{"id":153243,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153243","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e13310ebd43ea06de118edb3ca66b34e87331a3ee6acdf2d5e9879fa06f7c1a6a5e135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:13:44 - 11:26:53","影片長度":"00:13:09","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「強化社會安全網─暫行安置與監護處分制度及執行機構場域安全之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":789,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":27,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-27"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T11:26:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T11:13:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":624,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時13分）謝謝主席，有請部長，也請秘書長一起好嗎？"],["主席：請部長、秘書長上臺。"],["吳委員思瑤：我先就教今天比較hot issue，大家都在follow的問題，王義川今天成了我們司法及法制委員會或是其他委員會共同討論的焦點人物。我想問一下部長，現在坊間常常使用手機來精算，也就是大數據的演算，能夠將大數據的方式用在商業上，可以針對不同活動的人流來進行分析，這是現在已經慣常在使用的一個big data，您知道嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我沒有那麼清楚。"],["吳委員思瑤：你們要瞭解。當然，王義川在節目上所說的事情，他的資訊從哪裡來，我無從得知，我個人也認為他的發言可能也有需要再斟酌的地方。但是我想請問，如果手機定位的內容是去識別化的，去識別化後再來進行各種分析、商業使用或是其他學術研究使用的話，去識別化的資料有涉及個資嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：所謂個人資料一定是指自然人嘛……"],["吳委員思瑤：是。"],["鄭部長銘謙：自然人的個資，手機當然是屬於個人資料的一個範圍，它去識別化，我想這個是不是可以屬於個資法的合理使用，這是一個合理使用的問題。"],["吳委員思瑤：是。你們的答復要再精確一點，否則跟其他委員詢答的過程不夠嚴謹可能就被剪成抖音，就被用來以訛傳訛，說法務部長認為這樣就是涉及個資。剛剛就在今天的內政委員會，內政部部長劉世芳的詢答，他說現在在臺北縣市的警局，或是內政部也有一些人口戶政在使用的相關資料，只要是去識別化，並沒有侵害個人資料保護的問題，這是內政部部長劉世芳所說的。我再給你一次機會。"],["鄭部長銘謙：的確個資法有保障個人資料，因為不是使用個人資料就是違法……"],["吳委員思瑤：是。"],["鄭部長銘謙：它是在保障，只是說有些禁止違法使用的部分，當然有一些罰則，但是它最主要還是要促進個人資料的合理使用，同時也要兼顧隱私權的保障。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我們可以讓真理越辯越明。當然王義川也多次地清楚澄清跟說明，並非單一政黨有此能力而且使用這個系統，來針對現在大家無限擴大的這個言論，我想當事人已經做出清楚的澄清跟說明。剛剛我們的吳宗憲召委說他個人要去告發王義川，我也尊重，但是如果要告發的話，可以一併連侯友宜也一起告發，一併連盧秀燕也一起告發，因為這些地方政府也都使用這個big data去從事相關的、必要的、合理的使用，這是我的看法。","第二個，我也看到在野黨的黃國昌委員今天，在昨天立法院職權行使法等國會擴權的法案剛通過，還不到10小時，這個法律還沒有正式被頒布，被總統公布，居然黃國昌也說要針對王義川，鎖定他成為第一個要叫來國會問話、問訊的人。我想這就是先射箭再畫靶，這就是一個政治的意圖在前頭嘛，所謂的國會的聽證權、調查權，包括傅崐萁總召昨天說的，一完成立法，他就喜孜孜的、得意洋洋的對媒體說，我們要成立在野的國會特偵組。天啊！整肅異己的時代又來了，這個法律剛剛通過還不到幾小時。我也可以在這裡大膽的預測，王義川是第一個會被調來國會問訊的人，下一個可能是李正皓，第三個可能是于北辰，接下來黃世聰以及劉寶傑，5位可能都有機會。您知道我為什麼點名這5位嗎？因為這5位是常常在電視上評論中國時事跟經濟的名嘴，或是政治評論家，就在中國5月15號國台辦已經公布的懲戒名單裡頭。所以這樣的修法，這樣一個裡應外合的國會特偵組，國會擴權讓立法院可以成為一權分立、一權獨大。","剛剛召委說我們成了一權國家，其實這個一權國家，獨大的是立法院。昨天通過的這些國會擴權的惡法，就會形成臺灣只剩下一個立法權，它可以凌駕行政權，它可以凌駕監察權，可以凌駕司法權。所以，我要再次說，請大家要自制，一個法律還沒有上路，連三讀的文字都「離離落落」，還有一堆文字的缺漏，扯出來的包都還不知道怎麼來收拾，居然就說要鎖定王義川，要叫來成為國會第一個被問話、被問訊的人，這就是在野黨遂行政治肅殺的政治目的，不是嗎？不演了，完全不演了。","我是覺得很遺憾，司法院秘書長也在這裡，在這個法律二、三讀通過之後，監察院很快就公布了一個聲明的新聞稿，監察院認為立法院的擴權嚴重傷害了監察權，違反憲法規定的院際之間、憲法機關之間的權力分立原則。其實，同樣的，我們在座的兩位、在台上的兩位，司法權也是被剝奪了一部分，國會、立委都急切地想要成為法官及檢察官。既然監察院有這樣的一個statement，我在這裡也不為難秘書長，原本我是想秘書長也應當有司法院的立場、說法才對，但我想你在這裡講的每一句話可能都會被無限擴大，畢竟未來釋憲的憲法法庭也是需要更公正、超然的客觀立場。","我要再次藉由我的質詢時間與國人同胞分享我的觀點，也就是說，先上車後補票、先開刀再麻醉，就是現在的狀況。在野黨先修法，讓自己在國會擴了權，取代了監察權、取代了司法權，然後再說下一步要廢考監、要修憲。民進黨早就在這個場域、司法及法制委員會，我講了N次、我講了N次，如果要修憲就修憲，不能夠用修法來凌駕修憲，在野黨現在是整個顛倒，先修法讓國會擴權，然後回過來說我們現在要推動廢監察院的修憲案，這就是先上車再補票啊！這就是醫生先幫你開了刀再來麻醉啊！秘書長，我的說法正確嗎？就憲政分立的原則，可以先擴大立法的權限再說要廢掉監察院嗎？這是監察院昨天的聲明中清楚闡述的立場，秘書長，你應當可以針對這個問題簡單的回答吧？該修憲是不是就修憲，絕對不能先修法之後再回頭去修憲，先上車後補票？這是很簡單的問題，藐視國會罪還未經過總統公告，你不用害怕，就回答，據實以答，沒有關係！"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為多元的社會，我們尊重委員的說法。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以尊重立法委員胡說八道、尊重立法委員胡亂修法，這就是藐視國會罪最嚴重的地方。翁曉玲委員說的上對下的關係，我要告訴大家，它應驗了！翁曉玲說的上對下的關係在這次國會擴權的修法中完全應驗了，因為民選總統可以被叫來立法院即問即答，將國情報告改為常態化，這就是太上立院。上對下，民選總統是擁有最高民意基礎的總統，立法院可以這樣對待他！第二個上對下就是利用藐視國會罪這樣荒誕制度的設計，讓你們行政官員每一個人都噤聲，每一個人都成為乖乖牌，每一個人不敢言所當言、為所當為，真的成為質詢就是上對下，因為有藐視國會罪，你們都不敢講話了啦！大家都變成啞巴了啦！第三個上對下就是最殘暴的，一個太上國會可以把人民動輒叫來立法院，要你提供資料就提供資料，要你來問話就問話，把人民的人權踩在腳底，這就是上對下。翁曉玲說的都靈驗了、都應驗了。","剛剛吳宗憲召委說，如果王義川說的手機定位是侵害個人資料保護法，那麼昨天剛修過的國會擴權法案可以要求人民繳出一切你要的資料，而且要來這裡應訊、問話，連找律師都要主席同意，個人資料保護法耶！吳忠憲，你敢說啊！你們這種違憲亂政的修法，有把個人資料保護法、有把人權放在眼裡嗎？如果你們認為王義川的言論如此不可，當然我也認為王義川講的話不夠精準，但是，如果要用同樣的標準，一個去識別化的資料都要被你們無限上綱成為侵害人權、違反個資，那麼即將上路的國會擴權法案，把人民叫來立法院、必須提供一切的資料，這樣沒有侵害人權嗎？","實在很抱歉！今天我其實準備了很多主題，只好下一次再針對司法精神醫療體系就教於兩位，但是我們站在這裡，處於這個憲政時刻，我們都要非常嚴肅的去面對。我也認為不要因為有了藐視國會罪，大家就不敢講話，這是反民主。你們有你們的法學專業，絕對在我吳思瑤的百倍千倍以上，但是針對基本憲政精神該有的捍衛、對於司法獨立的捍衛、對於人權的捍衛，我們都要繼續言所當言、為所當為，否則，一個不敢講話的國會殿堂，這是什麼民主？只有立委可以在這裡無的放矢，官員不能表述，我認為這是民主倒退的一刻。","我在這裡還是要期勉大家，民主進步黨會針對藐視國會罪提出釋憲案，我們也很有把握，希望憲法法庭可以做出一個合憲的判決。憲法會保護每一個良善的中華民國國民，憲法會保護每一個持善念走正道的臺灣人，對於這些擴權違憲的法案，我們就拭目以待，好不好？我們繼續加油！謝謝主席、謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳思瑤委員。關於王義川的部分，我還是很中立的概念、我還是很中立啦！"],["吳委員思瑤：你一起告發侯友宜啦！去告發啦！"],["主席：我還是很中立的，希望藉由這個方式讓民眾釋疑。剛剛我講得很清楚，可能是因為吳思瑤委員還沒進來。我認為在不同場域的分析比較與人流的控管，其實這個在層次上、在個資上有不同的層次，但我從頭到尾也沒說希望用與國會有關的調查權或什麼聽證權等等，我都沒有提這個，反而是很持平的表示，既然已經造成社會上的懷疑，那就由一個公正第三方的檢方去調查。而且我剛剛也說了，我也希望查出來後發現原來是一個誤會，這是對的，而且能夠讓國人釋疑。我覺得我將我的立場說得很清楚，也不想讓這件事情變成是政治的攻擊。就像我剛剛提到的，光是裝了GPS就讓海巡署的人員被法院判刑，因為藉由GPS就能知道你的定位。如果國家或電信公司可以透過手機定位把我的一些相關資料賣給第三方或透露給第三方，而且是沒有法律依據的時候，我覺得我今天是要了解這件事，而且是希望由公正第三方的檢方出來調查，而不是由我們自己去調查，甚至主觀的認為是怎麼樣，我想我還是很持平的看待每一件事情。","當然我也非常期望檢方調查後發現其實沒有問題，王先生的每一個作為都是合法的，讓我們國人都能夠安心，心裡也能得到安慰，自己的資料並沒有被拿去濫用，我也很希望得到的是這樣的結論，所以今天我是很持平的看待這件事情。如果有人想要把我的話再次扭曲，其實我來這裡之後已經很習慣了，在這裡所說的話都會被扭曲，如果還是有人希望把我的話拿去扭曲，我也就尊重每個人的發言。但我要在這裡再次說明，今天之所以要由檢方出來調查，就是希望由一個公正的第三方來告訴我，因為我也是使用手機的其中一個人，對我而言，這個也是令我擔心的事情、也是全國二千多萬人擔心的事情。由檢方出來，我們很信任檢方，如果檢方能夠釋疑，告訴我們並沒有問題，或是我們發現哪個地方的法制有漏洞，我們就把那個地方再補起來，其實這樣做才會對國家有幫助，而不是在那邊口水戰，你來我去的這樣吵。","我想這個與各縣市政府處理公共活動時的人流控管在程度上有非常大的不同，剛剛我已經說過了，不同場域的分析其實有一點問題，所以我才會提出剛才那個想法。當然我也祝福王先生，在檢方了解之後發現其實是沒有問題的，我也很希望王先生最後是這樣的結論。在此我並沒有預設任何立場，我只是希望讓國人釋疑，這是政治人物以及政府的責任，謝謝各位。","今天所有發言的委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料以及書面答復，請將相關資料盡速送交個別委員及本委員會。另有委員翁曉玲所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-27","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","羅智強","謝龍介","陳俊宇","林思銘","吳思瑤","翁曉玲"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「強化社會安全網─ 暫行安\n置與監護處分制度及執行機構場域安全之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135301_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"153243","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153243","tool":"pyannote","id":"153243-pyannote"},"job_id":"H9MuabrCkIRyTtYZ","queued_at":"2024-05-30 11:09:44","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-05-30 11:11:46","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153243"},{"time":"2024-05-30 11:11:47","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e13310ebd43ea06de118edb3ca66b34e87331beba37a180c9b1cda2d01b8cba2b01b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-05-30 11:12:12","msg":"converting mp4 to wav"},{"time":"2024-05-30 11:12:14","msg":"running pyannote"},{"time":"2024-05-30 11:12:27","msg":"status: 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整肅一擊的時代又來了這個法律剛通過還不到幾小時我也可以在這裡大膽的預測啊王逸川是第一個會被調來國會問訊的人下一個可能是李政浩第三個可能是于北辰接下來黃世聰以及劉寶潔五位可能都有機會您知道我為什麼點名這五位嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 264.215, \"end\": 264.415, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 264.415, \"end\": 265.056, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 265.056, \"end\": 265.516, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"肅\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 265.516, \"end\": 265.856, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"擊\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 265.856, \"end\": 266.176, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"代\", \"start\": 266.176, \"end\": 266.416, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"又\", \"start\": 266.416, \"end\": 266.997, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 266.997, \"end\": 267.757, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 267.757, \"end\": 267.897, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"律\", \"start\": 267.897, \"end\": 268.258, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, 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是 大 數 據 的 演 算 能 夠 用 大 數 據 的 方 式 那 用 在 商 業 上 然 後 可 以 針 對 不 同 的 活 動 的 人 流 商 業 來 進 行 分 析 這 是 現 在 已 經 慣 常 在 使 用 的 一 個 b i g d a t a 您 知 道 嗎\n\n4\n00:00:52,614 --> 00:01:16,168\n這 個 我 沒 有 那 麼 清 楚 你 們 要 了 解 那 因 為 當 然 我 認 為 王 逸 川 在 節 目 上 所 說 的 事 情 資 訊 從 哪 裡 來 我 無 從 得 知 那 我 個 人 也 認 為 他 的 發 言 可 能 也 有 需 要 再 斟 酌 的 地 方 但 是 我 想 請 問 如 果 手 機 的 定 位 的 內 容 是 去 識 別 化 的\n\n5\n00:01:17,168 --> 00:01:27,699\n去 識 別 化 再 來 進 行 各 種 的 分 析 商 業 使 用 或 是 其 他 學 術 研 討 使 用 研 究 使 用 的 話 那 去 識 別 化 有 涉 及 各 資 嗎 ?\n\n6\n00:01:29,888 --> 00:01:47,138\n個 人 資 料 當 然 一 定 是 自 然 人 嘛 , 自 然 人 的 一 個 , 那 手 機 當 然 是 屬 於 個 人 資 料 的 一 個 範 圍 啦 , 那 去 四 倍 化 我 想 這 個 應 該 是 , 是 不 是 可 以 屬 於 那 個 個 資 法 的 一 個 合 理 使 用 的 一 個 問 題 。\n\n7\n00:01:49,759 --> 00:01:57,267\n你 們 好 好 要 再 精 確 一 點 否 則 在 其 他 的 詢 答 的 過 程 不 夠 嚴 謹 就 被 簡 稱 抖 音 就 被 去 以 訛 傳 訛 法 務 部 長 就 認 為 這 樣 是 涉 及 各 自 剛 剛 就 在 今 天 的 內 政 委 員 會 內 政 部 部 長 劉 世 芳 她 的 詢 答\n\n8\n00:02:10,642 --> 00:02:25,136\n現 在 在 臺 北 縣 市 的 警 局 或 是 內 政 部 也 有 一 些 人 口 護 證 在 使 用 的 相 關 資 料 只 要 是 去 識 別 化 並 沒 有 侵 害 個 人 資 料 保 護 的 問 題 這 是 內 政 部 部 長 劉 世 芳 所 說 我 再 給 您 一 次 機 會\n\n9\n00:02:26,337 --> 00:02:48,988\n那 個 的 確 是 各 自 法 他 是 有 保 障 個 人 資 料 因 為 個 人 資 料 不 是 使 用 就 是 違 法 他 是 在 保 障 那 只 是 說 一 個 違 法 使 用 的 一 個 有 些 禁 止 的 使 用 的 部 分 那 當 然 有 一 些 的 罰 則 但 是 他 最 主 要 還 是 要 促 進 個 人 資 料 的 一 個 合 理 使 用 那 也 要 兼 顧 隱 私 權 的 一 個 保 障\n\n10\n00:02:50,461 --> 00:02:54,723\n我 們 可 以 讓 真 理 越 辯 越 明 當 然 王 逸 川 他 也 多 次 的 清 楚 澄 清 跟 說 明 並 非 由 單 一 政 黨 有 這 個 能 力 而 且 去 進 行 了 使 用 這 個 系 統 來 針 對 現 在 大 家 無 限 擴 大 的 這 個 言 論 我 想 當 事 人 他 已 經 做 出 清 楚 的 這 個 澄 清 跟 說 明 那 剛 剛 我 們 的 吳 宗 憲 教 委 說 他 個 人 要 去 告 發 王 逸 川 我 也 尊 重\n\n11\n00:03:18,337 --> 00:03:30,106\n但 是 如 果 要 告 發 的 話 可 以 一 併 連 侯 友 宜 也 一 起 告 發 一 併 連 盧 秀 燕 也 可 以 一 起 告 發 因 為 這 些 地 方 政 府 也 都 使 用 這 個 B i g D a t a 去 從 事 相 關 的 必 要 的 合 理 的 使 用 這 是 我 的 看 法\n\n12\n00:03:35,330 --> 00:03:58,774\n第 2 個 呢 我 也 看 到 在 野 黨 的 這 個 黃 國 昌 委 員 今 天 在 昨 天 國 會 立 法 院 職 權 行 使 法 國 會 擴 選 的 法 案 剛 通 過 還 不 到 1 0 小 時 這 個 法 律 還 沒 有 正 式 被 頒 布 被 總 統 公 布 居 然 黃 國 昌 也 說 要 針 對 王 逸 川 就 鎖 定 成 為 第 1 個 要 叫 來 國 會 問 話 、 問 訊 的 人 我 想 這 就 是 先 射 箭 再 劃 靶 嘛\n\n13\n00:04:04,575 --> 00:04:21,770\n這 就 是 一 個 政 治 的 意 圖 在 前 頭 嘛 所 謂 的 國 會 的 聽 證 權 、 調 查 權 這 種 包 括 副 官 級 總 召 昨 天 說 的 一 完 成 立 法 他 就 喜 滋 滋 的 、 得 意 洋 洋 的 對 媒 體 說 我 們 要 成 立 在 野 的 國 會 特 徵 組\n\n14\n00:04:24,215 --> 00:04:50,372\n天 啊 整 肅 一 擊 的 時 代 又 來 了 這 個 法 律 剛 通 過 還 不 到 幾 小 時 我 也 可 以 在 這 裡 大 膽 的 預 測 啊 王 逸 川 是 第 一 個 會 被 調 來 國 會 問 訊 的 人 下 一 個 可 能 是 李 政 浩 第 三 個 可 能 是 于 北 辰 接 下 來 黃 世 聰 以 及 劉 寶 潔 五 位 可 能 都 有 機 會 您 知 道 我 為 什 麼 點 名 這 五 位 嗎\n\n15\n00:04:51,516 --> 00:05:03,828\n因 為 這 五 位 啊 電 視 上 常 常 在 評 論 中 國 時 事 跟 經 濟 的 名 嘴 啊 或 是 政 治 評 論 家 就 在 中 國 5 月 1 5 號 國 台 辦 已 經 公 布 的 懲 戒 名 單 裡 頭 所 以 呢 這 樣 的 修 法 這 樣 的 一 個 裡 應 外 合\n\n16\n00:05:10,821 --> 00:05:39,052\n國 會 特 徵 組 國 會 擴 權 讓 立 法 院 可 以 成 為 一 權 分 立 一 權 獨 大 剛 剛 我 們 召 委 說 我 們 成 了 一 權 國 家 其 實 這 個 一 權 國 家 獨 大 的 是 立 法 院 昨 天 通 過 的 這 些 國 會 擴 權 的 二 法 就 會 形 成 台 灣 只 剩 下 一 個 立 法 權 他 可 以 凌 駕 行 政 權 他 可 以 凌 駕 監 察 權 可 以 凌 駕 司 法 權\n\n17\n00:05:41,365 --> 00:06:10,504\n所 以 呢 我 要 再 次 說 請 大 家 要 自 制 啊 一 個 法 律 剛 上 路 都 對 不 起 它 還 沒 有 上 路 連 三 讀 的 文 字 哩 哩 啦 啦 還 有 一 堆 文 字 的 缺 漏 扯 出 來 的 包 都 還 不 知 道 怎 麼 來 收 拾 居 然 就 說 要 鎖 定 王 逸 川 就 要 叫 來 成 為 國 會 第 一 個 被 問 話 被 問 訊 的 人 這 就 是 在 野 黨 遂 行 了 政 治 肅 殺 的 政 治 目 的 不 是 嗎\n\n18\n00:06:11,687 --> 00:06:14,260\n不 演 了 ! 完 全 不 演 了 !\n\n19\n00:06:15,265 --> 00:06:44,252\n所 以 呢 我 是 覺 得 很 遺 憾 我 請 司 法 院 秘 書 長 在 這 裡 因 為 這 個 法 律 通 過 二 三 讀 之 後 監 察 院 很 快 的 就 公 布 了 一 個 新 聞 的 聲 明 監 察 院 認 為 立 法 院 的 擴 權 嚴 重 的 傷 害 了 監 察 權 那 違 反 了 憲 法 的 院 紀 之 間 憲 法 機 關 之 間 的 權 力 分 立 的 原 則 那 其 實 同 樣 的 我 們 在 座 的 兩 位 在 台 上 的 兩 位 司 法 權\n\n20\n00:06:44,872 --> 00:06:45,012\n司 法 院 的 立 場 ．\n\n21\n00:07:04,835 --> 00:07:07,317\n先 上 車 後 補 票 先 開 刀 再 麻 醉 就 是 現 在 的 狀 況\n\n22\n00:07:32,898 --> 00:07:42,811\n再 也 黨 先 修 法 讓 自 己 國 會 擴 了 權 取 代 了 監 察 權 取 代 了 司 法 權 然 後 呢 再 來 說 我 們 下 一 步 來 廢 考 監 來 修 憲\n\n23\n00:07:45,516 --> 00:07:57,722\n這 民 進 黨 早 就 在 這 一 個 場 域 司 法 法 制 委 員 會 我 已 經 講 了 N 次 我 講 了 N 次 如 果 要 修 憲 就 修 憲 不 能 夠 用 修 法 來 凌 駕 修 憲 在 野 黨 現 在 是 先 修 法 讓 國 會 擴 權 然 後 回 過 來 說 我 們 現 在 來 推 動 廢 監 察 院 的 修 憲 案\n\n24\n00:08:11,844 --> 00:08:33,177\n這 就 是 先 上 車 再 後 補 再 補 票 啊 這 就 是 醫 生 要 開 刀 先 給 你 開 了 刀 再 來 麻 醉 啊 秘 書 長 我 的 說 法 正 確 嗎 就 憲 政 分 立 的 原 則 有 先 擴 大 了 立 法 的 權 限 然 後 再 來 說 我 要 來 廢 掉 監 察 院 嗎 這 是 監 察 院 昨 天 的 聲 明 裡 頭 清 楚 的 闡 述 的 立 場 秘 書 第 5\n\n25\n00:08:37,250 --> 00:09:02,248\n那 這 個 問 題 林 董 簡 單 可 以 回 答 吧 該 修 憲 是 不 是 就 修 憲 絕 對 不 能 先 修 法 之 後 再 回 頭 來 去 修 憲 先 上 車 後 補 票 很 簡 單 的 問 題 藐 視 國 會 罪 還 沒 有 總 統 公 告 你 不 用 害 怕 就 回 答 據 實 以 答 沒 有 關 係 針 對 多 元 的 社 會 我 們 尊 重 委 員 的 說 法\n\n26\n00:09:03,502 --> 00:09:16,930\n所 以 尊 重 立 法 委 員 胡 說 八 道 尊 重 立 法 委 員 胡 亂 修 法 這 就 是 藐 視 國 會 最 最 嚴 重 的 地 方 翁 曉 琳 委 員 說 的 上 對 下 的 關 係 我 要 跟 大 家 說\n\n27\n00:09:18,342 --> 00:09:42,307\n他 應 驗 了 翁 小 玲 說 的 上 對 下 的 關 係 在 這 一 次 的 國 會 擴 權 的 修 法 完 全 應 驗 了 因 為 民 選 總 統 可 以 被 叫 來 立 法 院 即 問 即 答 國 情 報 告 改 為 常 態 化 這 就 是 太 上 立 院 上 對 下 對 民 選 總 統 擁 有 最 高 民 意 基 礎 的 總 統 立 法 院 可 以 這 樣 對 待 他\n\n28\n00:09:43,584 --> 00:09:53,148\n第 二 個 上 對 下 就 是 利 用 藐 視 國 會 罪 這 樣 子 的 荒 誕 制 度 的 設 計 讓 你 們 行 政 官 員 每 一 個 人 都 噤 聲 每 一 個 人 成 為 乖 乖 牌 每 一 個 人 不 敢 言 所 當 言 為 所 當 為 然 後 真 的 成 為 質 詢 就 是 上 對 下 因 為 有 藐 視 國 會 罪 你 都 不 敢 說 話 啦\n\n29\n00:10:05,768 --> 00:10:21,784\n第 三 個 上 對 下 就 是 最 殘 暴 的 一 個 太 上 國 會 可 以 把 人 民 動 輒 的 叫 來 立 法 院 要 你 提 供 資 料 就 提 供 資 料 要 你 來 問 話 就 問 話 把 人 民 的 人 權 踩 在 腳 底 這 就 是 上 對 下\n\n30\n00:10:22,685 --> 00:10:41,621\n翁 曉 琳 說 的 都 靈 驗 了 都 應 驗 了 剛 剛 吳 宗 憲 、 張 偉 說 如 果 王 逸 川 說 的 手 機 定 位 是 侵 害 個 人 資 料 保 護 法 那 麼 昨 天 剛 修 過 的 國 會 擴 權 的 法 案 可 以 要 求 人 民 繳 出 一 切 你 要 的 資 料 你 要 來 這 裡 應 訊 問 話 連 找 律 師 都 要 主 席 同 意\n\n31\n00:10:49,958 --> 00:11:11,574\n個 人 資 料 保 護 法 吳 宗 憲 你 敢 說 啊 你 們 這 種 違 憲 亂 證 的 修 法 有 把 個 人 資 料 保 護 法 有 把 人 權 放 在 眼 裡 嗎 如 果 你 們 對 於 王 逸 川 的 言 論 如 此 認 為 不 可 我 當 然 也 認 為 王 逸 川 的 講 話 不 夠 精 準\n\n32\n00:11:12,492 --> 00:11:33,152\n但 是 如 果 要 用 同 樣 的 標 準 一 個 去 識 別 化 的 資 料 都 要 被 你 們 無 限 上 綱 稱 為 侵 害 人 權 違 反 個 資 那 麼 即 將 上 路 的 國 會 擴 權 法 案 把 人 民 叫 來 立 法 院 必 須 提 供 一 切 的 資 料\n\n33\n00:11:34,711 --> 00:11:48,212\n這 沒 有 侵 害 人 權 嗎 ? 實 在 很 抱 歉 我 今 天 的 主 題 其 實 準 備 很 多 那 只 好 下 一 次 再 針 對 我 們 的 司 法 精 神 醫 療 體 系 就 教 於 兩 位 但 是 我 們 站 在 這 裡 這 個 現 正 時 刻\n\n34\n00:11:50,695 --> 00:11:50,715\n吳 思 瑤 議 員\n\n35\n00:12:06,178 --> 00:12:31,823\n但 是 針 對 基 本 該 有 的 憲 政 精 神 的 捍 衛 對 於 我 們 司 法 獨 立 的 捍 衛 對 於 人 權 的 捍 衛 我 們 都 要 繼 續 言 所 當 言 、 為 所 當 為 否 則 一 個 不 敢 講 話 的 國 會 殿 堂 這 是 什 麼 民 主 只 有 立 委 可 以 在 這 裡 無 地 放 矢 官 員 不 能 表 述\n\n36\n00:12:33,430 --> 00:12:48,428\n我 認 為 這 是 民 主 倒 退 的 一 刻 我 在 這 裡 還 是 期 勉 大 家 藐 視 國 會 罪 民 主 進 步 黨 會 提 出 釋 憲 案 我 們 也 很 有 把 握 希 望 憲 法 法 庭 可 以 做 出 一 個 合 憲 的 一 個 判 決\n\n37\n00:12:50,151 --> 00:12:50,231\n謝 謝 吳 思 瑤 委 員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t669\t請部長、秘書長上台\n15897\t27147\t我想先就教依循著剛剛今天大家都比較hard issue在follow的問題這個王逸川今天成了我們司法法制委員會或是其他委員會共同討論的焦點人物我想問一下部長\n31691\t50547\t現在坊間常常在使用這個手機來精算也是大數據的演算能夠用大數據的方式那用在商業上然後可以針對不同的活動的人流商業來進行分析這是現在已經慣常在使用的一個big data您知道嗎\n52614\t76168\t這個我沒有那麼清楚你們要了解那因為當然我認為王逸川在節目上所說的事情資訊從哪裡來我無從得知那我個人也認為他的發言可能也有需要再斟酌的地方但是我想請問如果手機的定位的內容是去識別化的\n77168\t87699\t去識別化再來進行各種的分析商業使用或是其他學術研討使用研究使用的話那去識別化有涉及各資嗎?\n89888\t107138\t個人資料當然一定是自然人嘛,自然人的一個,那手機當然是屬於個人資料的一個範圍啦,那去四倍化我想這個應該是,是不是可以屬於那個個資法的一個合理使用的一個問題。\n109759\t117267\t你們好好要再精確一點否則在其他的詢答的過程不夠嚴謹就被簡稱抖音就被去以訛傳訛法務部長就認為這樣是涉及各自剛剛就在今天的內政委員會內政部部長劉世芳她的詢答\n130642\t145136\t現在在臺北縣市的警局或是內政部也有一些人口護證在使用的相關資料只要是去識別化並沒有侵害個人資料保護的問題這是內政部部長劉世芳所說我再給您一次機會\n146337\t168988\t那個的確是各自法他是有保障個人資料因為個人資料不是使用就是違法他是在保障那只是說一個違法使用的一個有些禁止的使用的部分那當然有一些的罰則但是他最主要還是要促進個人資料的一個合理使用那也要兼顧隱私權的一個保障\n170461\t174723\t我們可以讓真理越辯越明當然王逸川他也多次的清楚澄清跟說明並非由單一政黨有這個能力而且去進行了使用這個系統來針對現在大家無限擴大的這個言論我想當事人他已經做出清楚的這個澄清跟說明那剛剛我們的吳宗憲教委說他個人要去告發王逸川我也尊重\n198337\t210106\t但是如果要告發的話可以一併連侯友宜也一起告發一併連盧秀燕也可以一起告發因為這些地方政府也都使用這個Big Data去從事相關的必要的合理的使用這是我的看法\n215330\t238774\t第2個呢我也看到在野黨的這個黃國昌委員今天在昨天國會立法院職權行使法國會擴選的法案剛通過還不到10小時這個法律還沒有正式被頒布被總統公布居然黃國昌也說要針對王逸川就鎖定成為第1個要叫來國會問話、問訊的人我想這就是先射箭再劃靶嘛\n244575\t261770\t這就是一個政治的意圖在前頭嘛所謂的國會的聽證權、調查權這種包括副官級總召昨天說的一完成立法他就喜滋滋的、得意洋洋的對媒體說我們要成立在野的國會特徵組\n264215\t290372\t天啊 整肅一擊的時代又來了這個法律剛通過還不到幾小時我也可以在這裡大膽的預測啊王逸川是第一個會被調來國會問訊的人下一個可能是李政浩第三個可能是于北辰接下來黃世聰以及劉寶潔五位可能都有機會您知道我為什麼點名這五位嗎\n291516\t303828\t因為這五位啊電視上常常在評論中國時事跟經濟的名嘴啊或是政治評論家就在中國5月15號國台辦已經公布的懲戒名單裡頭所以呢這樣的修法這樣的一個裡應外合\n310821\t339052\t國會特徵組國會擴權讓立法院可以成為一權分立一權獨大剛剛我們召委說我們成了一權國家其實這個一權國家獨大的是立法院昨天通過的這些國會擴權的二法就會形成台灣只剩下一個立法權他可以凌駕行政權他可以凌駕監察權可以凌駕司法權\n341365\t370504\t所以呢我要再次說請大家要自制啊一個法律剛上路都對不起它還沒有上路連三讀的文字哩哩啦啦還有一堆文字的缺漏扯出來的包都還不知道怎麼來收拾居然就說要鎖定王逸川就要叫來成為國會第一個被問話被問訊的人這就是在野黨遂行了政治肅殺的政治目的不是嗎\n371687\t374260\t不演了!完全不演了!\n375265\t404252\t所以呢我是覺得很遺憾我請司法院秘書長在這裡因為這個法律通過二三讀之後監察院很快的就公布了一個新聞的聲明監察院認為立法院的擴權嚴重的傷害了監察權那違反了憲法的院紀之間憲法機關之間的權力分立的原則那其實同樣的我們在座的兩位在台上的兩位司法權\n404872\t405012\t司法院的立場．\n424835\t427317\t先上車後補票先開刀再麻醉就是現在的狀況\n452898\t462811\t再也黨先修法讓自己國會擴了權取代了監察權取代了司法權然後呢再來說我們下一步來廢考監來修憲\n465516\t477722\t這民進黨早就在這一個場域司法法制委員會我已經講了N次我講了N次如果要修憲就修憲不能夠用修法來凌駕修憲在野黨現在是先修法讓國會擴權然後回過來說我們現在來推動廢監察院的修憲案\n491844\t513177\t這就是先上車再後補再補票啊這就是醫生要開刀先給你開了刀再來麻醉啊秘書長我的說法正確嗎就憲政分立的原則有先擴大了立法的權限然後再來說我要來廢掉監察院嗎這是監察院昨天的聲明裡頭清楚的闡述的立場秘書第5\n517250\t542248\t那這個問題 林董簡單可以回答吧該修憲是不是就修憲 絕對不能先修法之後再回頭來去修憲 先上車後補票 很簡單的問題藐視國會罪還沒有總統公告 你不用害怕 就回答 據實以答沒有關係針對多元的社會 我們尊重委員的說法\n543502\t556930\t所以尊重立法委員胡說八道尊重立法委員胡亂修法這就是藐視國會最最嚴重的地方翁曉琳委員說的上對下的關係我要跟大家說\n558342\t582307\t他應驗了翁小玲說的上對下的關係在這一次的國會擴權的修法完全應驗了因為民選總統可以被叫來立法院即問即答國情報告改為常態化這就是太上立院上對下對民選總統擁有最高民意基礎的總統立法院可以這樣對待他\n583584\t593148\t第二個上對下就是利用藐視國會罪這樣子的荒誕制度的設計讓你們行政官員每一個人都噤聲每一個人成為乖乖牌每一個人不敢言所當言為所當為然後真的成為質詢就是上對下因為有藐視國會罪你都不敢說話啦\n605768\t621784\t第三個上對下就是最殘暴的一個太上國會可以把人民動輒的叫來立法院要你提供資料就提供資料要你來問話就問話把人民的人權踩在腳底這就是上對下\n622685\t641621\t翁曉琳說的都靈驗了都應驗了剛剛吳宗憲、張偉說如果王逸川說的手機定位是侵害個人資料保護法那麼昨天剛修過的國會擴權的法案可以要求人民繳出一切你要的資料你要來這裡應訊問話連找律師都要主席同意\n649958\t671574\t個人資料保護法吳宗憲你敢說啊你們這種違憲亂證的修法有把個人資料保護法有把人權放在眼裡嗎如果你們對於王逸川的言論如此認為不可我當然也認為王逸川的講話不夠精準\n672492\t693152\t但是如果要用同樣的標準一個去識別化的資料都要被你們無限上綱稱為侵害人權違反個資那麼即將上路的國會擴權法案把人民叫來立法院必須提供一切的資料\n694711\t708212\t這沒有侵害人權嗎?實在很抱歉我今天的主題其實準備很多那只好下一次再針對我們的司法精神醫療體系就教於兩位但是我們站在這裡這個現正時刻\n710695\t710715\t吳思瑤議員\n726178\t751823\t但是針對基本該有的憲政精神的捍衛對於我們司法獨立的捍衛對於人權的捍衛我們都要繼續言所當言、為所當為否則一個不敢講話的國會殿堂這是什麼民主只有立委可以在這裡無地放矢官員不能表述\n753430\t768428\t我認為這是民主倒退的一刻我在這裡還是期勉大家藐視國會罪民主進步黨會提出釋憲案我們也很有把握希望憲法法庭可以做出一個合憲的一個判決\n770151\t770231\t謝謝吳思瑤委員\n","txt":"請部長、秘書長上台\n我想先就教依循著剛剛今天大家都比較hard issue在follow的問題這個王逸川今天成了我們司法法制委員會或是其他委員會共同討論的焦點人物我想問一下部長\n現在坊間常常在使用這個手機來精算也是大數據的演算能夠用大數據的方式那用在商業上然後可以針對不同的活動的人流商業來進行分析這是現在已經慣常在使用的一個big data您知道嗎\n這個我沒有那麼清楚你們要了解那因為當然我認為王逸川在節目上所說的事情資訊從哪裡來我無從得知那我個人也認為他的發言可能也有需要再斟酌的地方但是我想請問如果手機的定位的內容是去識別化的\n去識別化再來進行各種的分析商業使用或是其他學術研討使用研究使用的話那去識別化有涉及各資嗎?\n個人資料當然一定是自然人嘛,自然人的一個,那手機當然是屬於個人資料的一個範圍啦,那去四倍化我想這個應該是,是不是可以屬於那個個資法的一個合理使用的一個問題。\n你們好好要再精確一點否則在其他的詢答的過程不夠嚴謹就被簡稱抖音就被去以訛傳訛法務部長就認為這樣是涉及各自剛剛就在今天的內政委員會內政部部長劉世芳她的詢答\n現在在臺北縣市的警局或是內政部也有一些人口護證在使用的相關資料只要是去識別化並沒有侵害個人資料保護的問題這是內政部部長劉世芳所說我再給您一次機會\n那個的確是各自法他是有保障個人資料因為個人資料不是使用就是違法他是在保障那只是說一個違法使用的一個有些禁止的使用的部分那當然有一些的罰則但是他最主要還是要促進個人資料的一個合理使用那也要兼顧隱私權的一個保障\n我們可以讓真理越辯越明當然王逸川他也多次的清楚澄清跟說明並非由單一政黨有這個能力而且去進行了使用這個系統來針對現在大家無限擴大的這個言論我想當事人他已經做出清楚的這個澄清跟說明那剛剛我們的吳宗憲教委說他個人要去告發王逸川我也尊重\n但是如果要告發的話可以一併連侯友宜也一起告發一併連盧秀燕也可以一起告發因為這些地方政府也都使用這個Big Data去從事相關的必要的合理的使用這是我的看法\n第2個呢我也看到在野黨的這個黃國昌委員今天在昨天國會立法院職權行使法國會擴選的法案剛通過還不到10小時這個法律還沒有正式被頒布被總統公布居然黃國昌也說要針對王逸川就鎖定成為第1個要叫來國會問話、問訊的人我想這就是先射箭再劃靶嘛\n這就是一個政治的意圖在前頭嘛所謂的國會的聽證權、調查權這種包括副官級總召昨天說的一完成立法他就喜滋滋的、得意洋洋的對媒體說我們要成立在野的國會特徵組\n天啊 整肅一擊的時代又來了這個法律剛通過還不到幾小時我也可以在這裡大膽的預測啊王逸川是第一個會被調來國會問訊的人下一個可能是李政浩第三個可能是于北辰接下來黃世聰以及劉寶潔五位可能都有機會您知道我為什麼點名這五位嗎\n因為這五位啊電視上常常在評論中國時事跟經濟的名嘴啊或是政治評論家就在中國5月15號國台辦已經公布的懲戒名單裡頭所以呢這樣的修法這樣的一個裡應外合\n國會特徵組國會擴權讓立法院可以成為一權分立一權獨大剛剛我們召委說我們成了一權國家其實這個一權國家獨大的是立法院昨天通過的這些國會擴權的二法就會形成台灣只剩下一個立法權他可以凌駕行政權他可以凌駕監察權可以凌駕司法權\n所以呢我要再次說請大家要自制啊一個法律剛上路都對不起它還沒有上路連三讀的文字哩哩啦啦還有一堆文字的缺漏扯出來的包都還不知道怎麼來收拾居然就說要鎖定王逸川就要叫來成為國會第一個被問話被問訊的人這就是在野黨遂行了政治肅殺的政治目的不是嗎\n不演了!完全不演了!\n所以呢我是覺得很遺憾我請司法院秘書長在這裡因為這個法律通過二三讀之後監察院很快的就公布了一個新聞的聲明監察院認為立法院的擴權嚴重的傷害了監察權那違反了憲法的院紀之間憲法機關之間的權力分立的原則那其實同樣的我們在座的兩位在台上的兩位司法權\n司法院的立場．\n先上車後補票先開刀再麻醉就是現在的狀況\n再也黨先修法讓自己國會擴了權取代了監察權取代了司法權然後呢再來說我們下一步來廢考監來修憲\n這民進黨早就在這一個場域司法法制委員會我已經講了N次我講了N次如果要修憲就修憲不能夠用修法來凌駕修憲在野黨現在是先修法讓國會擴權然後回過來說我們現在來推動廢監察院的修憲案\n這就是先上車再後補再補票啊這就是醫生要開刀先給你開了刀再來麻醉啊秘書長我的說法正確嗎就憲政分立的原則有先擴大了立法的權限然後再來說我要來廢掉監察院嗎這是監察院昨天的聲明裡頭清楚的闡述的立場秘書第5\n那這個問題 林董簡單可以回答吧該修憲是不是就修憲 絕對不能先修法之後再回頭來去修憲 先上車後補票 很簡單的問題藐視國會罪還沒有總統公告 你不用害怕 就回答 據實以答沒有關係針對多元的社會 我們尊重委員的說法\n所以尊重立法委員胡說八道尊重立法委員胡亂修法這就是藐視國會最最嚴重的地方翁曉琳委員說的上對下的關係我要跟大家說\n他應驗了翁小玲說的上對下的關係在這一次的國會擴權的修法完全應驗了因為民選總統可以被叫來立法院即問即答國情報告改為常態化這就是太上立院上對下對民選總統擁有最高民意基礎的總統立法院可以這樣對待他\n第二個上對下就是利用藐視國會罪這樣子的荒誕制度的設計讓你們行政官員每一個人都噤聲每一個人成為乖乖牌每一個人不敢言所當言為所當為然後真的成為質詢就是上對下因為有藐視國會罪你都不敢說話啦\n第三個上對下就是最殘暴的一個太上國會可以把人民動輒的叫來立法院要你提供資料就提供資料要你來問話就問話把人民的人權踩在腳底這就是上對下\n翁曉琳說的都靈驗了都應驗了剛剛吳宗憲、張偉說如果王逸川說的手機定位是侵害個人資料保護法那麼昨天剛修過的國會擴權的法案可以要求人民繳出一切你要的資料你要來這裡應訊問話連找律師都要主席同意\n個人資料保護法吳宗憲你敢說啊你們這種違憲亂證的修法有把個人資料保護法有把人權放在眼裡嗎如果你們對於王逸川的言論如此認為不可我當然也認為王逸川的講話不夠精準\n但是如果要用同樣的標準一個去識別化的資料都要被你們無限上綱稱為侵害人權違反個資那麼即將上路的國會擴權法案把人民叫來立法院必須提供一切的資料\n這沒有侵害人權嗎?實在很抱歉我今天的主題其實準備很多那只好下一次再針對我們的司法精神醫療體系就教於兩位但是我們站在這裡這個現正時刻\n吳思瑤議員\n但是針對基本該有的憲政精神的捍衛對於我們司法獨立的捍衛對於人權的捍衛我們都要繼續言所當言、為所當為否則一個不敢講話的國會殿堂這是什麼民主只有立委可以在這裡無地放矢官員不能表述\n我認為這是民主倒退的一刻我在這裡還是期勉大家藐視國會罪民主進步黨會提出釋憲案我們也很有把握希望憲法法庭可以做出一個合憲的一個判決\n謝謝吳思瑤委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:00.669\n請 部 長 、 秘 書 長 上 台\n\n00:15.897 --> 00:27.147\n我 想 先 就 教 依 循 著 剛 剛 今 天 大 家 都 比 較 h a r d i s s u e 在 f o l l o w 的 問 題 這 個 王 逸 川 今 天 成 了 我 們 司 法 法 制 委 員 會 或 是 其 他 委 員 會 共 同 討 論 的 焦 點 人 物 我 想 問 一 下 部 長\n\n00:31.691 --> 00:50.547\n現 在 坊 間 常 常 在 使 用 這 個 手 機 來 精 算 也 是 大 數 據 的 演 算 能 夠 用 大 數 據 的 方 式 那 用 在 商 業 上 然 後 可 以 針 對 不 同 的 活 動 的 人 流 商 業 來 進 行 分 析 這 是 現 在 已 經 慣 常 在 使 用 的 一 個 b i g d a t a 您 知 道 嗎\n\n00:52.614 --> 01:16.168\n這 個 我 沒 有 那 麼 清 楚 你 們 要 了 解 那 因 為 當 然 我 認 為 王 逸 川 在 節 目 上 所 說 的 事 情 資 訊 從 哪 裡 來 我 無 從 得 知 那 我 個 人 也 認 為 他 的 發 言 可 能 也 有 需 要 再 斟 酌 的 地 方 但 是 我 想 請 問 如 果 手 機 的 定 位 的 內 容 是 去 識 別 化 的\n\n01:17.168 --> 01:27.699\n去 識 別 化 再 來 進 行 各 種 的 分 析 商 業 使 用 或 是 其 他 學 術 研 討 使 用 研 究 使 用 的 話 那 去 識 別 化 有 涉 及 各 資 嗎 ?\n\n01:29.888 --> 01:47.138\n個 人 資 料 當 然 一 定 是 自 然 人 嘛 , 自 然 人 的 一 個 , 那 手 機 當 然 是 屬 於 個 人 資 料 的 一 個 範 圍 啦 , 那 去 四 倍 化 我 想 這 個 應 該 是 , 是 不 是 可 以 屬 於 那 個 個 資 法 的 一 個 合 理 使 用 的 一 個 問 題 。\n\n01:49.759 --> 01:57.267\n你 們 好 好 要 再 精 確 一 點 否 則 在 其 他 的 詢 答 的 過 程 不 夠 嚴 謹 就 被 簡 稱 抖 音 就 被 去 以 訛 傳 訛 法 務 部 長 就 認 為 這 樣 是 涉 及 各 自 剛 剛 就 在 今 天 的 內 政 委 員 會 內 政 部 部 長 劉 世 芳 她 的 詢 答\n\n02:10.642 --> 02:25.136\n現 在 在 臺 北 縣 市 的 警 局 或 是 內 政 部 也 有 一 些 人 口 護 證 在 使 用 的 相 關 資 料 只 要 是 去 識 別 化 並 沒 有 侵 害 個 人 資 料 保 護 的 問 題 這 是 內 政 部 部 長 劉 世 芳 所 說 我 再 給 您 一 次 機 會\n\n02:26.337 --> 02:48.988\n那 個 的 確 是 各 自 法 他 是 有 保 障 個 人 資 料 因 為 個 人 資 料 不 是 使 用 就 是 違 法 他 是 在 保 障 那 只 是 說 一 個 違 法 使 用 的 一 個 有 些 禁 止 的 使 用 的 部 分 那 當 然 有 一 些 的 罰 則 但 是 他 最 主 要 還 是 要 促 進 個 人 資 料 的 一 個 合 理 使 用 那 也 要 兼 顧 隱 私 權 的 一 個 保 障\n\n02:50.461 --> 02:54.723\n我 們 可 以 讓 真 理 越 辯 越 明 當 然 王 逸 川 他 也 多 次 的 清 楚 澄 清 跟 說 明 並 非 由 單 一 政 黨 有 這 個 能 力 而 且 去 進 行 了 使 用 這 個 系 統 來 針 對 現 在 大 家 無 限 擴 大 的 這 個 言 論 我 想 當 事 人 他 已 經 做 出 清 楚 的 這 個 澄 清 跟 說 明 那 剛 剛 我 們 的 吳 宗 憲 教 委 說 他 個 人 要 去 告 發 王 逸 川 我 也 尊 重\n\n03:18.337 --> 03:30.106\n但 是 如 果 要 告 發 的 話 可 以 一 併 連 侯 友 宜 也 一 起 告 發 一 併 連 盧 秀 燕 也 可 以 一 起 告 發 因 為 這 些 地 方 政 府 也 都 使 用 這 個 B i g D a t a 去 從 事 相 關 的 必 要 的 合 理 的 使 用 這 是 我 的 看 法\n\n03:35.330 --> 03:58.774\n第 2 個 呢 我 也 看 到 在 野 黨 的 這 個 黃 國 昌 委 員 今 天 在 昨 天 國 會 立 法 院 職 權 行 使 法 國 會 擴 選 的 法 案 剛 通 過 還 不 到 1 0 小 時 這 個 法 律 還 沒 有 正 式 被 頒 布 被 總 統 公 布 居 然 黃 國 昌 也 說 要 針 對 王 逸 川 就 鎖 定 成 為 第 1 個 要 叫 來 國 會 問 話 、 問 訊 的 人 我 想 這 就 是 先 射 箭 再 劃 靶 嘛\n\n04:04.575 --> 04:21.770\n這 就 是 一 個 政 治 的 意 圖 在 前 頭 嘛 所 謂 的 國 會 的 聽 證 權 、 調 查 權 這 種 包 括 副 官 級 總 召 昨 天 說 的 一 完 成 立 法 他 就 喜 滋 滋 的 、 得 意 洋 洋 的 對 媒 體 說 我 們 要 成 立 在 野 的 國 會 特 徵 組\n\n04:24.215 --> 04:50.372\n天 啊 整 肅 一 擊 的 時 代 又 來 了 這 個 法 律 剛 通 過 還 不 到 幾 小 時 我 也 可 以 在 這 裡 大 膽 的 預 測 啊 王 逸 川 是 第 一 個 會 被 調 來 國 會 問 訊 的 人 下 一 個 可 能 是 李 政 浩 第 三 個 可 能 是 于 北 辰 接 下 來 黃 世 聰 以 及 劉 寶 潔 五 位 可 能 都 有 機 會 您 知 道 我 為 什 麼 點 名 這 五 位 嗎\n\n04:51.516 --> 05:03.828\n因 為 這 五 位 啊 電 視 上 常 常 在 評 論 中 國 時 事 跟 經 濟 的 名 嘴 啊 或 是 政 治 評 論 家 就 在 中 國 5 月 1 5 號 國 台 辦 已 經 公 布 的 懲 戒 名 單 裡 頭 所 以 呢 這 樣 的 修 法 這 樣 的 一 個 裡 應 外 合\n\n05:10.821 --> 05:39.052\n國 會 特 徵 組 國 會 擴 權 讓 立 法 院 可 以 成 為 一 權 分 立 一 權 獨 大 剛 剛 我 們 召 委 說 我 們 成 了 一 權 國 家 其 實 這 個 一 權 國 家 獨 大 的 是 立 法 院 昨 天 通 過 的 這 些 國 會 擴 權 的 二 法 就 會 形 成 台 灣 只 剩 下 一 個 立 法 權 他 可 以 凌 駕 行 政 權 他 可 以 凌 駕 監 察 權 可 以 凌 駕 司 法 權\n\n05:41.365 --> 06:10.504\n所 以 呢 我 要 再 次 說 請 大 家 要 自 制 啊 一 個 法 律 剛 上 路 都 對 不 起 它 還 沒 有 上 路 連 三 讀 的 文 字 哩 哩 啦 啦 還 有 一 堆 文 字 的 缺 漏 扯 出 來 的 包 都 還 不 知 道 怎 麼 來 收 拾 居 然 就 說 要 鎖 定 王 逸 川 就 要 叫 來 成 為 國 會 第 一 個 被 問 話 被 問 訊 的 人 這 就 是 在 野 黨 遂 行 了 政 治 肅 殺 的 政 治 目 的 不 是 嗎\n\n06:11.687 --> 06:14.260\n不 演 了 ! 完 全 不 演 了 !\n\n06:15.265 --> 06:44.252\n所 以 呢 我 是 覺 得 很 遺 憾 我 請 司 法 院 秘 書 長 在 這 裡 因 為 這 個 法 律 通 過 二 三 讀 之 後 監 察 院 很 快 的 就 公 布 了 一 個 新 聞 的 聲 明 監 察 院 認 為 立 法 院 的 擴 權 嚴 重 的 傷 害 了 監 察 權 那 違 反 了 憲 法 的 院 紀 之 間 憲 法 機 關 之 間 的 權 力 分 立 的 原 則 那 其 實 同 樣 的 我 們 在 座 的 兩 位 在 台 上 的 兩 位 司 法 權\n\n06:44.872 --> 06:45.012\n司 法 院 的 立 場 ．\n\n07:04.835 --> 07:07.317\n先 上 車 後 補 票 先 開 刀 再 麻 醉 就 是 現 在 的 狀 況\n\n07:32.898 --> 07:42.811\n再 也 黨 先 修 法 讓 自 己 國 會 擴 了 權 取 代 了 監 察 權 取 代 了 司 法 權 然 後 呢 再 來 說 我 們 下 一 步 來 廢 考 監 來 修 憲\n\n07:45.516 --> 07:57.722\n這 民 進 黨 早 就 在 這 一 個 場 域 司 法 法 制 委 員 會 我 已 經 講 了 N 次 我 講 了 N 次 如 果 要 修 憲 就 修 憲 不 能 夠 用 修 法 來 凌 駕 修 憲 在 野 黨 現 在 是 先 修 法 讓 國 會 擴 權 然 後 回 過 來 說 我 們 現 在 來 推 動 廢 監 察 院 的 修 憲 案\n\n08:11.844 --> 08:33.177\n這 就 是 先 上 車 再 後 補 再 補 票 啊 這 就 是 醫 生 要 開 刀 先 給 你 開 了 刀 再 來 麻 醉 啊 秘 書 長 我 的 說 法 正 確 嗎 就 憲 政 分 立 的 原 則 有 先 擴 大 了 立 法 的 權 限 然 後 再 來 說 我 要 來 廢 掉 監 察 院 嗎 這 是 監 察 院 昨 天 的 聲 明 裡 頭 清 楚 的 闡 述 的 立 場 秘 書 第 5\n\n08:37.250 --> 09:02.248\n那 這 個 問 題 林 董 簡 單 可 以 回 答 吧 該 修 憲 是 不 是 就 修 憲 絕 對 不 能 先 修 法 之 後 再 回 頭 來 去 修 憲 先 上 車 後 補 票 很 簡 單 的 問 題 藐 視 國 會 罪 還 沒 有 總 統 公 告 你 不 用 害 怕 就 回 答 據 實 以 答 沒 有 關 係 針 對 多 元 的 社 會 我 們 尊 重 委 員 的 說 法\n\n09:03.502 --> 09:16.930\n所 以 尊 重 立 法 委 員 胡 說 八 道 尊 重 立 法 委 員 胡 亂 修 法 這 就 是 藐 視 國 會 最 最 嚴 重 的 地 方 翁 曉 琳 委 員 說 的 上 對 下 的 關 係 我 要 跟 大 家 說\n\n09:18.342 --> 09:42.307\n他 應 驗 了 翁 小 玲 說 的 上 對 下 的 關 係 在 這 一 次 的 國 會 擴 權 的 修 法 完 全 應 驗 了 因 為 民 選 總 統 可 以 被 叫 來 立 法 院 即 問 即 答 國 情 報 告 改 為 常 態 化 這 就 是 太 上 立 院 上 對 下 對 民 選 總 統 擁 有 最 高 民 意 基 礎 的 總 統 立 法 院 可 以 這 樣 對 待 他\n\n09:43.584 --> 09:53.148\n第 二 個 上 對 下 就 是 利 用 藐 視 國 會 罪 這 樣 子 的 荒 誕 制 度 的 設 計 讓 你 們 行 政 官 員 每 一 個 人 都 噤 聲 每 一 個 人 成 為 乖 乖 牌 每 一 個 人 不 敢 言 所 當 言 為 所 當 為 然 後 真 的 成 為 質 詢 就 是 上 對 下 因 為 有 藐 視 國 會 罪 你 都 不 敢 說 話 啦\n\n10:05.768 --> 10:21.784\n第 三 個 上 對 下 就 是 最 殘 暴 的 一 個 太 上 國 會 可 以 把 人 民 動 輒 的 叫 來 立 法 院 要 你 提 供 資 料 就 提 供 資 料 要 你 來 問 話 就 問 話 把 人 民 的 人 權 踩 在 腳 底 這 就 是 上 對 下\n\n10:22.685 --> 10:41.621\n翁 曉 琳 說 的 都 靈 驗 了 都 應 驗 了 剛 剛 吳 宗 憲 、 張 偉 說 如 果 王 逸 川 說 的 手 機 定 位 是 侵 害 個 人 資 料 保 護 法 那 麼 昨 天 剛 修 過 的 國 會 擴 權 的 法 案 可 以 要 求 人 民 繳 出 一 切 你 要 的 資 料 你 要 來 這 裡 應 訊 問 話 連 找 律 師 都 要 主 席 同 意\n\n10:49.958 --> 11:11.574\n個 人 資 料 保 護 法 吳 宗 憲 你 敢 說 啊 你 們 這 種 違 憲 亂 證 的 修 法 有 把 個 人 資 料 保 護 法 有 把 人 權 放 在 眼 裡 嗎 如 果 你 們 對 於 王 逸 川 的 言 論 如 此 認 為 不 可 我 當 然 也 認 為 王 逸 川 的 講 話 不 夠 精 準\n\n11:12.492 --> 11:33.152\n但 是 如 果 要 用 同 樣 的 標 準 一 個 去 識 別 化 的 資 料 都 要 被 你 們 無 限 上 綱 稱 為 侵 害 人 權 違 反 個 資 那 麼 即 將 上 路 的 國 會 擴 權 法 案 把 人 民 叫 來 立 法 院 必 須 提 供 一 切 的 資 料\n\n11:34.711 --> 11:48.212\n這 沒 有 侵 害 人 權 嗎 ? 實 在 很 抱 歉 我 今 天 的 主 題 其 實 準 備 很 多 那 只 好 下 一 次 再 針 對 我 們 的 司 法 精 神 醫 療 體 系 就 教 於 兩 位 但 是 我 們 站 在 這 裡 這 個 現 正 時 刻\n\n11:50.695 --> 11:50.715\n吳 思 瑤 議 員\n\n12:06.178 --> 12:31.823\n但 是 針 對 基 本 該 有 的 憲 政 精 神 的 捍 衛 對 於 我 們 司 法 獨 立 的 捍 衛 對 於 人 權 的 捍 衛 我 們 都 要 繼 續 言 所 當 言 、 為 所 當 為 否 則 一 個 不 敢 講 話 的 國 會 殿 堂 這 是 什 麼 民 主 只 有 立 委 可 以 在 這 裡 無 地 放 矢 官 員 不 能 表 述\n\n12:33.430 --> 12:48.428\n我 認 為 這 是 民 主 倒 退 的 一 刻 我 在 這 裡 還 是 期 勉 大 家 藐 視 國 會 罪 民 主 進 步 黨 會 提 出 釋 憲 案 我 們 也 很 有 把 握 希 望 憲 法 法 庭 可 以 做 出 一 個 合 憲 的 一 個 判 決\n\n12:50.151 --> 12:50.231\n謝 謝 吳 思 瑤 委 員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":0.669,"text":"請部長、秘書長上台"},{"start":15.897,"end":27.147,"text":"我想先就教依循著剛剛今天大家都比較hard issue在follow的問題這個王逸川今天成了我們司法法制委員會或是其他委員會共同討論的焦點人物我想問一下部長"},{"start":31.691,"end":50.547,"text":"現在坊間常常在使用這個手機來精算也是大數據的演算能夠用大數據的方式那用在商業上然後可以針對不同的活動的人流商業來進行分析這是現在已經慣常在使用的一個big data您知道嗎"},{"start":52.614,"end":76.168,"text":"這個我沒有那麼清楚你們要了解那因為當然我認為王逸川在節目上所說的事情資訊從哪裡來我無從得知那我個人也認為他的發言可能也有需要再斟酌的地方但是我想請問如果手機的定位的內容是去識別化的"},{"start":77.168,"end":87.699,"text":"去識別化再來進行各種的分析商業使用或是其他學術研討使用研究使用的話那去識別化有涉及各資嗎?"},{"start":89.888,"end":107.138,"text":"個人資料當然一定是自然人嘛,自然人的一個,那手機當然是屬於個人資料的一個範圍啦,那去四倍化我想這個應該是,是不是可以屬於那個個資法的一個合理使用的一個問題。"},{"start":109.759,"end":117.267,"text":"你們好好要再精確一點否則在其他的詢答的過程不夠嚴謹就被簡稱抖音就被去以訛傳訛法務部長就認為這樣是涉及各自剛剛就在今天的內政委員會內政部部長劉世芳她的詢答"},{"start":130.642,"end":145.136,"text":"現在在臺北縣市的警局或是內政部也有一些人口護證在使用的相關資料只要是去識別化並沒有侵害個人資料保護的問題這是內政部部長劉世芳所說我再給您一次機會"},{"start":146.337,"end":168.988,"text":"那個的確是各自法他是有保障個人資料因為個人資料不是使用就是違法他是在保障那只是說一個違法使用的一個有些禁止的使用的部分那當然有一些的罰則但是他最主要還是要促進個人資料的一個合理使用那也要兼顧隱私權的一個保障"},{"start":170.461,"end":174.723,"text":"我們可以讓真理越辯越明當然王逸川他也多次的清楚澄清跟說明並非由單一政黨有這個能力而且去進行了使用這個系統來針對現在大家無限擴大的這個言論我想當事人他已經做出清楚的這個澄清跟說明那剛剛我們的吳宗憲教委說他個人要去告發王逸川我也尊重"},{"start":198.337,"end":210.106,"text":"但是如果要告發的話可以一併連侯友宜也一起告發一併連盧秀燕也可以一起告發因為這些地方政府也都使用這個Big Data去從事相關的必要的合理的使用這是我的看法"},{"start":215.33,"end":238.774,"text":"第2個呢我也看到在野黨的這個黃國昌委員今天在昨天國會立法院職權行使法國會擴選的法案剛通過還不到10小時這個法律還沒有正式被頒布被總統公布居然黃國昌也說要針對王逸川就鎖定成為第1個要叫來國會問話、問訊的人我想這就是先射箭再劃靶嘛"},{"start":244.575,"end":261.77,"text":"這就是一個政治的意圖在前頭嘛所謂的國會的聽證權、調查權這種包括副官級總召昨天說的一完成立法他就喜滋滋的、得意洋洋的對媒體說我們要成立在野的國會特徵組"},{"start":264.215,"end":290.372,"text":"天啊 整肅一擊的時代又來了這個法律剛通過還不到幾小時我也可以在這裡大膽的預測啊王逸川是第一個會被調來國會問訊的人下一個可能是李政浩第三個可能是于北辰接下來黃世聰以及劉寶潔五位可能都有機會您知道我為什麼點名這五位嗎"},{"start":291.516,"end":303.828,"text":"因為這五位啊電視上常常在評論中國時事跟經濟的名嘴啊或是政治評論家就在中國5月15號國台辦已經公布的懲戒名單裡頭所以呢這樣的修法這樣的一個裡應外合"},{"start":310.821,"end":339.052,"text":"國會特徵組國會擴權讓立法院可以成為一權分立一權獨大剛剛我們召委說我們成了一權國家其實這個一權國家獨大的是立法院昨天通過的這些國會擴權的二法就會形成台灣只剩下一個立法權他可以凌駕行政權他可以凌駕監察權可以凌駕司法權"},{"start":341.365,"end":370.504,"text":"所以呢我要再次說請大家要自制啊一個法律剛上路都對不起它還沒有上路連三讀的文字哩哩啦啦還有一堆文字的缺漏扯出來的包都還不知道怎麼來收拾居然就說要鎖定王逸川就要叫來成為國會第一個被問話被問訊的人這就是在野黨遂行了政治肅殺的政治目的不是嗎"},{"start":371.687,"end":374.26,"text":"不演了!完全不演了!"},{"start":375.265,"end":404.252,"text":"所以呢我是覺得很遺憾我請司法院秘書長在這裡因為這個法律通過二三讀之後監察院很快的就公布了一個新聞的聲明監察院認為立法院的擴權嚴重的傷害了監察權那違反了憲法的院紀之間憲法機關之間的權力分立的原則那其實同樣的我們在座的兩位在台上的兩位司法權"},{"start":404.872,"end":405.012,"text":"司法院的立場．"},{"start":424.835,"end":427.317,"text":"先上車後補票先開刀再麻醉就是現在的狀況"},{"start":452.898,"end":462.811,"text":"再也黨先修法讓自己國會擴了權取代了監察權取代了司法權然後呢再來說我們下一步來廢考監來修憲"},{"start":465.516,"end":477.722,"text":"這民進黨早就在這一個場域司法法制委員會我已經講了N次我講了N次如果要修憲就修憲不能夠用修法來凌駕修憲在野黨現在是先修法讓國會擴權然後回過來說我們現在來推動廢監察院的修憲案"},{"start":491.844,"end":513.177,"text":"這就是先上車再後補再補票啊這就是醫生要開刀先給你開了刀再來麻醉啊秘書長我的說法正確嗎就憲政分立的原則有先擴大了立法的權限然後再來說我要來廢掉監察院嗎這是監察院昨天的聲明裡頭清楚的闡述的立場秘書第5"},{"start":517.25,"end":542.248,"text":"那這個問題 林董簡單可以回答吧該修憲是不是就修憲 絕對不能先修法之後再回頭來去修憲 先上車後補票 很簡單的問題藐視國會罪還沒有總統公告 你不用害怕 就回答 據實以答沒有關係針對多元的社會 我們尊重委員的說法"},{"start":543.502,"end":556.93,"text":"所以尊重立法委員胡說八道尊重立法委員胡亂修法這就是藐視國會最最嚴重的地方翁曉琳委員說的上對下的關係我要跟大家說"},{"start":558.342,"end":582.307,"text":"他應驗了翁小玲說的上對下的關係在這一次的國會擴權的修法完全應驗了因為民選總統可以被叫來立法院即問即答國情報告改為常態化這就是太上立院上對下對民選總統擁有最高民意基礎的總統立法院可以這樣對待他"},{"start":583.584,"end":593.148,"text":"第二個上對下就是利用藐視國會罪這樣子的荒誕制度的設計讓你們行政官員每一個人都噤聲每一個人成為乖乖牌每一個人不敢言所當言為所當為然後真的成為質詢就是上對下因為有藐視國會罪你都不敢說話啦"},{"start":605.768,"end":621.784,"text":"第三個上對下就是最殘暴的一個太上國會可以把人民動輒的叫來立法院要你提供資料就提供資料要你來問話就問話把人民的人權踩在腳底這就是上對下"},{"start":622.685,"end":641.621,"text":"翁曉琳說的都靈驗了都應驗了剛剛吳宗憲、張偉說如果王逸川說的手機定位是侵害個人資料保護法那麼昨天剛修過的國會擴權的法案可以要求人民繳出一切你要的資料你要來這裡應訊問話連找律師都要主席同意"},{"start":649.958,"end":671.574,"text":"個人資料保護法吳宗憲你敢說啊你們這種違憲亂證的修法有把個人資料保護法有把人權放在眼裡嗎如果你們對於王逸川的言論如此認為不可我當然也認為王逸川的講話不夠精準"},{"start":672.492,"end":693.152,"text":"但是如果要用同樣的標準一個去識別化的資料都要被你們無限上綱稱為侵害人權違反個資那麼即將上路的國會擴權法案把人民叫來立法院必須提供一切的資料"},{"start":694.711,"end":708.212,"text":"這沒有侵害人權嗎?實在很抱歉我今天的主題其實準備很多那只好下一次再針對我們的司法精神醫療體系就教於兩位但是我們站在這裡這個現正時刻"},{"start":710.695,"end":710.715,"text":"吳思瑤議員"},{"start":726.178,"end":751.823,"text":"但是針對基本該有的憲政精神的捍衛對於我們司法獨立的捍衛對於人權的捍衛我們都要繼續言所當言、為所當為否則一個不敢講話的國會殿堂這是什麼民主只有立委可以在這裡無地放矢官員不能表述"},{"start":753.43,"end":768.428,"text":"我認為這是民主倒退的一刻我在這裡還是期勉大家藐視國會罪民主進步黨會提出釋憲案我們也很有把握希望憲法法庭可以做出一個合憲的一個判決"},{"start":770.151,"end":770.231,"text":"謝謝吳思瑤委員"}]}}}}