{"id":153256,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153256","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331f30038bf1ea5877dde1b7f2d659cc489a3ee6acdf2d5e987c1cb33d534d520845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"11:06:58 - 11:16:07","影片長度":"00:09:09","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":549,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-20"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T11:16:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T11:06:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":609,"blocks":[["丁委員學忠：（11時7分）感謝主席，主席，我請部長。"],["主席：有請劉部長。"],["丁委員學忠：部長好。"],["劉部長世芳：丁委員好。"],["丁委員學忠：在前兩天我們新竹發生了高樓層的火災，我們損失了兩位英勇的消防人員，過去在林右昌前部長任內，我一再提醒消防人員的權益跟安全保障的重要性，現在我也是一樣對部長再繼續提醒一下。從這件火災我們有看到消防人員努力的救災，所以沒有住戶傷亡，根據目前的瞭解，是地下室的電纜燃燒產生黑煙，造成在進行搜救的兩位消防人員因為面罩被黑煙影響視線而失去方向感，最後走不出來然後氣瓶耗盡而不幸殉職，這個遺憾的事情讓人非常的關心，我們消防人員的設備是不是要即時來更新？"],["劉部長世芳：是，先感謝丁委員的關心，我也感到非常的不捨跟遺憾，未來我們要做怎麼樣的檢討跟改進，其實很多委員都有垂詢到，包括能不能提供更好的科技救災方式，在我們確定火場裡面並沒有需要救助者的時候，那我們的消防員就不要急著衝進去，否則因為空間迷失或是在一片煙霧彌漫、有毒煙散布的狀況之下，最後沒有辦法生還，對這一點我們感到非常的遺憾，也是我們必須要檢討的地方。"],["丁委員學忠：感謝部長，這就是我們未來要討論的問題，對於高樓層的火災，有可能我們打火兄弟的經驗比較少，所以進入高樓層的火場滅火的風險會增加，我們消防人員的氣瓶一次好像是維持20分鐘，但是面對高樓層的火場，氣瓶只有20分鐘的時間，這樣絕對是不夠的，是不是可以進行更新或者是用更高容量的氣瓶來替換？還有，無線電的通訊設備不管本來有沒有故障，在高樓層的火災中，因為火場裡面的高溫度有可能影響到無線電器材的使用，在這個環境的長期效果，跟指揮中心進行溝通有可能產生不良的效果，造成通訊的問題，而面罩又因為被灰燼或焦油影響到，造成視線不清，沒辦法判斷方向，所以是否有設備提升的可能性？這幾項我們都可以即刻來檢討，如果可以趕快找出問題以及更快更新我們這些設備，對我們消防人員的保護才是最重要的，部長是否同意這部分？"],["劉部長世芳：感謝丁委員，你的觀察、說法都非常正確，我們會來檢討、改進，有一部分需要補充的地方，我請蕭署長跟丁委員補充說明幾秒鐘好嗎？"],["丁委員學忠：好。"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝委員。高層建築物的設備是要靠建築物的自動撒水設備跟安全管理這個區塊來處理，當然這個案例我們會整個跟國土署共同來檢討看怎麼來強化，建築物由業者來負責這個區塊。跟委員報告，上禮拜院長剛批准了消防人員個別的裝備器材補充，差不多十九億多的經費，這個部分部長有交代要跟第一線同仁溝通，看第一線同仁需要補充什麼設備，目前剛核准，正在討論看怎麼樣能夠真正符合縣市第一線同仁救災的需求，我一併跟委員報告。","至於氣瓶容量要不要增加，這個會牽涉到我們的訓練跟裝備的負荷，而且曾經某些國家用過，結果重心不穩，反而不見得是好事，所以這個運作的模式我們整個檢討之後，看什麼方式對救災人員是有幫助的，然後以這個方式來處理，跟委員做個報告，謝謝。"],["丁委員學忠：這部分我們消防署可能要更費心一點，再麻煩你們。現代的火場一些建築物的狀況都比較複雜，傳統一般的設備能否應付火場現場情形？這就是我們現在要來討論的問題，看有沒有高科技的輔助設備能夠更快更新，讓我們消防人員能夠得到更好的保障，麻煩署長跟部長再費心一點。","再來就是國土計畫法，我要提醒部長，我們的國土計畫法依據我們的法令內容在明年4月30日就要開始實施，之前林部長在卸任前在這個委員會沒有進一步的討論，之前經過我們各縣市先報上來的，我們明年到底能否執行？部長，你覺得明年我們能夠執行這個國土計畫法嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：感謝丁委員的關心，很多委員都在關心國土計畫法是不是在明年4月30日可以完成，然後對外全面來公布，我剛剛在回答很多委員的想法跟說法的時候有特別提到，有些是贊成的，但是有些是不同意的，有很多不同的理由，我在想第一個可能我們有溝通不足的地方，所以我們要在凝聚共識之後才會審慎來進行，在凝聚共識之前，我們必須瞭解每一個人所提到、他們在乎的是什麼項目，不是只有一句，譬如說，雲林縣縣長也提到暫緩實施，臺中市長盧秀燕也說暫緩實施，新北市長告訴我說，他們比較有疑慮，希望能夠多溝通，但是他沒有告訴我疑慮是什麼，所以我想是不是分批再跟每個縣市政府討論清楚之後，需要按照原來的計畫來執行，我們就按照原來的計畫，如果沒辦法按照原來的計畫，是不是可以按照行政程序，縣市、縣市個別分開？或者是不同的聚落，或是不同的地區分開來執行，這樣有助於它的推動，畢竟國土計畫法我們已經講了十幾、二十年以上，如果沒有推動的話，對未來臺灣整體的國土規劃還是會有影響。"],["丁委員學忠：抱歉，報告主席，請給我一點時間。在這裡跟部長說明一下，根據我們目前的規劃，我們雲林縣農一、農二的農地規劃面積總共有八萬七千多公頃，農一、農二這些農地占我們全縣面積比例差不多有三分之二的土地，這個比例是全國排名第二，我們的國土計畫將我們雲林縣一大部分劃為農業用地，還要求、限制不能變動，要求農民農地只能農用，沒有配套措施也不能隨便來變更，違規使用還有罰則，限制我們農民對土地使用的方式，我們政府要雲林來負擔全國的糧食安全，農地農用特別應該要有一個相應的補償，才能確保我們農民的權利，我簡單跟部長說明目前雲林縣面對的問題就是這樣，再請部長跟雲林縣政府張麗善縣長繼續討論一下，再麻煩一下，感謝。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，其實我們跟每一個縣市政府都有定期開會，我想這個部分我們會繼續跟縣政府他們研究看看要怎麼處理。"],["丁委員學忠：感謝部長、感謝署長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝丁學忠委員、謝謝部長、謝謝署長。繼續請徐欣瑩委員。徐欣瑩委員質詢結束後我們來處理臨時提案，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-20","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","許宇甄","牛煦庭","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","黃建賓","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra 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\"end\": 455.605, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 455.605, \"end\": 455.625, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"率\", \"start\": 455.625, \"end\": 455.645, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 455.645, \"end\": 455.745, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"搬\", \"start\": 455.745, \"end\": 455.786, \"score\": 0.295}, {\"word\": \"運\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 455.786, \"end\": 455.806, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 455.806, \"end\": 455.826, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 455.826, \"end\": 455.946, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 455.946, \"end\": 455.966, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"：\"}, {\"word\": \"丁\", \"start\": 481.385, \"end\": 481.445, \"score\": 0.529}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 481.445, \"end\": 481.465, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"忠\", \"start\": 481.465, \"end\": 481.485, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"感\", \"start\": 511.645, \"end\": 512.386, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 512.386, \"end\": 512.406, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"﹚\"}, {\"word\": \"丁\", \"start\": 537.208, \"end\": 537.228, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 537.228, \"end\": 537.348, \"score\": 0.73}, {\"word\": \"忠\", \"start\": 537.348, \"end\": 537.369, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 537.369, \"end\": 537.389, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"en\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,257 --> 00:00:07,220\n感 謝 主 席 主 席 我 請 我 們 的 部 長 有 請 內 部 長 部 長 好 丁 委 員 好\n\n2\n00:00:15,114 --> 00:00:17,195\n在 這 兩 天 , 我 們 發 生 了 高 戰 勞 的 災 禍 ﹖ 我 們 選 擇 了 兩 位 應 用 的 消 防 人 員 ﹖ 在 這 , 過 去 我 們 的 林 立 昌 副 長 ﹖ 他 的 領 帶 我 一 直 提 醒 我 們 消 防 人 員 的 權 益 ﹖ 和 我 們 的 安 全\n\n3\n00:00:34,366 --> 00:00:34,626\n委 員 會 主 席\n\n4\n00:00:54,764 --> 00:01:00,189\n藍 燒 產 生 黑 煙 , 造 成 對 於 你 所 救 的 兩 位 消 防 人 員 ： 因 爲 那 個 面 罩 叫 O N ： 影 響 到 , 影 響 到 誰 ： 失 去 到 這 個 風 險 感 , 做 要 驚 慌 出 來 ： 或 是 這 個 氣 氛 耗 盡 ： 復 興 來 殉 職 ： 這 個 遺 憾 的 事 情 , 讓 人 是 非 常 關 心 的 ： 我 們 想 另 外 的 事 情 , 是 不 是 要 及 時 來 更 新\n\n5\n00:01:22,471 --> 00:01:44,768\n先 感 謝 丁 委 員 的 關 心 , 我 也 覺 得 非 常 不 捨 跟 遺 憾 那 未 來 我 們 在 做 怎 麼 樣 的 檢 討 跟 改 進 的 話 其 實 很 多 委 員 都 有 垂 詢 到 包 括 說 能 不 能 提 供 更 好 的 科 技 救 災 的 方 式 在 我 們 確 定 火 場 裡 面 並 沒 有 要 救 助 的 人 的 時 候 那 我 們 的 消 防 員 不 要 急 著 衝 進 去 裡 面\n\n6\n00:01:46,049 --> 00:01:47,370\n這 就 是 我 們 未 來 我 們 要 來 討 論 的 一 個 問 題 我 們 這 個 高 漲 樓 的 火 災 有 可 能 我 們 看 回 後 面 的 經 驗\n\n7\n00:02:06,565 --> 00:02:08,726\n所 謂 進 入 我 們 這 個 國 戰 樓 的 規 定 ． 來 發 會 ． 風 險 會 更 加 健 康 ． 我 們 消 防 人 員 的 ． 評 ． 一 屆 的 拉 球 是 維 持 2 0 分 鐘 ． 但 是 面 對 我 們 這 個 國 戰 樓 的 規 定 ． 現 在 這 個 ． 評 ． 2 0 分 鐘 的 時 間 ． 是 絕 對 是 不 夠 的 ．\n\n8\n00:02:32,193 --> 00:02:32,613\n主 席\n\n9\n00:02:59,198 --> 00:03:01,560\n我 們 要 跟 指 揮 中 心 進 行 溝 通 , 讓 他 們 有 可 能 產 生 負 流 , 來 作 出 通 訊 問 題 。 面 對 恢 復 或 交 流 的 影 響 , 作 出 視 線 不 清 。\n\n10\n00:03:18,792 --> 00:03:24,736\n沒 有 辦 法 判 斷 方 向 ： 有 辦 法 我 們 設 計 提 升 可 能 性 ： 這 幾 項 我 們 都 可 以 即 刻 來 檢 討 ： 還 可 以 更 好 找 出 問 題 ： 更 好 更 新 更 快 更 新 社 會 ： 對 消 防 領 域 的 保 護 這 是 最 重 要 ： 否 則 這 樣 是 有 動 益\n\n11\n00:03:42,049 --> 00:03:51,393\n感 謝 丁 委 員 ： 你 的 觀 察 ： 跟 你 的 講 法 都 非 常 正 確 ： 我 們 來 檢 討 和 改 善 ： 是 有 一 部 分 要 補 充 的 地 方 ： 我 請 我 們 蕭 書 長 跟 丁 委 員 稍 補 充 ： 是 感 謝 委 員 ： 建 築 部 高 層 建 築 物 的 設 備 是 要 靠 建 築 部 本 身 的 自 動 灑 水 設 備 跟 安 全 管 理 這 個 區 塊 來 處 理 當 然 這 個 案 例 我 們 會 整 個 來 跟 國 土 事 務 共 同 來 檢 討 看 怎 麼 來 強 化\n\n12\n00:04:08,380 --> 00:04:26,385\n． 建 築 由 業 者 來 負 責 區 塊 ． 當 天 委 員 部 說 當 天 白 營 頂 多 賠 一 個 ． 就 是 消 防 局 個 別 裝 備 的 器 材 補 充 ． 差 不 多 有 1 9 億 多 的 經 費 ． 那 這 個 部 分 我 部 長 有 交 代 說 ． 要 跟 地 線 統 領 ． 到 底 地 線 統 領 需 要 補 什 麼 設 備 ． 這 當 地 多 鎮 而 已 ． 當 地 統 領 要 看 什 麼\n\n13\n00:04:30,866 --> 00:04:46,496\n真 的 能 夠 符 合 縣 市 第 一 線 同 仁 救 災 的 需 求 , 我 給 議 員 跟 委 員 報 告 那 氣 頻 要 不 要 容 量 要 不 要 增 加 , 這 個 會 牽 涉 到 我 們 的 訓 練 跟 裝 備 的 複 合 而 且 曾 經 某 些 國 家 用 過 , 結 果 重 心 沒 穩 , 點 頭 不 見 的 是 好 事\n\n14\n00:04:49,878 --> 00:04:53,901\n這 個 運 作 的 模 式 我 們 幾 個 月 檢 討 了 什 麼 方 式 ： 對 救 災 人 員 是 有 幫 助 的 ： 這 個 方 式 來 處 理 ： 這 個 過 分 可 能 我 們 像 宿 舍 要 比 較 費 心 一 點 ： 再 麻 煩 您 現 在 現 代 我 們 這 個 火 條\n\n15\n00:05:04,386 --> 00:05:04,406\n： 丁\n\n16\n00:05:32,381 --> 00:05:32,422\n國 土 計 劃 法\n\n17\n00:05:38,817 --> 00:05:43,018\n提 醒 國 土 計 劃 法 以 及 法 律 內 容 每 年 4 月 3 0 日 開 始 實 施 。 進 行 林 副 長 下 令 進 行 , 但 委 員 會 沒 有 進 行 討 論 。 進 行 經 過 國 管 局 申 告 後 , 每 年 可 以 接 行 或 不 可 以 接 行 。\n\n18\n00:06:05,060 --> 00:06:08,663\n國 土 計 劃 法 是 不 是 在 明 年 4 月 3 0 號 的 時 候 呢 可 以 完 成 然 後 對 外 全 面 來 公 佈\n\n19\n00:06:21,015 --> 00:06:21,215\n沈 淑 芬 議 員\n\n20\n00:06:38,740 --> 00:06:52,949\n但 是 在 你 一 句 共 識 之 前 我 們 必 須 要 了 解 說 每 一 個 人 他 們 所 提 到 他 們 在 乎 的 是 什 麼 項 目 不 是 只 有 一 句 譬 如 說 雲 林 縣 政 府 向 縣 長 也 提 到 說 暫 緩 實 施 那 盧 秀 燕 市 長 臺 中 市 長 也 說 暫 緩 實 施 那 這 個 新 北 市 長 告 訴 我 說 他 們 比 較 疑 慮 希 望 能 夠 多 溝 通 但 是 疑 慮 是 什 麼 他 沒 有 告 訴 我 疑 慮 是 什 麼 所 以 我 想 說 是 不 是 趕 快 關 起 政 府 這 分 配 我 們 再 討 論 清 楚 之 後\n\n21\n00:07:08,038 --> 00:07:28,942\n按 照 原 來 的 計 劃 來 執 行 按 照 原 來 的 計 劃 按 照 行 政 程 序 縣 市 縣 市 各 別 分 開 或 者 是 不 同 的 聚 落 或 是 不 同 的 地 區 分 開 來 執 行 這 樣 子 有 助 於 他 推 動 因 為 畢 竟 國 土 計 劃 法 我 們 已 經 講 了 十 幾 二 十 年 以 上 如 果 沒 有 推 動 的 話 對 未 來 台 灣 的 整 體 的 國 土 規 劃 還 是 會 有 影 響\n\n22\n00:07:32,543 --> 00:07:35,966\n是 抱 歉 發 佈 主 席 給 我 一 點 時 間 在 這 裏 補 充 給 你 說 明 一 下 經 濟 我 們 附 近 的 區 域 我 們 婦 人 館 的 農 藥 農 藥 的 農 地 區 域 的 運 輸 都 總 有 幾 萬 七 千 幾 公 頃 這 裏 的 農 藥 農 藥 將 我 們 全 國 運 輸 基 率 差 不 多 有 三 分 之 二 的 土 地 這 個 基 率 全 國 搬 運 是 第 二 的\n\n23\n00:08:01,385 --> 00:08:01,485\n： 丁 學 忠\n\n24\n00:08:31,645 --> 00:08:32,406\n感 謝 委 員 ﹚\n\n25\n00:08:57,208 --> 00:08:57,389\n丁 學 忠 委 員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3257\t7220\t感謝主席 主席我請我們的部長有請內部長部長好丁委員好\n15114\t17195\t在這兩天,我們發生了高戰勞的災禍﹖我們選擇了兩位應用的消防人員﹖在這,過去我們的林立昌副長﹖他的領帶我一直提醒我們消防人員的權益﹖和我們的安全\n34366\t34626\t委員會主席\n54764\t60189\t藍燒產生黑煙,造成對於你所救的兩位消防人員：因爲那個面罩叫ON：影響到,影響到誰：失去到這個風險感,做要驚慌出來：或是這個氣氛耗盡：復興來殉職：這個遺憾的事情,讓人是非常關心的：我們想另外的事情,是不是要及時來更新\n82471\t104768\t先感謝丁委員的關心,我也覺得非常不捨跟遺憾那未來我們在做怎麼樣的檢討跟改進的話其實很多委員都有垂詢到包括說能不能提供更好的科技救災的方式在我們確定火場裡面並沒有要救助的人的時候那我們的消防員不要急著衝進去裡面\n106049\t107370\t這就是我們未來我們要來討論的一個問題我們這個高漲樓的火災有可能我們看回後面的經驗\n126565\t128726\t所謂進入我們這個國戰樓的規定．來發會．風險會更加健康．我們消防人員的．評．一屆的拉球是維持20分鐘．但是面對我們這個國戰樓的規定．現在這個．評．20分鐘的時間．是絕對是不夠的．\n152193\t152613\t主席\n179198\t181560\t我們要跟指揮中心進行溝通,讓他們有可能產生負流,來作出通訊問題。 面對恢復或交流的影響,作出視線不清。\n198792\t204736\t沒有辦法判斷方向：有辦法我們設計提升可能性：這幾項我們都可以即刻來檢討：還可以更好找出問題：更好更新更快更新社會：對消防領域的保護這是最重要：否則這樣是有動益\n222049\t231393\t感謝丁委員：你的觀察：跟你的講法都非常正確：我們來檢討和改善：是有一部分要補充的地方：我請我們蕭書長跟丁委員稍補充：是感謝委員：建築部高層建築物的設備是要靠建築部本身的自動灑水設備跟安全管理這個區塊來處理當然這個案例我們會整個來跟國土事務共同來檢討看怎麼來強化\n248380\t266385\t．建築由業者來負責區塊．當天委員部說當天白營頂多賠一個．就是消防局個別裝備的器材補充．差不多有19億多的經費．那這個部分我部長有交代說．要跟地線統領．到底地線統領需要補什麼設備．這當地多鎮而已．當地統領要看什麼\n270866\t286496\t真的能夠符合縣市第一線同仁救災的需求,我給議員跟委員報告那氣頻要不要容量要不要增加,這個會牽涉到我們的訓練跟裝備的複合而且曾經某些國家用過,結果重心沒穩,點頭不見的是好事\n289878\t293901\t這個運作的模式我們幾個月檢討了什麼方式：對救災人員是有幫助的：這個方式來處理：這個過分可能我們像宿舍要比較費心一點：再麻煩您現在現代我們這個火條\n304386\t304406\t：丁\n332381\t332422\t國土計劃法\n338817\t343018\t提醒國土計劃法以及法律內容每年4月30日開始實施。進行林副長下令進行,但委員會沒有進行討論。進行經過國管局申告後,每年可以接行或不可以接行。\n365060\t368663\t國土計劃法是不是在明年4月30號的時候呢可以完成然後對外全面來公佈\n381015\t381215\t沈淑芬議員\n398740\t412949\t但是在你一句共識之前我們必須要了解說每一個人他們所提到他們在乎的是什麼項目不是只有一句譬如說雲林縣政府向縣長也提到說暫緩實施那盧秀燕市長臺中市長也說暫緩實施那這個新北市長告訴我說他們比較疑慮希望能夠多溝通但是疑慮是什麼他沒有告訴我疑慮是什麼所以我想說是不是趕快關起政府這分配我們再討論清楚之後\n428038\t448942\t按照原來的計劃來執行 按照原來的計劃 按照行政程序 縣市縣市各別分開 或者是不同的聚落或是不同的地區分開來執行 這樣子有助於他推動 因為畢竟國土計劃法我們已經講了十幾二十年以上 如果沒有推動的話對未來台灣的整體的國土規劃還是會有影響\n452543\t455966\t是 抱歉 發佈主席給我一點時間在這裏補充 給你說明一下經濟我們附近的區域 我們婦人館的農藥 農藥的農地區域的運輸都總有幾萬七千幾公頃這裏的農藥 農藥 將我們全國運輸基率差不多有三分之二的土地這個基率全國搬運是第二的\n481385\t481485\t：丁學忠\n511645\t512406\t感謝委員﹚\n537208\t537389\t丁學忠委員\n","txt":"感謝主席 主席我請我們的部長有請內部長部長好丁委員好\n在這兩天,我們發生了高戰勞的災禍﹖我們選擇了兩位應用的消防人員﹖在這,過去我們的林立昌副長﹖他的領帶我一直提醒我們消防人員的權益﹖和我們的安全\n委員會主席\n藍燒產生黑煙,造成對於你所救的兩位消防人員：因爲那個面罩叫ON：影響到,影響到誰：失去到這個風險感,做要驚慌出來：或是這個氣氛耗盡：復興來殉職：這個遺憾的事情,讓人是非常關心的：我們想另外的事情,是不是要及時來更新\n先感謝丁委員的關心,我也覺得非常不捨跟遺憾那未來我們在做怎麼樣的檢討跟改進的話其實很多委員都有垂詢到包括說能不能提供更好的科技救災的方式在我們確定火場裡面並沒有要救助的人的時候那我們的消防員不要急著衝進去裡面\n這就是我們未來我們要來討論的一個問題我們這個高漲樓的火災有可能我們看回後面的經驗\n所謂進入我們這個國戰樓的規定．來發會．風險會更加健康．我們消防人員的．評．一屆的拉球是維持20分鐘．但是面對我們這個國戰樓的規定．現在這個．評．20分鐘的時間．是絕對是不夠的．\n主席\n我們要跟指揮中心進行溝通,讓他們有可能產生負流,來作出通訊問題。 面對恢復或交流的影響,作出視線不清。\n沒有辦法判斷方向：有辦法我們設計提升可能性：這幾項我們都可以即刻來檢討：還可以更好找出問題：更好更新更快更新社會：對消防領域的保護這是最重要：否則這樣是有動益\n感謝丁委員：你的觀察：跟你的講法都非常正確：我們來檢討和改善：是有一部分要補充的地方：我請我們蕭書長跟丁委員稍補充：是感謝委員：建築部高層建築物的設備是要靠建築部本身的自動灑水設備跟安全管理這個區塊來處理當然這個案例我們會整個來跟國土事務共同來檢討看怎麼來強化\n．建築由業者來負責區塊．當天委員部說當天白營頂多賠一個．就是消防局個別裝備的器材補充．差不多有19億多的經費．那這個部分我部長有交代說．要跟地線統領．到底地線統領需要補什麼設備．這當地多鎮而已．當地統領要看什麼\n真的能夠符合縣市第一線同仁救災的需求,我給議員跟委員報告那氣頻要不要容量要不要增加,這個會牽涉到我們的訓練跟裝備的複合而且曾經某些國家用過,結果重心沒穩,點頭不見的是好事\n這個運作的模式我們幾個月檢討了什麼方式：對救災人員是有幫助的：這個方式來處理：這個過分可能我們像宿舍要比較費心一點：再麻煩您現在現代我們這個火條\n：丁\n國土計劃法\n提醒國土計劃法以及法律內容每年4月30日開始實施。進行林副長下令進行,但委員會沒有進行討論。進行經過國管局申告後,每年可以接行或不可以接行。\n國土計劃法是不是在明年4月30號的時候呢可以完成然後對外全面來公佈\n沈淑芬議員\n但是在你一句共識之前我們必須要了解說每一個人他們所提到他們在乎的是什麼項目不是只有一句譬如說雲林縣政府向縣長也提到說暫緩實施那盧秀燕市長臺中市長也說暫緩實施那這個新北市長告訴我說他們比較疑慮希望能夠多溝通但是疑慮是什麼他沒有告訴我疑慮是什麼所以我想說是不是趕快關起政府這分配我們再討論清楚之後\n按照原來的計劃來執行 按照原來的計劃 按照行政程序 縣市縣市各別分開 或者是不同的聚落或是不同的地區分開來執行 這樣子有助於他推動 因為畢竟國土計劃法我們已經講了十幾二十年以上 如果沒有推動的話對未來台灣的整體的國土規劃還是會有影響\n是 抱歉 發佈主席給我一點時間在這裏補充 給你說明一下經濟我們附近的區域 我們婦人館的農藥 農藥的農地區域的運輸都總有幾萬七千幾公頃這裏的農藥 農藥 將我們全國運輸基率差不多有三分之二的土地這個基率全國搬運是第二的\n：丁學忠\n感謝委員﹚\n丁學忠委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.257 --> 00:07.220\n感 謝 主 席 主 席 我 請 我 們 的 部 長 有 請 內 部 長 部 長 好 丁 委 員 好\n\n00:15.114 --> 00:17.195\n在 這 兩 天 , 我 們 發 生 了 高 戰 勞 的 災 禍 ﹖ 我 們 選 擇 了 兩 位 應 用 的 消 防 人 員 ﹖ 在 這 , 過 去 我 們 的 林 立 昌 副 長 ﹖ 他 的 領 帶 我 一 直 提 醒 我 們 消 防 人 員 的 權 益 ﹖ 和 我 們 的 安 全\n\n00:34.366 --> 00:34.626\n委 員 會 主 席\n\n00:54.764 --> 01:00.189\n藍 燒 產 生 黑 煙 , 造 成 對 於 你 所 救 的 兩 位 消 防 人 員 ： 因 爲 那 個 面 罩 叫 O N ： 影 響 到 , 影 響 到 誰 ： 失 去 到 這 個 風 險 感 , 做 要 驚 慌 出 來 ： 或 是 這 個 氣 氛 耗 盡 ： 復 興 來 殉 職 ： 這 個 遺 憾 的 事 情 , 讓 人 是 非 常 關 心 的 ： 我 們 想 另 外 的 事 情 , 是 不 是 要 及 時 來 更 新\n\n01:22.471 --> 01:44.768\n先 感 謝 丁 委 員 的 關 心 , 我 也 覺 得 非 常 不 捨 跟 遺 憾 那 未 來 我 們 在 做 怎 麼 樣 的 檢 討 跟 改 進 的 話 其 實 很 多 委 員 都 有 垂 詢 到 包 括 說 能 不 能 提 供 更 好 的 科 技 救 災 的 方 式 在 我 們 確 定 火 場 裡 面 並 沒 有 要 救 助 的 人 的 時 候 那 我 們 的 消 防 員 不 要 急 著 衝 進 去 裡 面\n\n01:46.049 --> 01:47.370\n這 就 是 我 們 未 來 我 們 要 來 討 論 的 一 個 問 題 我 們 這 個 高 漲 樓 的 火 災 有 可 能 我 們 看 回 後 面 的 經 驗\n\n02:06.565 --> 02:08.726\n所 謂 進 入 我 們 這 個 國 戰 樓 的 規 定 ． 來 發 會 ． 風 險 會 更 加 健 康 ． 我 們 消 防 人 員 的 ． 評 ． 一 屆 的 拉 球 是 維 持 2 0 分 鐘 ． 但 是 面 對 我 們 這 個 國 戰 樓 的 規 定 ． 現 在 這 個 ． 評 ． 2 0 分 鐘 的 時 間 ． 是 絕 對 是 不 夠 的 ．\n\n02:32.193 --> 02:32.613\n主 席\n\n02:59.198 --> 03:01.560\n我 們 要 跟 指 揮 中 心 進 行 溝 通 , 讓 他 們 有 可 能 產 生 負 流 , 來 作 出 通 訊 問 題 。 面 對 恢 復 或 交 流 的 影 響 , 作 出 視 線 不 清 。\n\n03:18.792 --> 03:24.736\n沒 有 辦 法 判 斷 方 向 ： 有 辦 法 我 們 設 計 提 升 可 能 性 ： 這 幾 項 我 們 都 可 以 即 刻 來 檢 討 ： 還 可 以 更 好 找 出 問 題 ： 更 好 更 新 更 快 更 新 社 會 ： 對 消 防 領 域 的 保 護 這 是 最 重 要 ： 否 則 這 樣 是 有 動 益\n\n03:42.049 --> 03:51.393\n感 謝 丁 委 員 ： 你 的 觀 察 ： 跟 你 的 講 法 都 非 常 正 確 ： 我 們 來 檢 討 和 改 善 ： 是 有 一 部 分 要 補 充 的 地 方 ： 我 請 我 們 蕭 書 長 跟 丁 委 員 稍 補 充 ： 是 感 謝 委 員 ： 建 築 部 高 層 建 築 物 的 設 備 是 要 靠 建 築 部 本 身 的 自 動 灑 水 設 備 跟 安 全 管 理 這 個 區 塊 來 處 理 當 然 這 個 案 例 我 們 會 整 個 來 跟 國 土 事 務 共 同 來 檢 討 看 怎 麼 來 強 化\n\n04:08.380 --> 04:26.385\n． 建 築 由 業 者 來 負 責 區 塊 ． 當 天 委 員 部 說 當 天 白 營 頂 多 賠 一 個 ． 就 是 消 防 局 個 別 裝 備 的 器 材 補 充 ． 差 不 多 有 1 9 億 多 的 經 費 ． 那 這 個 部 分 我 部 長 有 交 代 說 ． 要 跟 地 線 統 領 ． 到 底 地 線 統 領 需 要 補 什 麼 設 備 ． 這 當 地 多 鎮 而 已 ． 當 地 統 領 要 看 什 麼\n\n04:30.866 --> 04:46.496\n真 的 能 夠 符 合 縣 市 第 一 線 同 仁 救 災 的 需 求 , 我 給 議 員 跟 委 員 報 告 那 氣 頻 要 不 要 容 量 要 不 要 增 加 , 這 個 會 牽 涉 到 我 們 的 訓 練 跟 裝 備 的 複 合 而 且 曾 經 某 些 國 家 用 過 , 結 果 重 心 沒 穩 , 點 頭 不 見 的 是 好 事\n\n04:49.878 --> 04:53.901\n這 個 運 作 的 模 式 我 們 幾 個 月 檢 討 了 什 麼 方 式 ： 對 救 災 人 員 是 有 幫 助 的 ： 這 個 方 式 來 處 理 ： 這 個 過 分 可 能 我 們 像 宿 舍 要 比 較 費 心 一 點 ： 再 麻 煩 您 現 在 現 代 我 們 這 個 火 條\n\n05:04.386 --> 05:04.406\n： 丁\n\n05:32.381 --> 05:32.422\n國 土 計 劃 法\n\n05:38.817 --> 05:43.018\n提 醒 國 土 計 劃 法 以 及 法 律 內 容 每 年 4 月 3 0 日 開 始 實 施 。 進 行 林 副 長 下 令 進 行 , 但 委 員 會 沒 有 進 行 討 論 。 進 行 經 過 國 管 局 申 告 後 , 每 年 可 以 接 行 或 不 可 以 接 行 。\n\n06:05.060 --> 06:08.663\n國 土 計 劃 法 是 不 是 在 明 年 4 月 3 0 號 的 時 候 呢 可 以 完 成 然 後 對 外 全 面 來 公 佈\n\n06:21.015 --> 06:21.215\n沈 淑 芬 議 員\n\n06:38.740 --> 06:52.949\n但 是 在 你 一 句 共 識 之 前 我 們 必 須 要 了 解 說 每 一 個 人 他 們 所 提 到 他 們 在 乎 的 是 什 麼 項 目 不 是 只 有 一 句 譬 如 說 雲 林 縣 政 府 向 縣 長 也 提 到 說 暫 緩 實 施 那 盧 秀 燕 市 長 臺 中 市 長 也 說 暫 緩 實 施 那 這 個 新 北 市 長 告 訴 我 說 他 們 比 較 疑 慮 希 望 能 夠 多 溝 通 但 是 疑 慮 是 什 麼 他 沒 有 告 訴 我 疑 慮 是 什 麼 所 以 我 想 說 是 不 是 趕 快 關 起 政 府 這 分 配 我 們 再 討 論 清 楚 之 後\n\n07:08.038 --> 07:28.942\n按 照 原 來 的 計 劃 來 執 行 按 照 原 來 的 計 劃 按 照 行 政 程 序 縣 市 縣 市 各 別 分 開 或 者 是 不 同 的 聚 落 或 是 不 同 的 地 區 分 開 來 執 行 這 樣 子 有 助 於 他 推 動 因 為 畢 竟 國 土 計 劃 法 我 們 已 經 講 了 十 幾 二 十 年 以 上 如 果 沒 有 推 動 的 話 對 未 來 台 灣 的 整 體 的 國 土 規 劃 還 是 會 有 影 響\n\n07:32.543 --> 07:35.966\n是 抱 歉 發 佈 主 席 給 我 一 點 時 間 在 這 裏 補 充 給 你 說 明 一 下 經 濟 我 們 附 近 的 區 域 我 們 婦 人 館 的 農 藥 農 藥 的 農 地 區 域 的 運 輸 都 總 有 幾 萬 七 千 幾 公 頃 這 裏 的 農 藥 農 藥 將 我 們 全 國 運 輸 基 率 差 不 多 有 三 分 之 二 的 土 地 這 個 基 率 全 國 搬 運 是 第 二 的\n\n08:01.385 --> 08:01.485\n： 丁 學 忠\n\n08:31.645 --> 08:32.406\n感 謝 委 員 ﹚\n\n08:57.208 --> 08:57.389\n丁 學 忠 委 員\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.257,"end":7.22,"text":"感謝主席 主席我請我們的部長有請內部長部長好丁委員好"},{"start":15.114,"end":17.195,"text":"在這兩天,我們發生了高戰勞的災禍﹖我們選擇了兩位應用的消防人員﹖在這,過去我們的林立昌副長﹖他的領帶我一直提醒我們消防人員的權益﹖和我們的安全"},{"start":34.366,"end":34.626,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":54.764,"end":60.189,"text":"藍燒產生黑煙,造成對於你所救的兩位消防人員：因爲那個面罩叫ON：影響到,影響到誰：失去到這個風險感,做要驚慌出來：或是這個氣氛耗盡：復興來殉職：這個遺憾的事情,讓人是非常關心的：我們想另外的事情,是不是要及時來更新"},{"start":82.471,"end":104.768,"text":"先感謝丁委員的關心,我也覺得非常不捨跟遺憾那未來我們在做怎麼樣的檢討跟改進的話其實很多委員都有垂詢到包括說能不能提供更好的科技救災的方式在我們確定火場裡面並沒有要救助的人的時候那我們的消防員不要急著衝進去裡面"},{"start":106.049,"end":107.37,"text":"這就是我們未來我們要來討論的一個問題我們這個高漲樓的火災有可能我們看回後面的經驗"},{"start":126.565,"end":128.726,"text":"所謂進入我們這個國戰樓的規定．來發會．風險會更加健康．我們消防人員的．評．一屆的拉球是維持20分鐘．但是面對我們這個國戰樓的規定．現在這個．評．20分鐘的時間．是絕對是不夠的．"},{"start":152.193,"end":152.613,"text":"主席"},{"start":179.198,"end":181.56,"text":"我們要跟指揮中心進行溝通,讓他們有可能產生負流,來作出通訊問題。 面對恢復或交流的影響,作出視線不清。"},{"start":198.792,"end":204.736,"text":"沒有辦法判斷方向：有辦法我們設計提升可能性：這幾項我們都可以即刻來檢討：還可以更好找出問題：更好更新更快更新社會：對消防領域的保護這是最重要：否則這樣是有動益"},{"start":222.049,"end":231.393,"text":"感謝丁委員：你的觀察：跟你的講法都非常正確：我們來檢討和改善：是有一部分要補充的地方：我請我們蕭書長跟丁委員稍補充：是感謝委員：建築部高層建築物的設備是要靠建築部本身的自動灑水設備跟安全管理這個區塊來處理當然這個案例我們會整個來跟國土事務共同來檢討看怎麼來強化"},{"start":248.38,"end":266.385,"text":"．建築由業者來負責區塊．當天委員部說當天白營頂多賠一個．就是消防局個別裝備的器材補充．差不多有19億多的經費．那這個部分我部長有交代說．要跟地線統領．到底地線統領需要補什麼設備．這當地多鎮而已．當地統領要看什麼"},{"start":270.866,"end":286.496,"text":"真的能夠符合縣市第一線同仁救災的需求,我給議員跟委員報告那氣頻要不要容量要不要增加,這個會牽涉到我們的訓練跟裝備的複合而且曾經某些國家用過,結果重心沒穩,點頭不見的是好事"},{"start":289.878,"end":293.901,"text":"這個運作的模式我們幾個月檢討了什麼方式：對救災人員是有幫助的：這個方式來處理：這個過分可能我們像宿舍要比較費心一點：再麻煩您現在現代我們這個火條"},{"start":304.386,"end":304.406,"text":"：丁"},{"start":332.381,"end":332.422,"text":"國土計劃法"},{"start":338.817,"end":343.018,"text":"提醒國土計劃法以及法律內容每年4月30日開始實施。進行林副長下令進行,但委員會沒有進行討論。進行經過國管局申告後,每年可以接行或不可以接行。"},{"start":365.06,"end":368.663,"text":"國土計劃法是不是在明年4月30號的時候呢可以完成然後對外全面來公佈"},{"start":381.015,"end":381.215,"text":"沈淑芬議員"},{"start":398.74,"end":412.949,"text":"但是在你一句共識之前我們必須要了解說每一個人他們所提到他們在乎的是什麼項目不是只有一句譬如說雲林縣政府向縣長也提到說暫緩實施那盧秀燕市長臺中市長也說暫緩實施那這個新北市長告訴我說他們比較疑慮希望能夠多溝通但是疑慮是什麼他沒有告訴我疑慮是什麼所以我想說是不是趕快關起政府這分配我們再討論清楚之後"},{"start":428.038,"end":448.942,"text":"按照原來的計劃來執行 按照原來的計劃 按照行政程序 縣市縣市各別分開 或者是不同的聚落或是不同的地區分開來執行 這樣子有助於他推動 因為畢竟國土計劃法我們已經講了十幾二十年以上 如果沒有推動的話對未來台灣的整體的國土規劃還是會有影響"},{"start":452.543,"end":455.966,"text":"是 抱歉 發佈主席給我一點時間在這裏補充 給你說明一下經濟我們附近的區域 我們婦人館的農藥 農藥的農地區域的運輸都總有幾萬七千幾公頃這裏的農藥 農藥 將我們全國運輸基率差不多有三分之二的土地這個基率全國搬運是第二的"},{"start":481.385,"end":481.485,"text":"：丁學忠"},{"start":511.645,"end":512.406,"text":"感謝委員﹚"},{"start":537.208,"end":537.389,"text":"丁學忠委員"}]}}}}