 的 基 本 動 作 呢 還 是 突 發 性 的 就 國 安 局 掌 握 的 狀 況 是 什 麼 樣\n\n5\n00:01:21,868 --> 00:01:42,166\n當 時 在 立 法 院 說 明 的 時 候 我 們 就 稍 微 強 調 就 中 共 他 對 台 的 這 種 聯 合 戰 備 警 訊 已 經 常 態 化 了 那 這 個 部 分 從 1 月 1 3 號 到 5 2 0 他 可 能 會 不 斷 地 用 常 態 化 的 聯 合 戰 備 警 訊 來 對 我 們 施 壓 那 我 當 時 也 提 醒 了 因 為 從 6 月 到 1 0 月 甚 至 1 1 月 是 他 演 習 的 熱 季 所 以 下 個 階 段 5 月 這 個 有 沒 有 掌 握 到\n\n6\n00:01:42,886 --> 00:01:55,608\n五 月 這 個 階 段 我 們 大 概 剛 也 提 到 從 一 月 十 三 到 五 二 零 我 們 大 概 都 有 推 演 各 種 可 能 的 狀 況 而 老 實 跟 我 們 報 告 在 中 共 宣 布 軍 演 期 間 事 實 上 他 的 船 艦 已 經 開 始 動 員 對 軍 演 那 個 我 們 知 道 因 為 他 六 月 就 有 常 態 性 的 一 些 軍 事 演 習 這 個 已 經 是 例 行 就 跟 我 們 漢 光 演 習 一 樣 可 是 我 要 問 的 是 五 月 二 十 三 號 的 這 一 場 這 個 我 們 事 實 上 有 沒 有 掌 握 到 因 為\n\n7\n00:02:09,851 --> 00:02:29,643\n像 剛 剛 您 說 其 實 它 的 兵 力 沒 有 比 較 多 可 是 它 的 範 圍 是 比 較 大 然 後 它 這 一 次 是 用 四 個 軍 種 陸 海 空 軍 還 有 火 箭 軍 對 於 我 們 的 壓 縮 其 實 是 更 近 了 尤 其 它 這 一 次 軍 演 的 那 種 項 目 其 實 對 於 反 介 入 跟 區 域 戒 指\n\n8\n00:02:33,886 --> 00:02:36,649\n其 實 是 比 較 明 顯 的 態 勢 那 我 想 要 請 教 的 是 就 5 2 0 以 後 這 個 三 天 我 們 有 沒 有 掌 握 ? 它 會 發 生 ? 你 們 已 經 知 道 了 嗎 ? 因 為 跟 委 員 說 明 的 是 事 實 上 大 概 在 5 月 的 1 8 號 左 右 它 的 船 艦 都 已 經 開 始 在 活 動 了\n\n9\n00:02:52,728 --> 00:02:55,311\n那 這 種 活 動 的 態 勢 我 們 一 判 就 會 發 現 這 是 有 點 偽 異 常 的 而 且 慢 慢 的 往 台 海 地 區 的 周 邊 水 域 在 移 動 那 這 我 們 就 發 現 的 真 猴 了 那 這 樣 有 兩 個 問 題 因 為 我 們 在 5 月 1 8 號 已 經 發 現 它 的 軍 艦 其 實 已 經 在 活 動 可 是 其 實 我 們 現 在 每 天 都 有 基 建 在 活 動\n\n10\n00:03:15,270 --> 00:03:36,824\n可 是 這 個 有 沒 有 產 生 變 化 ? 國 安 局 的 掌 握 就 局 長 您 剛 剛 的 說 法 是 已 經 有 掌 握 到 了 那 我 們 還 派 出 這 麼 多 的 在 5 2 0 的 時 候 我 們 還 派 出 了 3 7 架 的 那 個 軍 機 而 且 都 是 我 們 重 要 的 現 在 的 主 力 戰 機 不 管 是 F 1 6 我 們 的 I D F 還 有 我 們 現 在 的 高 校 機 還 有\n\n11\n00:03:39,045 --> 00:03:42,508\n國 軍 在 展 演 的 飛 機 跟 相 關 的 戰 備 的 飛 機 他 是 有 做 任 務 的 分 工 的 而 且 每 天 的 載 空 機 都 有 一 定 的 數 量 在\n\n12\n00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:17,358\n你 知 道 可 是 當 他 是 演 習 不 是 他 常 態 性 的 就 他 每 天 的 一 個 基 建 的 擾 台 的 部 分 那 我 們 就 已 經 有 掌 握 了 我 們 還 做 出 這 樣 的 一 個 選 擇 或 者 另 外 我 們 比 較 擔 心 的 就 是 解 放 軍 的 動 員 能 力 非 常 強\n\n13\n00:04:18,479 --> 00:04:42,981\n因 為 他 在 5 2 0 之 後 , 平 常 他 在 6 月 以 後 嘛 他 為 什 麼 這 一 次 沒 有 掛 單 很 大 的 一 個 可 能 性 是 因 為 他 非 常 激 動 他 還 沒 有 來 得 及 去 做 一 個 公 告 因 為 你 如 果 正 常 的 要 實 彈 的 話 其 實 他 必 須 要 公 告 還 有 他 演 習 的 區 域 範 圍 所 以 這 一 次 兩 天 很 重 要 的 他 的 目 的 就 國 安 局 掌 握 就 局 長 您 的 看 法 為 什 麼 會 這 樣 做\n\n14\n00:04:44,489 --> 00:05:12,728\n對 我 們 的 判 斷 我 跟 委 員 做 個 說 明 就 是 說 軍 事 上 他 當 然 是 在 對 我 們 進 行 恫 嚇 但 是 在 政 治 上 我 剛 剛 也 跟 王 定 偉 在 做 說 明 的 是 他 也 有 做 一 些 必 要 的 這 種 風 險 的 控 管 那 所 以 說 他 並 沒 有 宣 布 進 航 區 他 並 沒 有 發 射 實 彈 假 如 又 宣 布 進 航 區 又 發 射 實 彈 的 話 那 演 習 規 模 又 比 照 到 當 時 裴 若 曦 2 0 2 2 年 8 月 訪 台 的 話 他 所 造 成 國 際 社 會 的 關 注 程 度 會 非 常 非 常 的 高\n\n15\n00:05:14,269 --> 00:05:17,893\n因 為 2 0 2 2 年 培 洛 西 議 長 訪 台 的 時 候 那 個 已 經 是 拉 很 長 的 時 間 而 且 他 們 也 做 了 預 告 所 以 他 可 以 去 有 時 間 公 告 我 們 現 在 比 較 擔 心 的 他 短 短 的 兩 天 之 內 他 已 經 迅 速 的 集 結 而 且 很 多 人 根 本 不 知 道 沒 有 掌 握 到 因 為 我 們\n\n16\n00:05:32,887 --> 00:05:48,774\n本 來 給 我 們 的 資 訊 就 包 括 國 安 局 你 們 當 時 跟 立 法 院 說 明 的 部 分 其 實 也 都 是 到 6 月 以 後 他 們 常 態 的 演 訊 所 以 這 個 部 分 我 們 必 須 要 關 注 的 是 他 在 這 麼 短 的 時 間 可 以 這 樣 做 所 以 他 速 戰\n\n17\n00:05:49,955 --> 00:05:51,635\n這 個 動 員 的 速 度 加 快 這 我 們 有 在 注 意\n\n18\n00:06:15,481 --> 00:06:35,472\n所 以 他 為 什 麼 會 有 這 個 演 習 ? 局 長 你 掌 握 的 是 什 麼 樣 的 狀 況 ? 為 什 麼 會 有 這 個 ? 是 因 為 賴 總 統 的 演 說 嗎 ? 沒 有 , 因 為 演 說 的 部 分 , 我 剛 才 跟 媒 體 說 明 , 因 為 演 說 主 要 的 內 容 還 是 在 延 續 到 維 持 台 海 現 狀 的 相 關 政 策 的 路 線 跟 基 調\n\n19\n00:06:36,272 --> 00:07:01,003\n那 有 一 些 對 岸 的 涉 台 系 統 釋 放 出 來 賴 總 統 提 到 中 華 民 國 跟 中 華 人 民 共 和 國 或 不 隸 屬 的 這 個 論 點 事 實 上 也 是 延 續 了 蔡 總 統 蔡 前 總 統 的 四 大 堅 持 的 第 二 大 堅 持 所 以 就 路 線 上 基 調 來 講 沒 關 係 各 自 的 解 讀 那 是 雙 方 面 的 我 現 在 要 說 的 是 可 是 就 這 一 次 解 放 軍 這 樣 子 的 一 個 軍 演 的 一 個 動 作 您 的 觀 察 還 有\n\n20\n00:07:01,644 --> 00:07:12,504\n國 安 局 掌 握 的 目 的 到 底 是 什 麼 他 是 因 為 我 們 的 就 職 演 說 賴 總 統 的 就 職 演 說 是 有 觸 犯 到 什 麼 嗎 所 以 他 才 有 這 樣 子 的 一 個\n\n21\n00:07:13,635 --> 00:07:16,477\n主 要 是 透 過 這 一 次 的 針 對 性 的 軍 演 來 對 內 做 宣 傳 對 外 做 宣 示 也 就 是 北 京 對 於 台 海 情 勢 他 有 絕 對 的 主 導 跟 掌 控 權 不 管 是 誰 在 台 灣 擔 任 總 統\n\n22\n00:07:32,490 --> 00:08:00,664\n所 以 我 們 還 是 要 因 應 嘛 對 不 對 不 管 是 誰 擔 任 總 統 過 去 的 八 年 前 其 實 並 沒 有 這 麼 危 急 也 沒 有 兵 凶 戰 危 我 們 現 在 要 提 的 是 2 7 日 美 國 眾 議 院 外 交 委 員 會 主 席 麥 考 爾 議 員 其 實 他 也 曾 經 對 外 說 明 中 國 確 實 有 一 些 紅 線 必 須 要 小 心 不 要 跨 越 不 然 將 導 致 一 場 災 難 性 的 戰 爭 他 的 說 法 我 們 可 不 可 以 請 教 局 長\n\n23\n00:08:01,664 --> 00:08:27,649\n在 像 這 樣 子 因 為 我 們 是 不 為 戰 不 避 戰 而 且 我 們 也 不 想 給 解 放 軍 他 有 跨 越 紅 線 的 藉 口 來 破 壞 和 平 來 導 致 戰 爭 那 可 不 可 以 你 用 比 較 簡 單 的 接 地 氣 的 方 式 告 訴 我 們 全 體 國 人 因 為 這 是 我 們 全 體 國 人 要 去 面 對 跟 承 擔 的 所 有 的 戰 爭 風 險 而 不 是 外 國 人 今 天 我 們 都 指 望 有 很 多 國 家 可 以 來 協 助 那 個\n\n24\n00:08:28,749 --> 00:08:36,734\n我 們 沒 有 辦 法 做 判 斷 可 是 當 第 一 線 面 對 戰 爭 風 險 的 是 我 們 全 體 國 人 局 長 你 用 比 較 接 地 氣 比 較 簡 單 的 方 法 告 訴 我 們 所 謂 的 紅 線 是 什 麼 對 我 想 上 次 在 貴 院 大 會 這 邊 做 專 題 報 告 的 時 候 也 曾 經 針 對 這 問 題 比 較 簡 單 的 就 是 說 美 國 現 在 跟 中 國 的 高 層 的 交 往 事 實 上 在 進 行 的 是 一 種 紅 線 外 交 也 就 是 美 國 不 斷 在 對 中 國 畫 紅 線\n\n25\n00:08:57,025 --> 00:09:01,947\n我 們 不 管 是 國 際 社 會 美 國 或 是 我 們 在 講 的 紅 線 主 要 的 還 是 在 維 持 臺 海 的 現 狀 臺 海 安 全 的 現 狀 那 這 個 就 是 最 主 要 的 紅 線\n\n26\n00:09:23,941 --> 00:09:30,003\n維 持 台 海 現 狀 因 為 什 麼 樣 的 因 素 有 可 能 改 變 ? 這 個 紅 線 是 什 麼 ? 因 為 你 要 把 具 體 講 出 來 我 們 的 目 標 是 要 維 持 台 海 現 狀 但 是 假 如 中 共 它 是 透 過 單 邊 的 或 武 力 式 的 斜 過 性 的 方 式 它 單 邊 有 可 能 用 什 麼 樣 的 藉 口 嗎 ?\n\n27\n00:09:40,047 --> 00:09:46,431\n對 , 他 有 可 能 用 的 是 這 種 武 力 的 方 式 或 武 力 威 脅 的 方 式 來 脅 迫 我 們 那 個 我 知 道 了 , 我 說 的 是 什 麼 原 因 啊 ? 局 長 你 知 道 我 的 問 題 吧 ? 你 應 該 知 道 所 謂 的 紅 線 是 什 麼 但 我 跟 委 員 講 一 下 啦 你 講 不 出 來 不 是 , 中 共 的 所 謂 的 紅 線 是 依 照 他 來 定 義 對 , 沒 關 係 他 的 定 義 也 沒 關 係 因 為 主 動 權 , 剛 剛 局 長 也 提 到 主 動 權 在 他 如 果 以 他 的 定 義 , 他 自 己 的 認 知 到 底 什 麼 是 紅 線 , 你 讓 全 體 國 人 知 道\n\n28\n00:10:07,643 --> 00:10:16,610\n中 共 所 謂 的 對 台 政 策 主 要 有 三 個 路 線 基 本 的 基 調 反 突 出 頭 反 外 力 介 入 就 是 這 樣 所 以 就 這 個 部 分 在 這 個 紅 線 上 面 我 們 要 怎 麼 樣 去 拿 捏 其 實 也 是 在 我 們 整 個 過 程 尤 其 現 在 越 來 越 緊 張 的 情 勢 之 下 台 海\n\n29\n00:10:27,199 --> 00:10:27,679\n我 們 昨 天 剛 通 過 了\n\n30\n00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:21,773\n局 長 先 回 剛 剛 那 個 嗎 沒 有 這 個 部 分 我 們 請 國 安 單 位 持 續 掌 握 好 不 好 那 我 再 用 一 點 點 時 間 不 好 意 思 出 席 就 很 多 委 員 其 實 有 提 到 說 像 反 滲 透 法 剛 剛 局 長 也 有 在 回 答 的 時 候 有 提 到 不 要 把 什 麼 事 情 都 扣 上 這 麼 大 的 紅 帽 子\n\n31\n00:11:22,921 --> 00:11:41,032\n所 有 的 交 流 今 天 我 們 過 去 為 什 麼 沒 有 這 樣 的 問 題 今 天 如 果 兩 岸 可 以 交 流 可 以 有 更 多 的 管 道 其 實 我 們 維 持 和 平 就 有 多 一 個 希 望 不 管 是 透 過 任 何 的 管 道 不 要 把 每 一 個 人 都 先 打 入 賣 台\n\n32\n00:11:42,333 --> 00:12:06,124\n如 果 嚴 格 說 起 來 昨 天 通 過 的 法 案 因 為 大 家 在 擔 心 的 是 什 麼 洩 密 我 們 所 有 的 委 員 中 華 民 國 的 立 法 委 員 其 實 在 整 個 機 密 的 資 料 裡 面 其 實 他 們 都 是 可 以 看 的 當 你 們 在 做 報 告 的 時 候 只 是 用 機 密 的 形 式 來 報 告 所 以 沒 有 這 樣 的 問 題 包 括 你 在 做 調 查 或 者 聽 證 的 時 候\n\n33\n00:12:07,685 --> 00:12:24,195\n在 法 條 裡 面 定 得 非 常 清 楚 不 管 是 國 安 、 外 交 、 國 防 如 果 有 屬 於 機 密 性 質 的 它 還 是 受 到 相 關 的 規 範 所 以 不 要 把 這 個 統 統 套 在 一 起 那 個 可 以 拿 到 哪 裡 拿 到 習 近 平 的 桌 子 上 這 是 非 常 可 笑 的 說 法\n\n34\n00:12:24,995 --> 00:12:39,342\n今 天 如 果 有 洩 密 現 在 要 追 究 的 是 到 底 誰 把 這 個 機 密 的 資 料 到 底 真 的 有 沒 有 洩 漏 出 去 這 個 要 查 今 天 如 果 我 們 通 過 了 這 個 調 查 權 到 底 有 沒 有 包 括 我 們 很 多 的 重 要 的 國 防 裝 備 包 括 潛 艦\n\n35\n00:12:41,443 --> 00:12:45,467\n如 果 第 一 艘 的 資 料 已 經 洩 漏 出 去 了 你 後 面 的 七 艘 還 可 以 照 嗎 ? 所 以 要 不 要 查 ? 應 該 把 它 查 清 楚 可 是 有 沒 有 人 把 它 洩 漏 給 其 他 不 應 該 知 道 的 除 了 立 法 委 員 在 我 們 的 立 法 院 聽 到 的 或 看 到 的 相 關 資 料 以 外 有 些 人 把 更 深 入 的 資 料 給 了 不 該 給 的 人 給 了\n\n36\n00:13:02,332 --> 00:13:20,671\n不 該 給 的 像 這 樣 子 的 可 能 有 利 益 的 團 體 這 個 部 分 國 安 局 也 希 望 你 們 可 以 掌 握 這 個 部 分 不 要 把 它 套 一 個 大 帽 子 今 天 如 果 說 你 沒 有 能 力 去 掌 握 然 後 什 麼 都 跟 這 個 反 送 滲 透 法 大 家 去 一 趟 那 你 就 規 定 不 可 以 去 啊\n\n37\n00:13:21,963 --> 00:13:49,213\n你 如 果 說 反 滲 透 法 要 這 樣 用 的 話 更 恐 怖 還 有 社 會 法 當 初 社 會 法 之 亂 前 幾 年 的 時 候 政 府 辦 了 很 多 無 辜 的 老 百 姓 只 要 有 攻 擊 到 或 者 什 麼 用 假 訊 息 或 者 你 有 什 麼 攻 擊 政 府 的 言 論 就 馬 上 用 社 會 法 辦 了 那 不 是 更 恐 怖 臺 灣 是 一 個 民 主 自 由 的 國 家 我 們 不 是 口 口 聲 聲 這 樣 說 嗎 那 你 可 以 讓 人 民 陷 於 這 樣 的 恐 懼 之 中 嗎 而 且 隨 便 就 辦\n\n38\n00:13:51,013 --> 00:14:06,297\n長 場 還 是 結 果 都 沒 有 問 題 所 以 就 這 個 部 分 時 間 的 關 係 不 好 意 思 這 部 分 國 安 局 應 該 要 有 一 個 高 度 今 天 如 果 要 我 們 外 面 已 經 充 滿 危 險 已 經 充 滿 動 盪 如 果 內 部 是 由 我 們 自 己 引 發 的 這 樣 子 的 動 亂 而 且 還 要 刻 意 去 把 它 歸 咎 給 哪 一 個 政 黨 或 哪 些 人 這 樣 子 會 造 成 更 大 的 動 亂\n\n39\n00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:35,278\n一 句 話 就 是 說 反 滲 透 的 部 分 對 於 兩 岸 正 常 合 法 的 交 流 我 們 都 予 以 尊 重 沒 有 意 見 那 可 能 我 們 會 特 別 關 注 的 是 有 任 何 違 反 到 反 滲 透 法 相 關 的 法 律 要 件 的 部 分 而 且 要 有 具 體 證 據 我 們 就 會 啟 動 相 關 的 那 當 然 嘛 所 以 你 官 員 如 果 在\n\n40\n00:14:36,319 --> 00:14:36,339\n謝 謝 馬 委 員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n936\t1738\t謝謝主席,麻煩請蔡局長\n12738\t30190\t因為今天有非常多的委員也非常關切就是說在我們這一次在總統就職以後中共的一個軍演其實他到底是什麼樣的目的然後他的作為還有他發展的狀況\n31491\t50768\t因為局長在上一次質詢的時候大概5月1號吧你們曾經提到說520之後從6月到11月是中國例行的軍演的季節進入軍演熱季那國安局他關注的重點是中共會不會藉口進行一些軍事演習來對台灣施壓媒體報導\n54758\t79827\t其實也提到新國安團隊曾經在一場內部的簡報當中指出總統就職前後的中共軍演都是在意料之中也都是基本動作那就局長的判斷這一次在520之後的三天就展開的這樣的軍演這是它的例行性的基本動作呢還是突發性的就國安局掌握的狀況是什麼樣\n81868\t102166\t當時在立法院說明的時候我們就稍微強調就中共他對台的這種聯合戰備警訊已經常態化了那這個部分從1月13號到520他可能會不斷地用常態化的聯合戰備警訊來對我們施壓那我當時也提醒了因為從6月到10月甚至11月是他演習的熱季所以下個階段5月這個有沒有掌握到\n102886\t115608\t五月這個階段我們大概剛也提到從一月十三到五二零我們大概都有推演各種可能的狀況而老實跟我們報告在中共宣布軍演期間事實上他的船艦已經開始動員對軍演那個我們知道因為他六月就有常態性的一些軍事演習這個已經是例行就跟我們漢光演習一樣可是我要問的是五月二十三號的這一場這個我們事實上有沒有掌握到因為\n129851\t149643\t像剛剛您說其實它的兵力沒有比較多可是它的範圍是比較大然後它這一次是用四個軍種陸海空軍還有火箭軍對於我們的壓縮其實是更近了尤其它這一次軍演的那種項目其實對於反介入跟區域戒指\n153886\t156649\t其實是比較明顯的態勢那我想要請教的是就520以後這個三天我們有沒有掌握?它會發生?你們已經知道了嗎?因為跟委員說明的是事實上大概在5月的18號左右它的船艦都已經開始在活動了\n172728\t175311\t那這種活動的態勢我們一判就會發現這是有點偽異常的而且慢慢的往台海地區的周邊水域在移動那這我們就發現的真猴了那這樣有兩個問題因為我們在5月18號已經發現它的軍艦其實已經在活動可是其實我們現在每天都有基建在活動\n195270\t216824\t可是這個有沒有產生變化?國安局的掌握就局長您剛剛的說法是已經有掌握到了那我們還派出這麼多的在520的時候我們還派出了37架的那個軍機而且都是我們重要的現在的主力戰機不管是F16我們的IDF還有我們現在的高校機還有\n219045\t222508\t國軍在展演的飛機跟相關的戰備的飛機他是有做任務的分工的而且每天的載空機都有一定的數量在\n238360\t257358\t你知道可是當他是演習不是他常態性的就他每天的一個基建的擾台的部分那我們就已經有掌握了我們還做出這樣的一個選擇或者另外我們比較擔心的就是解放軍的動員能力非常強\n258479\t282981\t因為他在520之後,平常他在6月以後嘛他為什麼這一次沒有掛單很大的一個可能性是因為他非常激動他還沒有來得及去做一個公告因為你如果正常的要實彈的話其實他必須要公告還有他演習的區域範圍所以這一次兩天很重要的他的目的就國安局掌握就局長您的看法為什麼會這樣做\n284489\t312728\t對我們的判斷我跟委員做個說明就是說軍事上他當然是在對我們進行恫嚇但是在政治上我剛剛也跟王定偉在做說明的是他也有做一些必要的這種風險的控管那所以說他並沒有宣布進航區他並沒有發射實彈假如又宣布進航區又發射實彈的話那演習規模又比照到當時裴若曦2022年8月訪台的話他所造成國際社會的關注程度會非常非常的高\n314269\t317893\t因為2022年培洛西議長訪台的時候那個已經是拉很長的時間而且他們也做了預告所以他可以去有時間公告我們現在比較擔心的他短短的兩天之內他已經迅速的集結而且很多人根本不知道沒有掌握到因為我們\n332887\t348774\t本來給我們的資訊就包括國安局你們當時跟立法院說明的部分其實也都是到6月以後他們常態的演訊所以這個部分我們必須要關注的是他在這麼短的時間可以這樣做所以他速戰\n349955\t351635\t這個動員的速度加快這我們有在注意\n375481\t395472\t所以他為什麼會有這個演習?局長你掌握的是什麼樣的狀況?為什麼會有這個?是因為賴總統的演說嗎?沒有,因為演說的部分,我剛才跟媒體說明,因為演說主要的內容還是在延續到維持台海現狀的相關政策的路線跟基調\n396272\t421003\t那有一些對岸的涉台系統釋放出來賴總統提到中華民國跟中華人民共和國或不隸屬的這個論點事實上也是延續了蔡總統蔡前總統的四大堅持的第二大堅持所以就路線上基調來講沒關係各自的解讀那是雙方面的我現在要說的是可是就這一次解放軍這樣子的一個軍演的一個動作您的觀察還有\n421644\t432504\t國安局掌握的目的到底是什麼他是因為我們的就職演說賴總統的就職演說是有觸犯到什麼嗎所以他才有這樣子的一個\n433635\t436477\t主要是透過這一次的針對性的軍演來對內做宣傳對外做宣示也就是北京對於台海情勢他有絕對的主導跟掌控權不管是誰在台灣擔任總統\n452490\t480664\t所以我們還是要因應嘛對不對不管是誰擔任總統過去的八年前其實並沒有這麼危急也沒有兵凶戰危我們現在要提的是27日美國眾議院外交委員會主席麥考爾議員其實他也曾經對外說明中國確實有一些紅線必須要小心不要跨越不然將導致一場災難性的戰爭他的說法我們可不可以請教局長\n481664\t507649\t在像這樣子因為我們是不為戰不避戰而且我們也不想給解放軍他有跨越紅線的藉口來破壞和平來導致戰爭那可不可以你用比較簡單的接地氣的方式告訴我們全體國人因為這是我們全體國人要去面對跟承擔的所有的戰爭風險而不是外國人今天我們都指望有很多國家可以來協助那個\n508749\t516734\t我們沒有辦法做判斷可是當第一線面對戰爭風險的是我們全體國人局長你用比較接地氣比較簡單的方法告訴我們所謂的紅線是什麼對我想上次在貴院大會這邊做專題報告的時候也曾經針對這問題比較簡單的就是說美國現在跟中國的高層的交往事實上在進行的是一種紅線外交也就是美國不斷在對中國畫紅線\n537025\t541947\t我們不管是國際社會美國或是我們在講的紅線主要的還是在維持臺海的現狀臺海安全的現狀那這個就是最主要的紅線\n563941\t570003\t維持台海現狀因為什麼樣的因素有可能改變?這個紅線是什麼?因為你要把具體講出來我們的目標是要維持台海現狀但是假如中共它是透過單邊的或武力式的斜過性的方式它單邊有可能用什麼樣的藉口嗎?\n580047\t586431\t對,他有可能用的是這種武力的方式或武力威脅的方式來脅迫我們那個我知道了,我說的是什麼原因啊?局長你知道我的問題吧?你應該知道所謂的紅線是什麼但我跟委員講一下啦你講不出來不是,中共的所謂的紅線是依照他來定義對,沒關係他的定義也沒關係因為主動權,剛剛局長也提到主動權在他如果以他的定義,他自己的認知到底什麼是紅線,你讓全體國人知道\n607643\t616610\t中共所謂的對台政策主要有三個路線基本的基調反突出頭反外力介入就是這樣所以就這個部分在這個紅線上面我們要怎麼樣去拿捏其實也是在我們整個過程尤其現在越來越緊張的情勢之下台海\n627199\t627679\t我們昨天剛通過了\n656880\t681773\t局長先回剛剛那個嗎沒有這個部分我們請國安單位持續掌握好不好那我再用一點點時間不好意思出席就很多委員其實有提到說像反滲透法剛剛局長也有在回答的時候有提到不要把什麼事情都扣上這麼大的紅帽子\n682921\t701032\t所有的交流今天我們過去為什麼沒有這樣的問題今天如果兩岸可以交流可以有更多的管道其實我們維持和平就有多一個希望不管是透過任何的管道不要把每一個人都先打入賣台\n702333\t726124\t如果嚴格說起來昨天通過的法案因為大家在擔心的是什麼洩密我們所有的委員中華民國的立法委員其實在整個機密的資料裡面其實他們都是可以看的當你們在做報告的時候只是用機密的形式來報告所以沒有這樣的問題包括你在做調查或者聽證的時候\n727685\t744195\t在法條裡面定得非常清楚不管是國安、外交、國防如果有屬於機密性質的它還是受到相關的規範所以不要把這個統統套在一起那個可以拿到哪裡拿到習近平的桌子上這是非常可笑的說法\n744995\t759342\t今天如果有洩密現在要追究的是到底誰把這個機密的資料到底真的有沒有洩漏出去這個要查今天如果我們通過了這個調查權到底有沒有包括我們很多的重要的國防裝備包括潛艦\n761443\t765467\t如果第一艘的資料已經洩漏出去了你後面的七艘還可以照嗎?所以要不要查?應該把它查清楚可是有沒有人把它洩漏給其他不應該知道的除了立法委員在我們的立法院聽到的或看到的相關資料以外有些人把更深入的資料給了不該給的人給了\n782332\t800671\t不該給的像這樣子的可能有利益的團體這個部分國安局也希望你們可以掌握這個部分不要把它套一個大帽子今天如果說你沒有能力去掌握然後什麼都跟這個反送滲透法大家去一趟那你就規定不可以去啊\n801963\t829213\t你如果說反滲透法要這樣用的話更恐怖還有社會法當初社會法之亂前幾年的時候政府辦了很多無辜的老百姓只要有攻擊到或者什麼用假訊息或者你有什麼攻擊政府的言論就馬上用社會法辦了那不是更恐怖臺灣是一個民主自由的國家我們不是口口聲聲這樣說嗎那你可以讓人民陷於這樣的恐懼之中嗎而且隨便就辦\n831013\t846297\t長場還是結果都沒有問題所以就這個部分時間的關係不好意思這部分國安局應該要有一個高度今天如果要我們外面已經充滿危險已經充滿動盪如果內部是由我們自己引發的這樣子的動亂而且還要刻意去把它歸咎給哪一個政黨或哪些人這樣子會造成更大的動亂\n858360\t875278\t一句話就是說反滲透的部分對於兩岸正常合法的交流我們都予以尊重沒有意見那可能我們會特別關注的是有任何違反到反滲透法相關的法律要件的部分而且要有具體證據我們就會啟動相關的那當然嘛所以你官員如果在\n876319\t876339\t謝謝馬委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席,麻煩請蔡局長\n因為今天有非常多的委員也非常關切就是說在我們這一次在總統就職以後中共的一個軍演其實他到底是什麼樣的目的然後他的作為還有他發展的狀況\n因為局長在上一次質詢的時候大概5月1號吧你們曾經提到說520之後從6月到11月是中國例行的軍演的季節進入軍演熱季那國安局他關注的重點是中共會不會藉口進行一些軍事演習來對台灣施壓媒體報導\n其實也提到新國安團隊曾經在一場內部的簡報當中指出總統就職前後的中共軍演都是在意料之中也都是基本動作那就局長的判斷這一次在520之後的三天就展開的這樣的軍演這是它的例行性的基本動作呢還是突發性的就國安局掌握的狀況是什麼樣\n當時在立法院說明的時候我們就稍微強調就中共他對台的這種聯合戰備警訊已經常態化了那這個部分從1月13號到520他可能會不斷地用常態化的聯合戰備警訊來對我們施壓那我當時也提醒了因為從6月到10月甚至11月是他演習的熱季所以下個階段5月這個有沒有掌握到\n五月這個階段我們大概剛也提到從一月十三到五二零我們大概都有推演各種可能的狀況而老實跟我們報告在中共宣布軍演期間事實上他的船艦已經開始動員對軍演那個我們知道因為他六月就有常態性的一些軍事演習這個已經是例行就跟我們漢光演習一樣可是我要問的是五月二十三號的這一場這個我們事實上有沒有掌握到因為\n像剛剛您說其實它的兵力沒有比較多可是它的範圍是比較大然後它這一次是用四個軍種陸海空軍還有火箭軍對於我們的壓縮其實是更近了尤其它這一次軍演的那種項目其實對於反介入跟區域戒指\n其實是比較明顯的態勢那我想要請教的是就520以後這個三天我們有沒有掌握?它會發生?你們已經知道了嗎?因為跟委員說明的是事實上大概在5月的18號左右它的船艦都已經開始在活動了\n那這種活動的態勢我們一判就會發現這是有點偽異常的而且慢慢的往台海地區的周邊水域在移動那這我們就發現的真猴了那這樣有兩個問題因為我們在5月18號已經發現它的軍艦其實已經在活動可是其實我們現在每天都有基建在活動\n可是這個有沒有產生變化?國安局的掌握就局長您剛剛的說法是已經有掌握到了那我們還派出這麼多的在520的時候我們還派出了37架的那個軍機而且都是我們重要的現在的主力戰機不管是F16我們的IDF還有我們現在的高校機還有\n國軍在展演的飛機跟相關的戰備的飛機他是有做任務的分工的而且每天的載空機都有一定的數量在\n你知道可是當他是演習不是他常態性的就他每天的一個基建的擾台的部分那我們就已經有掌握了我們還做出這樣的一個選擇或者另外我們比較擔心的就是解放軍的動員能力非常強\n因為他在520之後,平常他在6月以後嘛他為什麼這一次沒有掛單很大的一個可能性是因為他非常激動他還沒有來得及去做一個公告因為你如果正常的要實彈的話其實他必須要公告還有他演習的區域範圍所以這一次兩天很重要的他的目的就國安局掌握就局長您的看法為什麼會這樣做\n對我們的判斷我跟委員做個說明就是說軍事上他當然是在對我們進行恫嚇但是在政治上我剛剛也跟王定偉在做說明的是他也有做一些必要的這種風險的控管那所以說他並沒有宣布進航區他並沒有發射實彈假如又宣布進航區又發射實彈的話那演習規模又比照到當時裴若曦2022年8月訪台的話他所造成國際社會的關注程度會非常非常的高\n因為2022年培洛西議長訪台的時候那個已經是拉很長的時間而且他們也做了預告所以他可以去有時間公告我們現在比較擔心的他短短的兩天之內他已經迅速的集結而且很多人根本不知道沒有掌握到因為我們\n本來給我們的資訊就包括國安局你們當時跟立法院說明的部分其實也都是到6月以後他們常態的演訊所以這個部分我們必須要關注的是他在這麼短的時間可以這樣做所以他速戰\n這個動員的速度加快這我們有在注意\n所以他為什麼會有這個演習?局長你掌握的是什麼樣的狀況?為什麼會有這個?是因為賴總統的演說嗎?沒有,因為演說的部分,我剛才跟媒體說明,因為演說主要的內容還是在延續到維持台海現狀的相關政策的路線跟基調\n那有一些對岸的涉台系統釋放出來賴總統提到中華民國跟中華人民共和國或不隸屬的這個論點事實上也是延續了蔡總統蔡前總統的四大堅持的第二大堅持所以就路線上基調來講沒關係各自的解讀那是雙方面的我現在要說的是可是就這一次解放軍這樣子的一個軍演的一個動作您的觀察還有\n國安局掌握的目的到底是什麼他是因為我們的就職演說賴總統的就職演說是有觸犯到什麼嗎所以他才有這樣子的一個\n主要是透過這一次的針對性的軍演來對內做宣傳對外做宣示也就是北京對於台海情勢他有絕對的主導跟掌控權不管是誰在台灣擔任總統\n所以我們還是要因應嘛對不對不管是誰擔任總統過去的八年前其實並沒有這麼危急也沒有兵凶戰危我們現在要提的是27日美國眾議院外交委員會主席麥考爾議員其實他也曾經對外說明中國確實有一些紅線必須要小心不要跨越不然將導致一場災難性的戰爭他的說法我們可不可以請教局長\n在像這樣子因為我們是不為戰不避戰而且我們也不想給解放軍他有跨越紅線的藉口來破壞和平來導致戰爭那可不可以你用比較簡單的接地氣的方式告訴我們全體國人因為這是我們全體國人要去面對跟承擔的所有的戰爭風險而不是外國人今天我們都指望有很多國家可以來協助那個\n我們沒有辦法做判斷可是當第一線面對戰爭風險的是我們全體國人局長你用比較接地氣比較簡單的方法告訴我們所謂的紅線是什麼對我想上次在貴院大會這邊做專題報告的時候也曾經針對這問題比較簡單的就是說美國現在跟中國的高層的交往事實上在進行的是一種紅線外交也就是美國不斷在對中國畫紅線\n我們不管是國際社會美國或是我們在講的紅線主要的還是在維持臺海的現狀臺海安全的現狀那這個就是最主要的紅線\n維持台海現狀因為什麼樣的因素有可能改變?這個紅線是什麼?因為你要把具體講出來我們的目標是要維持台海現狀但是假如中共它是透過單邊的或武力式的斜過性的方式它單邊有可能用什麼樣的藉口嗎?\n對,他有可能用的是這種武力的方式或武力威脅的方式來脅迫我們那個我知道了,我說的是什麼原因啊?局長你知道我的問題吧?你應該知道所謂的紅線是什麼但我跟委員講一下啦你講不出來不是,中共的所謂的紅線是依照他來定義對,沒關係他的定義也沒關係因為主動權,剛剛局長也提到主動權在他如果以他的定義,他自己的認知到底什麼是紅線,你讓全體國人知道\n中共所謂的對台政策主要有三個路線基本的基調反突出頭反外力介入就是這樣所以就這個部分在這個紅線上面我們要怎麼樣去拿捏其實也是在我們整個過程尤其現在越來越緊張的情勢之下台海\n我們昨天剛通過了\n局長先回剛剛那個嗎沒有這個部分我們請國安單位持續掌握好不好那我再用一點點時間不好意思出席就很多委員其實有提到說像反滲透法剛剛局長也有在回答的時候有提到不要把什麼事情都扣上這麼大的紅帽子\n所有的交流今天我們過去為什麼沒有這樣的問題今天如果兩岸可以交流可以有更多的管道其實我們維持和平就有多一個希望不管是透過任何的管道不要把每一個人都先打入賣台\n如果嚴格說起來昨天通過的法案因為大家在擔心的是什麼洩密我們所有的委員中華民國的立法委員其實在整個機密的資料裡面其實他們都是可以看的當你們在做報告的時候只是用機密的形式來報告所以沒有這樣的問題包括你在做調查或者聽證的時候\n在法條裡面定得非常清楚不管是國安、外交、國防如果有屬於機密性質的它還是受到相關的規範所以不要把這個統統套在一起那個可以拿到哪裡拿到習近平的桌子上這是非常可笑的說法\n今天如果有洩密現在要追究的是到底誰把這個機密的資料到底真的有沒有洩漏出去這個要查今天如果我們通過了這個調查權到底有沒有包括我們很多的重要的國防裝備包括潛艦\n如果第一艘的資料已經洩漏出去了你後面的七艘還可以照嗎?所以要不要查?應該把它查清楚可是有沒有人把它洩漏給其他不應該知道的除了立法委員在我們的立法院聽到的或看到的相關資料以外有些人把更深入的資料給了不該給的人給了\n不該給的像這樣子的可能有利益的團體這個部分國安局也希望你們可以掌握這個部分不要把它套一個大帽子今天如果說你沒有能力去掌握然後什麼都跟這個反送滲透法大家去一趟那你就規定不可以去啊\n你如果說反滲透法要這樣用的話更恐怖還有社會法當初社會法之亂前幾年的時候政府辦了很多無辜的老百姓只要有攻擊到或者什麼用假訊息或者你有什麼攻擊政府的言論就馬上用社會法辦了那不是更恐怖臺灣是一個民主自由的國家我們不是口口聲聲這樣說嗎那你可以讓人民陷於這樣的恐懼之中嗎而且隨便就辦\n長場還是結果都沒有問題所以就這個部分時間的關係不好意思這部分國安局應該要有一個高度今天如果要我們外面已經充滿危險已經充滿動盪如果內部是由我們自己引發的這樣子的動亂而且還要刻意去把它歸咎給哪一個政黨或哪些人這樣子會造成更大的動亂\n一句話就是說反滲透的部分對於兩岸正常合法的交流我們都予以尊重沒有意見那可能我們會特別關注的是有任何違反到反滲透法相關的法律要件的部分而且要有具體證據我們就會啟動相關的那當然嘛所以你官員如果在\n謝謝馬委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.936 --> 00:01.738\n謝 謝 主 席 , 麻 煩 請 蔡 局 長\n\n00:12.738 --> 00:30.190\n因 為 今 天 有 非 常 多 的 委 員 也 非 常 關 切 就 是 說 在 我 們 這 一 次 在 總 統 就 職 以 後 中 共 的 一 個 軍 演 其 實 他 到 底 是 什 麼 樣 的 目 的 然 後 他 的 作 為 還 有 他 發 展 的 狀 況\n\n00:31.491 --> 00:50.768\n因 為 局 長 在 上 一 次 質 詢 的 時 候 大 概 5 月 1 號 吧 你 們 曾 經 提 到 說 5 2 0 之 後 從 6 月 到 1 1 月 是 中 國 例 行 的 軍 演 的 季 節 進 入 軍 演 熱 季 那 國 安 局 他 關 注 的 重 點 是 中 共 會 不 會 藉 口 進 行 一 些 軍 事 演 習 來 對 台 灣 施 壓 媒 體 報 導\n\n00:54.758 --> 01:19.827\n其 實 也 提 到 新 國 安 團 隊 曾 經 在 一 場 內 部 的 簡 報 當 中 指 出 總 統 就 職 前 後 的 中 共 軍 演 都 是 在 意 料 之 中 也 都 是 基 本 動 作 那 就 局 長 的 判 斷 這 一 次 在 5 2 0 之 後 的 三 天 就 展 開 的 這 樣 的 軍 演 這 是 它 的 例 行 性 的 基 本 動 作 呢 還 是 突 發 性 的 就 國 安 局 掌 握 的 狀 況 是 什 麼 樣\n\n01:21.868 --> 01:42.166\n當 時 在 立 法 院 說 明 的 時 候 我 們 就 稍 微 強 調 就 中 共 他 對 台 的 這 種 聯 合 戰 備 警 訊 已 經 常 態 化 了 那 這 個 部 分 從 1 月 1 3 號 到 5 2 0 他 可 能 會 不 斷 地 用 常 態 化 的 聯 合 戰 備 警 訊 來 對 我 們 施 壓 那 我 當 時 也 提 醒 了 因 為 從 6 月 到 1 0 月 甚 至 1 1 月 是 他 演 習 的 熱 季 所 以 下 個 階 段 5 月 這 個 有 沒 有 掌 握 到\n\n01:42.886 --> 01:55.608\n五 月 這 個 階 段 我 們 大 概 剛 也 提 到 從 一 月 十 三 到 五 二 零 我 們 大 概 都 有 推 演 各 種 可 能 的 狀 況 而 老 實 跟 我 們 報 告 在 中 共 宣 布 軍 演 期 間 事 實 上 他 的 船 艦 已 經 開 始 動 員 對 軍 演 那 個 我 們 知 道 因 為 他 六 月 就 有 常 態 性 的 一 些 軍 事 演 習 這 個 已 經 是 例 行 就 跟 我 們 漢 光 演 習 一 樣 可 是 我 要 問 的 是 五 月 二 十 三 號 的 這 一 場 這 個 我 們 事 實 上 有 沒 有 掌 握 到 因 為\n\n02:09.851 --> 02:29.643\n像 剛 剛 您 說 其 實 它 的 兵 力 沒 有 比 較 多 可 是 它 的 範 圍 是 比 較 大 然 後 它 這 一 次 是 用 四 個 軍 種 陸 海 空 軍 還 有 火 箭 軍 對 於 我 們 的 壓 縮 其 實 是 更 近 了 尤 其 它 這 一 次 軍 演 的 那 種 項 目 其 實 對 於 反 介 入 跟 區 域 戒 指\n\n02:33.886 --> 02:36.649\n其 實 是 比 較 明 顯 的 態 勢 那 我 想 要 請 教 的 是 就 5 2 0 以 後 這 個 三 天 我 們 有 沒 有 掌 握 ? 它 會 發 生 ? 你 們 已 經 知 道 了 嗎 ? 因 為 跟 委 員 說 明 的 是 事 實 上 大 概 在 5 月 的 1 8 號 左 右 它 的 船 艦 都 已 經 開 始 在 活 動 了\n\n02:52.728 --> 02:55.311\n那 這 種 活 動 的 態 勢 我 們 一 判 就 會 發 現 這 是 有 點 偽 異 常 的 而 且 慢 慢 的 往 台 海 地 區 的 周 邊 水 域 在 移 動 那 這 我 們 就 發 現 的 真 猴 了 那 這 樣 有 兩 個 問 題 因 為 我 們 在 5 月 1 8 號 已 經 發 現 它 的 軍 艦 其 實 已 經 在 活 動 可 是 其 實 我 們 現 在 每 天 都 有 基 建 在 活 動\n\n03:15.270 --> 03:36.824\n可 是 這 個 有 沒 有 產 生 變 化 ? 國 安 局 的 掌 握 就 局 長 您 剛 剛 的 說 法 是 已 經 有 掌 握 到 了 那 我 們 還 派 出 這 麼 多 的 在 5 2 0 的 時 候 我 們 還 派 出 了 3 7 架 的 那 個 軍 機 而 且 都 是 我 們 重 要 的 現 在 的 主 力 戰 機 不 管 是 F 1 6 我 們 的 I D F 還 有 我 們 現 在 的 高 校 機 還 有\n\n03:39.045 --> 03:42.508\n國 軍 在 展 演 的 飛 機 跟 相 關 的 戰 備 的 飛 機 他 是 有 做 任 務 的 分 工 的 而 且 每 天 的 載 空 機 都 有 一 定 的 數 量 在\n\n03:58.360 --> 04:17.358\n你 知 道 可 是 當 他 是 演 習 不 是 他 常 態 性 的 就 他 每 天 的 一 個 基 建 的 擾 台 的 部 分 那 我 們 就 已 經 有 掌 握 了 我 們 還 做 出 這 樣 的 一 個 選 擇 或 者 另 外 我 們 比 較 擔 心 的 就 是 解 放 軍 的 動 員 能 力 非 常 強\n\n04:18.479 --> 04:42.981\n因 為 他 在 5 2 0 之 後 , 平 常 他 在 6 月 以 後 嘛 他 為 什 麼 這 一 次 沒 有 掛 單 很 大 的 一 個 可 能 性 是 因 為 他 非 常 激 動 他 還 沒 有 來 得 及 去 做 一 個 公 告 因 為 你 如 果 正 常 的 要 實 彈 的 話 其 實 他 必 須 要 公 告 還 有 他 演 習 的 區 域 範 圍 所 以 這 一 次 兩 天 很 重 要 的 他 的 目 的 就 國 安 局 掌 握 就 局 長 您 的 看 法 為 什 麼 會 這 樣 做\n\n04:44.489 --> 05:12.728\n對 我 們 的 判 斷 我 跟 委 員 做 個 說 明 就 是 說 軍 事 上 他 當 然 是 在 對 我 們 進 行 恫 嚇 但 是 在 政 治 上 我 剛 剛 也 跟 王 定 偉 在 做 說 明 的 是 他 也 有 做 一 些 必 要 的 這 種 風 險 的 控 管 那 所 以 說 他 並 沒 有 宣 布 進 航 區 他 並 沒 有 發 射 實 彈 假 如 又 宣 布 進 航 區 又 發 射 實 彈 的 話 那 演 習 規 模 又 比 照 到 當 時 裴 若 曦 2 0 2 2 年 8 月 訪 台 的 話 他 所 造 成 國 際 社 會 的 關 注 程 度 會 非 常 非 常 的 高\n\n05:14.269 --> 05:17.893\n因 為 2 0 2 2 年 培 洛 西 議 長 訪 台 的 時 候 那 個 已 經 是 拉 很 長 的 時 間 而 且 他 們 也 做 了 預 告 所 以 他 可 以 去 有 時 間 公 告 我 們 現 在 比 較 擔 心 的 他 短 短 的 兩 天 之 內 他 已 經 迅 速 的 集 結 而 且 很 多 人 根 本 不 知 道 沒 有 掌 握 到 因 為 我 們\n\n05:32.887 --> 05:48.774\n本 來 給 我 們 的 資 訊 就 包 括 國 安 局 你 們 當 時 跟 立 法 院 說 明 的 部 分 其 實 也 都 是 到 6 月 以 後 他 們 常 態 的 演 訊 所 以 這 個 部 分 我 們 必 須 要 關 注 的 是 他 在 這 麼 短 的 時 間 可 以 這 樣 做 所 以 他 速 戰\n\n05:49.955 --> 05:51.635\n這 個 動 員 的 速 度 加 快 這 我 們 有 在 注 意\n\n06:15.481 --> 06:35.472\n所 以 他 為 什 麼 會 有 這 個 演 習 ? 局 長 你 掌 握 的 是 什 麼 樣 的 狀 況 ? 為 什 麼 會 有 這 個 ? 是 因 為 賴 總 統 的 演 說 嗎 ? 沒 有 , 因 為 演 說 的 部 分 , 我 剛 才 跟 媒 體 說 明 , 因 為 演 說 主 要 的 內 容 還 是 在 延 續 到 維 持 台 海 現 狀 的 相 關 政 策 的 路 線 跟 基 調\n\n06:36.272 --> 07:01.003\n那 有 一 些 對 岸 的 涉 台 系 統 釋 放 出 來 賴 總 統 提 到 中 華 民 國 跟 中 華 人 民 共 和 國 或 不 隸 屬 的 這 個 論 點 事 實 上 也 是 延 續 了 蔡 總 統 蔡 前 總 統 的 四 大 堅 持 的 第 二 大 堅 持 所 以 就 路 線 上 基 調 來 講 沒 關 係 各 自 的 解 讀 那 是 雙 方 面 的 我 現 在 要 說 的 是 可 是 就 這 一 次 解 放 軍 這 樣 子 的 一 個 軍 演 的 一 個 動 作 您 的 觀 察 還 有\n\n07:01.644 --> 07:12.504\n國 安 局 掌 握 的 目 的 到 底 是 什 麼 他 是 因 為 我 們 的 就 職 演 說 賴 總 統 的 就 職 演 說 是 有 觸 犯 到 什 麼 嗎 所 以 他 才 有 這 樣 子 的 一 個\n\n07:13.635 --> 07:16.477\n主 要 是 透 過 這 一 次 的 針 對 性 的 軍 演 來 對 內 做 宣 傳 對 外 做 宣 示 也 就 是 北 京 對 於 台 海 情 勢 他 有 絕 對 的 主 導 跟 掌 控 權 不 管 是 誰 在 台 灣 擔 任 總 統\n\n07:32.490 --> 08:00.664\n所 以 我 們 還 是 要 因 應 嘛 對 不 對 不 管 是 誰 擔 任 總 統 過 去 的 八 年 前 其 實 並 沒 有 這 麼 危 急 也 沒 有 兵 凶 戰 危 我 們 現 在 要 提 的 是 2 7 日 美 國 眾 議 院 外 交 委 員 會 主 席 麥 考 爾 議 員 其 實 他 也 曾 經 對 外 說 明 中 國 確 實 有 一 些 紅 線 必 須 要 小 心 不 要 跨 越 不 然 將 導 致 一 場 災 難 性 的 戰 爭 他 的 說 法 我 們 可 不 可 以 請 教 局 長\n\n08:01.664 --> 08:27.649\n在 像 這 樣 子 因 為 我 們 是 不 為 戰 不 避 戰 而 且 我 們 也 不 想 給 解 放 軍 他 有 跨 越 紅 線 的 藉 口 來 破 壞 和 平 來 導 致 戰 爭 那 可 不 可 以 你 用 比 較 簡 單 的 接 地 氣 的 方 式 告 訴 我 們 全 體 國 人 因 為 這 是 我 們 全 體 國 人 要 去 面 對 跟 承 擔 的 所 有 的 戰 爭 風 險 而 不 是 外 國 人 今 天 我 們 都 指 望 有 很 多 國 家 可 以 來 協 助 那 個\n\n08:28.749 --> 08:36.734\n我 們 沒 有 辦 法 做 判 斷 可 是 當 第 一 線 面 對 戰 爭 風 險 的 是 我 們 全 體 國 人 局 長 你 用 比 較 接 地 氣 比 較 簡 單 的 方 法 告 訴 我 們 所 謂 的 紅 線 是 什 麼 對 我 想 上 次 在 貴 院 大 會 這 邊 做 專 題 報 告 的 時 候 也 曾 經 針 對 這 問 題 比 較 簡 單 的 就 是 說 美 國 現 在 跟 中 國 的 高 層 的 交 往 事 實 上 在 進 行 的 是 一 種 紅 線 外 交 也 就 是 美 國 不 斷 在 對 中 國 畫 紅 線\n\n08:57.025 --> 09:01.947\n我 們 不 管 是 國 際 社 會 美 國 或 是 我 們 在 講 的 紅 線 主 要 的 還 是 在 維 持 臺 海 的 現 狀 臺 海 安 全 的 現 狀 那 這 個 就 是 最 主 要 的 紅 線\n\n09:23.941 --> 09:30.003\n維 持 台 海 現 狀 因 為 什 麼 樣 的 因 素 有 可 能 改 變 ? 這 個 紅 線 是 什 麼 ? 因 為 你 要 把 具 體 講 出 來 我 們 的 目 標 是 要 維 持 台 海 現 狀 但 是 假 如 中 共 它 是 透 過 單 邊 的 或 武 力 式 的 斜 過 性 的 方 式 它 單 邊 有 可 能 用 什 麼 樣 的 藉 口 嗎 ?\n\n09:40.047 --> 09:46.431\n對 , 他 有 可 能 用 的 是 這 種 武 力 的 方 式 或 武 力 威 脅 的 方 式 來 脅 迫 我 們 那 個 我 知 道 了 , 我 說 的 是 什 麼 原 因 啊 ? 局 長 你 知 道 我 的 問 題 吧 ? 你 應 該 知 道 所 謂 的 紅 線 是 什 麼 但 我 跟 委 員 講 一 下 啦 你 講 不 出 來 不 是 , 中 共 的 所 謂 的 紅 線 是 依 照 他 來 定 義 對 , 沒 關 係 他 的 定 義 也 沒 關 係 因 為 主 動 權 , 剛 剛 局 長 也 提 到 主 動 權 在 他 如 果 以 他 的 定 義 , 他 自 己 的 認 知 到 底 什 麼 是 紅 線 , 你 讓 全 體 國 人 知 道\n\n10:07.643 --> 10:16.610\n中 共 所 謂 的 對 台 政 策 主 要 有 三 個 路 線 基 本 的 基 調 反 突 出 頭 反 外 力 介 入 就 是 這 樣 所 以 就 這 個 部 分 在 這 個 紅 線 上 面 我 們 要 怎 麼 樣 去 拿 捏 其 實 也 是 在 我 們 整 個 過 程 尤 其 現 在 越 來 越 緊 張 的 情 勢 之 下 台 海\n\n10:27.199 --> 10:27.679\n我 們 昨 天 剛 通 過 了\n\n10:56.880 --> 11:21.773\n局 長 先 回 剛 剛 那 個 嗎 沒 有 這 個 部 分 我 們 請 國 安 單 位 持 續 掌 握 好 不 好 那 我 再 用 一 點 點 時 間 不 好 意 思 出 席 就 很 多 委 員 其 實 有 提 到 說 像 反 滲 透 法 剛 剛 局 長 也 有 在 回 答 的 時 候 有 提 到 不 要 把 什 麼 事 情 都 扣 上 這 麼 大 的 紅 帽 子\n\n11:22.921 --> 11:41.032\n所 有 的 交 流 今 天 我 們 過 去 為 什 麼 沒 有 這 樣 的 問 題 今 天 如 果 兩 岸 可 以 交 流 可 以 有 更 多 的 管 道 其 實 我 們 維 持 和 平 就 有 多 一 個 希 望 不 管 是 透 過 任 何 的 管 道 不 要 把 每 一 個 人 都 先 打 入 賣 台\n\n11:42.333 --> 12:06.124\n如 果 嚴 格 說 起 來 昨 天 通 過 的 法 案 因 為 大 家 在 擔 心 的 是 什 麼 洩 密 我 們 所 有 的 委 員 中 華 民 國 的 立 法 委 員 其 實 在 整 個 機 密 的 資 料 裡 面 其 實 他 們 都 是 可 以 看 的 當 你 們 在 做 報 告 的 時 候 只 是 用 機 密 的 形 式 來 報 告 所 以 沒 有 這 樣 的 問 題 包 括 你 在 做 調 查 或 者 聽 證 的 時 候\n\n12:07.685 --> 12:24.195\n在 法 條 裡 面 定 得 非 常 清 楚 不 管 是 國 安 、 外 交 、 國 防 如 果 有 屬 於 機 密 性 質 的 它 還 是 受 到 相 關 的 規 範 所 以 不 要 把 這 個 統 統 套 在 一 起 那 個 可 以 拿 到 哪 裡 拿 到 習 近 平 的 桌 子 上 這 是 非 常 可 笑 的 說 法\n\n12:24.995 --> 12:39.342\n今 天 如 果 有 洩 密 現 在 要 追 究 的 是 到 底 誰 把 這 個 機 密 的 資 料 到 底 真 的 有 沒 有 洩 漏 出 去 這 個 要 查 今 天 如 果 我 們 通 過 了 這 個 調 查 權 到 底 有 沒 有 包 括 我 們 很 多 的 重 要 的 國 防 裝 備 包 括 潛 艦\n\n12:41.443 --> 12:45.467\n如 果 第 一 艘 的 資 料 已 經 洩 漏 出 去 了 你 後 面 的 七 艘 還 可 以 照 嗎 ? 所 以 要 不 要 查 ? 應 該 把 它 查 清 楚 可 是 有 沒 有 人 把 它 洩 漏 給 其 他 不 應 該 知 道 的 除 了 立 法 委 員 在 我 們 的 立 法 院 聽 到 的 或 看 到 的 相 關 資 料 以 外 有 些 人 把 更 深 入 的 資 料 給 了 不 該 給 的 人 給 了\n\n13:02.332 --> 13:20.671\n不 該 給 的 像 這 樣 子 的 可 能 有 利 益 的 團 體 這 個 部 分 國 安 局 也 希 望 你 們 可 以 掌 握 這 個 部 分 不 要 把 它 套 一 個 大 帽 子 今 天 如 果 說 你 沒 有 能 力 去 掌 握 然 後 什 麼 都 跟 這 個 反 送 滲 透 法 大 家 去 一 趟 那 你 就 規 定 不 可 以 去 啊\n\n13:21.963 --> 13:49.213\n你 如 果 說 反 滲 透 法 要 這 樣 用 的 話 更 恐 怖 還 有 社 會 法 當 初 社 會 法 之 亂 前 幾 年 的 時 候 政 府 辦 了 很 多 無 辜 的 老 百 姓 只 要 有 攻 擊 到 或 者 什 麼 用 假 訊 息 或 者 你 有 什 麼 攻 擊 政 府 的 言 論 就 馬 上 用 社 會 法 辦 了 那 不 是 更 恐 怖 臺 灣 是 一 個 民 主 自 由 的 國 家 我 們 不 是 口 口 聲 聲 這 樣 說 嗎 那 你 可 以 讓 人 民 陷 於 這 樣 的 恐 懼 之 中 嗎 而 且 隨 便 就 辦\n\n13:51.013 --> 14:06.297\n長 場 還 是 結 果 都 沒 有 問 題 所 以 就 這 個 部 分 時 間 的 關 係 不 好 意 思 這 部 分 國 安 局 應 該 要 有 一 個 高 度 今 天 如 果 要 我 們 外 面 已 經 充 滿 危 險 已 經 充 滿 動 盪 如 果 內 部 是 由 我 們 自 己 引 發 的 這 樣 子 的 動 亂 而 且 還 要 刻 意 去 把 它 歸 咎 給 哪 一 個 政 黨 或 哪 些 人 這 樣 子 會 造 成 更 大 的 動 亂\n\n14:18.360 --> 14:35.278\n一 句 話 就 是 說 反 滲 透 的 部 分 對 於 兩 岸 正 常 合 法 的 交 流 我 們 都 予 以 尊 重 沒 有 意 見 那 可 能 我 們 會 特 別 關 注 的 是 有 任 何 違 反 到 反 滲 透 法 相 關 的 法 律 要 件 的 部 分 而 且 要 有 具 體 證 據 我 們 就 會 啟 動 相 關 的 那 當 然 嘛 所 以 你 官 員 如 果 在\n\n14:36.319 --> 14:36.339\n謝 謝 馬 委 員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.936,"end":1.738,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩請蔡局長"},{"start":12.738,"end":30.19,"text":"因為今天有非常多的委員也非常關切就是說在我們這一次在總統就職以後中共的一個軍演其實他到底是什麼樣的目的然後他的作為還有他發展的狀況"},{"start":31.491,"end":50.768,"text":"因為局長在上一次質詢的時候大概5月1號吧你們曾經提到說520之後從6月到11月是中國例行的軍演的季節進入軍演熱季那國安局他關注的重點是中共會不會藉口進行一些軍事演習來對台灣施壓媒體報導"},{"start":54.758,"end":79.827,"text":"其實也提到新國安團隊曾經在一場內部的簡報當中指出總統就職前後的中共軍演都是在意料之中也都是基本動作那就局長的判斷這一次在520之後的三天就展開的這樣的軍演這是它的例行性的基本動作呢還是突發性的就國安局掌握的狀況是什麼樣"},{"start":81.868,"end":102.166,"text":"當時在立法院說明的時候我們就稍微強調就中共他對台的這種聯合戰備警訊已經常態化了那這個部分從1月13號到520他可能會不斷地用常態化的聯合戰備警訊來對我們施壓那我當時也提醒了因為從6月到10月甚至11月是他演習的熱季所以下個階段5月這個有沒有掌握到"},{"start":102.886,"end":115.608,"text":"五月這個階段我們大概剛也提到從一月十三到五二零我們大概都有推演各種可能的狀況而老實跟我們報告在中共宣布軍演期間事實上他的船艦已經開始動員對軍演那個我們知道因為他六月就有常態性的一些軍事演習這個已經是例行就跟我們漢光演習一樣可是我要問的是五月二十三號的這一場這個我們事實上有沒有掌握到因為"},{"start":129.851,"end":149.643,"text":"像剛剛您說其實它的兵力沒有比較多可是它的範圍是比較大然後它這一次是用四個軍種陸海空軍還有火箭軍對於我們的壓縮其實是更近了尤其它這一次軍演的那種項目其實對於反介入跟區域戒指"},{"start":153.886,"end":156.649,"text":"其實是比較明顯的態勢那我想要請教的是就520以後這個三天我們有沒有掌握?它會發生?你們已經知道了嗎?因為跟委員說明的是事實上大概在5月的18號左右它的船艦都已經開始在活動了"},{"start":172.728,"end":175.311,"text":"那這種活動的態勢我們一判就會發現這是有點偽異常的而且慢慢的往台海地區的周邊水域在移動那這我們就發現的真猴了那這樣有兩個問題因為我們在5月18號已經發現它的軍艦其實已經在活動可是其實我們現在每天都有基建在活動"},{"start":195.27,"end":216.824,"text":"可是這個有沒有產生變化?國安局的掌握就局長您剛剛的說法是已經有掌握到了那我們還派出這麼多的在520的時候我們還派出了37架的那個軍機而且都是我們重要的現在的主力戰機不管是F16我們的IDF還有我們現在的高校機還有"},{"start":219.045,"end":222.508,"text":"國軍在展演的飛機跟相關的戰備的飛機他是有做任務的分工的而且每天的載空機都有一定的數量在"},{"start":238.36,"end":257.358,"text":"你知道可是當他是演習不是他常態性的就他每天的一個基建的擾台的部分那我們就已經有掌握了我們還做出這樣的一個選擇或者另外我們比較擔心的就是解放軍的動員能力非常強"},{"start":258.479,"end":282.981,"text":"因為他在520之後,平常他在6月以後嘛他為什麼這一次沒有掛單很大的一個可能性是因為他非常激動他還沒有來得及去做一個公告因為你如果正常的要實彈的話其實他必須要公告還有他演習的區域範圍所以這一次兩天很重要的他的目的就國安局掌握就局長您的看法為什麼會這樣做"},{"start":284.489,"end":312.728,"text":"對我們的判斷我跟委員做個說明就是說軍事上他當然是在對我們進行恫嚇但是在政治上我剛剛也跟王定偉在做說明的是他也有做一些必要的這種風險的控管那所以說他並沒有宣布進航區他並沒有發射實彈假如又宣布進航區又發射實彈的話那演習規模又比照到當時裴若曦2022年8月訪台的話他所造成國際社會的關注程度會非常非常的高"},{"start":314.269,"end":317.893,"text":"因為2022年培洛西議長訪台的時候那個已經是拉很長的時間而且他們也做了預告所以他可以去有時間公告我們現在比較擔心的他短短的兩天之內他已經迅速的集結而且很多人根本不知道沒有掌握到因為我們"},{"start":332.887,"end":348.774,"text":"本來給我們的資訊就包括國安局你們當時跟立法院說明的部分其實也都是到6月以後他們常態的演訊所以這個部分我們必須要關注的是他在這麼短的時間可以這樣做所以他速戰"},{"start":349.955,"end":351.635,"text":"這個動員的速度加快這我們有在注意"},{"start":375.481,"end":395.472,"text":"所以他為什麼會有這個演習?局長你掌握的是什麼樣的狀況?為什麼會有這個?是因為賴總統的演說嗎?沒有,因為演說的部分,我剛才跟媒體說明,因為演說主要的內容還是在延續到維持台海現狀的相關政策的路線跟基調"},{"start":396.272,"end":421.003,"text":"那有一些對岸的涉台系統釋放出來賴總統提到中華民國跟中華人民共和國或不隸屬的這個論點事實上也是延續了蔡總統蔡前總統的四大堅持的第二大堅持所以就路線上基調來講沒關係各自的解讀那是雙方面的我現在要說的是可是就這一次解放軍這樣子的一個軍演的一個動作您的觀察還有"},{"start":421.644,"end":432.504,"text":"國安局掌握的目的到底是什麼他是因為我們的就職演說賴總統的就職演說是有觸犯到什麼嗎所以他才有這樣子的一個"},{"start":433.635,"end":436.477,"text":"主要是透過這一次的針對性的軍演來對內做宣傳對外做宣示也就是北京對於台海情勢他有絕對的主導跟掌控權不管是誰在台灣擔任總統"},{"start":452.49,"end":480.664,"text":"所以我們還是要因應嘛對不對不管是誰擔任總統過去的八年前其實並沒有這麼危急也沒有兵凶戰危我們現在要提的是27日美國眾議院外交委員會主席麥考爾議員其實他也曾經對外說明中國確實有一些紅線必須要小心不要跨越不然將導致一場災難性的戰爭他的說法我們可不可以請教局長"},{"start":481.664,"end":507.649,"text":"在像這樣子因為我們是不為戰不避戰而且我們也不想給解放軍他有跨越紅線的藉口來破壞和平來導致戰爭那可不可以你用比較簡單的接地氣的方式告訴我們全體國人因為這是我們全體國人要去面對跟承擔的所有的戰爭風險而不是外國人今天我們都指望有很多國家可以來協助那個"},{"start":508.749,"end":516.734,"text":"我們沒有辦法做判斷可是當第一線面對戰爭風險的是我們全體國人局長你用比較接地氣比較簡單的方法告訴我們所謂的紅線是什麼對我想上次在貴院大會這邊做專題報告的時候也曾經針對這問題比較簡單的就是說美國現在跟中國的高層的交往事實上在進行的是一種紅線外交也就是美國不斷在對中國畫紅線"},{"start":537.025,"end":541.947,"text":"我們不管是國際社會美國或是我們在講的紅線主要的還是在維持臺海的現狀臺海安全的現狀那這個就是最主要的紅線"},{"start":563.941,"end":570.003,"text":"維持台海現狀因為什麼樣的因素有可能改變?這個紅線是什麼?因為你要把具體講出來我們的目標是要維持台海現狀但是假如中共它是透過單邊的或武力式的斜過性的方式它單邊有可能用什麼樣的藉口嗎?"},{"start":580.047,"end":586.431,"text":"對,他有可能用的是這種武力的方式或武力威脅的方式來脅迫我們那個我知道了,我說的是什麼原因啊?局長你知道我的問題吧?你應該知道所謂的紅線是什麼但我跟委員講一下啦你講不出來不是,中共的所謂的紅線是依照他來定義對,沒關係他的定義也沒關係因為主動權,剛剛局長也提到主動權在他如果以他的定義,他自己的認知到底什麼是紅線,你讓全體國人知道"},{"start":607.643,"end":616.61,"text":"中共所謂的對台政策主要有三個路線基本的基調反突出頭反外力介入就是這樣所以就這個部分在這個紅線上面我們要怎麼樣去拿捏其實也是在我們整個過程尤其現在越來越緊張的情勢之下台海"},{"start":627.199,"end":627.679,"text":"我們昨天剛通過了"},{"start":656.88,"end":681.773,"text":"局長先回剛剛那個嗎沒有這個部分我們請國安單位持續掌握好不好那我再用一點點時間不好意思出席就很多委員其實有提到說像反滲透法剛剛局長也有在回答的時候有提到不要把什麼事情都扣上這麼大的紅帽子"},{"start":682.921,"end":701.032,"text":"所有的交流今天我們過去為什麼沒有這樣的問題今天如果兩岸可以交流可以有更多的管道其實我們維持和平就有多一個希望不管是透過任何的管道不要把每一個人都先打入賣台"},{"start":702.333,"end":726.124,"text":"如果嚴格說起來昨天通過的法案因為大家在擔心的是什麼洩密我們所有的委員中華民國的立法委員其實在整個機密的資料裡面其實他們都是可以看的當你們在做報告的時候只是用機密的形式來報告所以沒有這樣的問題包括你在做調查或者聽證的時候"},{"start":727.685,"end":744.195,"text":"在法條裡面定得非常清楚不管是國安、外交、國防如果有屬於機密性質的它還是受到相關的規範所以不要把這個統統套在一起那個可以拿到哪裡拿到習近平的桌子上這是非常可笑的說法"},{"start":744.995,"end":759.342,"text":"今天如果有洩密現在要追究的是到底誰把這個機密的資料到底真的有沒有洩漏出去這個要查今天如果我們通過了這個調查權到底有沒有包括我們很多的重要的國防裝備包括潛艦"},{"start":761.443,"end":765.467,"text":"如果第一艘的資料已經洩漏出去了你後面的七艘還可以照嗎?所以要不要查?應該把它查清楚可是有沒有人把它洩漏給其他不應該知道的除了立法委員在我們的立法院聽到的或看到的相關資料以外有些人把更深入的資料給了不該給的人給了"},{"start":782.332,"end":800.671,"text":"不該給的像這樣子的可能有利益的團體這個部分國安局也希望你們可以掌握這個部分不要把它套一個大帽子今天如果說你沒有能力去掌握然後什麼都跟這個反送滲透法大家去一趟那你就規定不可以去啊"},{"start":801.963,"end":829.213,"text":"你如果說反滲透法要這樣用的話更恐怖還有社會法當初社會法之亂前幾年的時候政府辦了很多無辜的老百姓只要有攻擊到或者什麼用假訊息或者你有什麼攻擊政府的言論就馬上用社會法辦了那不是更恐怖臺灣是一個民主自由的國家我們不是口口聲聲這樣說嗎那你可以讓人民陷於這樣的恐懼之中嗎而且隨便就辦"},{"start":831.013,"end":846.297,"text":"長場還是結果都沒有問題所以就這個部分時間的關係不好意思這部分國安局應該要有一個高度今天如果要我們外面已經充滿危險已經充滿動盪如果內部是由我們自己引發的這樣子的動亂而且還要刻意去把它歸咎給哪一個政黨或哪些人這樣子會造成更大的動亂"},{"start":858.36,"end":875.278,"text":"一句話就是說反滲透的部分對於兩岸正常合法的交流我們都予以尊重沒有意見那可能我們會特別關注的是有任何違反到反滲透法相關的法律要件的部分而且要有具體證據我們就會啟動相關的那當然嘛所以你官員如果在"},{"start":876.319,"end":876.339,"text":"謝謝馬委員"}]}}}}